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#openttd IRC Logs for 2018-07-25

---Logopened Wed Jul 25 00:00:49 2018
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01:55<andythenorth>moin
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04:49<andythenorth>soof
04:49<andythenorth>petrochem economy in FIRS
04:49<andythenorth>would be great
04:49<V453000>dame
04:50<andythenorth>what if I deleted supplies?
04:50<andythenorth>and primaries needed specific inputs?
04:51<V453000>would definitely make for an intersting economy, but one of the benefits to the supplies is that it's kind of clear that they do that
04:51<andythenorth>yeah
04:51<andythenorth>so no frac sand then
04:52<andythenorth>and no POOP to arable farms
04:52<V453000>xd
04:52<andythenorth>but petrochem
04:52<andythenorth>'BTX' cargo
04:52<andythenorth>and other silly names
04:53<andythenorth>bbl
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04:55<Arveen>did i read poop cargo ?
04:55<V453000>haha
04:55<SpComb>no, it's fertilizer
04:56<Arveen>ah, ok then
05:00<FLHerne>I don't think having 64 railtypes on the current model would be sane...
05:01<FLHerne>(but then I don't think 64 cargos is sane, and that's being done)
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05:56<peter1138>Can you describe an alternative model?
05:57<andythenorth>it doesn't matter if it's sane :)
05:57<andythenorth>but eh
05:57<andythenorth>it's content, so the player retains the choice to *not use them*
05:57<andythenorth>I think we agonised too long about arbitrary restrictions on content
05:58<andythenorth>I can use Comic Sans on my Mac, even though Jobs was a vitriolic font nerd
05:58<SpComb>is there a "download and activate all" button in the bananas/newgrf UI? :)
05:58<andythenorth>boom
05:59<SpComb>download all the railsets!
05:59<SpComb>I remember seeing a screenshot of the resulting dropdown
06:03<peter1138>Probably posted by me.
06:03<peter1138>And probably caused the set authors to cry.
06:17<andythenorth>so 64 inputs and 64 outputs per industry? o_O
06:18<peter1138>Hmm, need to pick up that vehicle list stuff that was discussed a month or two ago.
06:20<andythenorth>oh that was nice
06:20<andythenorth>it will unleash all kinds of crazy
06:20<peter1138>Even that had arguments about what it was ;(
06:20<andythenorth>so many ways to use that for BAD FEATURES
06:20<andythenorth>it was the grouping IDs no?
06:21<andythenorth>and then [mumble mumble] about how auto-replace can work with that
06:21<andythenorth>wavey hands a bit, and all is well
06:22<peter1138>Making up features no user nor dev wants, woo.
06:23<peter1138>More railtypes? It's not sane.
06:25<andythenorth>but we can
06:25<andythenorth>mumble user needs
06:25<andythenorth>mumble don't do engineering for engineering's sake
06:25<andythenorth>but where's the fun in that :P
06:26<andythenorth>we're not building the tax return system here
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06:52<Eddi|zuHause>we could have 64 railtypes and still enforce 16 per grf :p
06:52<Eddi|zuHause>i'm sure encouraging users to add multiple railtype GRFs simultaneously will not cause any problems at all :p
06:54<mikegrb>hah
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07:22<FLHerne>peter1138: Having speed limits, electrification, and/or gauge be orthogonal would make it less absurd
07:22<FLHerne>But then there are the people who want weight limits
07:23<peter1138>That old chestnut.
07:23<peter1138>No, electrification and gauge are definitely part of the railtype definition.
07:24<peter1138>Speed limits sure.
07:26<peter1138>Not even sure about that.
07:27<andythenorth>I'm fine with the absurdity
07:27<andythenorth>it is what it is
07:27<andythenorth>if we'd split electrification from day 0, maybe it would be different, but eh
07:27<FLHerne>Perhaps it's just a UI thing
07:27<peter1138>Problem with having all those things as separate features is you 1-take space away and enforce that space has to be used for those features (or wasted) and 2-combinatorial hell, 3-who defines what is what.
07:28<andythenorth>and UI
07:28<andythenorth>UI is a cluster fuck either way
07:28<peter1138>andythenorth, no, electrification can't be split
07:28<peter1138>electrification is not binary
07:28<FLHerne>If track-types could be categorised like NewObjects, vast numbers of them would be less overwhelming
07:28<andythenorth>oh yeah that
07:28<andythenorth>ok
07:28<peter1138>it's not yes or no
07:28<andythenorth>well let's make groups for vehicle IDs
07:28<andythenorth>railtypes is for the best in this best of all possible worlds
07:28<andythenorth>but cargo subtypes are made of ass
07:28<FLHerne>peter1138: If it was only catenary, splitting it as an overlay thing would still work reasonably
07:29<peter1138>but it's NOT only catenary.
07:29<FLHerne>But I can't see how third-rails could work that way
07:29<FLHerne>(yes)
07:29<peter1138>4th rails
07:29<peter1138>different voltage systems
07:29<FLHerne>peter1138: I think different-voltage catenary would be fine
07:30<peter1138>but if electrification is just a flag... then you can't have that
07:30*andythenorth wonders about discussing things that are moot :)
07:30<FLHerne>peter1138: "Build catenary" could have a 15kV/25kV/both dropdown
07:30<peter1138>AC/DC it's okay by me
07:30<peter1138>Oh fuck that
07:30<andythenorth>64 output cargos per industry? :)
07:30<FLHerne>And the sprites aren't really affected by track type
07:30<FLHerne>But third-rail really has to be part of the track sprite
07:31<peter1138>I can switch and change my frequency.
07:31<FLHerne>Hm, "build catenary" isn't quite what I was envisaging
07:32<FLHerne>More like a dropdown "catenary: none, 1500VDC, 25kVAC, both" while building rails or using the conversion tool
07:32<FLHerne>(but it still doesn't really work)
07:32<peter1138>Anyway, last time we discussed this it came down to being totally a UI thing, and separate rail types is totally appropriate.
07:32<peter1138>TOTALLY hah
07:33<FLHerne>I guess that could extend to sub-railtypes generally, and leave the policy to newgrf
07:33<peter1138>(And in that case, increasing to 64 types is just a stepping stone)
07:33<peter1138>No, there are no sub-railtypes
07:34<andythenorth>RAILTYPE GROUPS
07:34<peter1138>FFS
07:34<andythenorth>SAY IT LOUDER
07:34<andythenorth>is it lunchtime yet?
07:34<FLHerne>So the newgrf could define "90mph standard rail" with different kinds of electrication, or "25kV rail" with different speed limits, and let authors fight out which was better
07:35*andythenorth back to work :P
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07:35<FLHerne>(I do find the one flat list very annoying)
07:36<FLHerne>More of a UI-presentation thing than trying to make railtypes combine or inherit things, which is silly
07:37<peter1138>Yeah. That's why cargo subtypes are a flop.
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07:38<peter1138>Of course, cargo subtypes are not even an attribute of cargo types, they are defined by vehicles... o_O
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07:53<Eddi|zuHause>"cargo subtypes" are a complete misnomer
07:54<Eddi|zuHause>maybe "vehicle subtypes" or "transportation subtypes"
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09:37<supermop_work>yo
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09:48<cccyRegeaneWolfe>Hey, I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/
09:48<cccyRegeaneWolfe>or maybe this blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/
09:49<cccyRegeaneWolfe>Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate
09:49<cccyRegeaneWolfe>Voice your opinions at https://webchat.freenode.net/?channels=#freenode
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10:04<Eddi|zuHause>i think the spammers are mutating
10:05<gregf>they are, yes
10:05<nielsm>what kind of smear campaign is this anyway? I'm not clicking any of the links
10:06<gregf>why not?
10:06<gregf>the links seem pretty legit
10:06<Eddi|zuHause>who knows, but the previous of these spams were from "amazon web services" hosts
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10:07<gregf>this makes the blogs look pretty legit https://archive.fo/UNfF2
10:09<Eddi|zuHause>that still doesn't mean you should give spammers more reason to exist by actually reacting to them
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10:13<Yotson>It seem to be so called Joe Job spam. Freenode had some at the end of last year as well.
10:14<Yotson>https://freenode.net/news/joe-job-spam
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10:31<SpComb>TF has normal rail and high-speed rail, both with caternary... early-game trains can drive on both, so it's nice in terms of gameplay because it lets you gradually upgrade in the mid-game... what does 1500VDC vs 25kVAC even mean in terms of gameplay? Sounds like what you'd end up with if you mixed two different train sets on the same map
10:32<SpComb>I mean, you can build the TGV and have it drive on normal rail, it'll just be limited to 120km/h
10:32<gregf>Tharbakim debdog michi_cc Rubidium tyteen4a03 Hirundo SpComb rocky113844 Smedles masse Eddi|zuHause hrmny XeryusTC angguss[m] Alkel_U3 KouDy supermop_work greeter Maarten gregf Heiki Sacro argoneus Exec colde ccfreak2k Osai rocky1138 Westie avdg LordAro nauticalnexus APTX_ Mek Yexo murr4y gnu_jj
10:32<gregf>Wacko1976 TrueBrain Flygon techmagus OsteHovel IgnoredAmbience cHawk orudge TinoDidriksen juzza1 LJ Antheus gas1[m] Mazur keoz urdh Sylf peter1138 crem2 tokai Extrems luaduck V453000 DorpsGek johnwhitlow[m] Hazzard Compu HeyCitizen Yotson manila[m] blathijs ^Spike^ pixeldanger[m] Terkhen Agiri[m]
10:32<gregf>grossing Markk dihedral triolus[m] mikegrb Wacko1976-work Arveen Lejving_ FLHerne quiznilo Laedek mindlesstux tneo Mahjong nielsm reldred _dp_ Ammler vlanik2[m] Taede berndj SmatZ heffer fonsinchen swimstar[m] planetmaker dvim Webster cute[m] chomwitt UncleCJ KenjiE20
10:32<gregf>Hey, I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/
10:32<gregf>or maybe this blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/
10:32<gregf>Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate
10:32<gregf>Voice your opinions at https://webchat.freenode.net/?channels=#freenode
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10:33<@Alberth>hi
10:33<Eddi|zuHause>so much for "legit links"
10:33<colde>Damn, it's started here now as well
10:33<crem2>They even found my private IRC for logs collecting where I'm literally alone!
10:35<colde>Ops might want to set +M proactively
10:35<colde>i suspect they will be back
10:35<crem2>It's far from annoying rate for now.
10:35<Eddi|zuHause>+r?
10:36<Eddi|zuHause>or was it +R?
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10:39<colde>Eddi|zuHause: +R prevents them from join, +M only prevents them from speaking, so it's the least intrusive way to stop them afaik
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10:39<Eddi|zuHause>but +M will prevent everone else from speaking as well
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10:40<crem2>But is there really anything to discuss?
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10:42<nielsm>SpComb, afaik early electric railways were DC because those motors were cheaper or whatever, then later AC took over, but modern electric motors are variable frequency so AC line will get rectified and re-inverted at variable frequency
10:43<nielsm>(so a modern multi-system elctric locotmotive just has a few different input stages to switch between)
10:43<SpComb>newer AC trains can drive on older DC track?
10:44<nielsm>but the simplified model of electrification every TT-like game has makes it difficult to give these differences gameplay meaning
10:44<Eddi|zuHause>SpComb: it's complicated...
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10:45<nielsm>https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Europe_rail_electrification_en.svg
10:45<Eddi|zuHause>DC is easier to construct, but has problems with long distances
10:45<nielsm>you have locos capable of running on most of those systems just with a switch
10:46<SpComb>why would you want to build multiple incompatible electification systems in the same game of OpenTTD :P
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10:46<nielsm>yes see it's difficult to implement good gameplay around systems where the player knows a choice is dead end
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10:47<Eddi|zuHause>the early AC locomotives had problems with sparks in each phase, so they chose a lowered frequency
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10:47<nielsm>but historically the people implementing it didn't know it would be
10:47<Eddi|zuHause>the countries which adopted AC later, chose the normal frequency
10:47<SpComb>I just hope there's more to NRT than just forcing you to rebuild track at some point in the game
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10:48<nielsm>very few places have changed electrification system of an entire railroad
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10:48<SpComb>like the original rail/monorail/maglev... electrified rail makes so much more sense
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10:48<nielsm>usually you just keep building new engines to run on the old system
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10:49<Eddi|zuHause>the original monrail/maglev has mainly the problem that standard rail lost all the vehicles at some point, so you had to switch
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10:50<SpComb>main problem I see is that you can't upgrade from rail to maglev in-place, you need to replace all the trains too
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10:50<nielsm>yeah you can't do that in reality either
10:50<Eddi|zuHause>there's two problems with that
10:50<Eddi|zuHause>a) you shouldn't have to do that replacement
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10:51<Eddi|zuHause>b) you probably don't want that replacement to be 1:1, you need much fewer trains after conversion
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10:51<nielsm>but in reality you can do partial upgrades of a conventional rail system, as long as the basic track remains compatible
10:51<nielsm>ugh so much join/kill spam
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10:51<Eddi|zuHause>i have join/leave messages disabled for people who never spoke
10:52<SpComb>yeah, that's what I mean by the TTDPatch/OpenTTD eletrification / TF high-speed rail upgrade being better in terms of gameplay
10:52<nielsm>but the cost of those upgrades are almost insignificant in my experience
10:52<nielsm>making them a no questions good choice
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10:54<nielsm>and then the distinction between non-/electrified rail becomes pointless anyway
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10:54<nielsm>if you play with infrastructure maintenance costs and the maintenance cost of electrified rail is actually significantly higher, then it might become interesting
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10:54<nielsm>also if you had to build and manage the electric substation infrastructure
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11:02-!-timvisher is "timvisher" on #slackware #lol #deadbeefsociety #debian.ch
11:02<timvisher>Hey, I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/
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11:02<timvisher>or maybe this blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/
11:02<timvisher>Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate
11:02<timvisher>Voice your opinions at https://webchat.freenode.net/?channels=#freenode
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11:08-!-stephens is "skizzato" on #oftc
11:08-!-stephens [~stephens@186.47.174.105] has joined #openttd
11:08-!-stephens [~stephens@186.47.174.105] has quit [autokilled: Suspected spammer - Contact support@oftc.net for help. (2018-07-25 15:08:28)]
11:08-!-milky is "skunky" on #oftc
11:08-!-milky [~milky@60.208.72.146] has joined #openttd
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11:08-!-blendify_i5 is "sheraf" on #oftc
11:08-!-blendify_i5 [~blendify_@95.128.191.55] has joined #openttd
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11:09-!-oso96_2000 is "hepar" on #oftc
11:09-!-oso96_2000 [~oso96_200@123.20.114.205] has joined #openttd
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11:09-!-trqx is "solaraquarion" on #oftc
11:09-!-trqx [~trqx@37.20.217.160] has joined #openttd
11:09-!-trqx [~trqx@37.20.217.160] has quit [autokilled: Suspected spammer - Contact support@oftc.net for help. (2018-07-25 15:09:13)]
11:09-!-nullrouted is "guest1934" on #oftc
11:09-!-nullrouted [~nullroute@119.32.161.121] has joined #openttd
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11:09-!-submain [~submain@113.183.246.234] has joined #openttd
11:09-!-submain is "mdroid" on @##aaaaa #reproducible-builds #observium #fish #subgraph #freedombox #gcc #redditprivacy #mm #kosagi #openttd #ceph #biz #moocows #osm #privacytools.io #fsci #gentoo #Qubes_OS #tor #oftc
11:09-!-submain [~submain@113.183.246.234] has quit [autokilled: Suspected spammer - Contact support@oftc.net for help. (2018-07-25 15:09:47)]
11:10-!-xcore is "fford" on #oftc
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11:10-!-cronus is "guest16880" on #oftc
11:10-!-cronus [~cronus@27.74.193.171] has joined #openttd
11:10-!-cronus [~cronus@27.74.193.171] has quit [autokilled: Suspected spammer - Contact support@oftc.net for help. (2018-07-25 15:10:22)]
11:10-!-atomicthumbs is "ululate" on #oftc
11:10-!-atomicthumbs [~atomicthu@14.187.96.7] has joined #openttd
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11:11-!-crayfishx [~crayfishx@190.151.164.73] has joined #openttd
11:11-!-crayfishx is "fford" on @##aaaaa #reproducible-builds #observium #fish #subgraph #freedombox #gcc #redditprivacy #mm #kosagi #openttd #ceph #biz #moocows #osm #privacytools.io #fsci #gentoo #Qubes_OS #tor #oftc
11:11-!-crayfishx [~crayfishx@190.151.164.73] has quit [autokilled: Suspected spammer - Contact support@oftc.net for help. (2018-07-25 15:11:02)]
11:11-!-t0ne is "samouy" on #oftc
11:11-!-t0ne [~t0ne@41.202.170.100] has joined #openttd
11:11-!-t0ne [~t0ne@41.202.170.100] has quit [autokilled: Suspected spammer - Contact support@oftc.net for help. (2018-07-25 15:11:11)]
11:11-!-nazca is "yar" on #oftc
11:11-!-nazca [~nazca@37.114.178.229] has joined #openttd
11:11-!-nazca [~nazca@37.114.178.229] has quit [autokilled: Suspected spammer - Contact support@oftc.net for help. (2018-07-25 15:11:21)]
11:11-!-o-dog1 is "arza" on #oftc
11:11-!-o-dog1 [~o-dog1@186.178.76.253] has joined #openttd
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11:11-!-kinny is "irinix" on #oftc
11:11-!-kinny [~kinny@184.170.59.254] has joined #openttd
11:11-!-kinny [~kinny@184.170.59.254] has quit [autokilled: Suspected spammer - Contact support@oftc.net for help. (2018-07-25 15:11:47)]
11:11-!-k0hax is "codex2064" on #oftc
11:11-!-k0hax [~k0hax@41.235.250.154] has joined #openttd
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11:12-!-keygen is "icee" on #oftc
11:12-!-keygen [~keygen@186.47.168.255] has joined #openttd
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11:12-!-Wormnest [~Wormnest@s5596abd2.adsl.online.nl] has joined #openttd
11:12-!-Wormnest is "Wormnest" on #openttd
11:12-!-thevdude is "cheapie" on #oftc
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11:12-!-^v is "a|taris" on #oftc
11:12-!-^v [~^v@111-254-34-108.dynamic-ip.hinet.net] has joined #openttd
11:12-!-^v [~^v@111-254-34-108.dynamic-ip.hinet.net] has quit [autokilled: Suspected spammer - Contact support@oftc.net for help. (2018-07-25 15:12:35)]
11:12-!-aimhere is "nineteen" on #oftc
11:12-!-aimhere [~aimhere@14.187.152.35] has joined #openttd
11:12-!-aimhere [~aimhere@14.187.152.35] has quit [autokilled: Suspected spammer - Contact support@oftc.net for help. (2018-07-25 15:12:50)]
11:12-!-abian is "forextrader" on #oftc
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11:12-!-abian [~abian@113.172.51.127] has quit [autokilled: Suspected spammer - Contact support@oftc.net for help. (2018-07-25 15:12:53)]
11:12-!-calcul0n is "jak" on #oftc
11:12-!-calcul0n [~calcul0n@113.173.196.143] has joined #openttd
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11:13-!-silversword is "emilsp" on #oftc
11:13-!-silversword [~silverswo@111-240-98-180.dynamic-ip.hinet.net] has joined #openttd
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11:13-!-rigel [~rigel@190.214.218.122] has joined #openttd
11:13-!-rigel is "mony" on @##aaaaa #reproducible-builds #observium #fish #subgraph #freedombox #gcc #redditprivacy #mm #kosagi #openttd #ceph #biz #moocows #osm #privacytools.io #fsci #gentoo #Qubes_OS #tor #oftc
11:13-!-rigel [~rigel@190.214.218.122] has quit [autokilled: Suspected spammer - Contact support@oftc.net for help. (2018-07-25 15:13:57)]
11:14-!-checking [~checking@114-26-74-91.dynamic-ip.hinet.net] has joined #openttd
11:14-!-checking is "connecting" on @##aaaaa #reproducible-builds #observium #fish #subgraph #freedombox #gcc #redditprivacy #mm #kosagi #openttd #ceph #biz #moocows #osm #privacytools.io #fsci #gentoo #Qubes_OS #tor #oftc
11:14-!-checking [~checking@114-26-74-91.dynamic-ip.hinet.net] has quit [autokilled: Suspected spammer - Contact support@oftc.net for help. (2018-07-25 15:14:10)]
11:14-!-rorx is "milky" on #oftc
11:14-!-rorx [~rorx@27.73.86.50] has joined #openttd
11:14-!-rorx [~rorx@27.73.86.50] has quit [autokilled: Suspected spammer - Contact support@oftc.net for help. (2018-07-25 15:14:19)]
11:14-!-barschmade is "pendo324" on #oftc
11:14-!-barschmade [~barschmad@194.8.144.71] has joined #openttd
11:14-!-barschmade [~barschmad@194.8.144.71] has quit [autokilled: Suspected spammer - Contact support@oftc.net for help. (2018-07-25 15:14:23)]
11:14-!-nkk71 is "waggie" on #oftc
11:14-!-nkk71 [~nkk71@37.209.236.76] has joined #openttd
11:14-!-nkk71 [~nkk71@37.209.236.76] has quit [autokilled: Suspected spammer - Contact support@oftc.net for help. (2018-07-25 15:14:29)]
11:14-!-shrooms is "boars" on #oftc
11:14-!-shrooms [~shrooms@197.163.69.173] has joined #openttd
11:14-!-shrooms [~shrooms@197.163.69.173] has quit [autokilled: Suspected spammer - Contact support@oftc.net for help. (2018-07-25 15:14:34)]
11:14-!-kasa is "wikipuppies" on #oftc
11:14-!-kasa [~kasa@116.58.248.81] has joined #openttd
11:14-!-kasa [~kasa@116.58.248.81] has quit [autokilled: Suspected spammer - Contact support@oftc.net for help. (2018-07-25 15:14:39)]
11:15-!-we is "ks0stm" on #oftc
11:15-!-we [~we@103.1.93.181] has joined #openttd
11:15-!-we [~we@103.1.93.181] has quit [autokilled: Suspected spammer - Contact support@oftc.net for help. (2018-07-25 15:15:00)]
11:15-!-logan is "unknown" on #oftc
11:15-!-logan [~logan@156.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #openttd
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11:15-!-texou is "deedra" on #oftc
11:15-!-texou [~texou@c51009C36.inet.catch.no] has joined #openttd
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11:15-!-lord_of_life is "xmopxshell" on #oftc
11:15-!-lord_of_life [~lord_of_l@190.214.235.238] has joined #openttd
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11:15-!-nou is "papabear69" on #oftc
11:15-!-nou [~nou@60.2.190.82] has joined #openttd
11:15-!-nou [~nou@60.2.190.82] has quit [autokilled: Suspected spammer - Contact support@oftc.net for help. (2018-07-25 15:15:38)]
11:16-!-superseriouscat is "nikivi" on #oftc
11:16-!-superseriouscat [~superseri@14.161.9.127] has joined #openttd
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11:16-!-yugiohjcj is "y0sh" on #oftc
11:16-!-yugiohjcj [~yugiohjcj@2800:bf0:9fff:f428:fa75:88ff:fee9:ddff] has joined #openttd
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11:16-!-thk127 is "ceber" on #oftc
11:16-!-thk127 [~thk127@37.114.183.204] has joined #openttd
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11:16-!-mrelendig is "trianglesausage" on #oftc
11:16-!-mrelendig [~mrelendig@84.22.48.36] has joined #openttd
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11:16-!-bitch is "innovation." on #oftc
11:16-!-bitch [~bitch@103.196.53.138] has joined #openttd
11:16-!-bitch [~bitch@103.196.53.138] has quit [autokilled: Suspected spammer - Contact support@oftc.net for help. (2018-07-25 15:16:45)]
11:16-!-sitri is "solprefixer" on #oftc
11:16-!-sitri [~sitri@212.230.157.223] has joined #openttd
11:16-!-sitri [~sitri@212.230.157.223] has quit [autokilled: Suspected spammer - Contact support@oftc.net for help. (2018-07-25 15:16:47)]
11:16-!-random is "gabemo" on #oftc
11:16-!-random [~random@113.190.248.86] has joined #openttd
11:16-!-random [~random@113.190.248.86] has quit [autokilled: Suspected spammer - Contact support@oftc.net for help. (2018-07-25 15:16:52)]
11:16-!-as is "plat_" on #oftc
11:16-!-as [~as@static-207-222-44-107.earthlinkbusiness.net] has joined #openttd
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11:17-!-kasa is "drdanick" on #oftc
11:17-!-kasa [~kasa@114-37-98-206.dynamic-ip.hinet.net] has joined #openttd
11:17-!-kasa [~kasa@114-37-98-206.dynamic-ip.hinet.net] has quit [autokilled: Suspected spammer - Contact support@oftc.net for help. (2018-07-25 15:17:01)]
11:17-!-justthedoctor [~justthedo@62.148.227.85] has joined #openttd
11:17-!-justthedoctor is "xgc" on @##aaaaa #reproducible-builds #observium #fish #subgraph #freedombox #gcc #redditprivacy #mm #kosagi #openttd #ceph #biz #moocows #osm #privacytools.io #fsci #gentoo #Qubes_OS #tor #oftc
11:17-!-justthedoctor [~justthedo@62.148.227.85] has quit [autokilled: Suspected spammer - Contact support@oftc.net for help. (2018-07-25 15:17:16)]
11:17-!-anderx is "mub" on #oftc
11:17-!-anderx [~anderx@2800:bf0:9fff:f428:ca1f:beff:fef4:9276] has joined #openttd
11:17-!-anderx [~anderx@2800:bf0:9fff:f428:ca1f:beff:fef4:9276] has quit [autokilled: Suspected spammer - Contact support@oftc.net for help. (2018-07-25 15:17:29)]
11:19-!-Wacko1976 [~IceChat9@027-161-128-083.dynamic.caiway.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
11:20-!-holo is "fleet" on #oftc
11:20-!-holo [~holo@5.238.238.27] has joined #openttd
11:20-!-holo [~holo@5.238.238.27] has quit [autokilled: Suspected spammer - Contact support@oftc.net for help. (2018-07-25 15:20:15)]
11:20-!-siinus` [~siinus`@121.165.205.105] has joined #openttd
11:20-!-siinus` is "huhlig" on @##aaaaa #reproducible-builds #observium #fish #subgraph #freedombox #gcc #redditprivacy #mm #kosagi #openttd #ceph #biz #moocows #osm #privacytools.io #fsci #gentoo #Qubes_OS #tor #oftc
11:20-!-siinus` [~siinus`@121.165.205.105] has quit [autokilled: Suspected spammer - Contact support@oftc.net for help. (2018-07-25 15:20:33)]
11:20-!-raziel [~raziel@108.201-148-82.bestel.com.mx] has joined #openttd
11:20-!-raziel is "ipv6" on @##aaaaa #reproducible-builds #observium #fish #subgraph #freedombox #gcc #redditprivacy #mm #kosagi #openttd #ceph #biz #moocows #osm #privacytools.io #fsci #gentoo #Qubes_OS #tor #oftc
11:20-!-raziel [~raziel@108.201-148-82.bestel.com.mx] has quit [autokilled: Suspected spammer - Contact support@oftc.net for help. (2018-07-25 15:20:48)]
11:21-!-blendify_i5 is "patate" on #oftc
11:21-!-blendify_i5 [~blendify_@125.143.229.253] has joined #openttd
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11:21-!-cfields is "iota" on #oftc
11:21-!-cfields [~cfields@113.173.186.76] has joined #openttd
11:21-!-cfields [~cfields@113.173.186.76] has quit [autokilled: Suspected spammer - Contact support@oftc.net for help. (2018-07-25 15:21:25)]
11:21-!-lostnord is "by" on #oftc
11:21-!-lostnord [~lostnord@2804:18:4826:caa3:4237:8624:1082:af41] has joined #openttd
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11:21-!-liara- is "mrelendig" on #oftc
11:21-!-liara- [~liara-@117.4.233.97] has joined #openttd
11:21-!-liara- [~liara-@117.4.233.97] has quit [autokilled: Suspected spammer - Contact support@oftc.net for help. (2018-07-25 15:21:43)]
11:21-!-promote is "bwbellairs" on #oftc
11:21-!-promote [~promote@221.214.214.105] has joined #openttd
11:21-!-promote [~promote@221.214.214.105] has quit [autokilled: Suspected spammer - Contact support@oftc.net for help. (2018-07-25 15:21:51)]
11:22-!-dlcastc is "fiendking04" on #oftc
11:22-!-dlcastc [~dlcastc@188.134.29.57] has joined #openttd
11:22-!-dlcastc [~dlcastc@188.134.29.57] has quit [autokilled: Suspected spammer - Contact support@oftc.net for help. (2018-07-25 15:22:09)]
11:22-!-trobotham [~trobotham@190.151.164.126] has joined #openttd
11:22-!-trobotham is "mdroid" on @##aaaaa #reproducible-builds #observium #fish #subgraph #freedombox #gcc #redditprivacy #mm #kosagi #openttd #ceph #biz #moocows #osm #privacytools.io #fsci #gentoo #Qubes_OS #tor #oftc
11:22-!-trobotham [~trobotham@190.151.164.126] has quit [autokilled: Suspected spammer - Contact support@oftc.net for help. (2018-07-25 15:22:14)]
11:22-!-muffinmedic is "junction00" on #oftc
11:22-!-muffinmedic [~muffinmed@186.47.169.172] has joined #openttd
11:22-!-muffinmedic [~muffinmed@186.47.169.172] has quit [autokilled: Suspected spammer - Contact support@oftc.net for help. (2018-07-25 15:22:42)]
11:22-!-c0c0dril0 is "some_person" on #oftc
11:22-!-c0c0dril0 [~c0c0dril0@189.101.42.202] has joined #openttd
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11:23-!-trqx is "silversword" on #oftc
11:23-!-trqx [~trqx@233.162.62.81.static.wline.lns.sme.cust.swisscom.ch] has joined #openttd
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11:23-!-rigel is "ensyde" on #oftc
11:23-!-rigel [~rigel@110.77.238.11] has joined #openttd
11:23-!-rigel [~rigel@110.77.238.11] has quit [autokilled: Suspected spammer - Contact support@oftc.net for help. (2018-07-25 15:23:16)]
11:23-!-hubcaps is "kobras" on #oftc
11:23-!-hubcaps [~hubcaps@182.137.14.72] has joined #openttd
11:23-!-hubcaps [~hubcaps@182.137.14.72] has quit [autokilled: Suspected spammer - Contact support@oftc.net for help. (2018-07-25 15:23:37)]
11:23-!-djones is "burningprincess" on #oftc
11:23-!-djones [~djones@190.2.116.176] has joined #openttd
11:24-!-djones [~djones@190.2.116.176] has quit [autokilled: Suspected spammer - Contact support@oftc.net for help. (2018-07-25 15:24:00)]
11:24-!-thurin_ is "aprexer" on #oftc
11:24-!-thurin_ [~thurin@131.100.187.38] has joined #openttd
11:24-!-thurin_ [~thurin@131.100.187.38] has quit [autokilled: Suspected spammer - Contact support@oftc.net for help. (2018-07-25 15:24:17)]
11:24-!-steev_ is "spirit_pact" on #oftc
11:24-!-steev_ [~steev@81.95.207.49] has joined #openttd
11:24-!-steev_ [~steev@81.95.207.49] has quit [autokilled: Suspected spammer - Contact support@oftc.net for help. (2018-07-25 15:24:30)]
11:24-!-manyraptors is "mon" on #oftc
11:24-!-manyraptors [~manyrapto@143.255.154.160] has joined #openttd
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11:24-!-elenah is "blendify_i5" on #oftc
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11:25-!-orliesaurus is "d9b4bef9" on #oftc
11:25-!-orliesaurus [~orliesaur@2800:bf0:9fff:fb91:627:58ff:fe93:ae00] has joined #openttd
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11:25-!-cccyregeanewolfe is "zooklubba" on #oftc
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11:25-!-stephens is "tanuki" on #oftc
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11:25-!-tionis is "rs-afk" on #oftc
11:25-!-tionis [~tionis@28.9.158.5.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #openttd
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11:25-!-caraway is "trisk" on #oftc
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11:26-!-kek918 is "enyc" on #oftc
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11:26-!-syfer is "was" on #oftc
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11:26-!-ugjka_ is "aossed-" on #oftc
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11:26-!-beuker is "fsamareanu" on #oftc
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11:26-!-victorsueca is "lildirt" on #oftc
11:26-!-victorsueca [~victorsue@ec2-52-220-215-175.ap-southeast-1.compute.amazonaws.com] has joined #openttd
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11:26-!-ululate is "ksx4system" on #oftc
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11:27-!-developers is "orb" on #oftc
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11:27-!-siso_ is "danzilio" on #oftc
11:27-!-siso_ [~siso_@171.237.199.168] has joined #openttd
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11:27-!-goldman60 is "raccoon" on #oftc
11:27-!-goldman60 [~goldman60@212.106.25.217] has joined #openttd
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11:27-!-cheapie_ is "ryanknack" on #oftc
11:27-!-cheapie_ [~cheapie@fixed-187-188-129-134.totalplay.net] has joined #openttd
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11:28-!-peetz0r_ is "fiendking04" on #oftc
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11:28-!-nemesys is "quicksilver" on #oftc
11:28-!-nemesys [~nemesys@37.114.168.130] has joined #openttd
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11:28-!-jacob843 is "guest3871" on #oftc
11:28-!-jacob843 [~jacob843@114-24-65-110.dynamic-ip.hinet.net] has joined #openttd
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11:28-!-fredrikhl is "boser" on #oftc
11:28-!-fredrikhl [~fredrikhl@123.21.70.149] has joined #openttd
11:28-!-fredrikhl [~fredrikhl@123.21.70.149] has quit [autokilled: Suspected spammer - Contact support@oftc.net for help. (2018-07-25 15:28:19)]
11:28-!-xgc [~xgc@182.16.162.58] has joined #openttd
11:28-!-xgc is "xerox123" on @##aaaaa #reproducible-builds #observium #fish #subgraph #freedombox #gcc #redditprivacy #mm #kosagi #openttd #ceph #biz #moocows #osm #privacytools.io #fsci #gentoo #Qubes_OS #tor #oftc
11:28-!-xgc [~xgc@182.16.162.58] has quit [autokilled: Suspected spammer - Contact support@oftc.net for help. (2018-07-25 15:28:25)]
11:28-!-foxcookie is "richvdh" on #oftc
11:28-!-foxcookie [~foxcookie@197.234.48.118] has joined #openttd
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11:28-!-wraeth_ [~wraeth@190.151.167.94] has joined #openttd
11:28-!-wraeth_ is "decay" on @##aaaaa #reproducible-builds #observium #fish #subgraph #freedombox #gcc #redditprivacy #mm #kosagi #openttd #ceph #biz #moocows #osm #privacytools.io #fsci #gentoo #Qubes_OS #tor #oftc
11:28-!-wraeth_ [~wraeth@190.151.167.94] has quit [autokilled: Suspected spammer - Contact support@oftc.net for help. (2018-07-25 15:28:48)]
11:29-!-pici is "dlange" on #oftc
11:29-!-pici [~pici@110.78.147.201] has joined #openttd
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11:29-!-lbft_ is "wook_" on #oftc
11:29-!-lbft_ [~lbft@ip-192-209.sn2.clouditalia.com] has joined #openttd
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11:30-!-jan\ is "kobras" on #oftc
11:30-!-jan\ [~jan\@171.241.60.15] has joined #openttd
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11:30-!-hdm[m] is "jor" on #oftc
11:30-!-hdm[m] [~hdmm]@14.186.150.227] has joined #openttd
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11:30-!-l0j1k is "ajvpot" on #oftc
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11:31-!-raziel [~raziel@115.160.26.117] has joined #openttd
11:31-!-raziel is "lewsthanthree" on @##aaaaa #reproducible-builds #observium #fish #subgraph #freedombox #gcc #redditprivacy #mm #kosagi #openttd #ceph #biz #moocows #osm #privacytools.io #fsci #gentoo #Qubes_OS #tor #oftc
11:31-!-raziel [~raziel@115.160.26.117] has quit [autokilled: Suspected spammer - Contact support@oftc.net for help. (2018-07-25 15:31:32)]
11:31-!-tehnut is "darkengine" on #oftc
11:31-!-tehnut [~tehnut@37.114.163.88] has joined #openttd
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11:31-!-zv_ is "mikeoftheeast" on #oftc
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11:31-!-hipp is "mattcode" on #oftc
11:31-!-hipp [~hipp@168-205-38-14.wantel.net.br] has joined #openttd
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11:31-!-andries is "notiche" on #oftc
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11:32-!-ohelig is "revi" on #oftc
11:32-!-ohelig [~ohelig@114-41-61-115.dynamic-ip.hinet.net] has joined #openttd
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11:32-!-ollien is "_help" on #oftc
11:32-!-ollien [~ollien@138-204-70-80.wantel.net.br] has joined #openttd
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11:32-!-jhutchin1 is "smeggysmeg" on #oftc
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11:32-!-ktechmidas is "acronix" on #oftc
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11:33-!-was is "fossxplorer" on #oftc
11:33-!-was [~was@cpe-72-231-24-177.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #openttd
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11:33-!-grossing_ is "exponent" on #oftc
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11:33-!-our is "neobenedict" on #oftc
11:33-!-our [~our@182.75.83.162] has joined #openttd
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11:33-!-justyns is "singalaut" on #oftc
11:33-!-justyns [~justyns@41.38.227.91] has joined #openttd
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11:33-!-the_madman is "asafniv" on #oftc
11:33-!-the_madman [~the_madma@190.151.173.199] has joined #openttd
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11:33-!-vicenteh is "szt" on #oftc
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11:33-!-nikow is "planigan" on #oftc
11:33-!-nikow [~nikow@113.162.159.49] has joined #openttd
11:34-!-nikow [~nikow@113.162.159.49] has quit [autokilled: Suspected spammer - Contact support@oftc.net for help. (2018-07-25 15:34:00)]
11:34-!-crunchychewie is "marcoslater" on #oftc
11:34-!-crunchychewie [~crunchych@182.74.51.194] has joined #openttd
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11:34-!-Progman [~progman@p57A2B242.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd
11:34-!-Progman is "Peter Henschel" on #openttdcoop.dev #openttdcoop #openttd
11:34-!-vicenteh is "szt" on #oftc
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11:34-!-rasengan is "zooklubba" on #oftc
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11:35-!-hobbyboy_ is "stephen87" on #oftc
11:35-!-hobbyboy_ [~hobbyboy@186.90.10.93] has joined #openttd
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11:35-!-polarizedions is "sary" on #oftc
11:35-!-polarizedions [~polarized@47-51-75-115.static.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #openttd
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11:36-!-theaetetus is "missioncritical" on #oftc
11:36-!-theaetetus [~theaetetu@2800:bf0:9fff:f429:fa75:88ff:feeb:8f73] has joined #openttd
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11:36-!-skywarn is "hpt" on #oftc
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11:36-!-simon_-_ is "l2y" on #oftc
11:36-!-simon_-_ [~simon_-_@139.20.10.185.dyn.idknet.com] has joined #openttd
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11:36-!-zuu_ is "hipp" on #oftc
11:36-!-zuu_ [~zuu_@92.60.25.90] has joined #openttd
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11:37-!-sud0 is "neptune" on #oftc
11:37-!-sud0 [~sud0@187.111.215.170] has joined #openttd
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11:37-!-neddysea1 is "venusaur" on #oftc
11:37-!-neddysea1 [~neddyseag@2001:da8:b3:203::2] has joined #openttd
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11:37-!-thomasb9511 is "siso_" on #oftc
11:37-!-thomasb9511 [~thomasb95@shpd-92-101-165-91.vologda.ru] has joined #openttd
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11:38-!-joepie91 is "tomek" on #oftc
11:38-!-joepie91 [~joepie91@14.161.19.194] has joined #openttd
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11:38-!-blendify_i5 is "hipp" on #oftc
11:38-!-blendify_i5 [~blendify_@124.128.3.131] has joined #openttd
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11:39-!-jesse_ is "mozzarella" on #oftc
11:39-!-jesse_ [~jesse@37.114.180.245] has joined #openttd
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11:39-!-johnny56 is "joepie91" on #oftc
11:39-!-johnny56 [~johnny56@111-240-222-179.dynamic-ip.hinet.net] has joined #openttd
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11:40-!-sleepy_ [~sleepy@36-231-46-192.dynamic-ip.hinet.net] has joined #openttd
11:40-!-sleepy_ is "jimbeamm" on @##aaaaa #reproducible-builds #observium #fish #subgraph #freedombox #gcc #redditprivacy #mm #kosagi #openttd #ceph #biz #moocows #osm #privacytools.io #fsci #gentoo #Qubes_OS #tor #oftc
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11:41-!-patrick is "typhon" on #oftc
11:41-!-patrick [~patrick@103.75.32.67] has joined #openttd
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11:41-!-precise is "waldo" on #oftc
11:41-!-precise [~precise@213-65-14-48-no2215.digitaltv.telia.com] has joined #openttd
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11:41-!-milos is "profall" on #oftc
11:41-!-milos [~milos@171.241.15.159] has joined #openttd
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11:42-!-slashlife is "zoddo" on #oftc
11:42-!-slashlife [~slashlife@122.146.95.179] has joined #openttd
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11:42-!-marduk191 is "klx``" on #oftc
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11:42-!-oleo is "lostnord" on #oftc
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11:43-!-pk12 is "jeggott" on #oftc
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11:43-!-mist_ is "lucy_" on #oftc
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11:43-!-joek is "zx3" on #oftc
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11:44-!-ketas_ is "limbo" on #oftc
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11:44-!-rasengan is "wook_" on #oftc
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11:44-!-lausefuc1 is "kirito" on @##aaaaa #reproducible-builds #observium #fish #subgraph #freedombox #gcc #redditprivacy #mm #kosagi #openttd #ceph #biz #moocows #osm #privacytools.io #fsci #gentoo #Qubes_OS #tor #oftc
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11:44-!-ktechmidas is "ski7777" on @##aaaaa #reproducible-builds #observium #fish #subgraph #freedombox #gcc #redditprivacy #mm #kosagi #openttd #ceph #biz #moocows #osm #privacytools.io #fsci #gentoo #Qubes_OS #tor #oftc
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11:45-!-guntbert is "brethil" on #oftc
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11:46-!-poxifide is "fireworks" on @##aaaaa #reproducible-builds #observium #fish #subgraph #freedombox #gcc #redditprivacy #mm #kosagi #openttd #ceph #biz #moocows #osm #privacytools.io #fsci #gentoo #Qubes_OS #tor #oftc
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11:46-!-neptune is "bungle" on #oftc
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11:46-!-thomasb9511 is "christel" on #oftc
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11:47-!-cooldude_ is "l235" on #oftc
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11:47-!-Gja is "Martin" on #ceph #bcache #openttd
11:47-!-^phantom^ is "lynxis" on #oftc
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11:47-!-|_ is "tallguy" on #oftc
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11:48-!-burningprincess is "tsglove" on #oftc
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11:48-!-memoryno- is "moved" on #oftc
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11:48-!-decay is "robotroll" on #oftc
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11:49-!-napsterbater is "neothermic|work" on #oftc
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11:49-!-joycepao is "maple__" on #oftc
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11:50-!-alexz is "sinistar" on #oftc
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11:50-!-glyphie____ is "lutoma" on #oftc
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11:50-!-y0sh_ is "ablackack" on #oftc
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11:50-!-czart_ is "thisisbilly" on #oftc
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11:50-!-techman is "zalabaslea" on #oftc
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11:51-!-chachasmooth is "guest32399" on #oftc
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11:51-!-andythenorth is "andythenorth" on #openttd
11:51<andythenorth>pigment mine? o_O
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11:52-!-smeggysmeg is "jimbeamm" on @##aaaaa #reproducible-builds #observium #fish #subgraph #freedombox #gcc #redditprivacy #mm #kosagi #openttd #ceph #biz #moocows #osm #privacytools.io #fsci #gentoo #Qubes_OS #tor #oftc
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11:52<nielsm>I think most minerals need some additional processing to be useful as pigments
11:52-!-grumble2 is "darxun" on #oftc
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11:53<andythenorth>that's ok
11:53<andythenorth>I have sulfuric acid :P
11:53-!-ohelig is "iota" on #oftc
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11:53-!-barq_ is "vectr0n|cloud" on @##aaaaa #reproducible-builds #observium #fish #subgraph #freedombox #gcc #redditprivacy #mm #kosagi #openttd #ceph #biz #moocows #osm #privacytools.io #fsci #gentoo #Qubes_OS #tor #oftc
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11:53-!-avelardi_ is "olipro" on #oftc
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11:53-!-wiggle is "freenode" on #oftc
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11:54-!-cccyregeanewolfe is "trek" on #oftc
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11:54-!-m4v is "avelardi" on @##aaaaa #reproducible-builds #observium #fish #subgraph #freedombox #gcc #redditprivacy #mm #kosagi #openttd #ceph #biz #moocows #osm #privacytools.io #fsci #gentoo #Qubes_OS #tor #oftc
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11:54-!-matlock is "ben_zen" on #oftc
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11:55-!-icasdri is "suchwow" on #oftc
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11:55-!-arirang is "stevoo" on #oftc
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11:55-!-insidious is "huhlig" on #oftc
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11:56-!-trijetscud is "guest79333" on #oftc
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11:56-!-jack3 is "thunderrd" on #oftc
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11:57-!-caf is "barlas" on #oftc
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11:58-!-nstr_ is "^millerboss" on #oftc
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11:58-!-mdk_ is "tourist" on #oftc
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11:59-!-robink is "arahael" on #oftc
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11:59-!-nb_ is "zz_ka6sox" on #oftc
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11:59<nielsm>uh huh? there is industry_type.h and then industrytype.h
11:59-!-jollyrgrs is "whitephosphorus" on #oftc
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12:00-!-get is "mindjuju" on #oftc
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12:00-!-deltab is "qmr" on #oftc
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12:00-!-mindjuju is "___kent___" on #oftc
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12:00-!-timotab|gone is "edane" on #oftc
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12:00-!-abrotman_ is "sophira" on #oftc
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12:01-!-anataex is "sulvone" on #oftc
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12:01-!-jrg is "excepts" on #oftc
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12:01-!-elenah is "meti" on #oftc
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12:01-!-blendify_i5 is "deltab" on #oftc
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12:01-!-[itchyjunk] is "rosseaux" on #oftc
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12:02-!-clonak_ is "irc-5225225" on #oftc
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12:02-!-darkmagic is "deetwelve" on #oftc
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12:04-!-steveej_ is "boredguy" on #oftc
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12:05-!-welcome is "drdanick" on #oftc
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12:06<@planetmaker>nielsm, I guess there's a difference between industry types (as in different industries) and industry types (as in type definitions concerning industries). But it's rather... hand-wavy
12:06-!-em_ is "badseed" on #oftc
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12:06-!-elenah is "randy" on #oftc
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12:09<Eddi|zuHause>nielsm: *_type.h is for C++-types concerning *
12:09<Eddi|zuHause>nielsm: and industrytype.h is about actual industrytypes
12:10<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think i ever looked at either file
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12:26<@peter1138>nielsm, similar for cargo and rail :D
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12:27<Tony>hoody doody folks
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12:34<LordAro>maybe should consider +R again?
12:35<nielsm>yeah
12:35<nielsm>please
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12:50-!-iooner is "iooner" on #bcache #openttd #debian-gnome #debian-reproducible #observium #debian-nl #Corsair #openvas #msys2 #debian-java #soleus #linux-nfs #pentadactyl #spi #ck #virt #qemu #Qubes_OS #foodhackingbase #debian.ch #debian-toolchain
12:50<iooner>Hey, I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/
12:50<iooner>or maybe this blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/
12:50<iooner>Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate
12:50<iooner>Voice your opinions at https://webchat.freenode.net/?channels=#freenode
12:51<nielsm>LordAro: please? :)
12:51<nielsm>or peter1138? :)
12:51<andythenorth>is it a bot again?
12:51<andythenorth>like a really polite bot?
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12:52<LordAro>nielsm: i would if i could
12:52<LordAro>anyone with op can
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13:01-!-ilera is "lurker|dav2" on #oftc
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13:10-!-mode/#openttd [+R] by peter1138
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13:22<nielsm>oh where did andy go... had something for him to play with
13:22<nielsm>https://github.com/nielsmh/OpenTTD/tree/indcargonum
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13:27<frosch123>@mode -R
13:27-!-mode/#openttd [-R] by DorpsGek
13:28<nielsm>frosch123: there's a large number of spambots constantly joining and getting killed by the network, +R was put back to limit join/part spam
13:28<frosch123>oh, i thought i had forgotton it :p
13:28<frosch123>@mode +R
13:28-!-mode/#openttd [+R] by DorpsGek
13:28<LordAro>frosch123: you did, TB removed it :p
13:28<LordAro>quak
13:29<ilera>i have a blind friend who's unable to use nickserv because of his disability and can't join the channel now :(
13:30<LordAro>can use irc but cannot use nickserv?
13:30<LordAro>bit weird
13:30<ilera>yes, but he's disabled
13:30<ilera>nickserv is not very accessible
13:30<LordAro>i did read your previous message, yes
13:31<LordAro>just as accessible as normal text, i would say
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13:34<andythenorth>o/
13:35<nielsm>hi andythenorth, here's something for you to play with: https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/pull/6867
13:35<andythenorth>ha ha
13:35<andythenorth>that diverts my evening :P
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13:48<nielsm>andythenorth: I'm not sure if anything else needs to be done for it to also work with newgrf so please report back :D
13:49<andythenorth>I'll need to patch some stuff locally probs
13:49<andythenorth>let's see
13:49<nielsm>ah nmlc patch again maybe?
13:49<andythenorth>maybe
13:50<andythenorth>we'll see
13:50*andythenorth building
13:54<andythenorth>nmlc ERROR: "generated/firs.nml", line 219485: Cargo list must be an array with no more than 2 values
13:54<andythenorth>yeah I need to patch that
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14:07<nielsm>okay this is wrong https://0x0.st/sV4n.png
14:16<nielsm>fixed that, and then hacked in this https://0x0.st/sV47.png
14:16<andythenorth>it's attractive now eh :D
14:16<nielsm>burn all the stuff
14:17*andythenorth tries to fix nmlc
14:19<andythenorth>hopefully trivial
14:20<andythenorth>it's weird
14:20<andythenorth>I have totally changed position on removing limits in newgrf features
14:20<andythenorth>seems to co-incide with quitting forums
14:22<andythenorth>ooof
14:23<andythenorth>I always forget how to get the patched nml installed :P
14:23<andythenorth>done now
14:25*andythenorth wonders
14:25<andythenorth>why prod_cargo_types is limited to 2 in nml (looks right)
14:25<andythenorth>but accept_cargo_types is limited to 4 (looks wrong)
14:25<andythenorth>oh that's bytes
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14:26<andythenorth>nielsm: have you got an nml checkout? :P
14:26<nielsm>no, never touched it
14:26<andythenorth>https://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/nml/repository
14:27<andythenorth>it's pretty simple
14:27<andythenorth>I might be able to do this, but I might need someone else playing along at home :P
14:29<andythenorth>hmm it's built a newgrf
14:29<andythenorth>but openttd thinks its invalid
14:30<andythenorth>nielsm: https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/9070/firs.grf
14:31<nielsm>does nml use python 2 or 3?
14:32<andythenorth>python 3
14:32<andythenorth>https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pk2lvldbm/jzc9dj/raw
14:33<andythenorth>that compiles, but the change from 2 bytes to 4 looks odd and weird
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14:33<nielsm>I think 16 is the correct number
14:33<nielsm>oh... no
14:33<nielsm>hmm
14:35<andythenorth>if I remember correctly
14:35<andythenorth>the newgrf format needs to know how many bytes to expect in an action 0
14:35*andythenorth checks the current sizing
14:36<andythenorth>yeah prop 10 is a word
14:36<andythenorth>and prop 11 is a dword
14:36<andythenorth>https://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Action0/Industries
14:36<andythenorth>we might need to change those on the ottd side as well
14:37<andythenorth>within certain parameters, nml will just right out what it's given
14:37<nielsm>I have no idea how newgrf stuff works at all :)
14:37<andythenorth>so the nml side might be done with my patch
14:37<andythenorth>oh it's just a bunch of bytes :D
14:37<andythenorth>let's see if we can find ottd reading prop 10
14:38<andythenorth>there's a table somewhere maybe
14:38<nielsm>ahh
14:38<nielsm>both would need to become 16 byte types somehow
14:38<andythenorth>yes
14:38<andythenorth>oh it's a byte per cargo?
14:39<nielsm>yes
14:39<andythenorth>right
14:39<Eddi|zuHause>why 16?
14:39<nielsm>it felt like a good number
14:39<Eddi|zuHause>wouldn't 8 suffice for 64 bits?
14:39<nielsm>it's an array of cargoIDs
14:40<nielsm>not a bitmask
14:40<andythenorth>ok so nml might not know how to write out 16 :P
14:40<andythenorth>and I need to find these props in ottd somewhere
14:41<Eddi|zuHause>cargo ID is a byte?
14:42<andythenorth>nfo docs suggest so
14:42<andythenorth>but I haven't found where in ottd code this is yes
14:42<andythenorth>yes / yet /s
14:42<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: it would surprise me if nmlc had trouble writing a string of 16 bytes
14:42<andythenorth>me too
14:43<andythenorth>but it might have integrity checks
14:43*andythenorth tests
14:43<nielsm>ottd probably doesn't expect any more than the 2 and 4 bytes
14:43<nielsm>so 16 would confuse it
14:43<andythenorth>yes
14:43<andythenorth>and it will report invalid sprites likely
14:43<andythenorth>and then we have to think about older grfs
14:44<Eddi|zuHause>that change probably needs a grf version bump
14:44<andythenorth>about time
14:44<Eddi|zuHause>or a new property deprecating the old one
14:44<nielsm>maybe new actions are needed for the extension
14:45<andythenorth>nmlc ERROR: nmlc: An internal error has occurred:
14:45<andythenorth>....
14:45<andythenorth>line 190, in print_varx
14:45<andythenorth>well we've learnt something about scope :)
14:46<Eddi|zuHause>uhm, vars (as in "used in varaction2 or action6/7/9/D) can't be more than 4 bytes
14:46<nielsm>oh yes lots of this needs updating in ways https://0x0.st/sVJA.png
14:47<Eddi|zuHause>i was assuming you're modifying a property, not a var
14:47<nielsm>just looking through newgrf_industries.cpp for things right now
14:47<Eddi|zuHause>(as in, action0)
14:47<nielsm>and noticing more incompatibilities
14:48<Eddi|zuHause>nielsm: spoiler alert: it's almost never as easy as the first hack suggests :p
14:48<nielsm>:)
14:50<frosch123>andythenorth: nielsm: i guess you will have to define the newgrf syntax first
14:50<nielsm>looks like it
14:50<frosch123>https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pg1abrk2j <- suggestion for a start
14:50<frosch123>with no guarantees for completeness or suitability :)
14:50<andythenorth>how about a CB? :P
14:50<andythenorth>called 16 times :P
14:50*andythenorth uses the 'CB get out of jail free' card :P
14:53<nielsm>(having acceptances spread over multiple tiles also induces more interesting designs like "this is where we take in liquids, and over there are containers")
14:53<andythenorth>historically I've avoided that :D
14:53<andythenorth>it's used in $[some other industry set]
14:53<andythenorth>and it confuses me
14:54<andythenorth>but eh
14:54<andythenorth>worth a try again
14:54<nielsm>original industries already have that, for some reason
14:54<Eddi|zuHause>yeah in PBI there was a food processing industry that accepts livestock at one side and wheat at the other
14:56<andythenorth>the frosch spec looks pretty good to me
14:56<nielsm>frosch123: "var 6E[x]: Date when cargo x was accepted last in days since year 0" --- game does not keep track of this, only a general "any cargo was last accepted this date"
14:56<frosch123>yes, that one would be new
14:57<frosch123>but iirc andy tries to emulate similar things for supplies
14:57<andythenorth>it can be done with registers
14:57<andythenorth>but it would be convenient as a var
14:57<frosch123>feel free to skip it
14:57<andythenorth>there aren't 64 registers eh :P
14:57*andythenorth can't remember if they are word or dword
14:57<frosch123>i just read over all the variables, to check which needs adjustment, and that one came to mind :)
14:58<andythenorth>ignore me, we only need 16 anyway
14:58<andythenorth>:P
14:58<frosch123>andythenorth: depends whether you want to add 64 types of supply cargos
14:59<andythenorth>well no
14:59<andythenorth>if it's a CB, can I vary acceptance? :P
14:59<frosch123>you already can with 3D
14:59<frosch123>but it is messy due to the tile acceptance
14:59<andythenorth>isn't it
14:59<nielsm>the tiles would keep accepting the cargo
14:59<frosch123>removing tile acceptance would be a different patch :)
14:59<nielsm>the cargo would still be unloaded and paid for, just not delivered to the industry
15:00<frosch123>nielsm: there are also callbacks to stop tile acceptance. but they are called at different times
15:00<frosch123>so the few industry sets which use that, there are transition times
15:01<andythenorth>varying acceptance is a terrible idea :)
15:01<frosch123>where cargo is accepted/not yet accepted by either tiles or industry
15:02<frosch123>anyway: this stuff is only used by industries with limited stockpiles
15:02<frosch123>and those newgrf already complained that ottd only checks the acceptance once per cargo packet
15:02<frosch123>so ottd always overshoots the limit
15:03<frosch123>(if stockpile is 998, limit is 1000, and 16 items are delivered, it results in 1014 stockpiled)
15:03<frosch123>so, touching anything around 2B/2C/4D opens way scarier barrels :p
15:03<frosch123>*3D
15:04<andythenorth>I think we back away from the barrels
15:04<Eddi|zuHause>oh i had some fun trying to set up overflow routes for cargos with PBI
15:05<Eddi|zuHause>needs conditinal loading, as in "leave stations if load amount > 0"
15:06<Eddi|zuHause>hm... conditional shunting...
15:06<nielsm>frosch123: I also left some comments about more boring aspects of the code in the PR, do you think you can lend some input on those points?
15:09*andythenorth wonders when we move nml to openttd github
15:09<andythenorth>planetmaker: did we discuss that recently? o_O ^
15:17<frosch123>andythenorth: https://github.com/OpenTTDcoop <- this is how far we got :)
15:17<frosch123>though i think nml was supposed to go to ottd
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15:21<andythenorth>yes
15:22<andythenorth>it would be much easier to be able to PR the nml changes alongside the ottd changes
15:22<andythenorth>or at least in the same workfloew
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15:22<Wolf01>o/ +R again?
15:22<frosch123>too many furries
15:23<Wolf01>I need to fix my connect script, a timeout after issuing the identify command would be nice when the server takes a bit to identify
15:27<Eddi|zuHause>run the identify and the join in parallel, but precede the join with a sleep?
15:27<Wolf01>Yes, that
15:28<Eddi|zuHause>or run the identify and the sleep in parallel, and continue when either of those returns?
15:31*nielsm tries reading the newgrf loading code
15:31<Wolf01>Good luck
15:41<andythenorth>nielsm: so keep going? o_O
15:41<andythenorth>or bail out of this :)
15:41<nielsm>I'll try to see this through
15:42<andythenorth>nice
15:42<andythenorth>I think it's achieveable
15:42<andythenorth>adding a cb is usually easy
15:42<andythenorth>it's one of the few core commits I've done, so eh
15:42<nielsm>it's adding it in the right place :)
15:42<frosch123>there are no new callbacks
15:43<frosch123>it's only changing existing ones
15:45<andythenorth>oh yes
15:45<andythenorth>and it anticipates more than 2 or 3 in future
15:45<andythenorth>https://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Callbacks#Decide_input_and_output_cargo_types_.2814B.2C14C.29
15:47<nielsm>I'm concerned that the IndustrySpec not getting the default acceptance/production data might make things slightly weird
15:49<frosch123>https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pwwcxs3a7 <- i've added some key words for grepping in th esource
15:50<frosch123>nielsm: src/table/build_industry.h: extend "#define MI" with many "CT_INVALID" :)
15:50<nielsm>frosch123 I did already
15:50<nielsm>https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/pull/6867/commits/d334cc64a6090b222d1585d989ad06af59d1628b
15:59<nielsm>instead of/in addition to callbacks, would it be wrong to add a pair of new action0 properties that each take two bytes, the first is a cargo slot number and the second is a cargo type, repeatedly using the action with different cargo slot number sets the accepted/produced cargoes
15:59<nielsm>possibly the cargo production property sets both cargo type and production level
16:00<frosch123>changing action 0 is always a compatibility hassle
16:00<frosch123>adding incremental properties is very rare, and would not work in this case, since there are default values
16:01<frosch123>you could add a new property which takes a list of cargos
16:01<frosch123>but for a first version, callbacks are easier
16:02<nielsm>I think the industry chains window will be the victim, I believe it depends on the IndustrySpec definitions
16:02<frosch123>hmm, i did not write it explicitly in the draft
16:02<nielsm>and with just callbacks the IndustrySpec won't contain the cargoes
16:02<nielsm>right?
16:03<nielsm>as far as I understand the cb is only called upon actually constructing the industry on the map
16:03<frosch123>but i think cb 14b/14c should be called once on game start with "purchase list context"
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16:03<frosch123>and then the cargos are fixed
16:03<frosch123>this is almost the same as a property then
16:03<frosch123>the result of the callback would be stored in the industryspec in this case
16:05<frosch123>it's similar to the gui sprites of railtypes
16:05<frosch123>but i think there were some more cases where callbacks are only called once in AfterLoadGRFs
16:05<nielsm>e.g. CBID_INDUSTRY_INPUT_CARGO_TYPES is only ever used in DoCreateNewIndustry() which is actually building on the map
16:06<andythenorth>that's fine no? o_O
16:06<andythenorth>or do I miss something?
16:06<nielsm>the Industry object gets filled with actual in/out cargoes, but the IndustrySpec is not
16:06<frosch123>nielsm: yes, currently that's the case
16:06<frosch123>see line 42 in my paste
16:06<nielsm>so the "fund new industry" and "industry chains" windows won't reflect the actual acceptances
16:07<frosch123>the idea is that "purchase list" would return all potential cargos
16:07<frosch123>and for a specific industry the callback may choose a subset
16:07<frosch123>that should make the chain and fund gui work better than before
16:07<frosch123>while not removing the old usecases of the callback
16:08<nielsm>ah the call in DoCreateNewIndustry already points at INVALID_TILE anyway, so no location information there
16:08<nielsm>but it does pass an Industry object
16:08<nielsm>just passing NULL for Industry* should be valid?
16:08<frosch123>the call in DoCreateIndustry can use the current date and random values to pick different cargos
16:09<frosch123>yes, NULL should be fine
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16:14<Eddi|zuHause>there needs to be a special version of that callback for towns/houses
16:18<nielsm>frosch123: so your idea for the flag would be something like this? https://gist.github.com/nielsmh/2e9275212e5b627551abed502b77fbd5
16:19<frosch123>"unlimited" :p
16:19<nielsm>it's like unlimited data caps on internet
16:20<frosch123>yes, essentially that. maybe check for duplicates and treat them as error, but maybe that's a bonus
16:20<nielsm>(the grf should be ready to live in a world with even more acceptance types than just 16 if that flag is set)
16:21<frosch123>yes, "unlimited" in the name is certainly better than "16"
16:21<@planetmaker>andythenorth, yes, we did discuss that... yet coverting NML to git did fail for me and the straight forward import didn't do it
16:22<@planetmaker>it simply failed with some error messages (which I don't quite recall now)
16:23<andythenorth>interesting
16:24<Wolf01>'night
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16:25<@planetmaker>andythenorth, you also just gave it the hg.o.o URL?
16:25<@planetmaker>or how did you import it?
16:27<andythenorth>hmm
16:27<andythenorth>I thought I just imported it using github magic
16:28*andythenorth tests it
16:30<andythenorth>I don't have any hg -> git tool locally, so must be github magic
16:30<nielsm>ugh the cargo suffix code needs some real restructuring to get to work
16:30<nielsm>that's not for tonight
16:31<andythenorth>:)
16:31<andythenorth>if you achieve this
16:31<andythenorth>I have to refactor all 6 FIRS economies :D
16:31<andythenorth>it will take at least a year :D
16:31<nielsm>lol
16:31<frosch123>firs 64
16:31<andythenorth>planetmaker: "No source repositories were detected at http://hg.openttdcoop.org/nml. Please check the URL and try again."
16:32<andythenorth>same error?
16:32<frosch123>https?
16:32<andythenorth>let's see
16:33<Eddi|zuHause>is that firs for nintendo 64?
16:34<frosch123>64 bpp graphics
16:34<andythenorth>64x zoom
16:34<Eddi|zuHause>64D
16:35<andythenorth>hmm the github magic is failing
16:35<andythenorth>must be bees
16:35<frosch123>you need 64 dimensions to draw the cargo flow chart without intersections? :p
16:35<LordAro>not the bees!
16:36<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: that's not really how dimensions work :p
16:36<frosch123>depends how complex the links are
16:37<Eddi|zuHause>any graph can be drawn without intersections in 3D
16:37<frosch123>i am sure andy can find a way to make the edges a 63d manifold
16:37<andythenorth>what if the links change over time?
16:37<@planetmaker>andythenorth, yeah, I think so. Irrespective of https or http
16:37<andythenorth>:x
16:37<@planetmaker>Hm... maybe it's... certificate issue...
16:38<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: so you need moving edges that don't entangle themselves?
16:38<andythenorth>yes
16:42<nielsm>okay too tired to work on this any more, gn
16:42<nielsm>(hopefully I can sleep in this terrible humid heat)
16:43<andythenorth>UK is quite ambient :)
16:43<andythenorth>although I like it warm
16:44<andythenorth>19 deg right now
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16:44<andythenorth>nielsm: so I should stop reworking FIRS Extreme eh :D
16:44<andythenorth>until this is done
16:45<nielsm>eh you can plan the industries? :D
16:45<nielsm>16 in/16 out probably isn't changing
16:46<nielsm>so yeah, good night
16:46<andythenorth>gn
16:46*andythenorth also
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18:37<@peter1138>Hi
18:38<@peter1138>Is it safe yet?
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19:05<Eddi|zuHause>is it ever?
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19:16<Eddi|zuHause>i love people who claim they followed every step of the instruction
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