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#openttd IRC Logs for 2018-08-07

---Logopened Tue Aug 07 00:00:55 2018
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01:29<dihedral>good morning
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02:06<LordAro>oh no, where?
02:08<Eddi|zuHause>i'm definitely in the wrong time zone
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02:26<Hobby><+SP9002_@efnet> so, he wants the win. so we're just gonna get lunch or something, then hes gonna push me to the ground and tap my ass with his foot so he can claim he "kicked my ass" tbh im going along with it becase I dont wanna lose any teeth
02:26<Hobby>With our IRC ad service you can reach a global audience of entrepreneurs and fentanyl addicts with extraordinary engagement rates! https://williampitcock.com/
02:26<Hobby>I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/
02:26<Hobby>or maybe this blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/
02:27-!-mode/#openttd [+R] by planetmaker
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02:43<andythenorth>new OS
02:43<andythenorth>compile fails https://paste.openttdcoop.org/prvul6ahg
02:45<andythenorth>I've upgraded all deps and dev tools, afaict
02:45<andythenorth>Apple LLVM version 9.1.0 (clang-902.0.39.2)
02:48<@peter1138>^ LordAro
02:50<andythenorth>I can open a ticket if it's not just EBKAC here
02:52<@peter1138>No, someone else had it but I thought it was something already resolved. Oops.
02:53<@peter1138>So, erm, yeah, I mean yes.
02:53<@peter1138>They also only mentioned it here.
02:54<LordAro>how interesting
02:54<LordAro>wonder what actual version of clang that is
02:54<LordAro>given clang 9 is not a thing
02:55<@planetmaker>o/
02:55<LordAro>relatedly i was just reading http://vuminhle.com/pdf/pldi14-emi.pdf
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02:58<@peter1138>Compiler bug?
02:59<LordAro>i'm not suggesting andy's error is a compiler bug :p
03:00<LordAro>mm, expected expression..
03:00<LordAro>i think that's the configure script not picking up clang correctly
03:02<LordAro>but that was supposed to have been fixed...
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03:08<andythenorth>I'll open a ticket later
03:08<andythenorth>BBL
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03:28<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] bentley commented on issue #6842: Heap overflow leading to crash https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/issues/6842#issuecomment-410961538
04:09<@peter1138>So assuming it hits the clang section it shows up as version 91
04:10<@peter1138>So it'll get all the flags it previously got.
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04:57<Wolf01>o/
05:00<@peter1138>Client limit lol
05:00<Wolf01>Wut?
05:01<@peter1138>All the [m] clients left due to "Quit: Client limit exceeded: 4096"
05:01<Wolf01>Ahaha
05:05<Wolf01>I should try to reproduce the russian grf bug
05:14<Wolf01>Ok, no bug, maybe I compiled in a wrong way my source
05:17<Wolf01>And it could be, as it isn't loading any grf at all
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06:58<k-man>when you are building passenger trains for towns and cities, how long do you make them?
06:58<k-man>is there a best practice?
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07:00<@planetmaker>k-man, choose a station size. Use that everywhere. Make trains fit that station, and under no circumstances longer
07:01<k-man>planetmaker, ok, i went for 5 for freight, but that seems too big for passenger
07:01<k-man>i was thinking to do small trains for passenger trains
07:01<k-man>like 2 tiles
07:03<@peter1138>Passengers will explode, you'll regret that.
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07:05<k-man>explode?
07:05<k-man>you mean - long is good in the long term
07:05<k-man>as in passenger numbers will explode, not passengers themselves? :)
07:05<Wolf01>No, literally explode, blow up your stations
07:05<@peter1138>Cargo Type: Creepers
07:07<SpComb>hiss
07:08<SpComb>k-man: 5 tiles is reasonable... early trains with weaker engines and smaller towns will be shorter, but late-game you'll wish you had even longer stations
07:09<SpComb>2 tiles is way to short, you'll end up rebuilding all your stations pretty soon
07:09<SpComb>even without passenger destinations... those increase passenger numbers as well
07:11<k-man>ok, thanks for the tips guys
07:12<@peter1138>Really early trains you can get away with 2 tiles, but yeah, don't make the platforms that short.
07:12<SpComb>if you want to save money then build two-tile stations with three extra straight track pieces
07:12<SpComb>but not worth the bother tbh
07:12<@peter1138>And faff about with removing crossings.
07:13<Wolf01>I go with 5 tiles for everything, in late game I upgrade industrial ones to 7-9 tiles
07:13<Wolf01>Late game is about 15 minutes after start
07:13<SpComb>okay, mid game :)
07:13<SpComb>"late-game" is probably once you're struggling with 5 tiles
07:13<k-man>i already have an income so no need to save money just yet
07:13<Wolf01>No, then I'll stop playing, it's late game for me
07:14<SpComb>you just make the track loop around a little so you can fit in a 10-tile station ;)
07:14<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think we have bendy stations yet
07:15<@peter1138>I had a patch for it.
07:15<Wolf01>I do, but I keep them for myself
07:15<Wolf01>Eh, you too?
07:15<@peter1138>http://fuzzle.org/~petern/ottd/diagstations3.png
07:15<@peter1138>Such old.
07:16<Eddi|zuHause>that was like 12 yaars ago?
07:16<@peter1138>Something like that, yeah.
07:16<Wolf01>I have one which allow to build stations on slopes
07:16<Eddi|zuHause>it's now older than i was when i started playing TTO
07:17<andythenorth>newgrf support :P
07:18<andythenorth>the partial-loading thing in JGR is interesting
07:19<k-man>does a station service a whole town as long as its area of influence is on any part of the town?
07:19<SpComb>just rotate the sprites in the game engine
07:19<@peter1138>No, they service their catchment area.
07:19<SpComb>every house is separate
07:20<SpComb>plus you'll want a couple bus stops in each town to trigger town growth
07:20<SpComb>each town needs like 3-4 pax stations or something
07:20<SpComb>iirc!
07:21<Eddi|zuHause>k-man: depends what you mean by "service"
07:22<Eddi|zuHause>k-man: each station has an area where cargo comes from, and area where cargo gets delivered to (they are not quite the same if you have a non-rectangular station) and a town where it gets its name from
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07:24<Eddi|zuHause>the area where cargo comes from decides how much cargo you get to transport, the area where cargo goes to decides what will be accepted, and the town name not only decides the station name, but also things like "does this town receive food/water"
07:24<Wolf01>What decides which roadtype the town should build?
07:25<k-man>so if i build a station right at the edge of a large city, will it service the whole population? or i need stations around the city/
07:25<k-man>as in will it be able to pickup
07:25<SpComb>you need stations around the city
07:30<k-man>thanks
07:34<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: you mean what the code currently does, or what it was meant to do, or what it should do?
07:34<Wolf01>What it should do
07:35<Wolf01>Currently is the roadtype used in the town center tile
07:35<Wolf01>But Where to store a different one?
07:35<Eddi|zuHause>it should filter the available roads by "compatible with ROAD" and a "the town should use that for growing" flag (which is separate from "houses can grow here", and of those pick the fastest
07:36<Eddi|zuHause>towns should have plenty of off-map storage
07:36<Wolf01>Not sure about the fastest, in towns :P
07:36<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: well, the really fast ones (highway etc.) would not get the town flag
07:37<Eddi|zuHause>but if, say it had available dirt (15km/h), cobble (30km/h) and asphalt (50km/h), then it should choose asphalt
07:39<Eddi|zuHause>it should also avoid "asphalt with catenary", again by the town flag
07:39<Wolf01>Even that defeat the point of making you pay for upgrading a town road to the one which fits your needs (going faster)
07:40<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: the town would upgrade its roads very slowly
07:40<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: but it would use the best one for new roads
07:41<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: no town would still build dirt roads, because that was the type available 150 years ago
07:41<Wolf01>Yeah
07:43<k-man>do you make passenger trains go point to point or do a run along a whole bunch of stations?
07:44<Eddi|zuHause>i usually make a bus or tram network in the city, collecting everyone at a central train station (with cargodist)
07:44<Eddi|zuHause>then i have local and long distance trains from there
07:46<k-man>oh
07:46<k-man>cargodist
07:46<k-man>i'm yet to explore that
07:46<Eddi|zuHause>k-man: cargodist is like "whatever your train length was, it won't be enough"
07:48<@peter1138>I'm sure it needs some love but I don't know what.
07:54<andythenorth>bigger trains
07:55<@peter1138>Was there some error with production that makes it quadratic or something?
07:55<andythenorth>cdist has the interesting side effect of rewarding simple point-point networks
07:57<SpComb>wasn't there some actual town growth bug with a patch in the dev forums?
07:58<SpComb>but the cdist-related pax patches were just hacks to reduce pax numbers iirc
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08:00<Eddi|zuHause>yes, there was a quadratic production bug. it had nothing to do with cdist, though. it was more newgrf-related
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08:01<Eddi|zuHause>as in, if a newgrf doubles the population of a house, its production quadruples
08:03<andythenorth>oh someone maybe ticketed that
08:03*andythenorth looks
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08:09<andythenorth>can't find the ticket
08:09<Eddi|zuHause>it was probably a forum thread
08:11<Eddi|zuHause>i think i need food...
08:20<Wolf01>30 minutes to C:S
08:32<Eddi|zuHause>your download speeds are better than internet explorer :p
08:32<Wolf01>I started yesterday evening
08:33<Eddi|zuHause>yes.
08:33<SpComb>cities skylines?
08:33<Wolf01>Yes
08:33<SpComb>congratz
08:34<Eddi|zuHause>so, there was a surviving mars update announcement, but no update, and a stellaris update with no update announcement
08:35<Wolf01>Yeah, also an Astroneer update with no announcement (but there was one in their forum)
08:35<Eddi|zuHause>uhm, i have an astroneer announcement in my feed
08:35<Wolf01>I should really play Astroneer, it's better than NMS right now, and still misses alien fauna
08:35<Wolf01>There wasn't one yesterday
08:36<Eddi|zuHause>i heard NMS got an update? and everyone was looking positively into the future?
08:36<Eddi|zuHause>as in "this is the game how it should have been a year ago"
08:37<Wolf01>I'm still waiting to get it for 15€
08:37<Eddi|zuHause>it's probably still not a game for me
08:38<Eddi|zuHause>i'm also really unsure about getting astroneer
08:38<Wolf01>It's funny
08:38<Wolf01>Until you get everything and stop doing everything
08:38<Wolf01>But now there's more to explore, so...
08:39<Eddi|zuHause>it would help if it wasn't windows only
08:39<Eddi|zuHause>i configured the steam shop to only show me linux games now
08:42<SpComb>I'm still halfway through my second factorio game
08:42<SpComb>now at high tech with maybe 2 science packs (each) /s total, haven't even started with the first rocket yet
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09:11<@Alberth>o/
09:11<Wolf01>o/
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10:07<Wolf01>Rekt on 2 C:S games :(
10:07<SpComb>bankrupt?
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10:07<Wolf01>Yes, in 5 minutes
10:07<SpComb>you're doing it wrong
10:07<SpComb>don't build so much infra up front
10:07<Eddi|zuHause>need to restrain yourself
10:08<SpComb>yeah, start small
10:08<Eddi|zuHause>plop a few roads, a few houses, industries and commercials (preferably inbetween the other two)
10:08<Eddi|zuHause>then wait before you plop down police or schools
10:08<SpComb>mistake I made in my first game was to enact some ordnances that turned out to be surprisingly expensive, took me a long time to notice that they were draining like half of my budget
10:08<SpComb>the game got easier after that :)
10:09<Eddi|zuHause>i'm pretty sure i said that yesterday :p
10:09<Wolf01>I need to understand how much things I need to start
10:09<Wolf01>*many
10:10<SpComb>study the infra layout of american suburbs, and then avoid building anything like that
10:10<Eddi|zuHause>:p
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10:30<Wolf01>Ok, +1000$/w seem a good start, if only I will keep up with power, water, sewage, waste, noise, health, crime
10:31<nielsm>or use the included infinite money mod and play it as a bosai garden
10:32<Eddi|zuHause>infinite money never seemed like something that would interest me in this kind of game
10:32<Wolf01>Oh, is there a sandbox mode?
10:32<Eddi|zuHause>it's fairly easy to get money
10:32<Eddi|zuHause>yes, there is in the mods section (builtin mod)
10:33<nielsm>it's just the initial hump that's hard
10:33<Wolf01>I'm always able to play well for 1-2 hours (when I understand how to start) and then things suddenly explode
10:34<Eddi|zuHause>yes. but i don't see how infinite money is a solution to that :p
10:38<SpComb>I wouldn't play with infinite money either
10:38<SpComb>just like I wouldn't play with an absolutely empty flat map either
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11:13<Eddi|zuHause>i'm currently wondering whether i want https://store.steampowered.com/app/437630/State_of_Mind/
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11:32<Happpy>Hi not shor if this the right irc channel for this but ther a problem whive https://wiki.openttdcoop.org/Quickstart the a red thin on the website or it dont load up
11:33<LordAro>expired cert, planetmaker ^ ?
11:33<Happpy>Yeah
11:33<Eddi|zuHause>^Spike^?
11:36<Happpy>The problem is all openttdcoop websit i think
11:36<LordAro>it will be, yes
11:37<Happpy>Ok www.openttdcoop .org works so it all Wikipedia ones ar down
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14:18<andythenorth>o/
14:18<LordAro>andythenorth: giv issue
14:19<andythenorth>I looked if it overlapped any existing issues
14:19<andythenorth>couldn't see any
14:19<LordAro>andythenorth: i'm most interested in the output of configure
14:20<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth opened issue #6880: Compile fails on src/economy.cpp:702:20: error: expected expression https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/issues/6880
14:20<andythenorth>LordAro: do you want the full paste of ./configure?
14:20<LordAro>probably just the last bit, where it says which flags it's using
14:21<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on issue #6880: Compile fails on src/economy.cpp:702:20: error: expected expression https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/issues/6880#issuecomment-411153674
14:22<andythenorth>let me know if you need more
14:23<LordAro>andythenorth: is the output of `clang -v` any different?
14:24<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on issue #6880: Compile fails on src/economy.cpp:702:20: error: expected expression https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/issues/6880#issuecomment-411154454
14:24<andythenorth>seems not
14:24<LordAro>yeah, ok
14:24<LordAro>well certainly the version detection is broken
14:24<LordAro>it thinks you're on clang 91
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14:27<@peter1138>That's the version number it gives, so yes.
14:29<LordAro>yeah, because Apple are morons https://stackoverflow.com/a/36000632
14:29<LordAro>but the core of the issue is that it's not setting -std=c++11
14:29<LordAro>which is probably should
14:29<LordAro>it*
14:30<LordAro>or maybe it isn't getting 91..
14:30<@peter1138>91 is -ge 33
14:30<@peter1138>so...
14:31<LordAro>yeah, and the configure output implies that it's hit the -lt 30 branch
14:31<LordAro>andythenorth: can you run `clang -v | head -n1 | sed s@[^0-9]@@g | cut -c 1-2` ?
14:32<@peter1138>I wonder if it's doing it do stderr instead of stdout?
14:32<@peter1138>s/do/to/
14:32<LordAro>that would be even more surprising
14:32<Eddi|zuHause>is there a "verbose" mode where it outputs the commands it actually runs?
14:32<LordAro>yes, but not for this command
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14:34<Eddi|zuHause>"head -n1" <-- maybe the version is not in the first line anymore?
14:34<LordAro>it is according to the output andy posted :p
14:34<LordAro>at least, i think so, given newlines appear to be missing
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14:46<andythenorth>apple are definitely not competent enough to be doing some of the things they are doing
14:46<andythenorth>things that come to mind include writing compilers, designing chips
14:46<andythenorth>and making laptops
14:47<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on issue #6880: Compile fails on src/economy.cpp:702:20: error: expected expression https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/issues/6880#issuecomment-411161439
14:47<andythenorth>this bot is handy
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14:48<LordAro>andythenorth: no output?
14:49<andythenorth>LordAro: same as for clang -v
14:49<LordAro>your pastes keep losing the newlines :p
14:49<andythenorth>so they do
14:49<andythenorth>that's interesting of github
14:50<LordAro>andythenorth: just for fun, what happens if you turn the first pipe into a "|&" ?
14:50<andythenorth>hangon fixing newlines
14:50<andythenorth>I assumed that putting them in code blocks would preserve formatting
14:50<andythenorth>wrong assumption
14:51<andythenorth>clang -v |& head -n1 | sed s@[^0-9]@@g | cut -c 1-2
14:51<andythenorth>?
14:51<LordAro>``` foo ``` blocks or ` foo` blocks?
14:51<LordAro>yeag
14:51<LordAro>yrah*
14:51<LordAro>typos*
14:51<andythenorth>-bash: syntax error near unexpected token `&'
14:51<LordAro>interesting
14:52<LordAro>bash must be ancient
14:52<LordAro>do 2>&1 | instead
14:52<andythenorth>GNU bash, version 3.2.57(1)-release (x86_64-apple-darwin17)
14:52<LordAro>yup.
14:52<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on issue #6880: Compile fails on src/economy.cpp:702:20: error: expected expression https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/issues/6880#issuecomment-411163111
14:53<LordAro>peter1138: i am even more surprised.
14:54<LordAro>TrueBrain: how's that cmake build system coming? :p
14:54<andythenorth>I suspected upgrading laptop would be painful :D
14:56<+michi_cc>LordAro: That's the side effect of silently going C++11, it makes things interesting. Especially if you try any of the compilers listed in the readme.
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14:58<LordAro>michi_cc: heh, true
14:58<LordAro>wait, there's already a 2>&1 in config.lib
14:58<LordAro>what
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15:18<andythenorth>so shall I install GCC? o_O
15:19<andythenorth>oh apparently I can't
15:22<Eddi|zuHause>it's probably easier to hack configure to hardcode your compiler
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15:23<andythenorth>plausible
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15:47<TrueBrain>LordAro: have you checked me trello lately? :)
15:48<TrueBrain>feel free to help with any point on there, so I sooner have time for "fun stuff" ;)
15:51<LordAro>TrueBrain: i don't see it on there :p
15:52<TrueBrain>exactly!
15:52<LordAro>ha
15:52<LordAro>did you put your progress anywhere public?
15:52<TrueBrain>no clue
15:53<TrueBrain>I removed all code-related entries from my trello, as it was depressing me
15:53<LordAro>hah
15:53<TrueBrain>I never get to do the fun stuff :(
15:54<LordAro>andythenorth: can you run `bash -x configure`? (probably best to put output into a gist or something rather than the issue itself)
15:55<TrueBrain>there, I added it to me trello! :D
15:55<LordAro>:)
15:56<TrueBrain>and the code is most likely in a branch on my github, if I would be to guess
15:56<TrueBrain>but didnt check
15:56<LordAro>https://github.com/Truebrain/OpenTTD/tree/cmake so you did
15:58<andythenorth>oof this is a lot of output
15:58<andythenorth>can I pipe it to a file somehow?
15:58<andythenorth>also it reveals paths on my system :|
15:59<TrueBrain>tr [a-z] z
15:59<TrueBrain>anonymouses it
16:04<LordAro>`... > output.txt 2>&1`
16:05<LordAro>TrueBrain: that'll do a bit more than anonymise it :p
16:05<LordAro>andythenorth: is your system particularly different to any other mac system?
16:05<TrueBrain>indeed, it still leaks the length of stuff
16:05<andythenorth>LordAro: no
16:05<andythenorth>it's vanilla
16:05<LordAro>so what are you concerned about? :p
16:05<TrueBrain>I wanted chocolate :(
16:06<andythenorth>LordAro: reveals my login name amongst others
16:06<andythenorth>that's 50% of creds
16:06<andythenorth>I'll find & replace
16:06<TrueBrain>I wouldnt want others to find out my usename is 'supergirl' too!
16:06<LordAro>sed 's/andythenorth/notandythenothing/g'
16:06<LordAro>i'm going to pretend "nothing" was intentional
16:08<andythenorth>LordAro: https://gist.github.com/andythenorth/0bb762a6d81c454da46339de988aeee7
16:09<LordAro>ta
16:09<andythenorth>np
16:09<LordAro>oooh
16:10<LordAro>it actually runs gcc -v | head -n1....
16:10<LordAro>what's the first line of that?
16:13<andythenorth>brb
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16:17<andythenorth>gcc -v | head -n1
16:17<andythenorth>Configured with: --prefix=/Applications/Xcode.app/Contents/Developer/usr --with-gxx-include-dir=/Applications/Xcode.app/Contents/Developer/Platforms/MacOSX.platform/Developer/SDKs/MacOSX10.13.sdk/usr/include/c++/4.2.1
16:21<LordAro>well that's where the 10 comes from
16:21<LordAro>much lol
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18:29<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] JGRennison opened pull request #6881: Fix: Script/AI construction of rail track and waypoints https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/pull/6881
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---Logclosed Wed Aug 08 00:00:56 2018