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#openttd IRC Logs for 2018-08-14

---Logopened Tue Aug 14 00:00:05 2018
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03:31<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] planetmaker commented on pull request #6885: Feature: [NewGRF] Increase size of persistent storage to 256.
03:31<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on pull request #6885: Feature: [NewGRF] Increase size of persistent storage to 256.
03:32<andythenorth>planetmaker: 9 seconds apart :P
03:33<nielsm>time to organize all these limit breakings in a "project"? :D
03:35<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc commented on pull request #6885: Feature: [NewGRF] Increase size of persistent storage to 256.
03:53<andythenorth>nielsm: 'v2'
03:54<andythenorth>I think we should bump grf version and break some more things
03:54<andythenorth>frosch has a wishlist for grf v9 somewhere
03:56<andythenorth>maybe not that one
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04:23<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ghisvail commented on issue #6873: Jukebox not working in the flatpak version
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04:26<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on issue #6873: Jukebox not working in the flatpak version
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05:09<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ghisvail commented on issue #6873: Jukebox not working in the flatpak version
05:17<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on issue #6873: Jukebox not working in the flatpak version
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05:41<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] JGRennison updated pull request #6883: Fix: Depot building cost does not include foundation build cost (#6875)
05:43<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] JGRennison commented on pull request #6883: Fix: Depot building cost does not include foundation build cost (#6875)
05:47<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on issue #6873: Jukebox not working in the flatpak version
05:50<nielsm>this is getting slightly spammy :)
05:50<nielsm>otoh nobody else is talking so not really an issue
05:50<LordAro>yeah, not sure we need comments
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06:11<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ghisvail commented on issue #6873: Jukebox not working in the flatpak version
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06:22<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ghisvail commented on issue #6873: Jukebox not working in the flatpak version
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06:45<Eddi|zuHause>that's exactly what i meant when i said "aren't these better suited for #openttd.notice"
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06:48<eirc>hey ppl I'd like some advice on I thing I wanna make: basically I want to automatically grab whole map screenshots but I'm not sure how to approach "scripting" the client. maybe with a newgrf?
06:49<eirc>maybe I could do it from the console? can it run loops?
06:55<LordAro>eirc: you want a "Giant screenshot"
06:55<LordAro>it's in the game already
06:57<nielsm>the question is about automating it, isn't it?
06:57<nielsm>starting the game, loading a save, producing a screenshot, exiting
06:57<nielsm>I assume
06:58<LordAro>seems like the sort of thing the admin console should be able to do
06:58<nielsm>actually, can headless/dedicated mode make screenshots? the blitter is decoupled from video output so theoretically it should be possible right?
06:58<nielsm>(I don't know if it's in or not)
06:59<LordAro>i don't see why not, theoretically :p
07:00<Eddi|zuHause>it used to be possible, but maybe you need to override the dedicated blitter setting
07:02<Eddi|zuHause>however, making a giant screenshot on the server might lock it up and drop every connection
07:06<nielsm>yes don't do it on a running server :P
07:06<eirc>oh it'd pause the game for everyone? that sucks :/
07:06<nielsm>on unix-like systems it actually ought to be possible to fork() and perform the screenshot on a frozen state of the game, right?
07:07<Eddi|zuHause>yes, similar to how saving works
07:07<nielsm>(and the forked screenshot process can just exit after saving the image)
07:08<Eddi|zuHause>but i don't think that is implemented that way
07:09<eirc>hmmm maybe it'd be better to actually do a save and then load that and grab a screenshot? saves seem to be faster than the giant screenshot
07:09<Eddi|zuHause>also, people regularly disable autosave on servers because they can't stand the interruption
07:09<eirc>I guess a yearly save wouldn't be thaaaaat much of a hussle? :D
07:10<eirc>still the issue is how would one automate this?
07:10<eirc>i'm thinking the general options are console > newgrf > openttd code
07:10<Eddi|zuHause>the game has some simple scripting ability builtin
07:11<nielsm>newgrf can't do screenshots, I'm not sure what you think it would do
07:11<nielsm>maybe you're thinking of a game script
07:11<nielsm>(those can't do screenshots either)
07:11<eirc>this "screenshot [big | giant | no_con]" would work on a script I'd guess
07:12<Eddi|zuHause>the ingame console can do screenshots
07:12<eirc>that cannot go in a script?
07:12<Eddi|zuHause>and you can put the command into a script file
07:12<eirc>but can the script file do a loop or run periodically in any way?
07:13<Eddi|zuHause>there is a script directory with examples
07:14<Eddi|zuHause>if you go the separate savegame route, one of the "on_whatever" script should work
07:20<eirc>oh that's cool i'll check that
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07:24<Wolf01>So, another bridge collapsed in Italy... after the 3 of the last year they didn't learn anything?
07:24<eirc>random destroy tool :)
07:26<eirc>so using scripts to do a periodic screenshot maybe I could monitor the game time from outside and when I consider the time is right I could connect and it'd run the on_client script where I'd put the screenshot giant command maybe?
07:27<eirc>but if screenshot pauses game and connecting pauses it too it'd be very annoying...
07:27<Eddi|zuHause>you could use regular OS tools to see when a new autosave was created
07:28<Eddi|zuHause>then fire up a new "server" that loads that savegame, makes the screenshot and quits again
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07:29<eirc>hmmmm that might just work? :)
07:29<eirc>if a server can screenshot
07:29<eirc>I'll test it later today
07:30<Eddi|zuHause>like i said, you might need to override the blitter
07:31<eirc>that's sounds like a made up word but i'll have it in mind when I reach that point! :)
07:38<Eddi|zuHause>there is a "dedicated" blitter that discards all graphics, so you cannot do screenshots with that. but if you manually set a different blitter, it will internally do all the graphics operations into a buffer. you can't display that buffer, but you can make screenshots from that
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07:53<eirc>ok I see that -b option thanks
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08:22<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: if i understand this right, there was extreme weather, probably combined with a history of neglected maintenance?
08:23<Wolf01>Not so extreme weather, really problable the neglected/inefficient maintenance
08:24<Eddi|zuHause>we've had a few cases of "we must close this bridge because of safety concerns" in germany as well recently
08:25<Eddi|zuHause>nothing has actually collapsed as far as i am aware
08:26<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: i'm sure someone will manage to blame it on the immigrants
08:26<Wolf01>Usually shit happens when brigdes have more than 50 years and not maintained correctly, or they are made of sand instead of cement
08:26<Wolf01>No, they will blame the left wing party for sure
08:27<Wolf01>Which is the only one which at least tried to fix these things
08:27<Eddi|zuHause>oh yeah, definitely not bungabunga-guy's fault
08:28<Wolf01>Bungabunga, lmao :D
08:28<Eddi|zuHause>what does he do nowadays anyway?
08:28<Wolf01>Blame all others
08:42<Eddi|zuHause>i think i'm having a case of
08:46<eirc>Eddi|zuHause: you da man it's all too perfect
08:46<eirc>./openttd -D -b 32bpp-anim -g autosave.sav
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08:46<eirc>in on_server.scr:
08:46<eirc>screenshot giant testexit
08:46<eirc>that's a newline there
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08:47<eirc>and you can automatically get a screenshot from a savegame
08:47<eirc>btw is there a way to tweak transparency settings ?
08:48<Eddi|zuHause>there should be openttd.cfg entries for that
08:48<eirc>awesome yea
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08:55<eirc>trees and signs are out nice
08:55<eirc>now i just got to see how auto saving would affect multiplayer
08:59<eirc>btw this is what I want to automate:
08:59<eirc>the rest after getting the screenshots out of the game I've already automated with imagemagic
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09:10<Eddi|zuHause>i hate gifs for that stuff, because you cannot pause or go backwards
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09:14<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: part of the problem in germany is that since 1990 a large part of the money has been spent on new infrastructure in the east, whereas investment in the west has been neglected, so now most of the "bad" bridges are in the west
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09:21<andythenorth>@seen pikka
09:21<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: pikka was last seen in #openttd 1 day, 0 hours, 9 minutes, and 32 seconds ago: <Pikka> but an additional input cargo here and there might be nice
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09:22<DanMacK>I love how I literally just missed him yesterday LOL
09:22<Eddi|zuHause>it's the singularity, it actively wants to prevent itself
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09:26<Eddi|zuHause>distribution of bridge age in west and east: correlation between age and "health"
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10:29<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 commented on pull request #6885: Feature: [NewGRF] Increase size of persistent storage to 256.
10:30<nielsm>well, now I got ottd building on my laptop, so I could look at stuff there while on vacation if I somehow run out of other things to do
10:31<andythenorth>I am not taking my laptop on holiday never ever :)
10:31<andythenorth>but I have irc
10:33<nielsm>I'm considering wiping windows from the laptop and installing some linux or freebsd on it for development, but that won't be on this side of the vacation :P
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10:37<frosch123>can newgrf communicate with the outside via network?
10:38<andythenorth>can it also write to your filesystem?
10:38<andythenorth>both are vital features imho
10:38<frosch123>i just learned that newgrf can read any memory inside ottd
10:39<andythenorth>also chmod 777
10:39<@peter1138>Where is this misinformation being propagated?
10:40<andythenorth>oh the days when we used to chomd 777 scripts in the cgi-bin dir
10:40<andythenorth>and such lol
10:41<nielsm>I don't think it's supposed to be possible...
10:42<andythenorth>frosch123: is this fact, or is someone trolling?
10:42<andythenorth>is there an 80+ var to arbitrary pointers?
10:42<Eddi|zuHause><frosch123> i just learned that newgrf can read any memory inside ottd <-- are we really sure there are no exploitable buffer overflows?
10:43<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 opened pull request #6886: Fix: Variable 0x85 had no bounds checks.
10:44<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: it's readonly
10:44<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: doesn't mean it can't be used in some kind of escalation
10:46<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: maybe some debug output? not sure what an error would do otherwise
10:46<Eddi|zuHause>error would probably annoy people wanting to be backward compatible
10:47<Eddi|zuHause>like if in the future some flags get added
10:47<Eddi|zuHause>and people go "i want to check this flag, but it should still work in older versions that don't have the flag"
10:47<andythenorth>I just tried exceeding 16
10:47<andythenorth>nmlc ERROR: "generated/firs.nml", line 13234: Maximum register for LOAD_PERM is 15
10:47<andythenorth>but we'd have to patch for that
10:48*andythenorth wondering if nml can guard it somehow
10:48<andythenorth>grf version bump?
10:48<andythenorth>and OpenTTD 2.0 also
10:48<Eddi|zuHause>this has probably nothing to do with grf version
10:48<andythenorth>API change no?
10:49<frosch123>it's no api change if a new ottd can process both old and new newgrf
10:49<frosch123>otherwise it is just an api addition
10:49<andythenorth>so how have we historically handled "this doesn't work in old openttd"
10:50<frosch123>you set the required version on bananas
10:51<andythenorth>probably fine
10:51<frosch123>testing ottd revision in nml code is hardly useful, since you do not know what actions nml creates
10:51<frosch123>unless nml would generate it
10:51<andythenorth>seems like TMWFTLB
10:52<frosch123>also testing for anything more than stable release numbers is not really worth it imo
10:52<andythenorth>interestingly FIRS does test
10:52<andythenorth>if (ttd_platform != PLATFORM_OPENTTD || openttd_version < version_openttd(1, 7, 0, 27769)) { stuff }
10:52<frosch123>so, test for ottd 1.9, if you really want to
10:53<andythenorth>that might be quite redundant
10:56<Eddi|zuHause>well, since revision is broken after the github merge, we need a new method to check capabilities anyway
10:56<frosch123>stable version is enough
10:57<Eddi|zuHause>not really
10:57<frosch123>nightly users can figure out when they need a new version
10:57<Eddi|zuHause>don't assume nightly users actually know what they're doing
10:58<Eddi|zuHause>plus, we've got the whole patchpack thing to work out
10:58<frosch123>if you care, add an a14 entry to list required features
10:59<frosch123>but also patch nml to automatically fill that
10:59<Eddi|zuHause>so duplicate something like patch flags?
10:59<frosch123>no, it's the other way arond
10:59<frosch123>grfs test patch flags, and show an error
10:59<frosch123>ottd reads a14 and shows an error
11:00<Eddi|zuHause>the problem with that method is, you need to update this flag list for almost every spec change
11:00<frosch123>anyway, noone will implement it
11:00<Eddi|zuHause>i don't see that working out in the long run
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11:03<Eddi|zuHause>the thing is, with the linear revision, people had the ability to check exactly for the moment when something was implemented
11:04<Eddi|zuHause>we lost that with the move, and we have this semi-embracement of patchpacks, that will probably grow in the future, where each patch pack implements the feature at a different point in time
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11:06<Eddi|zuHause>and when we get grf authors that go "i implemented this feature, but since i can't detect it, the grf will only work in $patchpack, but not master or release" then everything will fall apart
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11:07<Eddi|zuHause>i'm thinking of things like "set property: bridge height over stations", which you could easily skip by an action7/9, to make it compatible with older versions. but only if you have the ability to detect it
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11:12<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: <- i am 8 years ahead of you
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11:16<Eddi|zuHause>ok, so we do have a means to communicate between patchpack and newgrf. now we need to figure out what to communicate
11:17<Eddi|zuHause>in a way that is simple and easy to maintain for both the patchpack author and the grf author
11:17<Eddi|zuHause>and we still don't have a replacement for the revision
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11:21<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #6886: Fix: Variable 0x85 had no bounds checks.
11:22<LordAro>"ooh, i just got highlighted in #openttd"
11:24<frosch123>it's quite fast
11:24<frosch123>old xmlrpc dorpsgek took like 5 seconds
11:25<Eddi|zuHause>i'm tempted to say most newgrf stuff should just silently (or with debug output) do nothing instead of error.
11:25<Eddi|zuHause>that would eliminate most of the reasons for checking versions
11:25<Eddi|zuHause>like, setting a nonexistent property
11:26<frosch123>that assumes that all newgrf are correct
11:26<frosch123>there have been plenty of newgrfs which broke when ottd added something
11:26<frosch123>because they used something that was not defined before
11:27<Eddi|zuHause>it's the javascript problem
11:27<Eddi|zuHause>if you silently ignore errors and try to Do The Right Thing(tm) you breed a generation of terrible coders
11:28<andythenorth>can't we just define all newgrf as broken :x
11:29<andythenorth>by default :P
11:29<frosch123>i think there is a reserved grfid range for broken grf
11:29<andythenorth>didn't I steal some of it?
11:29<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: we could definitely do that, but i'm fairly sure nobody is helped by that :p
11:30<andythenorth>it's amusing that we all take newgrf so seriously
11:30<andythenorth>when obviously all content is ragingly awful, from every perspective :)
11:30<LordAro>especially that firs thing
11:30<LordAro>i mean what even were they thinking
11:30<andythenorth>you can't even imagine
11:31<andythenorth>you don't know how bad it is inside
11:31<andythenorth>it's literally made of string
11:31<Eddi|zuHause>every piece of code ever is horrible from the inside :p
11:32<Eddi|zuHause>like you think windows is bad from the outside, you couldn't live with yourself if you looked at it from the inside :p
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11:36<LordAro> better link
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11:37<Eddi|zuHause>and now imagine all the code that has been added since then
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11:38<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: oh man that is over 20 years old, but is it still funny? :p
11:40<LordAro>frosch123: :D
11:40<frosch123>later versions patched the make_prog_look_big
11:41<Eddi|zuHause>did they also change "make_50_megabyte_swapfile();"?
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12:23<Thedarkb1-T60>I was thinking of selling preconfigured OpenTTD servers.
12:23<Thedarkb1-T60>Think there'd be a market?
12:27<@peter1138>There are already more servers than players.
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12:31<frosch123>i think at least 3 people tried that before
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12:39<Eddi|zuHause>so far every attempt i have seen at turning openttd into some paid job have failed
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13:37<andythenorth>all the views are wrong apart from <–
13:47<DanMacK>I will play with it LOL
13:57<Wolf01>I never found an use for small powerless engines :(
13:58<andythenorth>shunting apparently :)
13:58<andythenorth>also we haven't un-nerfed narrow guage yet
13:59<Eddi|zuHause>i've used the gmund mog in a game
14:00<Eddi|zuHause>(the rail version)
14:02<andythenorth>how is NG being un-nerfed then?
14:02<andythenorth>reduced town penalty for building it?
14:02<andythenorth>faster loading speed?
14:03<andythenorth>tech tree?
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14:05<frosch123>andythenorth: nerf non-ng
14:05<frosch123>higher curve speed penalty
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14:06<andythenorth>or just un-nerf NG curves
14:06<andythenorth>I've used tilt-bonus on some high speed trains
14:06<andythenorth>because they weren't OP enough already :P
14:06<frosch123>90° is ugly, you cannot make curves much narrower
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14:07<andythenorth>I can't think of any way to re-balance the capacity-per-tile
14:07<andythenorth>basically, no way to have 2 tracks per tile, or 2 station tracks per tile
14:08<andythenorth>I wondered about messing with signal headways or something, but there's not much scope there
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14:09<andythenorth>the town rating respond to clearing a tile, rather than building on it?
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14:12<frosch123>they respond to killing trees
14:12<frosch123>clearing plain tiles or fields is fine
14:12<frosch123>fields are expensive though
14:13<andythenorth>ok no potential there for NG
14:13<andythenorth>so basically, it's low cost and looks cute
14:13<frosch123>NG could have a mountain bonus?
14:13<andythenorth>end of story
14:13<andythenorth>oh, nerf the TE?
14:13<andythenorth>reverse-nerf :P
14:13<frosch123>you have sharp curves in serpentines
14:13<andythenorth>railtype could apply a gradient co-efficient :P
14:13<frosch123>you could just pretend that a long straight slope are actually serpentines
14:14<andythenorth>would that be actually implemented, or just buff TE ridiculously? o_O
14:14<frosch123>i am not sure whether buffing TE and buffing friction coeffieicent are the same thing
14:15<frosch123>would need to check the formulas
14:15<andythenorth>"if only we had state machines"
14:15<andythenorth>we could actually have a winding track within the tile :P
14:15<andythenorth>or switchbacks
14:17<Eddi|zuHause>i'm not sure if this can be represented in the game, but narrow gauge should have a space advantage
14:18<Eddi|zuHause>like narrow curves and lower bridges and cheaper embankment costs
14:18<Eddi|zuHause>or even parallel tracks
14:18<frosch123>looks like you can buff TE up to factor 1
14:19<Eddi|zuHause>or tunnel costs
14:20<andythenorth>parallel tracks? o_O
14:21<Eddi|zuHause>well, really parallel tracks should be possible with normal rail as well, the space requirement for track width is ridiculous
14:21<Eddi|zuHause>but the game grid is horrible for that
14:21<andythenorth>2 track station tiles would be interesting
14:21<DanMacK>The advantage for Narrow Gauge should be low cost traded for capacity
14:21<andythenorth>state machine stuff
14:22<andythenorth>DanMacK: that's just too much common sense :)
14:22<Eddi|zuHause>i was working on an idea for double tracks in / \ direction once
14:22<Eddi|zuHause>but fiddling the track bits in for switches and transition pieces would have been a nightmare
14:25<Eddi|zuHause>i was also having an idea about shunting yards (as depot tiles, with restricting depot consist arrangement to the length of the depot) which would have had 3 parallel tracks
14:37<andythenorth>nielsm: so it's all done, except the nml patch? o_O
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14:51<nielsm>andythenorth well, if it works? :)
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14:51<nielsm>maybe as you pointed out, the newgrf debugging tools need to be extended a bit, not sure
14:51<andythenorth>I haven't changed nml for new prop 28 format
14:51<andythenorth>not sure I'll get that done before holidays
14:52<andythenorth>I think we've debugged the newgrf now, it's probably fine to not have new tools :)
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15:59<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc updated pull request #6885: Feature: [NewGRF] Increase size of persistent storage to 256.
16:03<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc commented on pull request #6885: Feature: [NewGRF] Increase size of persistent storage to 256.
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16:05<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] JGRennison merged pull request #6883: Fix: Depot building cost does not include foundation build cost (#6875)
16:05<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc pushed 1 commits to master:
16:05<DorpsGek_II> - Fix #6875: Depot building cost does not include foundation build cost (#6883) (by JGRennison)
16:05<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Assert1 closed issue #6875: Depots building cost do not include cost of it's foundation
16:13-!-Eddi|zuHause2 is now known as Eddi|zuHause
16:14<Eddi|zuHause>uhm, i think there's an error there, it says "JGR merged ..." but then "michicc pushed..." that can't be both correct
16:14<Eddi|zuHause>and who or what is Assert1?
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16:19<+glx>looks like the wrong data is used
16:20<+glx>Assert1 opened the issue
16:20<+glx>michi closed it
16:21<Eddi|zuHause>so both JGR and Assert1 are instances of the bot using the "opened" name instead of the "closed"
16:22<+glx>as I said wrong data
16:22<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, just wanted to clarify that both are the same error
16:26<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/DorpsGek-irc] glx22 opened issue #5: Wrong data used for merge and close notifications
16:27<+glx>not sure it's the right repo
16:27<LordAro>it is
16:27<LordAro>i was just looking at the source
16:28<LordAro>( )
16:28<+glx>but 3 repos share almost the same code
16:28<LordAro>i'm not entirely sure they should be separate
16:29<+glx>anyway it's the irc bot, so I reported there
16:30<Eddi|zuHause>i would have assumed -irc is DorpsGek and -github is DorpsGek_II or something
16:32<+glx>-github is the github bot
16:32<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think i actually understood all the behind-the-scenes stuff involved there
16:32<Eddi|zuHause>or really any of it :p
16:33<+glx>but maybe it's a bug in -github passing wrong data to -irc
16:33<LordAro>i'm not entirely sure... the api usage doesn't appear to match github's documentation
16:34<LordAro> aha
16:34<LordAro>this looks closer to what i expected
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16:44<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/DorpsGek-irc] LordAro commented on issue #5: Wrong data used for merge and close notifications
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17:05<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on issue #6605: Crash: loading savegame
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17:15<LordAro>ooh, i can close that one
17:15<LordAro>same crash anyway
17:16<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on issue #6605: Crash: loading savegame
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---Logclosed Wed Aug 15 00:00:06 2018