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#openttd IRC Logs for 2018-08-19

---Logopened Sun Aug 19 00:00:08 2018
---Daychanged Sun Aug 19 2018
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01:18<Endymion>Hi, two questions: 1. Is there a way to see the Station Ratings in-game? 2. Is it possible to get the calculation of producers/consumers easily visible to the user?
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02:19<Eddi|zuHause>yes. no.
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03:02<@Alberth>moin
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04:21<Wolf01>o/
04:27<@Alberth>o/
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07:45<Samu>it's difficult to make decent mail services
07:45<Samu>with trucks
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07:51<andythenorth_>o/
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07:58<Samu>Wormnest: any tricks to keep mail services profitable?
08:01<andythenorth_>so
08:01<andythenorth_>FIRS Extreme for each climate? o_O
08:10<Eddi|zuHause>no
08:14<andythenorth_>because...?
08:15<@Alberth>o/
08:16<@Alberth>wouldn't call it "extreme", it's a bad name to indicate the topic of an economy
08:17<@Alberth>likely that holds for "basic" too, but fair enough
08:17<andythenorth_>opposite of “Basic”?
08:17<andythenorth_>oh you said that :)
08:17<@Alberth>"steeltown" gives a much better idea of what to expect,imho
08:19<@Alberth>also, you're missing toyland climate :)
08:20<andythenorth_>oof
08:20<@Alberth>haven't played in quite some time
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08:23<andythenorth_>Delete Extreme? o_O
08:24<@Alberth>why would you want to do that?
08:24<@Alberth>you spend a few weeks developing it :)
08:24<andythenorth_>i kind of wonder what it’s for :)
08:24<andythenorth_>It was never designed
08:25<@Alberth>the name is not so good, but as it's one of a kind, it's "well defined"
08:25<@Alberth>what do you mean, not designed, you changed it for a couple of weeks at least
08:26<andythenorth_>“Max Temperate”
08:26<@Alberth>I'd consider a lucky accident, and leave it at that :)
08:27<andythenorth_>:p
08:27<@Alberth>some players like to play it, well, why not
08:28<@Alberth>not like RL industry chains are carefully designed at global level :p
08:29<andythenorth_>RL industry is much more insane than I ever anticipated
08:29<andythenorth_>all the unexpected inputs and by-products
08:30<andythenorth_>and regional variations
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08:31<Wormnest>Samu: I have never specifically targeted mail
08:33<@Alberth>all local optimization :)
08:36<andythenorth_>this started because I wondered about bananas cargo :p
08:37<Samu>oh ok
08:39<@Alberth>sounds more like a "in a hot country" cargo
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08:40<Eddi|zuHause>grr, just wanted to type a reply
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08:42<andythenorth_>probs
08:42<Eddi|zuHause><andythenorth_> because...? <-- before you even attempt that, you need to get some actual player feedback, instead of just iterating about how you think it's going to play out
08:44<andythenorth_>well. good feedback is valuable
08:44<andythenorth_>but feedback isn’t design
08:45<Eddi|zuHause>game design is hard, there are many player types, each one wants different things out of a game
08:45<Eddi|zuHause>some of those things are mutually exclusive and irreconcilable
08:46<andythenorth_>I’ve sinplified it by only designing for a handful of players :)
08:46<andythenorth_>simplified *
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09:00<Samu>i removed the station spreading feature of LuDiAI
09:00<Samu>well, not exactly removed, I made a setting that disables it
09:01<Samu>now I'm pondering if I default it to disabled, or leave it enabled
09:03<Samu>your thoughts on the matter?
09:09<@Alberth>what does it actually do?
09:09<@Alberth>(if enabled) :)
09:09<Samu>distant join stations
09:09<Samu>with his busses and mail trucks
09:12<Samu>https://imgur.com/mlfw08j
09:12<Samu>like that
09:13<Samu>there are station tiles nonot adjacent to each other but still belong to the same station
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09:15<@Alberth>i'd leave it disabled by default, as that's what users expect
09:16<@Alberth>ie you're more likely to upset users by constructing disjoint stations than you are by not constructing them :)
09:16<@Alberth>you could add a section with suggestions to change for more competitive play in the readme file
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09:17<Samu>when disabled, it doesn't expand them stations :(
09:17<Samu>even adjacently
09:18<Samu>perhaps it could
09:23<@Alberth>you don't need disjoint stations for extending a station, do you?
09:24<@Alberth>if you want to expand a station can't you check first if a simple building of an additional platform is possible?
09:26<Samu>ludiai can't, but i could try implement it
09:27<Samu>ludiai doesn't build a platform if it finds any other within 2 tiles
09:27<Samu>it leaves a space
09:29<Samu>local squareSize = 5;
09:31<Samu>hmm this part of the code was already edited by me for solving the cpu evaluator problem
09:31<Samu>and now I'm editing it even more :(
09:35<Samu>this part was edited in, https://paste.openttdcoop.org/p4rtxmvyh
09:36<Samu>i split it out of the evaluator function and made it basically two functions, this is one of them, the other is the evaluator function which became much smaller, maybe i should post it too
09:36<Samu>ook, here it is https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pgzotajof
09:38<Samu>in the case of expanding a station, the stationId exists and is not null
09:40<Samu>whenever it returns true
09:40<Samu>it means not to use that tile to place a platform
09:41<Samu>if it returns false, it means there are no nearby stations and the tile can be evaluated with the valuatetruckstop function
09:47<@Alberth>code seems fine to me
09:47<@Alberth>not sure what it does exactly, but you likely know :)
09:52<Samu>this is what makes it not place a platform next to the other
09:52<Samu>but only a few tiles away
10:07<@Alberth>looks that way, but clearly you designed it as such for some reason
10:07<@Alberth>was that reason incorrect, or did you change your mind?
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10:45<Samu>this was already part of ludiai, i only split the function in two
10:56<Samu>i give up
10:57<Samu>no expanding of stations even if adjacent
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10:58<Samu>now I'm onto another issue, about adjacent road tiles to the station tile
10:58<Samu>a drivethrough station issue
11:02<Samu>https://imgur.com/h4Biwya
11:03<Samu>there are 4 adjacent tiles it considers
11:03<Samu>the next and previous one in X and Y axis
11:04<Samu>since it didn't find a road on one of the tiles, it reduced the number of adjacent tiles to 3
11:05<Samu>now he's trying to get the nextAdjTile and see if it's the opposite of the adjTile so that it can build a drivethrough in the correct Axis
11:06<Samu>essentially, it wants to find the tiles 58416 for the adjTile and 58418 for the nextAdjTile
11:06<Samu>but it's failing to do so :(
11:07<Samu>when it builds the drivethrough station, the function requires the tile where the station is placed and the next in front of it to get the correct orientation
11:09<Samu>hmm complicated
11:10<Samu>adjTile cannot be tile 58673 and that's what the code has used :(
11:10<Samu>why
11:12<Samu>AIRoad.BuildRoad(adjTile, nextAdjTile
11:12<Samu>adjTile is wrong here
11:41<Wolf01>Eddi|zuHause: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAshphMfY3M mods or dlcs?
11:42<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: mostly mods, as far as i can see
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12:07<Samu>https://paste.openttdcoop.org/peyued1ot
12:07<Samu>could this code be improved?
12:08<Samu>especially the part of using 2 AITileLists
12:08<Samu>being copies
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12:09<Samu>i tried to use the same list, but adjRoadTiles.HasNext() wasn't working properly
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12:30<Wolf01>Eddi|zuHause: which mods do you suggest? I think I'll give a try to move it, traffic manager and I should find some to place lines/road objects
12:31<Eddi|zuHause>there's a mod for oneway rail
12:31<Eddi|zuHause>and some train station stuff
12:32<Eddi|zuHause>last thing i tried was metro overhaul mod
12:32<Eddi|zuHause>but i think i missed something there, i couldn't really get it to work
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12:51<@Alberth>Samu: Why don't you compute all adjacent tiles from a tile that is in the list
12:51<@Alberth>likely only 2 adjacent tiles are enough in most cases
12:53<@Alberth>hmm, always inside the rectangle of the list eh? feels like it is always enough, but not sure
12:56<Samu>they're adjacent to the tile in the middle
12:56<Samu>not adjacent to each other
12:57<Samu>the tile in the middle is the drivethrough station, and it has 2 adjacent tiles, its entrance and exit
12:57<Samu>i am trying to get these entrance and exit tiles
12:57<Samu>to be opposite
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13:14<@Alberth>can't you ask the direction of the road in the middle?
13:14<@Alberth>entry and exist is trivial then
13:14<@Alberth>*exit
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13:18<Samu>no, at that phase I can't
13:19<Samu>the station does not yet exist, these tiles are required to determine it's orientation
13:20<@Alberth>but you know the center tile?
13:20<Samu>yes
13:20<@Alberth>then there are just 2 cases possible
13:20<@Alberth>no need to search for then, you can just create a tileindex one tile away from the center tile
13:21<@Alberth>or am i missing something?
13:26<Samu>the middle tile has gone through other testings
13:26<Samu>it's a "buildable tile"
13:26<Samu>among other stuff
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13:27<Samu>if(! ((AITile.IsBuildable(tile) || AIRoad.IsRoadTile(tile)) && AITile.GetSlope(tile) == AITile.SLOPE_FLAT)) {
13:27<Samu>this is for the station tile
13:27<Samu>it's also been through the evaluator
13:28<Samu>and the nearby station checking stuff
13:28<Samu>essentially, sometimes it is not a road
13:30<@Alberth>sure, but adjacent tiles to a tile are just +/- 1 in either x or y direction
13:30<@Alberth>you don't need to search for them
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13:35<Samu>I don't know how to do it another way :(
13:37<Samu>adjRoadTiles can contain 0, 1, 2, 3 or 4 tiles
13:38<Samu>only tiles with roads are added, in a +/-1 X or Y direction
13:39<Samu>this part of the code is reached in the case adjRoadTiles contain 3 or 4 tiles
13:39<@Alberth>https://paste.openttdcoop.org/p0luyro7m
13:39<Samu>let me see
13:40<@Alberth>untested :)
13:41<Samu>I don't get 4 tiles all the time, sometimes I get 3
13:42<@Alberth>my code only checks for tile existence, not whether they contain road
13:44<@Alberth>but if you construct the pairs of entry/exit, keep them together, so you can either discard them together, or use them together
13:44<@Alberth>thus eliminating the need to find the pair again
13:45<Samu>if (adjRoatTiles.HasItem(tile1) && adjRoatTiles.HasItem(tile2))
13:46<Samu>adjTile = tile1; nextAdjTile = tile2;
13:46<Samu>i see
13:46<Samu>yeah, seems to make the code simpler
13:48<Samu>Utils::getOffsetTile(tile, offsetX, offsetY)
13:48<Samu>i can use this function even
13:49<Samu>makes it shorter
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14:01<Samu>Alberth: https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pqyzjd7sx
14:01<Samu>like that?
14:02<@Alberth>if there is always at least one pair, that seems fine
14:03<@Alberth>you may want to check that though
14:03<Samu>yes, there's always one pair
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14:05<Samu>thx for the help, it became much shorter
14:08<@Alberth>I'd say simpler rather than shorter, but yw :)
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14:22<Samu>@calc 214/25
14:22<@DorpsGek>Samu: 8.56
14:24<Samu>ludiai was unable to build mail aircraft, i just fixed it
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14:25<Samu>i'm now trying to deal with airports with too many airplanes, they can't all land
14:25<Samu>how am I supposed to tackle this
14:28<@Alberth>how do you deal with bus stations with too many buses?
14:31<Samu>if the ai detects too many cargo in an airport, it builds a new aircraft
14:32<Samu>but if the airports become saturated, the profits for each aircraft becomes too small and the ai will then sell them
14:32<Samu>this is a bad situation, got to improve it
14:32<Samu>builds, then sells, then builds, then sells
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14:43<Wormnest>You make a guess of what the route can handle based on distance, airport size and airplane speed
14:44<Wormnest>Besides that you can try to detect if there are planes waiting in hangar for a free spot
14:46<Samu>wrigthai code doesn't accommodate for aircraft speed :(
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14:47<Samu>281
14:47<Samu>@calc 281 / 25
14:47<@DorpsGek>Samu: 11.24
14:47<Samu>11 aircraft
14:47<Samu>on a route of distance 281 manhathan tiles
14:48<Samu>(list2.Count() * 25 > dist)
14:48<Samu>@calc 11 * 25
14:48<@DorpsGek>Samu: 275
14:48<Samu>ah, it builds 12
14:48<Samu>and shall not build more than 12
14:52<Samu>I'm worried about the faster planes
14:54<Samu>looks like 25 is a good number
14:55<Samu>i'm not getting that many airplanes waiting to land
14:55<Samu>1 airplane each 25 tiles
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14:59<Samu>perhaps i shall increase
15:00<Samu>on a route with 12 aircraft, there's always 2 or 3 trying to land
15:00<Samu>@calc 281/9
15:00<@DorpsGek>Samu: 31.2222222222
15:00<Samu>31, hmm 30?
15:01<Samu>@calc 9 * 30
15:01<@DorpsGek>Samu: 270
15:01<Samu>hmm no, got to be more
15:01<Samu>@calc 9 * 35
15:01<@DorpsGek>Samu: 315
15:01<Samu>@calc 9 * 31
15:01<@DorpsGek>Samu: 279
15:18<Samu>dang, speed matters :(
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15:30<Samu>slow management by wrightai
15:31<Samu>hmm
15:42<V453000>the colour-trains-by-group didn't make it to trunk yet? :(
15:42<V453000>also hi :)
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16:03<@planetmaker>ho ho
16:07<Eddi|zuHause>is it christmas already? man time flies so fast
16:10<@Alberth>o/
16:34<Samu>@calc 10 * 35
16:34<@DorpsGek>Samu: 350
16:34<Samu>@calc 9 * 35
16:34<@DorpsGek>Samu: 315
16:34<Samu>ok, it's correct
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17:21<Samu>there is a bug with WrightAI itself
17:21<Samu>doesn't keep track of the correct aircraft used in a route
17:21<Samu>aircraft id
17:22<Samu>waiting for an assert to trigger
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17:41<Samu>ah, I think I know how to replicate
17:41<Samu>a vehicleID 50 crashed and poofs
17:42<Samu>wait, this is complicated to explain
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18:10<AngstyYuri>0hai
18:11<AngstyYuri>Bizarre issue on OpenTTD downloads for 32bit -_-
18:11<AngstyYuri>DL gets stuck at "128kb out of ??? kb" until paused and resumed
18:11<AngstyYuri>Firefox user here
18:14*AngstyYuri is an irritable, straight Russian male with severe alcohol intolerance
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18:53<FLHerne>TrueBrain: ^
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19:12<@peter1138>WFM
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21:11<Eddi|zuHause>Wait For Money?
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---Logclosed Mon Aug 20 00:00:13 2018