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#openttd IRC Logs for 2018-08-20

---Logopened Mon Aug 20 00:00:13 2018
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03:44<Samu>what does rawin and rawget do?
03:46<Samu>and rawget
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05:57<Samu>can someone explain me this
05:57<Samu>rawget and rawset
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05:57<Samu> this.distance_of_route.rawset(vehicle, AIMap.DistanceManhattan(tile_1, tile_2));
05:58<Samu>and then somewhere else in the code
05:58<Samu> local dist = this.distance_of_route.rawget(v);
05:59<Samu>does that mean dist will be executing AIMap.DistanceManhattan(tile_1, tile_2)
05:59<Samu>or does it get the value that was previously stored?
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06:16<Samu>"without employing delegation" - what does this mean?
06:17<@peter1138>What it says.
06:19<Samu>explain me plz
06:21<Samu>local dist = this.distance_of_route.rawget(v);
06:21<Samu>local real_dist = AIMap.DistanceManhattan(order1_location, order2_location);
06:21<Samu>assert(real_dist == dist);
06:22<Samu>it never triggered
06:22<Samu>i fail to understand what rawget and rawset is doing
06:22<@peter1138>I'd guess that real_dist and dist are not equal.
06:22<Samu>they've been always equal
06:23<Samu>sometimes it doesn't make sense that they're equal
06:23<Samu>and yet, they are
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07:41<Samu>ok, i'm about to finish these fixes
07:42<Samu>the road component became a bit worse, for some reason :(
07:42<Samu>but the air component became better
07:43<Samu>i changed the way it evaluates towns for deploying bus or mail services
07:43<Samu>instead of looking at town population, it looks at passenger or mail production
07:43<Samu>apparently, this makes it do worse :(
07:44<Samu>i expected the opposite
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09:15<Borg>I have weird PF issue again
09:16<LordAro>was it ever proved to be a PF issue, rather than a signalling issue?
09:17<Borg>it is PF... it preffers path, that imo should be used as last resort
09:17<Borg>ha! but fixed it
09:18<Borg>weird to me.. but adding one way block signals fixed it
09:18<Borg>wanna screenshot?
09:18<LordAro>no, i want to continue to guess wildly
09:19<Samu>borg, are you creating an ai'
09:20<Borg>Samu: no, just playing game
09:21<Borg>when I remove those 2 block signals on main path, trains somehow prefer to go via depot.. but it should be used only for train maintenance (goto depot on maint)
09:21<Borg>adding them, fixed problem...
09:22<Borg>not sure way tho.. since green lights does not count as negative penalty.
09:22<LordAro>that'll probably be it
09:22<LordAro>it gets them closer to the station
09:23<Borg>well.. but there is no direct route.. they need to go thro depot
09:23<Borg>and depot should be penalized?
09:23<LordAro>depots are penalised, iirc
09:23<Borg>yeah.. there is YAPF setting
09:23<Borg>so.. wth there still goes via that route..
09:24<Borg>yapf.rail_depot_reverse_penalty = 5000
09:24<LordAro>but seriously, YAPF has been part of the game for over a decade with no significant issues - you've got signalling issues, not PF bugs
09:24<Borg>yapf.maximum_go_to_depot_penalty = 2000
09:25<Borg>LordAro: can u explain me then where the issue is in?
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09:28<eirc>they have orders for that station?
09:28<Borg>yes.. 3 orders
09:28<Borg>1) goto that station (full load any)
09:28<Borg>2) goto to other station
09:28<Borg>3) goto to depot (maintenance)
09:29<eirc>there's a way out of the station on the other side?
09:29<eirc>towards the other station?
09:29<Borg>let me do bigger screenshot
09:31<Borg>so.. this is illogical to me.. except when depot penalty is not calculated..
09:32<eirc>there are trains waiting on the signals in front?
09:32<eirc>when the train makes the wrong decision
09:32<eirc>if those are occupied then all that's left is the depot
09:32<Borg>then the train makes wrong decision.. one track is occupied at station.. left one
09:33<Borg>not really
09:33<Borg>depot penalty is so big. it should not be choosed.. they should go straight.. as it happen when those block signals are there
09:33<Borg>definitly.. something fishy is happening
09:33<Borg>let me remove block signals.. and observe
09:34<Borg>tada.. and he goes to the depot.. WHY WHYYYYYYYY
09:34<eirc>there's no train waiting in the bays in front right?
09:35<eirc>or just exiting maybe a part of it is blocking
09:35<Borg>exit is never blocked. for now
09:36<Borg>minimal traffic
09:37<Borg>I will post extra screenshot
09:37<eirc>if you have a train exiting but not full exited it's still blocking
09:37<Borg>how it should work.. but w/o that extra signals
09:39<Borg>anyway.. this is how it should work....
09:39<Borg>when those 2 block signals are there.. trains basicaly will always choose right patch. and even when its totaly blocked.. they will just wait on that PBS..
09:39<Borg>unless.. train needs maintenance.. it will go to depot
09:40<eirc>in this last screenshot if you didnt have the extra signals both bays would be full
09:40<Borg>now, if anyone can explain me.. why this dont happen when I remove those 2 block signals
09:40<eirc>so train would only have the depot available
09:40<Borg>eirc: I can bring more trains there.. everything will work still
09:40<Borg>wait.. I will post 3th screenshot
09:40<eirc>if you stop two trains behind those two
09:40<eirc>and bring a 5th it will go to depot
09:40<eirc>unless you make even more waiting bays
09:41<Borg>lets see
09:41<Borg>I guess probably he will not
09:41<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] YodasWs opened issue #6887: Add layer showing boundaries for local authorities
09:41<Borg>NOPE.. he didnt go to depot :D as expected
09:41<eirc>try this
09:41<Borg>watch screenshot
09:42<eirc>try removing ALL trains from the waiting bays
09:42<eirc>and get a new train in
09:42<Borg>when all bays at station and waiting tracks are clear.. train will go ok
09:42<Borg>but as FAR as left station bay is occupied.. he goes via depot :/
09:43<Borg>eirc: last screenshot.. train waiting there is AS expected.. because cost to depot is way too high..
09:43<Borg>he should wait at PBS and bleed ;)
09:43<Borg>now.. why this happens only. when I have those damn 2 block signals at waiting tracks
09:43<Borg>once I remove them.. everything collapses ;/
09:45<eirc>hmm here's an idea
09:45<Borg>eirc: got 1.7.2 by chance? I can spawn server
09:45<eirc>the depot seems to only be connected to the right station platform
09:46<eirc>i'm at work :P
09:46<Borg>this will be 10000 times easier to observe and debug
09:46<eirc>try connecting it to the left one too
09:46<Borg>eirc: hmm but I want it that way.. train from depot should not be on priority too much
09:47<Borg>but lets see what it will change
09:47<Borg>eirc: nothing changed
09:48<Borg>when I only removed last block signal... those bastards started to go via depot
09:48<Eddi|zuHause>Borg: did you change the penalties from the ingame console, or in the config file?
09:49<Borg>Eddi|zuHause: yes, I have them slighty adjusted. true
09:49<Borg>yapf.rail_look_ahead_signal_p0 = 500
09:49<Borg>yapf.rail_look_ahead_signal_p1 = -100
09:49<Borg>yapf.rail_look_ahead_signal_p2 = 0
09:49<Eddi|zuHause>Borg: we need all of them
09:49<eirc>depot = -1000 hahahaha
09:49<Eddi|zuHause>Borg: that lookahead does not work with path signal
09:49<Borg>yapf.rail_look_ahead_max_signals = 5
09:50<Borg>eirc: hmm?
09:50<Eddi|zuHause>Borg: the lookahead is meant to be a load balancing measure for block signals
09:51<Eddi|zuHause>Borg: with path signals, the balancing is achieved with the path reservation penalty
09:51<Borg>hmm, okey, lets remove block signal close to depot
09:52<Borg>okey.. that fixed problem indeed
09:52<Borg>now everything works as expected..
09:52<Eddi|zuHause>(note that the path reservation penalty is also applied with block signals, as every train will reserve the tiles it stands on)
09:53<Borg>but now.. I can scale up depot entry :/
09:53<Borg>I cant I mean
09:53<Eddi|zuHause>Borg: the penalties are hidden for a reason, because changing them will cause any number of weird side effects like this
09:54<Borg>I think they arent that for now.. I just make curve a bit more aggresive.. you 100% sure that bringing them to default will fixe the issue?
09:54<Borg>AFAIK p2=5
09:54<Eddi|zuHause>Borg: you need to learn how the penalties are calculated, and how they are added up in each path
09:54<Borg>thats defult
09:54<Borg>well I did RTFS
09:54<Borg>and I hope I understand that...
09:54<Borg>I dont get why depot penalty = 2000 still does not overweight the path
09:54<LordAro>defaults haven't been changed in over a decade
09:54<LordAro>no one else complains :p
09:54<Eddi|zuHause>Borg: you need to first be sure what you are actually trying to achieve
09:55<Borg>LordAro: yeah, noone else means.. openttdcoop guys doing weird paths...
09:55<LordAro>no, it really means no one else
09:55<Borg>Eddi|zuHause: okey, I want this: 2 main tracks should be used always... depot track should be used ONLY for maintenance trains
09:56<Borg>Eddi|zuHause: this works fine now.. when there is no block signals and no signals near depot..
09:56<Eddi|zuHause>Borg: still, we need ALL your penalties
09:56<Borg>BUT.. when I want to scale up depot service path.. I will add extra tracks and block signals.. and this will collapse unless I add block signals on main track too
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09:58<Borg>so it seems I need to learn how to use block signals workarounds
09:58<Borg>its ok.. I can pair block + pbs
10:00<Eddi|zuHause>yapf.rail_firstred_exit_penalty = 0 <-- why?
10:00<Borg>I dont remember.. its ooold config...
10:00<Borg>what I should put here?
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10:02<Wolf01>We need a configurator for that stuff, I always broke things more than fixed every time I changed the values a bit
10:02<Eddi|zuHause>should be 10000 i think
10:02<Eddi|zuHause>the lastred also
10:02<Eddi|zuHause>lastred_exit i mean
10:02<Borg>Wolf01: well, I adjusted it long time ago.. and it worked very well..
10:03<Borg>but.. stuff seems got broken abit w/ PBS
10:03<Borg>w/ I love :)
10:03<LordAro>Wolf01: "delete all pathfinder settings"
10:03<Wolf01>That's what I did every time
10:03<Borg>Eddi|zuHause: okey, lets adjust that and see what happens
10:03<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, a really awfully long time ago i put my depot penalty at 50000
10:03<Eddi|zuHause>Borg: those two penalties probably don't affect your case
10:04<Borg>yep.. it seems it dont
10:04<Borg>lets wait for few trains tho
10:04<Borg>first one already went to depot
10:04<Borg>another one too
10:05<Eddi|zuHause>Borg: you have a bunch of 0s around, that should never be done
10:05<Eddi|zuHause>put it at 100 to negate the effect
10:05<Borg>why? its ok.. because cost+=
10:05<Borg>no.. 100 does NOT negate the efect
10:05<Borg>0 does
10:05<Eddi|zuHause>100 is one default tile
10:05<Borg>but signal is not default tile
10:06<Eddi|zuHause>yapf.rail_crossing_penalty = 0 <-- this means a road crossing has LESS penalty than a default tile
10:06<Borg>Eddi|zuHause: this settings work very well..
10:06<Borg>I had balance issues when I had road crossing on one of paths
10:06<Eddi|zuHause>it's still not relevant to your case here, but it shows how careless you are with the settings
10:06<Borg>and trains preffered the one w/o road corssing.. making jams
10:06<Borg>please.. im not careless..
10:07<Borg>Ive do extensive testings to understand the problem
10:07<Borg>and 100 didnt worked..
10:07<Borg>0 worked
10:07<eirc>presignals would work too ;)
10:07<Borg>I stopped using presignals.. once I learned how PBS cool is
10:07<Borg>I only use PBS + block signals
10:08<Borg>and 95% of time PBS works damn amazing (after some tuning)
10:08<Borg>when it does NOT work.. I rtfs + test.. and it works
10:08<Borg>this case is beyond my understand..
10:08<Borg>depot penalty is high.. 2000
10:08<Borg>path should not be chosed because even jammed track is cheaper
10:08<Borg>and it works correct only when I have block signals before PBS on main track
10:09<Borg>OpenTTD definitly lack of penalty signals..
10:09<Eddi|zuHause>your huge station incurs a high base penalty, which might throw off the pathfinder
10:09<Borg>I wonder why its not there yet
10:09<Borg>Eddi|zuHause: even if.. its symmetrical for all tracks..
10:10<Borg>and its not huge :) just 14 tiles.. max here
10:10<Borg>I never build biggers
10:10<Borg>but I like those 26 + 2 locos trains :D
10:10<Borg>but not yet.. its too early.. waiting for SH'40'
10:10<Borg>and bigger production
10:11<Borg>okey, so no real explaination?
10:11<Eddi|zuHause>nothing obvious
10:11<Eddi|zuHause>next step would be to look at the actual calculated penalty
10:11<Borg>yeah.. that would be neat
10:11<Eddi|zuHause>not sure how to access that
10:11<Borg>is there a way?
10:12<Eddi|zuHause>there might be pathfinder debug values
10:12<Borg>yeah, I tried it once.. so its best to build test track w/ few trains only
10:13<Borg>because its hard to correlate output w/ particual train in particual moment
10:13<Borg>BUT... at least now I have workaround.. that at least I partialy understand
10:13<Borg>once there is at least one block signal on balance path, look ahead kicks in..
10:14<Borg>now I have PBS + block signal right before PBS.. everything works smoothly
10:15<Borg>addint more block signals on main track doesnt break anything too.. make traffic more smooth.. leaving maintenance track for depot route only
10:21<eirc>btw you could also decouple the station and the depot so you don't have to do all that weirdness
10:21<eirc>have the line to the depot start and end earlier
10:22<Borg>eirc: but its harder to manage..
10:22<Borg>now I just clone train.. and let it go
10:22<eirc>is it though?
10:23<Borg>w/ that setup, I need to choose w/ depot to use? to balance them?
10:23<eirc>you can have it some place before the station but not mixed with the entrances
10:23<Borg>ahh.. yeah.. in middle..
10:24<Eddi|zuHause>Borg: you can set a waypoint, and trigger a "go to nearest depot" instead of "go to specific depot"
10:24<Borg>Eddi|zuHause: no no.. thats too risky
10:24<Borg>I play using getto junctions
10:25<Borg>I heavly reuse and rebuild tracks once game progresses..
10:25<Borg>trains need to get exacly where they need..
10:25<Eddi|zuHause>how is that relevant?
10:25<Borg>well if trains will go to some depot no in his default path. I will get jams..
10:25<Eddi|zuHause>you ensure you know where the trains are by sending them to the waypoint
10:26<Borg>I didnt use waypoints from looong time.. YAPF does decent job at path finding
10:26<Eddi|zuHause>the "go to nearest depot" will adhere to the maximum penalty, so it won't pick one across the map
10:26<Borg>I just dont way trains go where they shouldnt go.. :)
10:26<Borg>yeah.. but when u have centralized stations
10:26<Borg>it could be triggered in baaad place
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10:26<Eddi|zuHause>no, it will be triggered exactly at the waypoint
10:27<Eddi|zuHause>that's why you have the waypoint
10:27<Borg>hmm Ill think about improvemnt.. for now at least.. there is workaround that makes me happy
10:28<Borg>lets see how things will look at 2000+ year..
10:28<Eddi|zuHause>1: goto waypoint, 2: if need servicing, go to nearest depot, 3: goto station [...]
10:29<Eddi|zuHause>i think you need to leave some small distance between the waypoint and the split, so the train doesn't reserve a path past the split before deciding to go to the depot
10:29<Borg>yeah.. I always do so..
10:30<Eddi|zuHause>because then it cannot undo the reservation
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10:30<Eddi|zuHause>so it won't find the depot, as it would have to make a complete roundtrip
10:30<Eddi|zuHause>and that is too far
10:30<Borg>yeah. undo reservation ;P thats why im playing 1.7.2 now :)
10:30<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think reservation changed in 1.8.0
10:34<Borg>there is bug.. when u stop train.. it doesnt cancel reservation
10:34<Borg>in 1.7.2 its correct
10:34<Eddi|zuHause>are you sure?
10:35<Eddi|zuHause>i'd say the cancelling is the bug
10:35<Borg>lets try it
10:35<Borg>why? when u stop train.. manual.. full stop
10:35<Borg>it should damn cancel everything
10:36<Borg>it makes weird bugs
10:36<Borg>in 1.8.0 I couldnt send train to depot manually
10:36<Eddi|zuHause>it would cause a random other train to start up if you cancel the reservation
10:36<Borg>to take it off from track
10:36<Borg>because I stopped him.. ordered to go to depot.. and he said he could not find the path
10:36<Eddi|zuHause>try reversing the train to cancel the reservation
10:36<Borg>Eddi|zuHause: and it should go and start up.. its all fine
10:36<Borg>we have signals to do protection
10:37<Borg>I had that discuss here month ago..
10:37<Borg>and ppl agreed its bug in 1.8.0
10:37<Borg>I have have screenshot
10:38<Borg>watch the stopped train and path reservation..
10:38<Borg>I rolled back to 1.7.2 because it pissed me off a lot
10:40<Borg>but it might be same in 1.7.2
10:40<Borg>lets try it
10:41<lethosor>Samu: not sure if you figured out rawget/set, but explains delegation. From what I understand, rawget looks in just the table itself and nowhere else.
10:42<Borg>okey.. its same in 1.7.2 too
10:42<Borg>BUG immo
10:42<Eddi|zuHause>it might be annoying behaviour, but it's definitely not a bug
10:43<Borg>okey, so stopped train should not cancel reservation maybe.. but once u click go to depot.. it should recalc maybe
10:43<Eddi|zuHause>because the feature works exactly as it was designed
10:43<Eddi|zuHause>that's not a bug, that's a feature request
10:44<Borg>so I can go back to 1.8.0 :)
10:44<Borg>as I changed depot layouting.. seems im not affected that much :)
10:44<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, place the signal as close to the depot split as possible, and the situation should rarely come up
10:44<Eddi|zuHause>and if it comes up, hit the reverse button
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11:03<Samu>AITile::IsBuildableRectangle this function doesn't do what I think it does
11:04<Samu>I need to look for another function
11:11<Samu>I have a rectangle with the top tile coordinates 94, 94 and bottom tile coordinates 106, 106
11:13<Samu>I want to expand it with the coverage area of 4 tiles of an airport of size 4, 3
11:16<Samu>I want top coordinates to become 91, 92 and the bottom coordinates to stay the same 106, 106
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11:16<Samu>hmm how am I gonna do this
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11:19<Samu>if i place the airport sized 4x3 at tile 91, 92, the tile 94, 94 will contain the bottom tile of the airport
11:19<Samu>tier 91,92
11:19<Samu>tile 94,94
11:20<Samu>if i place the airport sized 4x3 at tile 106,106, that tile is the top tile of the airport
11:21<Samu>now how to account the coverage area into this
11:24<Samu>it's just a +4 +4
11:25<Samu>tile 110,110 and tile 87, 88
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12:05<nielsm>hi andythenorth_
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12:28<TrueBrain>FLHerne: tnx for the highlight :)
12:28<TrueBrain>seems to be a local issue, so unless I receive another ping, going to completely ignore it :D (but a ping is important; as 1 ping is noise, 2 pings is weird, 3 pings is an issue :P)
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13:01<andythenorth_>phone irc is lame
13:01<andythenorth_>won’t hold a connection
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13:12<Andythenorthqwe>Web irc?
13:14<Andythenorthqwe>Quite unusable on phone :) Can’t see where I’m typing this :)
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13:19<nielsm>reasons to bring a real computer if you're traveling and might want to go on irc
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13:19<Mutter>Different irc client :p
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13:22<andythenorth>So I am planning to rek FIRS more :)
13:22<Eddi|zuHause>but, does it hold the connection? (i'm assuming the phone goes in some kind of suspend mode which drops connections)
13:22<andythenorth>I think it’s iOS doing exactly that yes
13:23<Eddi|zuHause>other solution would be a "bouncer"
13:23<andythenorth>But trying a new client is some sort of empirical test
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13:23<Eddi|zuHause>means you'll still drop the connection, but the bouncer won't annoy us with your constant leaving and rejoining :p
13:23<andythenorth>Yes there is that
13:24<Eddi|zuHause>(it will also notify you of messages while you were absent)
13:24<andythenorth>So I should drop Supplies from FIRS?
13:24<Eddi|zuHause>from all of FIRS?
13:24<andythenorth>In favour of Realistic input cargos?
13:24<andythenorth>Up to 16 of them
13:25<Eddi|zuHause>i'd say no, but you can diversify it in the more extreme economies
13:25<andythenorth>Tractors -> farms
13:25<nielsm>"this farm goes through fifty tractors a month, what the hell are they doing?!"
13:26<andythenorth>Tractor Parts?
13:26<Eddi|zuHause>engines? tyres? harvesting blades?
13:29<Eddi|zuHause>electronic guidance systems?
13:29<Eddi|zuHause>gps map data updates?
13:29<nielsm>how about animal feed, fertilizer, pesticides
13:29<andythenorth>John Deere DMCA protected software modules
13:29<andythenorth>My rationale might be bogus
13:29<Eddi|zuHause>"Mutter" is a very difficult to google name for an irc client
13:29<andythenorth>I just need something to design on holiday
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13:29<nielsm>patented genetically modified seed
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13:29<andythenorth>OTOH FIRS got started because I was bored on holiday
13:29<Eddi|zuHause>it's like the 6th entry for "mutter chat"
13:30<Wolf01>andythenorth: did you receive the notification about wallyweb issues with catenary?
13:30<Eddi|zuHause>all other google entries are completely unrelated
13:30<Wolf01>I should make him come here to discuss that changes he needs
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13:30<andythenorth>Wolf no I missed that :)
13:31<andythenorth>I have blanked NRT from my mind :)
13:31<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: rip out the current ridgid catenary drawing code, replace it with something closer to the elrail code, which places individual poles
13:32<Wolf01>Blank tanks and restart brainstorming on what needs to be polished and finished in NRT :P
13:32<andythenorth>Didn’t catenary already get split up?
13:32<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: i'd still say that is something completely separate from NRT
13:32<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, gtg
13:32<andythenorth>Tanks is not here on my holiday btw
13:32<Wolf01>Nah, there is the drawing glitch
13:33<Eddi|zuHause>problem is the overlapping bounding boxes
13:33<Eddi|zuHause>the game cannot resolve sprite order correctly, because the catenary bounding box is so huge
13:34<Eddi|zuHause>the problem can probably be hidden by reducing the bounding box size
13:34<Eddi|zuHause>but it'll probably resurface at some point in other places, if it's not completely redesigned
13:34<andythenorth>Will that work when people want to abuse catenary?
13:35<Eddi|zuHause>like i said, it will resurface :p
13:35<Wolf01>They are alreading abusing catenary
13:36<andythenorth>Yes that’s what I mean :)
13:36<andythenorth>Is it actually a problem?
13:36<Eddi|zuHause>it's definitely a valid problem
13:36<Eddi|zuHause>but i really gtg
13:36<Eddi|zuHause>like 10 minutes ago
13:37<Wolf01>Also I think I'll get that ratt roads grf, it looks really valid and complete... but with only 15 roadtypes is limited... that mean I must vote yes for 64 roadtypes :P
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13:41<andythenorth>So is NRT broken or not? :)
13:41<andythenorth>There was some newgrf cost bug?
13:41<Wolf01>That was a wrong sign in the code
13:42<Wolf01>Because it seem I'm not able to copypaste right
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14:09<Mutter>I could leave FIRS alone
14:10<Mutter>And do a ship set
14:10<Mutter>Or NARS Horse
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14:18<Samu>woah, finding tiles are quick
14:18<Samu>finding a suitable tile to place an airport
14:18<Samu>that is
14:18<Samu>it does not consider that many tiles
14:20<frosch123>nicks are overrated
14:21<Wolf01>I should change mine too, as I don't use this one anymore in other places
14:22<frosch123>you can only do that when you bring another animal as replacement
14:22<Wolf01>A human is enough?
14:23<Wolf01>Too bad it is already used, and I don't want to append another "01" :P
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16:29<andythenorth>maybe I rek Steeltown
16:29<andythenorth>lots of fun reading to do for that
16:31<andythenorth>is dolomite equivalent to limestone? o_O
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---Logclosed Tue Aug 21 00:00:15 2018