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#openttd IRC Logs for 2018-08-21

---Logopened Tue Aug 21 00:00:15 2018
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02:03<@Alberth>moin
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04:51<Samu>is there a way to get the refit cost of a vehicle if I have the vehicle?
04:51<Samu>if I don't have*
04:52<Samu>more precisely, refit cost of an engine
04:52<Samu>to cargo x
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04:59<Wolf01>Moin
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05:31<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] vulvulune commented on issue #6887: Add layer showing boundaries for local authorities https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/issues/6887#issuecomment-414612671
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06:02<@Alberth>moin
06:03<@Alberth>Samu: I don't know, is there a call to obtain refit cost at all?
06:05<@Alberth>ie usually you can play the 'reverse information' game here. you need information X, so find all calls that provide X. These calls need other information Y. If you have Y, you're done, else, find all calls that provide Y. These calls need other information Z. If you have Z, ...
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06:33<@planetmaker>hm
06:33<@planetmaker>hi :)
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06:46<@Alberth>hi hi
06:47<@Alberth>openttdcoop is very persistent in keeping its users here :p
06:48<@peter1138>@seen yexo
06:48<@DorpsGek>peter1138: yexo was last seen in #openttd 5 years, 37 weeks, 5 days, 21 hours, 31 minutes, and 57 seconds ago: <Yexo> <NGC3982> The station glitches are CHIPS related. I adressed it to Andy the other day, and it seems like it's b0rked in some way. <- it's still in the issue tracker for CHIPS, but I haven't had time to look at it yet
06:56<@planetmaker>very persistent, yes :P
06:57<@planetmaker>yexo vanished rather abruptly.
06:57<@planetmaker>I wonder whether I should weed-out the irc users :)
06:58<Wolf01>How could we tell if that's just his ghost?
06:58<@planetmaker>I can tell by checking connections to the bouncer :P got a ghost-buster there :D
06:59<LordAro>Nov 29th 2012
06:59<LordAro>a thursday
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07:16<@planetmaker>ye ol' times :)
07:19<@Alberth>:)
07:21<LordAro>i've been through uni and a year of work since then
07:23<Eddi|zuHause>feels like i haven't done anything since then
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07:42<@peter1138>Double trouble.
07:43<Wolf01>Team rocket
07:43<Wolf01>(he is the cat)
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10:08<Samu>the more I look, the more I want to edit
10:08<Samu>damn me
10:08<@Alberth>:)
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10:09<Samu>i made the airport component to build from intercontinental to heliport
10:09<Samu>it can become too slow in the later years
10:10<Samu>when more airport types are available, because it checks if it can build one from all available
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10:10<@Alberth>nice
10:11<@Alberth>hopefully excluding the airports that are not compatible with the aircraft that you have?
10:11<Samu>it can pair an intercontinental with a heliport
10:12<Samu>ah, aircraft
10:12<Samu>yes, it builds the correct aircraft
10:12<Samu>in this example, it would get helicopters
10:12<@Alberth>spiffy
10:13<Samu>there is a weird issue with HeliStation
10:13<Samu>the top tile is an Hangar
10:14<Samu>when i want to give orders to the aircraft to go to the station, it goes to hangar instead, i had to make a workaround
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10:14<Samu>local order_1 = AIAirport.IsHangarTile(tile_1) ? AIMap.GetTileIndex(AIMap.GetTileX(tile_1), AIMap.GetTileY(tile_1) + 1) : tile_1;
10:14<@Alberth>hmm, pseudo-smart software eh
10:15<Samu>this works
10:16<@Alberth>sort-of, (x, y+1) might not exist
10:16<@Alberth>not in the default airports, but in the general case
10:16<Samu>with the current airports available, it exists
10:16<Samu>yeah, i see what you mean
10:16<nielsm>what if it's a 1x1 heliport
10:17<Samu>doesn't have hangar
10:17<nielsm>oh didn't read the full convo
10:17<@Alberth>or you can, but without roof, fly-in depot :p
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10:23<Samu>I reworked the entire radius to search for a suitable tile to place an airport around a town
10:23<Samu>i reused LuDiAI's estimateRectangle thing
10:23<Samu>and then added my own coding to suit it for the various airport sizes
10:23<@Alberth>nice
10:24<Samu>wrightai was a permanent 30 radius
10:24<Samu>now it's kinda dependant on town size+airport size+ catchment
10:24<Samu>im kinda proud of it, it works well
10:26<@Alberth>sounds like a major improvement indeed
10:30<Samu>for the road vehicle part, I'm not too happy
10:30<Samu>my changes didn't help much
10:30<Samu>i even prevented station spreading, making it perform worse
10:30<Samu>heh
10:31<Samu>kinda expected, but, even with it allowed, it ain't better nor worse the way it was in the original
10:31<@Alberth>it happens, it is always complicated to foresee what the effect is precisely
10:33<@Alberth>it's mostly a sign you don't quite understand the real core of the problem yet
10:33<@planetmaker>hm, umpdated AIs? :)
10:33<@Alberth>more work needs to be done
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10:51<Samu>is it "a hangar" or "an hangar"?
10:51<Samu>my english
10:52<Wolf01>N in front of vocals, H is not
10:56<sparch_>wel
10:56<sparch_>well
10:56<sparch_>it may be not
10:56<sparch_>some vocals have r sound like: a university
10:56<sparch_>you right a university and not an university
10:57<sparch_>*write
11:00<andythenorth>direct reduced iron?
11:00<andythenorth>tyres?
11:00<andythenorth>coke oven offgas?
11:00<andythenorth>tar?
11:01*andythenorth rekking Steeltown
11:03<@Alberth>you already have a tyre plant :p
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11:04<@Alberth>copper looks weird in there
11:06<@Alberth>oh, already gone, nvm
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11:13<andythenorth>yes
11:14<andythenorth>I simplified vehicle chain inputs last year
11:14<andythenorth>can’t remember why
11:14<andythenorth>but ‘vehicle parts’ is limiting for cargo sprites
11:15<@Alberth>copper looks weird too
11:16<@Alberth>I wonder if you a copper chain would work, likely with an opt-out, so you don't need to build two full industry chains
11:16<@Alberth>*adding a copper chain
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11:23<Eddi|zuHause><sparch_> you right a university and not an university <-- that's because english writing is not phonetic. "university" is WRITTEN with a vowel at the start, but it actually does not start with a vowel SOUND
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11:26<Eddi|zuHause>the reverse is also true, like french words which start with a written (but silent) h will shorten their article as if the word starts with a vowel, like "l'hôpital"
11:27<andythenorth>so Tar cargo
11:27<andythenorth>from Coke Oven
11:27<andythenorth>but to where?
11:28<Eddi|zuHause>dinosaur factory
11:28<Eddi|zuHause>*fossil
11:30<andythenorth>ooh
11:30<andythenorth>tarpit
11:30<andythenorth>supply dinosaurs
11:30<andythenorth>produce fossils
11:31<andythenorth>processing time 25m years
11:31<andythenorth>daylength patch? o_O
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11:33<@Alberth>make an aircraft rather than a car :p
11:33<andythenorth>aircraft parts are visually interesting cargo
11:33<@Alberth>and a PITA to draw :p
11:34<Eddi|zuHause>need a beluga plane to carry aircraft parts
11:35<andythenorth>oof
11:35<andythenorth>how did Pinterest scam google images so well
11:36<andythenorth>it’s a plague
11:36<andythenorth>all the search results are pinterest, but behind a scamwall
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11:43<sparch_>Eddi|zuHause, awesome thank you
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11:47<@peter1138>andythenorth, yeah, it's sad eh?
11:48<Wolf01>I put -pinterest in searches
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11:48<Eddi|zuHause>i don't even know what a pinterest is. i don't think i actually ever encountered it
11:49<@Alberth>Eddi: nah, aircraft is too big if you need a beluga
11:49<LordAro>maybe it needs a belugas instead
11:49<@peter1138>:D
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11:51<andythenorth>oof phone irc I give up :p
11:51<andythenorth>it’s remarkably bad
11:53<andythenorth>did anyone finish NRT yet? :p
11:57<Wolf01>I should un-lazy me
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11:59<andythenorth>rekking steeltown is really hard :(
12:00<andythenorth>it’s very lacking in weak spots to poke at
12:00<andythenorth>flawed things are easier to mess with :|
12:05<@Alberth>so, don't fix it :p
12:06<andythenorth>i am concluding same thing
12:07<andythenorth>steeltown is my favourite economy so far eh
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12:18<Samu>if I limit the game to 50 airplanes, a crashed aircraft prevents me from buying another
12:18<Samu>it would be the 51
12:18<Samu>how do I deal with this
12:18<Samu>i feel like not dealing with it at all
12:20<@Alberth>crashed airplane disappears by itself, doesn't it?
12:20<Samu>yes
12:21<Samu>but i am catching the event while the aircraft is in crashed state
12:21<Samu>i can't create the replacement :(
12:21<@Alberth>ah
12:21<@Alberth>why not count non-crashed aircraft regularly, once a crash happened?
12:22<acklen>or queue the replacement task until the plane is cleared
12:22<@Alberth>or maybe simply always do that
12:23<@Alberth>or store the crashed plane, like acklen says, and then regularly try to build a new aircraft until it works
12:23<@Alberth>or until after some X months
12:24<@Alberth>if you automatically adjust number of planes on a route, it will happen automagically without you doing anything special, I would think
12:25<Samu>it kinda does that already, but it prioritizes stations with the largest amount of cargo waiting
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12:25<Samu>might not be a direct replacement
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12:30<@Alberth>doesn't sound like a bad solution given the small amount of work you have to do :)
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12:39<Wolf01>BBl
12:47<Samu>dayum, starting a game in 2040, it takes toooo long to find a suitable location for an airport :(
12:47<Samu>have to think
12:48<Samu>how would I improve this
12:48<Samu>maybe I could look at town noise
12:50<Samu>too slow for my liking, it's been 10 years and still no airport
12:51<@Alberth>start with bigger towns
12:52<@Alberth>or towns that are quite flat
12:52<@Alberth>or find open space first perhaps?
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12:56<Samu>i think the order I'm checking this matter
12:57<Samu>i'm testing if i can build an intercontinental airport first, it tests in all towns from a to z if it can be placed. if it can't, then it next tests intercontinental, starting again from a to z
12:57<Samu>i think the order has to be improved
12:57<Samu>it keeps testing for every airport tile, repeating a to z
12:58<Samu>erm, airport type*
12:59<Samu>i think i want to get the town a first, then test the 9 different airport types in it
12:59<Samu>town 'a'
13:00<Samu>it went from testing 1 type of airport into 9
13:00<Samu>that's what's increasing the time
13:01<Samu>maybe i'll keep the best 10 towns
13:01<Samu>then it doesn't really have to search them all
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13:01<Samu>yeah, less towns to search
13:02<Samu>but i still wanted to let it try the lesser towns
13:02<Samu>hmm :(
13:03<Borg>*snort*
13:07<@Alberth>try the smaller airport first, if that doesn't fit, no need to test anything after that
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13:10<@Alberth>seems to work doesn't it ?
13:10<Samu>heh, that would be mass heliports
13:10*happpy slaps Borg around a bit with a large fishbot
13:10<@Alberth>why? just because the heliport fits doesn't mean you can't try other airports too
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13:11<Samu>the current way I've coded this, if it starts with heliports, the chances of it being built is likely 100%
13:11<happpy>Sorry rone butern borg
13:12<Samu>i start with the biggest noisy airport and go all the way down to the lowest noisy airport
13:13<Samu>so maybe i should filter out towns that don't match the noise of the airport type i'm currently testing
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13:13<Borg>happpy: huh?
13:13<@Alberth>you can do both, I think
13:13<Samu>sec, let me get my code
13:14<Samu>heh, it's kinda large https://paste.openttdcoop.org/p1najb3xj
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13:15<Samu>it starts with BuildAirportRoute
13:15<Samu>that code is executed first
13:19<@Alberth>I'd suggest to first try to find the set of airports that can be build, and as a second step which one to actually build
13:20<@Alberth>the the former can be done faster if you take noise and airport size into account
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13:29<Samu>that stationadjacent code is complicating things
13:29<Samu>hmm
13:29<Samu>maybe not
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13:47<Samu>the adjacent code is forcing me to test twice
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13:47<Samu> if (!AIAirport.BuildAirport(tile, airport_type, adjacentStationId) && !AIAirport.BuildAirport(tile, airport_type, AIStation.STATION_NEW)) continue;
13:47<Samu>i guess i can improve a bit
13:48<@Alberth>quite, you can add flags whether to test each case
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13:53<Samu> if (adjacentStationId != AIStation.STATION_NEW && !AIAirport.BuildAirport(tile, airport_type, adjacentStationId) || !AIAirport.BuildAirport(tile, airport_type, AIStation.STATION_NEW)) continue;
13:54<Samu>this will do it
13:56<@Alberth>somewhat simpler
13:58<Samu>wait a minute
13:58<Samu>im trying in a game if i can distant join an airport to a bus station inside the town
13:59<Samu>it seems noise concerns aren't the issue
13:59<Samu>lol
13:59<Samu>i can happily test it once
14:00<Samu>if (!AIAirport.BuildAirport(tile, airport_type, AIStation.STATION_NEW)) continue;
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14:00<Samu>i was worried i couldn't, lol
14:01*andythenorth wonders if there’s a ranked list of cargo transported worldwide
14:01<andythenorth>by volume/weight
14:02<andythenorth>v4 Extreme is not convincing me, it lacks any concept
14:02<@Alberth>haha, it must have a justifaction :p
14:02<andythenorth>it needs at least an idea
14:03<@Alberth>"I just threw industries on a big heap and this is what came out" :p
14:03<andythenorth>Steeltown is ‘semi-realistic steel industry’ plus ‘many connected industries in small space on map’
14:04<andythenorth>and also ‘cargo input gets horribly reduced in the secondaries’
14:04<andythenorth>so it’s got a theme
14:05<andythenorth>but the graph is such that all the random by products actually feed the main chain, indirectly
14:05<andythenorth>extreme is blah blah
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14:07<andythenorth>so far the concept is
14:08<andythenorth>‘somewhat Germany and Poland’
14:08<@Alberth>I think you're more concerned about it than the players :)
14:08<andythenorth>plus ‘ag chain and industry chain are mostly separate’
14:08<andythenorth>plus ‘most cargos have 2 consumers’
14:08<andythenorth>well, players don’t have to make it :D
14:09<andythenorth>they don’t need a concept :d
14:09<andythenorth>maybe a shower gives the answer, sometimes works :p
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14:28<andythenorth>eh last year I had a prototype ‘Brineland’ economy with salt as major cargo
14:28<andythenorth>which has kind of resurfaced in extreme
14:28<andythenorth>extreme needs a new name :p
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14:33<andythenorth>Wirtschaftswunder?
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14:52<Samu>hmm
14:52<Samu>there should be a CheckFlatnessOfARectangle
14:53<Samu>built in
15:01<@Alberth>Industrial kingdom
15:05<Samu>IsBuildableRectangle is not enough
15:05<Samu>plz fix
15:05<Samu>lol
15:05<Samu>doesn't do what I expected it to do
15:07<Samu>looking at openttd code atm
15:07<Samu> /* static */ bool ScriptTile::IsBuildableRectangle(TileIndex tile, uint width, uint height)
15:07<Samu>this is disappointing :(
15:08<Samu>it doesn't treat the rectangle as an area of tiles
15:08<Samu>doesn't check for flatness allowance
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15:28<@Alberth>you can code industries to build on non-flat areas, flatness requirement would lead to false negatives
15:28<@Alberth>also stations and airports can be build on non-flat areas, afaik
15:29<Samu>there is a good function in openttd code itself
15:29<Samu>but it was not ported to the script side
15:29<Samu>can't access it
15:30<Samu>the AI can't use it
15:30<Samu>sec
15:30<Samu>CheckFlatArea in station_cmd.cpp if i recall, brb
15:32<Samu>ah
15:32<Samu>CommandCost cost = CheckFlatLand(airport_area, flags);
15:32<Samu>CheckFlatLand, and it does it's magic
15:32<Samu>line 2221
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16:07<andythenorth>“Dusseldorf”
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16:18<@planetmaker>* andythenorth [18:01:19] wonders if there’s a ranked list of cargo transported worldwide <-- there is... maybe not world-wide, but the statistics are available at least for each (or most) countries
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16:19<@planetmaker>like... http://trade.ec.europa.eu/doclib/docs/2006/september/tradoc_113383.pdf
16:19<@planetmaker>buh :(
16:19<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, trying to reply to andy is horrible :p
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