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#openttd IRC Logs for 2018-08-22

---Logopened Wed Aug 22 00:00:16 2018
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06:50<Samu>i found a weird bug
06:51<Samu>AIAirport.GetNearestTown(tile, airport_type);
06:51<Samu>i don't get the same town
06:52<Samu>even with the same tile
06:52<Samu>must explore this
06:53<Samu>maybe it's not a bug, or i'm failing to understand the difference
06:55<Wolf01>Maybe one is intended to get the nearest town as destination while the other is intended to get the nearest town given a tile?
06:58<Samu>the town of AIAirport.GetNearestTown is really far off than the other function
07:00<Samu>the tile is where "Flarnwell Heights" sign is located, the nearest town for the first function is Pletston, the nearest town for the second one is Flarnwell
07:03<Wolf01>Do the functions have a comment explaining what they return or you just guess by the name?
07:04<Samu>doesn't seem to be clear
07:09<Wolf01>The flarnwell airport should return flarnwell, as it's under that local authority, I don't understand why it should need the airport type btw, on a tile you can have only one airport and only one local authority
07:11<Samu>it treats it as an area of tiles
07:11<Eddi|zuHause>you do know that the local authority of a station may be different than the local authority of the tile that the station (sign) is on?
07:12<Wolf01>Yes, but in that case it's on the other side of the town, I don't think pletston local authority reaches that far, at least if he didn't station walk with that airport
07:12<Samu>local authority of that tile is Flanrwell, just checked
07:13<Samu>no, i didn't station walk
07:16<Eddi|zuHause>i'm assuming AIAirport.GetNearestTown is the one that limits the noise
07:16<Eddi|zuHause>so it's not only the distance but also the town size
07:17<Eddi|zuHause>and it needs the airport type because it needs the size of the (potential) airport you're trying to build
07:19<Wolf01>That makes sense
07:20<Samu>but still, why did it get a town that is so far away than that place?
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07:50<andythenorth>I need to rek FIRS
07:50<andythenorth>but I only have a phone
07:51<andythenorth>no hg client, no text editor :p
07:51<Wolf01>WTF, can't you just let it live a bit? :D
07:51<andythenorth>and can’t edit directly in devzome
07:55<andythenorth>switch to github :p
07:56<nielsm>andythenorth, reasons why you should bring a real computer even when going on vacation
07:57<andythenorth>then I’d just play tanks and be angry :(
07:57<nielsm>don't need to bring something that can play 3D games :P
07:58<andythenorth>unrelatec: industrial chemistry continues to mess with my brain
07:58<andythenorth>it’s complex eh
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07:59<andythenorth>p-aminophenol stops your brain hurting, for example
08:00<andythenorth>and comes from coke ovens, indirectly
08:01<andythenorth>whereas sulfuric acid is a waste product from coke ovens, but also a saleable by product
08:01<andythenorth>and is also used to recover other by products
08:01<andythenorth>such complex :p
08:02<andythenorth>also most of my information is from wikipedia, and have you ever met a WP contributor? o_O
08:03<andythenorth>nielsm so do you think 16 cargos is going to make it? :) FIRS 4 design starts to depend on it :)
08:04<nielsm>I think it just depends on being tested working?
08:05<nielsm>it's the callback stuff I'm unsure about working or not because I don't understand the mechanisms involved in the GRF execution engine, so I can't make any test cases myself
08:06<andythenorth>yeah I need to patch FIRS internals for that, assumes 2 cargos
08:06<andythenorth>no loops over n cargos
08:07<Eddi|zuHause>oh, steam beta comes now with integrated wine?
08:07<@peter1138>Sounds like it.
08:07<andythenorth>and the storage increase PR in openttd is blocked by newgrf revision problem
08:11<LordAro>i wonder if steam's bundled libraries are still from ubuntu 12.04
08:11<LordAro>(and how out of date their bundled version of wine will get)
08:11<andythenorth>so I’m renaming Extreme
08:11<Eddi|zuHause>dunno, but i think it always tried to use system libraries first by default
08:11<andythenorth>Better Living Through Chemistry
08:12<LordAro>Eddi|zuHause: definitely didn't used to, it caused issues on arch#
08:12<Eddi|zuHause>i think for a time i had the reverse problem, i had to set an environment option to not use system but bundled libraries
08:13<Eddi|zuHause>now next question, how do i copy the savegames over from my wine steam installation to the normal steam...
08:14<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think i used steam cloud
08:14<LordAro>locate on disk -> copy?
08:14<Eddi|zuHause>LordAro: there was a STEAM_PREFER_HOST_LIBRARIES or something
08:14<andythenorth>or...The Chemical Life
08:14<andythenorth>dunno which I prefer yet
08:16<Eddi|zuHause>My Chemical Romance (i hear that is a totally up to date reference for the youth of today)
08:17<Eddi|zuHause>(if "today" means "ten years ago")
08:17<andythenorth>considered that one too
08:19<andythenorth>it’s chemical products oriented :)
08:20<Eddi|zuHause>Chemistry is Love, Chemistry is Life
08:20<andythenorth>dunno whether to split ‘petrochemicals’ up, it’s easier as a single cargo
08:20<andythenorth>it’s usefully non-specific
08:20<Eddi|zuHause>(almost definitely don't use that)
08:21<andythenorth>eddi I can add that one to the list :)
08:21<Eddi|zuHause>really, don't :p
08:25<andythenorth>hmm, how to handle changes in industrial process?
08:25<andythenorth>e.g. phenol historically sourced from coal tar, then switched to distillation from crude oil
08:26<andythenorth>I guess this economy is post 1950 or so
08:26<Eddi|zuHause>so, they do have a dropdown which allows to select which "compatibility tool" to use, might be helpful if they allowed to set a custom wine version to use there, instead of theirs
08:28<Eddi|zuHause>so, at least the game starts out-of-the-box (spent a lot of time getting it to run under normal wine)
08:29<Eddi|zuHause>still haven't found the savegame data
08:31<andythenorth>how many outputs is too many for an industry?
08:31<andythenorth>bearing in mind (1) the fractional cargo production from inputs
08:31<andythenorth>(2) the need for pickup stations
08:33<Eddi|zuHause>stations can be 64x64
08:34<Eddi|zuHause>dunno about the fractions
08:35<andythenorth>can’t remember how wasteful the integer maths is
08:36<andythenorth>“probably fine”
08:38<Eddi|zuHause>what's the easiest way to find out the appid of a game?
08:38<Eddi|zuHause>ah, shop page
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08:40<Eddi|zuHause>hm, it doesn't seem to be in the steam userdata section
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08:43<Eddi|zuHause>ok, found it... now next where to put it so it finds it...
08:44<@planetmaker><andythenorth> and the storage increase PR in openttd is blocked by newgrf revision problem <--- not sure those two problems should be linked
08:45<andythenorth>PR notes suggest they are, but I’m not sure
08:45<@planetmaker>I'm actually tempted to just approve the PR and be done with that feature. Yet the ability of NewGRFs to query OpenTTD's capabilities or revision... should still be there
08:45<@planetmaker>or rather re-introduced
08:45<@planetmaker>as should be nightly builds :D
08:45<Eddi|zuHause>it's definitely a problem that needs to be solved
08:45<Eddi|zuHause>but i don't see the dependency
08:46<@planetmaker>there is a weak one: a NewGRF using the 17+ persistant storages needs to know whether they work or simply return 0 regardless
08:46<@planetmaker>Thus such NewGRFs need to know what OpenTTD they run on
08:46<andythenorth>but we think that’s a concern for the newgrf?
08:47<andythenorth>not the storage?
08:47<@planetmaker>It's an OpenTTD concern as it offers no means for a NewGRF to get the required information (other than checking openttd major-minor-bugfix revision
08:47<Eddi|zuHause>but it would allow making test newgrfs for now which ignore the detection, or put a more fuzzy ">=1.9.0" check in to work in current nightly and in release, but not older nightlies in the last 4 months
08:47<@planetmaker>which would likely be fine enough
08:48<Eddi|zuHause>it's a bad workaround
08:48<@planetmaker>yeah. But good enough for now
08:48<Eddi|zuHause>but it's not critical
08:48<andythenorth>seems we could approve it and tidy the mess later?
08:49<Samu>there must be a bug with my code somewhere
08:49<andythenorth>or it dies of being debated to death? :)
08:49<Samu>it doesn't seem to be openttd
08:49<@planetmaker>My suggestion for the reported revision is actually: make it a compile-time constant which needs updating when a critical NewGRF feature is introduced / changed / whatever
08:49<andythenorth>API rev?
08:49<@planetmaker>it's yet another thing in need of maintenance. But well... it is anyway. It kinda is an API rev anyway.
08:50<@planetmaker>no need to invent something new there. Just continue to use the revision. But commit it directly instead of inferring it from the VCS
08:50<Eddi|zuHause>ok... so old save data is in "wineprefixes/steam/drive_c/users/johannes/Local Settings/Application Data/" and new data goes into "Steam/SteamApps/compatdata/<appid>/pfx/drive_c/users/steamuser/Local Settings/Application Data/"
08:50<Eddi|zuHause>now, do i make a copy or a symlink?
08:50<andythenorth>planetmaker that seems very pragmatic
08:51<andythenorth>maintaining revs is dull but hard to avoid
08:51<@planetmaker>it's not a big issue anyway
08:51<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, it's effectively same as savegame rev
08:51<@planetmaker>it's just one additional line of codechange in newgrf-related code changes and additions
08:52<@planetmaker>yep, like savegame rev, or similar. The same constant could effectively be used. Maybe should for simplicity's sake
08:52<@planetmaker>though it would bump savegame rev dramatically :P
08:52<Eddi|zuHause>but i suppose it's better than relying on commit history which is not guaranteed to be the same on everyone's computer
08:52<Eddi|zuHause>not sure if linking them is a good idea
08:53<Eddi|zuHause>plus i think savegame rev is limited to uint8 currently
08:53<@planetmaker>right. That can always be done later, too. So first: re-introduce reported revision for NewGRFs and increment it everytime it's needed
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08:54<Eddi|zuHause>yes, that seems like a useful approach
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08:58<andythenorth>so ‘drugs’, ‘medicines’ or ‘pharmaceuticals’ cargo name?
08:58<andythenorth>high value, like diamonds and such
09:00<andythenorth>dunno if medicines is a wider set than drugs
09:01*andythenorth researching
09:01<andythenorth>pharma is a subset of drugs
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09:04<@planetmaker>medical products is wider. Pharamaceutical usually is chemicals while prothetics, implants etc not, but still medical. But maybe that's me and I'm not native speaker
09:06<Eddi|zuHause>"drugs" (as in "drugstore") would include shampoo, soap, deodorant and stuff
09:07<@planetmaker>funnily drug and Droge derive from the word 'dröge', or in English dry ;)
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09:08<andythenorth>drugs also includes illegal drugs
09:10<andythenorth>so probably ‘pharmaceuticals’
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09:17<Samu>Guys, I found the problem!
09:17<Samu>it's in my code
09:17<Samu>it's not openttd
09:18<Samu>or actually, in ludiai's code
09:18<Samu>this part didn't belong to me
09:18<Samu>sorry about false alarm Eddi|zuHause , Wolf01
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09:29<Samu>just sorted it out
09:29<Samu>it was due to the adjacent station code
09:30<Samu>it was trying to join an airport with another
09:30<Samu>now it no longer tries to join airports
09:31<Samu>and the nearest town of a hypotetically joined airport was closer to Pletston
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09:43<andythenorth>so inputs for pharma factory?
09:43<andythenorth>besides coal tar?
09:44<@planetmaker>some agriculture stuff or plants
09:44<@planetmaker>or some sort of chemicals
09:44<andythenorth>opium poppies?
09:44<@planetmaker>yep :D
09:49*andythenorth lost in BASF pharma website :p
09:50<andythenorth>“aroma ingredients market”
09:53<andythenorth>seems I need to know what amines are
09:54<Eddi|zuHause>parts of aminoacids?
09:57<andythenorth>seems so
10:00<andythenorth>dunno if there’s a separate industry for pharma
10:00<andythenorth>already got a multi-purpose “specialty chemicals factory”
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10:58<Wolf01> <- Eddi|zuHause, trying this?
10:59<Eddi|zuHause>got one game to work so far, another just crashed
10:59<Eddi|zuHause>not sure how to tweak it to get it working
11:03<@peter1138>Step 1) Install Windows.
11:03<nielsm>is it based on wine?
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11:06<Eddi|zuHause>ok, the game that crashed also crashes in my normal wine
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11:06<Eddi|zuHause>probably graphics driver related
11:07<Eddi|zuHause>(it used to run a few years ago)
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11:50<andythenorth>i could do 3 cargos for chemicals :p
11:53<andythenorth>also carbon black is due a revival
11:53<andythenorth>I removed it from Steeltown
11:56<andythenorth>can I treat natural rubber and synthetic rubber same?
12:04<andythenorth>so much and very questions
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12:10<andythenorth>hmm, is rubber a polymer?
12:10<andythenorth>currently I have a polymers cargo
12:12<Eddi|zuHause>i probably wouldn't merge those
12:12<andythenorth>polymers could equally well be plastics, but polymers seems to fit better than plastics for the textile chain
12:12<andythenorth>plastic clothes is weird
12:12<andythenorth>polymer clothes seems fine
12:13<Eddi|zuHause>synthetic fibres?
12:13<andythenorth>maybe yes
12:16<andythenorth>so I don’t know whether to add a coal tar distiller
12:16<andythenorth>it would look quite good
12:16<andythenorth>but overlaps with other things
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12:18<andythenorth>it’s a unique source of creosote
12:19<andythenorth>5 other cargos could be produced at other industries
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12:43<Samu>how do I get the noise of an airport type, before testing it on a tile?
12:46<Samu>GetNoiseLevelIncrease (TileIndex tile, AirportType type) requires a tile, what if I don't have a tile
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12:53<andythenorth>is “bicycles” a valid cargo? o_O
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12:58<Eddi|zuHause>probably a tiny bit too specific
12:59<andythenorth>personal transport? :p
13:00<andythenorth>so to what extent is cement production “chemistry”?
13:02<andythenorth>my planned changes make the chemical chain even denser
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13:02<andythenorth>I think I leave food/farms as is
13:02<andythenorth>but building materials chain doesn’t seem to fit
13:02<andythenorth>needs more or less detail
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13:04<andythenorth>at 53 cargos now. 48 would be preferable, but could alternativel add even more
13:05<Eddi|zuHause>hm, another game that crashes in a similar way... i probably need to diagnose this better
13:07<andythenorth>maybe I don’t need bricks
13:07<Eddi|zuHause>back to BDMT?
13:09<andythenorth>currently is BDMT
13:09<andythenorth>removing brickworks just simplifies grf
13:09<andythenorth>graph *
13:10<andythenorth>and removes a consumer of coal, which is over-demanded
13:10<Eddi|zuHause>so far, 1/4 games worked... i somehow hoped for a better ratio
13:11<andythenorth>if it’s Better Living Through Chemistry, what nice cargos have I over-looked? o_O
13:12<Eddi|zuHause>tbh, i don't have a good overview of what you actually have :p
13:14<andythenorth>I can’t update the docs currently :)
13:15<andythenorth>they miss 5 cargos: coal tar, creosote, carbon black, rubber, pharmaceuticals
13:15<andythenorth>and maybe asphalt
13:20<Samu>Wormnest: hi
13:20<Samu>do you know?
13:23<andythenorth>I have lumped all the intermediate petrochemicals together
13:24<andythenorth>irl they’re too complex
13:24<andythenorth>ethane, methane, benzene, naptha, ethylene etc
13:25<andythenorth>I’ve also left out hydrogen because it tends to be pipeline transported
13:26<andythenorth>nitrogen is missing, and could come from a cryo plant
13:26<Eddi|zuHause>well, you could still think about splitting polymers into plastic and (synthesic) fibres
13:28<andythenorth>I could split polymers yes
13:29<Eddi|zuHause>food additives?
13:30<Eddi|zuHause>(citric acid, synthetic aroma, sugar replacements, ...)
13:30<andythenorth>yes, they’re in
13:31<andythenorth>and industrial finishes (paint, varnish, coatings etc)
13:31<andythenorth>cleaning agents is detergents and similar
13:32<Wormnest>Samu: If you know where you want to place an airport you should have a tile
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13:32<andythenorth>I think I’m at a “edit down” phase next, stripping anything that doesn’t fit here
13:32<Eddi|zuHause>activated charcoal (for air quality scrubbers/mining supplies)?
13:32<Samu>i have the tile, but i was trying to speed up things
13:33<Samu>wanted to get it from the airport type itself
13:33<andythenorth>charcoal is interesting
13:33<andythenorth>also used pharmaceuticallt
13:33<Samu>i would then exclude some towns from tilechecking
13:33<andythenorth>how is activates charcoal produced?
13:33<andythenorth>off phone spelling :p
13:35<andythenorth>also there are no pesticides, defoliants or similar
13:35<andythenorth>nor any lubricating oils or similar
13:36<Eddi|zuHause>hm, "PROTON_USE_WINED3D11=1" and "PROTON_NO_D3D11=1" sound like variables i should try to tweak
13:37<andythenorth>the metals chain is very limited also
13:37<andythenorth>no lead, nickel etc
13:38<andythenorth>possibly yes
13:38<andythenorth>I guess it’s not Better Living Through Mettalurgy
13:38<andythenorth>I could make Steeltown bigger, but eh
13:39<Eddi|zuHause>awesome, now the game starts, but i have a completely pink screen :p
13:41<Eddi|zuHause>turns out looking at a bright pink screen is not healthy :p
13:43<andythenorth>kind of wonder
13:43<andythenorth>if Bob The Builder is a valid economy
13:44<andythenorth>splitting up BDMT
13:46<Eddi|zuHause>probably, but not this economy :p
13:46<andythenorth>I think it’s an urban economy
13:47<andythenorth>deliver many things to towns, many end cargos, but less detail in the commodity input cargos
13:47<Eddi|zuHause>oh it runs!
13:47<Eddi|zuHause>with PROTON_USE_WINED3D11=1
13:50<andythenorth>so should I sack Power Station from chemical economy?
13:50<andythenorth>it’s just a coal eater
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14:06<Samu>Wormnest: do you care to take a look at my code?
14:06<Samu>need ideas to speed up the search
14:07<Samu>when there aren't many airport types available, it's quite fast
14:07<Samu>if all 9 are available, it becomes too slow
14:07<Wormnest>Sorry Samu I have to many other things I need to do currently
14:07<Samu>oh :( ok
14:07<andythenorth>players won’t like the loss of Extreme eh?
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14:20<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: either remove it, or add some side products
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14:22<andythenorth>fly ash
14:22<andythenorth>but that’s BDMT oriented
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14:22<Eddi|zuHause>hm, game got stuck in a scene change...
14:23<andythenorth>I never liked Extreme anyway
14:23<andythenorth>probs someone will fork it
14:24<Eddi|zuHause>power plants need some game mechanic, like boosting town growth or nearby industries or something
14:25<andythenorth>is carbon black just an industrial finish?
14:28<andythenorth>I think in tyres it’s a structural component
14:28<andythenorth>whereas finishes are decorative or protective
14:28<andythenorth>it conflates a bit when used as ink
14:28<andythenorth>finishes includes dyes and inks
14:31<andythenorth>that too
14:32<andythenorth>can probably lose coffee, sugar, flour now
14:32<andythenorth>quicklime is notably missing though
14:33<andythenorth>and I should research pesticides and poisons
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14:49<Eddi|zuHause>ok, the game literally just said "Better living through chemistry" :p
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15:30<Samu>what does the Clear() do in this situation?
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15:31<andythenorth>eh pesticides are hard to include
15:31<andythenorth>they are either elemental (sulphur) or complex organic chemicals
15:32<andythenorth>they would likely just be FMSP also
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16:08<andythenorth>nitrogen isn’t transported much
16:08<andythenorth>easier to produce on site in a cryo plant
16:09<andythenorth>quicklime is mostly used in steel production, and steel mill can accept limestone
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16:21<+glx>Samu: without checking the doc, I can guess it removes all elements from the array
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17:57<Samu>glx: i figured it out
17:58<Samu>btw, I get a DIRECT_MUSIC thing warning when compiling
17:58<Samu>are you aware?
17:58<Samu>brb getting the exact message
18:01<Samu>7>d:\openttd\openttd essentials\shared\include\dmerror.h(12): warning C4005: 'FACILITY_DIRECTMUSIC': macro redefinition (compiling source file ..\src\music\dmusic.cpp) 7> C:\Program Files (x86)\Windows Kits\8.1\Include\shared\winerror.h(162): note: see previous definition of 'FACILITY_DIRECTMUSIC' (compiling source file ..\src\music\dmusic.cpp)
18:02<@peter1138>You need to remove the dmusic stuff from your essentials
18:02<Samu>i also get this
18:02<Samu>7>..\src\tunnelbridge_cmd.cpp(719): warning C4267: 'argument': conversion from 'size_t' to 'uint', possible loss of data
18:03<LordAro>largely irrelevant
18:04<Samu>my essentials were downloaded
18:04<Samu>don't know if there is a newer essentials
18:04<Samu>not sure what im supposed to do
18:05<@peter1138>You need to remove the dmusic stuff from your essentials
18:05<Samu>k :p
18:07<Eddi|zuHause>ok, so wine for steam status: 4/5 games run, 2 of them need additional configuration, some have sound issues
18:08<Eddi|zuHause>but the feature itself is great
18:08<Samu>#define FACILITY_DIRECTMUSIC 0x878 /* Shared with DirectSound */
18:08<Samu>i remove this line?
18:08<@peter1138>No, the whole files.
18:08<Samu>well, no idea which files they are
18:10<+glx>I don't remember dmusic being in essentials
18:11<+glx>but we used to require a very old dxsdk
18:11<+glx>this one can be uninstalled
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18:25<LordAro>Samu: they're only warnings, they don't particularly matter
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