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#openttd IRC Logs for 2018-08-23

---Logopened Thu Aug 23 00:00:18 2018
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03:54<Samu>i just noticed something, faster planes crash more often because they land more times
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03:57<Arveen>working as intended, heh
03:58<@Alberth>use them for longer distances :)
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04:21<Samu>i took my version of ludiai for a 100 year test, and there are issues
04:22<Samu>big towns, like 40k population
04:22<Samu>make it really slow at locating an airport
04:22<Samu>finding a location*
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04:31<andythenorth>is cat?
04:34<andythenorth>garden centre industry?
04:34<andythenorth>accepts peat, seeds
04:34<andythenorth>supplies gardens
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04:38<andythenorth>“Anaerobic digestate”
04:38<andythenorth>that’s quite a technical euphemism
04:39<andythenorth>for use on farm fields
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04:44<andythenorth>water treatment plant
04:45<andythenorth>accepts chlorine, soda ash
04:45<andythenorth>produces anaerobic digestate
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04:49<andythenorth>“urban organic waste digestates”
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04:59<andythenorth>so is compost, sewage etc “Better Living Through Chemistry” eh?
04:59<andythenorth>or something else
05:11<@planetmaker>sounds like ideas for "buzzword economy" :P
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05:13<andythenorth>“Urban Buzzwords”
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06:33<Samu>I solved the stationspread check issue, turns out I was calculating a rectangle wrong, resulting in an humongous amount of tiles to be examined
06:33<Samu>no wonder it was slow
06:34<Samu>let's hope it's faster now, retesting
06:34<Samu>an humongous or a humongous
06:34<Samu>my englisho
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06:37<LordAro>a humongous
06:45<Samu>wow, what a difference
06:45<Samu>it's so much faster now
06:47<Samu>wanna see the critical years when towns are already large, and larger and more airport types become available
06:48<Samu>I expect some slowdowns, but hope not by much
06:48<SpComb>some slideshows
06:55<@Alberth>down under you'd have slowups
07:17<Samu>1000 aircraft in 30 years, i didn't expect it to be this good lol
07:21<Samu>it is being a bit helicopter happy to my liking
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07:42<@Alberth>heli things fit too easy :)
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07:49<Samu>i found a weird bug with listing stations
07:50<Samu>i had the list of stations opened for LuDiAIAfterFix and LuDiAI
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07:50<Samu>then i clicked to filter airports in one of them
07:52<Samu>and then i clicked to filter airport stations on LuDiAI, then clicked to filter bus stations on the other
07:52<Samu>and the listing starts acting up
07:52<Samu>for the first one
07:53<Samu>it is listing bus stations for the first one even with the airport station pressed down
08:04<Samu>okay, there is yet some problem to fix :(
08:07<Samu>if im looking for a place in a specific town and another town is nearby, it sometimes places the airport belonging to the other town :(
08:07<Samu>I wanna avoid this
08:29<@Alberth>why? the other town may not have an airport?
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08:35<Samu>because I am checking each town individualy
08:35<Samu>if adds the other town to the towns_used list
08:35<Wolf01>Station list shared between windows?
08:36<Samu>it doesn't add the town where it started to check
08:36<Samu>wait a minute, this seems correct
08:37<Samu>then what is wrong :(
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08:37<@Alberth>seems highly unlikely that station lists are shared, someone would have noticed it
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09:38<Samu> tileList.Valuate(AITile.GetClosestTown); tileList.KeepValue(town);
09:38<Samu>is this gonna solve my problem?
09:38<Samu>let's hope so
09:43<@Alberth>likely all tiles have a closest town
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09:43<@Alberth>oh, it's a filter. never mind
09:44<@Alberth>likely there is a single tile that decides the town of an airport
09:56<@planetmaker>I think "upper left" of the bounding square might be that square
09:59<Samu>not sure if I use AIAirport.GetNearestTown or that one
09:59<@planetmaker>ideally it shouldn't matter
09:59<@planetmaker>as it would be identical results
10:00<Samu>i'm not sure about that
10:00<@planetmaker>the bounding rectangle is too simple for cases where the airport is joined to an existing station
10:00<@planetmaker>as the town-affiliation doesn't change for a station once the 1st tile is built
10:01<@planetmaker>so use the API call. Should be both, correct, easier and safer
10:11<@Alberth>he wants to know before you build the airport :)
10:15<@Alberth>oh, looks like that call would work
10:16<Samu>i'm looking at station_cmd.cpp, CommandCost CmdBuildAirport(TileIndex tile, DoCommandFlag flags, uint32 p1, uint32 p2, const char *text)
10:17<Samu>and it's hmm getting towns in 2 different manners
10:17<Samu>depending of town noise being enabled or not
10:18<Samu>Town *nearest = AirportGetNearestTown(as, iter);
10:18<Samu>versus Town *t = ClosestTownFromTile(tile, UINT_MAX);
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10:35<Samu>(*st)->town = ClosestTownFromTile(area.tile, UINT_MAX);
10:35<Samu>that settles it
10:35<Samu>AITile.GetClosestTown it is
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10:38<Wolf01>So, NNRT With diagonal roads?
10:38<@planetmaker>RNRT. Really new...
10:39<Eddi|zuHause>(where SM stands fro State Machine)
10:39<Samu>testing...if I find a town with multiple airports, I failed
10:39<Wolf01>I really would like to try making 2 track roads in the same tile, I think I would need another mx[] just to put everything in
10:39<Samu>if everytown has exactly 1 airport, I succeeded
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10:40<Wolf01>And yes, I would need a whole lot of brand new state machine stuff
10:41<Wolf01>But... better road junctions, a lot of interesting layouts with tram+road, maybe even up to 4 roadtypes on a single tile
10:41<Wolf01>2 trams and 2 roads
10:42<@planetmaker>and a rail crossing!
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10:43<Wolf01>And rail in the middle of the road, with both working
10:43<@planetmaker>of course
10:43<Wolf01>Serious shit, won't do :P
10:43<@planetmaker>but we have already a solution: we introduce a new zoom factor. And simply call 3x3 tiles a "new tile"
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10:45<Samu>i still fail ...
10:45<Samu>I don't understand :(
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10:46<andythenorth_>if everytown has a mayor
10:46<andythenorth_>nvm, paradoxes are boring :)
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10:52<Samu>the things you make me do
10:52<Samu>nearest_town = AITown.GetClosestTown(tile);
10:52<Samu>local allowed_noise = AITown.GetAllowedNoise(AIAirport.GetNearestTown(nearest_town);
10:53<Samu>forgot the type
10:53<@Alberth>and a closing parenthesis
10:54<Samu>and i need to supply a town, not a station i guess
10:55<Samu>meh this is confusing me already lol
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10:56<Samu>it's a town actually
10:56<Samu>local allowed_noise = AITown.GetAllowedNoise(AIAirport.GetNearestTown(nearest_town, a);
10:56<Samu>local allowed_noise = AITown.GetAllowedNoise(AIAirport.GetNearestTown(tile, a));
10:56<Samu>crap lol i'm a terrible copy paster
10:56<@Alberth>don't paste, type it again :)
10:57<Samu>local allowed_noise = AITown.GetAllowedNoise(AIAirport.GetNearestTown(nearest_town, a));
10:57<Samu>it's a tile isn't it? omg damn so confused
10:58<Samu>local allowed_noise = AITown.GetAllowedNoise(AIAirport.GetNearestTown(tile, a));
10:58<@Alberth>I have no idea, documentation knows, so I don't have to
10:58<Samu>static TownID GetNearestTown (TileIndex tile, AirportType type)
10:58<Samu>alright, it's a tile
10:59<@Alberth>parameter description may add more restrictions, although likely here it will just work
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11:01<Samu>the other one was also wrong
11:01<Samu>it's nearest_town = AITile.GetClosestTown(tile);
11:02<Samu>not AITown
11:02<andythenorth>Wolf01: first two rail tracks on same tile
11:02<Wolf01>Ha! You read it
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11:03<andythenorth>it’s probably time for two tracks per tile
11:03<andythenorth>also shunting
11:04<andythenorth>and the move-while-liading thing from JGR
11:04<andythenorth>and trains-can-proceed-on-sight option for PBS
11:05<andythenorth>all the ponies
11:05<andythenorth>state machine tiles also
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11:23<Samu>I finally understand asserts
11:23<Samu> assert(!towns_used.HasItem(nearest_town); this.towns_used.AddItem(nearest_town, good_tile);
11:23<Samu>if it's there, I failed
11:23<Samu>the town, that is
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11:24<Samu>crap, parenthesis
11:28<@planetmaker>the purpose of an assert is like "please crash now. something is not like it should be and worse might happen, if we continue"
11:31<Samu>i could add another
11:31<Samu>assert(!towns_used.HasItem(nearest_town) && town == nearest_town);
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11:46<Samu>no asserts so far
11:46<Samu>it's looking good :)
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11:58<Eddi|zuHause>so, my distorted sound problems seem to be an instance of
11:58<Eddi|zuHause>at least the workaround there seems to work so far
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12:09<Samu>Alberth: how do I get the cost of a refit for an aircraft I don't yet own?
12:10<Samu>I need to know the cost of an aircraft + the cost of it refiedt to mail before buying it
12:11<@Alberth>why not buy it if it is cheap enough, and then query refit. If it is also cheap enough, refit, else sell the aircraft
12:11<Samu>aircraft refit price isn't that cheap
12:12<Samu>at least for the original aircraft
12:12<@Alberth>I am not sure it is possible to query refit before owning it
12:12<@Alberth>if you cannot afford to buy it, knowing refit cost is no good either :)
12:12<Samu>hmm, good idea
12:13<Samu>buy it, try to refit, fail, sell, destroy airports... rip money :(
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12:14<@planetmaker>yeah... initially aircraft can be quite expensive :)
12:15<@Alberth>I don't even see a function for refit cost if you own the aircraft
12:16<Samu>there is a AITestMode thing
12:16<Samu>i fake refit it
12:16<Samu>and AIAccounting gives me the price
12:16<@Alberth>can't fake buy it?
12:16<Samu>i have to actually have the aircraft :(
12:18<Samu>gonna test my ai in a 4k map, i expect bad profits for very very long distances
12:18<Samu>eh, not really mine, but
12:18<@Alberth>you can buy it in an existing airport once for testing
12:20<Samu>u gave me an idea
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12:20<Samu>if i can actually refit the first aircraft, of course
12:22<Samu>wondering if the refit cost is equal to all aircraft
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12:28<@Alberth>keep a table for all models, using the largest one you found so far if you don't know
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12:40<Samu>this is what it looks like at the moment
12:44<Samu>oh, you might want to take a look at TownAirportRadRect(a, town);
12:44<Samu>and the checkadjacent stuff
12:47<Samu> there
12:47<Samu>the estimateTownRectangle function was from LuDiAI code
12:47<Samu>it is untouched
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12:53<@planetmaker> <-- your comment there seems to indicate that you're not happy with that PR, frosch123? I believe it's two separate issues: a) size of persistent storage. b) how to indicate version for NewGRFs
12:53<@planetmaker>The latter is out-of-scope for that PR, I think
12:54<@planetmaker>and honestly I'd solve the issue of version reported to NewGRFs identical to savegame version. Just another constant incremented when needed
12:54<frosch123>i think the stable version is sufficient
12:55<@planetmaker>if we change nothing, that's what we already have, yes
12:55<frosch123>there is also just one define each to check for c++11/14/17
12:55<frosch123>noone would start testing development versions of compilers
12:56<@planetmaker>ok, what does your comment aim at? the _ttdpatch constant?
12:56<frosch123>yes, the pr adds a method for newgrf to test for a specific feature
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12:57<@planetmaker>hm, ok, fair enough. Not really needed
12:57<@planetmaker>and actually bloat in that way of argument
12:57<frosch123>i think noone would ever check that flag in 10 months
12:57<frosch123>if people need it now, they should just check for 1.9
12:57<@planetmaker>andy would maybe :P
12:58<@planetmaker>but then... he would just assume the feature is there :D
12:58<@planetmaker>if it's 1.9
13:00<Samu>hmm the original WrigthAI.nut of LuDiAI was 445 lines, my version contains 761
13:00<Samu>I think I overcomplicate too much
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13:00<Samu>it was supposed to be a fixed LuDiAI, and now it's becoming something extra :(
13:00<@planetmaker>Samu, : :) instead of :( !
13:01<@planetmaker>sometimes the seemingly easy improvement needs more work than it made you believe :)
13:01<@planetmaker>especially when it comes to teaching computers some kind of "intelligence"
13:02<frosch123>planetmaker: anyway, it is no big deal. there is tons of old cruft in newgrf, adding a bit does not make it worse
13:02<@planetmaker>it's adding a new byte ;)
13:02<frosch123>i was mostly surprised that ottd had twice as many ttdpflags as ttdp
13:02<frosch123>which i think was someone miscounting :p
13:04<@planetmaker> <-- shouldn't that be merged?
13:05<frosch123>wait for tomrrow please
13:05<@planetmaker>release day?
13:05<frosch123>on friday we have some chitchat meeting at work, and tomorrow i talk about the gh workflow
13:05<frosch123>and i use that one as example :p
13:06<@planetmaker>:D :D
13:06<@planetmaker>that is a fair and good reason coming as surprise :)
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13:12<frosch123>i need a trivial issue, to point out that prs are done for everything
13:12<frosch123>but i did not want to look up a ln issue
13:18<Eddi|zuHause>haha :p
13:18<Eddi|zuHause>did we fix earrings yet?
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13:32<@planetmaker>hm, do those folks know that *you* made that PR? :D
13:33<@peter1138>Also shows that for trivial issues, PRs mean it takes ages to get resolved ;p
13:33<frosch123>planetmaker: yes
13:34<frosch123>since i also show the origin branch
13:35<frosch123>peter1138: a sister subsidiary wants to start using bitbucket, and they want to do PR review by sitting next to each other
13:35<@planetmaker>sounds... unnecessarily complicated
13:35<frosch123>i am not sure whether those who came up with that ever used it
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13:37<@Alberth>that's how yo do or discuss a review on paper, right? :)
13:37<@Alberth>what else would change :p
13:37<frosch123>maybe they even want to do it on paper
13:37<frosch123>they are kind of scared that management reads reviews and judges people
13:37<frosch123>they made rules who is allowe to read reviews
13:38<@planetmaker>fair enough. Bad management could us it against you
13:38<frosch123>i have no idea how they really want to do stuff
13:38<@planetmaker>Yet if that is a concern, the online version won't be used like it should / could be used. The sissor is then already in the heads
13:38<frosch123>but at least they use git, while in my place everything is svn :p
13:38<Samu>as expected, in a 4k map, it is failing, it's creating too many routes with 4000+ tiles distance
13:39<frosch123>planetmaker: i am very sure it is self-hosted
13:39<Samu>looks like i need a mean to calculate a max distance per route? per airplane model?
13:39<@planetmaker>uh, yes. But that doesn't change it, does it?
13:40<@planetmaker>Samu, yes, there's a NewGRF property even which restricts maximum travel distance for airplanes
13:40<@planetmaker>not for default planes. But some from some pikka sets are restricted in distance
13:42<Samu>oh rats
13:42<Samu>forgot about that "detail"
13:44<@planetmaker>Samu, but probably you want a distance restriction anyway... or maybe rather travel *time* restriction. Too long is not profitable either
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13:45<Samu> - scary
13:46<Samu>estimating 136 aircraft for a route, lol
13:46<Samu>ok, gonna have to think about the max distance
13:48<Samu>will take a look at those that profit valiantly, and then calculate the distance
13:49<Samu>then i use that distance as the max_distance
13:49<Samu>it will have to "learn from mistakes" at first
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13:54<Samu>@calc 933 + 3094 - 855 - 2372
13:54<@DorpsGek>Samu: 800
13:55<Samu>800 tiles
13:55<Samu>heh... 5423 in that screenshot lol
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14:13<Samu>@calc 1524 + 1101 - 1238 - 454
14:13<@DorpsGek>Samu: 933
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15:22<Samu>ok, the learning of the max_air_distance is done. I thought this would be more complicated to code in
15:22<Samu>restarting the 4k map, will see what it will come up with
15:23<Samu>@calc 4096 + 4096
15:23<@DorpsGek>Samu: 8192
15:23<Samu>well, i put it starting at 10000
15:23<Samu>should be enough
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16:01<Eddi|zuHause>ah, the daily game of "where the hell did i put my mouse 10 minutes ago?"
16:03<Eddi|zuHause>different kind of mouse :p
16:04<Eddi|zuHause>for some completely unknown and mysterious reason, cats are totally uninterested in things that don't move on their own :p
16:04<@Alberth>tie a cord to it, so you can find it again
16:05<@Alberth>likely cats just consider it bad smelling
16:05<Eddi|zuHause>how 20 years ago :p
16:06<Eddi|zuHause>one could consider putting a phone core in, to make it ring when you lose it :p
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16:06<@Alberth>nah, it should be sentient, and make itself available when you need it
16:06<Eddi|zuHause>"alexa, spawn my mouse"
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16:08<andythenorth>is it bluetooth?
16:08<Eddi|zuHause>it's certainly 2.4GHz, no idea if it's bluetooth
16:09<Eddi|zuHause>it is not configurable
16:11<Eddi|zuHause>i once wanted to warranty-replace the mouse, and they demanded also the dongle and the keyboard, because you can't change the code in the dongle to match the new mouse
16:11<andythenorth>it meeds a tiny speaker in it
16:11<andythenorth>needs *
16:11<Eddi|zuHause>or one of those force-feedback things that gamepads have
16:12<andythenorth>then it could also simulate the tiny squeak that ball mice used to have
16:12<andythenorth>when they were dirty
16:12<andythenorth>my trackpad has a tiny speaker for the click sound :p
16:12<Wolf01>You mean apple mice?
16:12<Wolf01>Because my mice didn't squeak
16:13<Eddi|zuHause>i don't remember ever consciously noticing a mouse squeaking
16:13<andythenorth>maybe I imagined it
16:13<andythenorth>it’s 25 years ago
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16:23<andythenorth>I need a name for an urban economy
16:23<andythenorth>many town cargos
16:23<andythenorth>which is balanced by a lot of farm / food production
16:23<andythenorth>and building materials
16:33<Eddi|zuHause>i would save that for one that needs massive amounts of workers each shift
16:34<andythenorth>Coffee Town
16:36<andythenorth>Retail Therapy
16:36<andythenorth>Modern Life is Rubbish
16:36<Eddi|zuHause>Stardew Valley
16:37<Wolf01>Farm simulator 2018
16:38<Wolf01>And that reminds me I should unlock steam locos on train mechanic simulator
16:38<Eddi|zuHause>what did you have before? muscle operated locos?
16:38<Wolf01>No, starts with diesel :(
16:39<Eddi|zuHause>how backwards
16:39<Wolf01>Then lectric and at last steam
16:39<andythenorth>Sim City?
16:40<andythenorth>City Skylines?
16:40<Eddi|zuHause>Farmers Market
16:41<andythenorth>A Town Like Alice
16:42<Eddi|zuHause>no clue what that refers to
16:43<andythenorth>it’s a book about an Australian Outback town that grows
16:43<andythenorth>I recently read it :p
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16:45<andythenorth>Market Square
16:45<andythenorth>Gas, Food, Lodging
16:46<Wolf01>Operation market garden... fruit, vegetables, tanks
16:47<andythenorth>oof :p
16:47<andythenorth>well played
16:48<andythenorth>I wonder what climate it will be
16:48<andythenorth>probably temperate
16:52<Wolf01>Shit, half of the train damaged and they want it to be repaired for $1500
16:53<andythenorth>Urban Jungle?
16:53<Eddi|zuHause>are those italian prices? :p
16:54<Eddi|zuHause>"I won this contract for 6 million, let's subcontract to someone that does it for 4 million, and keep 2 million profit without doing anything"
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16:54<Wolf01>Seem so
16:54<Eddi|zuHause>and that guy does "hey, i got this contract for 4 million, let's subcontract it for 3 million, and keep 1 million profit without doing anything"
16:55<Eddi|zuHause>and so on...
16:56<Eddi|zuHause>then the original person was expecting work done in the value of 6 million, but actual work was only done for 1.5 million, other money just disappeared in some pockets
16:56<Wolf01>I can't even repair all the parts asdfasdfasg :D
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17:00<Samu>i have a problem with the max_distance, grrr
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17:00<Samu>i'm only picking the best 10 towns :(
17:01<Samu>sometimes those 10 towns are not within min-max interval
17:01<Samu>it ends up never building anything
17:03<Wolf01>Yes, $600 for a 10 amp fuse is ridiculous, and this game doesn't even allow to have a stash of parts to repair and resell, or keep money between jobs :(
17:03<Eddi|zuHause>a 10 amp fuse? what everyone has in their home?
17:04<Wolf01>It's for automotive, but same
17:05<Wolf01>Managed to destroy 2 of them trying to repair
17:05<Wolf01>But the other ones are now like new
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17:06<andythenorth>reviews of that game are...mixed :)
17:07<Wolf01>No bonus, out of budget :(
17:07<Wolf01>Was paid only $750
17:07<andythenorth>hmm bed :)
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17:24<Samu>daym, 4k maps really expose the weaknesses of the ai
17:25<Samu>the first 10 routes all have distances of about 4000+
17:25<Samu>he's gonna bankrupt
17:27<Samu>he cannot learn :(
17:27<Samu>with a bad start
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17:47<Wolf01>Ok, unlocked steam depot, not it can rest there for 2 or 3 months
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---Logclosed Fri Aug 24 00:00:19 2018