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#openttd IRC Logs for 2018-08-24

---Logopened Fri Aug 24 00:00:19 2018
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04:09<Wolf01>Moin
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07:01<Samu_>if I have a variable like this...
07:01<Samu_>local best_profit;
07:01<Samu_>and then I do a comparison like this...
07:02<Samu_>if (profit + AIVehicle.GetProfitThisYear(i) > best_profit) {
07:02<Samu_>what is the value of best_profit?
07:02<Samu_>0?
07:04<@planetmaker>if you don't assign any value: most likely.
07:04<@planetmaker>but you should be explicit about it
07:05<@planetmaker>local int best_profit = 0;
07:05<Samu_>hmm problem is that the profit could be negative and I'm comparing if it's > 0
07:05<Samu_>i need a different solution
07:06<Samu_>must start at null
07:06<@planetmaker>you're not interested in a profit < 0 anyway, are you?
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07:06<@planetmaker>so a list of loss-making connections is somewhat useless :P
07:07<Samu_>I see
07:07<Samu_>you're right
07:07<@planetmaker>and only remembering those which have at least some profit would probably suffice
07:07<@planetmaker>you just have to remember to check that you actually *did* select a route afterwards
07:08<@planetmaker>otherwise, there might be constant like MIN_INT or so
07:08<@planetmaker>or INT_MIN. Whatever. Or make that yourself.
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07:13<Samu_> if (best_profit == null || profit > best_profit) { best_profit = profit; }
07:14<Samu_>this should do
07:15<Samu_>local best_profit = null;
07:15<Samu_>there, explicitly said it to be null
07:16<LordAro>ew
07:16<LordAro>use something like -1 or some other "default value"
07:17<LordAro>INT_MIN or whatever squirrel's equivalent is
07:17<Samu_>i don't know, never seen it anywhere
07:18<LordAro>well make one
07:18<LordAro>integers in squirrel are 32bits
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07:22<Wolf01>https://apple.slashdot.org/story/18/08/24/0321235/windows-95-is-now-an-app-you-can-download-and-install-on-macos-windows-and-linux ha!
07:22<LordAro>-10000 would likely do
07:23<Samu_>I need a null
07:23<Wolf01>Just change the "if" accordingly
07:23<Samu_>if it's null, it means there was not enough time for a vehicle to make a difference
07:24<Samu_>so I am adding more vehicles
07:24<Samu_>if there is a number
07:24<Samu_>and i don't like that number, i stop adding vehicles
07:25<Samu_>what is the number that I won't like... that is the question
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07:30<Samu_>perhaps this is the wrong approach, will test to see what the final behaviour is
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07:35<Wolf01>Maybe it's time you start to ask questions (even to yourself) like: "I expect profit to be negative?"
07:36<Samu_>i don't mean that
07:36<Samu_>i put a 10000
07:36<Wolf01>You can't code just by guessing
07:37<Wolf01>Maybe at the 15th guess you get it right, but that's not the way
07:37<Samu_>if (best_route_profit != null && best_route_profit < 10000) continue;
07:37<Samu_>continue means don't add more vehicles to this route
07:38<Samu_>if i dont use 10000, i dunno how am i gonna compute a value that I don't like
07:40<Samu_>i think i better copy paste for u to see
07:41<Wolf01>I don't even know how to reply
07:41<Wolf01>Better if I shut up
07:41<Samu_>ok :(
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07:58<Samu_>well, it's working out okayish
07:59<Samu_>the goal was to remove "unprofitable" routes
07:59<Samu_>instead of keeping on adding aircraft to them
08:00<Samu_>but... i guess 10000 is too harsh of a limit
08:00<Samu_>once the route gets 0 aircraft, the airports are eliminated
08:01<Samu_>I gotta find a different approach on getting the value I don't like
08:02<Samu_>I want it to learn that value
08:02<Samu_>compute it somehow
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08:17<andythenorth>City Slickers?
08:17<andythenorth>Emerald City?
08:17<andythenorth>Downtown Train?
08:19<Samu_>hi
08:24<andythenorth>Waterloo Sunset
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09:50<Wolf01>o/
09:50<@Alberth>o/
09:55<LordAro>o/
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10:08<andythenorth>so are water tunnels done yet? :)
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10:18<@Alberth>we have chunnels? :)
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10:48<Eddi|zuHause>water tunnels might work if we have more/better ship classes
10:49<Eddi|zuHause>something like: small (1/2 tile wide), medium (1 tile wide), large (2 tiles wide)
10:49<Eddi|zuHause>then tunnels can be limited to small, or small+medium, or something
10:50<Eddi|zuHause>and we need to construct ships out of smaller sprites, to reduce the glitching
10:51<Eddi|zuHause>so each sprite has a bounding box max 1/2 tile in each dimension
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11:04<Samu_>mail is hard
11:06<Samu_>damn, the estimator is failing
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11:39<andythenorth_>We Built This City (On Rock and Roll)?
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12:41<andythenorth>Farm Town?
12:41<andythenorth>Urban Sprawl?
12:42<andythenorth>hmmm is newgrf town control implemented or just a wiki page?
12:42<@Alberth>what are they?
12:43<andythenorth>I am dreaming up a FIRS economy :)
12:43<andythenorth>Extreme will be deleted
12:43<@Alberth>wet dreams? :p
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12:44<andythenorth>urgh :p
12:44<@Alberth>industrial delight
12:44<andythenorth>Better Living Through Chemistry is 1 of 2 that replace extreme
12:44<andythenorth>theme should be obvious :p
12:45<andythenorth>the other needs a name
12:45<@Alberth>:)
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12:45<andythenorth>theme is delivery to towns, with the main production chains being food and building materials
12:46<@Alberth>feed the towns
12:46<Samu_>i'm doing better in a 4k map, finally
12:47<Samu_>it had some horrible start before
12:47<andythenorth>Burger Van
12:48<andythenorth>Hinterlands
12:48<andythenorth>Urban Decay
12:49<@Alberth>learn to fish!
12:49<@Alberth>no fish in the economy, probably?
12:49<@Alberth>feed thyself
12:50<andythenorth>https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinterland
12:50<andythenorth>Fish seems to be inevitable in all economies
12:51<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think you can put an "s" on "Hinterland"
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12:52<Samu_>what is current usage supposed to mean in the vehicle list window?
12:52<Samu_>it says 100%
12:52<Samu_>100% of what
12:52<andythenorth>it has been done in English
12:53<Eddi|zuHause>i mean, i would see it as an uncountable noun
12:53<@Alberth>Analogous terms include "the countryside", "the sticks", "the boonies", backcountry, boondocks, the Bush (in Alaskan usage), and the outback (in Australian usage)
12:54<@Alberth>It's an area, so that makes sense
12:54<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: but those words are for a different meaning
12:55<andythenorth>I am thinking more about the rural areas in the shadow of a city
12:55<andythenorth>hinterland seems to be contested meaning :)
12:55<@Alberth>surrounding villages
12:55<Eddi|zuHause>well, it's somewhat of a derived meaning
12:58<andythenorth>it’s likely not a good name :)
12:58<andythenorth>non-obvious
12:59<Samu_>not trying to brag, but... https://imgur.com/nafmxIr
12:59<@Alberth>"The soul of India lives in its villages", declared M. K. Gandhi :)
12:59<Samu_>this is weird, i didn't expect wormai to have such a bad start
12:59<@Alberth>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Village
13:00<Eddi|zuHause>also somewhat common name in germany is "Umland"
13:00<andythenorth>Suburbia?
13:00<Eddi|zuHause>which might be more fitting for cities which are not ports
13:00<andythenorth>(pet shop boys song)
13:00<Eddi|zuHause>no, suburbs are something different
13:00<andythenorth>yeah
13:01<andythenorth>what is the theme of this economy?
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13:04<andythenorth>it will have lots of black holes
13:04<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, "um" means (in this case) "around"
13:04<andythenorth>Black Hole Sun?
13:05<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think the term "black hole" is widely understood in the user base
13:05<@Alberth>indeed, unless you talk about those things lots of light years away
13:06<andythenorth>Mass Drop Off
13:06<andythenorth>what cargos can be collected from town?
13:07<@Alberth>can't you have a name related to the city-builders?
13:07<Eddi|zuHause>give mail a purpose?
13:07<andythenorth>I wondered about a city building name
13:07<@Alberth>"Mail with a purpose"
13:07<andythenorth>like We Built This City
13:07<andythenorth>it has to be a book or song or film
13:07<@Alberth>song afaik
13:08<@Alberth>city construction kit
13:08<andythenorth>https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invisible_Cities
13:08<andythenorth>^ good book
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13:10<@Alberth>City trading (variation on title of chapter 5)
13:11<@Alberth>hola
13:11<andythenorth>City Trader
13:11<andythenorth>sounds a bit like stock markets :p
13:11<andythenorth>but eh
13:12<Eddi|zuHause>"Schöner Wohnen"
13:12<andythenorth>so city produced cargos?
13:12<andythenorth>- mail, pax
13:12<andythenorth>- recyclables -> various cargos
13:13<@Alberth>Urban trading
13:13<andythenorth>- “anaerobic digestate” -> farm supplies
13:13<Eddi|zuHause>each house accepts and produces a random cargo, and they move around all the time, making managing routes a nightmare :p
13:13<andythenorth>oof :)
13:13<andythenorth>16 randomised cargos :p
13:15<Eddi|zuHause>"private mail", "business mail", "packages", "same-day-delivery"
13:15<andythenorth>child #1 is keen that I add more processing industries in town
13:16<andythenorth>like small factories and such
13:16<Eddi|zuHause>yeah like bakery, brewery and stuff
13:16<Eddi|zuHause>make the industries smaller (2x2, 1x3) and enforce nearby houses
13:16<andythenorth>small factories are completely legit
13:17<andythenorth>but producing what?
13:17<@Alberth>toy shops
13:17<andythenorth>luxury items?
13:17<andythenorth>photographic supplies?
13:17<@Alberth>refurbished furniturem 2nd hand goods
13:18<Eddi|zuHause>various consumer goods
13:18<andythenorth>pets and tropical fish?
13:18<Eddi|zuHause>you wanted to split up goods anyway?
13:18<andythenorth>garden gnomes?
13:18<andythenorth>yes, goods needs split here
13:18<Eddi|zuHause>jewelry, clothes, watches
13:19<andythenorth>but most commodity industrial cargos need to come from ports
13:19<andythenorth>steel etc
13:19<Eddi|zuHause>seems fine
13:19<Eddi|zuHause>no mining, raw materials are imported
13:20<andythenorth>maybe coal mines
13:20<Eddi|zuHause>there are no mines near Hamburg, London, New York, ...
13:20<andythenorth>you have a point
13:21<andythenorth>but I want to include bdmt commodities
13:21<andythenorth>sand, limestone etc
13:21<Eddi|zuHause>that seems fine
13:21<andythenorth>gypsum, timber
13:22<Eddi|zuHause>clay->bricks, wood->timber
13:22<Eddi|zuHause>cement
13:22<andythenorth>cement imported?
13:22<@Alberth>pre-fabricated houses
13:22<Eddi|zuHause>nah, leave the imports to metal, coal, oil, whatever
13:22<andythenorth>major cities are highly dependent on their ports
13:23<Eddi|zuHause>so cement is local
13:23<Eddi|zuHause>steel is not
13:23<andythenorth>ok
13:23<@Alberth>:O air bridge?
13:24<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: i don't think much steel has been transported by air bridge :p
13:25<andythenorth>oof
13:25<andythenorth>how did I miss that UK cement uses a lot of chalk?
13:25<@Alberth>Eddi: steel may have been looking a lot like an aircraft :p
13:25<andythenorth>that would rebalance limestone, which is over-demanded
13:26<andythenorth>but I’d have to draw a quarry :x
13:26<@Alberth>there is a toffee quary :p
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13:53<Samu_>Wormnest: are you there? is your ai supposed to be bad in 4k maps (aircraft only)
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13:55<Samu_>i need to test this solo
14:02<@peter1138>Everything is bad in 4k maps.
14:02<Samu_>not always the case
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14:08<Wormnest>Samu_: It´s not optimized for 4k by default at least but might also depend on other settings
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14:09<andythenorth>scrap tyres? -> burnt as fuel
14:09<andythenorth>bottled water?
14:09<andythenorth>fizzy drinks?
14:09<Samu_>relatively easy settings
14:09<andythenorth>scientific instruments?
14:09<@Alberth>we have those already!
14:09<Samu_>startin in 1950
14:09<andythenorth>waste oil?
14:09<Samu_>temperate
14:10<@Alberth>scrap tyres could just be fuel imho
14:10<Samu_>reduced breakdowns
14:10<Samu_>no infrastructure costs
14:10<andythenorth>biomass?
14:10<Samu_>reduced plane crashes, aircraft speed 1/4
14:10<andythenorth>demolition rubble -> crushed for aggregate
14:11<Samu_>500k max loan, low running costs, low construction costs
14:11<Wormnest>Maybe it needs longer to get up to speed
14:12<Samu_>i saw him choosing some same towns as my version of ludiai
14:12<Samu_>in a 4k map!
14:12<Samu_>20k towns
14:12<Samu_>and they pick the same :(
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14:13<Samu_>12k, my bad
14:13<Wormnest>Well maybe because they both think those are the best choices
14:13<Samu_>aha, i see him doing much better as solo
14:13<Samu_>fast forwarding 4k maps is a bit slow
14:13<Samu_>rough start though
14:14<Samu_>oh, its decreasing again
14:15<Samu_>https://imgur.com/doTyqtJ
14:15<Samu_>comparing side by side as solo
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14:17<Samu_>and with this, i might consider my "fix" of ludiai finished
14:17<andythenorth>satellites -> launch site?
14:18<Samu_>it's doing better than anticipated
14:18<andythenorth>too much kerbal?
14:18<Samu_>than expected*
14:18<Wolf01>With actual launch of rockets?
14:19<Wormnest>It might do better with the introduction of large airports/airplanes
14:20<LordAro>andythenorth: never enough
14:20<Samu_>I will wait for that
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14:21<Wormnest>So are you going to publish your version of ludiai?
14:22<Samu_>I'm not sure I can do that
14:22<Samu_>licenses stuff and whatnot
14:22<Wormnest>Isn´t it gpl
14:23<Samu_>it says gpl 2.0, but i never seen the original author in the forum at all
14:23<Samu_>feels wrong to publish it
14:23<LordAro>as long as you also release under gpl, there's no issue
14:23<LordAro>i'd probably want to rename it or something
14:24<Wormnest>strike that LordAro was faster in typing lol
14:27<Samu_>it builds too many helistations though
14:27<Samu_>once they're available
14:29<Wormnest>Well you can always improve it in a new version
14:35<@peter1138>19:12 < Samu_> and they pick the same :(
14:35<@peter1138>you need to add some random heuristic so stop that.
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14:38<Samu_>wormai is upgrading airports :p
14:40<Samu_>ludiai doesn't upgrade airports, it just stops building vehicles for that route, and sells vehicles when they're old, and if it finds empty airports, it destroys them, and then it will probably build a hopefuly better airport after
14:40<Samu_>too lazy to code
14:41<@Alberth>that's named "future extension" :p
14:43<Samu_>well, it only does this to the small airport, to be honest
14:43<Samu_>because it expires
14:43<@Alberth>"partially implemented" :)
14:53<Samu_>FFP Dart is available now
14:56<Samu_>seems that the min and max distances are nearly on-target now
14:57<Samu_>probably gonna need a better looking at it, but so far, the results are impressing me
15:00<Samu_>in a single month, wormai doubled the profit
15:00<Samu_>ffp dart must have helped
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16:01<andythenorth>I can’t reliably adjust house carhos, right?
16:02<andythenorth>cargos*
16:02<andythenorth>except by making my own house grf?
16:03<@Alberth>sounds likely
16:04<andythenorth>parcels would make more sense if accepted by houses
16:05<andythenorth>hmm, what if openttd towns didn’t have sewers or mains gas? o_O
16:05<andythenorth>septic tanks -> foul water
16:05<andythenorth>LPG -> houses
16:09<@Alberth>fork swedish houses? :)
16:10<andythenorth>I could :p
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16:10<@Alberth>or supply a patch, and hope it is accepted
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16:30<Wolf01>https://img-9gag-fun.9cache.com/photo/aDxepKd_460s.jpg
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17:08<Samu_>hmm, the min and max distances are overly inflated :(
17:09<Samu_>i knew this would not gonna work in the long run
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17:12<Samu_>must think
17:13<Samu_>The goal is to have it compute the optimal [min, max] distances for a route
17:13<Samu_>interval
17:14<Samu_>so that whenever it attempts to build a new route, the range fits between those values
17:15<Samu_>any ideas how to do this?
17:18<Samu_>regardlessl, it's still increasing profits, but I'm starting to get many vehicles being sent to depots
17:19<Samu_>a closed route will change the min value
17:19<Samu_>it's been increasing way too much :(
17:19<Samu_>i'm getting range intervals of 1936-2514
17:20<Wolf01>Making self playing games which play too much well
17:20<Samu_>that's too many tiles for a route
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17:32<Samu_>perhaps i need a different approach
17:39<Samu_>it's funny, the profits still keep rising...
17:39<Samu_>i was expecting them to stall at some point
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---Logclosed Sat Aug 25 00:00:20 2018