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#openttd IRC Logs for 2018-09-11

---Logopened Tue Sep 11 00:00:45 2018
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05:38<Samu>hey i made a comment
05:40<Samu>sorry about the url, i'm terrible
05:45<Samu>how do i quote multiple lines in a url
05:47<Samu>i don't want to quote only /**
05:57<LordAro>what do you think it wrong with the url?
05:58<LordAro>Samu: can you not use something like TestMode to work out the costs?
05:58<LordAro>it's awkward to use, i know, but..
05:59<Samu>that's the construction cost, not the maintenance cost
05:59<LordAro>maybe a better solution would be to add a getcost function
05:59<LordAro>then you can write your own maintenance cost function
06:00<Samu>I wanted to quote lines 550 to 567
06:00<Samu>only line 550 was quoted
06:01<LordAro>ah right
06:02<LordAro>fixed :p
06:05<Samu>write my own maintenance cost in openttd code or in the ai code?
06:06<LordAro>ai code
06:06<andythenorth>snail_UES_: drawn any wagons yet?
06:07<Samu>thx for fixing quote
06:07<snail_UES_>andythenorth: my wagons are finished already...
06:07<andythenorth>got any covered hoppers?
06:07<snail_UES_>unless you came up with yet any new cargoes :D
06:07<snail_UES_>I have silo wagons...
06:07<snail_UES_>or open hoppers
06:07<andythenorth>I am trying to figure out liveries for silo wagons
06:07<andythenorth>whether I show the cargo somehow
06:08<snail_UES_>mine are simple grey silos, with a colored stripe around their maximum radius (they’re vertical silos)
06:08<snail_UES_>I change the color of the stripe according to the cargo type
06:08<Samu>well, in the AI side, i would have to predict the exact number of road/rail/canal pieces in a route
06:08<andythenorth>snail_UES_: how many different cargo colours have you got?
06:09<snail_UES_>only three I believe…
06:09<Samu>road is complicated, because i don't think it's possible to retrieve the number of bit pieces with the AI
06:09<snail_UES_>let me check the code (I’ve got it handy)
06:09<Samu>on a tile
06:10<Samu>haven't really looked through, but ...
06:11<Samu>i know beforehand that predicting number of pieces would be too tough to do right
06:11<snail_UES_>oh, nope that was my original idea
06:11<snail_UES_>I eventually coded them in the same color to simplify stuff :p
06:11<Samu>predicting it for airports is just straigth forward
06:11<Samu>just need to know which airport type I wanna predict it for
06:11<snail_UES_>but my idea would have been something like, yellow for grain, orange for food, grey for everything else
06:12<andythenorth>yeah I'm thinking I do them all same colour
06:12<andythenorth>I've tried colours per cargo, but somehow it doesn't work
06:13<andythenorth>it does work for tank wagons though
06:13<andythenorth>ok thanks
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06:14<snail_UES_>maybe I’ll change it back to my original idea :p shouldn’t be too hard
06:14<snail_UES_>for tank wagons I’ve also got different colors for different cargoes
06:15<snail_UES_>with random kind-of-realistic color schemas for petrol...
06:15<snail_UES_>such as Shell, BP, Aral...
06:15<andythenorth>I've tried the stripe in colours, and/or the hatches too
06:16<andythenorth>but most of the cargos for covered hopper are white or yellow :)
06:16<andythenorth>so it doesn't really help player
06:18<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on issue #6894: destroy but keep land
06:20<andythenorth>snail_UES_: so what colours might work? o_O
06:21<snail_UES_>in my tank wagons, I'
06:21<snail_UES_>I use two colors
06:21<snail_UES_>one is main and the other one is a square-like symbol on one side (i.e. the petrol company logo)
06:21<snail_UES_>let me double-check which colors I use...
06:22<snail_UES_>I use main blue, white logo (Aral)
06:22<snail_UES_>main blue, red logo (ELF)
06:22<snail_UES_>main yellow, red logo (Shell)
06:22<snail_UES_>and main green, white logo (BP_)
06:23<snail_UES_>a train is uses each of these for all of the wagons, with 25% probability each
06:24<snail_UES_>for other cargoes, I use dark grey (oil), light grey, brown or green (fertilizer), yellow (edible oil, chemical products), or white (water, milk)
06:25<snail_UES_>but my tank wagons are smaller than yours, since they’re narrow gauge, so I have less real estate to play with :p
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07:07<LordAro>andythenorth: thanks for elaborating :)
07:49<Samu>that sell land topic
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07:50<Fantasp>Hello, what do you enjoy about openttd?
07:50<andythenorth>the crack
07:50<Samu>i think he wants to destroy an area of tiles without destroying the land-owned tiles
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08:29<Samu>if (counter == stationTile == null ? 500 : 1)
08:29<Samu>is this gonna work the way I think it works?
08:33<LordAro>probably not
08:34<LordAro>oh, hmm
08:34<LordAro>maybe, but it's sorely lacking some parens
08:34<LordAro>actually, definitely not
08:34<LordAro>you'll end up with if (false == null ? 500 : 1)
09:00<Samu>if (counter == (stationTile == null ? 500 : 1))
09:06<Samu>if i am expanding a station, retry 1 time, else I am building a new station, retry 500 times
09:07<Samu>i'm trying to speed up exanding station code, it takes too much time
09:08<@peter1138>max = (stationTile == null) ? 500 : 1;
09:08<@peter1138>if (counter == max)
09:10<@peter1138>Put the first line before your counter loop, else you'll be evaluating whether to count to 500 to 1 every time you loop.
09:11<LordAro>peter1138: hardly the modt computationally expensive thing on the world
09:11<LordAro>(though i do agree)
09:12<@peter1138>Sure but don't scripts have execution limits?
09:18<Samu>it's still too slow t.t
09:18<Samu>i have vehicles waiting 6 years in depots
09:18<Samu>because of the expanding code :(
09:18<Samu>trying to do it for the 83 routes
09:23<Samu>function buildTownStation is a gigantic piece of code atm :(
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09:36<Samu>i pintpointed the source of the slowdows
09:36<Samu>if (Utils.AreOtherStationsNearby(tile, cargoClass, stationId)) {
09:36<Samu>this thing is slow
09:37<Samu>what is slow in here?
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09:46<Samu>the AI has is_friendly turned off
09:46<Samu>so it's the part before the else
09:47<Samu>or it could be the finalizing part after the if/else
09:51<LordAro>Samu: check the size of the rectangle
09:53<Samu>it's 7x7 or 13x13 if im not mistaken
09:53<Samu>in this case it's 7x7
09:53<Samu>because it's expanding
09:53<LordAro>are you sure of that?
09:54<Samu>coverage of a bus station is 3
09:55<Samu>if the tile is at 3,3 coordinates, the offset will have top tile at 0,0, bottom tile at 6,6
09:56<Samu>that's 7x7
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10:00<Samu>maybe the getValidOffsetTile could be improved
10:01<Samu>my poor skills
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10:14<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Blauw67 opened issue #6898: Seeds above 32bit max int.
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10:19<Samu>there is another rectangle
10:21<Samu>25*25 size
10:23<Samu>code that matters is between lines 27 - 42
10:23<Samu>erm 27-44
10:23<Samu>this is the function that is used to expand stations
10:23<Samu>you see, it's biiiiig
10:24<Samu>but the major slowdown is between 27-44
10:24<Samu>27-48, my bad
10:25<Samu>@calc 25*25*7*7
10:25<@DorpsGek>Samu: 30625
10:25<Samu>hmmm.... :P
10:25<Samu>is that too much
10:27<Samu>there are 85 routes
10:27<Samu>@calc 30625 * 85
10:27<@DorpsGek>Samu: 2603125
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10:40<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] MrOriKlein opened issue #6899: An industry has went over a million production but isn't actually producing anything.
10:45<Samu>gonna try a lower value
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10:47<Samu>yep, much faster
10:47<Samu>but then, it can barely expand :(
10:51<@planetmaker>hm... where is the OpenTTD code gone that's not the game code, like master server. osie etc?
10:52<@planetmaker>that is: where are the missing parts of the svn repo? :D
10:52<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] MrOriKlein commented on issue #6899: An industry has went over a million production but isn't actually producing anything.
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10:53<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] planetmaker commented on issue #6899: An industry has went over a million production but isn't actually producing anything.
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10:57<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] MrOriKlein commented on issue #6899: An industry has went over a million production but isn't actually producing anything.
10:57<@Alberth>hi hi
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11:00<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] MrOriKlein commented on issue #6899: An industry has went over a million production but isn't actually producing anything.
11:02<Samu>cargodist and train renewed?
11:03<Samu>i had that bug happen
11:03<@planetmaker>Alberth, do you know where I currently get / clone from the openttd extra stuff like osie and master server and such?
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11:04<@Alberth>only place I can think of is in another repo in the openttd organization
11:05<@Alberth>but no idea if it's actually there
11:05<@planetmaker>but hg.o.o and svn.o.o both direct to github
11:06<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] planetmaker commented on issue #6899: An industry has went over a million production but isn't actually producing anything.
11:06<@Alberth>yes, the GH openttd organization
11:07<@Alberth>but I don't see it tbh
11:08<@planetmaker>hm, ok. Seems I'm at least not blind
11:09<Samu>planetmaker: i think this is the issue
11:09<@Alberth>you're not the only blind person, at least :)
11:11<@planetmaker>Samu, interesting... though I'm not sure it is because it seems the person *wants* the vehicles to load there
11:11<Samu>that guy screenshots show the depot behind the station, seems to be the same symptom he's having
11:13<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] planetmaker commented on issue #6899: An industry has went over a million production but isn't actually producing anything.
11:16<@planetmaker>good point. Let's see what he replies
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11:19<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] MrOriKlein commented on issue #6899: An industry has went over a million production but isn't actually producing anything.
11:26<LordAro>#6898 is a bit weird... everything i can find about the seed implies it's a uint32
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11:31<@Alberth>so the print routine would be wrong then?
11:31<LordAro>aha, commandline parser is using atoi
11:32<LordAro>out of range is apparently UB
11:33<LordAro>should probably be strtoul
11:33<Eddi|zuHause>maybe we should be switching to a language that isn't filled with UB traps?
11:33<LordAro>or even strtoull, with some bounds checking
11:33*LordAro points Eddi|zuHause at
11:33<LordAro>oh hey, that article is old enough to drink now
11:34<Eddi|zuHause>LordAro: so we need a language without UB that is also fully backwards compatible with C++? :p
11:35<@Alberth>good luck designing that :)
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11:35<Eddi|zuHause>but seriously, range checking is basically a noop nowadays
11:36<Eddi|zuHause>modern compilers can put them in places where the CPU otherwise would wait for memory access to return
11:36<@Alberth>hmm, simplest solution is to use a compiler implementation as the standard
11:36<@Alberth>not very compatible in time though
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11:37<Eddi|zuHause>i think it's more a bureaucratic problem of eliminating some UB traps in the C++ standard
11:37<LordAro>tbf, this is a C issue
11:37<Eddi|zuHause>i hear microsoft is pushing a bit in that direction
11:37<LordAro>not c++
11:38<LordAro>we should upgrade to C++ first
11:38<@Alberth>not really, C++ is designed to be very flexible, so you won't get a C++ standard that defines everything
11:38<@planetmaker>eh, what is the actual issue with 6898? That the input is limited to MAX_INT?
11:38<Eddi|zuHause>not everything, but some more things...
11:39<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: eh, no, that the program does random things before it manages to check for MAX_INT
11:40<LordAro>planetmaker: yeah, commandline input is limited to MAX_INT32, whereas it should be MAX_UINT32
11:40<LordAro>or whatever the constant actually is
11:40<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: many of these UB traps are missing range checks in the library, not a compiler issue
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11:42<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on issue #6898: Seeds above 32bit max int.
11:43<@Alberth>and library isn't updated for backwards compability :p
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12:25<frosch123>planetmaker: migration of extra is in trello
12:25<frosch123>currently you have to use svn-archive
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12:56<Samu>damn, when pressing ctrl-s, the selection changes
12:57<Samu>anyway, it was supposed to be a rectangle of size 25x25
12:58<Samu>so, it's attempting to expand stations inside this rectangle, but the station spread value is 12
12:59<Samu>it tries to expand from within the tile with the name
12:59<Samu>station name*
12:59<Samu>looks like the rectangle doesn't need to be that big
13:03<Samu>half the value of station spread
13:03<Samu>gonna try
13:04<Samu>not really what I should do. It's a moving rectangle
13:04<Samu>but meh, for now it suffices
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13:17<frosch123>if you remove plastics you can add stuff like brass and pewter
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13:26<andythenorth>that is the olde-worlde economy frosch123
13:26<andythenorth>lead, wax, sisal
13:27<andythenorth>jute, hemp, brass
13:27<andythenorth>alchemical supplies
13:27<andythenorth>dragon food
13:29<Samu>@calc 12/2
13:29<@DorpsGek>Samu: 6
13:30<Samu>@calc 6+1+6
13:30<@DorpsGek>Samu: 13
13:30<Samu> local squareSize = AIGameSettings.GetValue("station_spread") / 2; if (AIGameSettings.GetValue("station_spread") % 2 == 0) { squareSize = squareSize - 1; }
13:31<Samu>@calc 5+1+5
13:31<@DorpsGek>Samu: 11
13:32<Samu>i can never get 12
13:34<andythenorth>night soil
13:34<andythenorth>glue from horses
13:34<andythenorth>urine for tanning leather
13:35<andythenorth>corpse for medical research
13:38<frosch123>that's noe olde worlde
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13:41<Samu>retesting the ai in a 4k map again, should be managing expanding road stations faster
13:43<andythenorth>did we do prisoners and prison transport?
13:44*andythenorth can't remember
13:44<frosch123>ecs did
13:44<frosch123>prisoners were consumed by mines iirc
13:45<frosch123>anyway, i am watching old-stuff-restoration videos, and encounter unusual material vocabulary
13:46<andythenorth>child #1 is learning about the linguistic paradoxes arising from special relativity where two observer frames are both in motion
13:46<andythenorth>he's 8
13:46<andythenorth>when I was 8, I just wanted to know the fastest train
13:47<Wolf01>I thought he was learning about GHOTI
13:47<frosch123>when i learned left/right, i thought they were geographical directions like west/east, and always tried to determine my orientation compared to the place where i learned left/right
13:48<Wolf01>I don't remember what I did :(
13:49<frosch123>andythenorth: what vocabulary does that involve?
13:49<andythenorth>fastest train?
13:50<frosch123>or is it about figureing out whether your train moves or the one you see through the window?
13:50<andythenorth>it's that sort of thing
13:50<andythenorth>and how time passes for each observer
13:50<andythenorth>who gets younger relative to who etc
13:50<frosch123>oh, that kind of relativity
13:51<frosch123>well, fat people age slower, iirc
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13:58<andythenorth>so can I do anything to help this along?
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14:45<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] EgyLynx commented on issue #6899: An industry has went over a million production but isn't actually producing anything.
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16:14<Eddi|zuHause>haha, "a million production" when it's just 1000, with a weird unit inflation
16:15<Eddi|zuHause>probably has nothing to do with the problem
16:16<LordAro>someone should download the save and see :p
16:16<Eddi|zuHause>uhm, that file was tagged as "contains a virus"
16:21<Eddi|zuHause>AI bought exclusive transport rights
16:22<Eddi|zuHause>that's why no cargo
16:22<LordAro>that'd do it
16:24<LordAro>perhaps there should be a message in the station window
16:26<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on issue #6899: An industry has went over a million production but isn't actually producing anything.
16:34<andythenorth>lol @ that
16:34<Eddi|zuHause>there is, when you click on "transported"
16:35<LordAro>well then.
16:35<LordAro>someone else can close it :p
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17:00<andythenorth>wonder if there's a var for 'vehicle is loading'
17:00<andythenorth>specifically loading, not unloading
17:00<andythenorth>probs not
17:01<Eddi|zuHause>i remember that being tricky to distinguish even in the code
17:01<Eddi|zuHause>closest would be the code that displays the up/down arrows next to the loading-%
17:04<andythenorth>it's not essential
17:04<andythenorth>I have closed hoppers which are loaded through roof doors
17:05<Eddi|zuHause>none of newgrf spec is "essential"
17:05<Eddi|zuHause>it would still be nice to have
17:05<andythenorth>it will look weird to have open roof hatches when unloading
17:05<andythenorth>although actually realistic in some cases
17:10<LordAro>Eddi|zuHause: amusingly, chrome won't even let me download that file
17:13<Eddi|zuHause>i don't know what signature it picked up on, though, there's only the sav file in there
17:13<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on issue #6899: Not clear when an opponent has exclusive transport rights
17:13<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] MrOriKlein closed issue #6899: Not clear when an opponent has exclusive transport rights
17:13<LordAro>zip file from a dodgy site, i think
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17:14<andythenorth>"Upload your file for zipping here, plus bonus malware"
17:21<Samu>expanding stations seems faster, but not as fast as I would hope
17:21<Samu>management is still rather slow
17:22<Samu>gives the AI less air time for aircraft
17:23<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] bou6 commented on issue #6891: Question Building the project on Windows
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17:56<LordAro>that's why my original music isn't working
17:56<LordAro>it's looking for GM_TT00.GM, and my files are
17:56<LordAro>nielsm: fix :p
17:57<LordAro>though hmm, that is how they're specified in the orig_win.obm
17:59<nielsm>there are some annoyances with upper/lower case yes
17:59<LordAro>did it look case insensitively before you made your changes, ooi?
17:59<LordAro>because these files haven't changed in years
18:00<nielsm>I think it did
18:00<nielsm>there is some logic in one of the Fio* functions that tries the filename as specified, and then a lowercased version too
18:02<nielsm>but imma sleep, gn
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18:05<LordAro>ah, it also only searches baseset/
18:05<LordAro>and my files are in gm/
18:05<LordAro>because old
18:06<LordAro>that's definitely an issue though, because it's picking up the .obm in the gm/ dir
18:07<LordAro>yeah, that's the actual issue here, not the case issue
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18:25<LordAro>and now that i've fixed my timidity setup, it's doing much better
18:27<Samu>imgur is slow atm
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18:36<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro opened pull request #6900: Fix #6839: OLD_GM_DIR midi search path got lost
18:36<Samu>do any of the sites work? grr
18:36<Samu>maybe it's my internet
18:41<Samu>trying bus vs bus only
18:41<Samu>and no station spread
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18:52<Samu>AroAI plans faster
18:53<Samu>LuDiAI AfterFix is a bit more cost conscious about the route
18:53<LordAro>aroai hardly plans at all :p
18:53<Samu>they're essentially tied the first 10 years
18:54<LordAro>iirc, its process is 1) find city 2) build routes to all towns in a 250(?) tile radius around it
18:54<LordAro>3) done
18:54<Samu>oh, 250
18:54<Samu>i think LuDiAI has it set to 115? and then 115 * 1.2 if it couldn't find
18:55<LordAro>actually, 250 seems way too big
18:55<Samu>tries twice
18:55<LordAro>probably no more than 100
18:55<Samu>suddenly LuDiAI took off! 12 years into
18:55<Samu>leading now
18:56<Samu>strange that AroAI still has a better pathfinding success
18:56<Samu>than mine
18:58<Samu>ah, i see why aroai is doing bad after 12 years
18:58<Samu>no autorenew
18:58<Samu>breakdowns everywhere
18:59<Samu>wow, my AI crashed, wow that's unexpected lol
19:00<Samu>fixed, that was because I was moving the order at which stuff was being managed
19:00<Eddi|zuHause>i always wanted an AI that makes a voronoi partition of the map, and then builds all the cnnections
19:00<Samu>some local variables weren't accounted for
19:01<Samu>retrying with breakdowns disabled
19:01<Eddi|zuHause>i think i managed to implement the partition, and list all neighbours of each city
19:02<Eddi|zuHause>next step was "?"
19:02<Eddi|zuHause>not sure why there's no profit yet
19:03<Samu>@google voronoi partition
19:06<Samu> One of the early applications of Voronoi diagrams was implemented by John Snow
19:06<Samu>you know nothing John Snow
19:09<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro opened pull request #6901: Add: Fluidsynth music driver support (jmak)
19:24<Samu>AroAI isn't cargodist aware, or is it?
19:24<Samu>doesn't seem like it is
19:25<LordAro>it predates cargodist :p
19:26<LordAro>well, it predates cargodist being in trunk
19:26<LordAro>cargodist as a patch has been around for many years
19:27<Samu>i'm a bit confused what the plan is
19:27<Samu>connect 1 big town to nearby small towns?
19:28<Samu>damn, my ai builds ridiculously long bridges once he has the money, and aroai is taking full advantage of it :(
19:34<Samu>retesting with cargodist disabled
19:41<Samu>ah, aroai shines better with cargodist disabled, and in temperate
19:41<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro updated pull request #6901: Add: Fluidsynth music driver support (jmak)
19:41<LordAro>Samu: much fewer passengers in other environments
19:44<Samu>aroai will win if it keeps this rate
19:44<Samu>the main advantage of aro is really it's planning speed
19:45<Samu>mine gets slower the more routes there are, management is slow
19:45<Samu>and pathfinder takes more time and fails more often
19:45<Samu>unsure why's that
19:48<Samu>the end
19:49<Samu>68 stations vs 158 stations
19:49<Samu>it's more than twice as fast
19:53<Samu>gonna try different settings for my ai
19:53<LordAro>Samu: achieved nearly the same value with less than half the stations though
19:53<LordAro>it's clearly more efficient
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19:54<Samu>oh, i see lordaro expands stations, i thought it didn
19:55<Samu>ok now mine expands stations, station spreads and is not friendly and not random
19:55<Samu>let's see
19:59<Samu>yeah, what a difference
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19:59<Samu>these seem to be it's most competitive settings, it's doing much better
20:00<Samu>station spreading is really imba :(
20:03<Samu>i blame station spreading
20:04<Supercheese>there are plenty of exploits if you're just wanting to make moneyz
20:09<Samu>i'm off to bed, cyas take care
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---Logclosed Wed Sep 12 00:00:46 2018