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#openttd IRC Logs for 2018-09-12

---Logopened Wed Sep 12 00:00:46 2018
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02:45<andythenorth>moin
03:19<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro merged pull request #6900: Fix #6839: OLD_GM_DIR midi search path got lost https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/pull/6900
03:19<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] planetmaker pushed 1 commits to master:
03:19<DorpsGek_II> - Fix #6839: OLD_GM_DIR midi search path got lost (#6900) (by LordAro)
03:19<DorpsGek_II>https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/commit/ca5b68145ad6
03:24<LordAro>:)
03:31<andythenorth>patches :)
03:34<@planetmaker>:) moin
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03:42<andythenorth>snail_UES_: do you cycle any liveries using depot flip?
03:42<andythenorth>or is that just me?
03:46<snail_UES_>andythenorth: in a depot, I only randomly flip certain engines
03:46<snail_UES_>liveries only change through players’ actions
03:46<andythenorth>how many vehicle liveries do you have typically?
03:47<snail_UES_>2 or 3 for most of them...
03:47<snail_UES_>they’re based on real-life companies though
03:47<snail_UES_>some engines only get one, a few others get like 5 or 6
03:48<snail_UES_>I’m also adding a parameter to turn the set in 2cc colors for people who don’t care about realism :p
03:48<andythenorth>:)
03:48<andythenorth>I have vehicles with 2 liveries, which are selected by flipping the vehicle in depot
03:49<andythenorth>I'm wondering if we can have 2 bits for flip, and cycle them
03:49<andythenorth>giving 4 liveries
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05:00<Samu>road depots can be "removed"?
05:01<Samu>i thought "demolish" was the only option
05:02<Samu>what will it leave behind? pieces of road?
05:05<Samu>return ScriptObject::DoCommand(tile, 0, 0, CMD_LANDSCAPE_CLEAR);
05:06<Samu>hah...
05:06<Samu>resorts to demolish
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05:24<snail_UES_>andythenorth: 4 statuses for flipping?
05:25<snail_UES_>flipping now works well as “flipped” vs. “not flipped"...
05:25<snail_UES_>livery cycling can be done in different ways, i.e. through refitting, or randomly
05:25<snail_UES_>a better solution would be purchase list variants :)
05:39<Samu>the difference between 10k opcodes and 250k opcodes is abysmal
05:39<Samu>something that is usually done in 50 days, is done in 2 days
05:41<Samu>@calc 10*50
05:41<@DorpsGek>Samu: 500
05:41<Samu>@calc 250*2
05:41<@DorpsGek>Samu: 500
05:41<Samu>yeah.. makes sense
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06:04<andythenorth>snail_UES_: there's an idea for purchase list variants also
06:04<andythenorth>I like the livery flipping, it's really quick and easy
06:04<snail_UES_>but flipping is used for another purpose
06:05<snail_UES_>there are vehicles that can run backwards
06:05<andythenorth>yes
06:05<andythenorth>I am abusing it
06:05<snail_UES_>and that’s what flipping is used for...
06:05<snail_UES_>using 2 bits for that would break this
06:05<andythenorth>nah, it can be masked
06:06<andythenorth>so 0 and 2 are unflipped, and 1 and 3 are flipped
06:06<andythenorth>simples :)
06:06<snail_UES_>I still think there could be a better way
06:07<snail_UES_>with this methdology, we would soon think that 4 liveries to cycle through will be “not enough"
06:07<snail_UES_>and I can clearly see people asking for more bits allocated to this...
06:07<snail_UES_>purchase list variants would be a more expandable solution
06:07<andythenorth>yes
06:08<andythenorth>I wouldn't propose the flip cycle as the best solution to liveries
06:08<andythenorth>it's more a harmless option for silly hacks
06:08<snail_UES_>people would easily abuse it :D
06:09<andythenorth>I already did
06:09<snail_UES_>yeah, the point is, you did and now are requesting an additional bit
06:09<snail_UES_>the next person would ask for another bit...
06:09<snail_UES_>and so forth
06:11<andythenorth>we'd end up with a byte
06:12<snail_UES_>guess so…
06:12<andythenorth>more than a byte is silly
06:12<snail_UES_>and I’d have to rewrite some of my code :p
06:12<snail_UES_>since I’m checking for flipped status countless times
06:13<snail_UES_>but TBH I still prefer my current way to cycle across liveries
06:13<andythenorth>it would have to work in a backwards compatible way
06:13<snail_UES_>i.e. with refitting to passengers. It allows the user to directly choose tge livery he wants
06:14<andythenorth>yeah I've seen that route
06:14<andythenorth>I never ever use cargo refit so it doesn't work for me :)
06:14<snail_UES_>well, I’d be happy to give it up if we had purchase list variants ;)
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06:34<@peter1138>You're not getting extra bits for flipping.
06:34<@peter1138>It's not logical.
06:44<andythenorth>such logic
06:45<andythenorth>what if it flip was n-dimensional :P
06:45<andythenorth>-it
06:45<andythenorth>BUT HOW WILL I DO STUPID HAX?
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06:49<@peter1138>Don't :D
06:50<Samu>the ai now removes stuff that failed to be removed
06:50<Samu>it adds to a scheduleremoves
06:51<Samu>that is run from time to time
06:51<Samu>yay
06:51<Samu>success
06:51<Samu>and it saves and it loads
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06:52<Samu>this means i can speed up the expanding station code better
06:52<Samu>er, the result of this is that
06:52<@peter1138>I'm not sure why openttd doesn't just save the whole state itself.
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06:53<@peter1138>I suppose that would be more complex in many cases.
06:54<andythenorth>peter1138: so no flipping? :(
06:54<@peter1138>You can flip as much as you like, but using it for livery selection is definitely a bad feature.
06:57<andythenorth>we need buy menu groups then :P
06:57<andythenorth>oof
07:02<Samu>ugh... 5k opcodes and very slow construction speeds is very very slow
07:02<Samu>800 days to complete first route :(
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07:15<andythenorth>hmmm
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07:50<Samu>hmm, iterating routes backwards has a disadvantage
07:50<Samu>a new route is appended to the end of the routearray
07:51<Samu>managing routes backwards would mean that older routes will have to wait a bit longer for their management turn :(
07:51<Samu>that's not good
07:52<Samu>perhaps this is fine
07:52<Samu>it has to iterate all routes anyway
07:53<Samu>unsure what to do
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08:00<Eddi|zuHause><andythenorth> what if it flip was n-dimensional :P <-- what now, you want to flip up/down as well? :p
08:01<Eddi|zuHause>i'll side with peter1138 on this one.
08:02<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: what dimension is 'I changed the colours of the pixels'?
08:02<andythenorth>it is a dimension IMHO :P
08:02<andythenorth>there's a colourspace
08:02<andythenorth>flipping 1CC and 2CC is 'reversing' if I twist the words enough :P
08:08<Samu>hmm, ai is failing to build depot
08:08<Samu>damn it
08:08<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: but then, you would need a modifier key for each dimension independently. it can't be a "cycle"
08:08<andythenorth>I am God
08:09<Samu>because the whole tiles adjacent to the road have houses
08:09<andythenorth>I can control the dimensional cycle
08:09<andythenorth>with nml
08:09<andythenorth>or dice
08:09<Eddi|zuHause>"flip" is by definition a cycle of 2
08:09<Samu>maybe i should demolish houses
08:09<Samu>lol
08:09<Eddi|zuHause>(unless you're trying to insert a USB stick)
08:10<andythenorth>ow https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flip_graph
08:10<andythenorth>that is not quite what I was looking for
08:10<andythenorth>hurts my head
08:11<andythenorth>I was trying to find a tetrahedron flip, which has a cycle of 4
08:12<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: with geometric objects, you have two operations: mirroring and rotating
08:13<Eddi|zuHause>mirroring is a cycle of 2, rotating is a cycle of n
08:13<andythenorth>hmm
08:13<Eddi|zuHause>(sometimes)
08:14<andythenorth>I will defer to you
08:14<andythenorth>nobody is going to add me another bit anyway :(
08:14<andythenorth>not even for lulz
08:15<Eddi|zuHause>if you're going to change the code, might as well do it properly
08:16<Eddi|zuHause>for cycles longer than 2 the UI is just going to be annoying
08:18<Eddi|zuHause>and you're causing a ton of followup problems, like what if a person wants to change the available liveries over time?
08:22<andythenorth>nah
08:22<andythenorth>that's not silly hax
08:22<andythenorth>that's doing things properly
08:22<andythenorth>this isn't a solution to liveries, it's for stupid easter eggs
08:22<andythenorth>but as we all learn, too many easter eggs make you sick ::
08:23<andythenorth>:P
08:26<andythenorth>hmm if we did have buy menu groups....
08:26<andythenorth>...the endless possibilities :P
08:43<andythenorth>oof but autoreplace :(
08:56<Eddi|zuHause>well, with buy menu groups, you could make autoreplace handle either the whole group, or individual entries, based on player choice
08:57<Eddi|zuHause>you can't do that with hackyflips
08:57<andythenorth>I don't need convincing about groups :)
08:58<andythenorth>but meanwhile my hackyflips mean I need to do a lot of drawing :P
08:58<andythenorth>I can't use recolour sprites for hopper liveries because of the cargo colours
08:58<andythenorth>unless.....
08:58<andythenorth>ha I can put the loads on another layer
08:58<andythenorth>almost like it was intended to be that way :P
08:59<andythenorth>thanks for that Eddi|zuHause :)
09:00<Eddi|zuHause>i'm not sure what i had to do with that
09:00<andythenorth>you were integral
09:00<andythenorth>it was practically your idea
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09:00<andythenorth>now I just need to refactor ~everything
09:01<Eddi|zuHause>i have loads of ideas
09:01<andythenorth>so
09:01<andythenorth>recolour sprites
09:01<andythenorth>currently I only use them to flip 1CC / 2CC, and frosch wrote that for me
09:01<andythenorth>https://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/iron-horse/repository/entry/src/templates/graphics_switches.pynml#L21
09:01<andythenorth>I need to remap a bunch of other colours too :P
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09:02<Eddi|zuHause>i don't even remember what part of that idea was supposed to be mine
09:03<andythenorth>the bit where you convinced me not to use hackyflip for more than 2 liveries
09:03<andythenorth>very persuasive
09:03<andythenorth>hackyflip is the new BAD FEATURE
09:04<andythenorth>recolour sprites are just A: B pairs?
09:04<andythenorth>I do PIL based recolour maps already like this https://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/iron-horse/repository/entry/src/gestalt_graphics/graphics_constants.py#L61
09:16<@peter1138>livery labels? :p
09:16<andythenorth>ow
09:16<andythenorth>then you could replace like for like
09:16<andythenorth>but o/c
09:16<andythenorth>there would have to be newgrf defined rules :P
09:17<andythenorth>so that Santa Fe -> BNSF
09:17<andythenorth>and we could have a spec for that
09:18<andythenorth>WHO ANIMATED THOSE PIXELS
09:18<andythenorth>nml hates me
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10:22<Samu>i got a weird assert triggering
10:22<Samu>there was no reason for it to happen
10:24<Samu>AITile.GetClosestTown(tile) has returned 2 different values
10:27<Samu>it returned the town to the left during valuator
10:27<Samu>later on in the code it returned the town to the right
10:27<Samu>on the same tile
10:27<Samu>why
10:30<Samu>founding towns isn't enabled
10:30<Samu>why did I get 2 different values?
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10:49<Samu>ok i see
10:49<Samu>during valuator, there was a house in the tile, a house belonging to the town to the left
10:50<Samu>later on, when doing the 2nd check, the house was no longer there
10:50<Samu>the closest town then was the town to the right
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10:51<Samu> case MP_HOUSE: return Town::GetByTile(tile);
10:51<Samu>stupid rules
10:51<Samu>wasn't aware of that
10:52<Samu>i still dont understand something
10:52<Samu>is buildable rectangle passed that check
10:53<Samu>maybe I do... during valuator, there was a house
10:53<Samu>during buildable rectangle there wasn't
10:53<Samu>bah
10:58<Samu>trash code https://paste.openttdcoop.org/p0lthy3jn
10:58<Samu>do i always have to check the nearest_town is still the same town?
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12:17<Samu>4k map test reachin 2051 soon
12:40<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on issue #6891: Question Building the project on Windows https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/issues/6891#issuecomment-420716456
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13:23<TrueBrain>so I was wondering why I was not receiving email on @openttd.org .. turns out clamd was being ...... euh .. weird
13:23<TrueBrain>and the email to notify me about that ... is ..... acting weird :D
13:24<andythenorth>hello TrueBrain :)
13:24<TrueBrain>hi :)
13:25<andythenorth>"This should not happen!! Data will be lost"
13:25*andythenorth busy eh
13:25<TrueBrain>clamd couldnt boot as it was running out of memory ... fantastic ... 1GB not enough for you :(
13:25<Eddi|zuHause>1GB for booting?
13:26<TrueBrain>I think something got corrupted
13:27<TrueBrain>right, seems it broke-ish 3 days ago
13:27<TrueBrain>and it started to amplify itself
13:27<andythenorth>your day is just like mine
13:27<TrueBrain>every message resending etc
13:31<TrueBrain>96 mails in the inbound queue :D
13:31<TrueBrain>clamd needs 700 MiB of RAM to run :o
13:31<TrueBrain>what the fuck ....
13:35<TrueBrain>1 email was tried 23k times ... LOL
13:35<TrueBrain>right .. it now started to dequeue again :)
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13:36<Wolf01>o/
13:40<TrueBrain>I always disliked clamd .. but what can you do :)
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13:51<andythenorth>the things I do for pointless Easter Eggs :)
13:51<andythenorth>changing the layout of about 20 spritesheets
13:52<andythenorth>refactored 2 graphics pipelines
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13:52<andythenorth>probs 4 hours actual work + thinking time
13:52<Wolf01>Lol, you are a fool
13:52<andythenorth>for something nobody will find
13:52<Salamander>Hi, how do I estimate how much income each train trip will produce?
13:53<Salamander>before I lay the tracks
13:53<andythenorth>"git gud"
13:53<andythenorth>oh sorry, this isn't the tank game :)
13:53<andythenorth>Salamander: it's something you learn by experience only :)
13:53<andythenorth>we have 'save' and 'load' :)
13:54<Salamander>:]
13:54<Salamander>how few tiles are too few for a train connection where a truck connection would do better?
13:54*andythenorth coutns
13:55<andythenorth>are you using any newgrfs?
13:55<andythenorth>or just base game?
13:55<Salamander>yes, a bunch
13:55<andythenorth>depends on the newgrfs, I wouldn't run a train less than about 16 tiles
13:55<andythenorth>but it's very variable
13:55<Salamander>so, once more, save/load? :]
13:56<Salamander>let's try this another way
13:56<Salamander>could you point me to the source code which calculates this?
13:56<Salamander>assuming its not spread all over the palce
13:57<andythenorth>it's probably in station or vehicle https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/tree/master/src
13:57<andythenorth>I am not sure :)
13:58<andythenorth>I am looking for CargoPayment
13:59<andythenorth>sorry didn't find an answer
14:00<Salamander>thank you for looking
14:00<Salamander>how nice that openttd uses github \o/
14:01<Salamander>I haven't played for some years, so I downloaded the latest release a few days ago, and was stunned by the amount of addons and the level of detail
14:03<andythenorth>we have all been busy :D
14:04<Salamander>well done
14:05<andythenorth>this is my last 36 hours with Iron Horse dev https://xkcd.com/349/
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14:42<andythenorth>I got a new text editor
14:42<andythenorth>it's remarkable
14:46<andythenorth>it autocompletes things like brackets and quotes
14:46<andythenorth>and also suggests autocompletions for varnames and stuff
14:46<andythenorth>my old editor was basically notepad with syntax highlighting :P
14:46<andythenorth>I've caught up to 1997
14:47<frosch123>if you use "smart" editors you have to stick to one though
14:47<frosch123>otherwise it's hard to predict what you need to type yourself and what is autocompleted
14:47<frosch123>so you always have to reread what you typed
14:48<frosch123>sometimes i find lines ending in ";;" at work
14:48<andythenorth>that happened already
14:49<frosch123>one ; autocompleted, one ; typed manually without noticing that the editor alread yput one
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14:54<Samu>is zuu responsible for 90% of ai libraries?
14:55<andythenorth>99%
15:00<andythenorth>I blame ebay
15:01<andythenorth>keeps showing me grey hoppers (drawn)
15:01<andythenorth>and brown ones (many hours of work to achieve) :P
15:10<Samu>are rail/road tiles tiles of type road or rail?
15:10<Samu>i forgot
15:13<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] MrOriKlein commented on issue #6899: Not clear when an opponent has exclusive transport rights https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/issues/6899#issuecomment-420764886
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15:17<frosch123>39 new mails, was it necessary to fix the server? :p
15:17<andythenorth>rule: select all mail, delete
15:18<Samu>return IsTileType(t, MP_ROAD) && IsLevelCrossing(t);
15:18<Samu>well, why is it in the AIRail category, it only confuses
15:19<Samu>https://noai.openttd.org/api/trunk/classAIRail.html#51cf344269103ee3b00b79a2c1962f1a should be in AIRoad, or at least AIRoad should also have it
15:19<Samu>just saying :(
15:21<andythenorth>so
15:21<andythenorth>definitely I can't have 2 vehicle bits for a depot flip cycle? o_O
15:21<andythenorth>https://andyleonard.blog/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/NoPonyForYou.jpg
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17:02<Samu>This script took too long in the Load function. Script is not started.
17:02<Samu>HALP
17:02<Samu>what is this
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18:01<Samu>problem solved
18:06<Samu> function Save() { while(!loading); AILog.Warning("Saving...");
18:06<Samu>is that while gonna do what I think it's gonna do?
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18:13<+glx>infinite loop when loading is false, if that's what you think
18:34<Samu>should be loading is true, my bad
18:35<Samu> while(loading) { AILog.Warning("Still loading, can't save yet...") }
18:38<Samu>i dont understand
18:38<Samu>if it isn't loading any data, how come it is saved?
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18:45<Samu>there's something going on... if I didn't let the AI load the data from the save, how come when I save and load it back, the data is there?
18:45<Samu>magic?
18:46<Samu>this does not make any sense!
18:46<Samu>.
18:48<Samu>does this mean I don't need to load any data at all? i dont understand what's going on, why is the data there
18:48<+glx>loading happens only when you load the savegame
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18:52<Samu>but...
18:53<Samu>i didn't load the data in the Load() function
18:53<Samu>i moved it to Start()
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18:55<Samu>it didn't start
18:55<Samu>or at least I don't think it did
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19:02<Samu>https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pdvlasfad
19:03<Samu>glx: i saved a game
19:04<Samu>then i loaded it and paused the game right away, before it started main Start()
19:04<Samu>so all that part from line 88 below was not executed
19:04<Samu>I save at this point again
19:05<Samu>I expect nothing to be saved
19:05<Samu>but when I load it back, all the data is there
19:05<Samu>why
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19:42<Samu>https://imgur.com/eH79LFX
19:42<Samu>this is better than an outright crash
19:42<Samu>:(
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---Logclosed Thu Sep 13 00:00:47 2018