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#openttd IRC Logs for 2018-09-19

---Logopened Wed Sep 19 00:00:56 2018
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03:00<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] jmakovicka updated pull request #6911: Codechange: Improve (un)zoom performance https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/pull/6911
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03:08<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #6911: Codechange: Improve (un)zoom performance https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/pull/6911#issuecomment-422682511
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03:14<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] jmakovicka updated pull request #6911: Codechange: Improve (un)zoom performance https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/pull/6911
03:15<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] jmakovicka commented on pull request #6911: Codechange: Improve (un)zoom performance https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/pull/6911#issuecomment-422684699
03:18<LordAro>peter1138: poke wrt 6780 6784
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03:34<Samu_>hi
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04:25<Samu_>darn config settings poof'ed
05:46<Samu_>Bridges will only be build starting on non-flat tiles * for performance reasons.
05:47<Samu_>damn performance reasons
05:49<Samu_>https://imgur.com/a/PCcMieG - performance reasons
05:50<Samu_>https://imgur.com/wxTdHiK - underperforming
05:51<Samu_>well, it 1 more year
05:51<Samu_>i see what they mean
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10:11<Samu>can buses transport other cargo than passengers?
10:12<Samu>like mail?
10:12<Samu>are there weirdo newgrfs that change these kind of rules?
10:14<nielsm>maybe the wastelanders thing?
10:18<Samu>oh, i see
10:18<Samu>i selected passengers, it detects mail
10:18<Samu>hmm
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10:41<Samu>so mail are wastelanders
10:41<Samu>but bus stops are what they need
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10:44<Samu>oh, it actually built a bus station
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11:56<m3henry>LordAro: would breaking the SmallVector -> std::vector up in to individual pull requests for each type be a more manageable strategy?
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11:58<andythenorth>well
11:58<m3henry>'lo
11:59<andythenorth>peter1138 electric bike happened
11:59<andythenorth>they are weird
12:02<LordAro>andythenorth: ono
12:03<LordAro>m3henry: probably not individual PRs, but the commits could be a bit more "logical"
12:04<andythenorth>this, except mine includes pedals https://i.redd.it/wgd4ph4j7ri01.jpg
12:04<andythenorth>the one in the photo seems to lack them
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12:05<andythenorth>I think this might have been better, but eh http://sandiegoflyrides.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/charger-768x512.jpg
12:05<andythenorth>limited stock, I wanted a bike
12:05<andythenorth>so chose what they had
12:06<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] M3Henry commented on pull request #6817: PR for Modernizing for C++11: replacing instances of SmallVector https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/pull/6817#issuecomment-422861526
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12:07<m3henry>Oh I didn't spot the response
12:08<m3henry>what exactly do you mean by more '"logical"'
12:32<LordAro>m3henry: one logical change at a time - i imagine something that adds the (temporary) functions for vector, a (massive) commit that updates types/functions (should be close to one for one line changes), then more commits that neaten up the code (auto, for loops, std algorithms, etc)
12:33<m3henry>So that would be 3 PRs then?
12:34<LordAro>3 commits
12:35<LordAro>you could make an argument that the latter commits could be separate PRs, but i don't see the benefit
12:35<LordAro>ideally, the temporary functions wouldn't exist in the master branch at any point, imo
12:35<m3henry>same
12:36<m3henry>I was thinking of slowly removing usage of Smallvector directly
12:37<LordAro>m3henry: my own thought was to make smallvector a child class of std vector
12:37<LordAro>not sure how well that would woek in practice
12:37<LordAro>work*
12:38<m3henry>hmm
12:39<m3henry>That might work well actually
12:40<m3henry>The implementation of smallvector can be changed to use std::vector, and slowly things switch to using std::vector's interface, finally the types can be changed from smallvector to std::vector and smallvector removed
12:42<LordAro>:>
12:43<m3henry>It has the added benefit that 'logical change' can be grouped by method, rather than by type
12:43<LordAro>aye
12:43<LordAro>Begin & End should be easy :p
12:43<m3henry>:3
12:44<m3henry>If that's the route that would be easiest to review then I wil pursue that
12:44<LordAro>seems to me like it might be
12:44<LordAro>might want to check with an actual dev though :p
12:44<LordAro>frosch123: ^ ?
12:45<m3henry>AsS you already pointed out it's a large pile of work and it makes sense to know what strategy will fit in with the review methodology before starting
12:53<m3henry>I'll check back when I get home (45mins)
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13:10<andythenorth>ooof
13:10<andythenorth>141 trains drawn, 55 to go
13:10<Samu>how do i use superlibs road pathfinder? I'm trying to look for a smarter/faster road pathfinder
13:11<Samu>roadpathfinder4 is dumb when it finds rails and rivers
13:11<andythenorth>samu you need a bear :)
13:11<andythenorth>http://blog.adrianbolboaca.ro/2012/12/teddy-bear-pair-programming/
13:12<Samu>oh, i usually talk to myself
13:12<Samu>or use this chat, as ppl have mentioned
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13:13<Wolf01>o/
13:14<Samu>A wrapper around the A* based road path finder library. It changes some costs and adds ability to cross rail/canals with bridges.
13:14<Samu>https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=65&t=47525
13:15<Samu>sounds tasty
13:20<andythenorth>Samu: but if you use the channel as a bear, I can't :P
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13:29<Samu>aha
13:29<Samu>it has been improted
13:29<Samu>import("Util.SuperLib", "SuperLib", 40);
13:29<Samu>now how do i pathfind with it
13:30<andythenorth>hmmm
13:30<andythenorth>Iron Horse 2 has some serious conceptual flaws
13:30<andythenorth>design is wrong
13:30<andythenorth>throw away?
13:30<LordAro>Copper Cow
13:30<andythenorth>ooh nice name
13:31<andythenorth>there should be a newgrf called that
13:31<andythenorth>or a pub
13:31<andythenorth>TL;DR there are some minor issues with my set design
13:32<andythenorth>but usually $someone here has to point out that the problem is that there are problems with my design
13:32<andythenorth>and if my design was good, there would be no problems with it :)
13:32<andythenorth>usually it's V453000 or Eddi|zuHause
13:32<LordAro>probably is a pub called that already
13:32<andythenorth>possibly the only time V453000 and Eddi|zuHause outright 100% agree on something
13:32<LordAro>yup
13:32<LordAro>in chiswick
13:33<andythenorth>and Halifax
13:33<Eddi|zuHause>if V and me agree on something, you have a serious problem :p
13:33<andythenorth>at that point Eddi|zuHause, I then have two problems :P
13:34<andythenorth>my design assumes 6 train generations
13:34<andythenorth>except for metro (3)
13:34<andythenorth>and narrow gauge (undecided)
13:34<andythenorth>this causes some odd-looking code (fixable) and some design headaches
13:35<andythenorth>maintaining progression and some sort of relative balance is tricky when interleaving 4 NG generations into 6
13:35<Eddi|zuHause>i'm not a fan of the minimalist approach: "i arbitrarily decided to have at most X things, now i need to cut away stuff that makes sense"
13:35<andythenorth>also, there are 6 wagon generations, speed limited
13:36<andythenorth>but NG only has one generation, no speed limit
13:36<FLHerne>Wow, someone mentioned the existence of Eritrean Railway https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Rail_vehicles_of_Eritrea
13:36<andythenorth>which seems inconsistent in a non-useful way
13:36<andythenorth>player has to learn how the set works twice
13:36<FLHerne>This thing is cute https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e8/Minitriebwagen.JPG
13:36<andythenorth>FLHerne: I have looked at Eritrea for Horse
13:36<andythenorth>it's an unusual triumph of human effort in difficult circs
13:36<andythenorth>or something
13:36<Eddi|zuHause>is that much different from other african railways?
13:37<andythenorth>they managed to preserve ancient rolling stock through a civil war
13:37<andythenorth>with basically no funds
13:37<andythenorth>that's unusual
13:37<Eddi|zuHause>lots of african places had a civil war, though
13:37<Eddi|zuHause>and no funds
13:37<andythenorth>http://www.internationalsteam.co.uk/tales/liberiatales02a.htm
13:39<FLHerne>Eddi|zuHause: Even by African standards, it's tiny
13:39<Eddi|zuHause>there is this railway in tansania, where delays are measured in "if the train doesn't come today, it'll come tomorrow"
13:40<andythenorth>hmmm
13:41<FLHerne>Eddi|zuHause: http://www.trainweb.org/eritrean/scrapbook/who/mebrat_tzehaie/a.jpg
13:41<andythenorth>well I could draw 3 generations of NG wagon
13:42<andythenorth>the visual difference will be pretty minimal
13:42<FLHerne>(that was the only passenger service at that end of the line)
13:42<Eddi|zuHause>that does look a bit more improvised than average :p
13:42<FLHerne>Also, https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/99/Eritrea_Schienen-LKW_W500.jpg
13:42<FLHerne>And this! https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a0/Railtrack_maintenance_vehicle.JPG
13:42<andythenorth>the open car is only 45 pixels http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/iron-horse/push/LATEST/docs/html/trains.html#open_car_ng_pony_gen_1A
13:43<FLHerne>The wiki article says they have a /fleet/ of those converted trucks
13:43<Eddi|zuHause>ok, using trucks for rail is not that uncommon in developing countries
13:43<andythenorth>making 3 different ones is limited
13:43<andythenorth>lol railbikes :)
13:43<andythenorth>they are common-ish too
13:43<FLHerne>I guess once you've figured out how to build one, you might as well make some more
13:44<Eddi|zuHause>i've seen a video of a railway in thailand or burma or something like that
13:44<andythenorth>yeah I am looking for the myanmar stuff
13:44<andythenorth>http://www.railpictures.net/photo/638184/
13:45<andythenorth>http://www.railpictures.net/showphotos.php?railroad=Namtu%20Mines%20Railway%20(Myanmar)
13:46<Eddi|zuHause>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3502lHaZQIo
13:46<Eddi|zuHause>i think that is the one i watched
13:46<FLHerne>Eddi|zuHause: I mean, other countries have odd underresourced branches in backwater areas
13:47<FLHerne>This is the most-improvised thing I've seen forming the entire national network
13:48<Eddi|zuHause>i guess you're right about that
13:48<FLHerne>It's an odd underresourced branch, except it connects the two largest cities
13:48<andythenorth>I should draw this for horse http://www.railpictures.net/photo/550382/
13:49<andythenorth>Iron Water Buffalo
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13:50<andythenorth>check out the belt drive https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ba/a8/7a/baa87a75d8dd43796a989dd3c694a73a.jpg
13:51<andythenorth>and I assume that's the fuel tank on the roof
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13:59<andythenorth>programmer complaints: http://tonsky.me/blog/disenchantment/
14:09<Eddi|zuHause>saves a fuel pump to put the tank on the roof
14:12<andythenorth>hope there are no low bridges
14:12<Eddi|zuHause>if you watch the video above, the guy who films it is clearly on top of that roof
14:17<andythenorth>sometimes I wonder if 6 wagon generations is a BAD IDEA
14:17<andythenorth>but I found nothing better
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14:44<Eddi|zuHause>i think i have about 4½ cargo wagon generations and about 5 or 6 passenger generations, but it's not very clean
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14:47<andythenorth>it makes a mess with speeds
14:47<andythenorth>if only we had vehicle groups in buy menu
14:48<andythenorth>or something :P
14:57<andythenorth>so I need 3 or 4 NG wagon generations
14:57<andythenorth>maybe 3 only
14:57<andythenorth>pictures of wagons would help :P
15:05<Eddi|zuHause>1880, 1920, 1960 and 2000?
15:06<andythenorth>1860, 1950, 1990 apparently
15:06<andythenorth>NG speed seems to be capped 35mph until 1950
15:07<andythenorth>that might be accident not design
15:07<andythenorth>but it has a limited range to work within
15:07<andythenorth>currently caps out at 55mph, could go to 65mph, but quite quite unrealistic :)
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15:17<Amadar>Anyone out there to talk?
15:18<LordAro>@topic get -3
15:18<@DorpsGek>LordAro: English only
15:18<LordAro>wait
15:18<LordAro>@topic get 3
15:18<@DorpsGek>LordAro: Don't ask to ask, just ask
15:18<LordAro>that one
15:18<Amadar>English all the way.
15:18<Amadar>Anyone know where I can find traffic for the town, besides my own?
15:19<LordAro>cars grf + towncars ai usually, right?
15:20<Amadar>That's it LordAro.
15:21<Samu>superlib road pathfinder is slower :(
15:21<Samu>bah
15:21<Amadar>Would be great for town traffic to somehow hinder your path to success too. More challenging.
15:26<Amadar>Anyone need some tips? Welcome to share mine.
15:27<Amadar>Also have challenge for those who play single player.
15:28<andythenorth>?
15:29<Amadar>andy you in?
15:31<Amadar>Anyone playing sinlge player, here goes. Fire up a new game, pick a spot and place your HQ. From the town you have picked build your depots only in this town and try to expand your empire. Switch OFF repairs in settings. See how hard it can be.
15:37<Eddi|zuHause>other than placing hq, that sounds mostly how i play my games
15:37<LordAro>could you achieve that via gameacript, i wonder?
15:37<andythenorth>hmm
15:37<andythenorth>I use escape depots a lot
15:37<LordAro>can't restrict placing depots/stations, can you?
15:37<andythenorth>I would have to change play style
15:38<Amadar>I would love to a script for it, unfortunately I can't code yet.
15:38<Eddi|zuHause>gamescript cannot prevent building, but immediately destroy
15:38<LordAro>heh, financial punishment for trying
15:39<Amadar>Sadly no, true to yourself, placing depots only in the town. quite a challengfe to get our trains from one depot, stop others and route the new trains to their new destinations.
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15:39<Amadar>It gets hectic once you have a booming network.
15:41<Eddi|zuHause>it's fine for trains, but busses or trams?
15:41<Amadar>How do you setup a scenario playing online server. Saw some games that notions; first player to reach 4000 habitants wins.
15:41<Amadar>Tried to create a game, but no such options. Maybe a script?
15:42<Amadar>Busses and trams the same rule applies.
15:42<Amadar>See your HQ and official start point is where everything branches out.
15:42<Amadar>Makes the game even tougher if played on a large map.
15:42<LordAro>andythenorth: nice article btw
15:43<andythenorth>kinda
15:43<LordAro>that guy is my spirit animal
15:43<andythenorth>although kinda moany
15:43<andythenorth>the "google keyboard is bigger than win 95" is an interesting point
15:43<Amadar>Keep going
15:44<Amadar>Where you guys from?
15:45<Amadar>Maybe we can setup a multiplayer online and hit the game.
15:58<Amadar>Thanks for the chat, hitting the deck - hope to hear from you guys again.
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16:29<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] steils opened pull request #6912: Fix #6854: Compilation with ICU 62 https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/pull/6912
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17:14<Wolf01>'night
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17:15<Samu>so I'm updating the AI version info, and it complains about HasNext does not exist
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17:35<Samu>i change every HasNext into !IsEnd?
17:35<Samu>borin
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17:45<LordAro>HasNext hasn't existed in... 7 years?
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17:51<Samu>regular expression
17:51<Samu>must use
17:51<Samu>and i dunno how to use
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18:13<Samu>who's a regular expression expert?
18:14<Samu>for (local bridge = m_bridgeTiles.Begin(), i = 0; m_bridgeTiles.HasNext(); bridge = m_bridgeTiles.Next(), ++i) {
18:14<Samu>wanna replace whateverishere.HasNext() to !whateverishere.IsEnd()
18:15<Samu>using notepad++
18:16<+glx>no need for a regex, a standard search&replace should work
18:16<+glx>hmm sorry not reading correctly, a regex is needed
18:23<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on issue #6631: In singleplayer, you cannot buyout one human-player company as another. https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/issues/6631#issuecomment-422978473
18:26<LordAro>Samu: s/([A-Za-z0-9]+)\.HasNext/!\1.IsEnd/
18:26<LordAro>might need some backslashes in palces
18:26<LordAro>places
18:27<+glx>(\S+)\.HasNext should work too
18:27<Samu>what do i put in Find what
18:28<LordAro>heh
18:28<Samu>all that?
18:28<LordAro>glx: that would be shorter
18:28<+glx>in search you type (\S)\.HasNext
18:28<LordAro>i've run into too many regex engines that don't have \S
18:28<+glx>in replace you put !\1.IsEnd
18:29<+glx>I just read http://docs.notepad-plus-plus.org/index.php/Regular_Expressions
18:29<Samu>https://regex101.com/r/sH5hZ4/1 fail
18:29<Samu>ops, that's not my code
18:30<LordAro>regex101 is great
18:30<LordAro>it gives you a nice explanation of what it's doing in the top right
18:30<LordAro>you should read that
18:31<Eddi|zuHause>"First they came for "master/slave replication", and I did not speak up because I was not a DBA."
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18:37<Samu>https://regex101.com/r/rNbZVu/1
18:37<Samu>it werks!
18:38<+glx>try with \S because m_anything will be left out
18:39<Samu> m_!tileList
18:39<Samu>crap
18:40<+glx>yes replace [..] stuff with \S
18:42<Samu>cool, thx
18:42<m3henry>LordAro: It seems I can make std::vector<T> interface compatible with SmallVector<T, S>, except that T must be default constructible.
18:42<LordAro>oho
18:43<m3henry>There are a couple of classes which do not have default constructors
18:43<m3henry>which are used for T
18:44<LordAro>these are the ones nielsm noted before, i think?
18:44<m3henry>I don't recall that conversation
18:45<m3henry>I probably wasn't there
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18:47<m3henry>It's probably okay to add those default constructors in temporarily?
18:48<m3henry>It may not though, I'll have to check tomorrow
18:48<Samu>this.town_list.HasNext()
18:49<Samu>works too
18:49<Samu>list2.HasNext() too
18:49<Samu>nice thx
18:49<+glx>yes because \S exclude all spaces
18:50<Samu>updated AI API requirements to 1.1
18:50<Samu>testing
18:51<Samu>should try 1.8 asap
18:51<LordAro>there are very few breaking changes except that one
18:51<LordAro>it's in the AI changelog :)
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18:53<Samu>i need old openttd versions to test this api compatibility, right?
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18:56<Samu>according to https://noai.openttd.org/api/trunk/ai__changelog_8hpp.html, if I use AIEngine::GetMaximumOrderDistance, the minimum openttd version is then 1.2.0, right? what about the api? 1.2.0 too?
18:57<Samu>open ttd 1.1.0 would not be able to run it?
18:59<Samu>if the api info i set is 1.0, and I use a 1.2 feature and I have OpenTTD 1.1.0, the script will crash when it tries to use AIEngine::GetMaximumOrderDistance?
19:00<+glx>yes the script can't call an inexistant function
19:00<Samu>okay, so min api is 1.2
19:00<Samu>which also makes openttd 1.2.0 minimum
19:04<Samu>oh, i also use AIStation::GetCargoWaitingVia
19:04<Samu>that bumps it to 1.4
19:06<Samu>AICargo::GetDistributionType also 1.4
19:06<Samu>seems that 1.4 is the requirement
19:09<Samu>AIOF_SERVICE_IF_NEEDED does not exist :(
19:10<Samu>https://noai.openttd.org/api/trunk/classAIOrder.html#ca4eab6320c32ec982461231f14d1c6e, ah i see
19:14<LordAro>"AIOrder has all its types renamed from AIOF_ prefix to just OF_ prefix."
19:14<LordAro>1.2
19:16<Samu>done
19:17<Samu>renamed all that to be compliant with 1.4
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19:27<Samu>now i need a openttd 1.4 to really test it
19:28<LordAro>you really don't need to bother :p
19:31<Samu>i dont like the current pathfinder that I use
19:31<Samu>doesn't build bridges over rivers and over rails
19:31<Samu>it tries to contour it
19:32<Samu>can i modify the pathfinder?
19:32<Samu>i tested editing it
19:33<Samu>but could i include it in my AI?
19:33<Samu>instead of importing a library
19:33<Samu>i include it in
19:34<Samu>major problem in my edit is that it becomes much slower, as it tests bridge building in almost every tile
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