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#openttd IRC Logs for 2018-09-20

---Logopened Thu Sep 20 00:00:57 2018
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04:36<FLHerne>Samu_: Yes, if the license is compatible
04:36<FLHerne>I don't see why you care about very old OTTD versions at all
04:49<Samu_>@calc 12/2/4+1
04:49<@DorpsGek>Samu_: 2.5
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04:50<Samu_>@calc (12/2/4)*2+1
04:50<@DorpsGek>Samu_: 4
04:51<Samu_>@calc (14/2/4)*2+1
04:51<@DorpsGek>Samu_: 4.5
04:51<Samu_>@calc (11/2/4)*2+1
04:51<@DorpsGek>Samu_: 3.75
04:51<Samu_>@calc 12/2%4
04:51<@DorpsGek>Samu_: 2
04:52<Samu_>@calc 6%4
04:52<@DorpsGek>Samu_: 2
04:52<Samu_>@calc 6/4
04:52<@DorpsGek>Samu_: 1.5
04:52<Samu_>bah, how do I get 6/4 = 1 in this calculator?
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05:27<LordAro>@calc 6//4
05:27<@DorpsGek>LordAro: 1
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08:54<Samu_>almost there
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08:55<Samu_>it shall never build level crossings
08:55<Samu_>only bridges
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09:16<LordAro>when was the last time someone compiled OTTD on morphos?
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09:19<LordAro> not since 2009, methinks
09:44<Samu_>yay, I did it
09:44<Samu_>I created a trap
09:45<Samu_>but the pathfinder builds his own bridge
09:45<Samu_>over the rails
09:45<Samu_>the buses are also smart
09:46<Samu_>they aren't walking into the level crossing tile as well
09:46<Samu_>I'm happy
09:48<Samu_>but now the pathfinder is utterly slow :(
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10:01<Eddi|zuHause>i'm pretty sure morphos got dropped because of lack of gcc4
10:07<LordAro>there's quite a bit of code left in that's specific to it
10:08<Eddi|zuHause>i'm not sure there's a reason to remove that
10:08<LordAro>dead code tends to bitrot
10:09<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but as long as there's no maintenance effort wasted there, what's the harm?
10:09<Eddi|zuHause>it could be used by someone in the future to revive the port
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11:12<crem3>Hello openttd people.
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12:23<Samu_>can i save the pathfinder state into a savegame somehow?
12:25<Samu_>"you tried to save an unsupported type..."
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12:26<Samu_>I dont even know what's in there
12:31<Samu_>oh, i have to edit graph.aystar thing to support load/save?
12:33<Samu_>it's an instance
12:33<Samu_>how to save instances?
12:34<Samu_>not even a table
12:34<Samu_>or array
12:34<Samu_>but an instance, i have no idea how to save an instance
12:34<@Alberth>of course not, a path finder is code with data
12:35<@Alberth>can't you extract the path from it, and save that in an array or so?
12:37<Samu_>i was splitting the pathfinder progress into intervals
12:37<Samu_>pathfind for 100 interactions and then if no path wasn't found yet, save pathfinder current progress
12:38<@Alberth>ah, yes, then you need to save state
12:38<Samu_>do some other stuff like managing the rest, or even build an aircraft route, and then, on the next cycle, return
12:38<LordAro>probably not worth saving pathfinder state itself, more like current route so far
12:38<LordAro>which you can store outside the pathfinder
12:39<@Alberth>you're talking about AI ?
12:39<@Alberth>if so, can't you just drop the state, and recompute it again when you load the game ?
12:39<Samu_>i guess so
12:40<@Alberth>may cost a few cycles, but saves lots of headaches
12:40<Samu_>but that means it's losing time
12:40<Samu_>oh, i see
12:40<LordAro>if it were doing the whole route at once, maybe it would be worth it
12:40<LordAro>but that's kinda the point of splitting it up anyway - doing it in small chunks
12:40<@Alberth>unless you save and reload every game day, I wouldn't worry too much about those cylces
12:42<Samu_>m_pathfinder = null; goes back to null
12:42<@Alberth>you could extract the small chunk from the pathfinder, and save it in a list or so in the vehicle
12:42<@Alberth>instead of querying the next tile each time, query the entire small part in one go
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12:47<Samu_>hmm have to estimate a max_cost for the pathfinder
12:47<Samu_>if I am to let it run infinitely
12:47<Samu_>but at intervals
12:48<Samu_>or it can take 2500 cumulative days without finding anything
12:48<Samu_>just to tell me no path found
12:49<nielsm>a player loading a saved game from another day will typically also need some time to remember what s/he was doing last ;)
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13:01<@Alberth>no, I always save with the next thing to work on in the middle of the screen :)
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13:09<Wolf01>Meh... faulty math parser... -2*-2 = --4
13:09<Heiki>during a game, is there any easy way to find out which vehicles are available, other than building depots for every transportation type?
13:09<frosch123>open the vehicle list and click "available vehicles"
13:10<frosch123>i think it even works for specators
13:10<Heiki>oh, thank you, that was too obvious
13:13<Eddi|zuHause><Wolf01> Meh... faulty math parser... -2*-2 = --4 <-- well, it's not wrong :p
13:13<Wolf01>No, but when you have 123/--4 it is
13:14<Wolf01>Division by zero, because that's the fault
13:14<Eddi|zuHause>really, if i were building a math parser, -2*-2 would be invalid syntax
13:14<nielsm>just search/replace -- with +
13:14<nielsm>or empty string
13:15<Eddi|zuHause>can only have unary operators at the beginning of a string or a (
13:15<Wolf01>nielsm: not so easy, you might want + when there's a number or ) before, but empty if there's nothing
13:19<Wolf01>The problem is that the functions can't tell if the - is the sign of the number or if a subtraction operation, and they treat it always as subtraction
13:19<Wolf01>I need to debug it (luckily I've some unit tests) and try to fix it
13:19<Wolf01>Or trash it and look for another one
13:20<Eddi|zuHause>uhm, that should be a trivial change to the grammar you're building your parser from
13:22<Wolf01> <- I started from this one because can easily be adapted to the language we use, but I think I'll take a c# one and make it a library
13:22<LordAro>i think i've rewritten in cmake
13:22<LordAro>god is it an ugly language
13:25<LordAro> lovely
13:27<Wolf01>About ugly languages, we should talk again when you've tried a block language in form of code, it tricks you that you are writing code but instead you are making blocks, you can't reliably use copy/paste and a lot of classic features of a code editor, and I don't speak about when you type in the wrong keyword and it creates an entire structure you don't want and you are forced to ctrl-z multiple
13:27<Wolf01>times (which doesn't work as it's expecting a value to be inserted) so you have to hit ESC (one time, because 2 times closes the editor) and ctrl-z again
13:27<frosch123>you left the else/endif () empty :p
13:28<LordAro>frosch123: yeah, couldn't think of anything good to put in them when there was an elseif above
13:28<Wolf01>I mean a language like this:
13:29<frosch123> <- that was a funny read during lunch
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13:30<frosch123>a beginner writes a terrible peace of code, other people praise it, it gets top search hits, people discover all the fundamental flaws, meanwhile-less-beginner author asks people to stop commenting :p
13:30<Wolf01>Ha! :D
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13:47<Samu_>pathfinder not too smart
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13:53<Samu_>since i'm editing the pathfinder, gonna try solve this
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13:57<nielsm>oh yeah if you can make those "down-up" "up-down" sequences not appear that'd probably help a lot making the AI appear smart
13:57<andythenorth>is there anything good on the internet?
13:58<nielsm>the internet is shit
13:59<nielsm>Samu_: but arguably eliminating "down-up" sequences might not be worth the while when running under "realistic acceleration" rules
14:00<Samu_>the bridge is owned by the town
14:00<nielsm>(and for sufficiently overpowered trains, "up-down" can also be ignored)
14:01<Samu_>the tile in front of the bridge is owned by the AI, hmm
14:01<Samu_>i think i know where in the code this happens, let me see
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14:09<Samu_>AIRoad.CanBuildConnectedRoadPartsHere(cur_node, path.GetParent().GetTile(), next_tile)
14:09<Samu_>seems fine
14:09<Samu_>why didn't it fail
14:12<Samu_>oh, the pathbuilder builds backwards, i have to look at this in the opposite way :(
14:13<Samu_>pathfinder first tile is 26789
14:13<Samu_>then 26790
14:13<Samu_>then the bridge, owned by the town
14:13<Samu_>the pathbuilder does the opposite
14:13<Samu_>bridge first, then 26790, then 26789
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14:23<andythenorth>so how is TrueBrain? o_O
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14:40<Eddi|zuHause>man this trump guy is funny... first he's all like "the mexicans will pay for this wall" and then he gets upset when he doesn't get a budget for this wall, that wasn't supposed to cost anything?
14:41<andythenorth>he's just a regular narcisstic pyschopath
14:41<andythenorth>who has managed to be unusually lucky
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15:06<Eddi|zuHause>also this concept of a government shutdown is completely foreign to me
15:07<Eddi|zuHause>over here, "no new budget" means "well, we'll just continue in the spirit of the old budget then"
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15:09<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: old governments have it harder
15:09<Eddi|zuHause>i believe it was Bismarck who introduced that concept
15:09<frosch123>switzerland did not get women suffrage till 1970
15:09<frosch123>all other european countries got by either 1920 or 1945
15:10<frosch123>uk has all land owned by knights or something
15:10<frosch123>in other countries everything was disowned at some point
15:12<Samu_>pathfinder is weird
15:12<Samu_>i'm getting the parent of the parent of the cur_tile
15:13<Eddi|zuHause>there are a lot of layers in that
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15:14<frosch123>well, no need to make the MI conclusion
15:16<Samu_>i think i solved the issue, not really sure, as the pathfinder decided on an entirely different way
15:16<andythenorth>frosch123: allegedly the Estate of the Duke of Westminster owns contiguous land from west of Bristol all the way to London
15:17<andythenorth>houses where I live are mostly leasehold (on 999 year leases), with a nominal ground rent paid to the landower....
15:17<andythenorth> my old house it was the Duke of Westminster
15:18<frosch123>could you call him when something was broken?
15:18<andythenorth>frosch123: I could have tried
15:18<Samu_>decided not to go through that bridge at all, build further to the south
15:18<andythenorth>he's probably on LinkedIn :P
15:19<andythenorth>LinkedIn is awful, I tried it
15:19<andythenorth>it's a horrid place
15:19<Samu_>the check was made on the last line of attempt 1/5
15:20<Samu_>decided to discard this route :(
15:20<andythenorth>when did Chrome go cartoon?
15:20<andythenorth>must have been an update :P
15:20<frosch123>chrome and firefox swapped their themese
15:21<frosch123>firefox changed from round to angled
15:21<frosch123>chrome changed from angled to round or something
15:22<andythenorth>FF has introduced an interesting behaviour with cached pages on https
15:22<andythenorth>and the back button
15:22<andythenorth>it fails all the time
15:22<andythenorth>with errors, then 'try again' errors differently
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15:23<andythenorth>73% of Iron Horse sprites done :P
15:23<Eddi|zuHause>"There are C programmers that are younger than this code sample." haha :p
15:24<frosch123>when andy states progress, i always wonder whether he drew more sprites or deleted more plans
15:24<Eddi|zuHause>probably the latter
15:24<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: how many bugs did you find in ht_hash() ?
15:24<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: haven't really looked at the code
15:25<frosch123>today i needed a hash function in plain c (no std::hash), and google gave me that
15:25<frosch123>i did not copy :)
15:26<andythenorth>frosch123: all 3
15:26<andythenorth>you missed an option :P
15:26<frosch123>you drew 3 sprites?
15:27<andythenorth>sometimes I find I missed a vehicle, but it's a copy-paste
15:27<andythenorth>so total goes up, but % completed goes up slightly faster
15:28<andythenorth>I wasted 4 days on stupid easter eggs last week though :P
15:28<andythenorth>ctrl-click livery nonsense
15:29<frosch123>do sprites say "i do not like this, please rotate me back"?
15:29<andythenorth>not so far
15:29<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: you mean like ?
15:29<andythenorth>although I provided all my own offsets
15:29<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: exactly
15:29<andythenorth>there is an XKCD for all occasions
15:29*andythenorth tests that
15:29<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: looks pretty much like the latest xkcd
15:30<andythenorth>I tried 'divorce'
15:30<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: there is also
15:31<andythenorth>did Wolf01 fix NRT yet? o_O
15:32<Wolf01>I'm fixing a math parser @work, drains energies
15:33<andythenorth>people getting jobs is why OpenTTD dies
15:33<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: how hard could it be? writing a simple parser from scratch is like 1 hour
15:34<andythenorth>harsh :P
15:34<Eddi|zuHause>well, assuming the parser generator is already installed
15:34<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: are you sure you would be done argueing about writing one in an hour?
15:34<Wolf01>The problem is that boss want speed, which means I need to find stuff which already does the job, and lose time to fix it
15:35<Wolf01>Because learning how to do it well takes more time
15:35<Eddi|zuHause>what kind of speed?
15:35<frosch123>implementation speed, not runtime speed
15:35<Wolf01>Like "I want it for this evening"
15:35<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: did you not read LA's text yesterday?
15:35<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: well, i'd not be done discussing whether to use lex/yacc or flex/bison in one hour
15:36<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: which text?
15:36<frosch123>you can reserve the second hour for bison2 vs bison3
15:36<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: the text about the guy that still dreams that programmers could write good software smoe day
15:37<Eddi|zuHause>i read that
15:37<Eddi|zuHause>it's a nice dream
15:37<frosch123>then you should have known that noone cares about runtime speed, if you can blame it on the customer
15:37<Eddi|zuHause>it dies immediately on a boss saying "i'm not paying you for THAT, do THIS"
15:38<andythenorth>my friend found the same article, but from 2002
15:38<andythenorth>and I'm sure there are some in mythical man month or similar from 1967 or so
15:38<frosch123>no, it actually dies immediately because most programmers do not find the 3 major bugs in ht_hash()
15:38<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: like i said, i haven't actually looked
15:38<andythenorth>'if software was cars'
15:39<andythenorth>but software is more
15:39<andythenorth>I was going to say novels, or architecture
15:39<andythenorth>but it's just like software
15:39<frosch123>andythenorth: there was a counter-speech to that once
15:39<andythenorth>just one?
15:39<andythenorth>or several competing counter speeches?
15:39<frosch123>if cars developed like computers, they would drive at lightspeed or something
15:39<andythenorth>all built on dubious foundations?
15:40<andythenorth>software is awful :P
15:40<Eddi|zuHause>but if cars doubled speed every 2 years, the world would still sit in a giant traffic jam
15:40<nielsm>if cars were developed like computers their fuel consumption would rise every year
15:40<andythenorth>they did
15:40<frosch123>oh, andy's text even cites that story in the intro :p
15:41<andythenorth>but the software was tweaked to hide it
15:41<Wolf01>Nah, my current PC consumes fewer than the one I had 15 years ago
15:41<nielsm>and you'd get the engines going out more and more often
15:41<andythenorth>due to equipment and safety, car weight allegedly increased significantly in last 20 years
15:41<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: but your cell phone?
15:41<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: and your watch?
15:42<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: and all the ~2000 computers in your car
15:42<andythenorth>if there were more engineers, would software get better or worse?
15:42<@Alberth>we'd just have more software
15:43<Eddi|zuHause>there would be more software, so also more worse software.
15:43<Eddi|zuHause>what's missing is an environment where the good software bubbles to the top
15:43<Eddi|zuHause>some kind of "natural" selection that prevents bad software from spreading
15:43<andythenorth>I lived through a brief period of working software
15:43<@Alberth>stuff is too uniq
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15:44<andythenorth>there were about 5 golden years of OS X and most of the 3rd party mac apps
15:44<andythenorth>where they literally just worked
15:44<andythenorth>it was remarkable
15:44<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: certainly there are more game developers than 20 years ago, which is why steam is drowning in bad games
15:44<andythenorth>then it ended
15:45<Wolf01><Eddi|zuHause> some kind of "natural" selection that prevents bad software from spreading <- the opposite of internet
15:45<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: that's because the appleverse is effectively a monopoly. and monopolys always degrade like that
15:45<andythenorth>it was deceptive, because for several years in a row, it only got better
15:45<andythenorth>so it seemed like progress would continue
15:45<andythenorth>then it plateaued
15:45<andythenorth>and now it yings and yangs between bearable, and horrific
15:45<LordAro>all computers are pretty terrible
15:46<andythenorth>mine crashes every few weeks
15:46<andythenorth>that's ridiculous
15:46<andythenorth>I used to have macs that would stay up for a year
15:46<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: it's because there is no way to switch back and forth between, say, microsoft and apple. once you pick a side, you're vendor-locked
15:47<andythenorth>only for photos of your family
15:47<andythenorth>pretty much everything else is platform neutral
15:47<@Alberth>try running an apple program at a windows machine
15:47<Eddi|zuHause>apple's tendency to remove standard interfaces (like headphone jack or USB port) doesn't fit that
15:48<andythenorth>but Office 365 is just a subscription
15:48<andythenorth>Adobe CC is just a subscription
15:48<andythenorth>Dropbox is just a subscription
15:48*LordAro runs andythenorth in a web browser
15:48<andythenorth>the only lock in is the sync with my phone
15:48<@Alberth>single vendor
15:49<andythenorth>how can we fix it all?
15:49<andythenorth>or we can't? :P
15:49<andythenorth>draw pixels instead
15:50<Eddi|zuHause>is that just me, or has xkcd's random button stopped working without javascript?
15:50<Wolf01>I'm playing F with a friend
15:50<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: it's all just awful
15:50<andythenorth>has that guy implemented chrome inside openttd yet?
15:51<andythenorth>basically that, that is all the wrong
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15:56<frosch123>openbu still posting?
15:57<frosch123>i would think they have reached the age of 16 by now
15:57<andythenorth>there seem to be charts
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15:59<frosch123>and olympics
16:00<LordAro>oh god, the electron guy
16:01<LordAro>well at least 1.2.6 has been done
16:02<LordAro>you might argue that 1.2.5 has been rewritten
16:02<LordAro>1.2.7 is oddly specific
16:03<frosch123>yeah, i also wondered about 1.2.7
16:03<LordAro>be nice if there was a way to pipe station production data out thougj, i guess
16:03<LordAro>or can the admin port do it?
16:04<frosch123>the admin port can do everything in theory
16:04<frosch123>it's just kind of hard to setup
16:05<frosch123>you need a gs and an external tool
16:09<LordAro>be nice if the gs wasn't necessary, i guess
16:10<andythenorth>shall I close old PRs? o_O
16:10<andythenorth>as 'not happening'
16:10<LordAro>are there any?
16:10<andythenorth>not yet :)
16:10<LordAro>i didn'y spot any obvious ones the other day
16:10<andythenorth>I think 3 months without activity is minimum grace period
16:10<andythenorth>maybe longer
16:11<LordAro>i think that's what TB wanted to do
16:11<LordAro>as long as they're waiting on author
16:11<andythenorth>I should make a filter that excludes those
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16:15<frosch123>there is nothing wrong with having a page of PRs
16:15<frosch123>if you need more reviewers you need to offer them a selection of stuff to review
16:16<andythenorth>I just need to filter out the ones that aren't moving
16:16<andythenorth>oh samu's can be merged?
16:16<frosch123>if stuff moves, clean your screen
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16:25<andythenorth>74% :P
16:26<andythenorth>just 50 trains to draw :P
16:26<andythenorth>and the ones I forgot to add yet
16:26<LordAro>6902, 6912 can be merged immediately, imo
16:27<LordAro>6904 needs checking that the autogenerated stuff is correct (i think samu did it manually)
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16:28<LordAro>and possibly checked whether it's necessary
16:28<LordAro>6906 & 6911 look fine to me too, but need someone more knowledgable than i
16:28<LordAro>same for the nielsm PRs :p
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16:29<nielsm>6912 the ICU one, is it confirmed it doesn't break any versions of ICU that should continue working?
16:30<LordAro>don't see why it would
16:31<LordAro>it's been in a namespace all along afaik, they've just removed the using icu... from the headers
16:31<LordAro>you're welcome to test on an old debian stable if you like though :p
16:31<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick merged pull request #6902: Fix #6892: [Script] CONFIG_RANDOM range limit
16:31<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 pushed 1 commits to master:
16:31<DorpsGek_II> - Fix #6892: [Script] CONFIG_RANDOM did not use the full parameter range (#6902) (by SamuXarick)
16:31<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick closed issue #6892: CONFIG_RANDOM bug
16:32<nielsm>the sprite sorting change is probably correct
16:32<nielsm>I don't understand the SSE4 code though
16:32<frosch123>the second sprite sorting pr looks way better than the first one, definitely :)
16:35<frosch123>6912 is weird... how did it compile before?
16:35<nielsm>6754 clone tool, making the requested change to it should be rather simple, even if not by the original PR author
16:35<frosch123>was there some hidden "using namespace icu"?
16:35<LordAro>frosch123: yeah, they've been removing it in newer versions
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16:35<LordAro>there was a similar PR (that i did) for v61
16:36<nielsm>does anyone know if peter1138 will set aside the bike when winter arrives? :)
16:36<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] steils merged pull request #6912: Fix #6854: Compilation with ICU 62
16:36<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 pushed 1 commits to master:
16:36<DorpsGek_II> - Fix #6854: Compilation with ICU 62 (#6912) (by steils)
16:36<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Polynomial-C closed issue #6854: Build failure with icu-62.1
16:37<LordAro>nielsm: wouldn't bet on it :p
16:40<nielsm>anyone I'm off to bed
16:40<nielsm>shall take time this weekend to test the fluidsynth music thing
16:40<nielsm>might also be worth (as a separate change later) to make it work on windows, maybe
16:41<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 commented on pull request #6906: Fix #6742: Only possible to build station next to competitor by using CTRL+click
16:42<LordAro>nielsm: i didn't write the code, but it looks simple enough that i should be able to modify it as necessary
16:42<LordAro>in theory.
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16:55<andythenorth>nice, closed PRs :)
16:56<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 commented on issue #6908: Request: Persistent storage for vehicles
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17:01<frosch123>^^ just scaring people who consider working on that :p
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17:08<andythenorth>can we not just cache George's big calculation? :P
17:08*andythenorth invents horrible caching system
17:09<andythenorth>if result is same 5 times in a row (when called), it's never calculated again
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17:40<Samu_>(path.GetParent() == null || path.GetParent().GetParent() == null || AIRoad.CanBuildConnectedRoadPartsHere(next_tile, path.GetParent().GetParent().GetTile(), cur_node))
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17:46<Samu_>if the parent of the parent of the cur_node exists, this would fix the ERR_LAND_SLOPED_WRONG
17:46<Samu_>if it doesn't exist, I'm not sure what to do
17:47<Samu_>CanBuildConnectedRoadPartsHere is the holy grail function
17:47<Samu_>and I wouldn't be able to use it
17:47<Samu_>so, hmm what could I do
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18:02<m3henry>LordAro: Looks like implementing SmallVector in terms of std::vector only requied 3 value structs to gain default constructors. Now I can start deprecating individual methods
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18:19<Eddi|zuHause>sounds like you're having a really great time
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18:55<Samu_>who's the resident aystar expert :p
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---Logclosed Fri Sep 21 00:00:12 2018