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#openttd IRC Logs for 2018-09-26

---Logopened Wed Sep 26 00:00:06 2018
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---Logclosed Wed Sep 26 02:25:38 2018
---Logopened Wed Sep 26 02:25:43 2018
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05:14<crem4>Did TTD take a sawmill sound from beginning of Billy Joel's "Allentown" song?
05:18<@peter1138>Stock audio, probably.
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05:35<LordAro>i hear AoE2's horse sound so often
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05:53<Samu>why does fibonacci heap and binary heap produce different results?
05:53<Samu>is that supposed to happen?
05:54<Samu> here
05:55<Samu>take a look at the 2 images and the roads built on both, they're different
06:07<Samu>just tried priority queue, it's utterly slow
06:07<Samu>produced the same result as fibonacci
06:07<Samu>does that mean it's binary heap that's bugged?
06:07<Samu>or it's not a bug at all?
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10:23<Samu>are heaps supposed to give different results?
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10:48<Samu>@calc 0x7FFFFFFF
10:48<@DorpsGek>Samu: 2147483647
10:52<andythenorth>and very
10:53<Samu>andythenorth: do u understand fibonacci heap and binary heap used in aystar?
10:54<Samu>priority queue
10:57<LordAro>Samu: asking anyone who says anything is bordering on harrassment
10:57<LordAro>go ask google
10:58<Samu>google doesn't help here
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10:59<Samu>it's very specific to my observed results
11:00<Samu>aren't priority queues supposed to deliver the same results?
11:02<andythenorth>I am quitting the channel for a bit
11:02<andythenorth>getting asked random questions about stuff
11:03<andythenorth>is pointless
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11:03<Eddi|zuHause>that's why i have an ignore list
11:04<Eddi|zuHause>with about 2 entries on it
11:04<Samu>don't have where else to ask abouth this kind of things
11:04<nielsm>find a professor of computer science, or research things yourself
11:07<LordAro>Samu: first step would be working out what a heap is
11:07<LordAro>then go from there
11:07<LordAro>wikipedia's pretty good at this sort of stuff
11:07<nielsm>asking why two variants of a complex algorithm produce different results is a really difficult question and will likely require hours of research
11:08<nielsm>that is, for someone already well acquianted with the concepts involved
11:08<nielsm>for someone who hasn't learned about the algorithms and data structures it's built upon it'll take days or weeks to get up to speed
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11:31<Samu>i think im gonna investigate this on my own
11:31<Samu>google doesn't help
11:31<Samu>in reading valgrinds and stack and heaps, nothing to do with what I'm looking for
11:31<Samu>I give up
11:34<Samu>i used Queue.PriorityQueue-2 and produced the same result as Queue.FibonacciHeap-3
11:34<Samu>albeit extremely slow
11:34<Samu>only Queue.BinaryHeap-1 is different
11:35<Samu>but that's what Graph.AyStar-6 is using, I must understand why
11:35<FLHerne>Samu: The problem is that most of what you write here is just meaningless to anyone else without telepathy
11:36<FLHerne>The sort of implementation-detail questions you're asking only really make sense in the context of how you're thinking about a specific bit of code
11:36<FLHerne>But no-one else can know what you're looking at, nor what you're thinking about it
11:37<Samu>it's about these images
11:37<FLHerne>I mean, yes I know about different kinds of heap, and yes I know about A*
11:37<crem4>If it's a heap with standard opeartions, and there are no equal elements, any heap implementation will have the same results.
11:37<crem4>If there are equal elements, they can be returned from heap in arbitrary order.
11:37<FLHerne>But understanding why /you/ care about using different kinds of heap, in A*, right now, and what your problems with that are would take a whole conversation that I don't have time for
11:38<FLHerne>^ditto for the images
11:39<FLHerne>I can see you have images with slightly-different debug output
11:39<Samu>the routes are different in themselves
11:39<Samu>and the only thing I changed was the queue
11:39<Samu>look at the roads
11:39<FLHerne>I don't know what produces that output, nor what it means, nor why it (presumably) concerns you
11:40<FLHerne>Then if they have different costs, your code is wrong somehow :P
11:41<Samu>nop, the costs are the same, only difference was queue class
11:41<Samu>towns didn't grow, didn't build roads, i have that disabled
11:41<FLHerne>Either the heap sorting itself, or you have some error in how you take items from the queue
11:42<FLHerne>It /says right in your images/ that the route costs were different
11:42<Samu>that's not the pathfinder cost
11:42<Samu>that is the £
11:42<FLHerne>Ok, so back to "you don't provide enough context for anyone to provide meaningful input"
11:43<FLHerne>I said that, and tried to ignore it anyway, and it didn't work :P
11:43<Samu>ok, gonna try get the pathfinder costs displayed
11:43<FLHerne>It won't help
11:44<FLHerne>Trying to get input on that sort of debugging over a text channel /is just a waste of people's time/
11:44<FLHerne>You need to share more state with the other person than anyone can reasonably type
11:44<FLHerne>(and end up spamming the channel, like you have been for weeks)
11:45<FLHerne>General design decisions, choice of algorithm, maybe
11:46<FLHerne>But "my code doesn't work, why?!" isn't something it's worth discussing except with someone else looking at the same code and ideally in the same room
11:51<Eddi|zuHause>weeks? my ignore list entry is from years ago... nothing improved...
11:53<Samu>[16:37] <crem4> If there are equal elements, they can be returned from heap in arbitrary order.
11:53<Samu>should be something like this that's happening, have to investigate
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11:56<FLHerne>Samu: If the final pathfinder costs /are/ identical, there's no problem
11:57<FLHerne>A* is guaranteed to return /an/ optimal path; if there's more than one of those it can return any of them based on anything
11:58<FLHerne>(which is why the ship pathfinder is so slow, the big equal-cost areas of water give it far too many options)
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12:03<Samu>Queue.PriorityQueue-2: ticks: 28016, pathfinder cost: 9120
12:04<Samu>Queue.FibonacciHeap-3: ticks: 524, pathfinder cost: 9120
12:04<@Alberth>if equal, prefer smallest estimate (ie generally closer to the end-point)
12:05<Samu>Queue.BinaryHeap-1-1: ticks: 544, pathfinder cost: 9120
12:12<FLHerne>Ok, so there's no problem
12:12<FLHerne>All the routes are equally valid
12:13<Samu>min_cost = min(_AIMap.DistanceManhattan(cur_tile, tile) * self._cost_tile, min_cost);
12:13<Samu>the estimator
12:13<Samu> foreach (tile in goal_tiles) {
12:14<Samu>there's only 1 goal tile
12:14<@Alberth>ah, fair enough, that's the 'min' about
12:17<Samu>gonna plant signs, i wanna see how different they behave
12:20<nielsm>I'm quite sure you're into entirely acememic exercise territory now. if your goal is to understand the algorithms, go ahead, but if your goal is optimization you're better off just picking one based on measurements and try to find other ways to fast-eliminate potential route segments
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12:20<nielsm>(i.e. experiment with heuristics)
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12:53<Samu> - the signs
12:53<Samu>that kinda explains it
12:53<Samu>those are the open neighbours
12:54<Samu>Fibonacci opened less
12:56<Samu>seems that fibonacci is better for my purposes :p
12:57<Samu>out of curiosity, will check Queue.PriorityQueue-2
12:57<Samu>how this one builds them signs
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13:01<@Alberth>you tried it in the other direction as well?
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13:12<Samu>heh, it took so long that industries closed, it affected outcome
13:12<Samu>but it seems to match fibonacci
13:12<Samu>except that part closer to the industry that went missing
13:13<Samu>sec, uploading
13:14<Samu>steel mill gave place to a forest
13:14<Wolf01>Does somebody remember a game like SEGA Golden Axe but with a warrior, a ranger and a wizard? I played it on a coin-op like 25 years ago and I forgot the name, every time I see Golden Axe on my library I remember that one
13:15<@peter1138>I remember Golden Axe.
13:15<Samu>i played it on pc
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13:21<Samu>in sum, what I learned, binary heap ordering of equal elements is different than the other two, and while it's not wrong, it's still as mismatch :(
13:22<Samu>oh well
13:23<Samu>is it *ahem* easy to fix?
13:23<Samu>sorry for asking
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13:27<@Alberth>give less room, consider tiles closer to the target (lower estimate) better if the total cost is the same
13:30<nielsm>for building roads, I think giving penalty to turns, slopes, and directions away from the final destination, would be a start
13:30<nielsm>but I don't know what you have now
13:30<Samu>i could copy paste my code
13:30<Samu>if interested :o
13:31<nielsm>also perhaps outright rejecting tiles outside a rectangle bounded by the source and destination plus some border space
13:31<nielsm>and if finding a valid route with that bounding box fails, increase the allowed border space and try again
13:32<nielsm>source and destination being the full route endpoints, not any partial route
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13:41<Samu>hmm the rectangle idea
13:43<Samu>it's something to do with the estimator, right
13:43<nielsm>the neighbors function I think
13:43<Samu>make the estimator return some incredibly high cost if going outside that rectangle
13:43<nielsm>that's also a possibility
13:44<nielsm>adding to the cost the further away from the ideal bounding box you go
13:45<Samu>:) gonna mess with it
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13:49<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: so I should reject this?
13:56<Samu>oops, forget distancesquare
14:00<andythenorth>hello planetmaker :D
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14:24<Wolf01><Wolf01> Does somebody remember a game like SEGA Golden Axe but with a warrior, a ranger and a wizard? I played it on a coin-op like 25 years ago and I forgot the name, every time I see Golden Axe on my library I remember that one <- ha! should be "the king of dragons"
14:24<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: it's a valid feature request, but it's probably more involved than you think
14:25<andythenorth>my friend had a game with a warrior a ranger and a wizard
14:25<andythenorth>on the amiga
14:25<andythenorth>or maybe that was goldenaxe
14:25<Wolf01>Is the one with the green and orange dragon
14:27<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: the version I want is probably invalid
14:27<andythenorth>all handled in newgrf, I abuse it for livery tricks
14:28<andythenorth>won't work due to recursion failure?
14:28<Wolf01>And now, for the nostalgia time, I should find out the sega game I played with my cousin, of which I recreated the gun with lego :P
14:28<Eddi|zuHause>it'll work, but only on otherwise symmetric vehicles.
14:28<andythenorth>I think that's close enough to "won't work"
14:32<Eddi|zuHause>ok, well, it's a "bad" feature request in the sense that you're not requesting what you want, but a have a too specific implementation of what you want in mind which doesn't fit with the reality of the game
14:33<andythenorth>I wonder what shift-click does in depot
14:34<Eddi|zuHause>likely the same thing as everywhere else, estimate the cost of whatever a normal click would do (usually 0 won't show up)
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14:43<andythenorth>do we support alt-click? :P
14:43<andythenorth>all the ideas I've seen for liveries involve pissing around with dropdown menus
14:43<andythenorth>which is terribly indirect
14:44<Eddi|zuHause>alt+click is usually special on linuxoid windowing systems, and doesn't arrive at the program level
14:44<andythenorth>ctrl-click is really direct
14:46<Eddi|zuHause>you could add more options for the "can this vehicle flip" callback to determine what action is actually done on ctrl+click
14:46<Eddi|zuHause>(nothing, flip, cycle livery group, ...?)
14:47<andythenorth>that is an appealing proposal
14:47<andythenorth>I would just modify it to delete 'flip'
14:47<andythenorth>newgrf author has to handle flipping explicitly anyway
14:47<andythenorth>the alleged support doesn't work for non 8/8 vehicles
14:52<andythenorth>nielsm: fancy patching flip? :)
14:53<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: that is exactly the point of the callback. the builtin flipping doesn't work for non-8/8 so the callback is there to tell the game "hey, it's safe to flip this non-8/8 because i implemented it myself"
15:04<andythenorth>but why?
15:04<andythenorth>it has been removed in JGR PP
15:04<andythenorth>so why is it needed?
15:07<andythenorth>hmm the newgrf wiki does say that flipping isn't magic for shorter vehicles
15:08*andythenorth checks the nml docs
15:09<andythenorth>nml docs aren't as explicit
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15:33<Samu> what do you think?
15:34<Samu>the further is goes away from the distancemanhattan(source, goal), the higher the estimate cost
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15:34<Samu>that comment is false, don't read it
15:35<Samu>at lines 30, 31
15:48<@Alberth>of course
15:48<Eddi|zuHause>it's not "magic", you just need different sprite offsets, because the offsets are relative to the start of the bounding box, not the center
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15:59<andythenorth>well it could be made magic
16:00<andythenorth>I implemented my own last year so potato / potato
16:00<@Alberth>why do you have both multiple sources and multiple goals, samu? seems a bit too much, doesn't it?
16:05<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: so what does the spec look like for ctrl-click has multiple interpretations?
16:06<Samu>because it's what graph.Aystar reads
16:06<Samu>i haven't really touched graph.aystar code, except for the priority queue class
16:07<Samu>and placing signs
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16:18<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: needs more looking up what the actual spec is currently before i can answer that
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16:51<sushibear>Hello guys! Is OpenTTD being developed in C or C++?
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16:53<LordAro>though it was originally C, so there's still quite a lot of C-isms in the codebase
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17:03<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: it might be just another flag :P
17:03<andythenorth>but that seems slightly wrong
17:04<andythenorth>I suspect there's no clean way to change the semantics of bit 3
17:04<andythenorth>and bit 3 can't be removed
17:04<andythenorth>and adding 'just another bit' for livery counting conflicts with bit 3
17:16<andythenorth>can't have 2 separate bits for the behaviour
17:16<andythenorth>needs a bitmask eh? :P
17:17<andythenorth>how about changing semantics of bit 3 to 'ctrl-click can be used in depot'
17:17<andythenorth>and adding a new bit for what var ctrl-click changes: 0 = flip, 1 = counter
17:17<andythenorth>backwards compatible :P
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17:24<@planetmaker>sushibear, and there's places in the codebase where C probably will loom long (or forever). And there's some objective-C in the OSX support.
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17:38<andythenorth>oof bed
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17:56<sushibear>Mah dudes, what is FHC?
17:58<sushibear>"FHC server" i guess... I found the term here:
17:59<sushibear>Oh xD
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20:07<Samu>i stripped down aystar to suit my needs :p what used to take 560 ticks is now down to 484
20:08<Samu>@calc 560/484
20:08<@DorpsGek>Samu: 1.15702479339
20:08<Samu>@calc 484/560
20:08<@DorpsGek>Samu: 0.864285714286
20:08<Samu>real nice
20:08<Samu>i'm off to bed, cyas
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---Logclosed Thu Sep 27 00:00:07 2018