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#openttd IRC Logs for 2018-11-01

---Logopened Thu Nov 01 00:00:50 2018
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02:58-!-nielsm is "Niels Martin Hansen" on #openttd #tycoon
03:58<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #6925: Fix #6574 #6636 #5405 #6493: Aircraft hangar issues https://git.io/fxN2W
04:09<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #6926: Change: Allow dock to be constructed in more locations https://git.io/fxN2A
04:14<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #6927: Change: Forbid dock placement on docking area https://git.io/fxNac
04:20<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #6931: Change: Prevent town growth from blocking ships https://git.io/fxNa2
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04:22-!-chomwitt is "chomwitt" on #oolite #openttd #qemu #debian #debian-games
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06:22-!-Progman is "Peter Henschel" on #openttdcoop.dev #openttdcoop #openttd
06:45<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh opened pull request #6956: Fix #6145: Prevent ships without valid orders from moving https://git.io/fxNMB
06:49<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #6846: Feature: Allow flip of train vehicles in depot independently of NewGRF property https://git.io/fxNMM
06:50<nielsm>can we close that PR if the author doesn't respond within a week or so?
06:51<@planetmaker>a week is probably too short. But a month seems reasonable to me
06:51<@planetmaker>good morning also
07:05<LordAro>o/
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07:06<@planetmaker>\o
07:06<Wolf01>o/
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07:12-!-matt21347 is "matt" on #openttd #debian-next #debian-welcome #debian
07:59<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #6923: Fix #6460: [AI] Add start_date parameter for Random AIs on new game https://git.io/fxNQu
08:01<nielsm>okay I think I'm done shooting down samu PRs for today :P
08:01<@planetmaker>he
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08:03-!-snail_UES_ is "Jacopo Coletto" on #openttd
08:06<nielsm>(but really, I try reading and understanding them, purpose and method)
08:13<LordAro>hehe
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09:24<Wolf01>Oh... it's not saturday, I was wondering why there wasn't a FFF this week
09:29<frosch123>catholic people :p
09:30<Wolf01>I took 2 days to rest, nothing to do with catholicism :P My coworkers are working
09:33<@planetmaker>what's an FFF?
09:33<Wolf01>Factorio friday fact
09:33<@planetmaker>oh :)
09:33<frosch123>huh? how long have you been in this channel?
09:33<@planetmaker>hm, 10 years? :D
09:34<@planetmaker>but yes, I don't own Factorio (yet)
09:34<@planetmaker>waiting for a good deal somewhere on gog or steam :P
09:34<frosch123>i bought the 10€ version, since 5€ appeared too little
09:34<frosch123>but i guess you are too late for that :p
09:35<Wolf01>Yeah, and I don't think it will be officially discounted
09:35<frosch123>otoh, i got a t-shirt from V, so i made profit
09:36<frosch123>oh, right, kovarex said that he very much opposes sales
09:36<Wolf01>Ha! I want to buy one tee, but that "we plan to add more gear to the shop" is forcing me to wait
09:37<Wolf01>I would like an inserter+belt statuette :P
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10:43<@peter1138>Urgh, that's that time when that single sale day, Black Friday, starts for the month...
10:43<@peter1138>(The one that was only in the US a couple of years ago)
11:27<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick commented on pull request #6931: Change: Prevent town growth from blocking ships https://git.io/fxAmP
11:31<LordAro>planetmaker: https://www.factorio.com/faq factorio doesn't do sales
11:42<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick commented on pull request #6935: Add: EnsureNoShipFromDiagDirs https://git.io/fxA3q
11:59<@peter1138>It's like £21 now, so no, I'm not going to buy it.
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12:01-!-nielsm is "Niels Martin Hansen" on #openttd #tycoon
12:02<@peter1138>Might've bought it for 5 or 10 but never knew about it then.
12:05<Wolf01>I think 20€ is the right price for a 1.0 release, at this point 10-15€ is fine, but 26€ is too much
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12:19<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick commented on pull request #6927: Change: Forbid dock placement on docking area https://git.io/fxAcT
12:20<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #6928: Fix #5713: Use pathfinder to find closest ship depot https://git.io/fxAcl
12:25<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick commented on pull request #6923: Fix #6460: [AI] Add start_date parameter for Random AIs on new game https://git.io/fxAcx
12:29<nielsm>oh yeah, have anyone else noticed "dbg: [misc] String too long for destination buffer" printeds to the console a bunch when starting the game? it appears it's copying the revision name into a gamelog buffer that runs out of space
12:30<nielsm>I'm not sure how much trouble that will cause
12:31<nielsm>but the buffer is 15 bytes and the revision name uses 9 bytes just for date + dash, and then also wants 9 more bytes at least for git hash, and also a branch name between date and revision hash if not on master
12:31<nielsm>so it can definitely cause non-identical versions to show as identical in the gamelog, as far as I understand
12:33<@peter1138>Another cause is music packs, there's a fixed length buffer in there for some reason which causes massive spammage if you download a few music packs from bananas.
12:34<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick commented on pull request #6925: Fix #6574 #6636 #5405 #6493: Aircraft hangar issues https://git.io/fxACx
12:34<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh approved pull request #6923: Fix #6460: [AI] Add start_date parameter for Random AIs on new game https://git.io/fxACh
12:47<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick commented on pull request #6925: Fix #6574 #6636 #5405 #6493: Aircraft hangar issues https://git.io/fxAlz
12:56<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh merged pull request #6923: Fix #6460: [AI] Add start_date parameter for Random AIs on new game https://git.io/fxA8l
12:56<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh closed issue #6460: Can't access Random AI Parameters in a game https://git.io/fxA84
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12:57<nielsm>there's way too many individual changes in that aircraft hangar PR, I think it'd be easier to handle if split up
12:57<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/DorpsGek-github] pyup-bot opened pull request #19: Scheduled monthly dependency update for November https://git.io/fxA8g
12:57<nielsm>ROBOTS TAKING INITIATIVE
12:57<nielsm>END OF THE WORLD
12:58<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/DorpsGek-irc] pyup-bot opened pull request #15: Scheduled monthly dependency update for November https://git.io/fxA86
12:59<@peter1138>Hmm
12:59<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/DorpsGek-runner] pyup-bot opened pull request #10: Scheduled monthly dependency update for November https://git.io/fxA8y
13:06<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh merged pull request #6904: Add: AI/GS GetMonthlyMaintenanceCost https://git.io/fxA4r
13:06<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh closed issue #6611: Fluidsynth music driver https://git.io/fxA4P
13:06<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh merged pull request #6901: Add: Fluidsynth music driver support (jmak) https://git.io/fxA4X
13:10<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh closed issue #6891: Question Building the project on Windows https://git.io/fxABe
13:11<LordAro>loud noises continue
13:12<LordAro>i wonder whether we can differentiate between commebts & reviews
13:12<LordAro>"comments", on the whole, don't need to be echoed here, i'd suggest
13:17<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on issue #6566: Very long loading of the maximum "zoom out" level in 4K resolution https://git.io/fxABN
13:17<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh closed issue #6566: Very long loading of the maximum "zoom out" level in 4K resolution https://git.io/fxABA
13:30<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on issue #6498: Money bug in Detailed performance rating window https://git.io/fxA04
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13:33<frosch123>i see no big difference between comments and reviews
13:33<frosch123>unless you mean comments on issues vs. comments on prs
13:35<LordAro>mostly the latter, yeah
13:35<LordAro>you get one review notification, and a comment notification for each response to every bit of the review
13:48<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh opened pull request #6957: Fix #6498: Use int64 for all company rating calculations https://git.io/fxAuK
14:14<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on issue #6322: AI can allocate more memory than the system has, crashing the game https://git.io/fxA20
14:45<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick commented on pull request #6925: Fix #6574 #6636 #5405 #6493: Aircraft hangar issues https://git.io/fxAre
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14:46-!-andythenorth is "andythenorth" on #openttd
14:47<andythenorth>o/
14:51<andythenorth>it's like PR christmas out there
14:57<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh opened pull request #6958: Fix #6864: Normalise colour use in Frame rate window https://git.io/fxAoP
15:04<LordAro>nielsm: stop being so productive
15:05<andythenorth>gotta tidy all samu's patches eh :)
15:05<nielsm>lol
15:05<nielsm>I've taken this week off work
15:05<nielsm>gotta do something!
15:12<andythenorth>:)
15:12<nielsm>now, time to break squirrel completely
15:19<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick commented on pull request #6925: Fix #6574 #6636 #5405 #6493: Aircraft hangar issues https://git.io/fxAiL
15:32<+michi_cc>andythenorth: You're slacking ;) No love from you for my OSX PR :)
15:32<andythenorth>I can't build reliably currently
15:32<andythenorth>I am stuck on LordAro's branch
15:32<andythenorth>with patches
15:32<andythenorth>merging multiple forks is odd
15:33<andythenorth>unreliable results :)
15:33<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc commented on pull request #6949: Eliminate ICU for OSX https://git.io/fxAP4
15:34<nielsm>alternative hack for building: write a small wrapper shell script for clang that responds more favorably to --version
15:34<nielsm>and tell configure to use that as CC
15:39<andythenorth>could we just fix configure?
15:42<andythenorth>:P
15:42<nielsm>configure is PERFECT IN ITS CREATION
15:49<andythenorth>Apple is not
15:53<TrueBrain>I am just shocked OpenTTD still uses config.lib, which I wrote 10 years ago :P
15:53<TrueBrain>go replace it with something sane, like CMake, or something :D
15:57<frosch123>it works?
15:57<TrueBrain>it "works" :P
15:57<frosch123>do you want to use it to build on windows?
15:57<andythenorth>so
15:57<TrueBrain>that is right, CMake and Windows are friends these days
15:57<TrueBrain>which is pretty nice :)
15:57<andythenorth>if I set LordAro's fork as the upstream to a clone of Michi's fork?
15:57<andythenorth>I might get a build?
15:58<TrueBrain>just cherry-pick them into each other :P
15:58<TrueBrain>hmm, I even forgot that vspkg and CMake are friends
15:58<TrueBrain>meaning you could work towards dropping openttd-useful
15:58<andythenorth>I love providing feedback on branches when I'm testing them in my own personal patch pack :P
15:59<andythenorth>do we all have our own PP these days? o_O
15:59<TrueBrain>now that would be a nice project :)
15:59<andythenorth>TrueBrain: shall I advertise in the forums :P
15:59<andythenorth>'Project: replace config.lib with buzzwords'
15:59<andythenorth>:D
15:59<TrueBrain>CMake is not a buzzword, but sure :P
16:00<andythenorth>is 'bees' a buzzword? o_O
16:00<frosch123>"make openttd build on windows with cmake and vspkg"
16:00<TrueBrain>yes
16:00<frosch123>"without openttd-useful"
16:00<TrueBrain>that would seriously improve things
16:00<frosch123>i think someone asked for a more precise task
16:01<andythenorth>https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1214346#p1214346
16:02<frosch123>will people take that serious?
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16:02-!-glx is "Loïc GUILLOUX" on #opendune #openttd.noai #openttd.notice +#openttd
16:02<andythenorth>do we want serious people?
16:02<andythenorth>I can more serious it
16:02<frosch123>it's 9 lines which could be shortened into one
16:04<TrueBrain>I love how peopple took my personally trello for shit-to-do-for-OpenTTD as a task-list anyone could pick up :)
16:04<TrueBrain>somewhere some nuance got lost :P
16:04<TrueBrain>can we install Jira to order stuff better? :D
16:05<frosch123>if we install 10 issue trackers, will that order stuff even better? :)
16:05<TrueBrain>YES!
16:05<TrueBrain>at least
16:05<TrueBrain>I think?
16:05<TrueBrain>:D
16:05<andythenorth>we can track the issue trackers
16:05<andythenorth>I love how every issue tracker eventually links to a trello
16:05<andythenorth>it's like a modern fact
16:19<TrueBrain>I will see this weekend if I can convert what is on Trello into something more actionable in general
16:19<TrueBrain>or possibly I make an 'infrastructure' project on GitHub or something
16:20<TrueBrain>wish you could move issues between projects on GitHub
16:20<TrueBrain>haha
16:20<andythenorth>you can't?
16:20<TrueBrain>that is now a beta functionality :D
16:20<andythenorth>or you could API it :P
16:21<TrueBrain>hahahahaha
16:21<TrueBrain>that beta went live ... YESTERDAY :D
16:21<TrueBrain>haha :D
16:21<TrueBrain>that is funny :P
16:22<TrueBrain>okay, that is cool and useful
16:23<andythenorth>neat
16:23<andythenorth>now we can move all issues to JGR's GH page?
16:24<TrueBrain>hahaha
16:24<TrueBrain>I wonder what I should prioritize .. and that answer is more complex than I would like
16:24<TrueBrain>having nightlies is nice .. but having a stable infrastructure can very quickly escalate to a must-have :P
16:27<andythenorth>nightlies is not that big a deal right now
16:27<andythenorth>TrueBrain bus factor worries me most :P
16:28<nielsm>having more "regular people" testing everything would be useful though
16:28<andythenorth>it would yes, but
16:28<andythenorth>there is no but
16:28<TrueBrain>andythenorth: I keep hearing that .. just to be perfectly clear: there are more people who have the keys to the castle
16:28<andythenorth>phew :)
16:28<andythenorth>so what are the alternative candidates to nightlies?
16:29<TrueBrain>I dont understand the question :)
16:29<nielsm>I could set up that machine I have with a semi-fried HDMI output to run headless windows and build once in a while
16:29<nielsm>:)
16:30<TrueBrain>nielsm: we have the hardware, that is not the issue :)
16:30<nielsm>WELL SOMETHING NEEDS TO BE DONE!!!!!
16:30<nielsm>:P
16:30<andythenorth>TrueBrain: so what's complex about the prioritisation? o_O
16:30<andythenorth>or should I just play tanks? :P
16:30<nielsm>I mean as a hackjob
16:31<TrueBrain>andythenorth: I find it hard to balance .. finish CF, or make sure the infra is stable
16:31<TrueBrain>nielsm: if we like, I can cook up a hack solutions; just it doesn't scale :P
16:31<TrueBrain>no, let me rephrase that
16:31<TrueBrain>nielsm: I try to avoid people creating binaries that are published on openttd.org which run on "home computers"
16:32<TrueBrain>we have some .. terrible experience with that :P
16:32<TrueBrain>openttd.org has the infrastructure to run shit
16:32<TrueBrain>we just need the thing to run :)
16:32<nielsm>yeah, I know it's not great to run production-ish things on residential lines
16:32<TrueBrain>that, and a chain-of-trust, reproducability, etc
16:33<TrueBrain>what I can do, for example, is start up Bamboo again, and let him compile the stuff again
16:33<TrueBrain>only .. he runs compilers from 2015
16:33<TrueBrain>which are not C++11
16:33<TrueBrain>(which people had issues with, for some odd reason :P)
16:34<V453000>yo huminz
16:36<andythenorth>and V453000
16:36<TrueBrain>nielsm: another reason things are more difficult than they used to be: before GitHub, we could 'trust' the content of the repository to not have a bitcoin miner, for example
16:36<TrueBrain>as such, we just had a Jenkins Agent on a Windows VM, doing its thing
16:37<TrueBrain>with the GitHub move, I ...have .... a bit of issues just blindly running PRs :P
16:37<TrueBrain>that would require a lot more sysadmining, I am pretty sure :D
16:37<TrueBrain>so I would strongly prefer if we could containerize stuff
16:37<V453000>what news? :)
16:37<TrueBrain>(as we can just kill Dockers that run for more than N minutes :P)
16:37<nielsm>ah right, I was thinking just starting out with master builds
16:37<nielsm>presumably nobody merges random shit without understanding it :)
16:38<TrueBrain>wellllllllllllll
16:38<TrueBrain>we don't enforce 2FA yet
16:38<TrueBrain>which we should, if we do that
16:38<TrueBrain>plenty of GitHub repositories have been owned the last few months :)
16:39<TrueBrain>maybe we should do that anyway :P
16:39<nielsm>and later, builds of PRs should probably only happen after approval from someone
16:39<andythenorth>I would like to not get owned by OpenTTD
16:39<nielsm>builds that get binaries published, that is
16:39<TrueBrain>last week I got the chance to talk to a few people who run bigger farms than OpenTTD
16:39<andythenorth>it would be preferable to not have to buy a separate mac to run it on
16:39<TrueBrain>asking them how they mitigate the risks
16:39<TrueBrain>is ... interesting ... :P
16:40<TrueBrain>(basically, they have things to prevent abuse, but in the end, it requires their attention to keep it clean)
16:40<TrueBrain>but yeah, having the CI trigger only after some whitelisted person asks for it is possible
16:40<TrueBrain>I was more thinking to use that to publish the binaries
16:41<TrueBrain>as we can fence off that the CI either is killed after N time, or behaves
16:41<TrueBrain>but I am more worries about the binaries we publish for others to download
16:41<andythenorth>me too
16:41<TrueBrain>we have to be reasonably sure they are not infected in some matter
16:41<TrueBrain>on the forums, it is nice people post their binaries
16:41<TrueBrain>but .. I would never download any of them :P
16:41<andythenorth>what extra risk is there in GH compared to owning our own repo?
16:41<TrueBrain>(well, only to check for malware, from time to time :P)
16:42<TrueBrain>andythenorth: fully whitelisted
16:42<andythenorth>compromised user creds is same risk both places?
16:42<TrueBrain>SVN didn't have pull requests
16:42<TrueBrain>yes; but it was non-trivial to login
16:42<TrueBrain>(svn+ssh over an URL not published)
16:42<andythenorth>so you'd have to craft a specific attack?
16:42<TrueBrain>GitHub is widely known ... so a much easier vector :)
16:42<TrueBrain>yes
16:43<andythenorth>GH is commodity attack
16:43<TrueBrain>people who do these things (and can harvest credentials) don't do targeted attacks :P
16:43<andythenorth>shall we just move to client-server architecture / MMORG :P
16:43<andythenorth>and distribute a signed client in app stores
16:43<andythenorth>that escalated quickly
16:44<TrueBrain>well, left or right, publishing binaries does require some level of confidence
16:44<TrueBrain>signing the binaries is not the worst idea
16:44<TrueBrain>sadly, not many good common ways to validate the signature
16:44<TrueBrain>(on Windows I am sure 99% of the people never ever validated a signature :P)
16:45-!-heffer [~felix@nexus.vfn-nrw.de] has joined #openttd
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16:47<TrueBrain>ah, here the CMake bla comes showing up again : currently for a Windows container, I have to rename files to match the expected name by the MSVC project file :D
16:47<TrueBrain>vspkg calls it libpng16.lib
16:47<TrueBrain>OpenTTD expected libpng.lib :D
16:48<TrueBrain>(and there are a few more)
16:48<nielsm>alternatively set up the msbuild project to accept overrides of the library names
16:48<nielsm>etc
16:48<TrueBrain>I know nothing about the MSVC project :D
16:49<nielsm>I do!
16:49<TrueBrain>so let me show you a few things .. I have to type the URLs, this will be fun:
16:49<TrueBrain>https://github.com/TrueBrain/OpenTTD-CF/blob/windows/base-windows/Dockerfile
16:49<nielsm>several years ago I did some pretty snazzy project setup for aegisub, with custom property pages and all :)
16:49<TrueBrain>that is the "common" part for Windows Container
16:50<TrueBrain>https://github.com/TrueBrain/OpenTTD-CF/blob/windows/release-windows-msvc/Dockerfile
16:50<TrueBrain>and there is the rest of it
16:50<TrueBrain>line 28 .. 73 are "fixes"
16:50<TrueBrain>just to conform to our build-system
16:51<TrueBrain>but I can summarize that different:
16:51<TrueBrain>"make MSVC work with packages from vspkg"
16:51<TrueBrain>(dropping openttd-useful)
16:51<TrueBrain>maybe even more actionable than changing to CMake :P
16:51<TrueBrain>(as you noticed in these Dockerfiles, no openttd-useful is installed)
16:51<nielsm>is vspkg part of the win10 sdk?
16:52<TrueBrain>vspkg is a Microsoft project on GitHub
16:52<TrueBrain>euh
16:52<TrueBrain>vcpkg
16:52<TrueBrain>fucking hell, typing is hard
16:52<TrueBrain>s/vspkg/vcpkg/
16:52<TrueBrain>s/vspkg/vcpkg/g
16:52<TrueBrain>! :D
16:52<TrueBrain>https://github.com/microsoft/vcpkg
16:52<TrueBrain>cannot believe I kept typing that wrong :P
16:53<TrueBrain>andythenorth: fix that in your post plz :D
16:53<TrueBrain>vspkg = vcpkg :D
16:53<TrueBrain>I think I can drop the whole ICU hack, and just not install it
16:53<andythenorth>fixed
16:54<TrueBrain>ty
16:55<TrueBrain>okay, slowly crawling to more actionable things to get the CF alive:
16:55<TrueBrain>1) remove openttd-useful (meaning we have up-to-date libraries ... which sounds like a good idea I guess :P)
16:56<TrueBrain>2) check if the VM on our server is Windows 10 Pro
16:56<TrueBrain>3) validate that my 'windows' branch of OpenTTD-CF still works; fix what is broken (see 1)
16:56<@orudge>I did intend recently to try to look at CMake for OpenTTD. As usual, time is the problem :(
16:56<TrueBrain>orudge: yup; I made a quick mockup months ago. It is pretty straight-forward
16:57<TrueBrain>https://github.com/TrueBrain/OpenTTD/tree/cmake , if you are interested
16:57<@orudge>CMake + vcpkg sounds like it would make things much easier for MSVC users
16:57<TrueBrain>it drastically improves starting with OpenTTD on Windows
16:57<TrueBrain>as it "just works"
16:57<TrueBrain>(instead of having to go through a wiki tutorial :P)
16:58<@orudge>Yeah
16:58<TrueBrain>either way, to continue my brain-dump
16:58<TrueBrain>4) find a controller to run release-* every night on the 'master'
16:59<TrueBrain>5) publish those results ... 'somehow', for people to download
16:59<TrueBrain>6) ???
16:59<TrueBrain>7) profit
16:59<TrueBrain>4) is most likely Jenkins; not the best, but will hav eto do
17:00<TrueBrain>5) is more tricky than I would like .. currently binaries are published in an internal VM, to be moved to another internal VM, to be mirrored
17:00<TrueBrain>2) is an easy check ... let me login
17:01<TrueBrain>haha, not enough memory available
17:04<TrueBrain>yup, it is Windows 10 Pro; good, means we can run Hyper-V on it
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17:05<Wolf01>Internet disservice provider
17:05<Wolf01>Oh, a wild TrueBrain: since you seem good with docker, I would like to know what it could do for me, I want to publish a SAAS cloud infrastructure, every time I need to publish a new version I could do it once or for each container?
17:06<TrueBrain>use kubernetes :P
17:06<Wolf01>Does it work on windows server?
17:07<TrueBrain>Docker on Windows in production I havent seen yet
17:07<Wolf01>The SAAS is asp based
17:08<TrueBrain>either way, a container is just what is running an image (in docker terms)
17:08<TrueBrain>if you make a new image, you of course have to recreate the containers
17:08<TrueBrain>there are people who update the containers themself
17:08<TrueBrain>but .. that is a bit weird
17:08<TrueBrain>(why are you using docker in that case)
17:09<TrueBrain>left or right, the answer is not simple. But one piece of advise: don't use docker because it is hot
17:09<TrueBrain>use it because you have a need for it
17:09<Wolf01>It was one of the ideas :P
17:09<TrueBrain>don't solve a non-existing problem by throwing a solution against it
17:10<TrueBrain>first wonder what you are trying to solve; after that look for solutions that supply that :)
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17:10<TrueBrain>(this currently really happens a lot .. people using Docker because "it is hot" .. some for cloud ..)
17:11<andythenorth>Wolf01: where are your instances deployed?
17:11<andythenorth>VMs on a cloud provider?
17:11<Wolf01>We have a server on a datacenter
17:11<andythenorth>and do you deploy multiple instances of the same app?
17:11<TrueBrain>I hope it is in it, but that is just me :D
17:12<TrueBrain>nielsm: I hope you understand a tiny bit more that for me at least it is non-trivial to have a working nightly compile farm :D
17:12<Wolf01>Currently it is just one app with multiple databases, but the users are growing and the machine doesn't seem to keep up
17:13<andythenorth>we run single-tenant apps, in single tenant VMs
17:13<TrueBrain>nielsm: but if you know MSVC projects a bit, if you could look into removing openttd-useful, that would really really help me
17:13<andythenorth>a long time ago we ran multi-tenant apps on shared hosting with other customers
17:13<andythenorth>over time we've moved through multiple solutions
17:13<Wolf01>That was my idea too, but our problem is to minimise the weekly update time and work
17:14<andythenorth>single-tenant app, single-tenant VM on private cloud offers the best infosec for us
17:14<andythenorth>but it also has some scaling issues
17:14<nielsm>TrueBrain: let's start by removing the project files for VC older than 2015 :)
17:14<TrueBrain>sounds like a plan :D
17:15<andythenorth>Wolf01 our app instances are deployed from git tags, we have a utility that polls for new tags and runs the update process if one is found
17:15<andythenorth>this scales well to N
17:15<andythenorth>it could also be done with Ansible or a similar orchestration tool
17:16<andythenorth>we use orchestration to manage the VMs
17:16<andythenorth>we look at docker sometimes because 'everyone else uses it' but we miss what we would gain
17:16<andythenorth>it just seems to add complexity and attack surface in our case
17:17<TrueBrain>using only docker for production at this day and age is silly
17:17<TrueBrain>you need at least a wrapper around it to help you out :)
17:17<andythenorth>Wolf01 in our model we pay relatively high ££ for VMs, for workload that could just be run on one huge box
17:17<TrueBrain>(kubernetes is flavor-of-the-month)
17:18<andythenorth>but generally outages are limited to fewer customers at once, unless the hosting provider loses a whole rack
17:18<andythenorth>TrueBrain: I kind of prefer steam age technology for some reason :P
17:19<TrueBrain>I am pleasently surprised you use an orchestration tool for VMs :)
17:19<TrueBrain>that too, I see not often enough
17:19<TrueBrain>with hilarious results :D
17:19<andythenorth>cattle not pets, no?
17:19<andythenorth>we have half a plan to just image them and redeploy images
17:20<andythenorth>but on OpenStack it seems to occasionally mean things that should be quick are very very slow
17:21<TrueBrain>still have to try out things like OpenStack
17:21<TrueBrain>I only know about it, never used it
17:22<TrueBrain>same for openvswitch, also from what I understand very useful in cloud-like setups
17:22<andythenorth>we use it via the rackspace web UI :P
17:22<andythenorth>clicky buttons
17:22<TrueBrain>:D
17:23<andythenorth>one day I find an SRE
17:23<andythenorth>then all my problems are solved
17:23<andythenorth>forever
17:23<TrueBrain>hahahaha :D
17:23<TrueBrain>keep dreaming my friend :D
17:24<andythenorth>do I just have 2 problems?
17:24<TrueBrain>yup
17:24<andythenorth>I have infra
17:24<TrueBrain>I need infra
17:24<TrueBrain>tradE?
17:24<andythenorth>and I have to manage an SRE :P
17:24<andythenorth>problems doubled
17:24<andythenorth>I had an idea that cloud would free us from servers
17:24<andythenorth>oops
17:30<yellyFish>you are telling me that data is not stored in the sky?
17:30<@planetmaker>ho
17:30<TrueBrain>hmm .. I also should really setup a staging area for DorpsGek_II .. I cannot test the PyUp change :D
17:30<@planetmaker>I'm telling you there are data in the sky :P
17:30<TrueBrain>and crashing down on us!
17:30<TrueBrain>OWH NO, WE ARE BOMBARDED !
17:31<yellyFish>actually, china's satellite...
17:31<TrueBrain>right, that is my cue to leave :P
17:31<TrueBrain>night all
17:34<andythenorth>bye TB
17:37<nielsm>uh this is weird
17:37<Wolf01>Bye
17:37<nielsm>the bash 'generate' script adds fluidsynth to the windows project files
17:38<nielsm>the vbs one does not
17:38<nielsm>neither of them should defined FLUIDSYNTH
17:40<nielsm>oh, the bash script does it backwards
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17:45<nielsm>and apparently the pre-commit check script does not handle deleted files
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17:52<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh opened pull request #6959: Fix: Fluidsynth should not be added to VC project files https://git.io/fxANi
17:53<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh opened pull request #6960: Remove: Visual Studio project files for earlier than 2015 https://git.io/fxANX
17:54<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 approved pull request #6959: Fix: Fluidsynth should not be added to VC project files https://git.io/fxANQ
17:56<nielsm>sometimes I wonder if it would be worth adding a check to the CI so it doesn't attempt to build for a platform when nothing affecting that platform has changed
17:57<+glx>will be fixed with the windows compile farm ;)
17:57<+glx>at least the build won't be useless
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17:58<nielsm>and maybe can run some more of the builds in parallel? :/
17:59<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 approved pull request #6960: Remove: Visual Studio project files for earlier than 2015 https://git.io/fxAAn
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18:20<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc merged pull request #6959: Fix: Fluidsynth should not be added to VC project files https://git.io/fxANi
18:21<nielsm>as expected, CI fails on the other
18:21<nielsm>it doesn't handle deleted files
18:21<nielsm>rejects /dev/null for having no terminating newline
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18:32<+glx>of course
18:35<LordAro>ha
18:36<+glx>something to fix in https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD-git-hooks/blob/c625d1df2aa59f8050f485d671889f31b8916e28/hooks/check-diff.py
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18:36<LordAro>TrueBrain: orudge: my branch is progressed slightly further
18:36<LordAro>https://github.com/LordAro/OpenTTD/tree/cmake
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19:35<nielsm>https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD-git-hooks/pull/7
19:35<nielsm>there's a hacky fix for the commit hook
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---Logclosed Fri Nov 02 00:00:51 2018