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#openttd IRC Logs for 2018-11-03

---Logopened Sat Nov 03 00:00:53 2018
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05:18<TrueBrain>hi andythenorth
05:18<andythenorth>yo TB
05:19<nielsm>woo new speed record on danish railways!
05:28<TrueBrain>time to try out Digital Ocean .. see what their services is about :)
05:37<andythenorth>we use them for something
05:37<andythenorth>commodity cloud hosts probly
05:39<TrueBrain>they seem to be not as expensive as other cloud operators; still, these things are expensive (in contrast to a dedicated machine); but I guess that makes sense
05:39<andythenorth>we mostly use Rackspace cloud
05:40<andythenorth>but Rackspace are now so disinterested in commodity cloud, it's a joke
05:40<andythenorth>their support responses are basically "oh the host for your VMs went away? GTFO"
05:40<andythenorth>"Would you like to pay us to talk to you about managed cloud?"
05:41<andythenorth>err no, we already pay 5% of our total turnover just to provide VMs thatnks
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06:12<nielsm>hm, have anyone made a "tile hacker" debug tool patch before? basically picking any tile and changing the raw map array data for it
06:12<andythenorth>not me :)
06:13<LordAro>peter1138 probably has a patch for it
06:14<TrueBrain>nielsm: I can honestly say I have never seen that request even come by :)
06:14<andythenorth>should I do variable running costs for trains?
06:14<andythenorth>heavier load = more cost
06:15<nielsm>running costs shooting up as the model gets older and finding spare parts becomes harder
06:15<nielsm>as a simulation of fuel/energy costs of pulling a heavier load? as long as it's not excessive sounds good
06:16<andythenorth>I'll probably skip it tbh :)
06:16<andythenorth>Pikka has done it before and I don't know if he is convinced
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06:48<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on issue #6676: Helicopters can be stopped while descending
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07:20<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on issue #6676: Helicopters can be stopped while descending
07:53<nielsm>I assume any attempt at modifying the airport state machines will produce a massive extra job of writing savegame fixer-uppers
07:59<Wolf01>I still think the running costs should be based on number and colour of pixels
07:59<Wolf01>Even other stats should be based on that
07:59<Wolf01>andythenorth proposed red = more fast
08:01<nielsm>changing company colour scheme should absolutely also cost money then
08:01<nielsm>all the repainting is costly
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08:25<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh opened pull request #6962: Fix #6676: Prevent helicoptors from stopping in midair during landing
08:33<nielsm> <- I very much want to close this as "not a bug", since the installer is written to only do system-global installations (writes a bunch of things to HKLM regardless of what dir you install to)
08:33<nielsm>any opposition?
08:35<andythenorth>I have no knowledge :P
08:36<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh updated pull request #6962: Fix #6676: Prevent helicopters from stopping in midair during landing
08:36*nielsm fixes typo
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09:45*andythenorth has running cost headache
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10:54*andythenorth wonders about scaling run cost by power * max speed
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10:56<nielsm>it might work, but should probably also take technology and era into account
10:57<nielsm>a steam engine from 1890 and a diesel-electric from 1990 with identical stats on paper are probably going to have wildly different running costs
11:00<nielsm>maybe having a curve of "expected standard stats" over time (by engine introduction year) and scale costs by deviation from that
11:02<andythenorth>due to game balance, running costs increase over time
11:02<andythenorth>I suspect I'm rendering all progression irrelevant here
11:02<nielsm>how about purchase costs dropping somewhat from introduction to somewhere one-third the way to obsolesence?
11:02<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 requested changes for pull request #6867: 16 cargo types in and out for industries
11:03<nielsm>so purchasing the latest and greatest costs more than getting the mass produced model from last year
11:06<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #6867: 16 cargo types in and out for industries
11:12<nielsm>I hope my birds will let me do some coding right now, they occasionally get jealous of the keyboard getting all the scritches
11:14<TrueBrain>nothing a shotgun cannot fix
11:15<andythenorth>hp * speed doesn't scale how I want
11:16<andythenorth>sometimes I wonder about just setting run costs manually :P
11:16<andythenorth>instead of trying to devise an algorithm that comes out matching my subjective goals :P
11:17<frosch123>random() :)
11:20<frosch123>((hp * (eletric ? 0.5 : 1))^2 + speed^2) * (0.75 + 0.5*random)
11:21<nielsm>vector length of (power, speed)
11:23<nielsm>frosch123, DisableGrf() wants a StringID, are there any existing that might be usable? :(
11:24<frosch123>STR_NEWGRF_ERROR_INVALID_ID with a bit stretch :)
11:24<nielsm>also every other similar error condition in newindustries loading uses grfmsg
11:24<andythenorth>frosch123: somewhat :P
11:25<frosch123>nielsm: grfmsg means "ottd dev fault". disablegrf means "grf dev fault" :)
11:26<nielsm>plenty of pre-existing wrong uses then
11:27<frosch123>andythenorth: you can use "(intro_year + power*7) % 10" as random
11:29<frosch123>nielsm: yes, history. stuff shifted from "grfs are developed for ttdp, and ottd somehow tries to run them" to "grfs are developed for ottd, and ottd has to hell-a-lot catch up on grf error reporting"
11:29<frosch123>there was a time inbetween where a lot of grfs where wrong, and noone noticed since noone used ttdp and ottd just ignored errors
11:31<frosch123>andythenorth: "random" is the same as "too complex to see a pattern"
11:32<frosch123>if you find a pattern, add a more properties with other prime factors to the sum
11:32<nielsm>meh going to add this then
11:32<nielsm>STR_NEWGRF_ERROR_PROPERTY_OUT_OF_RANGE :Property value out of range in sprite {0:HEX}: Property={1:HEX}, value={2:NUM}, minimum={3:NUM}, maximum={4:NUM}
11:32<nielsm>ah sprite number should be decimal
12:09<nielsm>hmm looks slightly wrong:
12:14<frosch123>i think you cannot add arbitrary parameters
12:14<frosch123>only what is in GRFError
12:15<frosch123>SetDParam(4 + i, c->error->param_value[i]);
12:15<frosch123>integers are in param 4 and 5
12:16<frosch123>the first one is already the sprite number
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12:27<andythenorth>the principal problem with running costs is the scale
12:27<andythenorth>the high end is 10000hp and 200mph
12:27<andythenorth>but most trains are bunched at the low end
12:27<andythenorth>so their costs bunch
12:28<nielsm>that's part of why you probably need to make introduction year part of the calculation in some way
12:28<andythenorth>it already is :)
12:29<andythenorth>the run cost factor is a prop limited to 255
12:29<andythenorth>most of the trains have values at 100 or less :P
12:31<frosch123>add a sqrt() to stretch the bottom and compress the top
12:31<andythenorth>that's an interesting idea
12:32<andythenorth>I am considering resetting the base cost factor
12:32<frosch123>or ln() if sqrt() is not enough
12:32<andythenorth>it's default at the moment
12:32<nielsm>I tried making a costs rebalance mod for transport fever at a point, but never managed to make purchase and running cost formulas I was satisfied with
12:33<frosch123>is transport fever like ottd? as in: there is only one metric (money) and it behaves exponentially
12:34<nielsm>very much like
12:35<nielsm>(what keeps me from playing it is that the industry chains feel lifeless, everything is predictable and scale in boring ways, and then there's the poor performance of the game engine)
12:36<nielsm>(also the moddability is too static to allow for truly interesting things)
12:36<andythenorth>hmm 10000hp is a lot :P
12:36<Wolf01>The problem with TF is that it seem you only can multiply the base values, but it has a working daylenght mod :P
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12:39<nielsm>TF also has no real running infrastructure costs at all
12:39<nielsm>which means electrified rail is a total no-brainer
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12:43<Wolf01><nielsm> TF also has no real running infrastructure costs at all <- but all the construction costs are completely fucked up
12:43<Wolf01>Even a passenger coach costs 10 times the engine
12:43<nielsm>yeah that's one of the isses I had and why I tried making that rebalance mod
12:44<Wolf01>I don't know if that was the way they wanted to balance the economy
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12:45<Wolf01>Also vehicles scale up with capacity and speed but clearly it's not the right way, the specs are completely wrong, like a 4 passengers car which can carry 12 passengers
12:46<nielsm>all the capacities specified in their definitions are 4x the in-game value
12:46<nielsm>for some reason
12:47<nielsm>perhaps that their simulation would bog down too early if there were 4x the number of agents in play
12:47<nielsm>so they divide the capacities by 4 on loading the game data
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12:49<Wolf01>Meh, ISP is breaking balls...
12:49<Wolf01>BTW, that's why I would like to play it only to build things and decorate instead of caring about making profitable routes
12:51<nielsm>I quite like their track building tools and options yes
12:51<nielsm>could use some better tools to control height/depth and grades, but overall they're doing that part right
12:53<nielsm>(compared, cities:skylines is doing it wrong by using splines rather than circle arcs for curved roads/tracks)
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13:25<andythenorth>maybe I should try and repro the road vehicle depot-finding bug
13:25<andythenorth>then I could maybe play with breakdowns on
13:26<andythenorth>probably I'm the only player using RVs?
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13:29<frosch123>or the only player using automatic servicing
13:30<andythenorth>I switched to service-by-order, then I turned breakdowns off
13:31<andythenorth>endless "vehicle can't find route to depot" stuff
13:31<andythenorth>but I never repro-ed it reliably
13:31<andythenorth>that was probly 10 years ago :P
13:31<Wolf01>Wtf, learn to build roads properly :P
13:31<andythenorth>vehicle drives past depot
13:32<andythenorth>if I turn breakdowns on, I could actually care about reliability in Horse
13:32<nielsm>frosch123 has there ever been a suggestion to print (selected categories of) debug messages to the in-game console?
13:32<nielsm>so e.g. grf debug messages could be visible to more people
13:33<nielsm>it should probably be a command to enable it or such
13:33<frosch123>yes, someone suggested to redirect DEBUG to the console
13:33<frosch123>but DEBUG can be quite a lot
13:33<andythenorth>it's remarkable the places we build stuff
13:35<nielsm>dwarf fortress style "we just chiseled tracks into the ground rock"
13:38<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh updated pull request #6867: 16 cargo types in and out for industries
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13:55<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh updated pull request #6867: 16 cargo types in and out for industries
13:58<nielsm>frosch123: that should be everything :)
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14:09<frosch123> <- you aligned all but one :p
14:12<nielsm>I'll squash all the changes to the pretty commits a bit later
14:13<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 commented on pull request #6867: 16 cargo types in and out for industries
14:13<frosch123>found some obiwans
14:17<nielsm> <--- should move this to the newgrf additions commit for the cleanup too
14:19<nielsm>but moving a change from one commit to another is annoying :(
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14:38<frosch123>nielsm: GRFError does not work with string literals in "data"
14:39<frosch123>it does a free in ~GRFError
14:39<frosch123>so you need some stredup or so
14:39<nielsm>so strdup it >_>
14:39<frosch123>i think "strdup" is not allowed
14:39<nielsm>may as well format it too in that case, with more info
14:42<nielsm>okay no formatting, then I need to set up buffers and other annoying things
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14:50<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh updated pull request #6867: 16 cargo types in and out for industries
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15:00<frosch123>nielsm: no more comments from me
15:01<nielsm>cool, I'll make a squash later then
15:45<nielsm>gah clicked rebuild all instead of normal build
15:45<nielsm>not that it matters much when strings.h has changed :P
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16:01<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh updated pull request #6867: 16 cargo types in and out for industries
16:02<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh dismissed a review for pull request #6867: 16 cargo types in and out for industries
16:07<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc updated pull request #6949: Eliminate ICU for OSX
16:08<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc commented on pull request #6949: Eliminate ICU for OSX
16:10<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc commented on pull request #6949: Eliminate ICU for OSX
16:11<+michi_cc>LordAro: Better now? ^^ :)
16:24<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 approved pull request #6867: 16 cargo types in and out for industries
16:24<nielsm>andythenorth let's throw a party tomorrow
16:24<frosch123>nml next :)
16:25<nielsm>there's also the houses accepts patch
16:25<nielsm>but it should probably have a bit more error handling
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16:31<andythenorth>now I just need a reliable build :D
16:32<andythenorth>this stack of patches is a bit ugly :P
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16:43<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh merged pull request #6867: 16 cargo types in and out for industries
16:44<+glx>maybe I could force merge #6960
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16:54<andythenorth>not many left
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17:14<andythenorth>I could do with wagon running costs in different range to engines :P
17:16<andythenorth>I jacked up running cost base to get a good range for engines
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17:17<andythenorth>now I don't have enough fine grain control over wagons :P
17:18<andythenorth>hmm maybe I can cheart
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17:48<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh updated pull request #6872: Add: Houses can accept up to 16 different cargo types via NewGRF
18:06<andythenorth>this running cost thing so nearly works :(
18:06<andythenorth>but the top end is now too low :(
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18:46<andythenorth>I can't define arbitrary running cost bases?
18:47<andythenorth>so that I can scale them differently?
18:51<frosch123>runninc cost bases are for basecost-mods
18:51<frosch123>you have 15bit price multiplier range, should be enough
18:52<frosch123>which engine cost 32768 times more than a wagon?
18:53<frosch123>wait, running cost? why do wagons have running costs?
18:53<frosch123>but still, 32k is enough even for running cost
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18:59<frosch123>you are lucky, you missed my answer :)
19:03<andythenorth>I went past the microwave
19:03<andythenorth>which blocks the wifi :P
19:04<frosch123>probably aliens contacting you
19:04<andythenorth>or the faraday cage :P
19:05<andythenorth>wait, running cost factor is only 0-255 no?
19:06<frosch123>depends whther you put it into "properties" or "graphics" :p
19:06<frosch123>8bit property, 15bit callback
19:07<andythenorth>that would avoid some evil I'm doing
19:07<andythenorth>currently I'm abusing electric base cost
19:07<andythenorth>which is a bad idea
19:11<andythenorth>let's see
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19:21<nielsm>I tried making a new title screen game:
19:22<nielsm>well, it's missing ships
19:25<frosch123>at least there is a toy factory
19:38*LordAro has a soft spot for toyland
19:38<LordAro>i used to play mad dog's toyshop(?) in ttd a lot when i was much younger
19:39<nielsm>toyland is really hard mode, just because there's so few vehicle models and they're all worse than those in the normal climates
19:39<LordAro>yeah, i don't think i ever got further than the 4th train?
19:39<LordAro>(lost interest or otherwise)
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---Logclosed Sun Nov 04 00:00:54 2018