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#openttd IRC Logs for 2018-11-04

---Logopened Sun Nov 04 00:00:54 2018
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02:28<andythenorth>moin
02:39<andythenorth>can't have negative running costs?
02:52*andythenorth had an idea for caboose wagons that are more than just eye candy :P
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03:26-!-nielsm is "Niels Martin Hansen" on #openttd #tycoon
03:50<TrueBrain>negative running cost .. .you are weird :P
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04:11*andythenorth no bites
04:17<TrueBrain>how about bytes?
04:19<andythenorth>nibbles?
04:23<TrueBrain>that moment that GitHub introduced something new, you are signed up for the beta program, but not accepted yet, and it is exactly what you need/want ... are you going to spend time to duplicate the functionality, or do you wait ...
04:23<TrueBrain>such questions
04:28<andythenorth>how much you need it?
04:28*andythenorth would always wait :P
04:28<andythenorth>no shortage of fun other things to do
04:28<TrueBrain>it removes Jenkins from the whole bla
04:28<andythenorth>such Jenkins
04:28<TrueBrain>but no clue if waiting it 1 month, or 1 year :P
04:28<andythenorth>how I will miss him
04:45<TrueBrain>funny, SemVer2 defines everything behind the major.minor.patch as prerelease
04:45<TrueBrain>which is totally fine ofc
04:45<TrueBrain>but this always makes it a bit difficult if you use 'git describe' to describe how far away from a tag you are
04:45<TrueBrain>as that is postrelease, not pre :P
04:46<andythenorth>o_O
04:46<nielsm>I guess you're supposed to bump the major/minor/patch right after a release then? so you always indicate what the next version will be
04:47<TrueBrain>but than you need tooling that understands this 'bump' version
04:47<TrueBrain>as git won't have that information
04:47<TrueBrain>and depending on the content of a repository, this information is in different places
04:47<nielsm>initially bump patch by 1, and when you do a breaking change you bump minor or major and reset the remaining
04:47<TrueBrain>I wish git could have 'forseen' tags :D
04:52<andythenorth>all we need is predicting the future
04:52<andythenorth>simples
04:52<TrueBrain>you just want one way to define the 'next version', independing on the content of the repository
04:52<TrueBrain>which is not trivial
04:53<TrueBrain>or you need to dedicate a single file to contain that content
04:56<TrueBrain>https://hackmd.io/k8pmIG-EQYuU2vJ-OiVPxA <- did I type over the URL correctly?
04:57<TrueBrain>(my clipboard still doesnt work :P)
04:59<nielsm>404
04:59<TrueBrain>bah
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05:00-!-TrueBrain is "Patric Stout" on #openttd #openttd.notice #dorpsgek #opendune
05:00<TrueBrain>why is this channel still registered only?
05:01<TrueBrain>https://hackmd.io/kRpmIG-EQYuU2vJ-OiVPxA
05:02<TrueBrain>@whoami
05:02<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: TrueBrain
05:02<TrueBrain>@mode -R
05:02-!-mode/#openttd [-R] by DorpsGek
05:02<TrueBrain>when are we moving to Slack? :P
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05:04<andythenorth>oof
05:04<andythenorth>dunno why I am anti Slack
05:04<andythenorth>everyone I know uses it
05:05<andythenorth>I'm waiting to be told the answer: isn't Discord just better?
05:05<andythenorth>o_O
05:05<TrueBrain>Discord is being a bit weird .. seems to want to become the next Steam ..
05:05<TrueBrain>and I find it really hard there to follow any conversation
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05:09<TrueBrain>I wonder what would happen if we say: the new BaNaNaS only publishes files from a GitHub repository
05:10<TrueBrain>absolute panic, I am afraid :P
05:10<andythenorth>o_O
05:10<andythenorth>works for me :P
05:11<TrueBrain>it is more in character of OpenTTD's Open Source ideology ofc
05:11<TrueBrain>and would allow to make a nice auto-release around it
05:11<TrueBrain>I also have been thinking we can use the new 'pypi' as used by Python
05:11<TrueBrain>as that basically has everything we are looking for, as far as I can tell
05:12<TrueBrain>either way, I am slowly trying to word why I am having a bit of a hard time cleaning up the OpenTTD infrastructure
05:13<TrueBrain>it is not only huge, there is also a lot of interaction between components which have 'organicaly grown'
05:14<andythenorth>usual amount of mess? o_O
05:14<andythenorth>unclear boundaries between proper domains?
05:14<andythenorth>string
05:14<andythenorth>stuff and things
05:15<TrueBrain>yup; how things were done 15 years ago :P
05:15<TrueBrain>over the years I did try to split away services I could
05:15<TrueBrain>but some I never managed to untangle
05:15<TrueBrain>services calling internal services back then was a big no-no
05:15<TrueBrain>now it is the most common thing ever
05:15<TrueBrain>in result, the webserver running www.openttd.org also runs most other domains, as there is crosstalk :P
05:17<TrueBrain>and I cannot find a clean path to do a nice migration. Seems it needs more of a big-bang than I would like
05:17<TrueBrain>I know how I want the result to look .. just the road to it .. ugh ..
05:18<andythenorth>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus
05:18<TrueBrain>anyway, any feedback on the above document is very welcome :)
05:22<andythenorth>403 :P
05:23<TrueBrain>oops
05:23<TrueBrain>reload
05:23<andythenorth>ok
05:26<nielsm>does the CI pipeline protect sufficiently against malicious changes to makefile, strgen, etc?
05:27<TrueBrain>no, as that sadly is nearly impossible
05:27<TrueBrain>well, not in the sense that it is validated or something
05:27<TrueBrain>it is simply fenced
05:27<TrueBrain>that is why there is so much Docker image talk
05:27<TrueBrain>and in the CI, if an image runs more than N minutes, it is killed
05:27<TrueBrain>it has no internet connection
05:27<TrueBrain>etc
05:27<TrueBrain>"best effort"
05:28<TrueBrain>that is also why the preview is a whitelist command; which ever developer triggers a preview, really should be sure there is nothing weird going on :)
05:29<TrueBrain>but very explcitly, the CI doesn't publish anything
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05:30<Wolf01>o/
05:31<Wolf01>Let's see if the new router works better
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05:35<TrueBrain>nielsm: added some bla about that part :)
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06:12<Wolf01>Mmmh, changing the timezone requires reboot
06:14<TrueBrain>right .. I tried to see which service I could use as proof-of-concept for the above ...
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06:14<TrueBrain>MS + MSU is integrated in the main website. The correct solution is to split those services in an API based system, instead of via MySQL
06:15<TrueBrain>ottd_content is heavily integrated with too many subservices to count .. ugh
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06:15<TrueBrain>BaNaNaS is most decoupled; it just needs to know which user is logged in, access to MySQL, and access to a file storage to write files
06:16<TrueBrain>main website is decoupled a lot; it can use local files or can poll a http for its information
06:16<TrueBrain>I years ago already started to decouple that
06:16<TrueBrain>so I guess the main website is the primary candidate ..
06:16<TrueBrain>has some minor MySQL queries it needs
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06:16<TrueBrain>even there, a rewrite could be faster than trying to move it ..
06:17<TrueBrain>le sigh
06:18<andythenorth>TrueBrain: isn't frosch solving bananas?
06:18<andythenorth>alone?
06:18<TrueBrain>with no ETA, yes
06:18<andythenorth>main website
06:18<TrueBrain>(which is totally fine btw)
06:18<andythenorth>main website 1:1 reimplmentation? No content or style changes?
06:18<TrueBrain>I considered it
06:19<TrueBrain>I even once did that like a year ago
06:19<TrueBrain>so I guess that is the best thing to pick up
06:19<andythenorth>ideally it would be in a safe place so people like me could modify it
06:19<andythenorth>that might even be true now
06:19<andythenorth>but I have NFI how I'd start :P
06:19<TrueBrain>I was thinking of making it a fully static website
06:19<andythenorth>I've dug around the web repos before, but it all looks strung together
06:19<TrueBrain>so if you have a blog to post, make a commit in the repository for it
06:20<andythenorth>I'm a big fan of static web content
06:20<TrueBrain>the only dynamic part is the server-listing
06:20<andythenorth>all my newgrf docs are static, compile-once
06:20<TrueBrain>so I was wondering if we should just make that javascript-only
06:20<andythenorth>seems reasonable
06:20<TrueBrain>currently it is 'static' (server-side generated)
06:20<andythenorth>seems obvious candidate for XHR?
06:21<TrueBrain>I like that the website is without javascript tbh
06:21<andythenorth>node on the server :P
06:21<andythenorth>ugh
06:21<TrueBrain>and the top banner is a bit of an issue
06:21<TrueBrain>that will always be dynamic, I guess
06:22<andythenorth>edge side includes? :P
06:22<TrueBrain>I guess what I can do, is setup a small API in the old infrastructure
06:22<TrueBrain>which gives both the server listing as the downloads
06:23<TrueBrain>make the new website a very simple server-side static-page webserver
06:23<TrueBrain>(so do the API calls on the server, instead on the client)
06:23<TrueBrain>that decouples it a bit more
06:23<andythenorth>the less we have to pick a framework, the happier I would be
06:24<TrueBrain>I really really want to avoid Django or something :P
06:24<andythenorth>is Apache + a WSGI server too simple?
06:24<TrueBrain>I was thinking aiohttp
06:24<TrueBrain>well, it will run in kubernetes, so it will be nginx-loadbalancer, with for example aiohttp (via http)
06:25<TrueBrain>that scales stupid-well
06:25<andythenorth>aiohttp looks simple at first glance
06:25<TrueBrain>possibly a memcache or redis for caching
06:25<TrueBrain>Python3.6 async ftw .. makes coding so much easier
06:25<andythenorth>I have a makefile that generates static html pages from templated source :P
06:25<TrueBrain>just a bit slower
06:25<TrueBrain>that is the other solution
06:25<TrueBrain>snapshot the website every 5 minutes or so
06:26<TrueBrain>from dynamic information
06:26<andythenorth>and just say 'server list updated every 5 mins'?
06:26<TrueBrain>that is already what happens
06:26<TrueBrain>as the server list is EXPENSIVE to generate :P
06:26<andythenorth>I don't object to JS personally, except obviously JS is horrible
06:26<andythenorth>it's pretty much universal
06:27<andythenorth>it's also horrible to write, and I don't even want to think about the opsec implications of it :P
06:27<TrueBrain>what is also 'hot', that if you don't have javascript, you are piped through a system that generates the page for you
06:27<andythenorth>fallback
06:27<andythenorth>let me know if you want me to write any html :P
06:28<TrueBrain>you just said to copy/paste the current :P
06:28<andythenorth>even better
06:28<TrueBrain>guess it is a matter of picking what method to use
06:30<LordAro>TrueBrain: i'd like to look over your suggestions, but am busy until this evening :(
06:30<TrueBrain>LordAro: I welcome any feedback :)
06:30<TrueBrain>it is not like I can execute what I wrote in a day, so no worries ;)
06:34<LordAro>ture enough :)
06:38<LordAro>ture.
06:38<LordAro>yes.
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06:43<andythenorth>I should probably keep running costs simple eh, no 'cost more as engine gets older' stuff :P
06:46<Wolf01>andythenorth: this image is the perfect reply: https://img-9gag-fun.9cache.com/photo/amB8XZ4_460s.jpg
06:47<andythenorth>oops
06:47<andythenorth>just poured coffee into my laptop keyboard
06:48<Wolf01>Time to buy a new one
06:48<andythenorth>nothing to do with the image :P
06:48<andythenorth>yup, keyboard doesn't work anyway, again
06:48<Wolf01>*the coffee, not the laptop
06:48<andythenorth>so time to buy yet another new mac
06:48<andythenorth>keys last about 60 days
06:48<andythenorth>then have to buy a new computer from Apple
06:49<andythenorth>gotta keep the share price up by shipping defective computers
06:50<Wolf01>They create a problem and sell the solution
06:51<andythenorth>there's no cost to Apple from it
06:51<andythenorth>Mac sales numbers continue same whether they work or not
06:51<andythenorth>weird
06:52*andythenorth back to costs
06:57<TrueBrain>https://hackmd.io/kRpmIG-EQYuU2vJ-OiVPxA#Main-website
06:57<TrueBrain>andythenorth: did I summarize that correct?
06:59*andythenorth looking
06:59<andythenorth>do we need multi-lingual support in the website?
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07:00<TrueBrain>I do think so
07:00<TrueBrain>not now
07:00<TrueBrain>but I think we needed that 10 years ago
07:00<andythenorth>ok
07:00<andythenorth>it's just extra....stuff :P
07:00<TrueBrain>there are countries where they speak very little English
07:00<Wolf01>So, even with this router it disconnects
07:01<andythenorth>TrueBrain: looks about right to me
07:01<TrueBrain>I tackled things easier by just redirecting to the old server :P
07:01<TrueBrain>like old-www.openttd.org
07:01<TrueBrain>solves creating an API or something NOW, rather than later
07:01<andythenorth>I kind of ran into the weeds, thinking about how we'd store blog posts, dev descriptions etc
07:02<andythenorth>but eh
07:02<TrueBrain>how do you mean?
07:02<andythenorth>whether they're html, json etc
07:02<andythenorth>not an important issue now
07:02<andythenorth>distraction
07:02<TrueBrain>hmm
07:02<TrueBrain>that is not a bad idea tbh
07:02<TrueBrain>if we template anyway
07:02<TrueBrain>just put these things in yaml files
07:02<andythenorth>that sort of thing yes
07:02<TrueBrain>easier to read/maintain etc
07:02<TrueBrain>good point
07:03<andythenorth>we want to be decouple from the html as far as possible
07:03<andythenorth>blog posts are probably better as MD or RST
07:03<TrueBrain>good point
07:03<andythenorth>can't remember which one won but eh
07:03<TrueBrain>MarkDown
07:04<TrueBrain>those are also easy to edit via the GitHub interface
07:04<andythenorth>oh yes they are :D
07:04<andythenorth>good
07:04<TrueBrain>so writing a blog post can be done from GitHub if you like :)
07:04<TrueBrain>I think a blog post should be both a markdown and a yaml file or something .. we will see
07:04<TrueBrain>(meta-data vs content)
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07:04<andythenorth>so simple framework to deal with http stuff
07:04<andythenorth>some publishing classes to handle different content types
07:05<andythenorth>and either static compile (pull latest tag and compile every 5 minutes) or use the framework
07:05<andythenorth>presumably you have some magic thing for polling for new tags?
07:05<TrueBrain>no no, I think you mix two things now :)
07:05<TrueBrain>the repository will compile into a Docker image
07:06<TrueBrain>which runs in the infrastructure
07:06<andythenorth>ok
07:06<TrueBrain>inside that Docker image you have 2 choices:
07:06<TrueBrain>either JiT create the content
07:06<TrueBrain>or create it every N minutes
07:06<andythenorth>ok
07:06<TrueBrain>(so either something like Flask, ..., or nginx + a script that does the templating)
07:06<andythenorth>yes
07:06<TrueBrain>a new blog posts means a new docker image means a new deployment
07:07<TrueBrain>which is exactly what you want btw .. as that allows rolling back etc :)
07:07<andythenorth>JiT or N minutes are both fine with me, it really depends what framework is used, no point fighting the framework to make it do opposite of what it's designed for :)
07:08<TrueBrain>both are valid approaches and have their pros/cons
07:08<TrueBrain>mainly depends for what you optimize
07:10<frosch123>nielsm: https://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Special:RecentChanges <- i updated the specs last night, do you want to double-check?
07:12<nielsm>should probably add some OTTD 1.9 version marks and not-ttdpatch marks to the new features, e.g. on https://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Callback:_Cargo_sub-type_display_for_industries
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07:18<nielsm>https://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Action0/Industry_Tiles <-- technically 0A..0C now also take signed acceptance rates
07:19<nielsm>and there is an accidental č in "ačceptance"
07:19<nielsm>and missing space after the not-patch icon for prop 12 new flag
07:23<frosch123>nielsm: you can login there with your tt-forums account
07:23<nielsm>oh
07:25<nielsm>if I could remember what password I used there
07:25<nielsm>>_>
07:25<nielsm>should add it to my password manager
07:25<frosch123>didn't you just post a few days ago? :p
07:26<nielsm>cookie
07:26<frosch123>12 year old cookie?
07:26<nielsm>nah more like 10-11 months old
07:30<nielsm>well, turns out I can't sign in to the wiki after changing forums password, "Auto-creation of a local account failed: Automatic account creation is not allowed. "
07:31<frosch123>orudge: ^^ any idea?
07:32<andythenorth>I see that some times
07:32<andythenorth>I don't know what causes it to get fixed though
07:32<andythenorth>I was locked out of wiki for several years
07:32<andythenorth>then I wasn't
07:35<frosch123>nielsm: 0A..0C can't be negative. that only works for 13
07:36<frosch123>and i think we shouldn't change that
07:37<nielsm>agree it could break old things
07:38<nielsm>I just remembered it as blindly loading in the bytes
07:38<frosch123>currently there is a Clamp in the code, so i would expect some grfs to set 0xFF to make it maximum accepting :p
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07:59<TrueBrain>andythenorth: after some thinking, it is only the download banner that is left as 'dynamic'. So generating static files every N minutes is much less work I guess .. still .. not sure which option is best :D
08:00<andythenorth>it really depends on framework
08:00<andythenorth>having a makefile spit out static assets to filesystem is ez, but we have to write one to do it
08:00<TrueBrain>if you generate the static files on start of the Docker, and than every N minutes the main.html .. that sounds easiest
08:00<TrueBrain>or even during building of the Docker
08:00<andythenorth>if we pick a framework that has a request object and templating built in
08:01<andythenorth>then that's ez too, but frameworks go out of fashion
08:01<andythenorth>make never does :P
08:01<TrueBrain>yeah .. I think it is more: use a framework yes/no :P
08:01<andythenorth>I prefer no
08:01<TrueBrain>as you really dont need one for this
08:01<TrueBrain>you just need some minor server-side-include
08:01<andythenorth>just use a http server, simple
08:01<TrueBrain>meaning you can link it directly into nginx .. blazing fast :P
08:01<andythenorth>easier for people to pick up and develop on too
08:01<andythenorth>fewer deps
08:02<TrueBrain>and if we put the dynamic parts in other services
08:02<TrueBrain>those might need a framework
08:02<TrueBrain>more complex
08:02<TrueBrain>but they are in the minority
08:02<andythenorth>this is the python file that generates FIRS docs https://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/firs/repository/entry/src/render_docs.py#L270
08:02<andythenorth>most of it is just helper formatting crap
08:02<andythenorth>the actual generation is the kind of thing can be written in 1 hour
08:03<andythenorth>and re-written as needed
08:03<andythenorth>does templates, txt, MD, graphviz, images
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08:04<andythenorth>make calls that as needed
08:04<andythenorth>frameworks tend to attract rewrites in framework-du-jour :P
08:06<TrueBrain>I wonder if eints can do Markdown translations :P
08:06<TrueBrain>:D
08:07<TrueBrain>owh, I forgot we also have a list of languages that need support
08:07<TrueBrain>does anyone ever noticed that the background image on the main site changes every day? :P
08:08<frosch123>i think you told that before, i never verified
08:08<TrueBrain>:D
08:08<TrueBrain>having screenshots in the repository might also mean they will get updated once in a while, I guess
08:09<frosch123>aww, no longer "latest user screenshot"?
08:09<TrueBrain>I think there wil be
08:09<TrueBrain>we can template that :)
08:10<frosch123>i kind of liked the dynamic version number in that screenshot :)
08:10<TrueBrain>I like how it has given so few complaints :P
08:10<TrueBrain>it shows the same for .. 5 years now? :P
08:10<frosch123>11
08:10<frosch123>hmm, 9
08:10<TrueBrain>owh, it is not even the 1.4 indeed
08:10<TrueBrain>lol
08:11<frosch123>i think it was 2008. so 10
08:11<TrueBrain>:D
08:11<TrueBrain>game still looks the same, so meh :D
08:13<andythenorth>I should mail in some screenshots eh?
08:13<andythenorth>:D
08:13<andythenorth>I like how they're in no particular order
08:13<andythenorth>0.5.0 is after 0.4.8
08:13<andythenorth>but 0.6.0 is before
08:13<frosch123>there is a mail folder "unhandled screenshots" or so
08:13<andythenorth>lol
08:14<TrueBrain>andythenorth: order is sorted by mtime .. and someone changed a 0.4.8 screenshot between0.5 and 0.6 :P
08:14<TrueBrain>what I like that all screenshots look the same .. I do not spot what has changed for that versions :D
08:15<frosch123>look more closely
08:15<frosch123>and you will find screenshots which are not from the version listed
08:15<TrueBrain>those are the best!
08:16<TrueBrain>I still like the cake :D
08:16<TrueBrain>mostly as the screenshot on the cake is a lie :D
08:16<frosch123>https://www.openttd.org/en/screenshot/1.0/20090113_deteroystein <- this screenshot is listed as 1.0, but is from before 0.6
08:17<andythenorth>well it's nice when we delete them :)
08:18*andythenorth likes scorched earth
08:18<frosch123>but well, the distinguishing only works for older version, which added more visible features
08:19<frosch123>though maybe andy can recognise firs versions
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08:20<andythenorth>we used to be better at advertising :D https://www.openttd.org/en/screenshot/0.4.8/saint_berdetta
08:20<andythenorth>https://www.openttd.org/en/screenshot/0.4.8/more_is_better
08:20<andythenorth>who was the copywriter? o_O
08:21<andythenorth>so nice :) https://www.openttd.org/en/screenshot/1.0/20090821_luuk_de_vries
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08:22<TrueBrain>that is STILL going on? Lol
08:22<frosch123>that was the reason for R :)
08:22<TrueBrain>I assumed that would have gone away by now :(
08:22<TrueBrain>@mode +R
08:22-!-mode/#openttd [+R] by DorpsGek
08:22<TrueBrain>bah
08:22<TrueBrain>move to Slack you say? :P
08:23<andythenorth>because slack is not exploitable for mal?
08:23<andythenorth>is it magic?
08:23<TrueBrain>because on Slack they dont ask you to join freenode-shit
08:23<TrueBrain>:P
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08:26<andythenorth>oof so if I get slack
08:27<andythenorth>I can't leave arbitrary channels
08:27<andythenorth>we're considering switching work irc to slack
08:27<andythenorth>but then I'll be required to be in work channels in evenings and weekends
08:27<andythenorth>no way to leave
08:27<TrueBrain>2 accounts? :P
08:28<andythenorth>ok so there's a teams thing
08:28<Wolf01>I won't move to slack, discord, shitstuff in general :P
08:29<andythenorth>you will in the end
08:29<TrueBrain>they made an XKCD for you
08:29<Wolf01>I will only if I want to keep contact with people, but do I really want it?
08:29<andythenorth>that's the XKCD where nothing has won yet?
08:29<andythenorth>I hate this shit
08:29<andythenorth>I wish something would just win
08:30<TrueBrain>https://xkcd.com/1782/
08:30<andythenorth>yeah that's what we'll do at work
08:30<andythenorth>slack<->irc bridge for some people
08:30<TrueBrain>its sad, but that XKCD is really true
08:30<TrueBrain>some people have a weird fetish with IRC
08:30<andythenorth>it's just simple
08:31<andythenorth>and there's no company involved
08:31<Wolf01>:D
08:31<andythenorth>it's nice
08:31<TrueBrain>it is horrible
08:31<TrueBrain>no history, no offline messaging, no images (lolz), doesnt integrate with anything (not really anyway), ..
08:31<Wolf01>Because you don't have stickers, images, the emoticons are weird?
08:31<TrueBrain>but mostly, I hate IRC for the lack of history
08:31<TrueBrain>it kinda forces you to be always-on
08:32<Wolf01>Starcraft classic chat was on irc, I joined that may times
08:32<Wolf01>Many
08:32<TrueBrain>I noticed that since I started to use non-IRC stuff, life got a bit easier :) People can message me while I am offline, I can answer when-ever
08:32<TrueBrain>channels where people announce things I can read back on with ease
08:32<TrueBrain>basically, an IRC bouncer done right
08:32<andythenorth>TrueBrain: you just described all the upsides :P
08:33<andythenorth>no history, no messaging, no images
08:33<andythenorth>anyway, I am waiting for Slack to have definitively won
08:33<TrueBrain>Discord is winning big for games
08:33<andythenorth>it has yet to kill either Discord or Whatsapp
08:33<TrueBrain>but that is mainly because of voice and game integration
08:33<TrueBrain>Mattermost is getting ground in companies, because HipChat said: BYE
08:34<TrueBrain>(Mattermost can be run on-premise)
08:34<Wolf01>The big problem is that you *MUST* register even to read, that's not what I want
08:34<TrueBrain>Wolf01: you do know this channel is running +R atm right? :P
08:34<Wolf01>Yes, but it's not the default
08:34<andythenorth>MM is new to me
08:34<TrueBrain>till it is
08:35<TrueBrain>Mattermost was clever; When HipChat announced they were stopping, they jumped on all threads and announced that they exist
08:35<andythenorth>hmm
08:35<TrueBrain>like GitLab did with GitHub takeover by Microsoft :P
08:35<TrueBrain>very clever :)
08:35<andythenorth>they're selling 'you can do compliance'?
08:35<andythenorth>but I would rather Slack did the compliance
08:35<andythenorth>they have a shareprice to maintain
08:35<Wolf01>And I'm registered because I need (or might need) to use all the irc services, not just to read or join this chan
08:35<andythenorth>whereas hiring and managing people to do compliance is frigging hard
08:35<TrueBrain>in general, I am a fan of Cloud-based solutions; how ever annoying they might be, they are a lot more stable than any other
08:36<TrueBrain>also the reason I am very happy with GitHub
08:36<TrueBrain>nobody has to maintain it :)
08:36<TrueBrain>(well, they do, but who cares about that :P)
08:36<TrueBrain>that said, I am not using Slack myself atm; nobody to talk to :(
08:37<andythenorth>github, that's who. github cares :P
08:37<andythenorth>TrueBrain should I get slack?
08:37<andythenorth>we can 'chat' :P
08:37<TrueBrain>on the new website we just publish Slack details
08:37<TrueBrain>and see how long these old rats here survive :P
08:37<TrueBrain>MWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
08:38<Wolf01>I'll continue to join here until the server dies :P
08:38<TrueBrain>you see IRC servers getting lower and lower volume of active people
08:38<TrueBrain>I wonder when it comes to a value that is not sustainable
08:38<TrueBrain>guess therew ill always be those few that want to be on IRC :D
08:38<frosch123>sounds like "i installed irc and made it autostart, i do not know how to remove it, so i pretend it is intentional"
08:39<TrueBrain>lol!
08:39<Wolf01>TBH, I still use irc to join here, I have 3 chans on another server where I'm the only one active
08:41<andythenorth>most of the people in this channel aren't reading it, right?
08:41<nielsm>my dislike for discord, slack, etc. is that they're heavyweight protocols with heavyweight clients, and you aren't really free to make your own client (in part because the protocol is a moving target)
08:41<andythenorth>they set up a bouncer in 2004 and forgot
08:42<frosch123>andythenorth: we lost about 20 people last year
08:42<nielsm>and they're centralized, it's not your server and it can't be your server
08:42<frosch123>we used to be around 120-130 users, now there are 90-100
08:42<nielsm>(despite discord abusing the "server" moiniker)
08:44<Wolf01>frosch123, we really are like 20, we lost like 4 active people in the last year
08:44<TrueBrain>oeh, what I also like about Slack / MatterMost, they have 'threads' .. where you can follow a conversation inside a channel, while other conversations happen
08:44<TrueBrain>that is so nice
08:44<andythenorth>sounds awful :)
08:44<andythenorth>I like mixed threads, keeps my brain juicy
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08:45<andythenorth>TrueBrain: so, can you make the Docker stuff, choose a http server, and make it serve a simple index.html on staging.openttd.org ?
08:45<andythenorth>and put it in a repo
08:45<andythenorth>and tell me how to build it :P
08:45<TrueBrain>haha :D
08:45<andythenorth>fanx
08:45<TrueBrain>I am looking into it
08:52<TrueBrain>Jekyll is used a lot for these kind of websites, it seems
08:52<TrueBrain>but ... ruby ... brrr :P
08:53<andythenorth>I'm not very interested in learning ruby :P
08:53<andythenorth>tbh]
08:53<TrueBrain>you dont need to
08:55<andythenorth>uses Liquid
08:55<andythenorth>Liquid looks fine
08:55<andythenorth>such templating languages
08:55<andythenorth>I only know Chameleon :P
08:55<TrueBrain>I was first installing Slack
08:56<TrueBrain>just ... BECAUSE I CAN
08:58<andythenorth>no
08:58<andythenorth>you can't
08:58<andythenorth>NOT ALLOWED
08:58<TrueBrain>and browseing github, how others do their frontpage
08:58<TrueBrain>it is amazing what you find
08:59<TrueBrain>lot of Ruby stuff
08:59<TrueBrain>lot of npm stuff
08:59<andythenorth>jekyll looks remarkably like a finished version of how I build stuff
08:59<andythenorth>newgrf docs, and internal work docs
09:01<andythenorth>hmm
09:01<TrueBrain>it looks pretty okay tbh
09:01<andythenorth>I could scale vehicle purchase costs by game start date
09:02<TrueBrain>it is simple, to the point, nothing more than needed
09:02<TrueBrain>I just have no clue how to do the download banner with it :D
09:02<andythenorth>I am +/-0 on it
09:02<andythenorth>I am reading about Pelican
09:03<nielsm>andythenorth, you mean so the vehicles available early on in the game are cheap?
09:03<nielsm>regardless of your start date
09:03<andythenorth>when you don't have much money yes
09:03<andythenorth>I think it doesn't work
09:03<nielsm>that sounds like a decent idea
09:03<andythenorth>almost like a discount :P
09:03<andythenorth>'get started' discount
09:03<andythenorth>maybe a GS should do that
09:03<nielsm>if you start in 1980 and even the cheapest loco costs £150k it's hard getting started :P
09:04<andythenorth>TrueBrain: http://docs.getpelican.com/en/stable/quickstart.html#installation
09:05<TrueBrain>feels like that is too minimalistic tbh
09:06<TrueBrain>but it shows 2 things I need to solve: I need a Docker that first generates files to be included in another docker. I did not consider that yet :D
09:06<TrueBrain>second, the download banner is more annoying than expected :)
09:06<andythenorth>iframe :P
09:09<TrueBrain>changes to the banner is a rare event
09:09<TrueBrain>basically, on some signal, you just want to rebuild the image and deploy it, I guess
09:09<TrueBrain>making multiple versions of the same git tag, which is bad
09:09<TrueBrain>but commiting a new version every time a nightly is done, is also shitty
09:20<TrueBrain>okay, what will work, is if we use a Docker image which has nginx and jekyll in it .. then on boot you can fetch the latest downloads, generate the website
09:20<TrueBrain>and validate every N minutes if the latest download changed; if so, regenerate
09:20<TrueBrain>not perfect, but good enough for now
09:27<andythenorth>is local dev done in a docker image, or directly?
09:28<TrueBrain>both
09:33<TrueBrain>meh, 'gems' that need 'gcc'
09:33<TrueBrain>that is never a good sign
09:33<andythenorth>is that not normal?
09:33<andythenorth>I only use ruby for the mac ports tree thing, and that needs gcc frequently :P
09:33<TrueBrain>I hate it when it does
09:33<TrueBrain>it often is also for silly shit
09:34<andythenorth>tbf, newgrfs used to require GCC :P
09:34<TrueBrain>but for Dockerfiles, this often means: install gcc, do stuff, uninstall gcc
09:34<TrueBrain>just annoying
09:34<andythenorth>for templating
09:35<TrueBrain>in this case, jekyll wants to install a http parser
09:35<TrueBrain>I dont want his http part
09:35<TrueBrain>wtf
09:38*andythenorth distrusts 'here is all you need' solutions :P
09:39<TrueBrain>it always wants me to make it myself
09:40<TrueBrain>but .. that just adds yet-another-solution to the mix :)
09:43<TrueBrain>life is never simple :P
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09:52<TrueBrain>meh .. the webserver thing is really cramped into Jekyll
09:52<TrueBrain>guess we are not going touse Jekyll :P
09:58<frosch123>oh, flask already has a openid-connect extension
10:01<TrueBrain>that works with GitHub, or?
10:02<frosch123>i assumed so... but some 2015 post says it does some custom oauth2 hack
10:03<TrueBrain>lot of apps allow you to use GitHub as authentication, so not that question I guess?
10:06<TrueBrain>okay, Jekyll is still in the running .. 'apk' (from alpine) is awesome :)
10:07<nielsm>awesome! I have the game playing music from a wav file mixed through mixer.cpp with the rest
10:07<nielsm>(that part's been done before I know)
10:10<nielsm>the goal is to have fluidsynth play through the game mixer, and maybe also add in the opl2/3 emulator from dosbox and support playing from ADLIB.CAT from ttd dos :)
10:10<TrueBrain>I always forget that volume mounts in Docker don't work if you are working on another machine :D LALALALAAAAA :P
10:11<TrueBrain>you are crazy nielsm :)
10:11<TrueBrain>(which is a positive thing)
10:11<nielsm>the hard part was writing (yet another) riff wave file parser
10:12<frosch123>TrueBrain: assuming i would implement authentication delegation into eints/bananas, so translators/contentpeople can login with github, tt-forums if possible, ... would there still be a reason to allow them to login with the existing openttd account?
10:12<TrueBrain>no
10:12<TrueBrain>I would really like to deprecated our own SSO
10:12<TrueBrain>but ... we might want to create a grace period of some sorts
10:12<frosch123>i wonder about stuff like wiki
10:13<TrueBrain>good point
10:13<frosch123>i can hack eints and bananas, but can i hack wiki? :p
10:13<TrueBrain>yes; and it can also just support oauth :)
10:13<TrueBrain>but .. I guess we can slap an oauth on the OpenTTD LDAP
10:13<TrueBrain>which means nobody has to change; but they can
10:14<TrueBrain>for wiki it is also a bit more of anissue, with usernames etc
10:14<TrueBrain>ideal you let people link their OpenTTD account to another OAuth
10:14<TrueBrain>so their username is maintained
10:14<TrueBrain>same goes for BaNaNaS, I guess
10:15<frosch123>i kind of want to implement a small authorisation server, which manages user permissions for translators etc... kind of the current ldap roles, but without the authentication stuff
10:15<TrueBrain>so I am afraid we will be forced to preseed BaNaNaS with OpenTTD LDAP :(
10:15<TrueBrain>local applications should always do authorization ofc
10:16<TrueBrain>not sure it needs to be a server, or part of the application
10:16<TrueBrain>but that is up to you ofc :)
10:16<TrueBrain>but yeah, I am with you on the: lets move away from our own LDAP :)
10:16<TrueBrain>I would really like all parts of OpenTTD to be "on their own"
10:16<TrueBrain>easier in development etc etc
10:17<nielsm>https://github.com/nielsmh/OpenTTD/tree/sampled-music
10:17<nielsm>not making a PR for this, just yet :P
10:17<nielsm>very much haxhax
10:38<TrueBrain>meh, I have to learn to a bit too much about how Ruby does packaging for my taste :P
10:40<andythenorth>apache and a python script :P
10:41<andythenorth>red neck solution
10:41<TrueBrain>ah, finally have it running via both local 'serve' as Docker
10:41<TrueBrain>if I can now forget everything I learned, I am fine
10:48<TrueBrain>okay .. so next step is to clean up the files, and push that to github ..
10:50<nielsm>okay I think I have fluidsynth playing through the mixer now
10:51<andythenorth>ha ha
10:51<andythenorth>:)
10:53<nielsm>birds are weird, I think their sound output is linked to level of brain activity, whenever a stimulus arrives sound is produced
11:05<frosch123>mostly mammals here
11:13<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] J0anJosep commented on pull request #6958: Fix #6864: Normalise colour use in Frame rate window https://git.io/fxhpw
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11:35<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] J0anJosep commented on pull request #6935: Add: EnsureNoShipFromDiagDirs https://git.io/fxhha
11:50<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] J0anJosep commented on pull request #6927: Change: Forbid dock placement on docking area https://git.io/fxhj3
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12:18<andythenorth>is Wolf01 a mammal?
12:20<frosch123>werewolves count as mammals
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12:44<andythenorth>frogs?
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13:20*andythenorth busy busy
13:21<andythenorth>nielsm: seen the comments on ship stuff?
13:21<andythenorth>I'm inclined to agree
13:24<nielsm>right, it does seem many of them are mostly trying to prevent AIs from shooting themselves too close to the ankle and lose the entire foot
13:26<andythenorth>samu runs long games watching AIs
13:26<andythenorth>and then proposes trunk patches to fix isolated cases he's seen
13:26<andythenorth>there is probably some metaphor about boiling the ocean or something
13:34<frosch123>why do 99 people watch openttd on gh?
13:35<frosch123>why get notified about all conversations when not participating in any of them?
13:35<TrueBrain>because they like the spam?
13:35<frosch123>are these the same people as in this channel?
13:35<TrueBrain>some are :P
13:37<TrueBrain>oeh, more than 1000 stars \o/
13:37<TrueBrain>I didnt even gave it a star :o
13:38<frosch123>yes, we surpassed openttd-deprecated pretty quick
13:38<frosch123>also in forks
13:38<TrueBrain>I like how the last commit is from the 26th of July :P
13:39<frosch123>well, some of the forks are from bots which fork everything, possibly trying to consume gh resources
13:39<frosch123>(no idea why)
13:40<nielsm>I think some also fork projects to get them appear on their profile
13:40<nielsm>as if they were working on it
13:41<frosch123>yes, but when people have >1000 repositories, i consider them bots :)
13:41<andythenorth>one day software will eat all the world
13:41<andythenorth>nvm
13:41<andythenorth>also, how many bags of mail in an 8/8 mail wagon?
13:41<TrueBrain>12
13:41<andythenorth>default game is 30-37
13:41<andythenorth>depending on type
13:42<frosch123>take an educational approach, make all capacities prime numbers
13:43<frosch123>i am sure some people get annoyed if you set capacity to 31
13:43<andythenorth>capacity prime
13:43<andythenorth>is that an autobot?
13:45<frosch123>even more scary are the people following me
13:55<frosch123>https://github.com/torvalds/linux/pulls <- exploring gh is like exploring yt
13:56<frosch123>someone wrote a bot to reply to every pr that prs are not used
13:57<TrueBrain>but not even closed
13:57<TrueBrain>lol
14:01<TrueBrain>so much trolling in those PRs
14:01<TrueBrain>lol
14:01<frosch123>no code of conduct :)
14:01<TrueBrain>so many PRs to revert the CoC :P
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14:05<frosch123>i really wonder about the idea behind that bot
14:05<frosch123>did people not know you can disable pr creation, or is that a newer gh feature which did not exist in the past?
14:06<LordAro>i think the latter
14:06<LordAro>o/ all
14:06<frosch123>as it is now, it ridicules everyone opening one
14:07<TrueBrain>I also think if you close PRs, people get even more confuse
14:07<TrueBrain>(as in, disable PRs)
14:08<TrueBrain>why SONOS, every time I want to use the app, you are FORCING Me to update before I can play music ... sometimes I simply dont have time to do the update first .. ugh ..
14:10<andythenorth>but imagine the infosec compliance
14:11<andythenorth>forcibly closed vulns
14:11<andythenorth>right?
14:18<Wolf01> <andythenorth> is Wolf01 a mammal? <- what made you think I might be a mammal?
14:21<Wolf01>I might be a reptilian or an astral being
14:21<frosch123>it's fine as long as you are no bird
14:24<Wolf01>Mmmh, I need to exercise a bit, but to do what I want I need a bench...
14:24<frosch123>standard excuse :)
14:25<Wolf01>I just purchased the weights :(
14:26<Wolf01>But I need the bench for one specific exercise
14:26<Wolf01>All the others are free body
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14:33<Wolf01>Mmmh, the bed seem to be high enough, but a bit too soft
14:34<Wolf01>https://www.bodyfitnesstip.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Back-exercises-dumbbell%201.png <-
14:41<Wolf01>Wow, it works, the pain faded away with 2 series O_O
14:45<andythenorth>\o/
14:51<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on issue #6903: selected rail type should be included in game saves https://git.io/fxjLq
14:52<andythenorth>that's just 'save UI stuff' coming up again
14:52<andythenorth>which we don't do
14:52<andythenorth>window positions are same problem
14:53<nielsm>have a client-side cache of last used railtype per save file and per server address, keep the last 10 or so of each of singleplayer and multiplayer
14:53<nielsm>but not storing it in the save file
14:54<andythenorth>yes it's client state
14:54<andythenorth>not savegame
14:54<andythenorth>photoshop doesn't rearrange itself when I open a .psd
14:54<nielsm>you should write that on the ticket :)
14:54<andythenorth>oof
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14:55<andythenorth>it should just be one persistent UI state, but it's probably too big for openttd.cfg?
14:55<andythenorth>maybe
14:55<andythenorth>that's where we keep other stuff like newgrf list
14:55<frosch123>currently you can store stuff globally and per company
14:56<frosch123>per client makes singleplayer/multiplayer/reloading pretty undefined
15:00<nielsm>re. https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/issues/6890 -- I think attempting to trigger it would need adding a single-step function to run a single tick at a time from pause mode
15:00<nielsm>but is it worth trying to fix?
15:01<frosch123>you need the crash.sav
15:01<frosch123>then you know which rv disconnected where
15:02<frosch123>as it is now, noone knows what is happening since it is not reproducible
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15:33<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on issue #6865: Drawing vertical/horizontal lines of width>1 problem https://git.io/fxjqW
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16:17<andythenorth>what don't I get? https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1214447#p1214447
16:17<andythenorth>https://www.openttd.org/en/
16:18<andythenorth>I dont' want to be an asshole
16:18<andythenorth>but isn't that a blog post?
16:19<Wolf01>I thought you ragequit the forum :P
16:21<andythenorth>I took a break
16:21<andythenorth>because ragequit was 1 step away
16:21<andythenorth>in a kind of dumb way
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16:27<nielsm>oh well, back to work tomorrow
16:27<nielsm>gn
16:27<andythenorth>bye
16:27<LordAro>and he was never seen again
16:28<Wolf01>:o
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---Logclosed Mon Nov 05 00:00:56 2018