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#openttd IRC Logs for 2018-11-09

---Logopened Fri Nov 09 00:00:01 2018
00:55<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 opened issue #6966: GSTown.PerformTownAction crashes OpenTTD if called during world generation
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10:54<nielsm>still playing arouind with this...
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13:30<nielsm>I guess I should try playing a real game with that house cargo patch
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13:53<andythenorth>I played a game once
13:53<andythenorth>it was greaat
13:54<andythenorth>nielsm: you should play test my newgrfs :P
13:54<andythenorth>LordAro: funny you should mention that
13:54*andythenorth tanking now
13:56<nielsm>I hope if the patch goes in, the default is changed away from original btw ;)
13:56<Wolf01>I'm playing for real with my new lego microbots
13:57<andythenorth>nielsm: Horse 2, not even a beta yet, but eh :P
13:57<andythenorth>you should probably play with default vehicles though
13:57<andythenorth>for balance reasons
13:58<andythenorth>I would test these patches too
13:58<andythenorth>if I had a clean compile :P
14:03<Wolf01> andythenorth
14:06<andythenorth>Wolf01: FIRS in lego?
14:06<Wolf01>Yeah, why not?
14:07<andythenorth>it's a series, looks like a coal mine too?
14:07<andythenorth>looks like Faller HO buildings
14:12<Wolf01> seem really good
14:14<Wolf01> the blast furnace is gorgeous
14:14<frosch123>hmm.. dwarf factorio
14:17<andythenorth>yeah he's doing Faller kits
14:17<andythenorth>and FIRS :P
14:19<andythenorth>I considered same for game sprites
14:19<andythenorth>did I do a concrete works?
14:19<andythenorth>hmm no
14:22<frosch123>does hog have a conrete mixing truck?
14:24<andythenorth>considered it
14:24<andythenorth>what does it deliver though? o_O
14:24<andythenorth>I considered some kind of building site industry, but it's weird
14:24<andythenorth>houses accept concrete? o_O
14:25<nielsm>hmm :s
14:25<nielsm>it didn't do that before
14:26<nielsm>I've also seen helipad sprites overlap the helipad recently
14:26<nielsm>helipad overlapping helicopter *
14:27<frosch123>(does it need dev tools active?)
14:27<nielsm>I do have the dev tools enabled
14:28<nielsm>doesn't reproduce reliably, seems to also depend on position of vehicles on screen
14:28<frosch123>hmm, you mean "recently"? try without 25ab9c19?
14:28<nielsm>the sprite sorting performance patch, I presume?
14:29<frosch123>i did not check the last version, so no idea what it actually did
14:30<frosch123>but spritesorting is not well-defined, so always magical :)
14:31<nielsm>yeah not immediately seeing anything with that reverted
14:37<nielsm>this is pretty good, if I am to say myself:
14:37<nielsm>(cargo amounts, profits)
14:42<andythenorth>so this rescales pax generation per house?
14:42*andythenorth didn't read all the memos
14:43<nielsm> if you want some numbers
14:43<nielsm>I'm playing with the bitcount2 algorithm here
14:44<nielsm>the numbers are pax generated across 5000 tile ticks
14:45<andythenorth>I'm not going to ask how you raised the floor while compressing the ceiling :)
14:45<andythenorth>but it might make a big worthwhile difference to the game
14:45<andythenorth>as long as it doesn't get too compressed
14:45<nielsm>it's actually that the original is scaled by roughly n^2
14:46<andythenorth>very silly :)
14:47<andythenorth>explains a lot
14:48<nielsm>those 5000 tile ticks is a little more than 47 years
14:50<nielsm>which means a size 5 house might generate 2 passengers in a good year with the original algorithm
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14:52<nielsm>while a size 200 house would spew 1000 passengers out every year
15:05<Wolf01>Mmmh, my city is completely locked up on a huge traffic jam... I need to put more roads and fewer houses
15:13<nielsm>well even with this it can still be difficult to control:
15:15<nielsm>(cargodist probably makes the numbers bigger than they strictly need to be)
15:15<andythenorth>it's still a transport game :)
15:15<nielsm>true, it needs stuff to transport :P
15:15<nielsm>though the abundancy of cargo might make the game part too easy
15:16<andythenorth>you need metro trains :P
15:19<nielsm>I'd really like to lower the chance of generation just a bit, but making a 1:3 chance with bits is annoying (I don't want to work it out atm)
15:21<frosch123>scale the population? fake_population = setting * real_population / 16 with setting 8..23 or something
15:22<frosch123>somewhen i wondered whether there is too little mail to transport
15:26<nielsm>I think the best way to adjust generation of the bitcount alg is to adjust this probability:
15:27<nielsm>a 1:3 chance could maybe be counting bits set of two chosen equals to bits set in six chosen
15:28<frosch123>5/16 is pretty much 1:3
15:30<nielsm>I'll try switching to the flat distribution low range alg instead
15:30<nielsm>see if the amounts feel better here
15:30<frosch123>how much is the flat/gaussian distribution noticeable?
15:31<frosch123>the more houses there are the more both are averaged
15:31<frosch123>i think making them very variadic for low house amounts makes the game more interesting
15:32<nielsm>I don't really notice it, I guess
15:34<nielsm> <- changed alg in jan 1960
15:35<nielsm>the bus in the small town makes significantly less profit now
15:41<nielsm>the low-range flat distribution is probably better from a difficulty perspective, although my perception might be skewed by experience ;)
15:42<nielsm>the medium and high levels would seem to make passengers too easy to profit on but are probably interesting for optimization challenge games
15:43<frosch123>well, the total amount of passengers is one thing. but i wonder whether it is possible to actually make the amounts vary, or how many houses does to take to average out any deviations
15:43<nielsm>binomial might be interesting for realism nerds (since it kind-of simulates individual coin flips per potential pax)
15:43<nielsm>but should probably also be tuneable in how much it generates
15:43<frosch123>i think "realism" is a big trap here
15:44<frosch123>if your algorithm has many small random elements, they average out, and in the end there is no randomness
15:44<frosch123>that's kind of what happens with "smooth economy"
15:45<frosch123>if has many small adjustmnets whcih cancel each other out, so there is rarely a big change like with "non-smooth economy"
15:45<nielsm>right, "nothing big ever really happens"?
15:45<frosch123>same applies to ecs. it models so many small details which cancel/average each other, that in the end it does not have any effect
15:46<frosch123>so, i would always go for something that makes the game more diverse than realistic :)
15:46<nielsm>I'm too tired to set anything up now, but my sim could probably be used to build a "full town sim" kind of thing
15:47<frosch123>diverse can make the game interesting, realism can be quite boring
15:47<andythenorth>frosch123: there is too little mail to transport
15:47<andythenorth>or it needs adjusted in newgrf, by increasing value
15:47<frosch123>nielsm: you computed average amounts, can you also compute a standard deviation?
15:49<frosch123>andythenorth: currently nielsm's patch had one setting to adjust 3/4 things: 1. amounts of pax, 2. amount of mail, 3./4. variation fo pax/mail amounts
15:49<frosch123>i try to figure out whether 1. and 2. should be different settings, and whether 3./4. is noticeable at all :)
15:50<nielsm>stddev is probably most interesting if you look at a "whole town" sim, i.e. generation for a cluster of buildings in catchment area of a station
15:50<frosch123>huh? for whole town sim the distribution per house does not matter. it all averages out to the "expected value"
15:50<nielsm>and then sum up a month of values at a time
15:51<frosch123>with gaussian distribution
15:51<frosch123>you can only make small towns interesting, big towns will always be boring :p
15:52<frosch123>(wrt. continuous cargo generation)
15:57<andythenorth>I suspect variation is rarely useful
16:08<andythenorth>I am curious about variation between towns
16:08<andythenorth>and whether there's a single factor that could be exposed to GS or something
16:10<nielsm>something like residents in one town being more likely to take transit than in another town?
16:11<nielsm>I think station rating already covers that plenty
16:11<andythenorth>I was thinking of total generation
16:11<andythenorth>e.g. some towns might like to travel more than others :P
16:11<nielsm>unless you want towns with super angry mayors running smear campaigns against you :P
16:12<andythenorth>tie it to advertising campaign :P
16:12<andythenorth>I only ever use 'bribe' though, dunno what those others do
16:12<nielsm>ad campaign literally raises station ratings
16:13<nielsm>building status gives a permanent station rating boost to stations near the town center
16:14<nielsm>(I don't know if it ties to the town zones, population, or just a fixed range)
16:15<nielsm>funding new buildings is almost always a waste
16:16<frosch123>"commuter towns" vs "tourism towns"
16:16<nielsm>now you're getting into simutrans turf aren't you :P
16:17<andythenorth>one day there'll be a reason to deliver goods
16:17<frosch123>no idea, haven't looked at it in 12 years
16:17<nielsm>play tropical climate and deliver both food and water
16:20<andythenorth>meh :)
16:20<andythenorth>I liked arctic for food above snowline
16:20<andythenorth>everything I want is in GS already
16:20<andythenorth>but GS are single-purpose
16:20<frosch123>toyland is evil
16:20<frosch123>when towns grow they switch from accepting sweets to fizzy drinks
16:21<andythenorth>that is evil
16:21<frosch123>if you want a constant acceptance for sweets you either have to move the station or prevent the town from growing
16:22<andythenorth>ha ha
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---Logclosed Sat Nov 10 00:00:03 2018