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#debian IRC Logs for 2007-09-26

---Logopened Wed Sep 26 00:00:04 2007
---Daychanged Wed Sep 26 2007
00:00|-|buzztracker [] has joined #debian
00:00<peterS>thank: also, once you get used to perl module packages, you can usually guess at package names. if you're looking for Some/, you want to 'apt-cache search Some::File' and if that fails, just try a package named 'libsome-file-perl'
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00:02<linuxfce>how can i overclock my core 2 duo
00:02<jm_>peterS: isn't it the other way arround? perl script wants Some::Foo and you need to search for Some/File?
00:03<Supaplex>linuxfce: feed it 220 volts!
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00:03<Supaplex>oh wait. nm
00:03<linuxfce>lol, i have wondered what would happen if i moved that switch on the back to 220
00:03<peterS>jm_: I said apt-cache not apt-file. the package description will usually mention "Some::File" in it.
00:03[~]Supaplex watches the magic smoke go "poof" from linuxfce's cpu
00:03<linuxfce>is there an easy way to oc this chip
00:03<linuxfce>like cpufreq
00:04<dpkg>I overclock in winter to keep dpkg's toes warm.
00:04<peterS>linuxfce: in general linux isn't going to be able to drive your cpu faster than the bios boots it - cpufreq is just for slowing it down to save power. but the bios itself might have o/c options.
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00:05<linuxfce>no bios oc, dell bios...
00:05<linuxfce>not wiling to try and flash it with an oc version
00:05<linuxfce>and damn nvclock doesn't support geforce 8 series
00:05<peterS>complain to dell then. (: or check out to see if they support your motherboard yet (and see if they support o/c options)
00:06<linuxfce>i can see it now... "sorry, we have determined that you voided your warranty, a motherboard replacement cannot be issued"
00:07<linuxfce>damn dell wouldnt replace my LCD until i put vista back on here
00:07<peterS>your LCD runs Vista? impressive
00:07<linuxfce>yeah its boarder is made of sd cards to store the os
00:08<peterS>must be a tablet with a lot of ram
00:09<Supaplex>I wonder who you could fool with a BSOD poster face down on the scanner.
00:09<linuxfce>i want an ssd raid0 config
00:10<peterS>speaking of bloatware, I was rather surprised to notice the other day, when helping someone install etch on an amd64 box, that aptitude claimed that selecting 'gnome' would add 1 GB to their install. adding 'kde' would add almost exactly the same amount. the two together came somewhat shy of 2 GB, of course, as they do share a few dependencies.
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00:11<niru>Can I get gnome history from somewhere
00:11<niru>how it eveolved
00:11<linuxfce>i wonder how much space kde lite will take
00:11<peterS>two surprises: one, gnome + dependencies, and kde + dependencies, are so big nowadays. two, they are within about 1% of each other's size.
00:12<predder>peterS, when started using kde - I soon learnt that you should just install kde-core
00:12<predder>so you don't get the whole shebang
00:12<linuxfce>do you get konqueror
00:12<linuxfce>id love kde without konqueror
00:12<predder>yup, you're stuck with konqueror
00:12<linuxfce>thats the slowest bloatiest file manager
00:12<peterS>predder: it's not like this guy didn't have unlimited space + bandwidth, so it didn't matter that much. I didn't know what to recommend, though, as I use neither g nor k
00:13<predder>linuxfce, on the plus side it's a decent web browser ;)
00:13<linuxfce>its a pretty slow web browser
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00:13<predder>slow in what respect
00:13<linuxfce>minor hangs
00:13<linuxfce>when links are clicked
00:13<linuxfce>though seems like every browser in linux does that
00:14<peterS>what gets me is the pause before galeon opens a new tab when you middle-click in it to paste a URL into a new tab. you wonder if the paste worked, for a couple seconds.
00:14<peterS>maybe that's just a matter of me needing more ram, but it's a bit annoying
00:15<linuxfce>i wonder why ie is so fast
00:16<peterS>it isn't, in linux
00:16<linuxfce>you wined it? what version?
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00:16<peterS>linuxfce: I didn't do the work. someone else has done it in a really easy to use way. google for ies4linux.
00:17<peterS>linuxfce: basically you 'aptitude install wine unzip cabextract' and maybe one or two other things, then you download and run this guy's ie6 installer
00:17<linuxfce>yeah i read about ies4, but the last time i read it ie7 was hardly experimental
00:17<peterS>I don't need ie7, I only need ie6, for a CRM app I have to use at work
00:17<jm_>it includes several IE versions
00:18<peterS>and ie6 works just fine with ies4linux, so I'm happy. at least, as happy as I'm gonna get, given that I have to use both IE and this stupid CRM app
00:18<linuxfce>i have found crossover to be a good wine tool
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00:19<linuxfce>crossover is available on torrent
00:19<linuxfce>never thought i'd be pirating software on linux, until then
00:19<peterS>geez, don't warez your linux ware. especially when there's a legitimate alternative.
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00:20<linuxfce>whats a good newsgroup binary program in linux
00:22<peterS>I said don't warez your linux ware. therefore I don't believe I'll answer this one (:
00:22<linuxfce>i dont use crossover, and i just want movies..
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00:23<el_alexluna>i have a dual core machine, i want to compile the kernel for the right processor, but i don't know which option i must select in the processor menu, anybody?
00:23<thank>can see picture in the mail by mutt ??
00:23<peterS>el_alexluna: 'i686' is just fine. anything beyond that is tiny, tiny optimisations.
00:23<peterS>el_alexluna: (i686 is the one labeled "Pentium Pro/Pentium II/Pentium III/..." or something like that)
00:24<peterS>el_alexluna: you _do_ want to enable SMP (symmetric multiprocessing), though.
00:24<el_alexluna>but, there isn't a patch for the dual core processor?
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00:24<peterS>dual core is pretty much the same thing as dual CPU. the differences are not something you can select an option for, I believe.
00:25<peterS>i.e., if you have SMP (dual CPU support), it also enables those little things that make dual core processors run well
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00:26<el_alexluna>but, if i enable the SMP on i686, the processador runs on its max
00:28<kelmo>if you believe you need more, consider gentoo...
00:31<mikkelorz>el_alexluna what cpu is it specifically?
00:32<mikkelorz>if you're running a p4 or a pd.. or amd you'd want smp.. if you're running c2d or xeon you'd not want to turn smp on
00:33<peterS>mikkelorz: he said dual core
00:33<mikkelorz>peterS yeah so?
00:33<peterS>mikkelorz: so he wants SMP
00:33<peterS>mikkelorz: otherwise you only get to use one of the cores
00:33<el_alexluna>intel core duo
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00:34<mikkelorz>el_alexluna i'd look into the gentoo wiki regarding cpu's ;)
00:35<mikkelorz>smp != c2d instruction sets
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00:36<peterS>if the word 'duo' does not mean 'two cores', what does it mean? that is a very confusing term.
00:36<kelmo>it requires SMP to use more than one core, mikkelorz
00:36<Supaplex>marketing hype.
00:36<peterS>are you saying a CPU labeled "duo" does not have two cores?
00:37[~]Supaplex has NFC
00:37<Supaplex>hehe sorry :P
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00:37<test1>hi all
00:37<mikkelorz>peterS aah doh i didnt see the 686 lol :P
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00:38<mikkelorz>just that compiling x64 with smp on well result in a kernel panic :]
00:38<test1>peterS, the longman dictionary about word 'duo' writes:
00:38<test1>n plural duos [C] // [Date: 1500-1600; Language: Italian; Origin: 'two', from Latin]//
00:38<test1> 1 two people who perform together or are often seen together: --the comedy duo Reeves and Mortimer//
00:38<test1> 2 a piece of music for two performers: duet//
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00:38<mikkelorz>so here i am rambling about x64 when the guy wants 686 ~~
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00:39<stew>mikkelorz: compiling x64 with smp doesn't result in a kernel panic
00:39<el_alexluna>ok ok, the gentoo's wiki says, the intel dual core is prescott
00:39<peterS>test1: your dictionary doesn't say a whole lot about how that relates to CPU technology. therefore it wasn't too useful.
00:39<el_alexluna>prescott is in the kernel?
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00:40<peterS>prescott is a 686. compile your kernel for 686, and enable SMP. if you do anything more specific than that, I guarantee you will notice no difference.
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00:40<test1>peterS, it is not my dictionary, it is Longman dictionary, and it is a general dictionary, and not a specialized dictionary for computer science
00:40<peterS>test1: therefore it is not useful here. as I said.
00:41<test1>maybe, but it is better than nothing, and
00:41<kinneh>hi all anybody that has problems with debian tesing & vmware (debian cant find the disk) I can install stable and boot into that but if I do a dist-upgrade to testing after a reboot debian losses the disk ... ?
00:41<peterS>test1: no, it is not better than nothing. it was pasting irrelevant information, several lines of it, into an IRC channel. that's generally considered _worse_ than nothing.
00:41<mikkelorz>the core duo uses prescott arch y
00:41<test1>as you see in previous lines it mentioned that, that word is originated from italian language
00:41<mikkelorz>core 2 duo uses it's own :]
00:42<jm_>core 2 duo has got to be the stuppidest marketing term for a CPU so far
00:42<mikkelorz>the most confusing one anyways
00:42<peterS>jm_: oh, I dunno, what was the name of that first-gen or second-gen Pentium II? it was a pretty strange name
00:43<test1>is there anyone knowing why the Intel does not want to increase in clock speed of its CPUs ?
00:43<el_alexluna>peterS, thanks, i'll try
00:43<mikkelorz>test1 easy.. power consumption.. the new buzzword is dual, and quad
00:43<peterS>yes. because increasing clock speed makes a CPU more expensive to manufacture. they think they can get more processing power for their money by parallelizing it.
00:43<jm_>peterS: you mean code name?
00:43<stew>the whole amd scheme of putting a number in the model number which is slightly above the actual clock speed of the chip, and adding + after it is the stupidest in my book
00:44<peterS>jm_: yeah, but I can't remember the name now
00:44<stew># a...
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00:44<jm_>peterS: klamath?
00:44<peterS>yes, klamath
00:44<test1>but increasing in cores make more difficulties for softwares to use all of them, isn't it ?
00:44<sep>stew, and comparing different designs of cpu based on clock speed is not ? :)
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00:45<mikkelorz>test1 not really no
00:45<stew>sep: it is, which is what they are trying to accomplish there
00:45<peterS>test1: that is why you run multiple jobs in parallel. modern operating systems let you run several processes _at the same time_, amazingly enough.
00:45<stew>yay desqview
00:46<test1>but not in several core, only in single core, for example what is about Windows-XP and Vista in multicore CPUs ?
00:46<test1>can them use more than 1 core at the same time .
00:46<peterS>test1: this channel isn't about Windows XP or Vista. perhaps they are limited in some way. we don't care, we run Debian.
00:47<mikkelorz>peterS it's not more expensive to create proccessors with higher clock speeds.. it's just not logical to do so seen from a hardware pow..
00:47<test1>yes , i am using the debian-etch-40r1-amd64 on a core-2-duo CPU nowadays.
00:48<peterS>mikkelorz: oh? I thought you had to use smaller processes (with lower yields) for that
00:48<test1>stew, what about desqview ? is it still alive ?
00:48<peterS>and did it ever support SMP?
00:49<mikkelorz>peterS look at the pentium D for a great example on how NOT to plan a proccessor... it runs at 4ghz but has less throughoutput than a c2d running at 1.83ghz :)
00:49<mikkelorz>higher clock does not mean better computing when it comes to pc's..
00:50<stew>test1: oh, no, i was just reminiscing back to my dos days
00:50<mikkelorz>plus the pipelines were ridicously small in the pentium D.. like squeezing a camel through a keyhole
00:50<peterS>I think you mean pipelines are ridiculously long in other Intel chips
00:51<mikkelorz>peterS narrow would be the word
00:51<peterS>oh, ok
00:51<peterS>I thought you meant short
00:51<mikkelorz>small was a bad choice of word :)
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00:53<test1>mikkelorz, how did you measured those 2 CPUs (Pentium-D-4ghz and c2d-1.83ghz) ?
00:54[~]peterS sleep(330); /* 5h30, not really enough, but will have to do */
00:54<test1>has anyone ever do such comparison ?
00:54[~]peterS sleep(19800); /* bug in previous line, was minutes rather than hours */
00:55<mikkelorz>test1 well windows supports multiproccessing since win2k.. but it's really the applications developed for the platform that matters.. if the manufacturer dosnt write code that supports sse2 or sse3 instruction sets the whole point of having more cores wont matter jack
00:55<mikkelorz>test1 I didnt measure... i just read the articles on tomshardware and anandtech ;)
00:57<stew>mikkelorz: so you are saying that having more cores in debian doesn't matter jack?
00:57<mikkelorz>somewhere along the line intel and amd figured out that having a 10ghz cpu wont matter much if the rest of the platform it runs on cant support it..
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00:58<mikkelorz>stew no im saying that windows users using programs designed with old cpu instruction sets wont benefit from more cores. at least not when running that one program
00:59<jm_>that depends, for some jobs having 10GHz CPU would be better
00:59<mikkelorz>games is a good example
00:59<stew>mikkelorz: why is that only true for windows and not for debian?
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00:59<test1>stew, no, when you run some CPU intensive processes in SMP-debian kernel such as etch they will run on multiple cores, thus uses all of cores, thus better speed than 1-core CPU.
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01:00<stew>test1: i agree. mikkelorz seems to not agree
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01:00<mikkelorz>stew if you run a program designed for 1 core it dosnt matter how many cores you have
01:00<jm_>test1: it won't if it's not multi-threaded - it may bounce from one core to another (not desired), but it won't run on more CPU-s at once simultaneously
01:00<mikkelorz>it's not able to spawn workers
01:01<jm_>or more cores
01:01<test1>mikkelorz, no, is its not dependent on application, it depends on kernel
01:01<stew>mikkelorz: yes, but you were saying that unless you enable sse2 or sse3 it doesn't matter, and that is the part i don't understand
01:01<mikkelorz>test1 it depends very much on the app...
01:02<mikkelorz>stew if you dont write your program to be multithreaded you dont benefit
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01:02<mikkelorz>most games arent multithreaded and most windows apps arent either...
01:02<stew>mikkelorz: i understand this. but you were saying that unless you enable sse2 or sse3 it doesn't matter, and that is the part i don't understand
01:02<test1>i means that those states that you don't want to jump one application from one core to another at some time to time fashion during the running time of that application
01:03<peterS>mikkelorz: you seem to hold the very strange belief that SSE is related to multithreading. where do you get that idea?
01:03<chuy_max>who creates /dev/ttyS* devices?, I have to set ttyS0 config manually with stty for my printer to work, but everytime I restart my PC, I have to set it again with stty
01:03<vapor210>i dont mean to pry but wont the multi cores enable you to do more applications at the same time
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01:03<peterS>chuy_max: try the setserial package
01:03<stew>mikkelorz: and since debian doesn't, in general, enable sse2 or sse3, you were implying that having multiple cores doesn't matter in debian
01:04<jm_>chuy_max: it should be udev creating it for you nowadays
01:04<test1>if you run some CPU intensive application in a SMP-kernel on multicore CPU the kernel itself send each of them that he wants to one of cores available to kernel
01:04<chuy_max>peterS, I've seen the package, using that program will settings be saved?
01:04<mikkelorz>stew well i seem to have mixed up my instruction sets somewhere along the line ':]
01:04<peterS>chuy_max: it has options to apply its settings at boot time, yes
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01:05<chuy_max>thanks jm_ and peterS, I'm searching more info in man pages :)
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01:07<mikkelorz>[07:44] <test1> but increasing in cores make more difficulties for softwares to use all of them, isn't it ?
01:07<mikkelorz>you seem to have answered your own question
01:08<test1>mikkelorz, why, it seems no.
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01:12<mikkelorz>well then what is your question?`
01:12<test1>is there anyone experienced with problems of USB ports ?
01:13<test1>from 2 weeks ago i have a big problem with my USB ports of one of my computers, it is:
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01:13<D0wnT0Earth>how d all
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01:14<test1>when i attach my 1GB-flash ram to one of USB ports, it periodically every 2-30 seconds creates the /dev/sda devices and then clear them, and then create them again, ....
01:14<test1>from where is that problem originated ?
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01:15<test1>how can i solve this problem ?
01:15<test1>i tested that this problem is on all 6 USB ports of mother-board :-(
01:16<peterS>the immediate problem is that udev is creating and deleting devices. but it is probably doing that because the kernel is telling it that your device appears and disappears. the question is why the kernel thinks this.
01:17<stew>test1: does it happen with other usb devices?
01:17<test1>peterS, maybe, and why ? is there anyone knowing this why ?
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01:22<test1>i am testing, but i can use that flash ram in other computers without any problems :-(
01:22<test1>thus it means that this problem is related only to this computer( hardware or OS), doesn't it?
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01:23<mikkelorz>test1 did you compile the kernel yourself?
01:23<mikkelorz>or is it binary?
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01:23<mikkelorz>err deb package
01:24<test1>no, in this computer i am using knoppix 5.1.1-DVD , without any change.
01:25<valdyn> test1 its probably a hardware or a kernel issue, we cant support knoppix kernels here
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01:27<mikkelorz>test1 my bid would be chipset support is wrong
01:27<test1>valdyn, knoppix is debian based , my version is compatible with debian-etch
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01:27<valdyn>!based on debian
01:27<dpkg>Your distribution may be based on Debian, but it is not Debian, and it unlikely lives up to Debian's standards (see <Debian policy>). Only Debian is supported on #debian. If your distribution has an IRC channel, you can use it instead. Even if your distribution has fewer people in its IRC channel, or doesn't have one, support for distributions other than Debian is offtopic on #debian.
01:28<valdyn>test1: you can run 'udevmonitor' to see what's going on
01:28<test1>mikkelorz, which chipset, and why only from 2 weeks ago, i am using this computer from about 1.5 year
01:28<jm_>or simply run dmesg to see what kernel is saying about it
01:30<mikkelorz>would be a start yes
01:31<test1>i am using now udevmonitor, but i'm not familiar with its output messages, can you help ?
01:32<valdyn>test1: its simple, if there's UDEVENTs concerning usb then there's something wrong with the kernel.
01:32<valdyn>test1: ( or hardware naturally )
01:32<valdyn>test1: ...unless you are _really_ replugging that usb thing
01:35<test1>in this 10 minutes another flash ram attached to it had no problem
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01:36<test1>but when i detached it and again attached my own flash-ram again it has problem now :-(
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01:37<test1>it seems that both of computer( hardware or OS) and my own flash ram makes this problem together :-(
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01:37<mikkelorz>well head on over to the knoppix hardware support and lookup your hardware first of all
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01:39<test1>but this flash-ram is working in this 2 weeks with other computers(running with debian-etch and knoppix)
01:40<test1>anyway, thanks
01:42<test1>but on my computer, udevmonitor is producing the following two lines every 2-3 seconds:
01:42<test1>"UEVENT[1190815822.426280] remove@/class/vc/vcsa9"
01:42<test1>"UDEV [1190815822.428211] remove@/class/vc/vcs9"
01:42<test1>can anyone describe their meanings ?
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01:47<jm_>vcs is for consoles
01:48<jm_>to be precise: Virtual console capture devices
01:49<test1>but what is their meaning about continuously removeing and adding ?!!!
01:49<jm_>beats me
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02:11<cojack>some one can tell me, how to make a wallper on fluxbox?
02:12<Supaplex>you need wall paper paste first
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02:14<jm_>display -window root filename
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02:15<jm_>in a terminal ...
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02:31<cojack>thx :)
02:32<Aciid>np :) hope it even a bit
02:33<cojack>and thanks alot for this link, it'll help me with another moron question
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02:40<cojack>Somthing from me, a litle tips
02:41<cojack>if some one use fluxbox, and want to have a date, mean day, month, year near the clock
02:42<cojack>modify him with add: %d.%m.%Y :)
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03:22<cojack>I have next question, becouse I don't have time to look on this web page Accid, did you know how to make a automaticly startx ?
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03:22<cojack>did/do *
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03:26<joseph>Is Gnome dependent on Mono at all?
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03:26<mzhang>how to see the actual voltage the cpu is running at?
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03:28<jm_>cojack: install display manager
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03:29<cojack>I don't want it ;/, I dlike this console :)
03:29<cojack>It's like my shool life on dos :)
03:30<cojack>school *
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03:31<jm_>then I fail to see why you'd want to automatically run startx
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03:33<cojack>It's true, ok fain, you have convicetd me :)
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03:36<amphi>joseph: not yet ;)
03:37<joseph>So why do people keep repeating this as if it were a fact?
03:37<amphi>joseph: I could be wrong, or out of date ;)
03:37<joseph>It's just as bad as the Microsoft FUD that gets slung around.
03:37<amphi>I don't use gnome
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03:38<amphi>or mono
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03:38<joseph>I understand that some distros package mono apps by default alongside gnome.
03:38<joseph>But that is the fault of the distro
03:39<joseph>And AFAIK there isn't a single Mono app that does not have a non-Mono equivalent that is just as good or better.
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03:45<amphi>timeo danaos et dona ferentes ;)
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03:50<cojack>don't kill me, how to register nick on
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03:53<simy>This may not be the best place to ask this but, I'm very fond of this room :) How diffrent is Red Hat from Debian? I'm considering getting cert'ed
03:54<jm_>cojack: /msg nickserv help
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03:55<jm_>simy: it's still Linux, but lots of tools differ
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03:55<simy>jm_ Yeah, Like the new package manager for Debian -- I've never used it, I've used an RPM package system once, but after I used Debian's apt -- I've stayed with APT :)
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03:56<jm_>simy: rpm is on the same level as dpkg, not comparable
03:56<simy>jm_ I've still got alot to learn though
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03:57<joseph>Does default Etch come with any Mono at all?
03:58<simy>jm_ So is it more or less a matter of just a few diffrences? But most of the software is the same or similar? (like nano, netstat, apache, bitchx etc :) )
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03:58<shevek>I'm setting up a simple archive on my computer with mini-dinstall. When running it in batch mode, it says my packages have no override entries. Where can I install an override file to solve that? I can't find anything on override in doc or source (I don't know where the error comes from either, although I didn't look long in the source).
03:58<simy>im debating installing the opensource redhat (i dont remember the name of it anymore) on a spare laptop
03:58<jm_>simy: yeah software is the same, but sometimes some options/default configurations are different
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03:58<jm_>joseph: yes
03:59|-|mode/#debian [+l 308] by debhelper
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03:59<shevek>simy: The difference between distributions in in installation methods, dependency handling, and configuration. Not in the actual software (although Debian has much more available than others, or so I heard).
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04:00<simy>shevek: I remember sombody comming in this room and asking which distro is better, lol (Your last statment just reminded me of that)
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04:00<simy>shevek: Thanks -- More or less gota get used to it I bet -- lots n lots of reading
04:00<shevek>Good idea, going to #debian and asking what's the best distro. :-)
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04:01<simy>I dont get it, You give me a fiction book and I *might* read the first chapter, give me a book on windows, ill laugh for an hour and pass out from laughter, give me a linux book and ill try driving and reading on the basis that i cannot put the book down -- less im near my terminal :)
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04:02<shevek>simy: That might be because you realize that your computer is something you control, and that's a very cool thing. :-)
04:02<joseph>jm_: From default Etch, which program depends on mono?
04:03<simy>and speaking of books (Im sorry for rambling ill leave in a minute im just a bit tired) Whats a good all around book, alot of commands like netstat im not very good at, I'ld like somthing indepth enough to be able to understand and use as a reference later down the road, more or less on basic admin, not so much security (but networking topics could be an entire book too if needed :) ) and -- I'm not sure what I'm asking for....
04:03<simy>shevek: very true:) Plus it dosnt crash when I render a scene with blender
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04:04<jm_>joseph: aptitude, grep-dctrl or dpkg-awk will answer your question
04:04<simy>shevek: Whats really funny is when I worked at MCdonalds this kid kept talking about how he was such a great hacker (working at mcds???) so I gave him my more or less stock laptop and told him there was a file with his name on it, and asked him what it said -- he said hes never seen a screen like that (GDM), what a great 'super hacker' lol
04:05<joseph>jm_: Not in front of my Deb box currently
04:06<yang>weasel: I was looking for a good manual for "lenny raid crypto installation" can you recommend any?
04:06<simy>jm_ What books would you recomend for what you seem to always know =) 'Cause if I knew half as much as you I'ld be content -- for a minute or two
04:06<joseph>Why does Debian ship Mono packages?
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04:08<shevek>simy: I can't help you much with the books. The only one I read was "linux device drivers", which is fine if you want to do kernel hacking, but I don't think you do. ;-) The rest I learned from doing...
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04:09<simy>shevek: I keep forgetting things like netstat -- I have to man it everytime I need to trouble shoot my network, thats no good, lol
04:09<Vakio>simy: maybe you should write your own book.
04:10<jm_>joseph: there's lots
04:10<simy>Vakio I've tried, the results were not pretty, or even understandable (This is comming from the NON-Author who wrote it) I couldnt follow what I wrote, or even understand where I was going with it -- just not one of my gifts
04:10<shevek>simy: I'm using man all the time. As long as you remember what the command is, it's fast enough to look up the syntax/function prototype/whatever you forgot
04:10<jm_>simy: I have no idea what's available
04:10<joseph>jm_: Yes I see :/
04:11<joseph>I wonder why Debian makes the choice to include Mono?
04:11<jm_>why not?
04:11<joseph>Due to the Microsoft tie-ins
04:11<dondelelcaro>joseph: a maintainer cares (or cared) enough about it at one time to include it
04:11<simy>shevek: Well, like I forget what netstat is and it takes tooo long to look it up -- thats just one example, but I did find a site that shows a few commands and a few of their options (I dont really need it to list any usually googling a command can yield some good results)
04:11<joseph>.and whether Microsoft would be able to leverage against Gnome as a result of that
04:11<simy>jm_: Ok, Figured I'ld ask :)
04:12<dondelelcaro>joseph: the political considerations of a package generally aren't considered, so long as its DFSG free and a maintainer wants to maintain it, and a Developer is willing to upload it.
04:12<shevek>simy: There's a debian "cheat sheet" which we hand out at fairs. You might be interested in it. I'll find a link.
04:12<joseph>dondelelcaro: I meant: There should be a Debian policy not to include Mono at all.
04:12<dondelelcaro>joseph: why?
04:12<simy>shevek: That would be great, materials are good:) Fairs where? :)
04:13<joseph>dondelelcaro: There is the question of whether Mono is free of tie-ins with Microsoft....and whether Microsoft would be able to leverage against Debian et al. as a result of that.
04:13<dondelelcaro>joseph: why should microsoft's position on the package influence our decision in any way?
04:13<shevek>Anywhere. I've seen it at FOSDEM in Brussels, but AFAIK it's just something we like to give out. :-)
04:13<simy>If I changed my name to KI4YHE would anybody know what that ment :)
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04:14<shevek>joseph: As long as we don't know, I don't think we should worry. If they start causing problems, or we find out about such tie-ins, we remove the software.
04:14<joseph>dondelelcaro: Not just Microsoft's position...but the tech world uses Mono as a bashing tool
04:14<dondelelcaro>joseph: lots of packages in Debian have ties with lots of commercial entities; many even are developed soly by commercial entities
04:14<dondelelcaro>shevek: the tie ins don't really matter one way or the other
04:14<lupine_85>mono is Free, that's the important bit
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04:15<joseph>lupine: as in beer.
04:15<dondelelcaro>uh, no.
04:15<dondelelcaro>if it's in main, the point is that it's libre, and complies with the DFSG.
04:15<dondelelcaro>if at such time it ceases to comply with the DFSG, it will be removed from main.
04:15<lupine_85>mono r gpl, lgpl and mit
04:15<joseph>dondelelcaro: I know that Debian is willing to defend the point that mono currently complies with the DFSG.
04:16<padski>joseph: the clone everything approach is hard to get your head around. do you want to remove samba ? do you want to exclude all the code coming out of Novell ?
04:16<KI4YHE>shevek: Its Simy I've changed my nick :) Been proud of my ham ticket :)
04:16<KI4YHE>shevek: Did you find that link?
04:16<lupine_85>it's just another rehashing of the original IBM BIOS cloning issue
04:16<joseph>But many users and "techies" do not agree, and use Mono as a FUD bashing tool against Gnome, Debian, etc.
04:16<dondelelcaro>joseph: so then I don't quite understand what the problem is with us distributing it now.
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04:16<shevek>KI4YHE: Not yet, be patient. :-)
04:17<joseph>Well mono has an ick reputation
04:17<petemc>with who?
04:17<lupine_85>joseph: so what?
04:17<KI4YHE>shevek: Just making sure ;)
04:17<joseph>Do you pay attention to tech news sites that run discussions?
04:17<dondelelcaro>joseph: since when have we concerned ourselves with what people who use FUD think?
04:17<joseph>slashdot, osnews, etc
04:17<padski>joseph: or is it just that you (like most of us) find Miguel's enthusiasm for all things microsoft truly scary :-)
04:17<petemc>joseph: you might want to use one of the totally free distros that rms advocates
04:18<dondelelcaro>joseph: some of us read the few diamonds of the discussions in them, and discard the irrelevancies
04:18<lupine_85>petemc: they would include mono too :D
04:18<padski>what does rms say about mono ?
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04:18<dondelelcaro>padski: I don't know if he's expressed an opinion about it, technically, philosophically, or morally.
04:18<joseph>mono sure hasn't won gnome any points
04:19<dondelelcaro>(I'd be surprised if he even uses it)
04:19<dondelelcaro>(or had used it)
04:19<cojack>I'd what is mean?
04:19<dondelelcaro>joseph: you seem to be operating under the misconception that winning "points" is desirable; it's not.
04:19<joseph>"doing the right thing" is paramount, of course
04:20<dondelelcaro>cojack: "I'd" is a contraction for "I would"
04:20<cojack>thx ;)
04:20<shevek>KI4YHE:, link to "Debian GNU/Linux Reference Card" (but you may like the other links as well).
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04:21<padski>dondelelcaro: rms, 2002 "GNOME should certainly support .NET programs and C# programs, using DotGNU by preference since that is a GNU package; supporting Mono as an
04:21<padski>alternative C# implementation would be ok too.". I'm still looking for a recent (post-novell-microsoft-patent-event) quote
04:21<dondelelcaro>joseph: "doing the right thing" is doing what the maintainer/developers wants to do. Hopefully it's excellent technically, but if not, that's fine too; knowledgeable people will just not use it.
04:21<lupine_85>DotGNU? Never hears of it :D
04:22<KI4YHE>shevek: I will most defintly check it out -- I believe im actually there now, or a very similar url... looking
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04:22<joseph>I don't think MS would ever do anything regarding Mono anyhow. IBM would unload on them. It's all just posturing. Unfortunately, many Linux enthusiasts get caught up in the waves and there *is* a popularity contest (even though Debian ostensibly chooses to ignore it).
04:22<KI4YHE>shevek : I was at -- close but no cigar ;P Thanks again!
04:23<padski>rms, 2006: "Mono is a free implementation of Microsoft's language C#. Microsoft has declared itself our enemy and we know that Microsoft is getting patents on some features of C#. So I think it's dangerous to use C#, and it may be dangerous to use Mono. There's nothing wrong with Mono. Mono is a free implementation of a language that users use. It's good to provide free implementations. We should have free implementations of every lang
04:23<padski>uage. But, depending on it is dangerous, and we better not do that."
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04:24<lupine_85>lol, software patents
04:24<padski>I could really be tempted to work on vrms :-)
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04:24<lupine_85>better stop using all infringing software, quick!
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04:26<joseph>padski: Which brings me back to the question of whether Debian should include patent-encumbered software.
04:26<lupine_85>of course it should
04:26<KI4YHE>How can i find out what version of debian im running from a terminal of a system?
04:26<shevek>cat /etc/debian_version
04:27<shevek>Well, in my case it says "lenny/sid", but there isn't much lenny about it...
04:27<joseph>Doesn't the patent-encumbrance take away from the "free as in freedom"
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04:27<KI4YHE>shevek: I knew there was a way, Thankyou!
04:27<joseph>free as in "free speech"
04:27<lupine_85>joseph: no, because software patents are stupid
04:27<joseph>luping: they are the law
04:27<KI4YHE>shevek: I;ve got the same confusion on this laptop :P
04:27<lupine_85>not here, they aren't
04:28<themill>joseph: you can't write a hello world program these days without infringing some troll's software patent. There are just *too many* patents out there to have a chance of finding them all to make sure you're clear, and even if you were clear when you wrote it, someone might claim a patent on that stuff afterwards.
04:28<lupine_85>and did you know the linux kernel violates a bunch of software patents?
04:28<lupine_85>quick! stop using it!
04:28<KI4YHE>shevek: Actually thats EXACTLY what it says ;)
04:28<shevek>joseph: In the US it's probably illegal to distribute any OS at all. In such a case, I think Debian can't actually do anything except ignore it.
04:29<themill>shevek: when the law is an ass, it's everyone's civic duty to ignore it...
04:29<lupine_85>don't forget that debian aids and abets piracy, terrorism and witchcraft
04:29<shevek>KI4YHE: You can check in /etc/apt/sources.list where your packages actually come from
04:29<lupine_85>oh, and pornography
04:29<joseph>aside from patents, couldn't Microsoft argue that Mono violates a license agreement?
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04:29<lupine_85>joseph: they could argue anything
04:30<lupine_85>until it's tested in a court of law, it's all FUD
04:30<joseph>So, why does mono get so much flack?
04:30<lupine_85>because gullible idiots believe the FUS
04:30<KI4YHE>shevek: Well i only asked because my dad screwed up my test web/email server And i was going to upgrade it -- so i just wana know where its at (old stable, old testing/new stable, or new testing)
04:30<joseph>must be the KDE fan boys?
04:30<lupine_85>case in point:
04:31<KI4YHE>shevek: I'll know based on my laptop which is testing, with a tiny bit of stable ;P
04:31<lupine_85>[10:13] <joseph> dondelelcaro: There is the question of whether Mono is free of tie-ins with Microsoft....and whether Microsoft would be able to leverage against Debian et al. as a result of that.
04:31<KI4YHE>shevek: Its been down for awhile, and I only have dialup -- but apparently his going to drop it off (he lives in TN, and I live in VT USA) So its not like i can just go there on my day off and hook it up correctly
04:32<joseph>lupine: I didn't say that was my opinion....I said that there is that question out there. It's something that I am seeing many comments about on tech forums.
04:32<lupine_85>indeed. And there's no factual basis for them
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04:32<Flakk>Hi people I have a basic question which is not actually about debian software but maybe someone could help. My video card has a DVI I out (corresponding to the flat-pin-plus-four-surrounding-pins plugin) I am going to buy a TFT monitor with DVI D cable. Are these two compatible?? thanks in advance
04:32<lupine_85>worst-case scenario, Debian has to re-implement the non-US repo
04:33<lupine_85>they should only go that far if a court orders them to stop distributing mono in the US
04:33<themill>and non-eu and non-de and non-au ...
04:33<lupine_85>software patents aren't valid in the EU
04:33<shevek>lupine_85: Let's hope so. The lobby is working
04:33<themill>don't bet on that....
04:34<cojack>Flakk: IMO yes
04:34[~]lupine_85 places a large bet
04:34[~]cojack afk
04:34<joseph>how do you protect software intellectual property in Europe, if not for patents?
04:34<sep>does any of you have problems with now ?
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04:34<Flakk>cojack : thanks. did u try this?
04:34<lupine_85>go look up what rms says about "intellectual property"
04:34<themill>joseph: intellectual property is a loaded term. don't use it.
04:35<lupine_85>it's one of the few areas where I actually agree fully with him
04:35<shevek>Flakk: The DVI cable has separate pins for analog and digital signals. If you have a video card with only analog output, and a cable which doesn't have analog wires, it's not goint to work
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04:35<cojack>no, I have crt xD
04:35<shevek>Flakk: But if your video card has a DVI connector, it's very likely that it has digital output on it.
04:35<joseph>you do not believe that people are entitled to own their inventions and the products that they create with their minds?
04:35<lupine_85>joseph: I bet you're one of those that like to see genes patented, too
04:36<Flakk>shevek I have a video card with two outputs: vga and DVI I ; going to but a flat screen with DVI D plugin
04:36<shevek>joseph: Actually, I don't. But regardless, what's wrong with copyright as a protection?
04:36<themill>lupine_85: and then there's the strange .de laws that appear to make wireshark and similar illegal, so we'd need a non-de repo too? And the US-AU "free" trade agreement which brings in some strange us laws into .au... it all gets silly very quickly.
04:36<lupine_85>copyright - fine. patents - no
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04:36<lupine_85>themill: heh, I'd forgotton about that
04:36<joseph>I don't get the difference...
04:36<lupine_85>hence why I suggest it as a last resort
04:36<lupine_85>joseph: I know
04:36<shevek>Flakk: I never remember what the letters are. DVI-I is both analog and digital, or only analog?
04:36<lupine_85>maybe you should do some reading
04:37<KI4YHE>joseph, lupine_85, themill: Not that I've kept up the conversation completly but -- is there a point to this back and forth thing?
04:37<joseph>I mean, on the surface I know the difference, but I don't have any real understanding.
04:37<lupine_85>so go get some
04:37<lupine_85>I'm -----> bath
04:37<shevek>joseph: The difference between copyright and patents?
04:38<themill>KI4YHE: I think it's for joseph's benefit that he has the chance to learn more about why free software is important and the philosophy behind it.
04:38<Flakk>shevek as for me that s not that I do not remember but I just never knew... DVI I = 1 flat pin +4 surrounids. DVI D = 1 flat pin
04:38<jm_>Flakk: DVI-I should work yes
04:38<jm_>Flakk: it means digital and analog so it shall work fine with DVD-D monitor
04:38<KI4YHE>themill: Ok -- Just making sure... It sounds like a deadlock thats not going to go anywhere, but I wanted to say somthing -- without adding to it
04:39<shevek>joseph: Patents protect an idea. If someone else gets the same idea, he can't use it. Copyright only protects the specific implementation. You have to prove that the "copier" did indeed take your work and copied it to prove infringement.
04:39<Flakk>jm_ so you say that if I have the DVI I in my comp, I buy the DVI D screen, all will go fine, right?
04:39<themill>shevek: nice summary :)
04:39<jm_>Flakk: yes
04:39<Flakk>jm_ actually the monitor I am going to buy has both vga and DVI outputs
04:39<jm_>Flakk: inputs I hope ;)
04:40<KI4YHE>Flakk & jm_ lol
04:40<Flakk>yeah )) well i mean the cables which stick out of it ))
04:40<Flakk>you know the torches ))
04:40<popeye>do you think the patent office will let me patent my bowel movements, i'd like to have people pay me every time they go to the can
04:40<joseph>shevek: Well how about patents that expire? The FDA implements this. New medicines get a 7 year patent, to allow the company to recoup R&D expense and to make a profit (the driving force in the first place). After 7 years, patent expires, and anyone may use the invention.
04:40<quitte>is there a way to tell reprepr to ignore404 errors when updating or to give it a list of files that should not be included?
04:40<shevek>joseph: In software, the important difference is that with copyright, it's allowed to look at a program and make the same thing, while with patents it isn't
04:40<KI4YHE>popeye: At this rate -- depends on the country
04:40<themill>joseph: have you heard about evergreening of patents?
04:41<lupine_85>7 years is an absolute lifetime in software
04:41<joseph>themill: No, but I can guess what that means.
04:41<themill>joseph: and the FDA does *not* implement that at all. A US patent is valid for much longer than that.
04:41<shevek>joseph: That's the general idea of both copyright and patents. But they expire in 20 years for patents and 110 years (in the US) or 50 years (elsewhere) for copyright. Those are insane periods for software.
04:41<KI4YHE>joseph: I was gona ask you about the extensions, lol
04:41<Flakk>jm_ actually do you say that there are two types of signal: digital and analog? are all CRT analog? and all flat screens digital?
04:42<joseph>For U.S. drugs it is indeed 7 years.
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04:42<shevek>joseph: But I agree, that rapidly expiring patents and copyrights (say 3 or 6 months) might actually be useful.
04:42<jm_>Flakk: no, I am refering to DVI connectors -- (Connector chapter)
04:43<jm_>Flakk: but yeah, I haven't seen CRT monitors with digital connector (not that there can't be one)
04:43<themill>dpkg: patent vs copyright is <reply> Patents protect an idea. If someone else gets the same idea, he can't use it. Copyright only protects the specific implementation. You have to prove that the "copier" did indeed take your work and copied it to prove infringement. A programmer will tell you that all programs are mathematics and you cannot patent mathematics, so what is a software patent?
04:43<dpkg>okay, themill
04:43<KI4YHE>joseph: But can it be exteded? I'm not sure about medicines but some things (Not even sure what) can be patented as long as the pattent is extended, while the idea or concpet behind pattents is that it allows others to be informed and improve upon it to further science (Writting somthing like that was what I read awhile back) hence a private person can make and use somthing, just not sell it, but a company cannot
04:43<shevek>Flakk: But it is true anyway, that the digital and analog signals are different, and that all CRTs are analog. Internally all LCDs are digital, but the older ones don't have a DVI connector.
04:43<lupine_85>also, it's ridiculous to compare the initial outlay of drugs R&D to the initial outlay of software R&D
04:43<jm_>Flakk: some flat screens also have only analog inputs
04:43<lupine_85>they're orders of magnitude apart
04:44<themill>shevek: just taught dpkg your little copyright/patent summary for future reference ;)
04:44<KI4YHE>lupine_85: GP
04:44<Flakk>jm_ so the story of analog/digital is for the connectors, and not for the type of the display?
04:44<shevek>themill: So I saw. Good idea. :-)
04:44<lupine_85>I'm all in favour of software patents that last, say, 3 months?
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04:44<dli__>themill, is algorithm patentable?
04:44<joseph>3 months seems too short, but hey I'm obviously not an expert.
04:44<jm_>Flakk: it matters for both, but you will be fine
04:45<shevek>dli_: The law says no, the patents offices say yes
04:45<KI4YHE>lupine_85: ok, three months from when? release or conceptionn, or what about from when the forms were filed?
04:45<lupine_85>3 months from initial filing of forms, I'd say
04:45<shevek>KI4YHE: In case of copyright (which doesn't need to be registered), publication; in case of patents, registration.
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04:45<Flakk>jm_ Ok thanx
04:45<KI4YHE>lupine_85 then I believe it would be expired before it would be pattented, lol
04:46<Flakk>jm_ by the way what type of screen is better? should I prefer digital or analog one?
04:46<shevek>Flakk: Digital
04:46<KI4YHE>shevek: Well I only said that because IF you were to try to change opnions, you should know that sort of information -- I dont, but politics iritates me enough as it is, ive not inquired much on purpose
04:46<jm_>Flakk: I prefer digital
04:46<joseph>Do you even believe people should be able to make profit from making software?
04:46<shevek>Flakk: Analog signals have intrinsic signal loss in the cable
04:47<KI4YHE>not change opnions, change laws/procedures
04:47<joseph>Do you even believe people should be able to make profit at all?
04:47<popeye>joseph i have you know i bought a yacht selling Ubuntu cds to africans
04:47<Flakk>jm_ OK so basically digital flat screens should be also more expensive?
04:47<themill>dli__: the mathematics of the algorithm is not but the algorithm sometimes can be. But Knuth will tell you that the algorithm can always be reduced to it's mathematics... which is where software patents become a mess.
04:48<jm_>Flakk: no, 21" CRT will cost more than 15" LCD :)
04:48<cojack>jm_: but it's normal...
04:48<Flakk>jm_ no I am talking about the flat screens only
04:48<Flakk>I m going to buy a flat one
04:48<cojack>CRT have to flat screens
04:49<jm_>Flakk: CRT can also be flat
04:49<cojack>what I say.. xD
04:49<Flakk>I mean THIN and flat ))
04:49<joseph>There can be no freedom without a free market. There can be no free market without profit. There can be no profit without.......a way to protect (at least for a limited time) your inventions/innovations/creations.
04:49<Flakk>i mean something which is about 3-5 cm thick
04:49<shevek>Flakk: Flat screens are intrinsically digital. Putting an analog connector on it costs extra in manufacturing. So if you have an LCD screen, you should take a digital one IMO. But there may still be old cheap non-DVI LCD screens being sold. They're cheaper not because analog is easy, but because they were still in stock.
04:49<cojack>I prefer LCD then CRT
04:49<jm_>Flakk: ahh you mean those with digital input? yeah you typically only find analog connectors on cheap LCD monitors
04:50<jm_>Flakk: that is "analog only, no digital" - better models have both
04:50<indraveni>hi all
04:50<KI4YHE>It is a VERY complicated subject, that I believe very few people actually understand
04:50<indraveni>i installed the debian pootle package
04:50<indraveni>I am not knowing where it placed the apache configuration steps
04:50<KI4YHE>joseph: You seem to understand it better then I do
04:50<indraveni>how is it integrating with apache?
04:50<popeye>I think apt-get moo is innovative and I didn't see anyone profit from it
04:51<shevek>joseph: I don't quite agree with you there, but it's too off topic here. :-)
04:51<KI4YHE>popeye: people did... kinda
04:51<cojack>go #oftc xD
04:51<KI4YHE>popeye: I've seen a multi-distro cd selling things, they probibly make 50 cents, and one advantage they cited was "easy to install and upgrade software" or somthing like that
04:51<indraveni>how can i find out where which file is going on ?
04:51<KI4YHE>they made a "tiny" profit
04:52<Flakk>shevek, jm_ wait i am slightly lost. Is it right that any flat, thin monitor what they call TFT or LCD monitor, is digital, ? in this case the fact that it has 2 outputs means they have manages to transform the digital signal to analog
04:52<KI4YHE>popeye: You could still download it directly, the CDs profits I think went to FSF or somthing like that
04:53<jm_>Flakk: yes, and it has inputs, not outputs - it converts analog signal to digital yes
04:53<shevek>Flakk: Yes, except that the transformation is the other way. They transform the analog input to digital.
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04:53<Flakk>shevek Oh yes sorry
04:54<joseph>shevek: Is it off topic? This is #debian....what's debian's big thing they always talk about. Freedom.
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04:54<shevek>joseph: Ok, but not free market, capitalism, communism, etc. At least not AFAIK. :-)
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04:55<shevek>joseph: Anyway, because you insist: the part I don't agree with is that you need a free market for freedom.
04:55<Flakk>jm_ shevek there is apparently also a difference between ACTIVE matrix and PASSIVE matrix monitors. any comments
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04:56<shevek>Flakk: I have no idea what the difference is. I suppose it is about how the pixels are created, but AFAIK it has nothing to do with the signals on the cables.
04:56<jagerman>Wasn't that a debate from 15 years ago?
04:56<joseph>active matrix there is a transistor behind each pixel
04:56<shevek>jagerman: What, the free market or the LCD?
04:57<jagerman>shevek: Passive matrix LCDs
04:57<jm_>yeah modern monitors are no longer passive, but some other devices still use those types of displays
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04:57<popeye>hey does anyone know how to solve sound skipping problems in linux, like is there some alsa config or kernel compile trick to fix it? when i have a video playing in vlc and i max/min a FF window for instance it causes the sound to skip
04:57<jagerman>I recall about 10-15 years ago, notebooks (with 10" screens being considered large) came with either one
04:57<jm_>popeye: tried kernel with CFS scheduler?
04:58<shevek>popeye: What you need is max priority to the sound-playing task
04:58<Flakk>jm_ shevek thanks a lot I think I understand the whole stuff better now
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04:58<popeye>i'm not sure about the kernel, it's stock debian 2.6.22 in unstable
04:58<jm_>yeah 2.6.22 doesn't have CFS
04:58<popeye>is that gonna be in 23
04:59<jagerman>"the pixel must retain its state between refreshes without the benefit of a steady electrical charge."
04:59<shevek>popeye: The conventional linux scheduler isn't very good at priorities, I think. You can try to renice it as root.
04:59<jagerman>That's the key difference
04:59<stager>Hi! I have a strange problem after upgrading from Sarge to Etch... After upgrading from 2.4 kernel to 2.6.8 (as a part of upgrade process) my server starts to freeze. Processor AMD X2 3800+. Previsously used kernel was 686 favour and everything was ok, now 686 and k7 favours all freeze server after several minutes. Problem was solved by adding "nosmp" to boot parameters. Did somebody have similar problems?
04:59<popeye>i think ill just wait and see if 2.6.23 makes it better
04:59<koollman>stager: do you have some custom modules ?
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05:00<popeye>just seems kinda G that sound skips after all these years, in fairness it usually does it with the lame proprietary flash player that eats up 99% of my cpu when i run it
05:00<stager>koolman: no - clean kernel packages and I forgot to say that I have nForce4 Ultra chipset
05:01<shevek>I'm building a live system (with live-helper), and it says "lgg-optreden: Depends: texlive-latex-base which is a virtual package." (lgg-optreden is a local package). Eh, huh? No it isn't! How can I tell it this?
05:01<stager>With nosmp it works ok, but I want to use smp, since server is at heavy load...
05:01<shevek>Oh forget about it, I found the problem.
05:01<jagerman>stager: Um, shouldn't etch's kernel be more like 2.6.18-something?
05:01<Knight_Lord>Where can I find a documentation about how to build a kernel in debian?
05:02<shevek>Knight_Lord: kernel-package can help you with it, there might be some documentation with it as well.
05:02<stager>jagerman: my mistake - of course it is 2.6.18
05:02<joseph>shevek: I'm not surprised: Europeans have a strange conception of Freedom. ;)
05:03<stager>and what is sad that it just freeze - no kernel panic, no anything in logs :(
05:03<Knight_Lord>shevek because none of the documentation I find doesn't refer mkinitramfs
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05:03<jagerman>stager: Have you tried linux-image-2.6.18-4-amd64?
05:03<shevek>joseph: The point is that the free market, when used too rigidly, will actually degrade freedom of the general public IMO.
05:03<Knight_Lord>shevek i could only find old documentation
05:03<popeye>seems to me that the freedom to use published ideas would override some dude's freedom to make money, i mean in an ideally free society at least
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05:04<stager>jaggerman: my boss want to use 32-bit system at server :(
05:04<jagerman>shevek: Indeed it will--one of the most important economic roles of government is to intervene to counteract market failures.
05:04<shevek>popeye: "Freedom to make money" as in "Freedom to take money from other people". That's not a freedom I want to provide in general.
05:04<jagerman>stager: That's okay, it'll still be a 32 bit system
05:05<popeye>yeah thanks for clarifying shevek
05:05<jagerman>stager: the amd64 kernel can run a 32 bit system just fine
05:05<shevek>popeye: :-)
05:05<joseph>shevek: How is freedom to make money in any way connected to freedom to take money from other people?
05:05<stager>jaggerman: Hm, thanks - I'll try to install it... Thanks again!
05:05<jagerman>stager: It may not help your problem, of course, but I suppose it's worth a try
05:06<shevek>joseph: If people claim that the fact that other people can use their ideas interferes with their freedom to make money, they're talking nonsense. It interferes with their idea of how they wanted to make money, not with their freedom.
05:07<shevek>I'm fine with the freedom to make money. But if it doesn't work, that doesn't mean the freedom is limited.
05:07<stager>jagerman: I understand that it may not help, thanks anyway ;)
05:08<jagerman>The economics of open source software has been buzzing through my head for a while as a future economics paper.
05:09<popeye>i barely use any proprietary software, i think all i have on here is the nvidia graphics driver and some old DOS games i run in an emulator
05:09<shevek>And I don't think the society must always be structured such that it is possible to make money. In particular, I don't think we need an incentive to be creative. Removing the legal threats (by abandoning copyright and patents) might actually be more productive for generating more creative works.
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05:09<jagerman>shevek: It would not.
05:10<jagerman>Software patents are a bit silly, of course
05:10<shevek>jagerman: How do you know?
05:10<jagerman>But patents in other areas are very important
05:10<popeye>well isnt software just some math formula ultimately, although when you think about it almost anything can be expressed as math
05:10<jagerman>Without patent protection, there is no reason to put the investment into very expensive development
05:10<joseph>shevek: You should own the labor of your mind. In this sense, it's no different than the ownership that you receive from the product of your physical labors.
05:10<shevek>jagerman: There is. People like to be creative. They want to invent thing.
05:11<jagerman>shevek: Let's take a drug that costs, say, $1 billion to develop, test, get approved for use, etc.
05:11<jagerman>People don't like to be creative if it will cost them $1 billion with no hope of even breaking even.
05:12<popeye>well nobody is creative in a vaccuum, i mean to be fair shouldnt the rest of society, who props up those who invent stuff, have as much a say in its use since without them nothing could be invented
05:12<shevek>joseph: With patents it is. If I create a chair, then when someone takes that away I no longer have it. That's a problem. But when someone else likes it and builds one for himself (or in case of software, copies it), I don't suffer.
05:12<shevek>jagerman: For such things it would be possible to set up funding. Lots of research is funded by governments. That's not impossible at all.
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05:12<jagerman>In other words, software is non-rivalrous.
05:13<petemc>is that a word?
05:13<jagerman>shevek: It isn't a question of possibility, it's a question of efficiency.
05:13<shevek>jagerman: I'm not saying abandoning copyright and patents is necessarily a good idea. But it might be. I'm not so sure if they're a net positive on society. They certainly do have negative sides.
05:13<jagerman>shevek: Tinkering with, rather than eliminating, seems like a better approach.
05:14<jagerman>It is very easy to make a good argument for shortening copyright
05:14<shevek>jagerman: Maybe. Certainly as a first approach. Making small changes with the option of reverting them is always good.
05:14<jagerman>(Lessig's book Free Culture is a good read on that topic)
05:14<popeye>copyright and patents werent intended to last forever like they do now, i think the founders said that was an awful idea
05:14<jagerman>popeye: They *don't* last forever.
05:14<popeye>i guess patents dont
05:15<popeye>although copyrights seem to
05:15<jagerman>Though copyright seems to be continually extended
05:15<popeye>i think steamboat willy is still under copyright
05:15<shevek>popeye: Here in Europe we don't care as much for the founders as you do, and I heard that at some point copyrights did really last forever (according to the law). But most people agree now that that's not a good idea, indeed.
05:15<popeye>and that came out in like the 20s i think
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05:16<popeye>well i guess it depends on what the purpose of copyrights and patents are: are they for making people rich, or for encouraging creativity
05:16<jagerman>Why are those mutually exclusive?
05:16<shevek>popeye: The US is extending copyright, and not only for new works. They do indeed intend to keep doing that, so you guys seem to have ever-lasting copyrights. But the rest of the world doesn't agree, I think. :-)
05:17<popeye>yeah, sorry, we in the US sometimes forget that our laws dont extend to all other nations
05:17<popeye>we're working on that
05:17<shevek>jagerman: In case they are, there are choices to be made. And they are, because it's easier to be creative with a large public domain, and you don't get that with everlasting copyrights.
05:17<jagerman>popeye: Everything copyrighted since 1923 is still under copyright.
05:17<shevek>popeye: Actually, according to your laws, I think they do. ;-)
05:18<joseph>popeye: other way of the world is working on extending their law onto us.
05:18<jagerman>shevek: Well, my point is basically that you really should allow people to profit from their creativity, because that encourages creativity.
05:18<shevek>popeye: AFAIK the US is the only country in the world which claims jurisdiction over non-citizens which are also not inside the country.
05:19<jagerman>If people have to choose between being creative and penniless, or having a paying job, you diminish the amount of creativity that can occur
05:19<popeye>didnt we get that dude who circumvented DVD encryption when he came over here, and he wasnt a US citizen
05:19<shevek>jagerman: That's a point. But making it easy to be creative also does that. And having no fear for litigation helps enormously on that front. So the question is which is stronger, and so what gives more creative works in the end. I don't know the answer...
05:20<shevek>jagerman: Of course you need to make sure your people have enough money and time to be creative if they want to. That doesn't mean they have to get the money from the creativity. And even if they do, that doesn't mean they need to "own" ideas.
05:21<jagerman>If they are allowed to specialize in their field of creativity, they will likely be better at it.
05:21<joseph>I don't want the government "making sure" that I have enough money and time to be creative.
05:21<popeye>so who owns the idea of owning ideas anyway, id like to meet that guy
05:22<jagerman>That patent is long expired :)
05:23<popeye>well that didnt stop microsoft from patenting double clicking in like 2004
05:23<shevek>joseph: Why not? The government should keep the people happy, and a very good way to do that is allowing them to do what they like.
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05:23<joseph>shevek: the government should keep the people happy? no thanks....maybe in Europe but not here in America.
05:24<shevek>joseph: That's your problem then. :-)
05:24<joseph>"allowing them to do what they like"
05:24<shevek>joseph: They need money for that, you know? ;-)
05:25<popeye>im not sure what a strict libertarian would think about copyrights and such, on one hand they might be for it if they take the "ideas are property" stance, but if they dont think that holds up then they would be for the copying of information as a basic freedom, just like speech etc
05:25<popeye>maybe, im really tired
05:25<joseph>popeye: If you want to know, read Atlas Shrugged. This will illustrate the strict libertarian position very well.
05:26<popeye>is that book copyrighted
05:26<popeye>well i already know the author's position, then
05:26<shevek>Is libertarianism actually something that has a big following in the US?
05:26<popeye>unless it's like the FDL or something
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05:26<joseph>popeye: Your loss!
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05:27<popeye>i dont think most americans know what libertarianism means, including me
05:27<joseph>shevek: Yes, libertarianism has a large following in the US. But, not as a political party all on it's own. The principles of libertarianism are integrated mostly into the Republican party.
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05:27<shevek>From what I know of it, I think everyone I know would consider everyone who seriously believes in it completely crazy. But I don't know that much about it. :-)
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05:28<joseph>shevek: I'm sure it would seem that way from the viewpoint of a socialist European.
05:28<shevek>joseph: That would be me. :-)
05:28<boggy>political philosophy that upholds the principle of individual liberty and stuff :P
05:28<joseph>who believes that the government should "allow the people to do things"
05:29<boggy>the government does allow people to do things.. in moderation and under laws ofcorse but they do.
05:29<shevek>joseph: I see the country as a big club, and the government is the board. They do things for the people. If the people want things, they can either do it via the board, or just do it by themselves of course.
05:29<boggy>shevek, the government does whatever they want constantly
05:30<boggy>well the american government anyway
05:30<shevek>boggy: The government isn't "they". They're "us". At least in theory. :-)
05:30<boggy>no, they're suits and we're just numbers
05:31<shevek>boggy: The more I know about politics, the less I trust them. But in theory they do what we want. That's why it's democracy.
05:31<boggy>but the whole system is still corrupt
05:31<shevek>Yes, unfortunately it is.
05:31<joseph>it's the least bad form of government that has ever existed in the history of civilization
05:32<boggy>are constatutional rights do not exist except for the 5th
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05:32<shevek>boggy: Which is what?
05:32<boggy>some how some way each right is voided out by a law
05:32<boggy>forsay freedom of speech
05:32<joseph>boggy: our Rights exist in-and-of-themselves; totally seperate from any document, creed, or manifesto.
05:32<boggy>if i go tell a cop to fuck off.. or even have a bumper sticker that says fuck off i can get a disorderly
05:33<boggy>but still think about it.. they have blimps and helicopters with inferred camera's and crazy sound devices spying on the public constantly.. home land security is FUCKED
05:34<boggy>its just not cool =/
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05:34<joseph>Not true either.
05:34<shevek>boggy: Watch what you're saying, we're being monitored. ;-)
05:34<boggy>very true
05:34<boggy>youtube that shit
05:34<boggy>loose change 2.0
05:34<boggy>these blimps are funded
05:34<boggy>by the cops
05:34<boggy>i have 3 in NJ
05:35<boggy>and NY has tons
05:35<joseph>So you are against laws and law enforcement. Anarchist?
05:35<boggy>not at all
05:35<boggy>im against homeland security
05:35<boggy>what they're doing is invasion of privacy
05:35<popeye>guys lets trigger echelon by talking smack about the new world order
05:35<boggy>and we didnt vote for that crap
05:35<joseph>Providing for the common defense is a duty of the Federal government. It's in the Constitution.
05:36<boggy>common defense doesnt mean spy
05:36<shevek>They're not defending. They're just using it as an excuse to spy on everyone.
05:36<joseph>That's not true.
05:36<joseph>"spying on everyone"
05:36<shevek>Well, except themselves maybe. ;-)
05:36<boggy>everyone is not possible
05:36<boggy>but they try
05:36<joseph>No, they don't
05:36<boggy>sure they do
05:37<popeye>all i know is that they won't say what they're up to for "security reasons" and so i have no idea if they're using their powers in a good way or if they're abusing it
05:37<petemc>this conversation appears to have veered off topic
05:37<boggy>u know how many camera's
05:37<boggy>are on NJ buildings?
05:37<boggy>they watch EVERYTHING
05:37<boggy>its sad
05:37<shevek>petemc: I was told Debian was about freedom, so it can't be. ;-)
05:37<joseph>What is the problem with cameras watching public areas?
05:38<shevek>joseph: How is that not spying on people?
05:38<boggy>not just areas
05:38<popeye>debian will be about slavery when lenny releases
05:38<boggy>almost every stop light
05:38<joseph>Because there is no expectation of privacy in a public area.
05:38<boggy>records ur license plate
05:38<lupine_85></splash> lol capitalist propaganda
05:38<joseph>This is all public information.
05:38<boggy>well thats fuckin gay
05:38<shevek>joseph: There is. I expect to be able to walk out of my house without being followed.
05:38<boggy>u must be a republican
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05:38<petemc>boggy: you have a problem with homosexuals?
05:39<popeye>there are a lot of different republicans
05:39<boggy>no wonder why u support this crap and have no problem with it
05:39<popeye>i dont think its possible to lump them all with big brother lovers
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05:39<joseph>You shouldn't have that expectation. Anyone in public can follow you or watch you in public.
05:39<popeye>a lot of them hate that stuff
05:39<boggy>republicans are shit bags :P
05:39|-|BestSteve [] has joined #debian
05:39<boggy>so are dems but we arn't that bad
05:39<lupine_85>yay, offtopic hive mind mentality
05:39<joseph>Taking the low road, eh boggy?
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05:39<shevek>joseph: Sure. But that doesn't mean it's just fine to set up a system which actually does that. To everyone. Without suspecting them of a crime.
05:39<boggy>tellin u how it is
05:39<boggy>republicans are pieces of shit
05:39<boggy>hands down
05:39|-|jm_ [] has joined #debian
05:40<boggy>the usa has never been in shittyer times
05:40<boggy>than when a repub ran office
05:40<joseph>Sure, whatever you say there.
05:40<boggy>prove me wrong
05:40<joseph>It's okay. You still have time to get a clue.
05:40<joseph>Have a nice life there, buddy.
05:40<popeye>linux users are terrorists since they use treasonous software written by chinese people instead of paying properly for proprietary software written by hard working americans
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05:41<boggy>do u use linux popeye ?
05:41<lupine_85>ITC: YHBT ?
05:41<popeye>i guess im a terrorist
05:41<boggy>then your a terrorist to
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05:41<popeye>no i only use Windows Vista Ultimate
05:41<boggy>does using linux in vmware count?
05:41<jagerman>s/your/you're/ && s/to/too/
05:41<boggy>technicly im on solaris
05:41<dli__>popeye, haha :) perfectly non-chinese
05:42<popeye>my bro put vista on his box and his games ran 2x as slow as xp ran the, and he was like "fuck this shit"
05:42|-|prog [] has joined #debian
05:42<popeye>i guess all the new features are to make sure you arent copying some kanye west cd without permission
05:42<jagerman>But Vista is 3 times better!
05:42<boggy>maybe someone should've pre-warned him
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05:43<popeye>his university offered it for "free" to students, but the real deal is that they are paying for it through some student tech fee
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05:43<popeye>so to go to college he has to give microsoft money, which really made his day when i told him that
05:43<boggy>most computer companys are now offering n' xp downgrade
05:43<mikkelorz>heya is it possible to merge 2 kernel configurations into one?
05:43<boggy>with newer machines
05:43<boggy>so i've read on slashdot
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05:44<lupine_85>mikkelorz: you could diff the two .config files, I guess
05:44<mikkelorz>automatically ofc ;) dont want to spend 5 hours going over it
05:44<boggy>mikkelorz sure, wouldn't advise it unless ur going to build it yourself
05:44<mikkelorz>diff you say
05:44<lupine_85>I don't see how you could make it all happen automagically
05:44<boggy>aight breakfast time im out
05:45<boggy>later guys
05:45<lupine_85>how is $merge_program supposed to know which option to use where there's a conflict?
05:45<dli__>lupine_85, comment it out :)
05:45<lupine_85>yes, but which one does it choose to comment out? and why?
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05:46<lupine_85>unless you know of an automagic best-kernel-options parser
05:46<mikkelorz>yeah that might be a problem
05:47<lupine_85>so diff the two files, then go through the diff and make the choice yourself
05:47<dli__>lupine_85, if option A is mentioned in one or the same in both, keep it, otherwise, comment it out
05:47<shevek>If you have a "default" setting (all no, for example) and diff both configs to that, then apply both diffs to the default, I think it should sort-of work.
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05:47<lupine_85>dli__: so exclude all conflicting options? Which you'd then have to set manually? Doesn't sound very automatic to me ;)
05:48<mikkelorz>hm guess it's down to manual again
05:48<Iconsumed>When I run /etc/rc2.d/S19hpoj setup is says *** Found "HP LaserJet 1018" but failed to communicate with it!
05:49<Iconsumed>Starting the HP OfficeJet Linux driver.
05:49<Iconsumed> No hpoj devices have been configured.
05:49<Iconsumed> As root, run "/etc/rc2.d/S19hpoj setup".
05:49<dpkg>Please do not paste anything at all to this channel. Instead, use: or or for pics.
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05:49<dli__>Iconsumed, is hpoj deprecated?
05:49<Iconsumed>now it does print after doing this, but I have to redo the thing after reboot
05:49|-|gregshallard [] has joined #debian
05:50<gregshallard>hey guys
05:50<Iconsumed>dli__: don't know what that means
05:50<dli__>Iconsumed, you may try "ptal-init setup"
05:50<lupine_85>and, why are you using hpoj and not hplip/hpijs ?
05:50<gregshallard>does vncviewer require a desktop environment on the remote server?
05:50<Iconsumed>should I be using hplip/hpijs instad?
05:50<lupine_85>oh, and have you bothered trying the command it told you to run?
05:51<dli__>Iconsumed, yes, hpoj is deprecated
05:51<shevek>gregshallard: No, just a vnc server. It may be without a real display.
05:51<gregshallard>thanks shevek.
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05:52<Iconsumed>dli__: ok, they are all installed, how do I configure them instead?
05:52<kerneld>I hear twm is all the rage gregshallard :P
05:52<Iconsumed>*uninstalls hpoj*
05:52<kerneld>will need an x environment for vnc server
05:53<Iconsumed>lupine_85: yes that's the command I pasted earlier
05:53<dli__>Iconsumed, they should be started auto, you can simply configure your printers in cups (http://localhost:631)
05:54<Iconsumed>so I just uninstall hpoj and everything should work out fine?
05:54<dli__>Iconsumed, better to: /etc/init.d/hplip restart
05:54<gregshallard>kerneld.... :P!
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05:55<mzhang>If I am to load a module at boot with an option, should I ONLY put the module name in /etc/modules while putting the option line in /etc/modules.conf? Thanks.
05:56<Iconsumed>ok, I'll try to reboot
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05:56<pradeepvglughyd>how to install HP 1020 laser printer in debian
05:56<dli__>mzhang, still up?
05:56<mzhang>dli__: yes...
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05:57<dli__>mzhang, you put the modules in /etc/modules: <module> <options> , one line for each
05:58<mzhang>dli__: thanks got it.
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05:59<mzhang>dli__: I am out, byebye.
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06:00<gregshallard>So why debian?
06:01<themill>!why debian
06:01<dpkg> or
06:01<themill>gregshallard: is that want you were wanting?
06:02<Snapser>I think my laptop has memory issues :(
06:02<gregshallard>themill yup.
06:02<Snapser>Mem: 905176k total, 889072k used, 16104k free, 121148k buffers
06:02<themill>Snapser: give it some Alzheimers pills then
06:02<dli__>Snapser, hardware? try memtest86
06:02<Snapser>no, software
06:02<gregshallard>But I really just wanted some user opinions now.
06:03<themill>Snapser: your memory is usually completely used up under linux, it caches stuff in memory in case it is useful one day.
06:03<Snapser>nothing appears to be eating the memory, even if I calculate everything
06:03<dli__>Snapser, what's the problem? 896MB available
06:03<Snapser>889072k used
06:04<Snapser>16104k free
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06:04<dli__>Snapser, how much physical memory there?
06:04<themill>Snapser: the disk cache will take a fair bit. Look at the amount of swap being used not the amount of memory being used.
06:04<Snapser>swap: 50mb used
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06:05<themill>Snapser: and when I say a fair bit, I mean "everything it can" in an effort to speed up access
06:05|-|dpkg [] has joined #debian
06:05<dpkg>thanks, themill. It's good to be back.
06:05<jm_>!free memory
06:05<dpkg>Unlike information, your computer's memory does *not* want to be free. Free RAM is wasted RAM! Linux caches files from disk in RAM for performance gains, and will release the RAM if programs need it.
06:05<Snapser>I see
06:06<jm_>!free ram
06:06<dpkg>Most modern operating systems try aggressively to use free physical memory for disk caching, but release it when actually needed by programs. If you want to know how much physical memory the free(1) tool says you have left for program use, it's 'free' + 'buffers' + 'cache'.
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06:25<Aciid>aint a anime channel lol
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06:28<gregshallard>Whats a good room just to have random discussions on?
06:28<dpkg>extra, extra, read all about it, anime is similar to manga but animated!
06:28<Snapser>Do I have to use pastebin for two lines?
06:28<Snapser>(or whatever I needs to paste)
06:28<Snapser>I try to use cp to copy directories, and I keep getting the message: "cp: omitting directory `/media/Storage/Video/Anime/Chobits/'"
06:30<amphi>Snapser: -R
06:30<Aciid>/dev/random is also good
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06:33<snaj>anybody using racoon ?
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06:38<gregshallard>How do I open up tightvncserver to accept a remote connection in a CLI?
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06:41<nightmare>hay alll
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06:41<nightmare>i have troubles configuring my win modem (conexant). How should i do it. I use Knoppix 5.0.1
06:42<dpkg>Knoppix is _not_ Debian. Seek Knoppix help in freenode's #knoppix. Knoppix is a live CD distro which is <based on Debian>, useful as a rescue CD, to test hardware, and for situations where you have access to a computer but it isn't Debian. unoffical:
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06:43|-|Zagiox123 changed nick to cloud
06:43<dpkg>it has been said that hurd is a POSIX compatible collection of servers that run on the GNU Mach microkernel, it is the core of the GNU system, see, or a HIRD of Unix-Replacing Daemons. for Debian GNU/Hurd or /join #hurd on
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06:44<nightmare>but if it was Debian how am i suppose to do it
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06:45<gregshallard>How do I open up tightvncserver to accept a remote connection in a CLI?
06:46<kerneld>gregshallard: Been a while I think I used xinit commandlines to specify which server to exec -- Xvnc
06:46<kerneld>gregshallard: You need to set up a vnc passwd file too
06:47<gregshallard>I set up the vnc passwd
06:47<kerneld>pretty sure the docs dir and a listing of the /bin dir for the vncserver package will give some clues
06:47<gregshallard>I'm trying to get my head around using command line more, so this a quite interesting.
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06:48<gregshallard>I've been using ubuntu for a while, so I thought I'd just install a skeleton system and only put in the stuff I want (what I'm doing now)
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06:50<kerneld> tightvncserver - a X server for Virtual Network Computing
06:50<kerneld>from the tightvncserver manpage looks like what you want
06:51<gregshallard>Yeah I'm on the man page now
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06:53<gregshallard>I've opened up a desktop for it to connect to
06:53<gregshallard>Whats the default config for ports on debian after a fresh install?
06:54<jm_>no such thing
06:54<kerneld>what ports?
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06:54<kerneld>it looks for next avail X display and uses corresponding vnc display by default I think
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06:55<gregshallard>ok then
06:57<miksuh>any idea what has happened to
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06:57<miksuh>web site looks like that and repository does not work
06:57<jm_>use a mirror
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06:58<Vakio>miksuh: looks like what? I see the normal front page.
06:58<miksuh>Vakio: I don't
06:59<Vakio>miksuh: "With the new acroread packages, the repository has reached the bandwidth limit for this month (1.6TB), so my site will certainly be closed today or tomorrow. See you the 1 October :)"
06:59<miksuh>Vakio: probably your proxy still contains the normal page
06:59<miksuh>I don't use proxy
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07:00<miksuh>Vakio: I can't see that either
07:00<miksuh>are you using mirror or main site?
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07:01<Vakio>miksuh: I don't use a proxy either. And that piece of news is dated today, so it's not from my cache.
07:02<miksuh>here forwards to:
07:02|-|E0x [] has joined #debian
07:02<miksuh>Vakio: maybe your ISP then has somekind of proxy anyway
07:03<miksuh>trabsparent proxy
07:03|-|kill [~kill@] has left #debian []
07:03<miksuh>I'll take a screenshot
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07:10<gregshallard>greg@greg-laptop:~$ vncviewer
07:10<gregshallard>VNC viewer version 3.3.7 - built Mar 8 2007 21:56:52
07:10<gregshallard>Copyright (C) 2002-2003 RealVNC Ltd.
07:10<gregshallard>Copyright (C) 1994-2000 AT&T Laboratories Cambridge.
07:10<gregshallard>See for information on VNC.
07:10|-|gregshallard kicked [#debian] debhelper [use the paster bot or #flood]
07:10|-|gregshallard [] has joined #debian
07:10<gregshallard>Thats the readout I got!
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07:11<miksuh>that's a page I got first, now I get page with login to webmail??
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07:13<gregshallard>Anyone get that?
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07:16<miksuh>that's that webmail page
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07:17<Snapser>please state what your troubles with Debian are, miksuh
07:17<miksuh>look at thopse screenshots :)
07:17<Snapser>please state what your troubles with Debian are, miksuh
07:17<miksuh>I have not problem with debian
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07:18<yang>gregshallard: !paste
07:18<dpkg>Please do not paste anything at all to this channel. Instead, use: or or for pics.
07:18<gregshallard>Thanks yang.
07:18<miksuh>but repo does not work and I get weird pages if I go to it's web page
07:19<yang>gregshallard: what do you want to suceed?
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07:19<gregshallard>Just getting the connection the tightvncserver
07:19<gregshallard>I opened it up on the server, but I'm still getting connection refused, and I've set the passwd
07:19<gregshallard>vncviewer: ConnectToTcpAddr: connect: Connection refused
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07:20<yang>gregshallard: it usually listens on some ports
07:20<yang>gregshallard: you should add ip:port at the end
07:21<gregshallard>at the server end?
07:21<yang>no at the client
07:21<yang>just start it with vncviewer
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07:21<yang>and you will set ip and port later in the query
07:22<yang>i think default is 5801 could be also 5802
07:22<yang>check with netstat -plont to see which port it grabbed
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07:25<sandry>ay alguien o k ????
07:25|-|alexoulu [] has joined #debian
07:25<alexoulu>hi there
07:25<zobel>!tell sandry .es
07:25<sandry>k ablassk ablas xalao
07:25<sandry>one and two
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07:26<cojack>k wypierdalaj k?
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07:26<alexoulu>hablais espanol?
07:26<dpkg>Hispanohablantes: Por favor usen #debian-es, alli obtendran mas ayuda. Spanish Speakers: Please use #debian-es, there you will get much more help.
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07:26<sandry>k pasa kolegui????
07:26<sandry> tais xalao to
07:26<gregshallard>yang thanks
07:26<alexoulu>hablo en ingles
07:27<sandry>abla en español xalaos
07:27<zobel>sandry: hey, that channles is english
07:27<yang>gregshallard: :)
07:27<alexoulu>I need some help
07:27<dpkg>If you have a question, just ask! For Example: "I have a problem with ___; I'm running Debian version ___. when I try to do ___ I get the following output ___. I expected it to do ___." Don't ask if you can ask, or if anyone uses it, or pick one person to ask (ask the whole channel!). We're all volunteers; make it easy for us to help you. If you don't get an answer, ask later or ask
07:27<sandry>ixa po adio k sois mu raros to rrrrrrrrrrr
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07:27<gregshallard>I'm just talking to a few people at once so I haven't had a chance to try it yet tho! :(
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07:27<alexoulu>I can't figure out why dc++ on linux can't perform as same speed as windows dc++, what do i need to configure to make it downloading at max speed?
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07:28<cojack>max speed it's your max download your internet
07:28<alexoulu>that's what i meant
07:28<cojack>and max speed of download is a max upload from the other person who you download
07:28<alexoulu>internet works well, but dc++ can t download so well
07:28<alexoulu>i know man, of course
07:29|-|mode/#debian [+l 317] by debhelper
07:29<cojack>so you can't have alltimes max speed download lol
07:29<alexoulu>yep but the thing is
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07:29<cojack>is ?
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07:29<cojack>You can try to P2M
07:29<alexoulu>i noticed that using the same connection on windows, i download straight away everything at max speed (if there are enough shared files)
07:30<alexoulu>is it same kind of peer to peer client?
07:30<alexoulu>what is it?
07:30<cojack>it's a download form e-mail boxes
07:30<alexoulu>ah ah ah
07:31<cojack>yup ;]
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07:32<cojack>This was all what I know, the last things it's the prg what You have use is some buged
07:32<alexoulu>by the way
07:32<alexoulu>do u know any pdf to word converter for linux?
07:32<cojack>not right now
07:33<alexoulu>ok thanks anyway for the help man
07:33<cojack>wait a second, just looked on google
07:33<dondelelcaro>alexoulu: pdftotext or similar
07:33<dondelelcaro>(though that assumes your pdf actually has text, and isn't a tiff or something)
07:33<cojack>lol write pdf to doc on linux xD
07:33<alexoulu>but does it actually convert it to a word/open office document or just txt. Because i ve used some prog like that and they are useless for what i need to do
07:34<dondelelcaro>alexoulu: uh.. they just convert to text; what in the world are you actually trying to do?
07:34<cojack>Adobre Reader 7.0 for linux have save as text ;)
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07:35<alexoulu>I ve a pdf with a big document written in a special format, with tables and so on
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07:35<alexoulu>i was wondering if there was smt for linux too
07:36<cojack>ABC Amber PDF Converter
07:36<cojack>for linux
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07:36<dondelelcaro>alexoulu: and what are you trying to do with it?
07:37<alexoulu>i need to add this file
07:37<alexoulu>in the word document
07:38<alexoulu>keeping exact the same format
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07:38<dondelelcaro>best of luck, then.
07:38<alexoulu>it's an official document about TIR system
07:39<cojack>beter it'll be if some your friend use some program from windshit
07:39<cojack>yeah, it's not funny
07:39<alexoulu>yeah, i m actually trying to abandon windows forever...
07:39<alexoulu>that s why i m here
07:39<alexoulu>trying to learn
07:40<cojack>but remeber that: on linux is not so much software like on windshit
07:40<alexoulu>and i ve to say that the latest versions of Debian are much more user friendly
07:40<cojack>and you have to accept that if you want to stay here
07:40<alexoulu>i remember many years ago
07:40<alexoulu>it was just consolle
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07:40<gregshallard>GRRR!!! still not working.
07:41<Vakio>alexoulu: you could try pdftohtml and then open the html file in OpenOffice.
07:42<alexoulu>Vakio: mmm, good one!
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07:42<alexoulu>thank u
07:42<Vakio>alexoulu: but it might kill your precious formating :P
07:42<alexoulu>i need to keep the same format
07:42<Vakio>alexoulu: try it.
07:42<alexoulu>maybe i could make it a jpeg
07:42<alexoulu>and then add it to the word
07:42<alexoulu>but it would take a while
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07:45<alexoulu>good man :D
07:45<quitte>is there a debian-multimeda mirror i could use?
07:46<alexoulu>what is the name of the packets sources config file?
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07:50<alexoulu>thank u quitte :)
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07:53<alexoulu>do u know how it should be done this config file etc/apt/sources.list ?
07:53<alexoulu>what sources?
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07:53<Vakio>alexoulu: man sources.list
07:54<alexoulu>thank u again Vakio
07:54<cojack>nano /etc/apt/sources.list :P
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07:54<alexoulu>I'm sorry to ask so many things...but i decided I ll switch to linux from now on, so I m really decided to learn much more about it
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07:55<Vakio>quitte: did you find a debian-multimedia mirror yet? There's a list of them on the web site.
07:55<cojack>good luck and stay with your mind
07:56<alexoulu>thanks man, i need to...
07:57<quitte>Vakio: the website is down, unfortunatey
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07:57<Vakio>quitte: you want a German mirror?
07:58<quitte>Vakio: yes, great.
07:58<Vakio>quitte: deb stable main
07:58<Vakio>quitte: (and the same with deb-src)
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08:04<Knight_Lord>Has anyone used lustre with debian?
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08:16<jirka>hello all, could somebody recommend me any way to burn files greater than 4GB pls?
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08:23<DeFender1031>hi, my friend recently installed debian lenny, and mplayer is for swome reason not resizing the image along with the window, just black borders
08:23<DeFender1031>what might be causeing that?
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08:28<Snapser>DeFender1031, What video output driver is been used?
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08:29<DeFender1031>no idea... i told him to come talk to you directly, he refused
08:29<Snapser>in the preferences dialog of mplayer, under the Video tab
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08:34<DeFender1031>ok, i'm not doing this for him
08:35<DeFender1031>i'll tell him to join
08:35<Snapser>why doesn't he want to join?
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08:35<DeFender1031>because he can be stubborn for no reason sometimes
08:36<DeFender1031>yeah, he does that to people
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08:39<Kylex>hello everyone
08:40<Kylex>does anyone have time to help me with my debian etch installation?
08:40<Snapser>what is wrong with it?
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08:41<Kylex>I'm currently facing two problems, first problems occurs while installing the additional packets (Desktop and Standard).
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08:41<Kylex>at around 70% I get the error that "uswsusp" says my swap-partition ist not active
08:42<Kylex>sry, i'm not that fast in writing :)
08:42<Kylex>he asks me if I want to continue without "uswsusp" which would be ok for me , since I don't need suspsend to ram that much
08:42<Snapser>are you using a custom partition layout?
08:43<stager>jagerman: Thanks for the idea to install amd64 kernel (I had a problem with a system freeze) - I've installed amd64 kernal and system works ok. Thanks again...
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08:43<Kylex>well i used a custom partition layout for 2 times, currently i'm using a made-by-installer partition layout with swap and main-partition
08:43<Kylex>still the same problem
08:44<Snapser>how big is the swap?
08:44<Kylex>he made it 200mb
08:44<Kylex>i dont think i need a swap that much because i got 3 gb ram, but since uswsusp needs it, i made a swap
08:45|-|ams [~ams@k102svesh.FSV.CVUT.CZ] has joined #debian
08:45<Kylex>but thats not so important to me, i just wanted to give the information because it may cause the other problem which occurs after, i dont know.
08:45<Kylex>the problem is that i can not install grub nor lilo
08:46<Snapser>Where are you installing grub to?
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08:46<Kylex>i tried MBR
08:46<Kylex>but he says he cant write there
08:46<Kylex>and i also tried a seperate boot partition, but same problem there
08:47<Snapser>is the bios protecting it?
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08:47<Kylex>i don't think so, i didnt check any virus protection or sth like that, and the windows boot loader did work
08:47<Sr_Knoppix_Debian>ei alguem manja de freebsd
08:48<dpkg>Este canal é apenas em inglês. Por favor, use #debian-br (/j #debian-br) para ajuda em portugues.
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08:48<Kylex>but after trying to install grub i can not access windows anymore
08:48<Kylex>i tried to get into the rescue mode with windows xp cd, but i get only a black screen ??!?!
08:49|-|Sr_Knoppix_Debian [~nuntsprk@] has left #debian []
08:49<Kylex>i don't know at all, how to get this fixed
08:49<Snapser>a command prompt?
08:49<Snapser>does the rescue mode provide a command prompt?
08:49<lindaci>helo a boy
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08:49<dpkg>I'm not your csh prompt!
08:50<lindaci>dont no entend
08:50<Kylex>i tried the rescue mode but no command prompt
08:50<Kylex>i'm currently trying to install the grub over knoppix, seems to work
08:50<ams>do you have ide or sata disks?
08:50<Kylex>2 sata
08:50<lindaci> u54y
08:50<lindaci>3wjkl;mlk;gnio?wv n
08:51<lindaci>hoturbhsedsrlwçpjhiou/hrejgkj lrt
08:51<Kylex>well, good news. installing grub into MBR with knoppix live-cd worked for me
08:51<DeFender1031>lindaci, please stop
08:51<Snapser>lindaci, go die.
08:51<Snapser>lindaci, go die.
08:51<lindaci>no ntend
08:52<Snapser>die for me~
08:52<Kylex>i don't understand it at all why i couldn't write MBR with the debian etch installer, but it works now :)
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08:52<Snapser>Kylex, is the disc damaged?
08:52<ams>Kylex, what is the kernel version in ubuntu?
08:52<ams>Kylex, uname -r
08:52<Kylex>well , i don't think so, currently booting into debian
08:52<DeFender1031>can someone kick him please?
08:52|-|mode/#debian [+q lindaci!*@*] by cdlu
08:53<Snapser>cdlu, <3<3<#
08:53|-|tjol [] has joined #debian
08:53<DeFender1031>Snapser, it just made him the channel owner...
08:53<ams>Kylex, perhaps it is a driver problem. the kernel in ubuntu might be newer
08:53[~]DeFender1031 is very confused
08:54<Kylex>2.6.18-5-686 @ snapper
08:54<Snapser>channel owner?
08:54<DeFender1031>no idea, that's what it said
08:54<dondelelcaro>DeFender1031: no, that's not what +q does
08:54<cdlu>me or lindaci? :)
08:54<dondelelcaro>(if your client said that, it's wrong)
08:54<DeFender1031>*** cdlu gives channel owner privileges to lindaci!*@*.
08:54<cdlu>DeFender, hehe... +q = quiet
08:54<Snapser>broken client
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08:55<DeFender1031>hmm, broken client then
08:55<Snapser>+q must = owner on some servers
08:55[~]ranix sets mode +awesome
08:55<DeFender1031>why would you quiet rather than kickban?
08:55<Kylex>now i just have to figure out how to get my windows into grub an everything will be fine :)
08:56<Kylex>thx for help guys
08:56<cdlu>DeFender, because I'm not the channel owner, ironically. :)
08:56<Snapser>Kylex, What desktop environment?
08:56<ranix>desktop environment?
08:56|-|lindaci [] has quit [Quit: Fui embora]
08:57<Snapser>Vista explorer.exe?
08:57<ranix>that's the only desktop environment I need
08:57<lupine_screen>Kylex: you need to use the chainloader IIRC
08:57|-|totov [] has joined #debian
08:57<lupine_screen>It's been a while, though
08:58<Kylex>sry , english is not my mothers tongue, does desktop environment mean KDE, or GNOME?
08:58<totov>hello all, does anyone know how to use under the same DISPLAY 6 (or more) different screen ? needed for a specifiq application
08:58<ranix>yes, Kylex, or Enlightenment or TWM or Windowmaker, et. al
08:59|-|mode/#debian [+l 323] by debhelper
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08:59<Kylex>so it's gnome for me @ snapser
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09:00<Kylex>and i am using mIRC because it's the only one installed on the laptop @ lupine_screen :)
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09:00<Jasons>ruben: not quite
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09:01<ruben>my bad
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09:01<ams>totov, i didn't understand you question completely, but perhaps 'screen' is what you are looking for?
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09:04<totov>ams : no , i need to have the possibility to have 6 different screen on the same DISPLAY , in fact i want to be able to use DISPLAY env variable with more than 4 different screen ... DISPLAY=:X.6 ... Xorg/Xinerama hack ?
09:07<totov>i thought about 2 different DISPLAY , and some work with Synergy...
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09:12<dannys>how to see what version i have on debian 4?
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09:15<stager>dannys: version of what? (I missed something? )
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09:15<dannys>version of debian
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09:17<stew>dannys: 4.0?
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09:17<stew>dannys: the version of debian on debian 4.0 is 4.0
09:17<stew>dannys: then what do you mean?
09:17<dannys>i need to see stable or unstable
09:17<stew>dannys: 4.0 is stable
09:18<dannys>yes but i do update to unstable
09:18<stew>dannys: then unstable
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09:18<stew>dannys: compare your version of libc6 to available versions on
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09:22<dannys>yes but how to see if i have sid or sarge?
09:23<dannys>some command on konsole?
09:23<peterS>dannys: cat /etc/debian_version
09:24<dannys>ok thanx
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09:26<stager>dannys: AFAIK it is possible to have some mix of stable/testing/unstable, where some packages are from stable, others - from testing or unstable. So it is not easy to answer to your question...
09:26<dannys>ok i find
09:26<dannys>you have righ
09:26<lupine_screen>if you're up-to-date (apt-get update && apt-get upgrade), then cat /etc/apt/sources.list will tell you what distro(s) you're running
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09:27[~]lupine_screen runs testing with some unstable and experimental packages - notably the kernel
09:28[~]ranix runs stable with some outside packages, like Wine
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09:38<totov>does someone here have some xinerama xorg skill ?
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09:39<dli__>totov, someone :(
09:39<totov>dli_, yes ?
09:40<Jasons>!tell totov about ask
09:40<totov>i just want to know if it's possible to have more than 4 screen under the same DISPLAY ?
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09:40<totov>oki... sorry for inconvenience ..
09:41<peterS>I'm not aware of any xorg limitation to number of screens you can have - but that means nothing, as I don't have 5 graphics outputs myself
09:42<totov>So... i have a customer who need to use an application that must be display on 6 screen minimum
09:42<peterS>I hope they have a pretty fat set of PCI busses then
09:42<totov>yes yes ... don't worry about physical
09:43<ErJeDi>bye to all :)
09:43<peterS>best you can do is get sample hardware and try it. there won't be any special tricks involved, it will either work or not work
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09:44<totov>i know but i don't have the computer with me ... that's why i just want to know if someone saw this one time ... or have an idea about the Xserver i can use ...
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09:46<peterS>totov: google around, I guess, and see if other people are doing this with xorg. debian xorg isn't special, it's just like any other xorg. note, stable has xorg 7.1, if that detail turns out to be important
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09:57<Jkl82>how can erase files with an specific date? (ie files that I use today.)?
09:58|-|kai [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
09:58<ams>something like find -atime 1 -exec rm {} \;
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09:58<Supaplex>but use ls first to be sure that's what you want
09:58<Jkl82>without rm right?
09:59|-|kai [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
09:59<Supaplex>drop -exec*, use -ls
09:59<Supaplex>when you're sure, then rm. or rm -i
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10:00<Jkl82>ok... so the idea first.. is try to be sure about what files should be erase...
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10:00<Jkl82>so first is:
10:01<Jkl82>find -atime | ?
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10:01<ams>not | but 1
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10:01<Jkl82>uh.... ok ams
10:01<ams>read also manual page for 'find'
10:02<ams>perhaps you need another option
10:02<Jkl82>ams, ok.. tnx
10:02<Jkl82>Supaplex, tnx
10:02<Jkl82>Im gonna practice first a bit. :)
10:02<Supaplex>good idea =)
10:03<ams>you can also use 'mc' :)
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10:03<Jkl82>ams... lol right?
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10:04<Jkl82>ams installing...
10:04<Jkl82>but actually I need it for an script.
10:04<ams>study find then
10:05<Jkl82>ams... ok thank you.
10:05|-|mode/#debian [-o weasel] by weasel
10:05<ams>also, depending on how many files you plan to remove it might be a good idea to look at performance increasing options
10:05<Jkl82>ams, ok.
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10:06<stager>ams: do you mean xargs?
10:07<ams>or gnu-extension of find
10:07<ams>-exec \+
10:08<JRamirez696>path for injection with wireshark???
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10:08<seanius>Jkl82: i prefer find + xargs myself
10:08<ams>seanius, surely, it is more portable
10:08<seanius>you can do find <your options here> -print0 | xargs -0 echo
10:09<seanius>and then when you're happy with the results replace echo with rm
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10:09<Jkl82>seanius, ok.. seek and destroy ;)
10:09<seanius>the -print0/-0 stuff will let this work even for files that have really odd and potentially damaging characters in their filename
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10:10<Jkl82>seanius, I mean.. find and destroy :p
10:10<seanius>for example, say you ran find from /, and somewhere you had /data/pictures from home/
10:10<ams>-exec \+ is the same as -print0 | xarg -0 but does not start a new process
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10:14<ams>it's a pity that xargs cannot be used this way in secure scripts
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10:15<dondelelcaro>why not?
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10:15<ams>the same reason why -exec cannot be used either ;)
10:15<ams>use -execdir
10:16<ams>someone could change the file system structure
10:16<dondelelcaro>if that actually matters, sure.
10:16<ams>before find -print0 and the command in xargs
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10:17<dondelelcaro>but in most cases, if an attacker is able to move the directories like that, he can do so even before find runs
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10:19<ams>it is not always an attacker
10:19<ams>it might be logrotate for example
10:19<dondelelcaro>logrotate doesn't move directories
10:20<ams>you get the idea i think
10:20<stager>ams, and how this problem may be solved?
10:20<dondelelcaro>it's not like -execdir protects you from the file being modified either, if it could be.
10:21<ams>no, it doesn't
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10:25<Valdinei>hi all
10:25<stew>Valdinei: do you have a debian related question?
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10:26<stager>ams, oh, I see (-execdir and \+ appeared in new version of find (Etch)), my Sarge desktop does not have these features :)
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10:27<Vearis>hi people I am seeking for libdvdcss2 and it seems that it is no more in do you know where i could find it? what depositary shoud i add to the sources.list? thanks
10:28<ams> stable/main
10:28<ams>i have it here
10:28<Vakio> is down, but the mirrors should work.
10:29<Vearis>ams thanks! vakio - is it down for good or just occasionally?
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10:30<Vakio>Vearis: they exceeded their bandwidth limit. Should be back next month.
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10:31<sepski>tarzeau, did you manage to boot your client ?
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10:34<Vearis>thx! as always this channel is highly efficient
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10:35<tweakt>compiz on sid? I just installed, compositing is working, but gtk-window-decorator never appears (I'm left with no WM)
10:36<tweakt>using 'compiz --replace'
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10:43<jagerman>stager: Great! (It really was just a guess on my part :))
10:44<jagerman>How can I find out what X thinks my screen's DPI is?
10:44<lupine_screen>xdpyinfo ?
10:44<tweakt>xdpyinfo | grep dpi
10:44<jagerman>Ah, thanks.
10:44<jagerman>Now, how do I fix it? :)
10:45<tweakt>sorry 'xdpyinfo | grep resolution'
10:45<tweakt>if the size reading is not right, you can override in xorg.conf
10:45<tweakt>but usually it's accurate with any relatively modern display
10:45<jagerman>X thinks my screen's dimensions are 474x356 millimeters, but that's 18"x14", which certainly isn't the case on my 14" laptop screen
10:46<jagerman>tweakt: I would have thought so too
10:46<seanius>tweakt: you might want to check the current list of bugreports, istr seeing something along those lines in there
10:46<jagerman>seanius: I had a brief look earlier, but didn't see anything obviously related.
10:46[~]jagerman will go look more carefully
10:47<jagerman>I blame ATI.
10:47<jagerman>I wish I had a notebook with intel or nvidia graphics :(
10:47<seanius>i th ink it could be something about an undeclared dependency or a dependency that should be versioned but isn't
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10:47<seanius>jagerman: latest xorg+nonfree-nvidia crashes on resume :(
10:48<seanius>at least on my dell d620
10:48<jagerman>seanius: Until about 6 months ago (my notebook is 4 years old) crash on resume was normal.
10:48<tweakt>anyone know compiz on sid? is it broke cause new gnome is going in? (2.20?)
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10:48<tweakt>gtk-window-decorator isn't working it seems
10:48<jagerman>seanius: On a D600
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10:51<jagerman>I'd gladly take a few weeks of not working over the past 3 years of annoyances.
10:51<seanius>jagerman: it was worknig fine for me in the past few months, but i hadn't been using it before then
10:52<seanius>tweakt: latest stuff in unstable works for me the last time i checked, but that might have been before .20
10:52<seanius>tweakt: ask me in an hour and i can check when i'm $home
10:52<jagerman>seanius: Actually, I'm more tempted to blame Dell for resume problems than ATI. Still, I'd be much happier with Intel graphics.
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10:52<tweakt>seanius, on .22 now...thanks, i'll keep poking around
10:53<tweakt>seanius, also amd64 btw
10:53<seanius>same here
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10:55<tweakt>is linux-ntfs != ntfs-3g ?
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10:57<jagerman>ntfs-3g is userspace, using fuse; isn't linux-ntfs the in-kernel support?
10:58<tweakt>yeah, looks like it. hmm
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10:59<jagerman>ntfs-3g works fairly well
10:59<jagerman>Much better than the in-kernel support
10:59<jagerman>i.e. it supports writing
10:59<jagerman>While the in-kernel support supports one tiny subset of writing
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11:00<tweakt>thats what I thought, kernel driver was performing horribly trying to backup, so I finally just used a network share
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11:31<seanius>tweakt: yeah it works for me with latest kernel + gnome + xorg + nvidia combo in unstable
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11:32<tweakt>seanius, hmm
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11:33<tweakt>seanius, what I get is compositing is working (run cairo-clock, it looks nice), but no window borders, etc)
11:33<tweakt>seanius, should compiz return to a shell after I run it? cause it does not
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11:47<tarzeau>sepski: almost, it hangs at a different place now
11:47<tarzeau>sepski: i can continue working on it tomorrow
11:48<seanius>tweakt: no, it doesn't return a shell
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11:49<tweakt>seanius, well I just installed, maybe i'm missing something. thanks
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11:52<seanius>tweakt: no other error messages?
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11:52<tweakt>seanius, not in the console
11:53<tweakt>if run seperately, gtk-window-decorator simply complains about existing wm
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11:54<seanius>tweakt: coule you pastebin dpkg -l "*compiz*" ?
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11:59<seanius>hrm, that's what i got too
11:59<tweakt>seanius, also did the xorg.conf settings
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11:59<tweakt>Option "AllowGLXWithComposite" "true"
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11:59<tweakt>Option "AddARGBGLXVisuals" "true"
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12:00<tweakt>Option "Composite" "enable"
12:01<tweakt>should default depth be 24 or 32?
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12:02<kai>anyone know a good howto for installing bootsplash?
12:03<tweakt>vlc crashes on startup, blah
12:03<tweakt>I think gnome-2.20 is breaking things since it's not all there yet
12:04<seanius>i have my defaultdepth at 24
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12:05<seanius>i don't know if it's relevant but in addition to what you mentioned (which aren't in the same section, just in case) i also have Option "XAANoOffscreenPixmaps" "true"
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12:05<Vakio>tweakt: G_SLICE=always-malloc vlc
12:05<tweakt>seanius, yeah diff ones
12:06<tweakt>Vakio, wow neat.
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12:10<seanius>tweakt: this is my output from dpkg -l '*gnome*' | grep ^ii | awk '{ print $2"\t"$3 }' | sort in case it's helpful:
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12:14<tweakt>** (.:19274): CRITICAL **: gtk_pizza_set_size: assertion `pizza != NULL' failed
12:14<tweakt>no pizza! no wonder!
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12:38<mmInd>I'm looking for an "ansi" wxWidgets instead of the "unicode" dev one that is installed via "apt-get install libwxgtk2.6-dev" anyone know if this is this available, or how I could do this?
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12:54<d3m3ntu>hello ppl
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12:55<mzhang>For thinkpad T60 w/ ultrabay: possible to hdaps both hda and sda?
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13:03[~]Supaplex slides tavo a nice tall glass o' rice drink
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13:05<Supaplex>how's the tavo today?
13:06<fxiny>+25% at the nasdy
13:06<Supaplex>nice. it beats sco :P
13:06<Supaplex>er scox even
13:06<Supaplex>!quote scox
13:06<dpkg>SCOX: 0.1783 (0.19/0.17), 9/26/2007 1:51pm, Opened 0.18, Volume 310,704, Change -0.0017
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13:06<Supaplex>HA what luzers
13:06<fxiny>tomorrow sco will be kicked off for goods :)))
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13:07[~]Supaplex ponders buying $1 worth of shares, just to say "I pwn u!!!"
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13:07<Supaplex>5s/$1. nice.
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13:08<stew>Volume 310,704. that means someone is still actually buying it
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13:09<stew>i guess the shorts have to cover
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13:11<david321>je voudrais savoir si limit.conf agit seulement sur les utilisateurs ou aussi sur les démons
13:11<dpkg>Pour l'aide en francais, veuillez aller aux canaux #debian-fr sur ou French users: for help in french, please go to #debian-fr on or
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13:12[~]fxiny wonders why a japanese avi comes with japanese (broken) subs
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13:13<david321>I would like to know if limit.conf acts only on the users or also on the demons
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13:14<Supaplex>(typo fix)
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13:20<mark__>seanius, I have a new discovery
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13:22<mark__>compiz wrapper script was hiding this
13:22<mark__>also gconf key '/apps/compiz/plugins/decoration/allscreens/options/command' was blank, but not sure that is a problem or not
13:22<seanius>hm, inside nvidia's goo
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13:23<seanius>have you recompiled a new nvidia kernel to go with the latest xorg?
13:23<seanius>s/kernel/\1 module/
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13:23<mark__>I did
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13:24<mark__>perhaps too new/causing breakage?
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13:25<mark__>oops, here, wider:
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13:25<Guest76>hello, this is my first time using IRC and I'm still pretty new to Linux in general. So please be kind. I tried to remove KDE, and I had a really strange an inexplicable thing happen to me. Could I get some help here?
13:26<seanius>NVRM: loading NVIDIA UNIX x86_64 Kernel Module 100.14.19 Wed Sep 12 14:08:38 PDT 2007
13:26<seanius>^^^ that's me
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13:26<Guest76>Also, I don't know how to change my name from "guest", so sorry.
13:26<cahoot>try /nick <nick>
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13:27<seanius>Guest76: no worries, just go ahead and start asking :)
13:27<mark__>seanius, dang, same ver here
13:27<Myon>where <nick> is something not reserved
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13:28[~]aptituz asks himself if foobar is a reserved nick
13:29<Myon>d3m3nt: could you fix your connection please?
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13:29<Guest76>thanks. As I said, I figured it would be pretty painless to remove KDE, since I've only used Gnome. I removed the main KDE library and all the KDE programs in Synaptic. Then, when I restarted, all the KDE programs were still on the menus (although not really still installed), a bunch of other stuff was missing from the menus (but still installed), and now my sound and video aren't working right, and my USB drive isn't recognized.
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13:30<aptituz>hm.. thats so obvious related to debian
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13:30<bahamat>I just upgraded a system to etch and can't SSH into it...auth.log says "auth could not identify password for [bahamat]"
13:30<doobian>i'm using the stable version of debian (supposedly)
13:30<bahamat>can someone point me somewhere that might help resolve the situation?
13:31<Myon>bahamat: getent passwd bahamat
13:31<Myon>+ getent shadow
13:31<bahamat>myon: bahamat:x:1000:1000......
13:31<seanius>doobian: sounds like it maybe rmeoved more than you intended
13:31<doobian>yeah, i guess so!
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13:31<seanius>doobian: do you get this even after a reboot?
13:31<seanius>or logout/login
13:32<aptituz>bahamat: is the line really as you posted it?
13:32<bahamat>Myon: I have an entry in the shadow file, but getent shadow fails
13:32<Myon>needs root
13:32<bahamat>aptituz: no, I cut the rest of the line
13:32<aptituz>ah ok ;)
13:32<doobian>i removed KDE (what I thought was only KDE stuff), then i noticed what happened w/ the menus, then i restarted and everything else was wonky
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13:33<bahamat>Myon: oh...duh, I should have known that...ok, it shows my passwd entry
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13:34<mark__>seanius, n/m only segfault when I was running it in a minimal X session, probably not meant to work that way
13:35<Myon>hmm, check the nss and pam config
13:35<Myon>(and sshd)
13:35<mark__>seanius, no crash normally, just screen flashes, and then it exits
13:35<fxiny>bahamat: does it show your password ? can you prove it ? i do not believe you :P
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13:36<doobian>all of those things seem like they could be treated separately, but i was really hoping there's some way to revert back to the way it was, or to just re-install everything i uninstalled
13:37<bahamat>fxiny: let me assure you, when I use mkpasswd, pass the appropriate salt and specify MD5 it results in the same hash
13:37<jagerman>How do I change my DPI? I tried adding a proper DisplaySize option to my "Monitor" section of xorg.conf, but the log reports that the option isn't used.
13:37<fxiny>bahamat: super nerd !
13:37<jagerman>(And indeed, it did not change the dpi)
13:37<cahoot>disable ddc?
13:38<jagerman>ddcprobe gives me correct values, though
13:38<bahamat>fxiny: I try
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13:39<jagerman>Oh, duh
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13:40<jagerman>DisplaySize is an instruction, not an Option
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13:41[~]jagerman tries again
13:41<doobian>the sound card works, because when i do a speaker-test it works, but when i try to use xmms, it gives me sound card errors
13:41<stew>doobian: is snd-pcm-oss loaded?
13:41<cahoot>what's xmms set to use for output?
13:42<ameyer>xmms seems to be broken in sid right now...
13:42<cahoot>I thought it was obsoleted
13:42<doobian>ameyer sid is the unstable version of debian, right? i'm using stable
13:42<seanius>doobian: you can probably "go back" by installing all the packages you removed, or at least browse the package names that were removed
13:43<seanius>doobian: assuming you did a normal "remove" and not a "purge"
13:43<doobian>cahoot, i don't know, how can i check?
13:43<jagerman>Yay, it worked
13:43<ameyer>doobian: yeah, sid = unstable
13:43<doobian>seanius, i removed A LOT... just about everything that starts with K... i used synaptic
13:43<cahoot>doobian, it is a menu choice
13:44<cahoot>like preferences-output or such
13:44<ameyer>and actually, it's not xmms that seems to be broken, it's xmms-crossfade
13:45<doobian>cahoot, OSS driver 1.2.10
13:45<cahoot>either do as stew said or change to alsa
13:46<jagerman>Or change to audacious, or some other music player.
13:46<Vakio>doobian: you can view all the removed packages in Synaptic.
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13:46<jagerman>xmms is (hopefully) on the way to destruction.
13:46<jagerman>I mean deletion.
13:46<seanius>doobian: heh. anyway does the output of "dpkg -l | grep ^rc" look like the list of removed packages?
13:47<doobian>ok i changed it to alsa and it works!
13:47<fxiny>yes it is : i already use xmms2 on etch
13:47<doobian>maybe i can just reconfigure all this stuff without re-installing the packages i removed
13:48<seanius>doobian: sure. and hey, it might even be educational :)
13:48<fxiny>i'm running "gonzo" version , iirc sid has Dr.Jeckill
13:48<fxiny>much better :P
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13:49<jagerman>fxiny: Does it have any winamp/xmms-style interfaces?
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13:49<fxiny>jagerman: gxmms2 : i am addicted to the cli
13:49<doobian>seanius, education is why i switched to linux :)
13:49<doobian>let me see
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13:50<doobian>seanius, yeah that's everything i removed, i guess
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13:51<doobian>jagerman, does audacious have visualization plugins?
13:51<jagerman>fxiny: That looks nothing like xmms
13:51<jagerman>doobian: I don't know, I don't use 'em.
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13:52<doobian>i got xmms 'cause i want to use projectm (milkdrop) but i can't get my videocard to do it, so whatever
13:52<jagerman>It's the xmms playlist that I like, not the main window.
13:52<fxiny>jagerman: check xmms2 cli first : no need to run any gui
13:52<jagerman>gxmms2 keeps the main window, and switches to a shitty playlist :(
13:53<jagerman>fxiny: I *like* having a gui
13:54<jagerman>It is much faster to find some particular item from my playlist
13:54<cahoot>jagerman, maybe take a look at aqualung
13:55<fxiny>cahoot: i remember aqualung yes !
13:56<cahoot>of course
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13:57<fxiny>jagerman: with xmms2 you can do sqlite3 qyery
13:57<doobian>seanius, that command gave me a list of everything i removed, but i don't need to re-install all of that, do i?
13:57<fxiny>cahoot: yes : 1974 :)
13:57<jagerman>fxiny: Sure, it supports all sorts of cool things, but it's the front end client that I use all the time that I really care about.
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13:59<fxiny>jagerman: xmms2 clear/radd/list/status are all i need
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14:00<seanius>doobian: no, but it can serve for reference if anything looks like it might be useful after all
14:00<fxiny>hajvan: jump and seek too :)
14:00<fxiny>jagerman: ^^^
14:00<fxiny>and more more more ....
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14:01<doobian>seanius, like i said, i'm new to linux, i have no idea what looks useful.
14:01<fxiny>jagerman: is lighter then xmms , it uses less ram . i have an old box
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14:01<jagerman>fxiny: I get kind of undecisive about music and like to scroll up and down the playlist until something stands out to make me say "THAT'S what I want to listen to"
14:02<doobian>i removed the main kde libraries, and everything that depends on them, as well as all the kde games and junk
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14:02<doobian>but i think i had to get back some of it to re-install kopete
14:02<fxiny>jagerman: you can use gxmms2 for that
14:03<doobian>the sound and everything seems to be working fine now that i changed the output, i guess that was pretty obvious. the only problem left is the usb drive not being recognized.
14:03<jagerman>fxiny: I know, but I dislike the way most clients split up cd/artist/track into columns
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14:03<fxiny>but if you want a nice gui follow cahoot advice : aqualung looks very nice
14:04<stew>doobian: modprobe "snd-pcm-oss" and add snd-pcm-oss to /etc/modules ; then programs that want to use oss will work
14:04<stew>doobian: /msg dpkg usb-storage
14:04<jagerman>Is it an xmms2 frontend?
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14:05<jagerman>I'll give it a whirl
14:05<doobian>stew, how do i add snd-pcm-oss to /etc/modules
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14:06<rjbase89>I need to update the kernel that I am using with Etch. I presently am using version 2.6.18 and it doesn't support all my hardware. I do not have internet service with Etch and must accomplish this transition without an internet connection.
14:06<jagerman>doobian: Why do you want to?
14:06<stew>doobian: "editor /etc/modules"
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14:06<jagerman>doobian: I thought switching it to alsa fixed your problem?
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14:07<stew>jagerman: so that other apps that maybe don't know how to talk to alsa will work
14:07<jagerman>doobian: Just install kopete; it'll automatically pull in any dependencies it needs.
14:08<doobian>jagerman, yeah i did that already, kopete's working fine
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14:08<jagerman>doobian: Or you could use pidgin
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14:08<doobian>jagerman, i like kopete better for now, but i'm still making up my mind
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14:10<rjbase89>Can I update the kernel that I am running with under Etch or do I just patch it?
14:10<doobian>stew, dpkg usb-storage needs an action option?
14:11<stew>dpkg: tell doobian about usb-storage
14:12<stew>rjbase89: you can upgrade it like any other package, in this case the package name is 'linux-image-$(uname -r)'
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14:13<doobian>stew, i mean i tried dpkg usb-storage and it said it needs an action option
14:13<rjbase89>Stew> I tried installing version 2.6.22 and the system just hung while booting up...
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14:14<stew>doobian: dpkg is the name of our bot. i was telling you a command to type into your irc client to get him to give you information about setting up usb drives
14:14<stew>dpkg: usb-storage
14:14<dpkg>Load the 'usb-storage' and 'sd_mod' modules. Then your USB drive should appear as /dev/sda or /dev/sdb or something. Consult /proc/partitions to see if it has a partition table. Create an entry in /etc/fstab like: "/dev/sda1 /mnt/usb vfat user,noauto,noatime 0 0", and do "mkdir /mnt/usb". Then you can "mount /mnt/usb" and "umount /mnt/usb" at will. ask me about <automount>
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14:16<stew>rjbase89: how did you install it?
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14:17<rjbase89>I had a set of instructions that I found online. It was similar to a method that I used years ago when I was having trouble with Woody.
14:17<doobian>how exactly do i load a module?
14:18<doobian>i told you i'm really new :/
14:18<stew>doobian: with "modprobe" and you list them in /etc/modules if you want them to be automatically loaded when you boot
14:18<robind>hi! before i post a bugreport : did someone succeeded in burning a very large file (4.3GB) with k3b (debian testing) ?
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14:19<laura>nick doobian
14:19|-|laura changed nick to doobian
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14:20<Guest82>why does it keep trying to change my nickname!!!??
14:20|-|Guest82 changed nick to doobian
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14:21<doobian>stew, so "modprobe usb-storage"
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14:23<rjbase89>Stew > obviously I am a beginner at this... but I have had sucess with ths problem in the past with Woody. But I didn't upgrade the kernel I was using under Woody. I then just reconfigured and recompiled the kernel to solve the problem then.
14:23<stew>doobian: yes, and "modprobe sd_mod", then see if "dmesg" says something about "attatching" the drive to something like /dev/sda or /dev/sdb
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14:23<stew>rjbase89: what does "uname -r" say?
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14:25<rjbase89>Stew> I am not in Etch right now... like I said I dont have an internet connection with Etch since it doesnt support ipw3945
14:25<Flimzy>My iptables firewall is blocking a bunch of ACK RST's and ACK FIN's. I have it set to allow any ESTABLISHED,RELATED connections... why is it blocking these?
14:25<rjbase89>I have never userd the -r option with uname...what does it do?
14:26<stew>rjbase89: returns the kernel version string
14:26<stew>rjbase89: etch supports ipw3945
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14:26<doobian>stew, that gave me a LOT of output, but at the end it says new usb support registered
14:26|-|mode/#debian [+b *!*@] by stew
14:26|-|mode/#debian [-o stew] by stew
14:27<rjbase89>Stew> how can I get Etch to support ipw3945 without an internet connection?
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14:27<stew>rjbase89: install ipw3945d ipw3945-modules-$(uanme -r) firmware-ipw3945
14:28<stew>rjbase89: you ahve to get the firmware-ipw3945 package from non-free
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14:28<stew>rjbase89: clearly you have an internet connection, as we are using it to chat
14:28<rjbase89>Stew > can I get those packages from
14:29<stew>rjbase89: yes,
14:30<doobian>stew, and further up it says usb 1-1: device descriptor read/64, error -32
14:31<doobian>i bought the usb drive after i started using debian, and i never had to do anything to get it to work in the first place, i just plugged it in and it mounted
14:31<rjbase89>Stew > thanks... yes I have a connection to the internet but I am running a muti-boot... I am using Debian for this connection right now... thats got to change.
14:33<rjbase89>Stew > those packages contain the documentation I need to install them?
14:33<seanius>doobian: was hal removed?
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14:34<doobian>seanius, no, hal is not on that list
14:34<rjbase89>Stew > I meant to say that I am using a muti-boot and I am not using Debian for this connection right now...
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14:34<rjbase89>multi...GD I cant read this tiny print
14:35<NaufraGo>who knows about wine?.. I'm trying to install the latest version by deb etch source.. but terminal gives me a directory error:
14:35<stew>rjbase89: you'll also want "wireless-tools" if you don't have it. "modprobe ipw3945" after you install those. for documentation try "man 7 wireless" and "man 5 interfaces".
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14:36<Whacker>w ?
14:36<rjbase89>Stew > Thanks... I look into all this...
14:36<seanius>rjbase89: or alternatively, install network-manager with the ipw packages
14:37<NaufraGo>can anybody help me?
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14:37<rjbase89>Seanius > thanks...
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14:38<Vakio>NaufraGo: do you want help or not?
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14:39<NaufraGo>I do
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14:40<NaufraGo>yo read my question?
14:40<Vakio>NaufraGo: have you tried using the Debian package of Wine?
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14:40<NaufraGo>what do you mean, where is it
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14:41<Vakio>NaufraGo: aptitude install wine
14:41<quitte>hi. what is the difference betwwen buffers and cache?
14:41<doobian>the usb drive still isn't showing up in /dev
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14:42<NaufraGo>I did.. it installed wine 0.9.25 ... and I want to upgrade to 0.9.45
14:43<stew>doobian: is udev installed? if so, which version?
14:43<Vakio>NaufraGo: btw, you didn't actually tell your error.
14:43<NaufraGo>I tried macromedia flash 8 and fireworks mx and none worked 100%, so maybe by the latest version it'd work better
14:43<chealer>quitte: did you check Wikipedia?
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14:43<NaufraGo>when I type apt-cache update, it says some directory of that source doesn't exist
14:44<doobian>stew: 0.105-4
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14:44<NaufraGo>deb binary/ #deb-src source/ (that's the source)
14:44<stew>doobian: what does "uname -r" say?
14:44<NaufraGo>no, that's not..
14:44<doobian>stew: also, it looks like /proc/partitions is empty
14:44<NaufraGo>eb etch main #WineHQ - Debian 4.0 "Etch" deb-src etch main #WineHQ - Debian 4.0 "Etch"
14:45<NaufraGo>you get it Vakio?
14:45<Eulex>NaufraGo, we do not support third-party apt repos. but, well, what's the error? (to see if it's some simple pebkac)
14:45<Vakio>!tell NaufraGo about paste
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14:46<doobian>stew: 2.6.18-4-686, but i have the 2.6.18-5-686 kernel, i forgot i tried booting on the older kernel to see if it made any difference, that matter?
14:46<NaufraGo> etch/main Packages (/var/lib/apt/lists/wine.budgetdedicated.com_apt_dists_etch_main_binary-i386_Packages) - stat (2 File or directory does not exist)
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14:46<stew>no, that shouldn't matter
14:46<stew>NaufraGo: aptitude update
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14:47<NaufraGo>apt-cache update?
14:47<stew>NaufraGo: no, either apt-get update or aptitude update
14:47<NaufraGo>the error appears when I type that
14:49<stew>NaufraGo: run it again, and show us the entire output
14:49<stew>NaufraGo: use a pastebin: /msg dpkg pastebin
14:51<NaufraGo>hmm, it was an embarassing mistake.. it's apt-get update not apt-cache update
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14:53<doobian>so, the usb drive should be appearing in /dev as /sda , but it's not there
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14:53<Vakio>doobian: would you like to pastebin the list of programs you removed?
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14:54<doobian>Vakio: i can do that if you would like to see them. what was the command to list them again?
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14:55<Vakio>doobian: dpkg -l | grep ^rc
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15:00<doobian>Vakio, that work?
15:01<doobian>any of that look like i shouldn't have removed it?
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15:04<Vakio>doobian: it worked, but I don't see anything relevant to your problems.
15:04<posix>anyone know of a tutorial for installing nv drivers on lenny?
15:04<Vakio>doobian: so it must be something else.
15:05<Vakio>posix: aptitude install xserver-xorg-video-nv
15:05<doobian>Vakio, i just don't understand, because I never had to do anything to use the drive in the first place
15:05<Vakio>posix: (unless you meant the non-free nvidia drivers).
15:05|-|TargetLocalHost [] has joined #debian
15:05<posix>the non-free give me glx yes?
15:05|-|Snapser [] has joined #debian
15:06<Vakio>!tell posix about nvidia
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15:09<dpkg>Hispanohablantes: Por favor usen #debian-es, alli obtendran mas ayuda. Spanish Speakers: Please use #debian-es, there you will get much more help.
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15:12<doobian>anyone else got any suggestions about my usb drive?
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15:15<posix>nvidia-kernel-source doesn't seem to exist for lenny..
15:15<cahoot>doobian, try modprobe -r ehci-hc
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15:15<cahoot>doobian, err modprobe -r ehci-hcd
15:15<thierry>so I've been trying to get my wlan to work and stumbled upon a nice wiki that tells me how to do it. unfortunately, the driver for my card only works with a patch (at least for my kernel, which is 2.6.21) and the instructions are a bit short..
15:16<thierry> <-- that's the page, with the patch (I think?), what do I do with it?
15:16<thierry>I've installed the driver via apt-get, if that helps..
15:16<doobian>cahoot, it's still not showing up in /dev
15:16<doobian>cahoot, it should be something like /dev/sda0 right?
15:17<cahoot>still errors in dmesg?
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15:19<cahoot>doobian, you know it might be faulty hardware
15:19<doobian>cahoot,, that's part of what i get on dmesg
15:20<doobian>cahoot, i dont' think it's faulty hardware, because it was working right before i removed all that stuff, then the next day when i plugged it in, it wouldn't mount
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15:21<cahoot>doobian, I doubt removing kde and such would result in this type of problem
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15:22|-|doobian changed nick to laura
15:22<Vakio>doobian: have you tested the drive on another computer?
15:22<chealer>thierry: if you don't mind, are you sure you need that?
15:23|-|laura changed nick to Guest87
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15:23<thierry>It doesn't work without the patch and I hate the cable lying across my apartment ;>
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15:23<chealer>thierry: what happens?
15:23<doobian>sorry, i don't know why it keeps doing that to my nickname. the drive has always worked fine on this computer and others.
15:24<doobian>it still works on my windows computer
15:24<thierry>chealer, when I try what?
15:24|-|kai_ [] has joined #debian
15:24<chealer>thierry: when you try to "make it work"
15:24<Vakio>This is what the Linux USB FAQ says about "device not accepting address":
15:25<thierry>the patching? I don't even know what file I'm supposed to patch, I've never done this and the instructions are.. not there :\
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15:25<chealer>thierry: I don't know. my "it" is yours.
15:26<thierry>well, yes. I'm here, because I don't know what to patch :)
15:26<thierry>and all I know is right there on that wiki page
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15:27<chealer>thierry: uh. I was asking you if you were sure you need the patch.
15:27<thierry>yeah, there is no internet with no patch applied.
15:27<thierry>(without cable, that is :\)
15:27<chealer>thierry: how do you know?
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15:28<thierry>I've tried..
15:28<doobian>Vakio, i don't understand though, it worked before
15:28<Vakio>doobian: have you checked the USB cable, etc?
15:28<thierry>disabling ethernet, enabling wireless (it even found the station, but can't connect nowhere) and so on..
15:28<doobian>vakio, it's a keychain flash drive
15:28<Vakio>doobian: ah.
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15:29<chealer>thierry: how do you know that only the patch could change that?
15:30<doobian>what could've changed?
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15:30<thierry>the wiki states "The latest version doesn't compile with kernel 2.6.21 and 2.6.22."
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15:30<chealer>thierry: I wouldn't trust that page.
15:30<doobian>i mean, i understand that removing kde shouldn't have affected it, but that's the only thing that changed, aside from a few packages that updated
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15:32<chealer>thierry: not the current revision anyway. the site is broken right now.
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15:33<thierry>what's the current revision then?
15:34<chealer>thierry: what do you mean? the current revision is the one you see at
15:34<Vakio>doobian: try booting a live cd and see if it works there. (I'm clearly running out of ideas...)
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15:35<thierry>so, um, there's nothing I can do besides downgrading to 2.6.18 ?
15:35<doobian>Vakio, I don't have one, my friend installed debian for me
15:35<chealer>thierry: where did you get what you just quoted?
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15:36<doobian>vakio, but if i can get ahold of one and it does work, what should i do?
15:36<chealer>thierry: ah. do you need the driver's latest version?
15:37<thierry>20070101 is the latest, I think. at least that's the one they're providing and that's the same as in debian testing..
15:38<Vakio>doobian: I'm not sure. But at least then you'd know that it's a software problem.
15:38<doobian>Vakio, i'm sure it's a software program, because it works on the other computer
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15:39<Vakio>doobian: unless your USB port has mysteriosly broken down :)
15:39<chealer>thierry: oooh, OK. I thought it was a Linux patch. then you don't need to apply that patch, it must be already included in the package.
15:40<doobian>very mysteriously, let me try connecting my mp3 player
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15:40<thierry>so, the package that's in debian testing should already be patched and working? :\
15:40<chealer>thierry: yes
15:40<drsource>cwc is "crack windows corporation"
15:40<drsource>i'm from cwc
15:41<drsource>fuck all windows os
15:41<drsource>is my logo
15:41<thierry>chealer, thanks, I'll look for another problem then.
15:41<stew>drsource: do you have a debian related question?
15:41<doobian>Vakio, the mp3 player mounts fine
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15:42<doobian>wtf??! after trying the mp3 player, i unmounted it and plugged the flash drive back in!
15:42<doobian>and it works!
15:43<doobian>i don't know what i did!
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15:43<Vakio>doobian: my next suggestion would've been "just start doing random stuff", but you beat me to it.
15:43<stew>drsource: if you can repeat it, save a copy of the output of "lsmod" from when it works and when it doens't, and compare the difference
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15:44<stew>doobian: if you can repeat it, save a copy of the output of "lsmod" from when it works and when it doens't, and compare the difference
15:44<doobian>stew, repeat what?
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15:45<doobian>stew, making it not work? i'd rather not ;)
15:45<stew>doobian: run "lsmod" now. save the output. if you find yourself in the situation again where you can't mount it again, run "lsmod" again, and compare the output
15:46<doobian>stew, i see, might be worthwhile. i am totally baffled. i didn't change anything.
15:46<doobian>thanks for all your help, everyone
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15:46<Vakio>No problem.
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15:48<doobian>stew, it's not working, can i show you my lsmod output?
15:49<stew>doobian: do you ahve a copy from when it was not working?
15:49<stew>doobian: err, from when it was?
15:49<stew>doobian: but sure, i'll look
15:49<doobian>stew, i just tried it again and it's not working, i guess i celebrated too soon. but i DEFINITELY didn't change anything this time.
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15:55<doobian>stew, ok i can duplicate it. it works when i plug in the mp3 player and then put the flash drive in. both automount.
15:55<doobian>but if i unmount them both, then plug in the flash drive, it doesnt' come up
15:55<stew>doobian: save a copy of lsmod from when it is working and when it is not, and compare them
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15:57<stew>doobian: ok, that's not it then
15:58<doobian>stew, isn't that weird though?
15:58<doobian>stew, and it doesn't matter which slot i put it in
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16:04<doobian>ok, well i will try posting on some forums and see if anyone there can help me out
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16:04<doobian>stew, thanks
16:05<stew>doobian: i'd at this point, be blaming the actual usb device
16:05<doobian>stew, could it have gotten fried or something?
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16:05<doobian>stew, i mean like i said, it works fine on the other computer, and when i have the mp3 player already mounted
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16:17<nosilver4u>maybe i'll get yelled at for this, but I'm going to ask it anyway, and face the music
16:17<ino>hey all
16:17<ino>i have a probleme with teamspeak server
16:18|-|miteyMite [] has joined #debian
16:18<nosilver4u>I'm using sid (on a VM at least), and I just noticed today with updates that it wants to remove epiphany-extensions. Is this because they are going away, or just a version mismatch?
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16:18<ino>i have set up a team speak server i can acces in the intranet but no on fron internet so i have type this in console for iptables
16:18<nosilver4u>and is there a better place to receive such information like the mailing lists?
16:18<ino>iptables -A INPUT -p tcp -m tcp -i tun0 --dport 8767 -j ACCEPT-A input_ext -p tcp -m tcp --dport 8767 -j ACCEPT
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16:19<lupine_85>ino: if you want to keep the config across reboots, you want iptables-save and iptables-restore (IIRC)
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16:19<ino>oki but for the moment no one can acces to my teamspeak server
16:20<ino>what i have done wrong in the iptables config
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16:21<chealer>nosilver4u: if you have to ask, sid is not for you
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16:23<nosilver4u>well, I prefer gentoo unstable, but I don't have the time for compiling stuff that often
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16:28<streuner>!gentoosmite nosilver4u
16:28[~]dpkg spends 7 days recompiling nosilver4u, and when it's all done, nosilver4u runs 1% slower than previously
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16:31<nosilver4u>ok, i found my answer
16:32<nosilver4u>from what i can tell, the mirror i chose is just slow to update the version on that package, so I'll try another
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16:33<artur>i'm asking myself how to bring up sit0 interface automatically on boot on etch
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16:39<tweakt>still no luck with compiz :-(
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17:04<JRamirez696>i need any program, for data injection ??
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17:07<prahal>tweakt, try compiz fusion
17:07<prahal>there are packages available on tuxfamily
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17:08<tweakt>prahal, that is newer, isn't it?
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17:10<prahal>not really it is the merge of compiz and beryl a wip . I have it running on all my boxes with a few itches (gconf backend issues, running without it fixes the problem) while compiz vanilla was unable to work
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17:11<prahal>deb unstable compiz-fusion-git extra
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17:30<NetLSD>hi anyone know if there is an issue with Deb's install CD not getting my PC online with a wireless Encore card?
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17:47<dpkg>our $apt=Blootbot->new($apt)
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17:47<Cyorxamp>Blootbot tell me about clone?
17:47<Cyorxamp>!dpkg clone
17:48<hachi>so, I'm trying to search for 'xen' in the debian suite 'testing'... I'm trying to find the naming scheme for the packages related to all this. The website tells me that at least 100 packages matched, but won't show me any of them? Is this just broken?
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17:48<hachi>it's being very unhelpful in letting me find the package names I'm looking for, it says to use a more exact match, which I can't do because I don't know the naming scheme used
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17:49<lupine_85>hachi: try xen-
17:49<lupine_85>also, apt-cache is well worth using
17:49<hachi>can't use apt-cache until I install a machine
17:50<hachi>currently the machines I want to use this on are running centos/vmware, I'm trying to see if I can safely switch, but I need to see the package info first
17:50<hachi>no results, again
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17:52<lupine_85>try this:§ion=all
17:52<lupine_85>a bit indirect, but gets you there in the ensd
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17:53<hachi>oh, that's why it's going so crazy
17:53<hachi>'xen' happens to be part of so many other package names
17:53<hachi>wish I could do like '\bxen\b'
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17:54<stew>hachi: apt-cache search '\bxen\b'
17:54<hachi>can't use apt-cache without a machine
17:54<lupine_85>hehe, you know... I can apt-get install yum
17:54<lupine_85>can't you yum install apt?
17:55<hachi>maybe I can... I never really wanted to
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17:56<lupine_85>still haven't got emerge in apt, though. shame.
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17:58<thierry>yay, 3D and wireless are working now. last and not that important issue: sound never works on first boot (it's veeeery low volume, almost inconceivable) but when I reboot, it works perfectly.. solution?
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17:58<lupine_85>thierry: volume can be controlled with alsamixer ....
17:59<thierry>i know q:
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17:59<thierry>a reboot doesn't change any volume settings.
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17:59<lupine_85>heh, fair enough. you'd be surprised how many don't
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17:59<lupine_85>I never reboot, so wouldn't know ;)
17:59<thierry>ha ;>
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18:08<lupine_85>recommendations for a lightweight WM/DE for use over NX? Preferably something not ugly? ;)
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18:25<prahal>lupine_85, do you know of some quite current debs for NX ? any DE should do regarding that NX is very efficient
18:26<prahal>xfce is lightweight
18:26<lupine_85>the Nomachines website has debs for Etch
18:26<lupine_85>they also work in testing
18:26<lupine_85>it's literally install-and-run
18:26<prahal>yup but sid have new and such
18:26<lupine_85>irrelevent, AFAIK
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18:28<kerneld>Any idea when gnome in unstable will be OK?
18:31<azeem>kerneld: well, it's unstable
18:31<azeem>kerneld: what is your particular problem, anyway?
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18:34<kerneld>azeem: The following packages will be REMOVED gnome-applets gnome-applets-dbg gnome-core gnome-dbg gnome-games ...
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18:34<kerneld>no problem yet - as I haven't upgraded
18:34<dli__>kerneld, gnome-2.20 just released last week
18:35<kerneld>Yep - I gathered that.. I guess I should just go check the buildd
18:35<posix>Any easy way to convert a WinUHA SFX .exe file to something useable?
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18:36<kerneld>posix: wine?
18:36|-|nef [] has quit []
18:36<posix>kerneld: gives me a "fixme:shell:BrsFolder_OnCreate flags 40 not implemented"
18:37<kerneld>vmware :P
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18:37<kerneld>sorry - no idea what WinUHA is
18:37<kerneld>guessing some propriatry archive
18:37<posix>something that strips it of exe headers and just gives me the sfx archive would be ideal...
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19:43<ozatomic>Howto: Compile Wine for Eve (from source)
19:43<ozatomic>This Howto will walk you through each step needed to go from a base install of Edgy (with just the Graphics system configured) to having a copy of wine and Eve installed.
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19:44<ozatomic>sorry about that copyied to much
19:45<ozatomic>i've jstu used apt to install "wine" and i keep getting segmentation faults in it, i have read to use "./configure CFLAGS=-fno-stack-protector" while compiling it, how can i make apt use this or do i haev to do this myself?
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19:50<Debianner>speak german
19:50<dpkg>deutschsprachige Hilfe bekommt ihr in (auf, oder - German speaking users please go to (on, freenode or
19:51<Debianner>we never seen us again!
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19:55<kop>I've got a usb memory stick. Where in /mount is the debian place to mount it? (And what would kde do if I handn't clicked "cancel"?)
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19:56<kop>Oops.. I mean /media/
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19:59<Samuka>look .. i don´t now.. but i mount in a diretory that i made
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20:00<kop>Maybe there's an answer in debian-policy?
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20:01<Samuka>ohh i´m sorry.. i ´m totaly newbie in linux.. aUHAUhUHAUH
20:02<kop>Samuka: No point in being sorry.
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20:04<Samuka>what do it mean... i´m brazilian and one english studant
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20:36<narusso>debian-installer is throwing some kind of frame-buffer tantrum. And somehow the filesystem on the USB installer gets corrupted. blah.
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20:38<wimble>hi all, i am having issues getting sun-java5-jre working on debian etch amd64, what is the bets method to use?
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20:40<gsimmons>narusso: You can disable the framebuffer using the boot parameter "fb=false".
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20:43<narusso>gsimmons: will that keep the installer from drawing all the red and blue screens? (that would be nice)
20:44<narusso>wimble: trouble installing sun-java5-jre, or using the apps inside it? I just installed it recently, and it was a bit annoying due to the license, but I didn't really try using it.
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20:50<gsimmons>narusso: Not sure that I understand you. By "red and blue screens", do you mean the installation dialogs (eg. "choose language") from d-i?
20:52<narusso>gsimmons: yup, I've preseeded all the questions, so I don't need to see them.
20:53<narusso>gsimmons: after switching between the first and second consoles a few times, it gets screwed up, and starts drawing things on the wrong one.
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21:17<mzhang>dli_: there?
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21:20<mzhang>how to use cp to defrag the whole root (same as home) partition?
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21:23<mzhang>JasonS: defragment, i.e. copy stuff out and copy back to get better efficiency.
21:24<JasonS>i know what it is actually mzhang but its not necessary
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21:24<JasonS>not even sure if theres a defrag app for nix file systems
21:24<mzhang>JasonS: my jfs runs too slow especially on hdd access, I wonder if it is the fragment.
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21:25<mzhang>JasonS: I don't think there was, that's why I think I can do this by cp or dd.
21:25<mzhang>JasonS: but I need idea how to implement the whole thing, because it includes /.
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21:31<gsimmons>mzhang: There's a JFS-specific defragmentation example at <>. I'd imagine you would want to use a live CD.
21:32<mzhang>gsimmons: thanks a bunch
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21:59<saltmiser>so, how about that demonoid
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22:14<tweakt>still messing with compiz... no luck, runs but no window manager comes up, so not usable (I get all borderless windows)
22:14<tweakt>I've tried with sid, but ran into gnome breakage with 2.6.20 going in, so i'm running lenny now. same exact issue
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22:16<miksuh>tweakt: have you chanmged the xoeg.conf?
22:16<miksuh>damn typos..
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22:17<tweakt>miksuh, I have all the recommended options (compsite, xaaoffscreen, addargb)
22:17<tedp>is it safe to run ubuntu & debian clients through the same apt-cacher? i have a vague memory that i tried it a couple of years ago and got a bunch of checksum mismatches for same-version-but-different-contents packages
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22:17<miksuh>tedp: I'm not 100% sure what you mean but you should not mix debian and ubuntu packages
22:18<miksuh>it wont work
22:19<fsateler>tedp: AFAIK, ubuntu uses different version numbers from Debian (X.Y.Z-Wubuntu0
22:20<tedp>miksuh: both ubuntu and debian workstations (single distro each) but sharing an apt-cacher
22:20<tedp>i think because ubuntu recompiles everything you end up with different binaries, even if the source packages were identical
22:21<miksuh>As I said don't try to install debian packlages to ubuntu or ubuntu packages to debian
22:21<tweakt>miksuh, I can manually run gtk-window-decorator and I'm watching it with strace, it seems to be doing stuff. but still I got no window borders
22:21<miksuh>it will just create big mess
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22:22<tedp>miksuh: thanks. i'm not mixing installed packages, just what might be in the cache
22:23<tweakt>I can run cairo-clock and I get a beatiful drop shadow clock
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23:04<eins7ein>I need help configuring sound on my laptop
23:05<eins7ein>I have a realtek HD audio codec on it but for some reason even after installing the drivers I get no sound
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23:08<eins7ein>can anyone help me
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23:21<eins7ein>I need help configuring sound on my laptop
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23:27<fsateler>eins7ein: your laptop has only one sound card?
23:27<eins7ein>its the realtek stuff
23:28<eins7ein>why would it have several sound cards
23:28<fsateler>no reason, but if you had several, you might be outputting sound to the wrong one
23:29<fsateler>do you have the driver loaded?
23:29<eins7ein>as far as I can tell
23:29<fsateler>which driver is for your sound card?
23:29<brownie17>trying to convert a vid from RM to AVI with mencoder, get this error; "LAVF: no audio or video headers found - broken file?"
23:29<eins7ein>I downloaded the realtek linux drivers from their website and ran the intsall
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23:29<eins7ein>just a sec I'll link
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23:30<eins7ein>I downloaded both the linux drivers and ran the install
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23:31<eins7ein>is there some config file I need to play with or a dpkg I can dl
23:32<fsateler>what does lspci say?
23:33<eins7ein>I had to dl a bunch of different stuff for my wireless and run a daemon is there something like that I need to do in X
23:33<eins7ein>what is that
23:33<fsateler>open a console and run lspci
23:33<eins7ein>what should I be looking for
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23:34<fsateler>a line that mentions your audio device
23:34<eins7ein>00:1b.0 Audio device: Intel Corporation 82801G (ICH7 Family) High Definition Audio Controller (rev 02)
23:35<fsateler>duh, there is something we can try that is simpler
23:35<fsateler>try running (as root): dpkg-reconfigure linux-sound-base
23:37<eins7ein>which should I be choosing
23:37<fsateler>what options are shown?
23:38<fsateler>choose alsa
23:38<eins7ein>it just went back to the terminal
23:38<Vakio>Google says that Realtek sound cards might not work with old versions of ALSA.
23:39<eins7ein>no sound still
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23:39<Vakio>Realtek HD, that is.
23:39<eins7ein>that is what I have
23:39<fsateler>try running (as a normal user): alsamixer
23:39<fsateler>Vakio: how old?
23:39<eins7ein>I bought the laptop a couple months ago
23:40<novvv>hi all!
23:40<eins7ein>since the realtek website only shows an AC97 and an HD codec it has to be one of those
23:40<eins7ein>the toshiba website says it's the HD codec
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23:41<eins7ein>what should I be doing w/ alsamixer
23:42<fsateler>are volumes up and not muted?
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23:42<fsateler>sometimes configuration utils leave speakers muted
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23:42<eins7ein>yes the volumes are all the way up
23:42|-|sindre [] has joined #debian
23:42<fsateler>hmm, that is strange
23:43<eins7ein>yes it is
23:43<fsateler>try: cat /proc/asound/cards
23:43<Vakio>fsateler: it was a Ubuntu thread, which said that the version in Feisty (1.0.13) doesn't work, but the one in Gutsy (1.0.14) should.
23:43<eins7ein> 0 [Intel ]: HDA-Intel - HDA Intel
23:43<eins7ein> HDA Intel at 0xf0b40000 irq 58
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23:44<Vakio>fsateler: Etch has 1.0.13, Lenny has 1.0.14.
23:44<fsateler>eins7ein: are you running etch?
23:44<fsateler>so maybe there is the problem
23:44<eins7ein>just installed on here last night
23:44|-|ramoonas [] has joined #debian
23:45<eins7ein>The sound equipment is fine since I get sound when I boot into windows
23:45<eins7ein>it's a dual boot system
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23:47<Vakio> doesn't seem to have it.
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23:48<eins7ein>darn battery died
23:48<eins7ein>still no sound
23:48<fsateler>eins7ein: it appears that the version of ALSA in etch is too old to handle your card
23:49<fsateler>maybe you could try upgrading to lenny?
23:49<eins7ein>is ther a way to do that without reformattin
23:49<dpkg>i heard testing is a release/suite between stable and unstable. testing currently points to lenny. See for frequently asked questions about testing. Also check out for the initial release.
23:50<fsateler>eins7ein: edit (as root) /etc/apt/sources.list
23:50<fsateler>substitute the word "etch" for "lenny"
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23:51<eins7ein>you mean I should change etch to lenny
23:51<eins7ein>it already says etch
23:52<fsateler>etch -> lenny
23:53<eins7ein>then just do an apt-get update ?
23:53<fsateler>be warned, however
23:53<fsateler>this upgrade will probably bring _lots_ of pakages in
23:54<eins7ein>seems to have only brought in 12
23:54<eins7ein>what should I be doing next now that I ran apt-get update
23:55<fsateler>aptitude dist-upgrade
23:55<fsateler>or apt-get dist-upgrade
23:55<fsateler>whichever tool you prefer
23:55<fsateler>this is the one that will bring lots of packages in
23:55<eins7ein>got it
23:56<eins7ein>only bringing in 644 mb not too bad
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23:56<eins7ein>it is bringing in alot
23:56<fsateler>eins7ein: before upgrading, do you know what lenny is?
23:57<fsateler>it is not a release yet, so stuff will be continuously upgrading
23:57<eins7ein>nope but it's a little too late I just started it
23:57<eins7ein>hopefully that will be helpful
23:58<eins7ein>do I need to restart after the update?
23:58<fsateler>it depends
23:58<eins7ein>I guess it will tell me
23:58<fsateler>usually, you should not need to
23:59<eins7ein>so should the version of ALSA in lenny work with my sound
23:59<fsateler>according to the thread Vakio mentioned, yes
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---Logclosed Thu Sep 27 00:00:07 2007