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#debian IRC Logs for 2011-09-25

---Logopened Sun Sep 25 00:00:12 2011
---Daychanged Sun Sep 25 2011
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01:37<Esteban>well there goes a day of my life
01:37<Esteban>these "new" packaged nvidia drivers totally fucked starcraft2 in wine
01:37<Esteban>and the debugging process took longer than expected
01:38<Esteban>seems the video hardware itself needed _cold_ booting to get better
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01:38<Esteban>fixed now, all nvidia related packages held at previous version
01:39<Esteban>libcuda1 libcuda1-ia32 libgl1-nvidia-alternatives libgl1-nvidia-alternatives-ia32 libgl1-nvidia-glx libgl1-nvidia-glx-ia32 libglx-nvidia-alternatives libnvidia-compiler libnvidia-compiler-ia32 libnvidia-ml1 nvidia-alternative nvidia-glx nvidia-glx-ia32 nvidia-kernel-dkms nvidia-kernel-source nvidia-libopencl1 nvidia-libopencl1-ia32 nvidia-opencl-common nvidia-opencl-icd nvidia-opencl-icd-ia32 nvidia-smi nvidia-vdpau-driver nvidia-vdpau-dri
01:39<Esteban>those ones
01:39<Esteban>at 280.13-1
01:39<Esteban>not this crazy 280.13.really.275.28-1 business
01:39<Esteban>now wine and starcraft 2 work again
01:40<Esteban>it's all sunshine and roses
01:41<Esteban>thank whoever is responsible for
01:41<Esteban>although it is really slow on the first couple of queries
01:41<Esteban>cancelling the update/download and using wget for the same file seemed to wake it up
01:42<Esteban>then everything is peachy
01:42<Esteban>strange, but I'm sure there's a logical explanation
01:42<Esteban>by slow i mean 800 bytes per second
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02:07<jardiamj>lindi: I thought you might want to know. A Bios update fixed the problem I had when suspending my laptop to disk... thanks for your help.
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02:09<jardiamj>lindi-,: I thought you might want to know. A Bios update fixed the problem I had when suspending my laptop to disk... thanks for your help.
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02:11<matsp888>regarding BIOS updates, i wish the companies had better support for updating from linux...
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02:16<jardiamj>matsp888, I wish that too... I wish I Nvidia would give support for the Optimus technology under linux...
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02:26<matsp888>that would be nice, yes
02:27<matsp888>linux is still of marginal interest to the big boys, i'm afraid
02:27<matsp888>with some exceptions
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02:32<wols>optimus cannot work due to the architecture of Xorg. you need a very big Xorg rewrite to do it
02:35<jardiamj>wols, that's what I've read so far. I also read about some kind of official support for hybrid graphic in linux in the future...
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02:38<jardiamj>but it's a little frustrating to get an expensive laptop with features that you cannot take advantage of.
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02:38<jardiamj>I don't want to switch to Windows 7 just for that..
02:38<Bushmills>inform first. buy after.
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02:40<dEhiN>jardiamj: what's the Optimus technology?
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02:40<jardiamj>Bushmills, I investigated quite a bit before getting my laptop. But that just slipped off my mind
02:41<jardiamj>dEhiN, It's Nvidia's hybrid graphics technology
02:43<Bushmills>there's a google summer of code project towards supporting ion/optimus. i forgot its name
02:43<Bushmills>then there's vga_switcheroo, compilable into kernels, to switch video controllers between reboots
02:43<dEhiN>was googling hybrid graphics but not following what the big deal is
02:45<Bushmills>essentially two video controllers. the power hungry 3d-accelerated controller turned on on demand
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02:46<dEhiN>just read an article about win7 not offering native support for hybrid graphics (from nov 2008) -
02:47<dEhiN>and also found a blogspot blog of people trying to incorporate hybrid graphics support for linux -
02:47<dEhiN>not sure though if these are relevant
02:47<jardiamj>but if I want to use the Nvidia card it has to be rendered through the Intel card
02:47<jardiamj>there is a project called bumblebee, I know about it...
02:48<jardiamj>but it's and ugly hack, and a hassle to get it working
02:48<wols>vga_switcheroo is in wheezy. doesn't need reboots either but Xorg restarts. then there is bumblebee, which can work depending how optimus is designed in your laptop but is a big kludge
02:48<wols>might be orphaned now too
02:50<dEhiN>what keymap do I use in debian that's equivalent to unitedstates-international in windows?
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02:56<Bushmills>how much does iwndows unitedstates-international differ from linux us keymap?
02:56<Bushmills>windows, even
02:57<dEhiN>well the us-i keymap on windows lets you type vowels with accents by typing '+vowel (é, á)
02:57<dEhiN>and same with "+vowel (ë,ä)
02:58<dEhiN>and same with '+c = ç
02:58<dEhiN>and same with `+vowel (è,à)
02:58<dEhiN>so then to actually type a quote, I have to type '+space or "+space
02:58<Zaba>that's horrible
02:59<dEhiN>not really, it's an easy way to type in langs that use accented vowels and the latin alphabet (french, spanish, etc)
02:59<dEhiN>otherwise I would have to switch the keymap everytime I want to type in spanish or french or italian or...
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03:00<dEhiN>but is this possible in linux? or do I have to install multiple keymaps and switch between them?
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03:00<mrw>you could use the compose key
03:01<mrw>err, you could set compose to some key and then use that
03:01<valdyn>dEhiN: dead keys enable accents too
03:01<dEhiN>dead keys?
03:02<Zaba>dead keys is exactly what you're talking about, I think
03:02<valdyn>dEhiN: what you explained for windows i think
03:03<dEhiN>yeah I just googled it and realized dead keys is what I'm referring to...the us-i keymap on windows uses dead keys
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03:04<dEhiN>can both X and the terminal support dead keys?
03:04<valdyn>dEhiN: yes
03:04<dEhiN>do I have to set a specific keymap?
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03:05<valdyn>dEhiN: thats a seperate setting i think so should work with any keymap
03:05<valdyn>dEhiN: or seperate flag even
03:05<dpkg>Squeeze users: run "dpkg-reconfigure keyboard-configuration" to change both your console and X keymap. Lenny users: run "dpkg-reconfigure console-data" to change the console keymap (use loadkeys for temporary adjustments) -- to change the X keymap, read "man xmodmap" and ask me about <xorg config lenny>; gnome-control-center and kcontrol can also be used. For setting up X keymaps, see xkeycaps, xev and ask me about <multimedia keys>.
03:06<Aketzu>ls /usr/share/keymaps/i386/qwerty/us*
03:07<dEhiN>ok so then on a fresh install, I can just select (for ex) american english and then once the base is installed run "dpkg-reconfigure keyboard-configuration"?
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03:07<valdyn>dEhiN: yes
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03:11<dEhiN>ok thanks all
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03:12<dEhiN>can I select tmpfs for my /tmp logical partition?
03:13<dEhiN>I don't see it though in the graphical installer
03:14<valdyn>dEhiN: you would have to do it manually
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03:15<Zaba>um, you can't have a tmpfs partition
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03:16<Zaba>it's in-memory, it doesn't exist on the disk
03:16<dEhiN>so then is there a point to having a /tmp partition in addition to tmpfs?
03:17<valdyn>dEhiN: "partition" is the wrong word
03:17<valdyn>dEhiN: or was, for you first question
03:17<Zaba>partition is a part of the disk. It can hold a filesystem.
03:17<dEhiN>well then what's the right word? mount point?
03:18<valdyn>dEhiN: i dont see a point of having tmpfs /tmp
03:18<dEhiN>then why, in the lvm manager, can I select /tmp as a mountpoint?
03:18<Zaba>because you can make an on-disk filesystem and mount it at /tmp
03:18<Bushmills>there may be a point having /tmp on tmpfs with flash-only machines
03:19<dEhiN>is there a need for it?
03:19<Zaba>depends on the amount of RAM
03:19<Zaba>if you have a lot, then you can use tmpfs and be just fine
03:19<Zaba>if you don't have much, you're probably better off with a /tmp on disk
03:19<dEhiN>how is /tmp different from your swap?
03:20<Zaba>swap is an extension to RAM
03:20<Bushmills>you can touch /tmp/foo
03:20<Zaba>/tmp is used by userland programs to store temporary stuff
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03:20<valdyn>dEhiN: tmp is used on the filesytem layer for applications to store stuff, swap is used on the *kernel* layer to store stuff
03:20<dEhiN>if I have no /tmp, then will those programs use tmpfs in ram?
03:20<Zaba>they will fail greatly
03:20<Zaba>because many things assume that /tmp exists and is writable
03:21<dEhiN>so I should have /tmp?
03:21<dEhiN>then what is tmpfs?
03:21<Bushmills>akin to "if i have no /home directory, will programs use my harddisk instead?"
03:21<Zaba>dEhiN, it's a filesystem that uses RAM, instead of disk, to store data
03:21<Zaba>dEhiN, obviously all of its contents disappear upon reboot, which is what makes it so fitting for use on /tmp
03:22<dEhiN>right and which "land" uses the tmpfs? apps or kernel?
03:22<Zaba>dEhiN, programs use /tmp, they don't care if it's tmpfs or some other filesystem
03:22<dEhiN>like I'm not getting how /tmp, swap and tmpfs all work together
03:23<Zaba>dEhiN, you can choose to mount tmpfs at /tmp and then programs will use it, transparently
03:23<Bushmills>none, unless your mounted tmpfs somewhere. when it's used by whatever can and does address files and directories per path there
03:23<dEhiN>so I guess that's what I meant in my initial question
03:23<Zaba>dEhiN, /tmp is a -normal- filesystem, it's just conventionally used to store temporary files
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03:24<Zaba>dEhiN, swap is simply extension to your physical RAM, and the kernel can swap memory from RAM to swap and back as it chooses
03:24<Bushmills>while tmpfs is a bit the opposite. it is an extension of your hard disk in RAMN
03:24<dEhiN>so if I'm going to mount tmpfs at /tmp, then do I still need to create a logical partition for /tmp?
03:25<Zaba>dEhiN, no
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03:25<valdyn>dEhiN: why are you considering messing with this when you obviously dont know the implications?
03:25<dEhiN>well I'm trying to understand how it all works
03:25<dEhiN>I don't want to mess with it per se...just understand
03:25<valdyn>dEhiN: its not that simple
03:26<Bushmills>well. you mount it some place, and what you write there stays in RAM, rather than going to your harddisk
03:26<valdyn>dEhiN: but it usually doesnt matter at all which one you chose, so why chose at all
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03:27<dEhiN>then as far as my installation is concerned, should I just stick with creating a logical partition mounted at /tmp and not worry about tmpfs?
03:27<Bushmills>why would you need an extra partition for /tmp?
03:28<Zaba>dEhiN, you can just not create a separate partition/filesystem for tmp
03:28<Zaba>then it will be part of your / filesystem
03:28<valdyn>dEhiN: its far more important that each of your partition is of sufficient size to accomodate whatever need arises later than splitting up into several partitions
03:28<mrw>Bushmills: pre-tmpfs, so you could mount it noexec. plus not running up /
03:28<mrw>Bushmills: which you can then mount ro
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03:29<valdyn>lets not require him to fix dpkg later on
03:29<dEhiN>ok, then I'll just create a bigger root partition and delete the separate tmp partition
03:29<Bushmills>mrw: you figure that dEhiN is in need of that?
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03:30<Zaba>dEhiN, it might make sense, with lvm, to not use up all of your PV immediately, so you have some space for new LVs if you need them
03:30<Zaba>since resizing LVs and most filesystems is possible/easy anyway
03:30<mrw>Bushmills: thought that was a general 'you', not a 'you' directed at him. whoops
03:30<Bushmills>context :)
03:31<dEhiN>Zaba: this is a virtual machine so I'm not worried about using up all my PV..I can always create more HD space as need be
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03:47<dEhiN>what's the channel for general linux questions (off-topic to specific debian squeeze)
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03:48<grummund>depends on the question :P
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03:52<dEhiN>posted my question in #debian-offtopic
03:52<dEhiN>it's a linux/windows question, something I can do in linux but not sure the equiv in windows
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03:53<grummund>dEhiN: ##windows then
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03:54<dEhiN>grummund, thanks didn't know the channel existed
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03:57<wols>dEhiN: ##windows on freenode that is
03:58<grummund>oops, yes. sorry.
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04:00<dEhiN>wols thanks, joined ##windows on oftc and couldn't figure out why nobody else was on the channel!
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04:04<amitz>i bet ##windows is trolled more than #linux
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04:06<grummund>not in my experience... YMMV ;)
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04:09<ompaul>amitz: na
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04:17<jardiamj>I'm running Squeeze, do I have to update to Wheezy if i want to use vga switcheroo?
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04:22<dpkg> (formerly is an official repository of <backports> for the current stable distribution, prepared by Debian developers. Read to enable and use. See also <bdo kernel> <bdo mirrors> <bdo contents> <bdo list> <bdo bugs> <bdo pinning> <bdo key> <backports-sloppy> <bdo xorg>.
04:22<Bushmills>backport kernel might do - i think it comes fromon 2.6.38 kernels
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04:23<sil>olá a todos
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04:24<jardiamj>I have backport kernel installed..
04:24<jardiamj>but there is nothing in /sys/kernel/debug
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04:25<jardiamj>my kernel is 2.6.39
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04:27<valdyn>jardiamj: you need to mount debugfs. I think thats probably not done by default on squeeze
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04:29<valdyn>jardiamj: or the init script to mount debugs is in the blktrace package it seems
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04:31<valdyn>judd: versions blktrace
04:31<judd>Package: blktrace on i386 -- lenny: 0.99.3+git-20080213182518-1; sid: 1.0.1-2; squeeze: 1.0.1-2; wheezy: 1.0.1-2
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04:33<jardiamj>valdyn, mount: can't find debugfs in /etc/fstab or /etc/mtab
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04:38<jardiamj>I installed blktrace, but still vgaswitcheroo is not in /sys/kernel/debug
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04:40<Bushmills>grep SWITCH /boot/config-*
04:41<Bushmills>or better, grep VGA_SWITCHEROO /boot/config-*
04:41<Bushmills>the corresponding kernel is fine
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04:42<valdyn>....but debugfs isnt mounted?
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04:42<jardiamj>mount: can't find debugfs in /etc/fstab or /etc/mtab, when trying to mount
04:43<valdyn>jardiamj: do you understand what an init script is?
04:43<valdyn>jardiamj: run "/etc/init.d/mountdebugfs start"
04:44<valdyn>jardiamj: it doesnt hurt to ask when you dont understand
04:44<jardiamj>valdyn, thanks... sorry
04:45<jardiamj>Debugfs is already mounted on /sys/kernel/debug; nothing to do.
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04:45<valdyn>jardiamj: ok, so theres stuff in /sys/kernel/debug
04:45<jardiamj>there is stuff..
04:46<valdyn>jardiamj: and debugfs is mounted as should be seen in "df -a | grep debug"
04:46<jardiamj>but there is no vgaswitcheroo
04:47<valdyn>jardiamj: its not enabled for some reason i cant tell
04:47<wols>jardiamj: what laptop is it?
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04:48<Bushmills>are you actually running the recent kernel?
04:48<valdyn>jardiamj: this stuff im reading sais that you need a kernel parameter on boot
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04:48<wols>valdyn: I don't
04:48<valdyn>wols: meaning? that you dont need a kernel parameter?
04:49<wols>yes, no parameter
04:49<jardiamj>It's a thinkpad t420
04:49<wols>IIRC I did need wheezy (or at least the backports kernel
04:49<valdyn>jardiamj: "uname -r"
04:49<jardiamj>my kernel is from backports
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04:50<wols>IIRC I had to mount the debugfs and then it was there, nothing else needed
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04:51<wols>jardiamj: are you running backport Xorg too?
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04:54<wols>jardiamj: I don't need debugfs it seems. at least "mount" doesn't show it. but there is a /sys/kernel/debug/vgaswitcheroo with kernel 2.6.39 (back when it was the standard kernel in testing)
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04:54<wols>jardiamj: what have you set in BIOS for display? what does lspci say?
04:54<wols>btw, I have T400, ati hybrid graphics, not optimus
04:55<jardiamj>lscpi show my two graphic cards
04:55<jardiamj>and it looks like both are running all the time
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04:55<jardiamj>mine has Optimus, and it's anabled in the BIOS
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04:55<wols>jardiamj: dmesg |grep vga
04:56<wols>rather: dmesg |grep -i vga
04:56<jardiamj>[ 0.000000] Console: colour VGA+ 80x25
04:56<jardiamj>[ 6.796992] VGA switcheroo: detected DSM switching method \_SB_.PCI0.PEG_.VID_ handle
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04:57<wols>please pastebin the full output
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04:58<wols>are you disabling DRM?
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05:00<wols>so have you disabled DRM or KMS?
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05:00<wols>for me, vga_switcheroo gives only the "vga_switcheroo: enabled" printk when DRM has been loaded
05:01<jardiamj>What is DRM?
05:01<dpkg>from memory, drm is Direct Rendering Manager, a <DRI> component (,, or Digital Rights Management (
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05:03<jardiamj>I found the wikipedia one, didn't make much sense
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05:07<wols>it's the DRI/DRM one, not digital restriction management
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05:07<jardiamj>wols, as I know I haven't desabled it..
05:08<jardiamj>and I can see it here: /lib/modules/2.6.39-bpo.2-amd64/kernel/drivers/gpu/drm
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05:09<Guest11525>I, I want to install KDE but how I can install it without having double-applications In KDE ? (like Empathy - Kopete , etc.) NB: I want to keep Gnome. Thanks! :)
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05:10<valdyn>Guest11525: you would have double applications on gnome too
05:10<wols>and what part of kde do you actaully wantß
05:11<valdyn>Guest11525: those menus are autogenerated, and the autogenerator cant tell kde apart from gnome
05:11<valdyn>Guest11525: what you can do is edit those menus manually
05:11<themill>Actually, there is a "don't show KDE stuff in GNOME" option and should be vice versa.
05:11<valdyn>oh really, i havent seen that
05:12<valdyn>themill: where?
05:12<babilen>Guest11525: You might want to install KDE using one of the smaller metapackages (i.e. kde-plasma-desktop) which will not pull in all kde related applications. "/msg dpkg install kde4" for a short overview of the available packages.
05:12<Guest11525>Oh, ok ... I think I install : kde-standard and kde-plasma-desktop paquages, it's good?
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05:13<valdyn>Guest11525: i think we dont know what you really want: kde applications in kde and gnome applications in gnome, or one of each set for both
05:13<wols>no it's not kde-standard includes plasma-desktop and it will install all the kde apps too
05:13<wols>!tell Guest11525 about install kde
05:13<babilen>Guest11525: No, not kde-standard which includes other packages you might not want. But is is your system, install whatever you want :)
05:14<Guest11525>Okay, so just kde-plasma-desktop?
05:14<Guest11525>It's just to try KDE on Debian and may be remove Gnome
05:14<themill>valdyn: meh... can't find it. It's part of the .desktop spec/extensions to spec and has been discussed a few times.
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05:15<Guest11525>Thanks all for your help, really. Have a nice day :-)
05:15<babilen>Guest11525: You too
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05:15<Guest11525>babilen : Thanks :3
05:16<themill>OnlyShowIn=GNOME; and NotShowIn=KDE; etc
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05:20<wols>jardiamj: dmesg |grep -i drm
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05:22<jardiamj>it has and unsupported chipset for nouveau at the end
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05:32<jardiamj>I'm stuck!
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05:38<jardiamj>wols: I'm stuck! reading through posts and other things but no answer...
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05:45<valdyn>jardiamj: /msg dpkg kmuto
05:45<valdyn>jardiamj: err sorry, "/msg dpkg which driver"
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05:46<wols>valdyn: but .39 should support the nvs4200. it's the same chip as in geforce 430
05:46<wols>update-pciid and maybe a 3.0 kernel?
05:47<valdyn>update-pciids has nothing to do with this
05:47<valdyn>but he should figure out if he needs 3.0 yes
05:47<wols>babilen: yours doesn't have the nvidia, right?
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05:48<babilen>wols: No, it does not as I made sure that I do not buy this optimus crapola. Otherwise I should know about this. I am using a t420 quite fine with 3.0
05:50<dEhiN>how much space should I give the swap partition if the physical ram will be between 1-2GB? keep in mind this is a virtual machine I'm installing to so I can increase the ram available (host has 12GB total)
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05:50<valdyn>dEhiN: 1-2GB
05:51<wols>babilen: my ati non-optimus hybrid graphics works fien with switcheroo as well
05:51<valdyn>dEhiN: or leave swapping to the host
05:52<valdyn>( i dont actually know the characteristics of that )
05:53<valdyn>dEhiN: what is preferable, a system that becomes unusuably slow or one that kills processes instead
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05:53<babilen>wols: Yeah, optimus is particularly problematic. But I still consider the two graphic card approach to be suboptimal and wrong.
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05:53<dEhiN>valdyn: neither
05:53<wols>babilen: what is the alternative?
05:54<valdyn>dEhiN: theres no 3rd option
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05:54<babilen>wols: One graphic card
05:54<jardiamj>I've done a lot of reading tonight
05:55<dEhiN>valdyn: how so? I can set the swap as high as I need during install, and then also set the ram available to vm high before bootup
05:56<valdyn>dEhiN: can you guarantee that you system will never run out of ram?
05:56<jardiamj>pasting my lspci -n here:
05:56<valdyn>dEhiN: i know you cant
05:56<valdyn>dEhiN: this corner case is what huge swap is used for
05:56<jardiamj>doesn't list my graphic card when I click check
05:56<valdyn>dEhiN: but if huge swap is not there then you will get processes killed instead
05:57<valdyn>dEhiN: theres no use in ignoring that corner case
05:57<jardiamj>any suggestion? get kernel 3.0?
05:58<valdyn>dEhiN: depending on workload your system might be crawling at 1/2 ram swap usage or even earlier
05:59<dEhiN>valdyn: ok, I see your last time I had a debian guest I had a 6.5GB swap, but don't think I need that big do I? esp when I barely did anything on the guest and ran it with 1GB ram
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05:59<valdyn>dEhiN: i would say in most cases your system would be unusuably slow at 1G swap used
06:00<valdyn>dEhiN: but theres also cases where you must have more than 10G swap for an fsck
06:00<dEhiN>would 2GB be decent enough?
06:00<valdyn>dEhiN: likely, but as i said this is workload dependent
06:01<valdyn>dEhiN: on a desktop i would always prefer offending processes to be killed
06:01<valdyn>dEhiN: on a server I probably would not
06:01<dEhiN>well I'm not sure what my workload will this is a vm, and I'm installing it to get familiar again with linux, I don't foresee heavy usage at first
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06:01<dEhiN>what do you mean by offending?
06:02<valdyn>dEhiN: the one eating all your ram
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06:02<valdyn>dEhiN: do something stupid with a huge amount of swap and best option will be a reboot
06:02<dEhiN>well this would be a desktop, so I don't want any offending processes
06:02<CyON>hey this is cool .........all I want is here......
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06:03<valdyn>dEhiN: do the same stupid thing without swap and that process will most probably just be killed in a few seconds and you can resume your work
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06:04<dEhiN>valdyn: that doesn't really help me then would you recommend for a non-heavy usage to leave my swap at 6.5GB? or reduce to 3GB? or even 2GB?
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06:05<valdyn>dEhiN: thats to big
06:05<valdyn>dEhiN: 1G is fine
06:06<dEhiN>even to run X? again, doing basic things like surfing the web, etc.
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06:06<valdyn>dEhiN: the perfect choice is not easy to make. If you want offending processes be killed, make swap to small, if you dont , make it to big
06:06<valdyn>dEhiN: everything else is to hard to figure out
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06:07<valdyn>dEhiN: 1G ram is not enough, swap cant fix that
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06:07<dEhiN>ok thanks I didn't know that
06:08<dEhiN>thought swap worked like an extension to ram, akin to pagefile on windows
06:08<Bushmills>how much swap you need depends on your usage pattern. observer the actual use. if you find you're using a lot of swap space, add RAM.
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06:08<steinex>Hi. Squeeze-Laptop does neither shutdown nor hibernate when power is critical. Any hints where to start debug this issue?
06:08<valdyn>dEhiN: "surfing the web" may be basic to you, but its one of the most complex things you can possibly do
06:08<Bushmills>observe, even
06:08<tzafrir>Anybody knows of a decent webm encoder?
06:09<tzafrir>ffmpeg / avconv fails to give me a decent file size
06:09<dEhiN>ok thanks all, I think I'll stick with 2GB swap and adjust ram as needed
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06:10<Bushmills>consider swap a fall-back for sporadic memory peaks, not as a measure to balance off too little RAM
06:10<melmothX>how can be 1Gb or RAM be "too little"?
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06:10<Bushmills>"usage pattern"
06:11<valdyn>melmothX: multiple flash plugins, multiple tabs, multiple web browser windows
06:11<valdyn>melmothX: thats very easy to use up
06:11<melmothX>i have 1Gb of ram and 256Mb of swap and things are pretty fine
06:11<melmothX>i hardly swap over 50Mb
06:11<valdyn>melmothX: "fine" is subjective
06:12<EmleyMoor>Depends what you're doing, too
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06:12<ompaul>melmothX: I've run some very strange code that needed to be done on 16G of ram with 32G of swap
06:12<melmothX>desktop usage, even gaming and compilation
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06:12<Bushmills>"nobody will ever need more than 640 kB"
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06:12<ompaul>melmothX: data crunching in minutes rather than days
06:12<melmothX>ompaul: that's just insane, no desktop can run that
06:13<valdyn>i already told about the fsck case
06:13<ompaul>melmothX: it wasn't a desktop, but start generating your own isos
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06:13<ompaul>melmothX: and you'll want as much fast ram as you can afford
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06:15<melmothX>ompaul: having 4Gb of ram for normal desktop usage is just too much, for a debian system
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06:15<Bushmills>melmothX is obviously not running multiple VMs, different OS on each
06:15<valdyn>melmothX: i need about that
06:15<melmothX>a waste of money, at least
06:15<melmothX>Bushmills: i'm not, htat's not "normal desktop usage"
06:15<Bushmills>isn't it?
06:15<Bushmills>so what *is* "normal usage" then?
06:16<melmothX>the point of an OS is that doesn't replicate routines
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06:16<melmothX>you need _normally_ 1 OS
06:16<valdyn>maybe a webbrowser with 30 tabs open is
06:16<ompaul>melmothX: your use case is YOURS not mine
06:16<Bushmills>is a graphical desktop "normal usage"?
06:16<dEhiN>normal usage is web browsing, document editing/creation, spreadsheet editing/creation
06:16<melmothX>the dude was asking for "normal usage"
06:16-!-An [~An@] has quit []
06:16<Bushmills>ah. ok. frame buffer should do.
06:16<melmothX>the answer is not 4Gb and 8Gb of swap
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06:16<valdyn>dEhiN: "web browsing" is so very hard to specify
06:17<ompaul>a use case does not multiple use cases
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06:17<ompaul>and normal is an abomination of a word
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06:18<dEhiN>but things like reading web pages, watching streaming videos, checking web-based things using perhaps flash, javascript, html5, css, php
06:18<melmothX>surely is, but are you going to give an answer to the person asking or not?
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06:18<valdyn>dEhiN: whatever browser you may be using, every modern browser can get to need 1G for this
06:18<melmothX>dEhiN: 1Gb or RAM and 1Gb of swap is enough. Then continue arguing until you get tired
06:19<Bushmills>my aunt is what i'd all "a normal user" but she does *not* stream videos. that shows that your "normal use" case is flawed
06:19<dEhiN>melmothX: thanks
06:19<ompaul>the correct way to set it up is 2 to 2.5 times your ram
06:19<ompaul>then hibernate and so forth all work well
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06:20<dEhiN>ompaul: ok
06:20<valdyn>ompaul: i dont think he needs hibernate in his vm
06:20<Bushmills>dEhiN: watch your *actual* swap use, not some arbitrary notion of "normal"
06:20<ompaul>it's a vm
06:20<ompaul>a vm is not a normal use case but whatever
06:21<dEhiN>Bushmills: I understand about watching actual use, but you can't tell someone who's asking while installing about watching actual use...I haven't installed my system to have actual use!
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06:21<ompaul>valdyn: you never know :)
06:21<Bushmills>you'll find out when using, not while installing
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06:22<dpkg>Swap is RAM you wish you had. Generally it is said that for low amounts of RAM (say, less than 2GB), you should have twice the RAM as swap. You don't have to have a swap partition either, as you can always create a <swap file> and use that. See also <am i swapping>.
06:22<dEhiN>Bushmills: exactly, but unless I can easily adjust my swap on-the-fly during actual usage, I can't figure out how much swap to set while installing based on usage!
06:22<SynrG>can we just leave it at that and move on?
06:22<SynrG>unless you are really pinched for space, the whole argument is moot
06:23<dEhiN>sure I think I have enough info to figure out a solution
06:23<valdyn>dEhiN: you can, easily
06:23<dEhiN>valdyn: easily do what? adjust swap on-the-fly?
06:23<valdyn>dEhiN: yes
06:23<dEhiN>how so?
06:23<dba>there are some kernel patches to do vary swap size on demand, but you don't want to use that i guess.
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06:23<valdyn>dEhiN: files can be used as swap space, swapon and swapoff add / remove swap space
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06:24<valdyn>dEhiN: so you can have any number of files of any size can add / remove them
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06:24<dEhiN>for now I think I'll stick with creating a specific swap partition
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06:25<SynrG>also in a VM you can easily destroy and recreate an entire swap *drive* so it should be trivial to resize.
06:25<SynrG>you don't have repartitioning to consider
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06:26<dEhiN>SynrG: this is true, and I'm not worried about resizing or adding more swap...I was just trying to figure out how much to setup during install
06:26<valdyn>dEhiN: you dont need any to install
06:27<SynrG>the rule of thumb is twice the RAM. some people like to microoptimize ...
06:27<SynrG>and some have truly constrained environments (e.g. eeepc model 4G has a 4G flash drive :)
06:27<SynrG>if you fall in neither of these categories, use the rule of thumb
06:27<dEhiN>ok, sounds good
06:28<jardiamj>I'm still unable to use vga switcheroo to turn off my Nvidia graphic card
06:28<jardiamj>and I don't know if getting kernel 3.0 will make any difference..
06:29<jardiamj>because pasting the output of lspci -n here:
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06:29<jardiamj>gives me just blank for my Nvidia card
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06:33<jardiamj>I'll continue with this tomorrow...
06:33<jardiamj>good night!!!
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07:09<hankintosh>morning all
07:13<hankintosh>here to confirm a bug/feature. procps appears to only start in run level S, resulting in /etc/sysctl.d/*.conf files not being parsed. Anyone know if this is deliberate?
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07:38<Dentych>Hello. When I run MAN I get this error message: "man: can't set the locale; make sure $LC_* and $LANG are correct" . I tried reconfiguring locales and re-installing locales - I also cleaned the "/etc/locale.gen" file. What can I else do to fix this error?
07:38<bartm>Dentych, what's the value of $LANG ? echo $LANG
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07:39<Black_Prince>and does locale -a list da_DK.utf8 ?
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07:40<Gh0Sty2K>i got a small problem with wine and itunes 7.2, when i run winecfg to modify the audio tab it crashes out with the following
07:40<Gh0Sty2K>Unhandled page fault on read access to 0x00000000 at address 0x7edcfcf1 (thread 004b), starting debugger...
07:40<Gh0Sty2K>any idea how to fix this?
07:41<Black_Prince>Gh0Sty2K, not debian related problem. Try asking on #winehq on freenode
07:41<babilen>Gh0Sty2K: /me recommends not using iTunes or seeking support in #winehq on (also check the winehq application database for the iTunes support status)
07:41<Dentych>Black_Prince & bartm: Apparently, I just fixed it. I tried reconfiguring locales and using da_DK.UTF-8 and en_GB.UTF-8 and now it does not give me that error anymore
07:41<Dentych>Thanks for your assistance and also very quick answer :)
07:41<Gh0Sty2K>:) thanks, and good point
07:41<bartm>Dentych, you see, this is a great channel :)
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07:42<Dentych>It sure is :)
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07:57<XeonBloomfield>I get audio problems with PulseAudio when it is running at 0 priority
07:57<XeonBloomfield>Currently I set up -11 priority for it, and sound works better, but breaks still are time to time
07:58<XeonBloomfield>-20 will help with breaks, don't you think?
07:58<XeonBloomfield>-20 = realtime
07:59<valdyn>XeonBloomfield: are you not using the realtime-scheduling and high-priority flags in /etc/pulse/daemon.conf ?
07:59<XeonBloomfield>valdyn: I am using high-priority flag in that file
08:00<XeonBloomfield>valdyn: I am going to use realtime-scheduling instead of high-priority
08:00<valdyn>XeonBloomfield: so its probably not useful to renice it
08:00<XeonBloomfield>valdyn: I don't renice it ;)
08:00<XeonBloomfield>valdyn: high-priority sets nice to -11 default
08:00<valdyn>XeonBloomfield: i see
08:01<XeonBloomfield>valdyn: I had Linux MD with RAID 0 and 1 devices and high-priority worked really good
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08:02<valdyn>XeonBloomfield: i dont ever get issues, so i cant follow really
08:02<XeonBloomfield>valdyn: I changed RAID 0 to RAID 1, because I had a crash when one of disks stopped working and RAID 0 failed
08:03<XeonBloomfield>valdyn: Now I see more sound breaks than before
08:03<XeonBloomfield>valdyn: It is caused by bigger CPU consumption by Linux MD
08:03<valdyn>XeonBloomfield: sounds like your system bus has issues more than anything
08:03<XeonBloomfield>valdyn: It is old PC, I have it temporary
08:04<valdyn>XeonBloomfield: makes sense
08:04<XeonBloomfield>valdyn: I am going to buy AMD Phenom X6 1090T (6 x 3.2 GHz) and 8GB DDR3 1600 MHz
08:04<XeonBloomfield>but currently I am waiting to premiere of new 8-core AMD CPUs
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08:05<XeonBloomfield>if price will be good, I am going to buy it instead of 6-core CPU
08:05<XeonBloomfield>if not, 6-core CPU price will go down and I will pay less ;)
08:06<XeonBloomfield>valdyn: another topic
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08:06<XeonBloomfield>valdyn: I am going to change my RAID 1 working at 1 x 320 GB and 1 x 160 GB disks to RAID 10 working on 4 x 320 GB SATA2 disks ;)
08:07<XeonBloomfield>read - about 300 mb/s, write - about 120 mb/s
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08:08<XeonBloomfield>valdyn: ok, I enabled realtime-sheduling in pulseaudio's daemon.conf file ;) It will start working after reload of pulse
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08:37<dpkg>gulliv72: e possibile scaricare un sacco di software libero con
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09:29<XeonBloomfield>valdyn: I purged pulseaudio from system
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09:30<bike>hey, im having some trouble with volume management, the auto mounter or whatever doesnt mount the fs correctly, resulting in an error, this happened after an update to testing, pretty fresh install, as of last night, had htis problem before also, it seems to think that vfat is a cdrom or something
09:30<XeonBloomfield>valdyn: ALSA is enough and I don't use mumble (pulseaudio was installed with mumble)
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09:30<zhouliang>hello .my dear.
09:30<zhouliang>how are you?
09:30<bike>ext works
09:30<zhouliang>what is your name?
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09:32<zhouliang>oh,I know
09:32<dpkg>ompaul: e possibile scaricare un sacco di software libero con
09:32<ompaul>good bot
09:33<zhouliang>sorry ,I am busy ,I'll out
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09:39<bike>hmm the problem seems to be related to nautilus, but i dont have this problem on the other debian unstable/testing/squeeze
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10:09<gnufan>msg dpkg squeeze->wheezy
10:10<gnufan>I see if I have to ask I shouldn't - well I was about to do that command and thought dpkg might know better.
10:13<chealer>dpkg: squeeze->wheezy
10:13<dpkg>First, understand that testing is a pre-release distribution without security support and that you will have a bumpy ride; ask me about <moving target> <testing> <testing security>. From /etc/apt/sources.list, remove stable-specific lines like squeeze-updates and backports, and change squeeze to wheezy. "apt-get update && apt-get dist-upgrade". Need more instructions? Perhaps you should wait for a while.
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10:22<gnufan>chealer: thanks I should have made it clear I did read that bit (remembers to include the /), then extended my root partition and ran dist-upgrade (although with download-only) don't want to get too rash :) Just some irritating bug in stable and I wanted to know if it was fixed in the version from testing since it isn't fixed by the package version the bug reports says it ought to be fixed in (so probably a slightly different bug with the same symptom). I've run
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10:25<chealer>gnufan: your message was truncated at "I've run"
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10:29<chealer>dpkg: no, squeeze->wheezy is <reply>First, understand that testing is a pre-release distribution so that you will have a bumpy ride; ask me about <moving target> <testing>. Ask me about <testing security>. From /etc/apt/sources.list, remove stable-specific lines like squeeze-updates and backports, and change squeeze to wheezy. "apt-get update && apt-get dist-upgrade".
10:29<dpkg>okay, chealer
10:29<gnufan>chealer: I've run testing on this box before, I can handle it (I hope).
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10:42<sney>gnufan: fyi, the testing support channel is #debian-next. also, since testing is constantly changing, having run it "before" is basically meaningless
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10:50<chealer>sney: gnufan was referring to his ability to handle a "bumpy ride".
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11:10<cajac_>I have a problem with thttpd; I'm runnin Debian squeeze stable. I can not start thttpd with the command: sudo /etc/init.d/thttpd start. I get no ouptut and the process is not started (pidof thttpd shows nothing).
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11:12<lindi->cajac_: /etc/default/thtt*?
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11:13<cajac_>lindi-: /etc/default/thttpd has ENABLED=no (I didn't change any settings after install)
11:13<lindi->cajac_: yeah you need to set that to =yes
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11:15<cajac_>I can run sudo thttpd and it starts. But it will show my entire home directory. (which seems a bit insecure to me)
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11:17<cajac_>no, that didn't work for me
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11:20<cajac_>lindi- I reinstalled. Changed the enabled option and now get: Starting web server: /usr/sbin/thttpd: unknown config option 'ENABLED'
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11:28<valdyn>cajac_: show us the contents of that file where you changed the enabled option
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11:31<cajac_>/etc/default/thttpd only contains the line enabled=no
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11:32<valdyn>cajac_: so where did you change the enabled option then?
11:32<cajac_>I changed no to yes on that line
11:34<valdyn>cajac_: this workd fine in debian, which is why i was asking you to show us the contents of that file so we can see what you mssed up
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11:34<dpkg>Do not paste more than 2 lines to this channel. Instead, use: or for pics. Use for large files (think tar.gz) up to 100MB. Remember to tell us the URL of your paste! Cannot cut and paste? Ask me about <pastebinit>, <nopaste>, <wgetpaste>, <>.
11:34<cajac_>Ah. I did a complete uninstall and reinstall. I changed the line again to ENABLED=yes. And ran sudo /etc/init.d/start thttpd
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11:35<cajac_>But i still have the problem that it by default serves a webpage containing my entire home directory
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11:35<valdyn>cajac_: that could be your old http running
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11:35<valdyn>cajac_: that could be your old thttpd running
11:36<cajac_>seems unlikely i did an complete uninstall and pidoff thttpd showed nothing
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11:37<valdyn>cajac_: it serves /var/www by default
11:37<cajac_>I was expecting that. But it serves my home directory here!
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11:37<cajac_>seems like a serious security issue to me. (luckily i'm behind a nat router)
11:37<valdyn>cajac_: what did you do to thttpd or /var/www to make it server your home directory?
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11:38<valdyn>cajac_: yes, its a security issue, no its not something debian did
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11:38<cajac_>I added a index.html file to the /var/www directory. But it only contains a 'hello world' webpage.
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11:39<valdyn>cajac_: /etc/thtttpd/thttpd.conf determines what is served
11:40<cajac_>i removed my index.html file and now it serves an empty folder
11:40<cajac_>I suppose it's /var/www now
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11:42<Aketzu>hmm... kdeinit4: kded4 using 1061M memory... sounds like it's leaking :)
11:43<valdyn>Aketzu: how do you know its using that much memory?
11:43<cajac_>I added the index.html file again and now it is working as expected.
11:43<Aketzu>actually more... htop says VIRT 1719M, RES 1062M
11:43<valdyn>Aketzu: not pretty
11:43<Aketzu>it was RES ~700M a few hours ago
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11:46<gnufan>Aketzu: kdeinit4 consumes vast amounts of RAM by design -- have you left it doing nothing for a couple of hours or might you have used KDE applications? I haven't quite got my head around KDE4 - I have it as my desktop at work and keep meaning to install GNOME
11:47<Aketzu>well... I use KDE desktop and never log out
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11:47<Aketzu>of kde applications I use konsole and konqueror
11:47<sosaited>How can I find out which programs are listening on or have opened up what ports on my system
11:48<cajac_>valdyn: I cannot reproduce the problem. Delete the index.html file seems to have solved it. thanks for your kind help.
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11:48<Aketzu>sosaited: sudo netstat -npavut
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11:50<sosaited>and how can I block some of these programs or ports? Apparently mono and portmap is opening some ports on my system
11:50<sosaited>Aketzu, Thanks.
11:51<Aketzu>use iptables to firewall any (outside) connections to them
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11:53<sosaited>Aketzu, I use Firestarter, and I haven't added any incoming rules... but I guess that only shows the rules added by firestarter itself?. Can you tell of a command?
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11:53<sosaited>Aketzu, *tell a command to block
11:54<Aketzu>just add it to firestarter if you use that
11:54<Aketzu>using multiple methods of modifying iptables will just result in a mess
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11:57<sosaited>Aketzu, But in Firestarter, I have all incoming traffic restrictive by default :s. And I tried an external firewall / port probe and it showed all closed. But nessus scan showed a few opened. For now I have manually killed the processes that had those open "portmap . mono" but I want something that is permananent
11:57<Aketzu>iptables isn't permanent
11:57<Juliet>Hello, I'm having trouble getting my wireless card working. I believe I have the Realtek RTL8191SEvb card.
11:57<Aketzu>probably every time you press update in firestarter it deletes everything and writes its own rules
11:58<Aketzu>the question is what kind of rules firestarter really made
11:58<Aketzu>'sudo iptables -L -v -n' shows them
11:59<sosaited>Aketzu, Thank you. But that only shows Chain input, forward and output. with just the bytes transferred and no ports in any section
12:00<Aketzu>then you don't have any firewall rules
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12:03<sosaited>Aketzu, Shouldn't I have some that restrict all incoming traffic? Or is that the default in kernel?
12:04<valdyn>sosaited: its very hard to set up networking when you dont understand networking
12:04<Aketzu>default is policy ACCEPT
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12:05<tobb>what sets the console resolution at boot in latest squeeze?, I've looked at grub and console-setup but I'm not able to disable the resolution switch
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12:06<Black_Prince>dpkg, kms
12:06<dpkg>Kernel Mode Setting (KMS) has graphical modes initialized by the Linux kernel instead of X. It is hardware dependent, introduced in Linux 2.6.29. Enabled via modprobe as of xserver-xorg-video-intel 2:2.9.1-2 and xserver-xorg-video-radeon 1:6.12.192-2. To disable, edit /etc/modprobe.d/{i915,radeon}-kms.conf or boot with the 'nomodeset' kernel command line parameter.
12:06<Black_Prince>tobb, ^
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12:07<AopicieR_>hi; is there a way to "subscribe" to a bug report in order to get notified about changes/new messages?
12:07<AopicieR_>via rss or some cronjob or something like that
12:07<tobb>Black_Prince: ok I'll try the nomodeset option, brb
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12:12<tobb>Black_Prince: thanks, worked like a charm
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12:15<AopicieR_>gnufan: how did I miss that ... thank you!
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13:33<chatnix>is there a way to get rid of gnome's annoying network proxy setting? pidgin wants to pick up gnome's proxy settings by default...i don't want it to
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13:35<dpkg>eto anglijsko govorjashhij kanal, pozhalujsta govorite po anglijski ili posetite #debian-russian (Russian speakers please go to #debian-russian)
13:35<glummy>ok tnx
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13:36<lindi->chatnix: why is it annoying?
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13:38<chatnix>lindi-: because i have reason to suspect gnome's proxy is what's breaking my torsocks
13:38<lindi->chatnix: you probably should configure gnome to use your privoxy as a proxy
13:39<chatnix>lindi-: this is torsocks, not for browsing...i would like gnome to stay out completely
13:40<lindi->chatnix: can you describe what torsocks is?
13:41<chatnix>lindi-: it's a wrapper that talks to tor's socks proxy, problem is that it's now just feeding garbage to tor's socks port
13:41<lindi->chatnix: LD_PRELOAD?
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13:42<chatnix>lindi-: hm, how to use this?
13:42<lindi->chatnix: I'm asking if torsocks uses LD_PRELOAD
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13:43<chatnix>lindi-: that's more than i know about torsocks
13:43<lindi->chatnix: apt-get source torsocks && grep -r LD_PRELOAD torsocks* shows that it does
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13:43<lindi->chatnix: LD_PRELOAD is an ugly hack :/
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13:44<chatnix>lindi-: torsocks in general is something of an ugly hack :/
13:44<lindi->chatnix: what traffic are you trying to torify?
13:44<chatnix>lindi-: irssi and pidgin
13:44<chatnix>lindi-: both break in the same way
13:44<babilen>chealer: Please stop editing frequently used factoids before discussing the changes first. Thank you.
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13:44<lindi->chatnix: is irssi safe to use like that? don't DCC give out your IP?
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13:45<chatnix>lindi-: DCC is probably not safe
13:46<lindi->chatnix: and surely irssi does not understand gnome proxy settings?
13:47<chatnix>lindi-: i wouldn't think, perhaps the issue is somewhere else
13:47<lindi->chatnix: most probably yes
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13:49<chatnix>what's the simplest way of disabling gdm and start without gnome?
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13:52<lindi->chatnix: update-rc.d gdm disable
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14:21<rektide>where can i find documentation for /etc/apt/trusted.gpg* files ?
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14:23<rektide>many thanks daemonkeeper
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14:38<alvarezp>How can I list all packages that are available (and/or installed) from a repository?
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14:39<babilen>!list repositories
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14:40<babilen>alvarezp: /msg dpkg list repositories
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14:40<chatnix>hm, tried booting without gnome to see if that would change anything. however, a whole bunch of problems emerged: 1. my computer won't connect to the wired network (neither with or without gnome) 2. network manager appears slightly broken after the latest update: it's no longer able to handle the wireless on/off switch on the computer and i started getting kernel errors when trying to get it to connect to the wired network
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14:42<alvarezp>babilen: hi! Thanks, but I do not want to list the repo for an installed package, but the other way around all packages from a specific repo. Use case: I have a non-official repo and I want to know if I can remove it.
14:42<themill>alvarezp: which repo is this?
14:42<alvarezp>themill:, and a couple of ppa's.
14:43<alvarezp>I mean, ppas
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14:45<themill>alvarezp: if the repo has a sensible name (see "apt-cache policy") then you can search directly, e.g. "/msg dpkg dmm list". You shouldn't be using PPAs with debian anyway, of course.
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15:28<jardiamj>wols, are you always online? I just opened my laptop again to try to get vga switchero working...
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15:29<wols>I have a small headless box, so basically yes. doesn't mean I'm always looking at the screen or typing into my keyboard :)
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15:30<wols>among us irc addicts here (#d has a lot of those...) this is pretty normal
15:30<jardiamj>hahahahaha... I was going to ask you if you sleep at all...
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15:49<Nik05>guys is it possible to remove the titlebar from iceweasel?
15:50<Nik05>like in Windows 7?
15:50<gnufan>Nik05: which version are you using? I think the version on stable predates any of that..
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15:51<Nik05>im using 6.0.2
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15:51<gnufan>Nik05: and why would you want to is a better question, the browsers are all desparate to mimic bad user interface features of the others.
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15:52<Nik05>gnufan like when you press F11 the titlebar is gone but the buttons are still there
15:52<Nik05>is it possible to get that without fullscreen?
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15:54<gnufan>Nik05: I think so, but I don't have 6 installed here to check.
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15:54<lindi->gnufan: "bad" is subjective :)
15:55<erik>Hello everybody
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15:59<erik>Can someone tell me where i can find a list of all supported hardware id's?
15:59<chealer>Nik05: depending on your window manager, I suppose.
16:00<Nik05>ok im using gnome
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16:01<gnufan>lindi-: I think Sam Harris made a good case for it not being subjective in some cases ;) In this case the titlebar tells you which window is active (has focus), what the application is, and presents standard controls for manipulating it, thus not having it means you can't see if it has focus, what it is, or manipulate it in the normal fashion of an application in your window manager. I disabled most of the dross immediately - although Chrome makes passable stable
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16:01<gnufan>s/stable/stab/ oops time to turn in
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16:05<tony>Esto como funciona?? donde se buscan los canales... gracias
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16:11<thewanderer>tony: /list
16:11<thewanderer>!tell tony about es
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16:14<jhutchins_lt>Nik05: F-11
16:15<dpkg>[hcl] Hardware Compatibility Lists for Linux include (PCI verification only), , and . Also ask me about <driver locator>, <judd-hardware>.
16:15<jhutchins_lt>Nik05: Does that do what you wanted?
16:16<Nik05>jhutchins_lt, that makes it fullscreen...
16:16<Nik05>thats not what i want :P
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16:17<jhutchins_lt>Nik05: Ah well, it toggles.
16:17<Nik05>i only want to remove the windows caption title bar
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16:18<jhutchins_lt>Nik05: You can hide the menu bar and navigation bar within iceweasel, but the window title is controlled by the window manager.
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16:18<jhutchins_lt>Nik05: Obviously there's an api to do it, because f11 does, but I'm not sure what the UI is. Other than something that would affect all windows.
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16:30<erik>Nik05 you can set the program specific windows behavior to disable the title bar.
16:31<Nik05>ah erik where can i do that?
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16:31<erik>Thanks dpkg for your response
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16:37<erik>Klik on the program icon, left top of the specific window. Select advanced, special program settings, open 3th tab.
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16:38<erik>sorry 4e tab, i don't no what it is called because i use dutch version
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16:38<Nik05>Ik heb de Engelse versie...
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16:38<Nik05>Where do i klik ?
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16:39<valdyn>Nik05: <- the calculator icon
16:40<Nik05>I dont see advanced...
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16:40<valdyn>erik: are you aware that he is using metacity?
16:40<erik>on the left top of the window that jou want to change, on the icon
16:41<kylasy>hello everybody
16:42<erik>valdyn i think it is posible with all wm's
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16:42<kylasy>i need help
16:42<valdyn>erik: certainly not via this method
16:43<kylasy>is there a french channel?
16:43<dpkg>Pour l'aide en francais, veuillez rejoindre le canal #debian-fr. Francophone users: for help in french, please go to #debian-fr.
16:43<erik>I did the same with opera, because i used to have that without titelbar on windows
16:44<Nik05>erik what window manager are you using?
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16:45<erik>Nik05 i now it working with compiz and kwin
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16:46<valdyn>Nik05: rightlick on title bar , click attributes
16:46<Nik05>valdyn i dont see attribute
16:46<valdyn>Nik05: what do you see then?
16:47<Nik05>Minimize, maximize, resize etc..
16:47<Nik05>Always on top and move to workspace
16:47<Nik05>and Close
16:48<erik>Nik05 i use tested it on metacity and the option is not available sorry.
16:48<valdyn>Nik05: look at the devilspie and the gdevilspie packages
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16:49<Nik05>hhm ok
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16:53<Nik05>thanks valdyn trying it out
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16:55<erik>Can someone tell me how to switch between spelcontrol language?
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17:04<erik>I am using xchat but am unable to switch langage spellcheck.
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18:46<xDD>Why does dpkg/apt not use delta compression for updates?
18:46<dpkg>well, debdelta is a framework for updating machines using binary diffs of the .deb packages rather than downloading the full .deb. See
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18:47<themill>it can if you want
18:47<xDD>Why is that not the default?
18:48<chealer>xDD: it's not implemented yet
18:48<themill>debdelta requires a lot more disk space at your end too so that's not necessarily a good plan for everyone.
18:48<xDD>themill: why would it require extra disk space?
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18:49<themill>because the old .deb is required at your end
18:49<xDD>As far as I understand, you only need to keep the current version of the .debs
18:49<themill>whereas without debdelta, you don't need to keep any .debs around.
18:49<xDD>Can't it delta patch against the installed files?
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18:50<themill>working out how to do that securely is an interesting problem
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18:52<kayo>hello :)
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18:53<xDD>There could be a meta file for each package which contains references to all installed files, with a unique, version-independent ID for each entry.
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18:54<chealer>xDD: yes
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18:55<kayo>I am looking into buying a new or used laptop to run stable on. I want to use it for photo editing primarily but also like watching youtube videos and surfing. I want something that doesnt require non-free drivers and works pretty much out of the box. Any suggestions?
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19:22<zero_>anyone know a good usenet client?
19:22<dvs>zero_: pfft! I just use Icedove.
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19:23<cheapie>zero_: UseWHAT?
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19:23<dvs>!tell cheapie about usenet
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19:28<cheapie>When I start the system, log in, and start X, what runlevel do I end up in?
19:28<cheapie>dvs: OK. So I have a script that I want to run when I enter runlevel 2. How do I do that?
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19:29<dvs>cheapie: update-rc.d
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19:30<cheapie>dvs: Thanks. Bye!
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20:16<tdrusk>Hi guys, I am having trouble with my headphone jack not recognizing that anything is plugged into it. In Ubuntu I had to add options snd-hda-intel model=thinkpad to etc/modprobe.d/alsa-base.conf. This doesn't work in squeeze though. This leads me to believe I need to upgrade alsa. Can someone explain to me how to do that if my reasoning is correct?
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20:24<hamok>hello, i installed debian from debian live cd, and i am connected to the internet but the network icon says "No network connection" - what's wrong?
20:24<Walex>tdrusk: probably your reasoning is correct, it was the same with my Toshiba laptop. Unfortunately ALSA is a set of modules in the kernel, and either you get a newer kernel, or you compile the modules from source downloding the source from the ALSA site.
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20:25<tdrusk>Walex: Do you think this would work under "Install an updated driver"
20:26<Walex>tdrusk: that would work, if you also follow 'AptPinning' on how to add a new repository.
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20:27<tdrusk>Walex: Thanks. I will try that!
20:27<hamok>how can i auto mount my harddrives in debian? and is it ok to run them as root?
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20:30<tdrusk>hamok: look into fstab. you can define the users you want to be able to mount.
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20:47<tdrusk>Walex: Hey that alsa page worked great. Instead of apt-pinning I just added testing's repo, updated, installed alsa-source, m-a prepare, m-a build alsa, m-a install alsa, and alsa force-reload. So stoked right now!
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22:56<Guest11600>I have come to realize am not a fan of Unity
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23:10<xy>is there anyone here?
23:10<Rev_Canada>Although I think it makes the transition to linux easier for new users, I am not a fan of unity either. I in fact have switched back to Debian when unity was implemented.
23:11<xy>I don't like the global menu feature at all
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23:13<Guest11600>I am afraid Mark is shooting for the "Mac" demographic with this
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23:13<Guest11600>I have actually just now tried the 11.04. I use Squeeze as my main OS
23:14<Guest11600>I see many "OSX" features trying to be implemented here
23:15<xy>I've moved from ubuntu to debian since I encountered too many problems with ubuntu
23:16<tensorpudding>i'm an ubuntu user who prefers gnome-shell
23:16<Guest11600>Yeah, love Debian's stability. I have not yet used the gnome shell was going to try that next
23:16<tensorpudding>11.10 improved unity though
23:17<tensorpudding>though part of that is gnome 3
23:17<xy>I think ubuntu developers should work more on the stability before add more fancy features
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23:19<tensorpudding>i can agree to an extent
23:19<Guest11600>I guess because Ubuntu is suppose to be cutting edge it is to be expected but I always find myself going back to Debian
23:19<tensorpudding>between freeze and release there isn't enough time to clean the bugs
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23:20<tensorpudding>that said, using beta 2 now, most of the bugs seem to be fixed
23:20<tensorpudding>the bug that i notice most right now is a bug in gnome
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23:20<Rev_Canada>At the same time, I think that the Ubuntu developers are aiming for a product that is easily used by any user (novice to expert) and at the same time is immediately compatible with a wide range of hardware.
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23:24<gdzhang>hi,i have a question that kernel can load *.ko compile whith another gcc version use the kernel compile env
23:24<gdzhang>is ther any Affect?
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23:27<jardiamj>tensorpudding, I've been curious about gnome 3, but haven had the chance to try it out. Are you using gnome 3? How is it looking?
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---Logclosed Mon Sep 26 00:00:19 2011