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#debian IRC Logs for 2018-09-21

---Logopened Fri Sep 21 00:00:59 2018
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01:45<dpkg>QEMU is a fast PC emulator. #qemu on See also <kvm>, <virtualization>.
01:45<ach>!qemu exec
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02:25<ach>Short question how i get with a normal user access to tun/tap?
02:31<dpkg>netdev is the group that you need to be a member of to manage network devices through <NetworkManager> and <wicd>. Check the output of "groups" to see if you are in the netdev group; to add your user to the group, "adduser your_username netdev" then log out and log back in. See also <wireless connection managers>.
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04:32<facelessloser>Hi I'm having trouble, I've freshly installed debian 9 and after installing kicad 5 and rebooting I'm meet with the message "failed to start light display manager"
04:34<arto>facelessloser: where did you download kicad 5 ?
04:35<facelessloser>From deb sid main
04:36<arto>facelessloser: and you have stretch? Debian 9 stable
04:36<facelessloser>Yes with cinnamon desktop
04:37<jm_>what does «journalctl -u lightdm.service» show?
04:37<jm_>use the paste site:
04:37<dpkg>Do not paste more than 2 lines to this channel. Instead, use for text: or | pics/screenshots: or | large files up to 100MB (think tar.gz): or | Remember to tell us the URL of your paste! Cannot cut and paste? Ask me about <pastebinit>, <nopaste>, <wgetpaste>.
04:38<jm_>ahh from sid, yes that's not a good idea
04:38<facelessloser>--no entreis--
04:38<facelessloser>Ah I see
04:39<jm_>in general, either use stretch + backports or if you want something newer, fully upgrade to testing and use that, but:
04:39<jm_>!testing security
04:39<dpkg>Security updates in testing are delayed by the normal testing migration *and* may be further delayed by missing dependencies, etc. See
04:39<jm_>I wouldn't recommend using unstable for you
04:40<arto>facelessloser: as explained in the link I gave, the problem is that sid packages need newer libraries than stable has
04:40<facelessloser>The thing is I wanted kicad 5 which is available from bakcports but when I install it from apt it gives me kicad can I force it to give me kicad 5?
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04:41<arto>facelessloser: and if kicad 5 pulled dependencies, you have frankendebian
04:42<facelessloser>Right OK, thanks for your help
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04:43<jm_>bleh stretch-backports has version 5
04:43<arto>jm_: he went
04:43<jm_>hence bleh :)
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04:50<nyov>,v varnish
04:50<judd>Package: varnish on amd64 -- wheezy: 3.0.2-2+deb7u2; wheezy-security: 3.0.2-2+deb7u2; jessie: 4.0.2-1+deb8u1; jessie-security: 4.0.2-1+deb8u1; stretch: 5.0.0-7+deb9u2; stretch-security: 5.0.0-7+deb9u2; sid: 5.2.1-1+b1
04:51<nyov> is no more. and the version in sid is offlicially retired
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07:33<jkliemann>hi, I encountered a bug and there are already three reports open (777683, 798512, 884712) and I'm not sure which to answer on. While I usually would choose the latest this one doesn't exactly describe what I'm experiencing but the second one is relatively old. From what I could see the latter two are somehow related but not really equal. Do you have any advice?
07:36<sarnold>I suggest a new bug report
07:39<jkliemann>okay, should I mention that this can be related to the other three?
07:39<sarnold>yes, that's very kind, especially if you can give details on e.g. turning off offloading as suggested in the one that I read
07:41<jkliemann>yes, thats the point, turning off offloading works for me but not in the recent one. also I have two machines, one works with offloading turned off, this one also immediatly looses all connectivity once it happens, the other one behaves very similar to the latest bug report (malforming traffic, low rates, doesnt immediatly disconnect) so I assume that I could have two machines with two different bugs (unfortunately I can only test with one
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07:46<jkliemann>*i mean the behaviour described in the first one, not the latest
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08:39<jkliemann>I reported a new bug, thanks for your help
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10:36<Kemopan>Hello! Could anybody help me with setting up bridge? I did this successfully with debian 7, but cannot do same stuff in debian 9.5 for some reason
10:37<Kemopan>Mine bridge doesn't allow L3 traffic to pass thru it, only L2 (like CDP, STP, ARP and Multicast)
10:38<petn-randall>Kemopan: Is there a reason why you want to also debug the issue in this channel?
10:38<dpkg>Posting the same question in several places at the same time (IRC channels, news groups, mailing lists, forums) is impolite; your time is NOT more valuable than everyone else's. Your question might be answered elsewhere, meanwhile we are wasting our time doing research for a problem you've already solved. Cross-posting can also make you look like a spammer and get you k:lined. See also <multiple ask> <hurry>.
10:39<Kemopan>yeah, tried to ask on irc.freenode, but no success =(
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10:40<petn-randall>Kemopan: Why not? jelly and Brigo responded.
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10:42<Kemopan>true, but there were no success in solving
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10:56<Kemopan>petn-randall, I replied to them as well, but there were no answers, so I decided that I should continue googling and asking, sounds fair to me o_O
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11:09<koollman>Hi. I'm stuck at boot on a machine that cannot mount on of its partition. with the combination of systemd and a locked root account, the messages aren't useful, and the behavior probably a bug
11:10<petn-randall>koollman: Can you send us a screenshot of the boot failure?
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11:12<koollman>(I'm pretty sure I can work around that ... but it's still a pretty annoying bug)
11:12<petn-randall>koollman: I'm fairly sure you'd have the same issue with sysv init and a locked root account.
11:12<dpkg>For GRUB: 1) press 'e' to edit the kernel setting in the grub command line (add 'init=/bin/sh' to the end of it) 2) 'fsck' your root file system, 3) 'mount -o remount,rw /', 4) 'passwd root' 5) 'mount -o remount,ro /' 6) 'reboot -d -f' (exec /sbin/init should work); For LILO: 1) 'Linux init=/bin/sh' at the LILO boot prompt (hold Shift while booting), steps 2-6 are the same; For yaboot: 1) 'Linux init=/bin/sh' at yaboot prompt.
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11:12<petn-randall>koollman: You can use this to set a root password. ^^^
11:13<petn-randall>koollman: What you didn't show us yet is the actual error messages, or are they not there?
11:13<koollman>petn-randall: I did not have the issue with sysv. (or rather, I had a different one but I think it was patched, locked account was handled in this case)
11:14<koollman>I'm wondering more about how to fix the 'maintenance mode + locked root account' part
11:15<koollman>(the problem is a partition in fstab that does not exist anymore on this machine, I'll fix that using the grub workaround)
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12:48<ach>help, pleaasssssseeeeee i don't get off an error of qemu i can just access the network with vm if i run it as root??
12:49<petn-randall>ach: Can you rephrase your question? And maybe clean your keyboard, some keys seem to stick.
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12:53<ach>That's my error it lose by root operation: qemu-system-x86_64: could not configure /dev/net/tun (tap0): Operation not permitted ?
12:56<mnuhmnuh>ach: can you cut+paste a listing of the messages you're seeing --> ?
12:56<mnuhmnuh>ach: it'll help to see context.
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13:55<petn-randall>ach: And how are you starting ... something? Whatever you're trying to do.
13:57<ach>did a fit search of word rescue more then just it's a fit for without root?!?
13:58<petn-randall>err, do what now?
13:59<ach>get the option to amce no root execute :< <3 <3
14:01<ach>or just sudo apparmor away crunch to crunch for word
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14:48<mnuhmnuh>ach: what is your native language? i'm sorry to say your english is incomprehensible. there should be a #debian.XX where XX == your country code (fr, de, ru, ...). you'd get better help there.
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14:52<dpkg>Deutschsprachige Hilfe bekommt ihr in (auf, oder - German speaking users please go to (on, or
14:53<ach>my english is better as i excuse?????? <3
14:53<petn-randall>ach: I don't understand what you mean, either. Sorry. What is your native language?
14:56<ach>i finished begun language? For me. <3
14:58<mnuhmnuh>ach: i *wish* i was multi-lingual, but i've not had that opportunity. your attempts are admirable, but failing, sorry to say. try instead.
14:59<petn-randall>mnuhmnuh: How do you know it's German?
14:59<petn-randall>Guessing from the /whois?
15:00<mnuhmnuh>petn-randall: guessing from nslookup their ip addy,
15:02<petn-randall>ach: Frag mal in auf freenode. Man kann dein Englisch leider nicht verstehen.
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15:05<ach>their just no difference between cat and curl
15:05<ach>ok enough?
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15:06<mnuhmnuh>ach: see, that makes no sense. cat is list a file's contents, or create a file. curl is get a file from remote system.
15:07<ach>for the actual eyes <3
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15:08<mnuhmnuh>ach: all you'll get from this is everyone seeing you doing /ignore ach, which won't help you.
15:08<jhutchins_wk>It's well after five PM in Germany. That may be contributing a bit.
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15:09<ach>makes it sense to not help me fit my problem
15:10<dpkg>If you have a question, just ask! For example: "I have a problem with ___; I'm running Debian version ___. When I try to do ___ I get the following output ___. I expected it to do ___." Don't ask if you can ask, if anyone uses it, or pick one person to ask. We're all volunteers; make it easy for us to help you. If you don't get an answer try a few hours later or on See <smart questions><errors>.
15:10<mnuhmnuh>ach: we'd love to help you fix your problem, if we could understand it. that's why we're here!
15:11<ach>requires it root to have network access with aqemu?
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15:13<mnuhmnuh>ach: if you're using nm-applet to configure network, then likely no, you won't need root. if using /etc/network/interfaces, then yes, root (or sudo) is required to edit that file.
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15:14<ach>apt failed me that cause vm packets?
15:15<ach>but ok i go with root
15:15<blast007>ach: are you using VDE (Virtual Distributed Ethernet)?
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15:19<ach>well for sure i was trying get opengl working for have it to run pc games gone too but it ruined my network with network manager of actual vm as far i can now have. ;-)
15:20<blast007>what is the full qemu command line you are running?
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15:20<mnuhmnuh>ach: what does opengl have to do with network? nothing.
15:22<ach>as i told it was vm support packages and aqemu not other as just qemu image + net but root
15:22<mnuhmnuh>ach: you're only telling us about a tenth of what you're seeing, and expecting us to fill in the blanks? won't work.
15:22<blast007>ach: Please just answer my question. What is the full qemu command line that you are running?
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15:25<ach>that was kind i used but i even have failed no qemu in command line just qemu_system_64 ?? qemu -net nic -net vde,sock=/var/run/vde2/mytap.ctl debianimage.img i had to install all suggestions on vm tools out of apt and it kick of the network manager
15:25<ach>i tried to install with remove and reinstall but it won't come back
15:27<blast007>you probably don't need VDE, but if you do, you also need to add your user to the vde2-net group. If you just need your VM to be able to access the Internet, then don't include any -net options (if I understand the wiki page correctly)
15:28<blast007> that says that QEMU will add -nic and -user options by default and will put the VM beind NAT so they can access the Internet.
15:28<ach>i am behind a nat now
15:28<blast007>sure, for your ISP
15:28<blast007>this is another level of NAT between your local network and the VMs running on your computer
15:29<blast007>VDE sounds like it's more useful if you're running multiple physical qemu hosts and want to connect virtual networks between them
15:30<ach>well i am tap0 access ip nat ?
15:30<blast007>look, the command you gave says vde, so you're using vde
15:30<blast007>you probably don't want vde. you probably want either or
15:30<ach>all my tries gone to fail get after the wiki but i gone i got out that tap0 gone to nat
15:31<blast007>why are you using VDE?
15:31<ach>just it goes cause this i am asking get access to the net without root
15:32<ach>i tried both even gone to have a adapter on host and vm?
15:33<ach><3 well it was a selfish solution out of both of the wiki
15:33<mnuhmnuh>ach: for network, two options: nm-applet or /etc/network/interfaces; one or the other. you need root (or sudo) for editing interfaces file.
15:34<blast007>ach: have you tried just running 'qemu debianimage.img' ?
15:35<ach>for me comes it toward root or no network '"adapter"
15:35<blast007>if you use vde, it won't work unless you're a member of the vde2-net group
15:35<ach>if i try to run my network as user it won't start the vm
15:36<blast007>(so, add yourself to the group and reboot)
15:36<ach>that was made exact after the wiki
15:37<ach>but it's now later i have tap0 part as nat
15:37<mnuhmnuh>ach: type "id". does it show you're a member of vde2-net?
15:38<ach>but can't set me out bacl off root to run it
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15:39<mnuhmnuh>ach: again, if your LANG == german, you should be asking in
15:40<mnuhmnuh>ach: i can only understand a tenth of what you're saying.
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15:42<ach>is just you teach me it's some of normal to run qemu as root
15:43<blast007>you should not run qemu as root
15:45<mnuhmnuh>ach: you should only need root to initially _configure_ services. after *correctly* configured, normal user should have no problem _using_ correctly configured system.
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15:45<ach>so i need a solution can access with a user tun and tan0
15:46<ach>or qemu to run tun for have access or waste my found solution have network for qemu vm's!
15:46<mnuhmnuh>ach: root is potentially dangerous to use, like walking around with lit sticks of dynamite in each hand.
15:47<mnuhmnuh>ach: did not understand any of that.
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15:48<blast007>ach: what does the output of the 'groups' command show?
15:48*mnuhmnuh waste of time.
15:51<dpkg>QEMU is a fast PC emulator. #qemu on See also <kvm>, <virtualization>.
15:51<ach>i am in vde** group but had also errors on doing the wiki but buster but ok it gone fine with qemu
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17:16<MasterMilkshake>Hello! I am new to debian IRC. I need help with broken packages, badly. Is there a channel I should join?
17:16<dpkg>If you have a question, just ask! For example: "I have a problem with ___; I'm running Debian version ___. When I try to do ___ I get the following output ___. I expected it to do ___." Don't ask if you can ask, if anyone uses it, or pick one person to ask. We're all volunteers; make it easy for us to help you. If you don't get an answer try a few hours later or on See <smart questions><errors>.
17:17<MasterMilkshake>!ask I am holding broken packages and I cannot find what those packages are by sifting through dpkg
17:17<dpkg>MasterMilkshake: that's too long
17:17<MasterMilkshake>!ask I am holding broken packages!!
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17:18<mots>Post the output of apt or dpkg, I guess.
17:18<at0m>MasterMilkshake: just give more details on how you broke packages, which packages, etc
17:19<dpkg>Do not paste more than 2 lines to this channel. Instead, use for text: or | pics/screenshots: or | large files up to 100MB (think tar.gz): or | Remember to tell us the URL of your paste! Cannot cut and paste? Ask me about <pastebinit>, <nopaste>, <wgetpaste>.
17:21<MasterMilkshake>OK so I am not sure how I broke things, but Im pretty sure I accidentally pulled the wrong version of libasound a while ago. I run stretch. Here is what happens when I try to install perl.
17:21<maxrazer>I just did "git clone" in my /sur folder by accident. I think I want to clean it up. I only see a folder "dwm" and three other files with dwm. Git wouldn't have put anything in my other folder in /usr, would it?
17:22<MasterMilkshake>also, in my case, running `dpkg -l | grep ^..r ` returns nothing
17:23<MasterMilkshake>i have also tried all of the `apt clean` and the like of commands. I need to locate the broken package.
17:32<MasterMilkshake>ah! Success! I installed perl after downgrading my perl-base version through aptitude
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18:13<davesp>MasterMilkshake, you said, "I installed perl after downgrading my perl-base version through aptitude". I'm still trying to wrap my head around that statement. Can you provide a few details about what you did?
18:13<zoredache>occasionally when I run `apt-get update` I will get an error like `W: Size of file is not what the server reported 659600 659627`. But when this happens apt-get still returns an exit code of zero.
18:14<zoredache>Is there any easy way to check that all my defined sources were updated correctly?
18:15<zoredache>Or something I can easily test for that situation?
18:16<zoredache>I am looking for a test for this because I had an error like that where the 'stable' source had an error, and my system decided to install a bunch of stuff from backports during an apt-get dist-upgrade when I wasn't paying close enough attention.
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18:19<davesp>zoredache: Does "" help?
18:19<judd>Bug in apt-transport-https (closed): «apt-transport-https: apt-get update: W: Size of file [...] is not what the server reported»; severity: normal; opened: 2015-10-21; last modified: 2016-03-05.
18:19<davesp>(Wow, timing. :-)
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18:24<zoredache>davesp: that doesn't seem to have any solutions. Also seems to be talking about a situation where the server has sends more data then the size it reports. For some reason most of the time I see that warning the content is undersized.
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18:43<davesp>From the bug notes, it looks like that was a "one-off" issue. I've never seen that error. Have you tried changing distro sources?
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18:45<davesp>(Specifically, changing "/etc/apt/sources.list" to use other repos.)
18:45<maxrazer>I'm trying to make dwm, but I keep getting errors saying no such file or directory X11/Xft/Xft.h
18:45<maxrazer>I read I needed to install x11lib-dev and libxeinerama-dev and installed them and I still get the error.
18:45<maxrazer>The debian wiki doesn't say what libraries you need to install to make dwm.
18:45<zoredache>well that particular error is for I don't think their are mirrors for that? `deb stretch/updates main`?
18:46<zoredache>maxrazer: you can get the stuff you need with `apt-get build-dep dwm` probably.
18:48<maxrazer>zoredache, Ok, "apt build-dep dwm" gives me a few dozen packages to install.
18:48<davesp>The "security" line in my sources.list is "deb stretch/updates main contrib non-free"; I'm not sure if the extra "contrib non-free" will make a difference in your case.
18:51<zoredache>it just means that on the system I am not using contrib or non-free packages
18:52<davesp>zoredache: You wrote, "my system decided to install a bunch of stuff from backports during an apt-get dist-upgrade when I wasn't paying close enough attention." Was the "bunch of stuff" part due to a weird sources.list file?
18:52<maxrazer>zoredache, build-dep is very helpful. I don't see it in the man page.
18:52<zoredache>just run `apt-get` with no options. It is one of the possible commands
18:53<maxrazer>zoredache, Ah, ok. I see it in apt-get man page. It works with apt though, but not in the man page.
18:53<maxrazer>I always use apt, not apt-get
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18:54<zoredache>maxrazer: ah. I have been using Debian since 2000ish, before all the fancy apt/aptitude tools were introduced. I still haven't gotten out of the habit of using apt-get for everything
18:55<maxrazer>zoredache, Well I'm thinking that apt man pages aren't updated or something, which is disapointing. Maybe I should use apt-get.
18:56<zoredache>maxrazer: apt has some nice functionality, for searching and prettier output. It pulls in some of the features of apt-cache and so on. So it is mostly the newer/better tool.
18:57<zoredache>davesp: my sources.list for this system is really basic.
18:57<maxrazer>zoredache, That's what I thought. But, build-dep is important and people need to know about that.
18:57<davesp>If you're not against using a GUI, "synaptic" does a pretty good job of pointing-out issues.
18:58<maxrazer>davesp, If I need to build something? I got dwm from the debian git repository too.
18:58<zoredache>basically somehow the 'stretch main' source failed during an apt-get update, and somehow, I am not entirely sure how a bunch of stretch-backports packages got pulled in when they shouldn't have
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19:04<davesp>zoredache: To me, your "stretch-backports" line is unusual; I don't have that in my sources.list file. Are you running on a Mac? That's where I usually see "backports" issues.
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19:07<zoredache>well using backports isn't normal, but not that unusual. I want a newer version of OpenVPN and a few other packages then what is in stable. Backports is a way to get that. The system isn't a mac. It is a pretty minimal VM. Though I have seen a similar errors on physical hardware.
19:08<maxrazer>Well that was disappoint. I did "make install clean" for dwm and rebooted and the change I made to config.h did not take effect.
19:10<zoredache>Anyway, I am not too worried about the issue of getting packages from the wrong place. It is more that I want to figure out how to get apt-get to act as if warnings were failures. So that `apt-get update && apt-get dist-upgrade` would not upgrade anything if the update didn't complete with no errors/warnings
19:10<maxrazer>All I wanted to do was a very simple change of making the window manager key from mod1filer (left-alt) to mod4filter(super / window manager key)
19:11<zoredache>maxrazer: and that is hard coded, and can't be adjusted via some configuration?
19:12<maxrazer>zoredache, Everything in dwm is done by editing the header files and compiling/installing.
19:12<maxrazer>That is how all configuration is done.
19:14<maxrazer>And somehow now my default sound device has changed and I don't have sound.
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19:17<maxrazer>It is changed to my sound blaster card, isntead of integrated sound, which is what I normally want and was going to change by editing the alsa config.
19:17<davesp>zoredache: On my system, the man page for apt-get says, "apt-get returns zero on normal operation, decimal 100 on error". No mention of warnings. You might have to create your own wrapper script to parse for what you consider to be "warnings", then act accordingly.
19:17<maxrazer>maybe that dwm dev-dep somehow changed something?
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19:20<maxrazer>Oh, you have to edit .xinitrc. The debian wiki says so.
19:20<maxrazer>Oh, no actually that is only if you don't have root
19:21<zoredache>davesp: probably. But I was hoping someone had already done that, which goes back to my first question. Is there some way to check if all my defined sources have been updated correctly.
19:21<zoredache>some kind of update check that loops over all the sources and validates the release and other files.
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19:21<maxrazer>Hmm. Maybe I did "make install clean" instead of "make clean install".
19:23<zoredache>maxrazer: really you probably shouldn't be using either directly. You probably should be building new deb files.
19:23<maxrazer>Well, the debian wiki says to do make clean install and also that is how this program is supposed to work.
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19:27<davesp>zoredache: Is it possible for us package users to determine that their "defined sources have been updated correctly"?
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19:28<davesp>(It seems there's a chain of trust involved, which breaks at some point.)
19:28<zoredache>it should be possible. You would use gpg to validate the Release file, and if the Release is valid use the stored md5 hash to check all the other files
19:28<zoredache>apt already does that normally when you are installing something. I am just looking for that as a separate function.
19:29<zoredache>or at least I think it validates things at some point, maybe not at install/upgrade
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19:42<davesp>zoredcache: So, a way to verify that "package.dpkg" from "" is valid? That, there, seems to be the issue.
19:43<zoredache>no, I don't need to validate that the packages are valid. The were valid. I want to validate that the lists downloaded from each source are valid
19:45<davesp>zoredache: Can you trust the lists which were downloaded?
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19:46<mnuhmnuh>zoredache: (though, https is overkill).
19:46<davesp>"https" is never overkill.
19:47<mnuhmnuh>okay, overrated.
19:47<zoredache>davesp: no, I obviously can't trust them since have an intermittent download failure that I am trying to figure out how to detect, since apt is reporting a warning, and not a failure....
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19:49<davesp>"https" is to the Internet as curtains are in your house.
19:49<zoredache>I have like 40+ servers, at least once a week I get an error on one of them like this.
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19:50<mnuhmnuh>web ca system is a bs house of cards. offtopic.
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19:51<zoredache>the error isn't confined to a single ISP or network some of the systems are on broadband, a couple at digital oceans, most on a fiber connection get from the state. As far as I know there is no proxy or content filter that would be interrupting or causing that error.
19:52<zoredache>it isn't tied to any particular apt source. I have seen errors, on the, httpredirt,, etc.
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19:56<mnuhmnuh>zoredache: debian has recently (some months?) done some magical dns !@#$, so will $(do the right thing) in all cases i've seen. works great here.
19:57<zoredache>mnuhmnuh: yup, this is the sources I have on one of the system, that is also occasionally reporting an error like that.
19:59<davesp>zoredache: I've seen reports of "Size of file ... is not what the server reported" bugs, and it seems they're non-issues. (The follow-ups seem to be "let it ride and it'll go away'.) mnuhmnuh seems to suggest the same thing.
20:00<mnuhmnuh>zoredache: "deb stretch/updates main ..." works.
20:01<zoredache>Yes, I understand, it will go away. It is **intermittent**. But in one cases that warning/error combined with some pinning resulted in one of my systems breaking because a bunch of newer packages were installed then what should have been installed
20:02<zoredache>So I am looking for a way to test for that potential failure condition.
20:02<davesp>Wrapper script.
20:06*mnuhmnuh despise intermittent failures; could be anything from fat fingers through nutrino emissions from another galaxy, ffs. :-P
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20:15<mnuhmnuh>that was not a complain about you, zoredache
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21:42<awal1>during upgrades/installs, "reading database" is local all it reads the whole repos of the branch in use?
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22:06<mnuhmnuh>awal1: don't understand, sorry. "apt* update" syncs local state w remote, compares, ... what's the question?
22:09<awal1>mnuhmnuh: what does exactly apt /dpkg when showing "reading database" message
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22:16<mnuhmnuh>awal1: my guess is you have a q. you've not mentioned yet. as for what apt* is doing, /var/log/apt/history.log should explain (en anglais) what the apt db view is.
22:17<mnuhmnuh>i'm not trying to be cryptic, btw. :-)
22:22<awal1>mnuhmnuh, j'ai rien dit; oublie car je vais dinner; merci tout de même :)
22:22<mnuhmnuh>for apt to do anything, it must first determine where the system stands, then, and only then, decide what to do with/to it.
22:24<awal1>mnuhmnuh, excuses, i have to leave
22:24<awal1>thanks for your time
22:29*mnuhmnuh geez. i use sumfin like "en englais" in a comment (in English), and people think i understand Francais/French. sheesh. gotta stop doin' that. yoiks!
22:31<mnuhmnuh>anglais, englais?
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---Logclosed Sat Sep 22 00:00:00 2018