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#debian IRC Logs for 2019-02-25

---Logopened Mon Feb 25 00:00:58 2019
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04:46<minikdo>Hi, debian-installer for 9.8. I can't connect to wifi. It says: "Invalid passphrase, The WPA/WPA2 PSk passphrase was either too long or too short." without even prompting for passphrase
04:47<petn-randall>minikdo: You likely need the non-free installer with firmware, as practically all wifi devices either come with buggy or non-existent firmware on their devices.
04:48<minikdo>petn-randall: I've got firmware-9.8.0-amd64-netinst.iso
04:49<petn-randall>Ah, I see.
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04:58<minikdo>can I connect it manually via busybox perhaps?
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05:32<EmleyMoor>My main screen han blanked.How can I get it back?
05:39<EmleyMoor>Either my monitor is no longer wqrking in bigital, or Debian or the hardware is at fault
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05:47<bluewater>EmleyMoor: do you mean X will not start?
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06:22<EmleyMoor>Any way I can find out why my screen went blank last session?
06:26<EmleyMoor>The picture suddenly vanished while I was actively using the session and I couldn't get any further output. I could log in remotely, though - although because I can't currently get vino working (another problem I need help with) I had no way to reach my desktop session. I tried to reboot and an overheat (another problem I can't afford to fix) occurred
06:31<petn-randall>EmleyMoor: If your hardware is overheating, there's a good chance that's the issue.
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09:39<EmleyMoor>petn-randall: The disappearance of picture is a new symptom. The overheating isn't, but unfortunately I am limited to a workaround of "throttle back".
09:48<EmleyMoor>The overheating always results in a "no warning" poweroff
10:02<petn-randall>EmleyMoor: How do you know the GPU is still working as expecting when you have overheating issues?
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10:06<EmleyMoor>It's not the GPU that's overheating - though it is "old hat" and will be retired when I can afford to
10:08<EmleyMoor>It could be that a slight (and I mean slight) overheating related issue could, possibly, have knocked it out this time, but the fact is, the system continued to run, apart from this, for some time.
10:09<EmleyMoor>(in fact, it only overheated when I tried to reboot)
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10:14<petn-randall>... that doesn't answer the question though. First thing I'd check is measure the GPU temperature.
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10:15<EmleyMoor>petn-randall: Not been measuring it for a while but when I was, it was NEVER a problem
10:15<EmleyMoor>Usually sits at a pretty static 77C
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10:16<petn-randall>That's high for an idle desktop.
10:17<EmleyMoor>It's "high" but "not high for this GPU", I think
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10:23<blast007>is that 77C under heavy load?
10:24<EmleyMoor>Standard load
10:24<blast007>that's very high then
10:25<EmleyMoor>I really don't know how to measure the load on it in any meaningful way
10:25<blast007>well, is it 77C just sitting at your desktop? or is it while playing games?
10:26<EmleyMoor>Sitting or workig actively
10:26<EmleyMoor>(not playing games)
10:27<Posterdati>mnuhmnuh: installed 4.19 from backports! All is woking nice on the Ryzen 5 2400g
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10:28<mnuhmnuh>Posterdati: there ya go! :-) have fun.
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10:31<mnuhmnuh>blast007: my core ii quad sits at 77 c, but comfortably. seldom hear fans kick off. previously, laptops ran at lower temps, fans *constantly* blasting away.
10:32<blast007>mnuhmnuh: this is the GPU
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10:33<mnuhmnuh>ah, that may be different, yeah.
10:33<blast007>77C for a C2Q is still a higher than it should be.
10:34<blast007>that's more along the temp that it should hit under full load
10:35<mnuhmnuh>ther used to be a joke about all the advances in hardware efficiently eaten up by advances in fat software.
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11:28<Posterdati>mnuhmnuh: tx! :) :)
11:35<mnuhmnuh>Posterdati: like i said, nothing wrong w backports. it's real debian, just sid stuff ported to stable. slick idea when you think about it.
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11:49<petn-randall>*testing stuff ported to stable
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16:16<pgimeno>I think I've accidentally unmounted /dev. Is there anything that can be done to bring it back to normal, besides rebooting?
16:16<jesopo>`mount /dev`?
16:16<pgimeno>mount: can't find /dev in /etc/fstab
16:17<jesopo>rip
16:17<jesopo>idk then
16:17<pgimeno>I've read it's a tmpfs managed by udev
16:20<pgimeno>is there a way to tell udev "regenerate /dev" or something?
16:24<pgimeno>hm, this helped: https://askubuntu.com/questions/18282/rebuild-accidentally-deleted-dev
16:24<pgimeno>but I still can't create pty's
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16:26<ach>http://reactivated.net/writing_udev_rules.html
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16:28<ach>i thought just that is importants to know for cases with udev
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16:43<mnuhmnuh>pgimeno: i've never seen tempfs used for /dev. hard to believe it's a good idea.
16:45<mnuhmnuh>udev on /dev type devtmpfs (rw,nosuid,relatime,size=2009268k,nr_inodes=502317,mode=755)
16:45<pgimeno>yeah, I couldn't check exactly but regenerating it created that
16:45<pgimeno>thanks
16:47<pgimeno>lesson learned: don't type 'umount dev' when there's no 'dev' in the current directory (I was managing a chroot)
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16:48<pgimeno>I've changed it to 'umount ./dev' which will probably avoid the issue in future
16:49<mnuhmnuh>except when you're logged in as root, and pwd == /
16:51<mnuhmnuh>i try to never cd / - use full pathname instead (/blah/yada/...
16:51<mnuhmnuh>)
16:55<pgimeno>I didn't do that. But umount dev on a directory where there was no dev, unmounted the root /dev somehow.
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17:02<mnuhmnuh>bizarre.
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17:33<JohnA>I am having a problem with "screen" if I open an application the window/screen for the app cannot be dragged,
17:33<JohnA>what the cause and how do i fix it?
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17:42<itd>judd info screen
17:42<judd>Package screen (misc, optional) in stretch/amd64: terminal multiplexer with VT100/ANSI terminal emulation. Version: 4.5.0-6; Size: 578.6k; Installed: 982k; Homepage: https://savannah.gnu.org/projects/screen; Screenshot: https://screenshots.debian.net/package/screen
17:42<itd>JohnA: Not that ^ "screen", right?
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17:46<JohnA>itd, not sure what you mean. video card is old but works firepro v5700,two LG 24m35 screens. everything was working until a cople of days ago when I did a long overdue update... that teach me...
17:48<itd>JohnA: Ignore it. Your use of quotes confused me.
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17:50<JohnA>itd, sorry, not my intent
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17:56<rwp>JohnA, Not enough description yet. The application window created upon launch can not be moved? Sounds like a window manager problem?
17:59<itd>JohnA: Don't worry about it. Which desktop environment/window manager are you using? What exactly did you update?
18:00<JohnA>itd, rwp : Cinnamon
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18:03<rwp>JohnA, So you start up the application. You said "open" it. Then it starts up a window. Then you use the mouse, left button down in the title bar, drag, and it doesn't drag?
18:03<rwp>JohnA, But when you do that same thing with other applications the window does move around? Is that right?
18:05<JohnA>using the desktop I I click on app to start it. and you correct the app window cannot be moved, neither can it be resized.
18:06<mnuhmnuh>JohnA: what app?
18:06<mnuhmnuh>JohnA: any app?
18:06<JohnA>mnuhmnuh, any app
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18:09<mnuhmnuh>could this be user config error, i wonder, in System --> Windows (or whatever).
18:10<mnuhmnuh>don't know why anyone would want that, but might be an option.
18:13<znoteer>I had something similar many years ago when I had no window manager running. JohnA, can you see a title bar at the top of the application window, and borders around the sides and bottom, or is it just the bare naked application screen that you see?
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18:19<JohnA>znoteer, the window(s) look perfectly normal (tilt e bar, icons ...)
18:20<mnuhmnuh>JohnA: you're running stretch/stable?
18:21<znoteer>JohnA: well that nixes my idea then. Looks like you have a window manager running.
18:22<JohnA>mnuhmnuh, yep
18:24<mnuhmnuh>JohnA: only suggestion i have is check bug reports on tracker.d.o; perhaps others have seen it?
18:25<mnuhmnuh>JohnA: package cinnamon
18:26<JohnA>mnuhmnuh, OK, thanks
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18:30*mnuhmnuh wanted to tell 'em reportbug cinnamon; maybe maintainer can explain. but they're gone now.
18:34<rwp>That seemed like one of those problems that can really only be debugged on the system with the problem. Because obviously it works okay everywhere else. :-(
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19:46<mnuhmnuh>rwp: agree, but w a bug report, maintainer can handhold them through it. do this, what's it say?
19:47<rwp>mnuhmnuh, It would certainly be a difficult problem to start off debugging. If you were there on the keyboard+mouse you would try things and look at ps -ef and stuff. But figuring that out remotely would be hard.
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19:48<mnuhmnuh>yup.
19:48<rwp>It's the kind of thing that I would want to see a reboot done. Then a full fresh update plus upgrade. Then another reboot just for good measure to ensure that all is clean. And then trying it again. Probably would "magically" work in that case.
19:49<mnuhmnuh>strange problem
19:49<rwp>And I would be checking for a Frankendebian system. Did things get installed from Unstable onto that Stable system. Just those symptoms and knowing that users do that too often I would think probably.
19:49<rwp>I have had weird cases face to face where people had installed from random 3rd party sites and nothing played together very well.
19:50<mnuhmnuh>still, cinnamon's related to gnome, so no surprise really. :-P
19:51<rwp>You know Cinnamon is fairly clean though. I don't use it for me but I did set that up for my 80 year old mechanic & wife. It works very well for them. Large icons and so forth.
19:52<mnuhmnuh>reportbug does grab a lot of system's context (sources.list?) so maintainer would have that sort of stuff to sanity check.
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19:54<mnuhmnuh>i liked cinnamon when i tried it; thought mate was even better (both, for those who like gnome). openbox for me.
19:59<mnuhmnuh>i wish all these wms would better hancle their menus. update-menus was supposed to handle that, but i've never seen that actually work.
20:00<rwp>I'm using i3 tiling window manager on my system. My favorite for years though was fvwm.
20:01<mnuhmnuh>used fvwm for years, but a long time ago. haven't looked at it in years. was easy to manage, i give it that.
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20:03<rwp>I went through 'awesome' for tiling. But truly awesome wm is not a good window manager. Moving from it to i3 was a fresh breeze. i3 is very nice.
20:03<rwp>but tiling managers are not for everyone.
20:04<mnuhmnuh>never even heard of awesome.
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20:10<rwp>AFAICS that is not a bad thing. I give it a thumbs down. But i3 is a definite thumbs up.
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20:21<mnuhmnuh>tiling, like bathroom tiles? no thanks. prefer traditional x. run app, put it where i want it, run xwininfo for geom., plug that into -geometry switch. hate it when wms (mate) ignore/override my prefs.
20:23<mnuhmnuh>how to override that? you can't; we are helping.
20:23<mnuhmnuh>ick.
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20:25<mnuhmnuh>hate *nix apps that insist on doing things the way mswindows does things. if i wanted that, i'd run windows.
20:29<rwp>Tiling window managers are for people who want a tiling window manager. I am currently working on a small laptop screen. I generally keep everything maximized to make full use of the small screen.
20:30-!-mode/#debian [+l 393] by debhelper
20:30<rwp>Someone with a desktop with a large screen, or better still multiple screens, will not be as pressed for screen space.
20:31<mnuhmnuh>yeah, i never do maximized, ever. always want to focus follows mouse, or alt-tab if you prefer i guess.
20:33<mnuhmnuh>my windows are always stepped, a little bit hanging out somewhere so mouse can focus them.
20:36<mnuhmnuh>i'm sure we users with our weird ways drive maintainers crazy. :-)
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21:04<synthea>I've found a bug in firefox. If I enable the canvas block (privacy.resistFingerprinting) and I enable screenshots, when I try to make a screenshot Firefox asks if blocking canvas from the current page. I deduced that firefox uses the canvas function for making screenshot, thus trying to autoblock himself. When should I report it? The procedure for reporting firefox esr bugs seems pretty fuzzy
21:05<synthea>*where
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21:16<synthea>hello?
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21:31<mnuhmnuh>synthea: just reportbug firefox-esr. if it's the wrong way, the maintainer will sort it out and get it to where it should have gone (at least in my experience, they will).
21:50<synthea>Why my bug about libdbus-glib still hasn't been answered after a week? Not even a single "give us more information" or whatever https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=922663
21:52<synthea>Yes I know that they do this thanklessly and yadda yadda, but...
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22:00<mnuhmnuh>synthea: they're also working on freezing buster, working towards next stable. and yeah, they are all volunteers, likely holding down jobs that pay the rent.
22:01<mnuhmnuh>synthea: they also have to deal with upstream devs, who you can say all the same things about.
22:03<mnuhmnuh>synthea: commercial software is worse, in my experience. you can wait for years for them to even acknowledge there's a problem to be dealt with.
22:03<synthea>mnuhmnuh: Problem is that stable should be bug-free already. I've seen rants from many people about the fact that hexchat doesn't work for long periods of time, for me this lifespan was reduced even to some minutes, I'm just getting tired of this situation
22:05<mnuhmnuh>synthea: then use slackware, or *bsd. perhaps debian's a poor fit for your use case.
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22:06<mnuhmnuh>synthea: there's hundreds of alternatives to choose from on distrowatch.
22:07<mnuhmnuh>synbiose: there's no such thing as bug free. that's dreaming.
22:08<mnuhmnuh>synbiose: what works for one piece of hardware for one user has no bearing on other users or other hardware.
22:09<mnuhmnuh>synbiose: synthea ^^ sorry.
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22:23<mnuhmnuh>since when was stable advertised as bug free?
22:26<synthea>mnuhmnuh: Never, but it should be the best attempt, and later to me it's like this is fading a bit
22:27<synthea>But it maybe just my impression, idk
22:28<synthea>*lately
22:31<mnuhmnuh>synthea: it is debian's best attempt. stable's a goal. better and better all the time, adding funtionality, and *bugs* to be squashed as it goes.
22:33<mnuhmnuh>synthea: sorry about hexchat. i tried it, liked it, prefer weechat. there's lots of alternatives for most anything. apt/apt-get/aptitude/wajig/...
22:36<mnuhmnuh>synthea: we're also all different users, with diff. requirements and ways of doing things, all using diff. hardware. not a simple equation to solve.
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22:37<synthea>mnuhmnuh: We would all need a modular chat client in retroarch fashion maybe
22:37<mnuhmnuh>linus never intended linux to run on anything but '386 intel. now look at it.
22:38<synthea>Yeah
22:38<synthea>Tbh the situation if poettering never invented systemd would be so much better already
22:38<drakonis>hot takes itc
22:39<mnuhmnuh>others want debian to go to rolling releases, when that was never a goal that debian wanted to do. if you want it, where's your code?
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22:41<drakonis>synthea: so, before systemd, every distribution had their own strange little quirks that made compatibility a nightmare
22:41<synthea>mnuhmnuh: I'm fine with stable, today people has too much the "shining new things" illness
22:41<mnuhmnuh>i've no prob. w systemd, as long as it works. i don't claim to know or understand it, but it does work. *nix evolves, woohoo.
22:41<drakonis>by the way, shining new things?
22:41<drakonis>i'm pretty sure that's a very strong generalization
22:42<synthea>drakonis: now it's all even more a nightmare because shitstemd is terribly bloated
22:42<drakonis>oh no
22:42<drakonis>the bloat keyword
22:42<drakonis>please don't call it shit
22:42<drakonis>have some respect
22:43<synthea>I won't, it's so much bad that torvalds said between the lines that init cannot be trusted anymore
22:44<drakonis>uhhh
22:44<mnuhmnuh>synthea: systemd reminds me of that win* thingy, but done right. i'm happy with it, so far.
22:45<synthea>mnuhmnuh: for me it's the opposite, if you look at poettering works he's ever been a windows fanboy
22:45<synthea>pulseaudio just reimplements in a poor way windows audio stack
22:45<mnuhmnuh>synthea: know nothing about him.
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22:46<synthea>He's the main dev of systemd, avahi and pulseaudio
22:46<mnuhmnuh>yeah, polymath? impressive.
22:47<drakonis>windows fanboy?
22:47<drakonis>chill out with the poettering is evil takes
22:48<drakonis>what linus torvald said is that he doesn't trust that init does the sane thing
22:48<drakonis>you're reading too much into it
22:48<mnuhmnuh>me, i'm an ietf fanboy. "we believe in rough consensus, and working code."
22:48<synthea>drakonis: yeah yeah sure
22:50<drakonis>the linux audio stack is alsa, friend.
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22:50<drakonis>plus stop ranting about the evils of pulseaudio, it is far better today than it ever was
22:51<drakonis>plus pipewire is coming and should be a clean start
22:52<mnuhmnuh>i'm sure, back in the day, there were many *nix traditionalist who thought x window was anathema.
23:00<drakonis>oh yes
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23:19<mnuhmnuh>synthea: remember, ms signs non-disclosure agreements w mfgrs, so they get all the inside story details. linux gets none of that. no surprise foss is always behind or barely keeping up.
23:20<synthea>drakonis: casually it happened after poettering has leaved the project, surely it is better
23:20<synthea>mnuhmnuh: wdym?
23:21<mnuhmnuh>still works better for me for what i want from my box.
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23:21<drakonis>mnuhmnuh: mfgrs?
23:22<drakonis>synthea: vOv
23:22<drakonis>i don't know why that matters
23:22<drakonis>it works now
23:23<synthea>well if you don't see...
23:23<synthea>mnuhmnuh: systemd, pulseaudio or...
23:23<drakonis>plus, the time before pulseaudio was a lot worse
23:25<drakonis>no more incompatible audio systems for each desktop environment
23:25<mnuhmnuh>synthea: mfgr == manufacturer (nvidia, soundblaster, ...).
23:27<synthea>drakonis: just install jackd, set it at low-settings by default and wrap your desktop around it. It's not that difficult, there was absolutely no need for pulseaudio
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23:29<drakonis>http://0pointer.de/blog/projects/when-pa-and-when-not.html
23:30<mnuhmnuh>synthea: uh, well, there was. when i looked into jack for a musician buddy, debian didn't release kernels compiled w jack required settings. it'd been a while since i'd compiled a kernel, so ... sigh.
23:30<drakonis>pro audio software etc etc
23:30<drakonis>its not so simple to actually set it up
23:30<drakonis>jack is a very specific use case
23:31<drakonis>it requires setup
23:31<drakonis>its not the kind of stuff you should ship on a distro out of the box
23:32<mnuhmnuh>not one whose goal is stable for servers.
23:33<mnuhmnuh>jack, on a server? r u nuts?
23:33<drakonis>also sending bluetooth audio
23:34<drakonis>jack isn't for consumer hardware
23:34<drakonis>its for people that work with music
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23:55<synthea>drakonis: raspbian comes without pulseaudio and uses jackd as audio daemon, and it works fine
23:56<synthea>mnuhmnuh: if you use a server you probably won't even need an audio daemon
23:56<drakonis>what if you want a audio server?
23:57<synthea>Plus if it works on a raspi on everytime I guess it can work on a server
23:57<drakonis>it doesn't come with jack lol
23:58<synthea>drakonis: strange, both jackd and jackd2 are installed, and I haven't touched anything
23:58<synthea>:)
23:59<drakonis>?
23:59<synthea>I have raspbian
23:59<drakonis>i looked into what comes with raspbian by default
---Logclosed Tue Feb 26 00:00:01 2019