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#debian IRC Logs for 2019-02-27

---Logopened Wed Feb 27 00:00:01 2019
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00:10<lhvf>Someone available, right now?
00:14<jmcnaught>lhvf: this is primarily a support channel, not somewhere a lot of development talk happens. According to the wiki there's a #debian-gnome channel, but the answer will probably be that buster will ship with the version of GNOME it currently has
00:17<lhvf>jmcnaught: I hope that be the version of GNOME in 3.32, because it's almost ending the time to 'Full Freeze' on Buster, and Ubuntu 19.04 needs it on Dayly Build. And it doesn't was included on Repositories of neither Ubuntu nor Debian yet.
00:18<mnuhmnuh>lhvf: #debian-mentors would be a good place to ask such hot button scary stories. bon chance.
00:19<mnuhmnuh>lhvf: testing and sid --> #debian-next
00:20<lhvf>Will talk on #debian-dev or #debian-bugs and the people ridicularize me, because all that I was writting repeated in an echo, as a buggy. Used Riot in the past, and will used anymore for
00:21<lhvf>It's better #debian-mentors or #debian-mentors? #debian-gnome has almost absolutely nobody, is empty, no responses for what I written until today.
00:22<lhvf>*#debian-mentors or #debian-next, I mean.
00:26<lhvf>mnuhmnuh: Seems like #debian-mentors is meant for Beginning Developers in the journey of packaging to archive; and the #debian-next, besides Development versions, is also meant for users of Testing or Sid.
00:27<lhvf>*users testing and giving your feedback on it's usagings.
00:28<mnuhmnuh>lhvf: as i understand it's where the greybeards will enlighten --> point to what you need do next.
00:29<mnuhmnuh>been a long time since i lurked there.
00:29<mnuhmnuh>quietly, like a mouse.
00:32<lhvf>mnuhmnuh: It's important to Debian have GNOME 3.32 on the Repositories. I've tried to talk with Jeremy Bicha on Freenode #ubuntu-gnome, but nobody responded there, Then I went to #ubuntu, and the people adivised me to go to #ubuntu-off-topic.
00:32<lhvf>Then I went for there, and the people advised me to go to #debian.
00:35<lhvf>Will join #debian-next under this timezone, and I'll try to find someone to respond my questions, at this hour.
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00:38-!-sidmo__ is "sidmo" on #debian-next #debian-offtopic #debian-kde #debian
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00:39-!-datacrusher is "dtcrhsr" on #debian #area31
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00:42-!-jm_ is "." on #debian
00:42<mnuhmnuh>lhvf: mailing list debian-users? loved that when i was there.
00:43<mnuhmnuh>don't have to subscribe to post, last time i looked; could have changed.
00:54<lhvf>mnuhmnuh: The situation is this: Ubuntu 19.04 `Disco Dingo`, as all versions, includes an old version of Nautilus. Then, if 19.04 includes GNOME 3.32, it will include Nautilus 3.30. And Nautilus 3.30 is already on Debian Repositories.
00:55<lhvf>This is why is nothing to complain in Debian, because Buster will fully support GNOME 3.30, using Nautilus 3.30.
00:56<lhvf>Currently is on version 3.31.x on gnome-shell and gnome-dekstop packages, waiting to out from Sid.
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00:58<mnuhmnuh>why should debian care about an *buntu prob? *buntu's not debian.
00:58<lhvf>In fact, 3.31.x is on Experimental.
01:00<mnuhmnuh>if it will be fixed, ubuntu's the one that'll do it.
01:00<lhvf>I don't have good experiences on Ubuntu GNOME. Now the Ubuntu GNOME became the default, and the Canonical efforts go to GNOME. And the things stayed better with more concentration on this development.
01:02<lhvf>The things became better, because the Canonical wouldn't a totatlly `crappy` for the user, correcting almost all critical bugs, before delivery the final version, that isn't stable all-in-one, Needs to be update at the beginning.
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01:03-!-struchu is "struchu" on #suckless #debian-next #debian
01:04<lhvf>*A guy said to me that doesnt encountered any Bug on Bionic Beaver (aka 18.04), and if would had encountered panics and crashings, he would migrate to Debian.
01:06<lhvf>Maybe if he ran on terminal the softwares, he would to encounter some debugging errors. Other guy, that I showed he the Debian Jessie, cares about debugging, and installed Jessie, and now uses Stretch (all with GNOME, that him wondered that he was enchanted)..
01:07<lhvf>mnuhmnuh: Sorry, I'll talk about Support here. Excuse me.
01:09*mnuhmnuh just sounds very pebkac to me, sorry.
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01:11<mnuhmnuh>know whay they say, if you can't explain it, you don't know it.
01:13<mnuhmnuh>i don't know ubunto; very tangential shallow depth usage. so just my opinion; ubuntu prob, so ...
01:14<lhvf>mnuhmnuh: I have to go to Bed. It's 3 hours of Morning on my location. All is explained now. And nothing to bother about GNOME, everything is Ok. Only Ubuntu will encounter GNOME Nautilus prolems.
01:16<lhvf>mnuhmnuh: Thanks for the Tips. Expect Debian Buster be great, solid and Stable since the beginning SecureBoot Support that works truly.
01:16<lhvf>*and had SecureBoot Support that really works.
01:16<lhvf>[and have]
01:18<lhvf>and have and brings a SecureBoot Support that works truly (I mean)..
01:22<lhvf>mnuhmnuh: Is probable that Debian Buster includes only Kernel 4.19, because this will be LTS.
01:25<mnuhmnuh>i still run stock stretch 4.9.0-8. no problems.
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01:25<lhvf>mnuhmnuh: I was afraid that Kernel 4.9 would be EOL before Debian Stretch would end its Support. But the Projected EOL is not this.
01:26<lhvf>I've seen that 4.14 was giving some troubles to people here, in old chats that I accompanied.
01:26<lhvf>I hope that 4.19 be at least good for all.
01:26<mnuhmnuh>you can install multiple kernels. upgrades don't blow away previous installed.
01:28<mnuhmnuh>choose which to boot at boot, or via /etc/default/grub
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01:34<jm_>it's a bit ironic that 4.19 had that nasty fs corruption issue :)
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01:35-!-mnuhmnuh is "keeling" on #debian-offtopic #debian-next #debian
01:36<mnuhmnuh>woohoo, automatic weechat /msg nickserv identify ... finally, sweet! been banging my head on that a long time.
01:39<lhvf>mnuhmnuh: I'm planning to install `qweechat` on a Debian-Live with Persistence. The current version of WeeChat needs at least what PHP version? I've not assembled the package from GitHub.
01:40<lhvf>[*I've not yet]
01:41<mnuhmnuh>qweechat not found; mis-spell? weechat? good app. works.
01:41<mnuhmnuh>Depends: weechat-curses (>= 1.6-1+deb9u2)
01:42<lhvf>mnuhmnuh: Its this package (seems not to be on Repositories): <>
01:43<lhvf>It's a GUI in Python for WeeChat. Maybe it works on Debian Wheezy. Don't knows, because don't have tested yet.
01:43<mnuhmnuh>see bug reports for similar on tracker.d.o package name weechat
01:45<lhvf>I will compile it git cloning from GitHub, when I have time. Will not use packaged version, because Wheezy is EOL since May previous year..
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01:45<mnuhmnuh>lhvf: get it from upstream, install in ~/bin or /usr/local, track down depends, ...
01:46<lhvf>mnuhmnuh: This is what I'll discover in the next days.
01:48<lhvf>If nothing resolves, I'll have to install Jessie or Stretch anyway. Was complaing about new Microsoft requirements for GitHub, and get that Windows XP and Vista were excluded for a feature.
01:49<lhvf>On #firefox (MozNet). The conclusion is that only Firefox 59+ would function the balloon timestamps feature, Vista and XP are out, and that Mozilla Firefox 52.8.0, unexpectedly would function the mouse hover balloon, but slowling.
01:50<mnuhmnuh>why can i not control emacs' startup geometry? it's driving me nuts. wrong no. lines, wrong line length, start pos'n. grr.
01:51<lhvf>And Google Chrome doesn't have 32-bits builds and versions to Ubuntu 12.04 and Debian 7 alltogether,
01:51<mnuhmnuh>driving me back to fvwm or dwm.
01:53<rwp>mnuhmnuh, What was the secret for weechat and nickserv?
01:54<jm_>mnuhmnuh: man page mentions -g geometry, --geometry geometry - does it not work?
01:55<mnuhmnuh>too many variables. i'm new to weechat and irc, i don't do email anymore, i'm instead of, ...; i could go on.
01:56<mnuhmnuh>geom prob is emacs. no weechat prob.
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01:58-!-Xinayder is "Alexandre O." on #oftc
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02:01<lhvf>mnuhmnuh: Is more secure to use a IRC Client, that have a Secure Socket Layer, for don't appear the IP, like me here with WebChat. I'll try to configure qweechat on a Persistent Debian-Live.
02:01<mnuhmnuh>in ~/.weechat/irc.conf i see "debian.command = "/msg nickserv identify PWORD NICK"
02:01<lhvf>*Debian-Live 7.11 initially.
02:04<rwp>Good deal! I am using a combination of irssi, which I have used for years, and emacs erc. Plus znc too. I actually have all three in the pipeline for different features.
02:06<rwp>mnuhmnuh, What window manager are you using? The emacs geometry problem is likely more related to window manager than emacs.
02:09<lhvf>I've to try newer Debian Systems for do properly my tasks and things, and would prefer to use Debian-Live with persistence.
02:10<lhvf>MultiBootUSB (< >) is having dependencies near Debian Stable. If Sundar became a Debian Maintainer, some Debian Core Developer, should track dependencies and let it Linthian free.
02:11<lhvf>Lintian, I mean.
02:12<lhvf>Where should I to ask to RFP MultiBootUSB?
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02:16<mnuhmnuh>rwp: openbox at the moment. was controllable w fluxbox, but not mat.
02:16<mnuhmnuh>rwp: openbox at the moment. was controllable w fluxbox, but not mate.
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02:16<rwp>Those are all quite good window managers. Good choices.
02:17<rwp>I used fvwm for many years. It is still my longest term favorite. But I have converted to tiling managers the last few years. Using i3 now as my favorite tiling manager.
02:18<mnuhmnuh>rwp: still, always have to drag emacs' geom & pos'n back at startup. just emacs & in ~/.xsession.
02:19<rwp>Since I am using a tiling manager I haven't been setting geometry manually for a while but I am surprised that is not working.
02:19*mnuhmnuh er, /usr/bin/emacs &
02:19<rwp>Makes me want to switch window managers long enough to test it out and see if it really is not working.
02:20<mnuhmnuh>yeah, me too. why the conflict all of a sudden?
02:22<rwp>Why /usr/bin/emacs using the full path? Hard coded paths are a peeve of mine since they are fragile.
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02:25<mnuhmnuh>rwp: no, that's me using /usr/bin/emacs in ~/.xsession - full path good practice.
02:26<lhvf>mnuhmnuh: Any idea where should I ask to RFP MultiBootUSB? Or forward for analyse the inclusion of this software to be packaged. It is with dependencies synchonized to Debian Stable.
02:26<rwp>I also should be able to tell i3 that emacs is a floating window and then test it that way too.
02:26<lhvf>The Developer of the mentioned software prefers to use Debian as him main "Productive OS" .
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02:27<mnuhmnuh>lhvf: serendipity. :-)
02:28<lhvf>I'll try #debian-mentors Mailiming List firstly. Because I don't know what is treatment given there, and to some people guide where should ask to me.
02:29<lhvf>*Mailing Lists (I've typed wrong).
02:30<mnuhmnuh>lhvf: -mentors is very civilized. greybeards have no patience for childishness.
02:30<lhvf>mnuhmnuh: As seen in the < >, seems that Debian Mailing should also be pursued as a method, a way for RFP.
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02:30<lhvf>[*that Debian Mailing Lists]
02:31<dpkg>Request For Package (RFP) is the way to ask for a piece of software to be included in Debian. See, the section on that page "Adding new entries with "reportbug"" is a good place to start. Technically, a RFP is a wishlist bug filed against "wnpp" with a title beginning "RFP: ", ask me about <wnpp>. The best way of getting software packaged is to do it yourself: ask me about <nmg>.
02:31<mnuhmnuh>think marketing theory. attack from all sides, all vectors. target must have a soft spot, achilles heel.
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02:34<lhvf>mnuhmnuh: mnuhmnuh: The Sundar (@mbusb on GitHub), would should became a Debian Maintainer. He have the enough skills for lead a Project. I'll futurely tell him about this possibility.
02:35<lhvf>*Sorry for the double ping.
02:36<rwp>mnuhmnuh, I set i3 to float Emacs windows. Doing that I find that emacs ignores -g,--geometry settings. Also ignores Xresource settings. Not good.
02:37<mnuhmnuh>weechat figured it out; didn't double-ping here. debian always welcomes. often its besat feature.
02:37<mnuhmnuh>weechat figured it out; didn't double-ping here. debian always welcomes. often its best feature.
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02:38<mnuhmnuh>not good, zactly. what happened?
02:39<lhvf>mnuhmnuh:jm_ Thanks for the assistance. I'll save our conversation and day for the thegrebs posteriorly mine access. All said here until the moment was useful.
02:39<mnuhmnuh>i knowlots of things ignore xresources, but emacs?
02:39<lhvf>Bye for all.
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02:40<mnuhmnuh>hope i helped.
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02:47*mnuhmnuh vilified for all time for not reporting bug, thought _must_ be user error. doofus.
02:50<rwp>I am still surprised that it isn't doing what we think it should be doing. Because surely most people are using emacs in graphics mode these days. I assume I am one of the few throwbacks who use it in xterm in text console mode.
02:52<mnuhmnuh>emacs -nw ? woprks for me nice in xterm, all the time.
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02:57<mnuhmnuh>rwp: just as easy to blame x window, as emacs. what does a dm + wm + de + theme + yada do/end up with, really?
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02:58<rwp>I am usually using emacs within a tmux session. Therefore that just works out best for me.
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02:59<rwp>Since i3 is not really meant for floating windows there may be a problem there even if something was working correctly. So I probably still need to test using a different window manager before I can really say "confirmed" but something does seem wrong there.
03:01<mnuhmnuh>do x window, 21st c. filtered through today's devs *get* geometry startup settings vis a vis x window? hmm.
03:03<mnuhmnuh>evolution, great, but please don't break anything. :-)
03:04*mnuhmnuh ya gotta phd, great. just don't touch nothin'.
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03:14<mnuhmnuh>huh, drat. plug in a pair of earbuds to my computer's external speakers, and only right hand one sends. left silent.
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04:03<furrymcgee>what user id is www-data?
04:04<petn-randall>furrymcgee: `id www-data` will tell you.
04:05<jm_>also grep www-data /usr/share/base-passwd/passwd.master
04:06<tomg>wouldn't grep ^www-data /etc/passwd also work?
04:07<jm_>yeah - I assumed the user does not exist, otherwise petn-randall's answer will already help
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04:10<codingquark>Is there a way to get all debian docs (wiki) offline? For example, I want to read having it offline will be amazing.
04:11<furrymcgee>thanks you jm_, I didnt know base-passwd and was looking for a definition in the source package
04:11<jm_>furrymcgee: enjoy
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04:14<petn-randall>codingquark: You can always use your favourite tool to mirror it, or just browse the pages and then set your browser to offline.
04:14<petn-randall>codingquark: There's no offline dump of it, it's that what you're asking.
04:16<codingquark>petn-randall: I see. Indeed I was looking for an offline version, not dump, that was suited to be read inside text editors or man pages or the likes. Thanks :)
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04:22<EmleyMoor>Is there a way, using lighttpd on Debian, of restricting access to the contents of one directory to local networks only while leaving the rest accessible from anywhere?
04:26<jm_>EmleyMoor: apparnetly
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04:27<jm_>,versions lighttpd
04:27<judd>Package: lighttpd on amd64 -- wheezy: 1.4.31-4+deb7u4; wheezy-security: 1.4.31-4+deb7u5; jessie: 1.4.35-4+deb8u1; jessie-security: 1.4.35-4+deb8u1; stretch: 1.4.45-1; buster: 1.4.53-1; sid: 1.4.53-1
04:27<jm_>looks to be simpler in version 2
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04:37<mnuhmnuh>codingquark: /usr/share/docs if you install $pkg-doc
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04:38<codingquark>mnuhmnuh: that won't include things like that link I gave, yeah?
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04:40<mnuhmnuh>codingquark: yes, will. pkg sored locally acessible off-line.
04:41<codingquark>mnuhmnuh: that would be amazing! Can you give an example for how to get offline?
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04:42<mnuhmnuh>find terminal
04:42<codingquark>That page is not about the package "terminal", but it lists terminal emulators available.
04:43<codingquark>It then links to all the entries in packages list which can then be further viewed for deps etc the normal way
04:52<EmleyMoor>Hmmm... wheer do I "use" that code?
04:52<EmleyMoor>where *
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05:15<mnuhmnuh>weechat-doc ? whatever you want to watch.
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06:32<daniv>hmm... the file renamer app disappeared in xfce?
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06:51<daniv>doh! theme icons confused me x_X
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08:37<olspookishmagus>phpbb is no longer available as package, what buletin board is available though?
08:38<olspookishmagus>and more importantly how could I search for the answer using the apt utilities
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08:42<olspookishmagus>I guess nothing and that won't be a suprise as this type of software is dying
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08:56<olasd>maintaining modern web apps as debian package is a sisyphean task and fewer and fewer people are doing it
08:57<olasd>olspookishmagus: these days I'd probably look around discourse as a bulletin-board style web app; but the deployment story, last I checked, was "just run this docker container"
09:00<olasd>mailman3 and hyperkitty are mailing lists with a frontend masquerading as a bulletin board; that has Debian packages and maybe it would fit your usecase
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09:01<olasd>( as an example of an active list hosted by mailman3 with the hyperkitty frontend)
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10:24<mathsaey>I'm trying to install debian 9 on an AMD Ryzen 2400G. However the installer becomes all glitchy. Based on some googling, it turns out I need a newer kernel to work with my CPU.
10:24<mathsaey>What's my best option to install debian 9 with a newer kernel? Should I install testing and "downgrade" my apt sources to strecth? Or is there some way to generate an install iso with a newer kernel?
10:25<petn-randall>mathsaey: There's the debootstrap method described in the release notes. There used to be inofficial installers with newer kernels, but that's unfortunately not the case anymore.
10:26<judd>Available kernel versions are: experimental: 4.20.0-trunk-686-pae (4.20-1~exp1); sid: 4.19.0-3-686-pae (4.19.20-1); buster: 4.19.0-2-686-pae (4.19.16-1); stretch-backports: 4.19.0-0.bpo.2-686 (4.19.16-1~bpo9+1); stretch: 4.9.0-8-686-pae (4.9.144-3); jessie-backports: 4.9.0-0.bpo.6-686-pae (4.9.88-1+deb9u1~bpo8+1); jessie: 4.9.0-0.bpo.8-686-pae (4.9.110-3+deb9u5~deb8u1); wheezy-backports:
10:26<judd>3.16.0-0.bpo.4-686-pae (3.16.39-1+deb8u1~bpo70+1); wheezy: 3.2.0-6-686-pae (3.2.102-1)
10:27<jhutchins_wk>mathsaey: I would say do a very minimal install, probably with debootstrap, and upgrade to the backport kernel. What kernel do you need to support your hardware? What hardware is not supported?
10:29<mathsaey>I didn't know about debootstrap, I'm looking it up now. jhutchins_wk, according to what I can find, the integrated gpu is not supported in kernels < 4.15 (though people seem to recommend using 4.16 at the very least).
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10:33<mathsaey>The debootstrap install procedure seems fairly complicated. Do you recon it is easier than installing testing and downgrading?
10:35<petn-randall>mathsaey: Downgrading is unfortunately not feasible, as downgrading is not supported.
10:35<petn-randall>mathsaey: You could install buster, and just ride out the remaining bumps until release. I recommend that only if you've already got your feet wet with Debian before.
10:35<petn-randall>, though.
10:37<mathsaey>I have some debian experience, though I've only used stable before. I assume it's largely the same experience, just with more updates and less stability?
10:38<mathsaey>I only don't know what the testing -> stable procedure is like. I assume the repo is "frozen" at some point, after which I would only receive security updates and the like? Or is there some work to be done on my end?
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10:41<petn-randall>mathsaey: The full freeze is not far away, at which point only release-critical bugfixes will be allowed. Security updates don't arrive there timely, as they need to migrate for 10 days through sid first. However, at some point during the freeze the security team will pick up the work.
10:41<grove>There is no testing -> stable procedure. It's not supported, but looking at the link petn-randall just posted, I would say that *at the moment* the buster experience is probably (I haven't run testing for several releases) quite close to what you describe
10:41<petn-randall>grove: mathsaey was referring to how testing becomes stable (so the release procedure), I assume.
10:42<mathsaey>Thanks. I did not know the release of buster was that close. Since that is the case using buster seems to be the path of least resistance in my case.
10:43<petn-randall>mathsaey: I agree, though the release is probably ~3 months or so away.
10:44<mathsaey>Hmmm, it's for my home server so I can live with that :). Thanks again!
10:46<jhutchins_wk>mathsaey: The freeze is also the period where they address major breakage and take the time to fix it correctly, so it's possible to have your system down for a matter of weeks.
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10:47<marcony>hello everyone
10:47<jhutchins_wk>mathsaey: Since it's just a GUI issue, I would do a non-GUI install, upgrade to the backport kernel, and finish by installing the desktop task.
10:47<marcony>maybe somebody can help me with GRUB error?
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10:49<marcony>[ 0.425580] ACPI Error: Needed type [Reference], found [Integer] (____ptrval____) (20180810/exresop-69)
10:49<marcony>[ 0.425590] ACPI Error: AE_AML_OPERAND_TYPE, While resolving operands for [OpcodeName unavailable] (20180810/dswexec-427)
10:49<marcony>[ 0.425597] ACPI Error: Method parse/execution failed \_PR.CPU0._PDC, AE_AML_OPERAND_TYPE (20180810/psparse-516)
10:49<marcony>somebody can help me with this?
10:49<petn-randall>marcony: That's not a grub error, that's an ACPI error.
10:50<marcony>petn-randall, maybe you know how to fix that?
10:51<marcony>I think it is because of my old BIOS version.posible?
10:53<petn-randall>marcony: Is your machine misbehaving in any way that you think the ACPI error is the cause?
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10:55<petn-randall>marcony: Other than updating your BIOS there's not much to do. Lots of BIOS vendors implement ACPI in a buggy way, and the kernel just reports that.
10:56<marcony>no my mashine working with no error, just i getting this error on the way booting my mashine
10:56<petn-randall>marcony: Then you can safely ignore it.
10:57<marcony>but why i getting that error, maybe you can explain?
10:58<dpkg>Advanced Configuration and Power Interface (ACPI) is a power management interface that gives more control to the BIOS, or horribly horribly broken, or "run this arbitrary code in ring 0", or generally better than <APM>. For a list of supported systems/BIOSes, see . See also <acpid>, <suspend>.
10:58<petn-randall>marcony: It's debug output that's only relevant if you're a kernel developer.
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14:14<FinderX>Hi, I'm with an issue with apt-get update. Can anyone help with my problem ?
14:16<bremner>FinderX: first tell us the problem
14:17<FinderX>yes, I tried to update and get this message "E: Release file for is expired (invalid since 1d 4h 10min 34s). Updates for this repository will not be applied."
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14:25<FinderX>@bremmer by goggling appears to be a problem with the mirror, I not try change mirror yet...
14:26<bremner>FinderX: yeah, that's the obvious test. perhaps to
14:27<FinderX>I'm gonna try and tell you the results
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14:33<FinderX>Ok, now is working. I change the mirror in /etc/apt/sources.list
14:34<FinderX>from to save the file and try again and is working now.
14:35<FinderX>Apparently a problem with the US mirror then.
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14:52<_kab>Are Debian kernels with the same release (uname -r), but in different versions (uname -v) expected to be compatible with each other? Those would be shipped using the same Debian package. We're having issues with ip6table_nat.ko being loaded correctly. The server is first installed using a modified debian iso, updated and configured after that. During configuration additional kernel modules are
14:52<_kab>loaded. My current suspicion is that the upgrade of the kernel package replaces ip6table_nat.ko with a newer version of the same kernel release that then cannot be loaded correctly due to slight differences in the compiler configuration.
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14:58<jelly>_kab: kernels with same ABI have a compatible _public_ ABI exposed, but there's zero guarantee of internal modules being compatible. You absolutely need to reboot as soon as possible after a linux-image-* upgrade, and yes some modules miht be prevented from loading due to incompatible symbols
15:01<jelly>this makes Ubuntu's style of kernel patches (_always_ change `uname -r`) a lot more friendly
15:01<_kab>So the only feasible way to prevent such issues would be pinning the kernel package (as in the release specific one) until such time when I can guarantee a restart is expected if I want to preserve functionality of all kernel modules I guess.
15:02<jelly>just reboot after upgrading the kernel package(s)
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15:03<_kab>I'm afraid I have little control over how other people install (and run) their servers ;)
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15:04<_kab>I wish Debian would go Ubuntu style here, but yeah. Thank you very much jelly.
15:04<jelly>"do not patch if you do not plan to reboot" isn't that complex
15:04<jelly>it might. But Debian moves at a glacial pace with policy decisions.
15:06<_kab>Upgrades are fully automated. It's basically a requirement because silly people don't maintain their stuff and we don't want year old vulnerabilities putting users at risk.
15:06<_kab>Automated reboots on kernel upgrades are on the roadmap for the coming months though.
15:06<_kab>So I only need a quick and dirty fix.
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15:16<mnuhmnuh>_kab: needrestart?
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15:17<mnuhmnuh>aptitude search ...
15:17<bremner>doesn't unattended-upgrades nag you if it does a kernel upgrade?
15:17<_kab>We don't use unattended-upgrades
15:17<mnuhmnuh>i don't use unattended, don't know.
15:18<_kab>It's a custom thing to make sure certain sanity checks are met.
15:18<_kab>We also already restart daemons with outdated libs
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15:20<_kab>Because full server restarts are a bit scary those aren't automated yet. The fear is that a couple of hundred dead servers at once might give us both a lot of work and a bad image
15:20<_kab>So those are coordinated centrally in the near future
15:21<grawity>sounds a bit like those servers need automated rollback as well
15:21<_kab>There are backups of course
15:22<_kab>But servers are deployed at on site and not in a data center
15:22<grawity>I don't mean restoring from backup, I mean something like embedded-style keeping a "previous OS" snapshot and automatically rebooting into it on failure
15:22<_kab>By people who generally have little experience
15:23<_kab>How far would that need to go back?
15:23<_kab>Servers sometimes run ... for far too long
15:24<grawity>I think sometimes they do only because reboots are scary
15:24<_kab>There's no way to guarantee any consistency. You'd need KVM over IP
15:24<_kab>Yeah good point ;)
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16:37<mnuhmnuh>grawity: s/scary/expensive/ - if box is pouring $ into the cracks in the floor every minute it's inaccessible, nobody goes there happily.
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16:46<mnuhmnuh>servers should be rebooted when they should be rebooted, not scheduled every $timeframe (month, three mo., ...).
16:47<mnuhmnuh>but when you've hundreds, that's messy.
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16:53<jhutchins_wk>_kab: You need a central management system, like ansible or puppet, and possibly something like spacewalk.
16:57*mnuhmnuh jhutchins_wk, cool. tx.
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17:20<mnuhmnuh>pretty pics?
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17:28<znoteer>mnuhmnuh: 404 Not Found
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17:30<mnuhmnuh>znoteer: ^^
17:31*mnuhmnuh the web (not net); pthoo. :-P
17:35<mnuhmnuh>crap, now where are they?!? i did search ansible on wiki.d.o then full text search, then click on link at bottom of resulting page, worked, not 404.
17:35<mnuhmnuh>DebianEvents/de/2018/MiniDebConfHamburg (Ansible_best_current_practices_slides.odp)
17:38<mnuhmnuh>salzberg, hamburg; well there's your problem.
17:43<mnuhmnuh>the last time i thought of this stuff, big brother network monitor was cool.
17:43<znoteer>yeah, I found it, thanks.
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18:53<m0th3rsup3r10r>hi my computer is about 10 years old and it seems slow opening apps at times (especially chromium web browser) is there software to monitor where the bottlenecks are (eg. if its with the hard drive memory etc) some apps load quite quickly
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18:55<mnuhmnuh>m0th3rsup3r10r: atop may help - Advanced System & Process Monitor
18:55<m0th3rsup3r10r>mnuhmnuh, ok ill install that, thanks
18:56<mnuhmnuh>htop too?
18:56<somiaj>m0th3rsup3r10r: slow to load? or slow when running?
18:56<sarnold>m0th3rsup3r10r: this may help
18:57<m0th3rsup3r10r>m0th3rsup3r10r, slow to load, generally ok when running except it freezes from time to time
18:57<somiaj>m0th3rsup3r10r: webbrowers are beasts, and slow to load could just be a sign of your old harddrive and it is slow to read/put the browser into memeory, but once it is running in memeory it runs okay?
18:57<m0th3rsup3r10r>somiaj, generally yes unless its like a youtube video
18:58<somiaj>If it is freezing that is another problem, does it just freeze the browser, or your whole machine? How do you recover from a freeze.
18:58<sarnold>and the links around "Linux Performance Analysis in 60,000 Milliseconds" on quickly show how to use a variety of tools to help you measure your performance and try to find bottlenecks
18:58<mnuhmnuh>could be slow to load, display, slurp startup config & execute/alter to so, connect to peers/daughter processes, ...
18:58<m0th3rsup3r10r>somiaj, i generally wait a minute and it resumes
18:58<somiaj>Pages that use a lot of scripts (maybe youtube due to all of its adds and showing a video), this could be a sign of an older cpu and not using graphical acceleration for the video due to an older video card.
18:59<somiaj>m0th3rsup3r10r: the freezing sounds like a memeory issue, once your memory fills up, your machine will have to cache some of the memory to swap, since your hd is slow, this can freeze things until the cache is complete and some more memeory is free. Often adding memeory (if you can find any) can help in that case.
18:59<m0th3rsup3r10r>id say chromium is always slow to load, and sometimes pages make it freeze
19:00<somiaj>browsers are beasts, both in terms of cpu ussage (to many adds/scripts on pages these days) and memeory consuption. Most pages are designed for modern hardware, and can really put a strain on older hardware. 10 years isn't to bad, it could just be you need more memory
19:00<sarnold>if you're low on memory that'd be easy enough to spot -- run vmstat 1 in one terminal, start chromium, and watch the si/so columns
19:01<m0th3rsup3r10r>sarnold, ok let me try that just a sec
19:01<somiaj>running an addon like mnuhmnuh mentioned to block scripts can really help speed things up on lots of pages, and as sarnold said, check to see if it is really a memeory issue.
19:02<somiaj>also I think the new firefox (which is rewritten in rust) is now the faster/less resource use browser now (kinda like chromium was when it first came out, now it is a beast)
19:04<m0th3rsup3r10r>somiaj, yes firefox seems faster . . . here is the vmstat 1 for chrome:
19:05<somiaj>m0th3rsup3r10r: what is the output of free -h while chromium is running?
19:05<somiaj>I don't know vmstat that well to read that, maybe sarnold can help.
19:05<m0th3rsup3r10r>somiaj, when it is loading or running?
19:05<somiaj>after it is running and maybe after you goto a youtube page that is slow.
19:05<somiaj>I want to see memeory ussage in the case it is slowing down.
19:06<m0th3rsup3r10r>ok so you want to see it on a youtube page then for example, not just running
19:06<somiaj>yea, I want to see some point where chromium is using memeory, and get an idea for how much it is actually using.
19:08<sarnold>based on this vmstat 1 output it sure looks like you're both low on memory and spending a lot of time waiting for disk IO
19:09<somiaj>so increasing the memeory in the system could help you out alot (since the disk io could be waiting for swap)
19:09<m0th3rsup3r10r>it seems to vary too . . . like if i first start an app it is slower than if i close it and relaunch it if that's even possible
19:09<sarnold>m0th3rsup3r10r: yes, that's expected behaviour
19:09<somiaj>sometimes apps are partly running in memeory, so closing them doesn't completely close them.
19:09<sarnold>m0th3rsup3r10r: the second time you start it, much of the program will still be in memory (the numbers from the buff and cache lines)
19:09<somiaj>windows use to cheat to make it seem faster, it would load a lot of stuff into memeory at boot, so it seemed faster, but sure took a long time to boot.
19:09<mnuhmnuh>vmstat, swap in vs. swap out (write vs. read from, same as bytes in/out, look for big numbers which stand out, and then there's the 1/0 obscure columns. :-)
19:10<m0th3rsup3r10r>like when i start thunar it takes 10 seconds then if i close it and run again it is there again in a second or two
19:10<sarnold>m0th3rsup3r10r: if you had enough extra memory, the same could be done for subsequent starts of chromium. but in your case almost none of chromium's program files are in memory when you start it, so they all have to be fetched from disk
19:10<somiaj>m0th3rsup3r10r: that is cache working as expected.
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19:10<somiaj>m0th3rsup3r10r: increasing the memeory on that older machine will go a long ways to making it run reasonable with modern software.
19:10<sarnold>m0th3rsup3r10r: if this machine doesn't have an ssd, that'd be a good way to go way faster
19:11<sarnold>m0th3rsup3r10r: but adding memory may be cheaper and easier
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19:11<somiaj>(depending on how much money you want to spend on the machine, though ssds are fairly cheap these days)
19:11<m0th3rsup3r10r>somiaj, ok i guess i was wondering if it would be just pick up a new computer at walmart or something
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19:11<mnuhmnuh>m0th3rsup3r10r: i hate ff-esr for taking so $#@! long to display file:///usr/share/doc/ - infuriating.
19:11<somiaj>Your call, depends on what your use case is. You maybe able to find some used memeory for cheap and find that this computer works just fine for far less of a bill.
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19:11<m0th3rsup3r10r>sounds like a memory issue then more than likely
19:12<m0th3rsup3r10r>somiaj, well then there is the fact that it is a 10 year old hard drive . . . that thing is probably due to fail soon id imagine
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19:12<somiaj>I have plenty of harddrives older than that
19:13<somiaj>those 5400 rpm drives are a little bit slow, but to me they aren't that bad (though I've been spoiled with ssds lately so ...)
19:13<m0th3rsup3r10r>somiaj, my first computer had an ibm thinkstar so im very suspicious how long those hard drives last
19:13<sarnold>you can try smartctl to see if you can get smart data from the drive.. those are a pain in a the ass to understand though
19:13<somiaj>it varries a lot, I've had some drives die in a few years. I have other drives that were in a machine I built 10-15 years ago.
19:14<sarnold>I managed to miss the deathstars by a few months.. I had a handful of those 20s..
19:14<somiaj>and they are still going strong (though I only store data on my old drives, I've switched to ssds for my os)
19:15<m0th3rsup3r10r>smartctl is in a deb package?
19:15<sarnold>m0th3rsup3r10r: yes, smartmontools
19:16<m0th3rsup3r10r>i still have that drive on a shelf, wondering if its even worth it to try to recover data for it, im assuming it has to be rebuilt
19:16<m0th3rsup3r10r>I tried booting off a laptop recently and it was that familiar click of death
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19:16<m0th3rsup3r10r>so i shut it off immediately
19:17<sarnold>:( poor little clicky
19:17<m0th3rsup3r10r>i forgot about the class action lawsuit so i probably missed my chance on that
19:18<mnuhmnuh>some things can be better run from usbkey or cd, not hard drive install. runs cooler.
19:19<mnuhmnuh>live cd
19:19<m0th3rsup3r10r>maybe i should just use a usb drive
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19:20<sarnold>I suspect usb flash storage is nowhere near as reliable as hard drives
19:20<m0th3rsup3r10r>but i imagine there is still bottleneck accessing the data on the ide hard drive then too
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19:21<m0th3rsup3r10r>oh i thought we were talking about using flashdrive for OS
19:21<sarnold>yeah, IDE drives are nowhere close to even SATA spinning metal.. and modern systems are skipping SATA entirely, since it has an upper bandwidth limitation too..
19:22<m0th3rsup3r10r>what is the new thing these days besides ssd? i havent gotten a hard drive since sata
19:23<m0th3rsup3r10r>is nvme reliable for data storage?
19:25<m0th3rsup3r10r>looks expensive -- hope it is indeed as reliable as proven technologies
19:26<bremner>stone tablets are hard to beat for reliability
19:26<bremner>but the seek time is pretty awful
19:27<m0th3rsup3r10r>depends where the stone is from -- hopefully not E Europe like my thinkstar
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19:31<m0th3rsup3r10r>are the nvme devices being used in file servers or just desktop devices?
19:33<sarnold>I wonder which market segment has bought more .. my guess is there's more used in high-end servers than in desktop / laptop systems.. but apple ships a *lot* of systems. hmm.
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19:36*mnuhmnuh rosetta stone's history is sobering.
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20:21<mmj638>Getting some InRelease files expired errors on today. On stretch
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20:23<sarnold>the three IPs I got earlier all had up to date copies
20:23<sarnold>which IPs are you getting? which one(s) are out of date?
20:26<mmj638>The IPv4s are , , and what appear to be corresponding IPv6s - the issue is intermittent so it's probably only one of the three that's bad, not sure how to check
20:28<sarnold>I usually use curl's --resolve flag
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20:30<mmj638>I'm getting same dates as you. hmmm
20:31<sarnold>no ipv6 here, so no easy way to test that one..
20:33<mmj638>Getting same dates on IPv6. And yet errors persist in apt. apt-get update
20:36<sarnold>is apt perhaps using a proxy that curl wouldn't be using?
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20:39<mmj638>No, no proxy for apt. Happening (intermittently, today only) on 3 servers in different geographical locations, but pretty much same apt setup (vanilla-ish, based with added backports)
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20:40<mmj638>Not a big deal in my case as it still works fine after a retry or two
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21:14<woddf2>How do I get Wi-Fi to work again? I have the driver, but no amount of "ip link set wls1 up; iwconfig wls1 essid '<insert SSID here>'; dhclient -v wls1" works. It worked fine before a reboot. I do _not_ use NetworkManager or similar.
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21:15<woddf2>s/ works\./ works./
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21:15<woddf2>dhclient gets stuck at DHCPDISCOVER.
21:15<mnuhmnuh>see commented out in
21:16<sarnold>woddf2: what errors do you get? check stdout, stderr, dmesg, and dhclient logs if it logs somewhere..
21:17<woddf2>sarnold: DHCPDISCOVER on wls1 to port 67 interval 3
21:18<mnuhmnuh>woddf2: journalctl -b
21:19<woddf2>mnuhmnuh: It just suddenly started working. o_O I think running "wpa_supplicant -c/etc/wpa_supplicant.conf -iwls1 -B" must have fixed it.
21:20<mnuhmnuh>woddf2: well great. hope stays that way? :-)
21:21<mnuhmnuh>btw, not static ip, dynamic, dhcp from isp, not wifi - eth: "DHCPDISCOVER on enp2s0 to port 67 interval 7"
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21:27<mnuhmnuh>i'd make "ip link set wls1 up; iwconfig wls1 essid '<insert SSID here>'; dhclient -v wls1" a bash alias, or tell n-m how to do it (but prefer /etc/network/interfaces did it), then go pour coffee.
21:28<mnuhmnuh>fscking hardware.
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21:30<sarnold>I'd definitely rather fix /etc/network/interfaces :)
21:33<mnuhmnuh>sarnold: they do both work. different strokes for different folks. whatever floats your boat.
21:34<mnuhmnuh>interfaces would make it always on/available at boot; may not be what road warriors want.
21:35<mnuhmnuh>fsvo road warriors.
21:35<sarnold>just add / remove the 'auto' keyword as needed..
21:37<mnuhmnuh>ah hah! "wdm[718]: (==) Using system config directory "/usr/share/X11/xorg.conf.d" - woohoo! :-) been looking for this.
---Logopened Wed Feb 27 21:57:28 2019
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22:18<mnuhmnuh>rant: factoid bookmarked in w3m-el (emacs), tx!
22:18*mnuhmnuh excellent.
22:20<rant>mnuhmnuh: I've nfc what you're referring to, unless you mean you bookmarked that online factoid search link I provided to the jagoff spamming the channel with the bot :P
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22:21<mnuhmnuh>that, yup, tx.
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---Logclosed Thu Feb 28 00:00:23 2019