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#debian IRC Logs for 2019-04-22

---Logopened Mon Apr 22 00:00:07 2019
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01:45<aredboat>what do i do if i have questions about certain debian packages?
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02:08<rwp>aredboat, Asking questions is reasonable.
02:09<aredboat>Thank you. My issue is that I question the necessity of certain dependencies for quodlibet/exfalso
02:10<aredboat>namely, exfalso (a tag editor for music) seems to depend on a readthedocs theme that in turn depends on fonts
02:11<rwp>If you believe the Dependencies are not required then filing a bug ticket asking to have them removed is reasonable.
02:11<aredboat>and in addition, the online help of quodlibet, which depends on exfalso, doesn't seem to work either
02:11<rwp>If it is something that most people would want but is not always required then they might be made Recommends instead of Depends.
02:11<aredboat>I see. I'm not terribly familiar with how things are managed in Debian so I figured that I should ask here first
02:12<rwp>I might be the only one awake here at the moment. So not necessarily a representative sample of the population. It's fairly late here at the moment. :-)
02:13<rwp>A good resource is the debian-user mailing list. You might send a note there and start a discussion. More people would read it and you would get a more reasoned response.
02:14<aredboat>I see. Thank you! I'll try it.
02:14<aredboat>oh, exfalso already has an issue regarding the exact same thing :p
02:15<rwp>In the BTS? There you go then!
02:16<rwp>Are you talking about this one? about missing Dependencies?
02:16<aredboat> "Any reason exfalso depends on sphinx-rtd-theme-common"
02:19<rwp>Gotcha. That is from November last year. If you wanted you could add a note to it saying that you hit this too. It would keep the ticket fresh and show that there is interest in resolving it.
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12:20<sarnold>ullbeking: any luck?
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12:30<ullbeking>sarnold : you mean with my ipv6 installation problem? No, not yet. I am looking for another machine with an easier configuration so I can so bisect the problem somewhat.
12:30<sarnold>ullbeking: dang :(
12:33<ullbeking>Part of the issue is that this is haopening in a ppc64el vps, acrossed through a weird console. The admins' customer service is poor.
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12:59<sarnold>ullbeking: ugh :( I hadn't realized that :(
13:01<ullbeking>Yeah it is a tricky situation
13:01<ullbeking>I will report back ASAP
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13:18<nezZario>How does Debian pre-built packages work?... Are they built by automation from source at once? Or does each package maintainer handle their own binary?
13:20<jcrain>mostly they're built on automated debian machines from source packages, not developer owned machines
13:20<supaman>nezZario: pre-built packages? you mean the .deb files that are available through the debian repositories?
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13:20<nezZario>Yes exactly
13:21<jcrain>but debian developers do sometimes build on their own machines
13:21<supaman>like jcrain said, they are automatically built on debian machines
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13:22<supaman>the binaries are created once, stored in .deb files and when you fetch them with apt or synaptic you are not building the binaries
13:22<supaman>just unpacking the .deb file
13:23<nezZario>Got it.. I was just wondering who built the debs, was it each package maintainer or if the pkg maintainers just handled the source packages and they were built in mass by some quasi official Debian system
13:24<sarnold>I believe debian still allows maintainers to upload binaries
13:24<nezZario>Well wait, which one is it then?... They're allowed to upload binaries and if not then its handled by some automated system.... Or?
13:25<nezZario>I am imagining some Debian pkg build farm somewhere -?
13:25<sarnold>there is a buildd farm; but source-only uploads aren't mandatory:
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13:27<nezZario>Got it!
13:27<jcrain>binary uploads are sometimes necessary, new packages, for example, still have to be binary
13:27<supaman>most packages go through the source upload I think
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13:30<nezZario>jcrain: is there a technical reason for that?
13:31<user01>how do i calculate the best block size for a debian iso to a usb pen drive? i was always curious how one knows if the bs is optimal like 4M or 1028kB etc
13:31<user01>using dd
13:33<jcrain>nezZario: new packages have to be reviewed by the FTP Masters and I think it's easier for them to review binary packages than source packages. I don't think there's a hard technical reason for it though.
13:33<user01>like here i see 4M
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13:34<sarnold>user01: usually you just pick a largish power of two. you can measure a bunch of different sizes if you're going to be doing it often enough that saving a few seconds here or there would help
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13:43<sqrt{not}>user01: I think the dd block size only controls dd's buffers and reads and writes, it isn't affecting the usb stick's format
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13:54<blast007>you can also just use 'cp' to write a the debian installer ISO to a flash drive, as mentioned in the install guide:
13:54<jhutchins_wk>The block size is a part of the image.
14:01<sarnold>jhutchins_wk: what?
14:03<user01>blast007, dd is nice cause you can add an option to see status
14:03<jhutchins_wk>sarnold: The image is a formatted filesystem. Whatever blocksize it was created with will end up on the drive.
14:03<user01>blast007, you can do that with cp too?
14:04<sarnold>jhutchins_wk: yes, but that's not at all related to the blocksize option of dd
14:04<jhutchins_wk>user01: Any copy utility will work.
14:04<jhutchins_wk>sarnold: Correct.
14:04<user01>right but i like seeing the progress status
14:04<user01>when copying a 2.3 GB file
14:05<user01>dd can do that
14:05<sarnold>and not all cp(1) will write to a block device. some of them will just unlink the device node and put your file in place.
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14:29<nezZario>now, if I use debootstrap to generate images -- is that still using .udeb's ?
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14:31<jhutchins_wk>nezZario: debootstrap does a minimal install, not an image, and it uses the .deb files from the repos.
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14:36<nezZario>so when it says that udeb is "for the installer", it means it's for the actual _installation process_, ...
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14:44<jhutchins_wk>nezZario: The "installer" being the process that performs that installation.
14:46<nezZario>one last question for now - what actually determines what a minimal install is?
14:46<nezZario>is it a metapkg?
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14:46<jhutchins_wk>nezZario: I guess it depends on what you consider "minimal".
14:47<jhutchins_wk>nezZario: I think "just enough to run a console and be able to install more" would be a good description.
14:47<nezZario>I mean, what technically and literally determines what's installed as 'base'?
14:48<jhutchins_wk>nezZario: I believe the packages are marked "base".
14:49<jhutchins_wk>nezZario: What's your goal?
14:52<ullbeking>sarnold: i have made some potential progress...
14:52<ullbeking>Apr 22 18:49:57 in-target: Unexpected error; command not executed: 'debconf-apt-progress --logstderr --dlwaypoint 100 --from 600 --to 700 -- apt-get -o APT::Get::List-Cleanup=false -o Dir::Etc::sourcelist=/tmp/fileSudW4Y update'
14:52<jhutchins_wk> nezZario: There is a #debian-installer channel, and #debian-boot also discusses installation.
14:52<sarnold>ullbeking: interesting. I'd hope that wouldn't fail the install though :(
14:52<ullbeking>i'll post to debian-boot
14:52<nezZario>Just basically understand the inner workings of debian installation/packages/repos - and determine if doing .. I guess it would be considered a 'fork' but fork seems a bit extreme. More like an apt mirror with some modifications. Still considered a fork, I guess. But you know what I mean, hopefully.
14:53<nezZario>But just trying to understand stuff first and then make a determination
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14:55<blast007>ullbeking: that message about #debian-boot was directed at someone else
14:55<ullbeking>blast007: yes, i figured
14:55<ullbeking>sarnold: asked me earlier about issues i've been having with installing debian to a ppc64el vps
14:55<ullbeking>and i'm having a hard time getting at the logs
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15:00<blast007>do you think it's something specific to ppc64 or specific to the VPS?
15:01<jhutchins_wk>nezZario: I think we'd call that a custom repository.
15:01<jhutchins_wk>nezZario: You're not distributing an altered version of Debian.
15:06<nezZario>But, what if I want to?! :)
15:06<jhutchins_wk>nezZario: There's info on the wiki about making your own mirror and/or custom repository.
15:07<nezZario>I really don't want to... but anyway, yeah. It seems like a pretty solid way given the amount of servers we have, and that most servers are such a short life cycle, it would be easier to just use a slightly modified base instead of massive ansible configs. Probably could cut down 50% of our ansible configs with a custom image and honestly _feels like_ we could get better reproducability and finer control
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15:12<jhutchins_wk>nezZario: You probably want to look at preseed and/or kickstart for building new machines with custom configuration.
15:13<jhutchins_wk>nezZario: You probably also want to look at a configuration manager like puppet, cheff, or ansible.
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15:26<user01>should dd be run as root? i dont see anyother way when doing a /deb/sdb write
15:27<user01>a /dev/sdb i mean
15:28<somiaj>user01: the person running dd has to be able to read and write to the files in question. So dd should be run by a user who can read/write to the actual files.
15:28<somiaj>In your examle, ls -l /dev/sdb -- you will see that it is owned by root in the groupd disk. So anyone in the group disk could also write to that device node via dd
15:28<somiaj>(also what are you using dd for, if to write an .iso to a usb drive, the install guide suggests cp)
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15:31<user01>somiaj, mine says either
15:32<somiaj>that is not the install guide
15:32<somiaj>but either way, I'm just pointing out that cp is suggested, and often has nicer syntax and better defaults than dd (they both work)
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15:33<user01>somiaj, i keep trying it and it isn't bootable with dd
15:34<somiaj>what image are you using and what is the exact command you are running?
15:34<user01>doing the live image
15:34<somiaj>which exact live image (there are more than one)
15:34<user01>dd if=isofile of=/dev/sdc bs=4M status=progress oflag=sync
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15:35<user01>or whatever device it assigns to the flash drive
15:35<somiaj>what exact image are you using?
15:36<user01>i thought maybe disk space was an issue so i tried a small one slax
15:36<somiaj>Everyting seems fine. I am surprised to see buster live images (I thought they ddin't make them until after the release), also unsure what DI-a1 means.
15:37<somiaj>Could be a bug in the live image, or an issue with the machine and booting (is secure boot disabled, are you useing legacy or efi boot)
15:37<user01>somiaj, this computer is legacy
15:37<somiaj>It should support both, but I haven't looked at the buster live images yet. I save that for after the release.
15:37*boud speculates wildly: DI = Debian Install?
15:38<somiaj>some older legacy machines will have troulbe booting from usb for various reasons
15:38<somiaj>boud: yea, probably debian installer - alpha 1
15:38<somiaj>so it is an alpha release, could just be a buggy image. Maybe try booting with a stretch offical debian installer image (not legacy).
15:39<somiaj>arg (not live)...i.e. use the offical installer image not the live image
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15:39<user01> will try the 1.9 GB one
15:39<user01>1.9 GB hopefully will fit on 2GB disk
15:40<user01>the xfce one
15:40<somiaj>I'd try an offical installer image, not live
15:40<somiaj>just get the netinstall image to test
15:40<user01>somiaj, im trying to recover data off my parents computer their hard drive is having i/o errors
15:40<user01>12 years old
15:42<user01>i did a backup for them a few months ago but was just going to see if there was anything recent to save off the computer
15:42<user01>so i need a live rescue disk to copy
15:43<somiaj>You can do a bit with the installer, but sure. My suggestion was to test why it wasn't booting, not to actually do anything.
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15:43<somiaj>If you can get the offical installer to boot, you know the issue is with the live image you were trying.
15:48<nezZario>user01: this has nothing to do with debian, but if you are trying to recover data from failing disks, check out spinrite, ... you really need to copy to a working disk (just need a disk of equal size, or bigger) and then you can use dd or whatever you want from the working disk. spinrite will do a copy and for failed or damaged areas it will do sampling to try to get the correct value of bits
15:49<nezZario>you're having problems because you're doing it wrong.
15:49<nezZario>dd/cp isn't meant to work on failing disks
15:50<jhutchins_wk>Might want to just mount the drive on a working system.
15:52<somiaj>In this case sounds like the old machine is having trouble booting a buster live image, so could be some other issues with the machine besides disks.
15:52<somiaj>You could pull the disk out and put it into another machine for data recovery
15:52<nezZario>why is s/he using buster, anyway?
15:53<somiaj>Don't know, hence my first suggestion was use stretch, though I would test with an installer image over live, but test the live first if wanted.
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16:05<user01>nezZario, yeah flash drive is fine -- the failing disk is on the computer
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16:10<nezZario>Hey one last question regarding apt repos.... So, are the words ... "stable", "main", "contrib", "non-free", etc in apt source lists seriously just 100% arbitrary?
16:13<user01>somiaj, i dont know as normal user cp: cannot create regular file '/dev/sdb': Permission denied I think i have to be root or add my user01 to root? or change permission of /dev/sdb
16:13<nezZario>user01: again, just use root? why are you making this hard on yourself?
16:13<nezZario>ls -lah /dev/sdb
16:14<user01>nezZario, i thought it was quite dangerous to run such a command as root
16:14<user01>im fine just doing it as root
16:15<somiaj>user01: as I said before the user needs to be able to write to the device. Root is the easiest, otherwise you need a user in the 'disk' group, or to change permisions of your device nodes (not suggested)
16:15<nezZario>mine is 0660, or brw-rw---, owned by 'root:disk', so only (a) root (b) users that are a member of the 'disk' group can read/write to the (b)lock device (why that b is there at the beginning)
16:16<nezZario>to be clear, it would be silly to add your user to the disk group just for one operation ... the only reason i would see someone doing that was if they had a script/daemon they wanted to run as non-root that worked heavily with the raw block devices
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16:18<nezZario>i mean, yes, it is 'dangerous', but got to think about root operations kinda like open heart surgery. It's dangerous but the alternative is just not to do it. if this is an installation, and not a live cd, i would suggest setting up sudo
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16:23<nezZario>user01: sudo is, on a single-user system anyway, made for exactly these things. I don't want to accidentally wipe my /dev/sdb device trying to play a game or browse the internet, so I use an unprivileged user 100% of the time that can't hurt anything outside of . when the time comes that I just *need* root, for an operation like that, I use sudo.
16:23<jhutchins_wk>user01: Yes, it's "dangerous". You will wipe out anything on the drive. Specify the wrong target and you could wipe out important things. Just be careful when doing things as root, and make sure you know what the thing you're doing is supposed to do.
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16:32<jhutchins_wk>user01: It really isn't any less dangerous to use sudo. Sudo is about restricting privileges to certain commands and logging who does what.
16:33<somiaj>(sudo also provides one the ability to give different users different levels of root access if on a system with multiple admins)
16:34<somiaj>but anyways, in general it is a good thing your primary user that is running most things cannot by default do dangerous things to your system.
16:35<user01>ok brb going to test if it boots now
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16:49<jimpop>is there a Debian RDP client that does file copy+paste to/from a remote Windows system?
16:52<jhutchins_wk>jimpop: You could put WSL on the box and run ssh on linux.
16:52<jhutchins_wk>jimpop: Or cygwyn, or a VM.
16:58<blast007>jimpop: see the '-r' option of rdesktop
16:58<blast007>it tended to be a bit unreliable the first time, at last with the version in stretch. IIRC, I had to copy something in the host and/or the remote system once before I could copy in the other direction.
16:59<blast007>-r clipboard: option, that is
16:59<jhutchins_wk>jimpop: Windows Services for Linux. Lets you install a sort of VM in W10.
16:59<jimpop>jhutchins_wk: thx
17:00<jimpop>blast007: thx as well
17:00<jhutchins_wk>jimpop: It gives you a fairly full Linux environment, but you can't access some things like DNS setting, networking in general.
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18:50<sqrt{not}>Actually, WSL := Windows Subsystem for Linux
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21:58<user01>hey so i got a used computer off of ebay and it has a 180 GB SSD 1 TB SATA hard drive . . . where should the swap go and what partitions would you put on the ssd and what on the hard drive?
21:59<user01>has 16 GB of ddr3 ram
21:59<user01>i was thinking to put swap on 1 TB
22:00<sarnold>put swap on the ssd
22:00<user01>the /usr definitely ssd
22:01<sarnold>I'd put everything on the ssd except for huge movies, maybe photos if you've got lots of those
22:01<user01>sarnold, so you would do a swap then on ssd?
22:02<blast007>I leave a portion of my SSDs (5 to 10%) unallocated
22:02<sarnold>user01: yeah; the ssd can handle hundreds or thousands of times more io operations per second, and dozens of times more bandwidth
22:02<sarnold>user01: so it makes for very good swap
22:02<user01>blast007, why may i ask?
22:02<blast007>that's supposed to let the flash controller do better wear leveling
22:03<sarnold>IFF you use something to issue a TRIM command to it, to let it know that space is unused
22:03<sarnold>(if it's a brand new drive when you do that, that amounts to the same thing :)
22:04<user01>sarnold, ok there was a time when they said swap wore down the ssds but i think i read something where that was basically untrue
22:04<sarnold>user01: yeah, I think the people who said that never really thought it through :)
22:05<sarnold>most ssds are sold with a lifetime of three to five years under the assumption of filling the drive N times every single day
22:05<user01>blast007, ok ill try that out then when partitioning
22:05<blast007>flash controllers are a lot better than they used to be
22:05<sarnold>if you're swapping that much, you need more ram, no doubt about it. the *actual* workload a computer runs is way more intensive than swap.
22:06<sarnold>most people never come close to wearing their drives out
22:07<user01>sarnold, i dont know, it seemed like a good refurbished deal . . . HP EliteDesk 800 G1 TWR Intel Core i7 4790 3.6GHz 16GB RAM 180 SSD + 1 TB HD for 200 USD
22:07<user01>hopefully its new
22:07<blast007>SMART might tell you how much data has been read/written to the disk or how many power-on-hours
22:08<sarnold>yeah, try smartctl on both drives
22:08<user01>ok ill take a look when i get it . . . im assuming they put in new drives if its refurbished but i guess you never know
22:09<blast007>I would doube it's new drives
22:09<user01>oh . . .then i wonder what they would have refurbished on it then
22:10<blast007>the computer itself. they cleaned it up, ran checks, installed an OS (maybe).
22:10<user01>blast007, i told them not to bother with an OS, im just going to wipe it anyway
22:11<sarnold>depends upon who refurb'd it
22:11<sarnold>I'd expect them to format the drives and put a new os on the ssd
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22:11<sarnold>but maybe they just formatted the disks
22:12<user01>wow i could have made more money called my used stuff refurbished then if that's all it is
22:12<blast007>there's a broad definition to that term :)
22:13<user01>ill email them and checl thanks
22:13<sarnold>quite possibly.. refurbished quite often means it was cast off from somewhere and then repaired back to working condition
22:14<user01>its weird ive been trying to back up the 12 year old hard drive and it starts to fail after a few minutes i/o errors
22:14<blast007>a new i7-4790 goes for $285
22:14<user01>but if i reboot it works again for another few minutes
22:15<blast007>hmm, and a refurbished one still costs $255
22:15<user01>for the processor alone?
22:15<user01>oh, so seems like a good deal then
22:15<user01>it doesnt say what generation
22:15<sarnold>user01: ddrescue or dd_rescue or something similar can retry IO to dead blocks, and move on if needed
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22:16<blast007>yeah it does. 4th generation core.
22:16<user01>oh you mean on the general spec page
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22:16<user01>i meant the ebay listing
22:17<blast007>you're talking about the processor generation?
22:17<user01>with shipping i guess it comes out to $230
22:18<blast007>yeah, 4th generation. that's what the 4 in the model number indicates (well, usually - intel gets creative with their numbering sometimes, especially on the enthusiast chips).
22:19<user01>i was trying to choose between that and one with 24GB of ram for about the same price but it was a xeon from 2010
22:19<blast007>their Haswell chips were the 4th generation, so the normal chips were the 4xxx numbering, but their high end chips were 5xxx even though they were still 4th generation :)
22:20<user01>xeon x5680
22:21<blast007>newer Xeons, at least, have an extra version number as they reuse the numbering
22:21<user01>it was a Dell Precision T7500 6-Core 3.33GHz X5680
22:22<blast007>assuming that HP EliteDesk 800 G1 is what it says it is, that's a good price. a refurbed system like that with the same chip but half the RAM and a smaller SSD is $300 on newegg
22:23<blast007>though that's the smaller form factor
22:23<sarnold>I think you made the right choice
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22:24<sarnold>the xeon might have come with ecc, which is nice, but .. it'd draw more power under full load and wouldn't go as fast for compute tasks
22:24<user01>yeah i wasnt sure since it will probably mostly be used as a file server
22:25<user01>and then throughout the day a desktop device id say
22:25<blast007>I use a Xeon w/ ECC RAM for my file server
22:25<user01>for myself a fileserver, for family a desktop
22:28<user01>i think the old one that broke ill put an ssd on and my 4 year old niece can play with it
22:29<user01>usb flash drive
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22:29<sarnold>careful those things don't last real long
22:29<sarnold>don't swap to those :D
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22:30<user01>oh i was just going to put like roms on it so she can play barbie games from the 90s
22:30<sarnold>oh okay :) they're probably fine for lots of reads.. I just wouldn't expect them to hold up to much writing
22:32<user01>probably more powerful than a pi anyway
22:37<sarnold>there's a lot of variables that go into determining how 'fast' a computer is .. processor vs memory vs memory bandwidth vs storage bandwidth vs storage latency vs network bandwidth vs network latency etc etc
22:38<sarnold>a pi with a good ssd might feel more responsive than an i7 with a hard drive, running the right applications.. or it might be the other way around, running different applications
22:38<user01>and i think they are pretty minimal on a raspberry pi
22:38<user01>oh this is like an old i3
22:38<user01>1st gen probably
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22:42<user01>hmmm is there a children's window manager for debian? i was hoping to get something simple for her
22:44<user01>oh there is debianjr too
22:44<mendelmunkis>yeah debianjr is probably better for what you want
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22:49<user01>hmm only one dude on the #debian-jr channel
22:51<blast007>there's also Sugar, but I haven't used that myself to know how it works. it was used for OLPC (One Laptop Per Child).
22:52<blast007>I guess I *have* used the Android variation of Sugar with an XO Tablet
23:01<user01>i have an old lcd monitor and a big cardboard box maybe i can turn it into a little movie theater for her . . . not sure if its safe though to have an outlet strip glued to the cardboard though
23:02<sarnold>hahaha sounds fun though :)
23:02<user01>yeah i can see her trying to stick a fork in it . . .
23:04<user01>should probably poke some ventilation holes in it too . ..
23:05<user01>wish i had an old touch screen actually . . .
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23:13<user01>i havent heard of sensor stuff like this for debian yet . . . would be cool then she could interact with her cardboard box
23:14<sarnold>neat :)
23:15<blast007>should be .html
23:15<user01>oh must have cut off
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