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#debian IRC Logs for 2019-09-25

---Logopened Wed Sep 25 00:00:29 2019
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00:33<laptop>I like debian but it is not rolling release any ideas for debian with rolling release
00:33<laptop>for 32 bit
00:37<laptop>is there a rolling release debian
00:38<paddy>laptop: maybe (!) have a look at siduction
00:38<paddy>not sure if it is still actively maintained
00:39<paddy>its not debian but a derivative
00:39<laptop>siduction is what I was thinking about
00:39<laptop>but it is not 32 bit
00:41<paddy>then i dont know
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00:46<aloo_shu>unstable is rolling, but then it's - unstable, now rolling here, tomorrow rolling there
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02:39<sapiens>hi there, I am beginner Debian user. Are your suggestion?
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02:42<dpkg>Before asking in here or on the <debian-user> mailing list, you should read the Installation Guide, or if you already have Debian installed, the Debian Reference. The Debian Administrator's Handbook is also good. Ask me about <ig>, <overview>, <reference>, <refcard>, <docs>, <manuals>, <fundamentals>, <newbiedoc>, <faq>, <unix lessons>, <general cli tutorial>, <debian-handbook> (e.g. in your IRC client, type /msg dpkg reference).
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02:45<jm_>that should keep you busy for a while
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04:20<vicky_>When I try to build libinput files from debian buster ( on debian stretch. I see the below error,
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04:21<vicky_>find debian/tmp -name '*.la' -delete
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04:21<vicky_>find: ‘debian/tmp’: No such file or directory
04:21<vicky_> Any idea what could be the issue? Thanks.
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04:29<ais-admin>hi vicky - buster is production and stable and very cool in all ways imaginable. Just upgrade to buster and eliminate the cross-pollination problem altogether?
04:29<jm_>vicky_: cd libinput-1.12.6
04:29<jm_>ahh it is there after the first failed command
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04:37<jm_>builds just fine for me, but there's a difference in output, i.e. I don't have dh_testdir in output, and then after dh_auto_configure -- ... line I have cd obj-x86_64-linux-gnu ...
04:38<vicky_>ais-admin: I have a requirement to just update libinput version.
04:39<jm_>which debian version are you building it on?
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04:40<vicky_>ais-admin: It build with
04:40<vicky_>ais-admin: Only with dpkg it fails
04:40<Pat1991>hi guys. I want to setup a Webserver on a Debian server. The VPS I got is barebone. What packages do I absolutely have to install for security?
04:41*vicky_ jm_: This error right? find: ‘debian/tmp’: No such file or directory
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04:44<jm_>vicky_: it builds fine for me on buster, what are you building it on?
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04:44<ais-admin>sorry vicky_ I dont think that will ever work on stretch
04:45<vicky_>ais-admin: okay.. thanks
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04:46<vicky_>jm_: I'm trying the same steps , dpkg-buildpackage -us -uc
04:46<avu>Pat1991: not a guy but generally you should just install as little as possible and take care to configure what you install properly
04:47<jm_>vicky_: might be it requires newer debhelper but doesn't specify it, just guessing
04:48<vicky_>jm_: okay, will check
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04:55<jm_>vicky_: your message did not reach me because I am +g
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04:57<jm_>also, I will be away for a little while
04:59<Pat1991>@avu so ufw and apache should be enough?
05:00<Pat1991>no fancy settings required? ;-)
05:01<annadane>debian comes with sane enough defaults that i don't tend to worry about "extra" security stuff
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05:01<annadane> /usr/share/doc/<package> may have more info i guess
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05:04<avu>Pat1991: you don't need ufw
05:04<annadane>apache though... i'm sure there are general usage FAQs
05:06<avu>Pat1991: just don't open ports you don't want open, much simpler and more robust than using some "firewall"
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05:08<ais-admin>a publicly facing webserver Pat1991? 1. Fail2ban 2. iptables rules which will geographically limit your audience by country (easily done using match sets) and avu is correct: Close all ports not used.
05:09<avu>ais-admin: that's quite the opposite of what I've been saying :)
05:09<avu>you "close" ports by just having nothing listen there, you don't need a firewall for that
05:10<avu>and why would you limit your audience by country (not that that's ever robustly possible)?
05:11<avu>and fail2ban is snakeoil, just configure your services properly and you don't need it
05:12<ais-admin>ok, whatever...
05:12<duclicsic>there is definitely some value in running a host based firewall, but there's no substitute for configuring your listening services properly so that nothing is publicly reachable that shouldn't be.
05:13<Pat1991>some idiot installed 3 BitTorrent clients on it, even after rebuild
05:13<Pat1991>either these hackers are damn fast or the "clean" ups is not so clean
05:13<ais-admin>ok well thats a serious local config problem that lets them do that
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05:14<avu>Pat1991: the "hackers" installing stuff on unsecure VPS are not people, they are programs. So yes, they are really fast, usually starting to hit seconds after a new machine appears on the net
05:14<avu>Pat1991: so if the machine comes up with ssh enabled and insecure passwords, that's that
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05:16<Pat1991>... I build the thing, it had no root password by default.
05:16<Pat1991>I setup a "secure" password from a password generator
05:17<Pat1991>Connected to the thing.
05:17<Pat1991>BitTorrent installed.
05:17<Pat1991>What else can I do, and why the hell install these apps? or is it pre-installed from the Debian build
05:18<ais-admin>avu is correct about that - its automated scanners that probe and get in if they can using any vulnerability they can. Where is your VPS?
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05:21<GyrosGeier>I think they set up something vulnerable by default, and some people have noticed that and scan for new machines on their network constantly
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05:22<GyrosGeier>so it's even faster than on the regular interwebs
05:22<ais-admin>sounds very plausible GyrosGeier
05:22<GyrosGeier>might want to talk to their admins
05:23<GyrosGeier>their reaction should tell you if you want to make further business with them
05:23<GyrosGeier>my firewall setup for actual real hardware is rather simple
05:24<GyrosGeier>-A INPUT -p tcp -m tcp --dport 22 -m state --state NEW -m recent --update --seconds 240 --hitcount 4 --name ssh-v4 --mask --rsource -j REJECT --reject-with tcp-reset
05:24<GyrosGeier>-A INPUT -p tcp -m tcp --dport 22 -m state --state NEW -m recent --set --name ssh-v4 --mask --rsource -j ACCEPT
05:24<GyrosGeier>same for IPv6
05:24<GyrosGeier>if you need more than that, you are running too much stuff
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05:25<duclicsic>if you try to use those iptables rules on a fresh buster install they won't work, they'll be ignored by the iptables-nft compatibility layer
05:26<duclicsic>you may have better luck with the hashlimit module which is superior to the recent module anyway
05:26<Pat1991>keep it short and simple for me please
05:27<Pat1991>ufw seems easy enough
05:27<avu>ufw also doesn't do anything useful
05:28<ais-admin>personally Pat1991 I would change services. The whole thing sound extrememly problematic. Try another low cost vps service. I bet you your problems will unappear
05:28<Pat1991>If I just install apache and configure ufw, am I safe?
05:28<ais-admin>no no no
05:28<GyrosGeier>it's a problem with the service
05:28<Pat1991>one sec
05:28<Pat1991>two part problem
05:28<GyrosGeier>also, security is not a product, but a process
05:28<Pat1991>1. ais-admin these server idiots do not know if the BitTorrent clients are part of the build they have
05:28<Pat1991>so maybe it isn't a hack
05:29<Pat1991>2. I want to keep it as simple as possible.
05:29<duclicsic>what are you seeing that is leading you to believe these hosts are being compromised?
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05:29<GyrosGeier>well, I wouldn't use a service I haven't installed myself
05:29<Pat1991>if I want BitTorrent I get a fucking seedbox
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05:30<GyrosGeier>if I want bittorrent I install it myself
05:30<Pat1991>whatever. no BitTorrent on this thing for me.
05:30<Pat1991>It seems they install server builds and don't know exactly what's in them
05:30<Pat1991>that's fucked up!!
05:30<GyrosGeier>I mean, I can see how it would make sense to preinstall bittorrent
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05:31<GyrosGeier>because that way all users that have bittorrent installed have the exact same version
05:31<GyrosGeier>saves a lot on disk space
05:31<GyrosGeier>and by "a lot", I mean megabytes!
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05:34<ais-admin>my impression of what Pat1991 said was that these (multiple) bt servers appeared magically AFTER spinning up his vps. Is that not the case?
05:34<Pat1991>just bought it. connected. got me a packet list.
05:35<Pat1991>and found this mess.
05:35<Pat1991>first they say "nothing is installed, you might have been hacked", then "it might come preinstalled"
05:35<Pat1991>They don't know what they install on my server?!
05:36<duclicsic>what exactly are you finding that you wouldn't want/expect?
05:36<duclicsic>just a bittorrent client?
05:36<duclicsic>because I don't see a problem with that
05:37<duclicsic>unless it's already running and downloading/seeding some torrent
05:37<GyrosGeier>well, if they don't know what is preinstalled, I do see a problem
05:37<ais-admin>my impression was that it was bt servers running?
05:37<duclicsic>I wouldn't expect the first person I talk to would be able to provide a full package list
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05:38<Pat1991>let me check
05:38<GyrosGeier>I would expect the first person I talk to would know who'd know who has a full package list
05:38<Pat1991>how do I know if they are running or just installed?
05:38<duclicsic>Pat1991: what is the package?
05:38<supaman>cheap = we make our money from preinstalling software from some other company and they pay us to do it?
05:39<Pat1991>duclicsic Pure SSD VPS Gen 2 they call it, running Debian "Debian 9.0 X64 Ssh Enabled"
05:40<Pat1991>according to their build list
05:40<GyrosGeier>cheap = we give everyone the exact same setup and a copy-on-write overlay so they all share the same installation
05:40<duclicsic>Pat1991: no, the bittorrent client you're supposedly finding
05:40<duclicsic>what is it called?
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05:40<GyrosGeier>which means that all the VPS are sharing the running binaries
05:40<duclicsic>how are you determining that it exists?
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05:41<Pat1991>ahhh. one sec. "ufw app list"
05:41<Pat1991>So maybe it was just ufw templates.
05:41<duclicsic>that doesn't tell you anything useful
05:41<GyrosGeier>so every VPS uses the same sshd binary, the kernel knows that it's the same binary, and they reuse memory pages
05:42<duclicsic>yes it's just listening predefined application types you can reference in a firewall rule
05:42<GyrosGeier>that way, their servers need less RAM for the number of VPS they run
05:42<GyrosGeier>that is what makes them cheap
05:42<duclicsic>so.. you're running "ufw app list" and thinking that's an actual list of applications on the host??
05:42<Pat1991>Now that you mention it...
05:43<Pat1991>Coming from shared hosting with cpanel you see *blush*
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05:43<Pat1991>ran pstree
05:43<Pat1991>all clean
05:44<Pat1991>*sigh* Loads to learn.
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06:38<user_>hello, is this where we can ask for help?
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06:39<jm_>leonzu: yes
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07:08<dpkg>hello, ach
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09:10<mendelmunkis>assuming I dont have NetworkManager installed why would setting my dns server in wicd not have an effect on where things do there dns lookup?
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09:13<ach>question is whoch resolver you have and which is set inwicd?
09:13<ach>but i am wrong person for that
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09:14<mendelmunkis>I haven't found any setting in wicd to set resolver.
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09:15<GyrosGeier>wicd would probably update /etc/resolv.conf
09:16<dpkg>/etc/resolv.conf is a resolver configuration file that contains your nameserver IPs. It is written by your DHCP client. To use different nameservers than those provided by DHCP, ask me about <override dns>. See also <fixresolvconf>.
09:16<Gabriel_7>mendelmunkis: because somehow the different components might not agree (dnsmasq, openresolve, resolvonf, systemd-resolv)
09:16<GyrosGeier>which systemd now hardwires to some localhost address
09:16<Gabriel_7>Each of these can interact somehow to configure name resolution ... maybe some combination is broken.
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09:17<mendelmunkis>thanks. (I just usually dont hand edit file that say in all caps WILL BE OVERWRITTEN.)
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09:18<Gabriel_7>yes you should not
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09:37<mendelmunkis>wicd seems to add the router as the primary dns server despite never bieng told to.
09:43<themill>the dhcp server is instructing it to do
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09:49<mendelmunkis>The data in resolv.conv matches the settings i put in wicd (besides the leading router) and dhclient is set with completly different servers.
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10:11<_kab>Somebody familiar with udev? I ran into a situation where it appears to be losing information about a device until I reboot. Specifically the /dev/disk/by-id symlink is missing.
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10:19<Zed>Good morning - I just got the point release - Do I need to reboot to finish the install?
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10:24<_kab>Zed: Doesn't hurt, especially for kernel upgrades, but strictly speaking you don't need to.
10:24<Zed>got it
10:24<_kab>You might want to restart service though
10:25<Zed>last reboot was 234 days ago anyway - guess it is time :)
10:25<_kab>Yeah. There is a rather cool package called needrestart that can also assist in decisions like that.
10:27<Zed>that'll be nice to add into my update script :)
10:28<Zed>nice tip! thanks _kab
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10:30<Zed>and since I's sure everyone is wondering I need a restart ;)
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10:42<trebmuh>hi all
10:42<trebmuh>I'm trying to subscribe to a bunch of different mailing lists
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10:43<trebmuh>but I hit the "You can't use this script to subscribe more than 30 times in this short time period."
10:43<trebmuh>it doesn't tell me how long I need to wait
10:43<trebmuh>any idea?
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10:44<bremner>uh. You want to subscribe to more than 30 debian mailing lists?
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11:30<laptop>I need a 32 bit rolling release distro
11:31<laptop>debian preferred
11:31<laptop>I heard about debian unstable
11:33<somiaj>debian does not provide a rolling release distro
11:34<somiaj>debian provides its development version that users can use, and is constantally changing. But I wouldn't call it a release, it often has bugs, and one needs to be somewhat familar with debian to use it effectivally
11:34<somiaj>I would personally start with testing over unstabale, as the starting point if you want to go that route. You should ask questions in #debian-next, and go read the wiki on the testing FAQ
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11:43<bremner>also, I'd recommend 64 bits for almost all hardware less than 10 years old
11:45<laptop>I have a 64 bit processor but it uses 30% more memory, I just want to add it to my throw away computer I want a rolling release similar to manjaro which is 64 bit and their 32 bit is not well supported, debian out of all of the distros is the only one that continues really to support 32 bit, ubuntu got rid of 32 bit and gentoo has 32 bit but it takes forever to compile packages, void is hard to use with little support
11:45<dpkg>ach: ^5
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11:56<GyrosGeier>laptop, there is also the x32 ABI
11:57<GyrosGeier>which uses 64 bit mode, but 32 bit pointers
11:57<GyrosGeier>so you get the best of both worlds
11:57<laptop>for which distor
11:57<GyrosGeier>that is a multiarch target
11:57<sarnold>I don't think anyone actually uses that
11:57<GyrosGeier>so you can compile individual programs with that
11:58<GyrosGeier>I'd use 64 bit for everything but the most resource-hungry apps
11:59<GyrosGeier>because for most apps it doesn't make a difference -- memory requirements are rounded up to the nearest page size at least, and are usually way less granular than that
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11:59<GyrosGeier>so compiling everything as x32 makes little sense
12:00<GyrosGeier>the POWER people had the opposite approach for some time, everything is 32 bit but those programs that need the address space
12:01<GyrosGeier>but POWER is special in that the 32 and 64 bit instruction sets are largely identical, while x86 saves a lot through additional instructions only available in 64 bit mode
12:01<GyrosGeier>especially the instruction-pointer relative addressing modes make a big difference
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13:17<qwebirc69252>hey all, I am having an issue with Jessie systemd. I want to install a service script. It is enabled, but stays Active: inactive (dead). I can start it manually, but it doesnt not start at boot. Any ideas where i should look?
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13:21<sarnold>qwebirc69252: does anything Want your new unit file?
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13:26<qwebirc69252>the link is also present in /etc/systemd/system/mutli etc
13:28<sarnold>qwebirc69252: hmm... maybe, systemd-analyze verify on the unit file? I'm not sure where to go next if it isn't a missing Wants .. :)
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13:32<qwebirc69252>well systemd-analyze just shows my problem. my service not being present until i manually start it
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13:32<qwebirc69252>any ideas how i can debug systemd in more details
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15:07<wannabe-mirror>what do we know of microfilm reading devices? do you know of any that work in linux?
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15:14<laptop>is there a channel on this network for archlinux 32 bit
15:14<laptop>and debian next?
15:15<mendelmunkis>don't know about arch sorry.
15:16<sney>laptop: archlinux has a channel on freenode
15:18<sney>wannabe-mirror: if it speaks SANE it'll work
15:22<laptop>will debian 32 bit be dead soon
15:22<sney>doubt it
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15:26<laptop>I asked this earlier and they recommended debian unstable for rolling release
15:26<laptop>but I forgot the channel name
15:26<sney>debian doesn't drop support for architectures unless they're truly obsolete and unused. i386 will stick around for years to come I'm sure. might even be kept forever since it was the original one
15:27<sney>#debian-next is the channel for sid/testing support
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15:28<sney>sid is the closest thing debian has to a "rolling release" though it's not really intended for use as a main system and can be unusably broken several times a year
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15:33<somiaj>laptop: I think I said debian test/sid are the development versions of debian, that are constantally changing, it is not a rolling release.
15:33<somiaj>as in they are never released, but debian provides access to its development version
15:35<laptop>I see there is no rolling release debian only arch and gentoo I believe
15:36<somiaj>but debian testing or sid can work in a similar fashion
15:37<somiaj>Just less care (espically in debian sid) is taken to ensure things don't break on upgrades.
15:37<somiaj>Debian testing is far more relaiable on that front
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15:38<somiaj>laptop: I ran sid for about 15 years until I got tired of things always changing and breaking, and am happy just using the stable release with older software in my old age
15:38<somiaj>I did learn a lot about debian as a side affect though
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15:41<laptop>I do not know why I like older computers and trying to run newer software on them, I can afford the new stuff easily I use an i5 laptop which is the min entry nowadays 1st gen is too old but I somehow want to revert back to core2duo and run linux and for reason think I can make things run faster when they cannot
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15:41<sney>debian is generally good for that, yes.
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16:06<rob_debian>Hi all, I'm facing the following error in a debian installation I use for tests here. I was receiving this message when I used to run the command sudo /etc/init.d/bluetooth status -l
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16:07<rob_debian>I just used 'systemctl start bluetooth' and now bluetooth is working fine. Please, Is there any specific configuration I have to perform to be sure it is ok and it was only
16:07<rob_debian>a question of using 'systemctl start bluetooth' ?
16:08<rob_debian>For, when I check status, it's displaying the same error message.
16:08<somiaj>hmm, does not have ssl enabled, (https:// isn't working for me, but http:// does)
16:09<rob_debian>Fine somiaj, hope you can see my message, if that's the case you're trying to do it now :)
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16:11<somiaj>I'm not seeing anything in what you pasted, I tried to look up the error I saw, but got it was mostly a warning.
16:11<judd>Bug in bluez (open): «bluetooth.service: sap-server: Operation not permitted (1)»; severity: normal; opened: 2015-10-28; last modified: 2017-02-10.
16:11<somiaj>anyways, you say it works after you start (or restart) bluetooth, it just didn't work right after boot (or during the installer)?
16:11<rob_debian>Oh God !
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16:14<rob_debian>Well, somiaj, sorry. when I ran 'systemctl start bluetooth' it ran again fine. But status is displaying the same error message.
16:15<rob_debian>It wasn't so clear for me when you asked if it didn't work after boot, or during the installer...
16:16<somiaj>rob_debian: if bluetooth is working, I would ignore all the warnings you see (the bug report says you get some)
16:16<somiaj>If bluetooth only works after you 'systemctl start bluetooth' but not at boot, this is something we could try to debug.
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16:17<rob_debian>Fine, now I understood your explanation, somiaj. Please, how to debug the system in this case ?
16:18<somiaj>If it isn't starting at boot, you have to look at the actual unit file, see when it is being started (it could be that is starting before the bluetooth device is ready)
16:19<rob_debian>There is these messages also. Please somiaj, see if you can access this new one now:
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16:20<somiaj>but my knowledge here is very limited, I can't say what to do. But sounds like to me a race issue, that the service is running too soon in the boot process
16:20<somiaj>rob_debian: reboot your machine. If bluetooth isn't working, get and paste the output of 'systemctl status bluetooth', lets see the state of the service at boot.
16:21<rob_debian>Fine, somiaj, thank you very much for great support ! I'll do it in some minutes. Unfortunately I can't do it immediately. I'll report you as soon as possible. Really thank you !
16:22<somiaj>take your time
16:22<somiaj>I do have to leave soon, but I'm sure others can hep.
16:23<rob_debian>I see, somiaj, if it is not possible in few minutes, thank you very much for attention and Great Support. See you !:)
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16:38<sqrt{not}>somiaj: the first paste works for me
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16:39<somiaj>sqrt{not}: yea, something is strange on my network, https:// isn't working but http:// is, I think my university firewall is not liking something
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16:39<sqrt{not}>rob_debian: are you mixing init.d and systemd here ?
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16:40<somiaj>sqrt{not}: on debian the init.d scripts should make calls to systemctl, which is what it looks like to me
16:41<somiaj>but agreed, as I suggested us 'systemctl status -l bluetooth' instead
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16:42<rob_debian>Hi sqrt{not}, I was just monitoring a server that is displaying this error message. Please, is there anything related to init.d and systemd ?
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16:42<rob_debian>Please, sqrt{not}, explain me exactly what you mean
16:43<rob_debian>mixing init.d with systemd... ?
16:43<t-ware>i'm loog 4 help
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16:44<sqrt{not}>rob_debian: maybe it's OK, like somiaj said, but I saw you running /etc/init.d/bluetooth status -l against a systemd bluetooth.
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16:45<rob_debian>this part is not clear: against a systemd blueetooth...
16:45<sqrt{not}>rob_debian: your first paste has this line: Loaded: loaded (/lib/systemd/system/bluetooth.service; enabled; vendor preset: enabled)
16:46<rob_debian>ok, and then ?
16:46<somiaj>rob_debian: your system is using systemd, so you should be using systemctl, but instead you used the old sysv init.d script /etc/init.d/bluetooth
16:46<somiaj>debian does a good job ensure backwards compadability, but you should have ran 'systemctl status bluetooth', not the command you did
16:48<sqrt{not}>therefore I am wondering what command started this bluetooth ? something you typed, or something in the system startup ??
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16:49<rob_debian>something it was typed, sqrt{not}, if you refer to 'systemctl start bluetooth'
16:52<rob_debian>I see, somiaj, reading and understandig your explanation...
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16:54<sqrt{not}>rob_debian: I see your bluetooth paired with something that looks like a phone, stayed paired for 8 minutes, then unpaired. what is the problem here ?
16:55<rob_debian>I don't know sqrt{not}
16:56<sqrt{not}>are you just wondering how to make this bluetooth start itself automatically when you boot the machine ?
16:57<rob_debian>yes, basically that's it. Error messages impressed me too. But I think it's happened because I used the wrong procedure, as you and somiaj explained to me above
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17:04<sqrt{not}>you may just need to run the command: systemctl --system enable bluetooth
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17:05<sqrt{not}>then you *should* be OK after the machine boots in the future (although I am **FAR** from any expert on systemd.....)
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17:16<jlgaddis>Is it still not possible to load "self-signed" (w/ an MOK) kernel modules (DKMS) into a running kernel (unstable) w/ UEFI+Secure Boot enabled?
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17:26<rob_debian>somiaj and sqrt{not}, thank you very much for Great Support :) Issues fixed here !
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17:29<aasadasedmotherf>eai galera
17:29<aasadasedmotherf>tudo bem
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17:29<dpkg>Este canal é apenas em inglês. Por favor, use #debian-br (/j #debian-br) para ajuda em portugues.
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18:09<trebmuh>bremner, (sorry for the lag) yes
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18:16<xeno_>can any body help me ?
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18:17<annadane>what will they do now? never get help?
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18:28<whislock>I mean, we DID blow our SLA pretty badly...
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18:31<sarnold>29s :(
18:31*sarnold hangs his head in shame
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20:41<tripkin>Hello everyone. I used to use pyrenamer in jessie and stretch, but it is not available in buster. How do I install it from the Stretch repo, or is this not recommended for some reason?
20:42<tripkin>In other words, can I install it using apt, or do I download it from the repo and install using dpkg...?
20:43<judd>Bug in src:pyrenamer (closed, buster, sid): «pyrenamer: depends on python-gnome2 which deprecated»; severity: serious; opened: 2016-11-27; last modified: 2018-04-23.
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20:44<tripkin>blast007: Aha! Thanks for that.a Guess it is up to the dev(s), then.
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22:04<rob_debian_>Hi all, Please Would it be any problem for me to deal with legacy packages if I use a DEV server using Debian?
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22:09<annadane>rob_debian_, hard to tell for certain without knowing what you want but part of the niceness of debian is you don't have to use its packages, you can get up to date software in other ways
22:09<rob_debian_>Hi annadane, thanks for answering me !:)
22:11<rob_debian_>Please, annadane, you say I don't have to use legacy packages; fine, I understood. But, I can get up to date software in other ways....
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22:12<annadane>i guess a good general rule of thumb is use the debian stable packages; if you run into problems (ie a feature you need that debian doesn't have) then use debian backports or something else
22:12<annadane>'dev server' is also a bit of a weird term
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22:12<dpkg>A backport is a package from a newer Debian branch, compiled from source for an older branch to avoid dependency and <ABI> complications. (2.7.4 and 2.7.10), . Ask me about <debian-backports> and <backport caveat>. See also <simple sid backport>.
22:13<dpkg> (formerly is an official repository of <backports> for the current stable (see <buster backports>) and oldstable (<stretch backports>) distributions, prepared by Debian developers. Ask me about <backport caveat> and read See also <bdo kernel> <bdo mirrors> <bdo contents> <bdo list> <bdo bugs> <bdo xorg> <bdo NEW>.
22:15<annadane>what i mean by weird term is you can have a "development machine", for say programming, for which programmers may want newer packages... or you can have on the other hand a *server* which is static most of the time and people won't really need up to date stuff
22:15<annadane>so "dev server" is in my view a bit ambiguous
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22:23<rob_debian_>yeah, annadane, so according debian point of view, "dev server" should be ambigous - because, in some cases, developers may want to develop new software that it's not available in debian, but not through debian packaging process....
22:23<annadane>it's better to just describe what you want to do specifically
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22:26<annadane>i know i've quite often thought to myself "i need new software because blah blah blah" and it turns out not being true
22:26<rob_debian_>yes, annadane, sorry, I'm bit tired, that's why I tried to explain you my doubt, but got a bit confusion explanation...
22:27<annadane>stability is definitely underrated
22:30<rob_debian_>Ok, let me explain you better: I'm following a discussion about which Linux Distro should be considered better for Development (in this case, to develop new features to network - network programming). A guy told that Fedora is more specific for that rather than Debian, cause Debian is focused in Production Servers thanks to its stability
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22:30<annadane>i'm sure someone else can answer you better than i can, i'm not familiar with networking
22:31<laptop> hi is this graphics driver supported in debian 10 ati radeon x1300
22:31<rob_debian_>And I thought if this insight makes sense. Now I think about your passage:
22:31<annadane>laptop, try not to cross-post
22:32<rob_debian_>"i need new software because blah blah blah" and it turns out not being true.... thinking about this passage you've mentioned....
22:33<annadane>debian works really well when you ask a specific problem you're trying to solve; then the community can give you answers
22:33<annadane>start with the problem, *then* find a package for it
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22:40<awal1>rob_debian_, Fedora have much less pkgs than debian and it's community is smaller . fedora is like a laboratory for redhat. debian have over 100 developers/maintainers, fedora for sure a few dozens only, maybe just a few ones. annadane is refefring to stable releases vs testing/rolling like arch / fedora (debian sid is almost the equivalent and also testing is relatively "rolling") i think that develloping stuff will be more
22:40<awal1>supported under debian.
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22:40<rob_debian_>That's true, you are right, annadane :)
22:40<annadane>over 1000* but yeah
22:41<awal1>you also have experimental debian repo. my idea is: all depends on your skills
22:41<awal1>yeah, overs 1000
22:41<awal1>not over 100. i missed the 3d 0 ;)
22:41<annadane>AFAICT fedora is a serious, good distribution
22:42<annadane>i'm just more familiar with debian
22:42<rob_debian_>That's what I needed to get clearer in my mind: this explanation annadane and awal1 provided me here. They fix my doubt here.
22:42<awal1>serious sure, but very buggy
22:43<awal1>rob, when you get better what is debian stable vs testing vs unstable you will have more clearer idea about your own question
22:45<awal1>debian policies are very strict so is as follow: upstream (or debian main pkgs) ---> experimental and / or unstable ---> testing ---> stable
22:45<awal1>fedora is : upstrram ---> fedora (---> redhat)
22:46<awal1>debian have around 50000 pkgs, fedora around 2000 if not wrong (or around 1000 )
22:46<awal1>i think around 2000 only
22:47<laptop>may i ask a question
22:48<awal1>pkgs quantity is: debian first followed by gentoo. gentoo have around 40000 i think
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22:48<awal1>40000 or 20000. well, i forgot how much exactly
22:50<awal1>rob_debian_, just by statistics you can guess where devs are going to learn, test stuff and get experience and "popularity" (popularity for there cv...)
22:50<annadane>laptop, yes
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22:51<rob_debian_>awal1, in this case, the answer is: debian, right ? Where devs are going to learn, test and stuff ....
22:51<awal1>well, if you work as developer for debian is not the same if you have worked for, say, lubuntu when you put that in your cv :P
22:52<rob_debian_>Fine, awal1, I really ought to learn more deeply about this difference: debian stable vs testing vs unstable
22:52<awal1>well, my opinion is: debian 1000+ developers vs fedora less than 100 for sure. so ....
22:52<rob_debian_>and it will fix some doubts related to the question I showed to annadane
22:53<rob_debian_>so... ?
22:53<awal1>check debian devs channel for more info
22:53<awal1>dpkg: dd
22:53<dpkg>methinks dd is an abbreviation for Debian Developer, or a utility for the low-level copying and conversion of raw data: man dd, dd if=/foo/vmlinuz of=/dev/fd0 to produce a bootable floppy, dd if=/dev/hdc of=image.iso to make an image of a CD/DVD. See also <win32 dd>, <ddrescue>, <gddrescue>. <pv>
22:53<awal1>dpkg: debian developer
22:53<dpkg>awal1: wish i knew
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22:54<awal1>i think it is debian-devels the channel. search for it
22:55<awal1>yes #debian-devel
22:55<laptop>I want to create my own distro of debian called debian megatron is this allowed
22:55<rob_debian_>Thank you very much for your attention and precise information that you provided, annadane and awal1. I will be back to this dialogue to reflect more about these questions and get more understanding about them. Really thank you for your patience and really Great Support !:)
22:55<annadane>you don't have to thank us every single time rob but you're welcome :P
22:55<annadane>laptop, yes it's 'allowed'
22:56<annadane>debian is free software so of course it is
22:56<laptop>cool I want to use transformers characters instead of toy story
22:56<somiaj>of course such a thing is not supported here. There are lots of based off of debian distro's you can look at to see what they have done.
22:56<awal1>laptop, why your "own distro"?
22:57<awal1>why you don't just help debian and collaborate on it?
22:57<annadane>rob_debian_, the only thing is, 1) if you use backports and want to revert to the stable packages, it's not necessarily supported (depends on the package) because debian doesn't really support downgrades 2) backports are only for debian stable, as we've discussed before 3) don't mix testing/unstable packages with stable
22:58<annadane>in fact don't use testing/unstable in general until you're more familiar with debian
22:58<laptop>I thought about it but I like the idea of my own distro. I also want to name it debian megatron. I am not sure if that is trademarked as it is a transformer character
22:58<laptop>maybe megatrune (with u being an umlaut) something that is not copyrighted
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22:59<rob_debian_>I see annadane, and that's not my case, for I wouldn't do such thing (downgrading from backports to stable branches)
22:59<annadane>i can't imagine there would be legal issues
23:00<dpkg>Welcome to Debian! Here's some resources to help you on your merry way: The Debian Handbook: Reference manual: FAQ: - reading is also a very good idea.
23:00<annadane>rob_debian_, have you looked at some of that? ^ it may help you
23:00<annadane>the handbook still says "debian 8" for some reason but most of it still applies
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23:02<rob_debian_>I've been looking for some issues, not exactly for these I introduced today, annadane. Oh, I remember when you've mentioned about 8, when we are in 10.1 already.
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23:03<annadane>if it still says debian 8 by the time debian 11 arrives i'm going to complain :P
23:03<annadane>most of it should be ok, they just need to get rid of alioth references
23:03<rob_debian_>I'll be back here to read your explanations, really thank you very much annadane and awal1
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23:04<mendelmunkis>How bad of an idea is to to try locally rebuilding X for a 2:1.20.5 feature?
23:05<rob_debian_>Oh annadane, it wasn't a just to clarify, if my comment was considered ambiguous: it was not a criticism of what You said at all! In fact, I liked and agree with your point of view on updating this manual, certainly!
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23:06<rob_debian_>Please, annadane, Debian Reference is updated enough for 10.1 ?
23:06<annadane>yeah, debian reference is much more updated as far as i know
23:06<somiaj>laptop: I don't think i've seen any based on debian distros with 'debian' in their name, due to branding issues.
23:06<annadane>it's hard to tell, there's a lot of sections
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23:07<somiaj>mendelmunkis: Do you just have to recompile the package with a different configuration?
23:07<annadane>i wish we had something on par with FreeBSD's documentation... oh well
23:07<twb>Help me enable sftp in tinysshd
23:07<mendelmunkis>I just want a few post 1.20.4 commits.
23:07<somiaj>!package recompile
23:07<dpkg>1) Add a <deb-src> line for your current release to your sources.list 2) apt update; apt install build-essential devscripts fakeroot; apt build-dep packagename 3) as any user, apt-get source packagename 4) cd packagename-version/; ask me about <debian/rules>; 5) dpkg-buildpackage -uc -us 6) as root, apt install ../packagename-version.deb. Ask me about <debian/rules>, <nocheck>, <nostrip>, <apt-get source>.
23:08<twb>This works: /usr/sbin/tinysshd-makekey delete-me && /usr/sbin/tinysshd -v -x sftp=/usr/lib/openssh/sftp-server -- delete-me
23:08<somiaj>mendelmunkis: might take a bit more work to add in additional patches (depending on what they are and how they inteagrate with all the debian patches)
23:08<twb>But in /etc/default/tinysshd, changing TINYSSHDOPTS="-v" to TINYSSHDOPTS="-v -x sftp=/usr/lib/openssh/sftp-server" does NOT work:
23:08<somiaj>mendelmunkis: but it most likley just uses quilt and should be easy to apply a few packages to and rebuild.
23:08<annadane>every time i try using freebsd i get confused, which is probably my own stupid fault
23:08<twb>Sep 26 13:07:06 goll tinysshd[8168]: usage: tinysshd [options] keydir
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23:08<mendelmunkis>I'm more worried about how easy X is to break.
23:09<mendelmunkis>Well I guess worse case scenario I just revert.
23:09<somiaj>mendelmunkis: not sure there, but provided the patches aren't that game changing it isn't hard to just rebuild a debian source package
23:09<somiaj>but a lot is going to depend on the patches you apply
23:11<rob_debian_>I see annadane. So, Debian Reference is not as complete as FreeBSD Handbook ? Sure, Debian Reference for Debian and FreeBSD Handbook for FreeBSD....
23:11<annadane>the debian reference is actually pretty good. i don't know exactly how it compares
23:11<annadane>the BSDs in general are just known for better documentation
23:12<rob_debian_>Well, there is Debian wiki too...
23:13<rob_debian_>People always refer to Arch Wiki. But Debian Wiki seems to be very comprehensive too. Well, my analysis belong to a newbie yet....
23:13<rob_debian_>But, Server World prefer Debian instead of any BSD, surely.
23:14<annadane>nah, servers run either one
23:14<annadane>sorry, does anyone else have actual support questions? i don't want to take this offtopic
23:15<mendelmunkis>1.0 source. Wonderful.
23:15<annadane>twb does. i apologize about that
23:15<rob_debian_>oh, we've been offtopic for some time, sorry.
23:15*twb waves
23:16<twb>If someone can at least reproduce my problem, that'd be grand
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23:16<twb>Otherwise I'm about to just give up and say "too bad, no SFTP, you'll have to use rsync"
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23:16<umesh>hello frind
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23:25<somiaj>twb: that seems strange, doesn't rsync use sftp over ssh? Or would you also run an rsync server?
23:26<twb>somiaj: uh... not even close
23:26<somiaj>oh wait, I'm confusing scp with sftp
23:26<twb>somiaj: when you do "rsync", it basically runs "ssh rsync --daemon porn.jpg"
23:27<somiaj>ahh, so rsync over ssh laucnhes its own server than copies over that, for some reason I thought it was using scp/sftp protocol
23:27<twb>somiaj: sftp completely replaces the insecure scp
23:27<twb>sftp isn't "built on top of" scp
23:28<twb>(BTW, note that you can run rsync directly over the wire, no ssh. e.g. does this, instead of public anon FTP)
23:28<somiaj>yea, I do know you can run rsync server and not need ssh, I was just confused on how rsync was working over ssh.
23:29<twb>e.g. try "rsync"
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---Logclosed Thu Sep 26 00:00:30 2019