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#debian IRC Logs for 2019-09-27

---Logopened Fri Sep 27 00:00:32 2019
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01:31<diarylide>are there irc channels for people struggling with depression?
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01:34<annadane>diarylide, not that i'm immediately familiar with. you might try searching the internet for that kind of thing - and i hope you feel better
01:35<annadane>#oftc may be able to help
01:35<diarylide>have heard of blue hackers. just thought i'd reach out here in chance that perhaps there are some hidden channels that aren't obvious upon first listing/searches
01:36<annadane>it's possible. i'm not quite at that level yet
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02:47<twb>Who do I whinge to that Priority: standard includes python2 and bzip2, but not python3 or zstd or lz4?
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06:57<cryogen>I'm trying to build an installer with a custom kernel, I don't know how to get .udebs from my kernel .deb, is there a good guide on this anywhere?
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07:09<Mikaela>Hi, why would all apt commands take a very long time doing especially "Building depedency tree" ? This is Debian 10 VPS on i386 system, I am not sure on the virtualization type, but think it's KVM. This didn't happen on 9
07:12<jm_>cryogen: hmm mentiones kernel udebs, have you tried that?
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07:15<cryogen>jm_: That's the guide I'm currently going off - it isn't very clear on how to get the udebs. I followed the kernel building guide to get the .debs
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07:16<jm_>cryogen: but it does say you get them as a result of using linux-2.6 source, that's what I am asking, have you tried that? also, maybe #debian-boot can help
07:16<cryogen>jm_: Yeah, I was just about to follow up that it does say it needs to be the linux-2.6 source, which I'm not doing
07:17<cryogen>long story short, I'm trying to install on a machine that needs the very latest kernel to recognise the disk controller
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07:19<jm_>just out of curiosity - what hardware is so special?
07:19<cryogen>the latest macs with the T2 security chip
07:20<cryogen>the ssd controller does non standard things, for which the workaround was recenty commited to the kernel tree (august or so)
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08:30<wannabe-mirror>what performance do you observe when transfering files between your debian computers and android-smartphones?
08:30<wannabe-mirror>what's the file transfer rate in your cases?
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10:50<rob_debian>Hi all, please, is VI (not VIM) available for Debian ? I Knew it wasn't available before, don't know currently.
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10:55<RattusRattus>Usually, on Debian, /usr/bin/vi is a symlink to vim or vim-tiny
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10:58<jhutchins_wk>RattusRattus: Actually, it's a link to /etc/alternatives/vi
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10:58<RattusRattus>jhutchins_wk: ack ta!
11:01<RattusRattus>but as rob_debian is wanting vi not vim by default vi -> /usr/bin/vim.tiny
11:01<rob_debian>Hi RAttusRattus, thanks for answering !
11:02<rob_debian>Yes, RattusRattus, I know 'vi' is a symlink to 'vim' in the case of calling it through 'vi' in command line, when you are using any Linux.
11:03<rob_debian>My doubt is: why it's not used for Linux, despite the fact I think Vim is better - improved.
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11:04<jhutchins_wk>rob_debian: Why what is not used?
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11:05<RattusRattus>rob_debian: can you re-phrase your last? I don't understand what you are saying
11:06<rob_debian>Hi jhutchins_wk, nice to see you :) Well, sorry, my explanation is a bit confusing: I meant: VIM is used in Linux, if you want to use it, type 'VI' and you are going to access VIM, not the classical VI in Linux environment :)
11:07<rob_debian>Sorry RattusRattus, my explanation was horrible and confusing :)
11:08<RattusRattus>ok - so Now I go back to your fist question and ask what was it you wer asking :-)
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11:26<Celelibi>What is the debian way to compile an in-tree kernel module?
11:26<Celelibi>I wiuld like to compile ee1004.
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11:34<sqrt{not}>!module assistant
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11:34<dpkg>module-assistant is a tool helping to build additional (kernel) module packages - from Debian module source packages - and install them. "aptitude install module-assistant". See usage examples at . Log files from successful (and unsuccessful!) builds can be found in /var/cache/modass/
11:35<TobiX>Is module-assistant still a thing? Every module I wanted to build in the last years had -dkms packages...
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11:52<Celelibi>Does module-assistant work for in-tree modules?
11:53<Celelibi>I don't know if module-assistant work. Subcommands list and list-installed keep telling me to run update, even though I already have.
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12:01<Celelibi>How do I even get the source that was used to compile the packaged kernel?
12:01<Celelibi>Because that's where the driver is.
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12:10<dpkg>As an overview: to work with Debian source packages, add a <deb-src> line to your sources list; cd to a location with free space; download the source package with <apt-get source>; retrieve dependencies with <apt-get build-dep>; edit <debian/rules> to taste; use <dpkg-buildpackage> to build the new .deb. For more details, also ask me about <package recompile> <backport> <nmg> <policy> <source package>
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12:21<rob_debian>Please, a person who I know complained that someone told him that using debian .iso non-free means damaging Debian in soon future. I use it and still haven't had any issue in my Debian. Is that correct this point of view ? firmware non-free .iso shouldn't be recommended for Debian users ?
12:21<codingquark>Hello! I have `wpa_supplicant@wlp3s0.service` running. The interface is connecting to network as well. I want to know how to interact with the interface now from CLI. For example, how to know which network SSID it is connected to?
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12:22<jhutchins_wk1>rob_debian: Don't worry about it. There's nothing inherently unstable about it.
12:23<jhutchins_wk1>codingquark: iwconfig <interface> should show you that.
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12:23<jhutchins_wk1>If you're using network manager, there is nmcli to manage it.
12:23<codingquark>I tried /sbin/wpa_cli, which reports disconnection upon `status` request
12:24<codingquark>jhutchins_wk1: thanks, /sbin/iwconfig does it for me.
12:24<codingquark>jhutchins_wk1: and what should I be using if I want to switch to a different network?
12:25<codingquark>(Perhaps I should not have mentioned you on that last one, sorry in that case)
12:25-!-jhutchins_wk1 is now known as jhutchins_wk
12:25<jhutchins_wk>I'm not familiar with the wpa utilities, again you might check out nm-cli
12:26<jhutchins_wk>codingquark: I only use wifi on laptops that have GUIs, and NM is specifically intended for network roaming.
12:26<jhutchins_wk>!network manager
12:26<dpkg>NetworkManager is a network management framework daemon. See /usr/share/doc/network-manager/README.Debian for setup instructions and ask me about <nm unmanaged>. #nm on See also <nmcli>, <wireless connection managers>. nmtui for ncurses interface
12:26<codingquark>Not using network manager, nmcli is not installed on the system
12:27<jhutchins_wk>codingquark: So fix that.
12:27<retrospectacus>you just write your networks in /etc/wpa_supplicant/wpa_supplicant.conf
12:27<codingquark>*Should* I be using it? Currently the system is able to run the wpa_supplicant from systemd.
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12:35<retrospectacus>I do not use nmcli on this raspberry pi, but it does not move around. nmcli might be handy for switching between networks if you do that often
12:36<codingquark>I see.
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12:37<codingquark>Is nmcli the default way to go for wpa_supplicant+systemd configs?
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12:42<retrospectacus>if you installed wpa-supplicant and systemd and did not get nmcli, then no.
12:43<retrospectacus>in general though, you can do whatever you want, so debian does not choose for you
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12:47<codingquark>Hmm, good guy Debian
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12:53<junes2>no sound in buster???
12:54<codingquark>Sound's good for me in buster.
12:54<codingquark>pavucontrol is what I was using in Deb9, it carried over fine in 10
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12:55<dhanil>where u from
12:55<junes2>analog test gives no sound
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12:58<junes2>fix no sound???
12:59<retrospectacus>junes2: did you try pavucontrol
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13:01<junes2>pavucontrol a debian package???
13:02<retrospectacus>it is a program. It can be installed by a package, I believe the package has the same name.
13:02<retrospectacus>judd: file bin/pavucontrol
13:02<judd>Search for bin/pavucontrol in buster/amd64: pavucontrol: usr/bin/pavucontrol
13:04<junes2>same/better than 'Qt port of volume control pavucontrol' ?
13:04<junes2>pavucontrol-qt ??
13:05<retrospectacus>if you are using KDE then you probably want that one, yeah
13:05<junes2>using mate
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13:07<junes2>no -usr/bin/pavucontrol- in usr/bin ...
13:08<retrospectacus>what did you install
13:09<junes2>found 'pavucontrol' in synapticPackageManager, not installed anything yet
13:09<junes2>proceed with install?
13:10<junes2>unable to initialize frontend: Dialog ?? help ??
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13:13<junes2>pavucontrol installed -no sound-
13:15<PatFr>junes2: are the speakers or headphones plugged in?
13:15<PatFr>junes2: did you check the volume control?
13:15<retrospectacus>pavucontrol is the volume control. Run it and poke around
13:16<junes2>laptop, no earphones, vlume at 130%
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13:18<junes2>pulseaudio-13.0.tar .xz ?open with emgrampa
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13:18<PatFr>no, no. why would you mess with source packages
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13:20<junes2>no sound from pulseaudio etc???
13:20<jhutchins_wk>!alsa checklist
13:20<dpkg>1) add yourself to the 'audio' group (log out & in again) 2) unmute and raise channels w/ alsamixer (also try muting some & toggle jack sense if available) 3) <pulseaudio> or other daemon stopped? 4) speakers on? 5) does "aplay /usr/share/sounds/alsa/Noise.wav" work for root? 6) purge any installed <oss4> packages to remove ALSA blacklist. See also <list alsa users>, <alsa firmware>.
13:20<jhutchins_wk>junes2: Get the alsa layer working first
13:22<junes2>add yourself to the 'audio' group (no user/group app??)
13:23<junes2>jhutchins_wk : Get the alsa layer working first where should I start?
13:27<junes2>hearing -error(not found) sound on Opera:find menu
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13:32<junes2>need 'usergroup' app?
13:32<junes2>how about a media player app
13:33<sqrt{not}>junes2: if you are hearing a "not found" sound, then sound is working
13:34<junes2>agree... wanting a 'startup' sound :)
13:34<junes2>do not see a media player app
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13:35<sqrt{not}>junes2: to add to a group, do this: sudo adduser junes2 audio
13:37<junes2>got this 'The user `sammier' is already a member of `audio'. ...
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13:37<sqrt{not}>OK then, you are in that group
13:38<sqrt{not}>here are some media players, I use 'vlc' but it is not a simple one
13:38<sqrt{not}>!media player
13:40<junes2>running now 'vlc' install synaptic ..
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13:41<junes2>what does '!' mean??
13:41<sqrt{not}>sorry, it is a way to address the bot named dpkg, but it doesn't have that factoid apparently
13:42<dpkg>Please visit to learn how to effectively search the factoids database for FAQ, and not flood in the channel with !tell <who> about <what>. Also ask me about <msg the bot>. We ask that you learn to search for yourself first, unless it is a specific problem. Many questions are asked repeatedly, and the factoid database can be of great help to you. Ask me about <search dpkg>.
13:43<sqrt{not}>so when you see an answer like that, with stuff inside < > brackets, you can ask that keyword to dpkg with /msg or with the ! prefix
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13:44<junes2>!virtualbox guest additions
13:46<dpkg>Oracle VM VirtualBox is an almost free software virtual machine solution. To install, see or ask me about <vbox-install jessie>, <vbox-install wheezy>. #vbox on See also <vbox rename>, <vbox guest>, <vbox extpack>, <vbox migrate win>, <vdi>, <virtualization>.
13:47<sqrt{not}>so, because that answer ^^ mentions <vbox guest> you can do this:
13:47<sqrt{not}>!vbox guest
13:47<dpkg>For Debian VMs (guests) under VirtualBox, install the virtualbox-guest-utils package (from <stretch-backports>) inside the guest to provide Guest Additions; Linux kernel modules are built automatically by <dkms>. For MS Windows guests, install the virtualbox-guest-additions-iso package on the host (see <non-free sources>) and see for installation instructions.
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13:49<sqrt{not}>hmmm, that vbox package is a little old, but there does not seem to be a buster package for it
13:49<sqrt{not}>,v virtualbox-guest-utils
13:49<judd>Package: virtualbox-guest-utils on amd64 -- jessie/contrib: 4.3.36-dfsg-1+deb8u1; jessie-security/contrib: 4.3.36-dfsg-1+deb8u1; stretch-backports/contrib: 5.2.24-dfsg-4~bpo9+1; sid/contrib: 6.0.12-dfsg-1
13:50<sqrt{not}>I think the people here recommend other virtual machine solutions than Oracle Virtualbox, maybe someone else can suggest one for you
13:52<junes2>using 'portable-vbox(vboxme) on flashdrive ...
13:52<junes2>Vmware wants to control my box
13:52<junes2>host box
13:53<junes2>wher do I find 'virtualbox-guest-utils on amd64' ?
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13:55<junes2>not in synapticPackage manager (lookup/search) ?
13:55<sqrt{not}>there is not a buster (Debian 10) version, judd listed versions only for older debian releases and for sid (which is "unstable" not recommended)
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13:56<junes2>'not a buster (Debian 10) version' so what is recourse?
13:58<junes2>!virtualbox guestadditions
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13:58<sney>oracle licensing made it so debian can't package that anymore
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13:58<sney>there should be an option in the virtualbox interface to insert the guest additions cd iso, then you can install them from whatever binary installer is provided
13:59<sney>the virtualbox website will also have instructions
14:00<junes2>error auto running software ... 'cannot find autorun program'
14:01<junes2>virtualbox website even for Debian
14:01<blast007>what are you needing the guest additions for?
14:03<junes2>share host files :(
14:04<TobiX>junes2: The Debian Wiki has instructions: and also a link to the reason why VirtualBox won't be in Debian stable
14:05<junes2><TobiX>: thanks much , will look into that ... :)
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14:06<TobiX>(Probably ever, because its more likely for hell to freeze over then for Oracle to change its security patch policy)
14:08<junes2>This Debian VM has GUI, but laptop install went to terminal input , any clues why it happened that way
14:08<sney>did you select a debian desktop environment during install?
14:09<junes2>TobiX> Is that 'security patch policy)' something to concern me ???
14:09<junes2><sney> thought so, but guess not
14:10<sney>junes2: you can run 'tasksel' (as root, or with sudo) to add tasks you might have missed
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14:11<junes2><sney> exactly what 'tasks' ???
14:11<sney>tasks are large collections of packages, like desktop environments, or "laptop" etc. run the program and you will see what I mean
14:12<junes2>ok, cranking up now
14:13<TobiX>junes2: It's just that since Oracle won't tell anyone what the changed for each fix version, this makes Oracle products incompatible with Debian stable, which only gets security updates (simplyfied explanation, it's a bit more complicated then that)
14:13<junes2>the object in question is a laptop
14:13<junes2>also may need wifi firmware
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14:16<junes2><sney> ''sudo tasksel' does nothing
14:16<sney>does nothing?
14:17<retrospectacus>you didn't type those apostrophes did you
14:18<junes2>first time asked for password , not ssecond run
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14:19<sney>the ' ' are not part of the command
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14:19<junes2><sney> I know , how do I get a desktop?
14:20<sney>tasksel is supposed to give you a menu to select one. are you sure you are in a running debian system right now?
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14:21<junes2>yes ,other laptop, only text entry???
14:21<sney>I don't understand your reply.
14:21<dvs>sney, I don't have tasksel either (at least not as a tab complete)
14:22<sney>the tasksel package is Priority: important so that seems unlikely?
14:23<dvs>un tasksel <none> <none> (no description available)
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14:23<sney>,v tasksel
14:23<judd>Package: tasksel on amd64 -- jessie: 3.31+deb8u1; stretch: 3.39; buster: 3.53; bullseye: 3.55; sid: 3.55
14:23<junes2>sney : the issue is on another laptop I am that trying to install debian on
14:23<jhutchins_wk>junes2: sudo caches the password for a configurable period.
14:23<sney>that's irrelevant and now he's going to be more confused
14:24<junes2>jhutchins_wk>: that's kinda cool ...
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14:25<sney>junes2: we can skip tasksel, you can install the desktop with apt. choose one you want, and then the package to install is task-name-desktop. for instance, I use KDE, so I would have installed task-kde-desktop
14:27<retrospectacus>,i tasksel
14:27<judd>Package tasksel (admin, important) in buster/amd64: tool for selecting tasks for installation on Debian systems. Version: 3.53; Size: 92.8k; Installed: 378k; Screenshot:
14:28<retrospectacus>how in the ___ would you not have that
14:28<sney>I was imagining maybe a livecd, but it should be there too, just not super useful
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14:30<junes2><sney> thanks all[ (how do select the TABBed responses) ] busted screen, and faulty keyboard puts some limits on what I can do :(
14:31<sney>let us know if you have a question
14:33<junes2><sney> what is the specific cmd to install a desktop?
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14:34<retrospectacus>which desktop would you like
14:34<sney>apt install packagename, so if you want gnome you would do apt install task-gnome-desktop, if you want kde you would do apt install task-kde-desktop, etc
14:34<junes2>I like Mate
14:34<retrospectacus>!install mate
14:34<dpkg>To install <MATE> on established systems, ask me about <install x>, then: «apt-get install mate-desktop-environment» (for more things, also install mate-desktop-environment-extras). To install using Debian-Installer: from the 'Software selection' dialog, choose "MATE" (use space bar to toggle selections), then "Continue".
14:36<retrospectacus>didn't you install pavucontrol earlier using synaptic? You must already have a DE, no? Or reinstalled
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14:38<junes2>different laptop, left side for screen(damaged), [ -,),(, ] and other keys not working :(
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15:34<jlgaddis>"apt-get install linux-source-X.Y" ?
15:34<jlgaddis>Erm, ignore that... /me was stuck in scrollback.
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16:08<user34234>hello! trying to install debian 10.1 at HP laptop with ryzen 3600U and Vega8. I choose graphical install and graphics make text unreadable. Can anyone help me?
16:09<sney>reboot and choose the other install option, you will have to navigate the menus with the arrow keys but the install will proceed normally otherwise. you can set up your gpu afterwards
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16:10<user34234>same thing happens. Its like graphics are broken either in graphic installation or normal installation
16:11<sney>try with the 'nomodeset' kernel parameter. I don't remember offhand where to add a boot option for the installer but it should be fairly easy to find
16:11<user34234>thanks for the help!
16:12<user34234>disabled amd-vi and booted from uefi (not legacy) and it is working!
16:12<user34234>thank you for the help!!
16:12<sney>oh there you go
16:12<dpkg>Another happy customer leaves the building.
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16:14<user34234>it took me more than an hour that problem to solve.. i tried everything, even the nomodeset
16:14<user34234>but i guess if you boot legacy it doesnt load the correct drivers or something
16:14<user34234>it must boot in uefi to load correctly
16:15<sney>usually uefi is recommended, I haven't seen legacy used in a long time except as a workaround for a buggy bios
16:15<somiaj>or people who are too lazy to switch (aka me)
16:16<user34234>i prefer legacy because i have to run windows too and i encrypt them with veracrypt that has its own bootloader that isnt uefi
16:16<somiaj>user34234: uefi provides a generic video driver that it passes to the kernel
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16:18<somiaj>hmm, can't seem to find deatils on it, but I thought that efi provides additional video info that the linux kernel can use.
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18:34<Celelibi>Oh jeez! I d3finitely didn't do an apt-get source linux-image-5.2-amd and t totally downloaded the full sources.
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18:41<sney>linux kernel source is the same size regardless of what command you use to get it
18:41<sney>give or take a version anyway
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18:45<Celelibi>That's the issue.
18:45<Celelibi>apt-get source doesn't download the kernel sources.
18:46<Celelibi>I don't know what this is. But a 1MB archive doesn't contain the kernel sources anyway.
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18:48<donofrio>so I have the netinstall 10 cd mounted and freshly scanned so it'
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18:49<donofrio>so it's good on powerpc g4 powerbook I'm trying to install, which mirror has the files I far it seem sto be working but says "security" couln't be found
18:50<sney>Celelibi: looks like it's just a bunch of debian-specific build stuff, yeah.
18:50<sney>donofrio: can you pastebin the whole error message?
18:50<Celelibi>Looks like so.
18:52<Celelibi>So still no idea how to compile that ee1004 driver without recompiling a whole kernel.
18:53<sney>off the top of my head I think you could select only that module in 'make config', then run 'make dep modules' and you should only get that module
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18:53<sney>but I haven't tried anything like this since the 2.6 days so YMMV
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18:56<sney>you will still need the whole kernel source tree, of course.
18:58<donofrio>I dunno it just says "A step fail" and that step is installing grub?
18:59<sney>oh you're still in the installer? sorry, that wasn't clear
18:59<sney>if it lets you skip the step about the security repo then that can be ignored safely
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18:59<sney>and if you press alt+f4 while in the installer, there may be some more useful information on that console
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19:18<Celelibi>sney, with what sources?
19:18<Celelibi>Taking stock 5.2 source tree won't be good enough.
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20:01<sqrt{not}>Celelibi: did you look at package linux-source-5.2 it is 107MB , and includes the file /usr/src/linux-source-5.2.tar.xz
20:02<sqrt{not}>there is also this:
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20:11<owo__>hello, having a strange problem. when doing a fresh install of Jessie (using either netinstaller or XFCE CD) and setting up full disk encryption, I get an error at boot saying that the volume group for the encrypted root partition cannot be found.
20:11<owo__>then it drops into initramfs
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20:12<owo__>I am right now having a look at grub.cfg in /boot/ using a Knoppix live cd. any ideas for what to look for?
20:13<owo__>I have tried reinstalling several times, and the problem persists. no idea why it can't find the volume group for the encrypted root volume.
20:14<supaman>owo__: sorry, can't help with that problem but just want to point out that jessie is old stable, buster is the latest stable release, you should use that one unless you have a really good reason to stick to jessie
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20:14<annadane>jessie is oldoldstable
20:14<annadane>but, yes
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20:15<supaman>ah, even more reason to upgrade
20:15<owo__>woops, my mistake @supaman. I am actually trying to install Stretch (Debian 9).
20:16<owo__>I've never had this problem before when installing Debian with FDE, including on this same machine.
20:16<owo__>i zeroed out the disk's header with dd before the last reinstall, just to be sure nothing weird was happening there. no change
20:18<owo__>perhaps I'll try installing stable and see if it works
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20:21<owo__>woops my mistake, I was trying to install Buster testing (I am very tired right now...)
20:22<owo__>trying stable, will report back on if the problem exists for me there as well
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20:41<owo__>hmm, very strange. I just installed Buster stable, and when booting it goes directly to the grub command prompt
20:42<owo__>no errors are displayed before that occurs
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20:59<emichelson_>can someone help with ssh server and/or client problem?
21:00<Psychotronics>Hello. I just installed Debian 10.1.0 on my t60 laptop. I installed ssh server and standard system utilities. but I'm told there's no shutdown command, no adduser, and no usermod. I'm obviously missing something important.
21:01<sqrt{not}>!buster su
21:01<dpkg>The <su> command changed in buster: it no longer overrides the PATH variable so commands normally available to root are not found. Put ALWAYS_SET_PATH yes in /etc/login.defs to get an approximation of the old behavior, or just use `su -` instead of plain `su`. See for workarounds.
21:01<sqrt{not}>Psychotronics: ^^^
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21:04<Psychotronics>Thank you all very much.
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21:07<owo__>okay, I just installed Debian 9, and the problem with the encrypted root volume not being found at boot is not present. it appears that that problem exists only on Debian 10, both stable and testing.
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21:08<owo__>let me know if anyone would like any information about my system so that the problem can be addressed.
21:09<owo__>(ignore that "one", wrong window)
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21:18<sakax>wanted to know if it was i386 or amd64 install
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21:19<sakax>faced similar issue when upgrading an old i386 stretch machine
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22:30<kryptonite>sigh, another dead chat
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23:12<adga137>systemd not set default init system from de proyect......... exists sysvinit, openrt and others, please no use systemd "default".
23:13<annadane>unfortunately that ship has kind of sailed
23:13<annadane>it's a valid concern i guess though, i don't know where someone might go to address developers on it
23:13<annadane>(this is a support chat, most developers aren't here)
23:13<sney>it's a "I'm scared of new things" concern >90% of the time
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23:15<rob_debian>Hi all, please, I'd like to have the emacs editor icon, but after I've installed emacs and emacs25 package, I only can access emacs typing 'emacs' in prompt. Please, how to get this icon ? It makes emacs use more practical.
23:16<sney>adga137: if you have a legitimate use case for debian without systemd, there is a fork called "devuan" and probably some other smaller derivatives. It is also likely possible to build a debian system that uses sysvinit(or openrc, or upstart, etc whatever) manually with debootstrap. But changing the default was an argument that lasted over a year and has been fully decided, officially
23:16<sney>unlikely to change unless systemd is ever abandoned as a project.
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23:17<sney>And if your use case for debian without systemd is "I read some crap on the internet and it gave me opinions," try it with systemd. It made a lot of things easier for normal professionals and whatever FUD you got from somewhere is just that
23:18-!-preview [~quassel@2407:7000:8423:b75:802e:c8e1:46d2:7ffa] has quit [Quit: preview]
23:18<sney>rob_debian: install emacs-gtk?
23:19<rob_debian>Hi sney, nice to see you after a hard day yesterday :) Thank you very much !
23:20<annadane>i've so far managed to avoid a lot of direct interaction with systemd
23:20<annadane>i still use cron jobs instead of systemd timers
23:21<rob_debian>Hi annadane !
23:21<sney>it made a lot of things better, left a lot of things the same, and the only real noticeable con is an uptick in rando critics who don't know what they're talking about
23:21<annadane>it also helps debian doesn't have leading edge versions
23:22<rob_debian>Please, is there any specific documentation provided by Debian Project for 'systemd' ?
23:22<annadane>sure, man systemd.index, /usr/share/doc/systemd
23:23<annadane>not that i'm avoiding systemd timers specifically, i just haven't learned how this stuff works
23:23<annadane>i'll get around to it eventually
23:23<rob_debian>Fine, annadane, I always like to get Linux knowledge and other related Debian topics through Debian fonts. Thank you !
23:23<sney> there's this section too
23:24<annadane>if you start typing man systemd and then press tab a bunch of times you'll get a whole list of man pages
23:24<annadane>but that's probably really confusing
23:24<annadane>i'd just read if anything
23:25<annadane>for instance see the section 'systemd for administrators blog series'
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23:26<annadane>it really is something you should learn GRADUALLY instead of trying to memorize everything
23:26<annadane>i can do all my daily computing without touching anything in systemd
23:27<rob_debian>Thank you very much sney :) By the way, emacs icon hasn't appeared after I've installed emacs-gtk. I'm not sure if I rebooted machine in the past in other debian installation to take effect...
23:27<rob_debian>Telling to me about learn GRADUALLY, annadane ?
23:28<rob_debian>About systemd ?
23:28<annadane>basically for the average computer user you won't need to learn about systemd. it's just a convenience
23:29<annadane>systemd's full knowledge base is spread across several dozen man pages and website links so if you want to "learn systemd" you have to keep that in mind, to not try to learn everything at once
23:29<rob_debian>I see, thanks for the 'average', for sometimes I feel myself quite newbie managing debian :)
23:29<annadane>and that's true for anything. you don't need to read the entire man page for grep to learn about grep, for instance
23:30<adga137>sney, systemd consumes enough computational resources, a systemd question is thought to access user's $home
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23:30<annadane>just about anything can access a user's $home
23:30<rob_debian>But, if you consider like that, there's some reason for that, thank you ! Well, sometimes I think a little bit difficult studying through man pages, because syntax used over there. But, that's my fault, surely.
23:31<rob_debian>I'll reboot here in few minutes to see if 'emacs' icon is born.
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23:31<sney>a) yes, it consumes "enough" (wut) 2) any process run as root can access anything on disk, but init is not going to do that in normal situations, unless you have a daemon running that gets config from there, or whatever
23:31<annadane>you rarely need to reboot, rob_debian
23:31<annadane>this isn't windows
23:32<annadane>do reboot if: kernel update, microcode update - i myself use the needrestart package to tell me when stuff has to be restarted
23:32<annadane>firmware update
23:32<sney>besides, systemd is a local daemon, even if it were somehow spying on your homedir for some reason, it has no mechanism to share that data with anyone else
23:33<rob_debian>yes, I see...Please, why emacs icon is not available yet here ? I installed emacs, emacs25 package and emacs-gtk, but icon is not here ...
23:33<annadane>what desktop are you running?
23:33<sney>in during "I read some crap on the internet and it gave me opinions"
23:33<rob_debian>needrestart ?
23:33<annadane>yes, needrestart is a debian package
23:33<rob_debian>Oh, so I'll install it here !
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23:34<annadane>i know for me running xfce emacs takes a while to show up in my applications menu, don't know why that's the case
23:34<annadane>anyway, for the most part in linux reboots aren't necessary
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23:35<rob_debian>I see, annadane. Well, emacs editor is opening fine here, despite the fact icon is absent
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23:35<rob_debian>I can "administer" my debian using emacs without any issue, for it's running fine.
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23:37<annadane>there's a ton of stuff to learn in anything, be it debian, systemd or just... anything, the only question is what part of it is important to you
23:38<annadane>adga137, regarding systemd you're probably not as likely to run into problems as some other distros like fedora or arch (for example), debian's software is older but more tested
23:38<annadane>you're not likely to run into a problem with a newer version of systemd, because debian uses older versions
23:39<annadane>i don't know if "spying on user's $home" was your *only* concern about it or not, but...
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23:41<annadane>and also just to reiterate, the home folder is the only place where an unprivileged user can write stuff regardless
23:41<annadane>if systemd is going to spy on it then anything else will too
23:41<adga137>mmmmm i can use debootstrap for create debian modified, a debian -> init openrc????
23:41<annadane>there are legitimate systemd criticisms but that isn't it
23:41<rob_debian>Well annadane, I see what you mean, annadane. Yeah, Debian is really a Linux universe. It is a very robust and sophisticated Distribution, and in my case, I need to read 'Debian Reference' from beginning to end to feel more secure in front of this Sacred Monster called Debian
23:42<annadane>well, even i haven't read the debian reference
23:42<annadane>because i'm lazy, and i probably should
23:42<annadane>but you can get by without it i guess
23:42<rob_debian>Not trying to read everything that contains the man pages, because as You observed, this form of study is not so essential.
23:43<annadane>openrc is actually packaged in debian, no i don't know how to make it work with debian
23:43<rob_debian>Fine annadane :)
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23:44<rob_debian>In my case, basically the basics for an overview of System Administration, this I consider fundamental. I can't even think about studying docker or something more specific in Debian for now ....
23:45<annadane>the debian reference is a nice resource but it's a little bit thick, the handbook may be a little more intelligible for a new user
23:45<rob_debian>I meant: docker in debian
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23:46<annadane>i find it hilarious you think i know so much about debian, you don't know how often i screw up and how little i actually know :P
23:50<rob_debian>I've read some parts, not whole parts, but some paragraphs, and I liked a lot that technical and objective literary style. A very straightforward style and not so easy to understand immediately, but I still managed to understand what I read.
23:50<annadane>but what's great about debian is you can easily scale up knowledge, it's not rocket science to learn the basics and learning about more advanced things is relatively seamless
23:50<rob_debian>What I need to do is read more about Debian, I recognize this. The worst thing about me is that it's not about laziness
23:51<rob_debian>Really, annadane ! That's fine this approach :)
23:52<annadane>the single most important document is
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23:54<rob_debian>Oh, I've read it completely some years ago. Thanks to this reading, My Debian is always fine (but, there is a 3rd party repository into my sources.list (virtualbox). Despite this, it's very stable, doesn't crash or freezes, performs everything you "tells" it to do.
23:55<adga137>mmmm i read doc's debian, i build a debian modified for my requeriments.. debian is a Universal Operative System :)
23:57<annadane>i'm sure your "requirements" aren't harmed by systemd
23:57<adga137>rob_debian, use virtmanager for create virtual machines......
23:57<annadane>but whatever
23:57<annadane>well, i hear virtualbox is easier to use
23:59-!-ol [~quassel@2406:e006:5eb:1a01:8e89:a5ff:feca:57fe] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
23:59<rob_debian>Hi adga137 ! Nice to meet you here :) Please, adga137, does virtmanager as intuitive as virtualbox ? I tested qemu in the past
---Logclosed Sat Sep 28 00:00:18 2019