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#debian IRC Logs for 2019-10-02

---Logopened Wed Oct 02 00:00:29 2019
---Daychanged Wed Oct 02 2019
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02:25<junes2>forgot login password Butster , edited grub, 'init=/bin/bash/ ' ,still goe to logon screen
02:26<junes2>help reset login password please
02:26<junes2>Debian Buster 10
02:27<junes2>!forgot login password
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02:29<DusXMT>junes2: boot up a live CD, chroot, and invoke passwd, that's the easiest approach imho
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02:29<DusXMT>(and got to go now, school)
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02:35<dpkg>To chroot into your Debian system boot to your Debian install disk/live CD, switch to the other console (Alt-F2). Mount your root filesystem with "mount -t ext2 /dev/whatever /target" and make /dev, /proc and /sys usable with "mount --rbind --make-rslave /dev /target/dev ; mount -t proc none /target/proc ; mount -t sysfs none /target/sys". You can then chroot into the system with "chroot /target".
02:36<junes2>!invoke passwd
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02:37<jm_>!i forgot root's password
02:37<dpkg>For GRUB: 1) press 'e' to edit the kernel setting in the grub command line (add 'init=/bin/sh' to the end of it) 2) 'fsck' your root file system, 3) 'mount -o remount,rw /', 4) 'passwd root' 5) 'mount -o remount,ro /' 6) 'reboot -d -f' (exec /sbin/init should work); For LILO: 1) 'Linux init=/bin/sh' at the LILO boot prompt (hold Shift while booting), steps 2-6 are the same; For yaboot: 1) 'Linux init=/bin/sh' at yaboot prompt.
02:38<jm_>'init=/bin/bash/ ' is wrong, should be init=/bin/sh (i.e. the redundant part is "/ "
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02:40<jm_>also, debian installer has rescue option IIRC, check if that already does the chroot dance
02:41<junes2> <jm_> are root and login the same password, would that bring up the 'root prompt to be able to do this "mount -n -o remount,rw /", what is "IIRC,"
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02:42<jm_>junes2: no, but that's just a matter of running the passwd command with correct arguments (i.e. «passwd username» instead of just «passwd»)
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02:42-!-Gromit is "Jan-Hendrik Palic" on #debian
02:42<dpkg>IIRC, "IIRC" is an acronym for "If I Recall Correctly", or "If I remember correctly"
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02:42<junes2><jm_> changing 'init=/bin/bash/ ' is wrong, should be init=/bin/sh
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02:44<jm_>I didn't say chaning it is wrong, I said your syntax is wrong
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02:47<junes2>that grub edit did not allow me chance to "mount -n -o remount,rw /" , no root prompt started ,straight back to login screen
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02:49-!-mode/#debian [+l 613] by debhelper
02:49<junes2><jm_> bash different from sh :( sorry for weakness
02:50<junes2><jm_> OK live is running, I'll save this page and try the suggestions
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02:51<jm_>junes2: are you sure you edited the correct line in grub?
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02:53<junes2>running in Virtualbox[flashdrive] check which folder (for quickness)
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02:55<junes2><jm_> is there a folder 'containing the password usr/bin/???
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02:57<junes2> <jm_> see lots of grub files in /user/bin
02:58<junes2> <jm_> maybe later on I'm getting a little tired
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02:59<jm_>junes2: the passwords are stored in shadow file, /etc/shadow, if that's what you are asking
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06:09<monstro>i need help
06:13<DusXMT>well then, ask your question :)
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06:29<idys>iDhei ciehdnc wihsuq hHO-0dj
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06:40<grummund>is there a way to prevent sudo exporting DISPLAY variable?
06:41<grummund>so for example sudo emacs ... would open in the current xterm.
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06:48<jm_>grummund: yes, you can control env vars with sudo
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06:51<grummund>hmm, env_reset is enabled by default so maybe DISPLAY is not actually being exported.
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08:02<linux77>hi guys, hereis time to say good morning!
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08:05<linux77>anyone known if have an public domain extension to i use without problems?
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09:00<linux77>hey guys an strange thins has occur here i already installed buster stable on my notebook without any connection bind solves an all entire web names with good cookie
09:00<linux77>i no is crazy
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09:00<linux77>my notebook is not configured for any connection and bind works on ip4 and ip6 but all other proccess no have acces to solve bind names
09:01<linux77>what is happening here
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09:03<linux77>i don't jodge me an expert in anything but these is very strange once time my network wifi is didabled and no wired connection
09:04<linux77>my wifi not appear in list of ifconfig -a but this notebook use debian since sarge
09:04<linux77>on buster my wifi is not detected
09:04<linux77>why is happening
09:05<linux77>any help are greatly welcome!
09:06<linux77>i already is using sid in my Desktop box and stable on my notebook
09:07<linux77>my bind servers is strange at these two boxes
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09:16<DusXMT>linux77: the language barrier is quite thick here, could help if you told your request to a friend in your language and then have them translate it to english
09:16<DusXMT>(since I couldn't figure out what you were trying to say)
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09:26<dpkg>Este canal é apenas em inglês. Por favor, use #debian-br (/j #debian-br) para ajuda em portugues.
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09:27<linux77>i have more of i don't need to talk only in portuguese
09:27<linux77>i can talk in english fine
09:27<linux77>excuse a lot of gramatical issues
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09:28<grove>DusXMT said he couldn't understand you, I can't either, so it's quite a bold statement that you "can talk in english fine"
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09:28<linux77>please show me an phrase i already had posted in !br
09:28<linux77>here i pratice my english to make it better
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09:30<grove>I don't think anybody is against you getting better at english, but you won't get any (useable) help on your issues if nobody understands them
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09:33<linux77>if any had an issue with this why defends the freedom
09:33<linux77>i an learning in englis at more of twenty years
09:33<linux77>thanks grove
09:33<linux77>the case is my notebook don't have any connection setup and i install a fresh buster on it
09:33<linux77>the system already connected with ip6 and bind works in solve the names
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09:34<linux77>why i am expulse? i don't understand
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09:36<grove>Because you wrote several lines fairly quickly. I don't know them limits, but to debhelper what you did looked like you pasted stuff, and that is generally not liked
09:36<linux77>ok, thanks ofr explanation, i greatly thanks
09:36<grove>The topic of this channel (but it's unpoular on most irc channels) even contains "NO FLOOD: /msg dpkg paste"
09:39<Andria>Hello, I'd like to install my scanner Canon LiDE300. I try with the libsane-pixma backends, but it still not work. Any idea ?
09:40<tarzeau>Andria: does lsusb show it?
09:41<tarzeau>Andria: if it's a supported scanner, you plug it in, launch xsane, and it works
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10:06<Andria>tarzeau, it's work with canon's software, but very ugly. It doesn't work with plug&play
10:07<Andria>sane indicate it has been installed without libusb-0.1.6 at less.... i can't do that
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10:12<user_>can any one say how to decode a handshake
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10:13<Icefoz>user_: What kind of handshake?
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10:13<grove>Icefoz: He left
10:14<blast007>must be a secret handshake
10:15<Icefoz>Suppose so.
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10:26<linux77>none can help me?
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10:47<towo`>linux77, no one knows, what's your problem
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10:56<Icefoz>Hmmm, a backports question... I thought backports were just all the packages from release X+1 built on release X if X+1's version is newer, but there appears to be many packages that aren't in buster-backports that are newer in bullseye. What am I misunderstanding?
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10:58<GyrosGeier>Icefoz, only packages where someone cares are backported
10:59<Icefoz>Ah, that makes sense.
10:59<GyrosGeier>also, no libraries
10:59<GyrosGeier>if avoidable
10:59<Icefoz>Well, I will think about how I want to get my hands on the newer version for testing, then.
10:59<GyrosGeier>otherwise backports would be identical to X+1
10:59<GyrosGeier>all that exists is a package
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11:33<linux77>hey guys my bind localhost zones files had disapeared
11:35<GyrosGeier>these are conffiles=
11:35<GyrosGeier>they shouldn't disappear
11:36<sqrt{not}>Icefoz: it is possible to roll your own backport. This factoid tells how to do it from sid sources; I think you could apply the same to testing sources too.
11:37<sqrt{not}>!simple sid backport
11:37<dpkg>First, check for a backport on <debian-backports>. If unavailable: 1) Add a deb-src line for sid (not a deb line!); ask me about <deb-src sid> 2) enable debian-backports (see <bdo>) 3) apt update; apt install build-essential; apt build-dep packagename 4) apt -b source packagename 5) dpkg -i packagename-ver.deb To change compilation options, see <package recompile>; for versions newer than sid see <uupdate>.
11:39<sqrt{not}>Icefoz: also ignore the obsolete advice about <bdo>
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11:50<sqrt{not}>(maybe <bdo> not obsolete advice after all, but not really needed for the compiling option)
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11:55<junes2><DusXMT> junes2: boot up a live CD, chroot, and invoke passwd, that's the easiest approach imho -worked- thanks
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11:57<junes2>where is 'edited grub, 'init=/bin/bash/ ' ,do I need to undo this
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12:06<animal>does anyone know in which package "strings" is in?
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12:07<DusXMT>animal: binutils
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12:22<linux77>hey guy i already instaled firmware fot my wifi on my notebook and it have an fresh buster install
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12:23<linux77>but i can't turn on my wifi device with keyboard button and this appear only in lspci
12:23<linux77>but no appear in ifconfig or any userland app
12:23<linux77>any tip for me?
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12:28<Icefoz>sqrt{not}: Thank you!
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12:40<rob_debian>Hi all, please, why 'cinelerra' application isn't still available in debian stable repositories ? It's open source, fun and advanced video editor for Linux...
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12:43<Icefoz>rob_debian: Nobody's kept it up to date and packaged it, presumably.
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12:54<Rayhan_Akond_Hridoy>Sir, there is no sound work on my laptop
12:55<rob_debian>Hi Icefoz, thanks for answering me ! Nice to meet you from here :)
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12:56<Rayhan_Akond_Hridoy>Sir, there is no sound work on my laptop
12:56<rob_debian>I see, Icefoz, really couldn't understand why. It's so nice application....
12:57<Rayhan_Akond_Hridoy>What should i do now??
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13:02<Icefoz>rob_debian: Nice to meet you too. And, I don't know much about it, so I couldn't say why. Sometimes things just get left behind because there's no volunteers to maintain them.
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13:03<Icefoz>rob_debian: If you can find the package on you can often look in the mailing list archives or bug reports and find a reason. People tend to talk about these things and ask for help before a package gets removed, from what little I know.
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13:07<jhutchins_wk>linux77: Special keys are often not configured on Linux, there are no real standards for them.
13:08<jhutchins_wk>linux77: Just turning the interface on doesn't configure and connect it. It would probably be easiest to manage it with Network Manager.
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13:11<rob_debian>I see Icefoz, it's really fine following this path you've suggested. Thank you very much for attention and Great Support !:)
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13:16<rob_debian>I see, Icefoz, good hint following this path you've suggested. I've installed it (cinelerra gg) just for tests through external repository, that I don't like to do. This installation is just for tests, my usual Debian installation doesn't have any 3rd party software
13:17<rob_debian>Strange, I did it in the past and it's generated a parallel sources.list for it, for I can't find cinelerra url in default debian sources.list
13:17<rob_debian>sources.list.d, I'm not sure. I can't find it now
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13:39<sqrt{not}>rob_debian: I think you are finding one of the problems of cinelerra: there are 2 or 3 or more competing versions of it, going off in different directions, with different codebases
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13:47<rob_debian_>Hi sqrt{not} nice to see you again ! Yes, there are competing versions, for more than one project focused on cinelerra, each with application development in different directions and with different priorities, I think ....
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14:16<scientes>is there any way to get gnome-shell to use less memory
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14:20<scientes>400MB of ram for a a stupid window manager is insane
14:20<scientes>and with wayland you can't restart it
14:22<sney>I think that's just part of the gnome design, unfortunately. upstream gnome's irc might have an idea but the real solution is likely to be "install more ram"
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14:23<jhutchins_wk>Gnome has never tried to be light on resources as long as I've know about it. (One of the reasons I don't use it.)
14:24<Icefoz>There's MATE and Cinnamon as well. ;-)
14:24<scientes>i liked unity-2d, but that god dropped long ago
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14:26<scientes>kinda pisses me off they make thinkpads without the trackpoint mouse
14:27<scientes>and the ones with are like 30% more expensive
14:27<sney>that's what off-lease business resellers are for
14:28<Icefoz>thinkpads have been going downhill since they started being made by Lenovo. Give 'em a couple more years and they'll be the same as everything else.
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14:29<sney>they got bought out by lenovo what, a decade ago? people keep saying that and it hasn't come true yet. and there were always problems with the IBM ones, too. I was an IBM warranty tech in 2005-6 and I specifically remember an X-series notebook that could fry its own motherboard if you moved a usb device from one port to another too quickly
14:29<sney>the business class laptops will always be fine and the consumer class ones will always be what you pay for
14:30<scientes>the trackpoint is out of patent too
14:31<sney>yep, so HP started putting them on their own business models in ~2014
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14:31<scientes>the latest patent just expired
14:31<dboles>jhutchins_wk: a massive effort lately has been to find and eliminate memory leaks and animation slowdown and more
14:31<jhutchins>Yeah, I have a couple of decent dells that have them.
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14:32<DusXMT>I kinda wonder, what exactly is the appeal of a track point? I mean, I used it once when I was in a field and it was cold outside, I could control the mouse even with gloves on, but other than controlling the mouse with gloves...
14:32<dboles>or, if not leaks, a lot of the recent stuff was about improving the garbage collector of GJs
14:32<scientes>which nvXX is maxwell?
14:32<dboles>which was causing not leaks but pessimistic recycling of memory (to be pedantic)
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14:39<scientes>how well are maxwell cards support by debian?
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14:40<DusXMT>As a rule of thumb, Radeon cards tend to have much better support, since AMD released their drivers as free software
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14:41<Icefoz>NVidia's closed-source drivers are pretty good but not stellar, AMD's are better nowadays.
14:41<scientes>I know but I found a 4K laptop for $830
14:41<sney>the nvidia proprietary blob driver is packaged in non-free and does usually work, but can introduce weird behavior and technical support is very limited. if you already have a nvidia gpu, that option is there for you, but if you're buying new see above
14:42<scientes>i really prefer avoiding the propritary driver
14:42<sney>also make sure that laptop gpu is not one of the "optimus" variety because those can be nearly impossible to get working depending on the configuration
14:42<scientes>king before
14:42<scientes>i had one of those working before
14:42<scientes>the support is better now
14:42<sney>"can be"... "depending on configuration"...
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14:55<scientes>hmm maybe i should got for a FHD laptop then, that i can put 32GB in
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15:08<oeoeoeoeoeb>Hi, the software "reportbug" sent me here, since a "general bug
15:08<oeoeoeoeoeb>" might be quicker discussed here
15:08<bremner>oeoeoeoeoeb: what is your general bug?
15:09<oeoeoeoeoeb>I did a fresh netinstall of debian 10.1 and the root user does not have /sbin/ in its $PATH
15:09<bremner>oeoeoeoeoeb: you need to use su -
15:09<bremner>or su -l
15:09<scientes>do they make laptops with skylake chips?
15:09<DusXMT>with the dash, since the default behavior of su is to not modify any environment variables
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15:10<oeoeoeoeoeb>oh, thanks, yes it works like that
15:10<bremner>scientes: I think they exist. don't know if they are shipping now
15:10<oeoeoeoeoeb>was that always the case? :)
15:10<bremner>oeoeoeoeoeb: su changed
15:10<DusXMT>No, we recently switched to a different implementation
15:10<oeoeoeoeoeb>ok, thanks bremner
15:10<DusXMT>the one provided by util-linux if I recall correctly
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15:13<jhutchins_wk>Actually, it's the elimination of a kludge so that su works the standard *nix way.
15:13<jhutchins_wk>It was added several years ago so that people who didn't know what they were doing could become root without having to think (great idea that).
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15:15<scientes>oh, intel is all weird
15:15<scientes>i'm looking for avx512
15:16<DusXMT>I thought that was sudo? (blurring the line between a regular user and root, without knowing the possible consequences of "just putting sudo before the command - it's to make it work")
15:17<DusXMT>"Just execute this shady script from my blog with sudo, it's to make it work!"
15:18<jhutchins_wk>Sudo is much abused and little configured.
15:19<DusXMT>I guess we have policykit nowadays in place of sudo
15:19<DusXMT>(when it comes to configurable admin rights)
15:19<DusXMT>(eg. to dim the screen, mount a drive, etc.)
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15:21<somiaj>with great admin power, comes great responsiblity
15:22<DusXMT>somiaj: that's why I think logging in as a different user is preferable, to truly give the user a feeling of "I have to be careful now", and to separate it from regular shenanigans in the shell that shouldn't be able to damage the system itself in any way
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15:23<somiaj>DusXMT: before sudo, people would often just leave root shells open, which to me is far worse.
15:23<scientes>oooo this looks nice
15:23<scientes>i like em small
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15:23<scientes>but again no trackpoint uhhh
15:23<somiaj>DusXMT: also I like to disable root login via both su and ssh, I think this adds (though maybe small) security, because of how many bot nets attack root
15:24<DusXMT>somiaj: the default configuration of sudo is just as bad - it has a timeout before it asks for a password again, so a tech-savy roommate could easily run root commands if they noticed that you ran sudo in an open shell (similarly to leaving an open root shell)
15:25<somiaj>but they would have to push you out of the way during that time out, since it is attached the the tty/pty being used.
15:25<DusXMT>somiaj: the same goes for those "root consoles that were left open"
15:25<somiaj>Problem is desktop users expect a windows like enviorment where they can just do anything they want to their machine by just clicking an 'okay' button
15:25<DusXMT>which is bad.
15:26<somiaj>DusXMT: the timeout is fairly small, so the window of opertunity is far less. But really there is no good solution that both gives sane defaults to a novice user who expects to be able to easily install/remove stuff from their system, and be secure.
15:26<somiaj>I think sudo with the defaults as is, is a decent option
15:26<somiaj>but the debian installer actually supports both. If the user assigns root a password during the install, sudo is not installed or setup
15:26<DusXMT>I humbly disagree
15:27<somiaj>if the user doesn't assign root a password, then it gives privlages to the primary user.
15:27<somiaj>Well what would you suggest to improve it?
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15:28<DusXMT>somiaj: to have root be a separate user, and not have the line blurred. Notice that this is merely a semantical difference, with a sudo setup root still exists and the setuid systemcall is still invoked in the same way as with su, but the perception the user is given is different
15:29<somiaj>Then as I said, in the debian installer assign root a password, and sudo will not be installed and the primary user will not be added to the sudo group.
15:29<somiaj>so I think debian nicely supports both options, though for a novice user it may not be clear during the install (or even what the root account password are for)
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15:30<DusXMT>Also, in regards to ssh, the default configuration has root login with a password disallowed, you have to use a public key
15:30<DusXMT>(which I recommend to configure for all users, and not just root)
15:30<somiaj>I think my systems are older than that change, let me see if I can track down when debian did that. But I would often have to go disallow root login via password in the past.
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15:31<somiaj>,v openssh-server
15:31<judd>Package: openssh-server on amd64 -- jessie: 1:6.7p1-5+deb8u4; jessie-security: 1:6.7p1-5+deb8u8; stretch-security: 1:7.4p1-10+deb9u6; stretch: 1:7.4p1-10+deb9u7; buster: 1:7.9p1-10; bullseye: 1:8.0p1-6; sid: 1:8.0p1-6
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15:33<somiaj>Yea, looks like it was stretch in which debian disabled root login via password over ssh default.
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15:34<somiaj>I just think there is no good method except educate the user. And though I was initially annoyed at that subtle difference in the installer setting up the primary user with sudo, I now like it more, as it gives the user choice (even if they don't realize it)
15:35<DusXMT>I agree. I just think that the simplicity of use of sudo can be deceptive, and can lead to abuse of it
15:35<DusXMT>The user should most definitely be allowed to set up the system the way they like
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15:37<jhutchins_wk>I've only used sudo when I needed to lock a user down to specific commands. There should be a "no root shell" setting.
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18:00<annadane>what are the various "top" tools? htop, iotop, what else?
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18:01<sney>there's an ntop I'm pretty sure
18:03<somiaj>annadane: htop I think is a variation of top, while iotop is different (monitorrs io trafic instead of cpu use)
18:03<somiaj>so I would be careful when you talk about top tools, as there are variants showing the same info, and those showing other info in a similar interface
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18:24<Aqua>Boa noite, senhores!
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18:25<annadane>boa noite; infelizmente este canal é suporte em inglês
18:26<dpkg>Este canal é apenas em inglês. Por favor, use #debian-br (/j #debian-br) para ajuda em portugues.
18:26<annadane>ou tente
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18:31<sney>I take it you have join/part messages turned off
18:31<annadane>how did you guess?
18:31<sney>you can always try to tab complete their name to make sure they are still here
18:33<somiaj>annadane: they left before you started talking
18:33<sney>that was the implication, yes
18:35<annadane>i consider that their fault, i'm not going to put on join/parts or tab complete every time for that
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18:36<annadane>5 minutes, 10 minutes ago? yes. 1 minute? ehh
18:36<annadane>i guess i should expect that the non english speakers or maybe specifically spanish/portuguese are prone to leave quickly
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18:38<sney>the "launching an irc client for the first time" effect
18:39<annadane>i do seriously intend at some point to go through dpkg's language factoids and add mailing lists so if they do have a question they can ask more people than 20 or less in those non english irc channels
18:39<sney>a noble goal
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18:40<dpkg>Kali Linux ( is a security and penetration testing distribution from the creators of <backtrack>. It is based on Debian, but it is not Debian and is not supported in #debian. Seek help in #kali-linux on or . Also ask me about <based on debian>, and read
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19:54<Onceuponaban>Hello. I am currently trying to install Debian, with a twist: the machine is *extremely* old (for reference: HDD measuring in the dozens of GB, 384MB of RAM, Intel Pentium III clocked at 733mhz, features a floppy disk drive next to the CD drive, and couldn't boot to USB until I got the plop boot manager on the machine)
19:54<sarnold>oo piii :) that's been a while
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19:55<Onceuponaban>The issue is that the installer isn't detecting the network card, and I have no idea which one is in the machine myself.
19:56<Onceuponaban>How can I figure that out and get my hands on the driver needed to connect to the Internet?
19:56<sarnold>Onceuponaban: lspci would be a decent starting point; dmesg may also have it
19:57<Onceuponaban>lspci did output the following line: 02:08:0 Ethernet controller: HighPoint Technologies, Inc. Device 1211
19:57<Onceuponaban>Unfortunately nothing relevant comes up from looking up the name of that company, apparently they mostly do RAID controllers nowadays
19:58<sarnold>heh I think even back then it was mostly ide controllers
19:59<Onceuponaban>I don't suppose there is some kind of generic driver that is likely to work, is there?
20:00<sarnold>Onceuponaban: the only 'highpoint' I spot in my kernel sources is indeed for disk controllers
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20:00<sarnold>Onceuponaban: *maybe* ne2k
20:00<sney>can we get a pciid for that? lspci -nn
20:01<sarnold>Onceuponaban: that machine might be a bit new for ne2k support but .. quite a lot of cards pretended to be ne2k, I think even into the pci era
20:01<sney>but also, if you've got a collection of p3-era hardware, maybe you've got a 3c59x or e100 nic lying around? either would be an upgrade
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20:04<Onceuponaban>I've got just the one, unfortunately. I got the machine from my high school's old computer stock a while back
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20:05<Onceuponaban>the pciid is the second set of characters between brackets, right?
20:05<Onceuponaban>If so, the one on the ethernet controller's line is [1103:1211]
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20:09<Onceuponaban>I think I might also have found a specs sheet for the series this computer belongs to:
20:10<Onceuponaban>The relevant page would be the fifth page:
20:10<sarnold>man the other choices were intel pro/100+ Management Adapter, intel pro/100+s, 3com 3c905c-tx ... and you got the "standard 10/100 pci nic"
20:11<sarnold>such a bummer, those 3c905s were great.. I wasn't a fan of the e100s at the time, their driver wasn't quite as nice imho but today it'd probably be the better supported choices..
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20:13<sarnold> -- nothing matching 1211
20:14<sarnold> -- nothing matchin 1211
20:14<sarnold>this isn't looking good :(
20:14<Onceuponaban>Thing is I swear there was an installer that detected this network card right away
20:15<Onceuponaban>I think debian 9.5's installer did?
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20:41<Onceuponaban>Anyone knows which driver would match my network card?
20:41<mome>Onceuponaban: What network card?
20:42<sarnold>02:08:0 Ethernet controller: HighPoint Technologies, Inc. Device 1211
20:42<Onceuponaban>According to lspci: "HighPoint Technologies, Inc. Device 1211"
20:44<mome>Can you try lshw -C network
20:45<bremner>you'd need to have lshw installed. That might be tricky without a network
20:45<Onceuponaban>lshw is not on the iso.
20:45<mome>Onceuponaban: Yeap you right.
20:45<Onceuponaban>At least, not available in the shell.
20:45<Onceuponaban>...strangely enough, neither is apt...
20:46<Onceuponaban>(not that it would have helped without network connection)
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20:48<Onceuponaban>Is there a higher chance that the DVD iso has the driver that I need? (the iso I have is the cd image)
20:48<sarnold>wb Onceuponaban, the last we saw from you was "(not that it would have helped without network connection)
20:49<Onceuponaban>that's what I last sent. Anything I missed between then and me reconnecting as Onceuponaban_ ?
20:49<mome>Onceuponaban: I think we need more accurate information about your ethernet card.
20:49<sarnold>Onceuponaban: no, you didn't miss anything
20:50<sarnold>Onceuponaban: even going through all the git changelogs in the easily available linux history shows only disk controllers
20:51<Onceuponaban>One thing that I know for sure is that the driver must have existed at some point within the ones that come with the install iso because it used to work.
20:51<mome>Onceuponaban: Is that all the output from lspci | grep -i eth ?
20:52<Onceuponaban>Yup, that's the full input.
20:53<Onceuponaban>I will now try and get the DVD iso and attempt to install through it.
20:53<Onceuponaban>hopefully that image has the driver
20:54<blast007>which DVD? just going from netinst to DVD1 isn't going to add drivers
20:54<sarnold>I think you'd be better served going back in time, finding older releases; even this repo has the same 45 commits.. (which seems too few, but..)
20:55<mome>Onceuponaban: Good Idea
20:55<sarnold>"Github doesn't seem to actually use the grafts in the web interface. So you can't search for commits prior to the grafts for example." -- ah. that explains that. sigh.
20:56<Onceuponaban>Wait, the dvd iso doesn't have more drivers than even the netinstall iso?
20:57<Onceuponaban>In that case I'll try to save time and get the netinstall iso for the last debian version that was on the usb stick I used (in this case 9.5)
20:57<Onceuponaban>If the driver is on that one, at least I'll have identified the driver I need and go from there
20:58<Onceuponaban>If not, I'll try again with Debian 8, because I'm pretty sure I used that version at some point while messing around with the machine
20:58<Onceuponaban>and while I ran into issues, none of them were "the iso doesn't have the network driver on it)
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21:08<bremner>more likely about drivers being dropped from the kernel
21:08<bremner>out of tree drivers are relatively rare in linux
21:09<Onceuponaban>Just to be sure
21:09<bremner>firmware is a different question, but I guess the older the hardware, the less likely firmware is the issue
21:09<Onceuponaban>If the driver is available, the network card would be detected regardless of whether an ethernet cable is plugged in or not, correct?
21:10<Onceuponaban>If the driver being dropped from the kernel IS the issue, where would I go from there?
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21:12<bremner>get a new network card?
21:12<bremner>I really don't know how likely it is that a driver is dropped.
21:12<Onceuponaban>Now that I think about it
21:13<Onceuponaban>Right next to that computer is another old (but much more recent, I think it's from early second half of the 2000s), maybe I can just pull the network card from that one
21:13<Onceuponaban>(especially since the computer in question is dead)
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21:14<Wylel[m]>Worth a shot
21:15<Onceuponaban>actually it doesn't seem like the card is separate from the motherboard on that one...
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21:16<Onceuponaban>Yeah, Ethernet port is sitting right next to the USB ports
21:16<Onceuponaban>that can't be a separate card
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21:21<Wylel[m]>I have one sitting literally next to me unopened that I would hand to you lol
21:21<Wylel[m]>I have had this thing for years
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21:23<mome>Onceuponaban: It is too difficult to take a look at the hardware side? some part number or chipset name?
21:24<sarnold>you know that era of systems
21:24<sarnold>it's going to be at *least* one sliced finger to open that thing up :)
21:24<Onceuponaban>I could attempt
21:25<Onceuponaban>IIRC there's one convenient button to get the case opened up
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21:28<mome>Onceuponaban: It doesn't seem to me this guys from HighPoint Technologies, Inc. manufactured Ethernet cards.
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21:35<Onceuponaban>apparently there are two plastic tabs I have to press, and while they are pressed apply overwhelming force on the CD drive to pull the case open
21:35<Onceuponaban>what could possibly go wrong
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21:36<annadane>the sun could explode and everyone could die
21:37<mome>Onceuponaban: Don't fear, apply all your force.
21:37<mome>Onceuponaban: It will no break.
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21:41<Onceuponaban>here's our mystery network card:
21:42<mome>Onceuponaban: Realtek
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21:43<mome>That's old.
21:46<blast007>mome: where are you getting Realtek from that image?
21:47<sarnold>mome: nice
21:47<sarnold>gts fc515ls on google is all realtek
21:48<sarnold>Onceuponaban: try a blind modprobe 8139cp and modprobe 8139too. I'd be surprised if either work just like that, but those are the 'easy to find' module names..
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21:49<mome>Model: DFE-530TX+
21:50<sarnold>$ git grep -i DFE-530TX
21:50<sarnold>drivers/net/ethernet/dlink/sundance.c: {"D-Link DFE-530TXS FAST Ethernet Adapter"},
21:50<sarnold>hmmmmmm. TXS vs TX+ .. and wrong maker entirely, but who knows with these funny things :)
21:53<rwp>Sometimes it just isn't worth it to chew the restraints. One might contemplate replacing that network card with a different one that is known to work with newer kernels.
21:53<Wylel[m]>you had me at "and everyone could die"
21:54<mome>What about to try firmware-realtek ?
21:54<blast007>the FC-515LS is not the ethernet controller chip on that card
21:58<Onceuponaban>if that helps, here's the other side of the card:
21:58<mome>blast007: Is EN5038a the chip.
21:58<blast007>mome: yeah
21:59<rwp>Does this system have USB? Do you have a USB network or wifi adapter? One might try plugging a USB network adapter in and using it to get on the network to make debugging this network card problem easier.
21:59<Wylel[m]>looks to be COMPAQ
22:00<Onceuponaban>The computer is indeed a Compaq Deskpro EX
22:00<Onceuponaban>I MIGHT have a wifi adapter, not sure
22:01<blast007>I'd suggest looking for a less obscure network card
22:01<mome>Onceuponaban: try to install firmware-realtek. I think you can just download it from
22:02<rwp>I have been surprised by how reliable USB network adapters have been for me.
22:02<rwp>Expected them to have problems. But they have generally been very reliable for me.
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22:03<mome>Onceuponaban: Step back with the link, look the one according to your debian version. OK. Sorry :)
22:04<rwp>As an aside... If one were going to make a long term existence of being offline there is always the "apt-offline" package to make offline installs and upgrades work using sneakernet.
22:07<blast007>rwp: I'm not sure the system in question even has USB 2.0, so usb networking might not be a great option :)
22:07<Onceuponaban>USB 2.0 is definitely not there, this is an USB 1.0 machine
22:09<rwp>blast007, Bummer! Then perhaps a different network card? Good luck!
22:10<rwp>If I had a USB 1.x system I might try USB network adapter anyway. I think it might work. It would be slow. But performance for a temporary hack to get on the network to make installing additional packages easier regardless of needing to wait a moment for the download.
22:11<sarnold>(this machine'll never have *fast* networking..)
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22:14<blast007>I remember using a USB network adapter on my old Pentium III as I had the 3 PCI slots occupied with a GPU, sound card, and a dialup modem. It worked enough for sharing my dialup connect to other PCs, but it had major issues when I took it to a LAN party. :)
22:15<rwp>sarnold, I don't know about that. "Fast Ethernet" is only 100 Mbit/s for the most part. 100BASE-TX such as Intel PRO/100 Fast Ethernet PCI card.
22:17<blast007>or you can get Intel gigabit PCI cards off ebay for $10
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22:20<mome>Anyway, it will not be a fast machine in general.
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22:23<rwp>I wonder how it would benchmark against a Banana Pi or even a Raspberry Pi...
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22:26<Onceuponaban>I downloaded the realtek firmware deb and put it on a second USB drive that I plugged into the other USB port. However choosing to "load missing drivers from removable media" yields "No kernel modules were found".
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22:29<rwp>Onceuponaban, The firmware .deb file contains the driver file but is not in a format recognized as a driver file.
22:29<rwp>Try installing it instead. Something like: dpkg -i firmware-realtek_20161130-5_all.deb
22:31<rwp>That will install the firmware files in /lib/firmware/... and then be available for loading from the expected location.
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22:31<Onceuponaban>dpkg is not available in the shell
22:31<dpkg>Onceuponaban: parse error: dunno what the heck you're talking about
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22:32<rwp>Run as root? Such as from "sudo" or otherwise to be root?
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22:33<Onceuponaban>no sudo either
22:33<rwp>I don't think it is possible to have a Debian system without dpkg installed.
22:33<Onceuponaban>And the shell is run as root anyway
22:33<blast007>Onceuponaban: this is in the installer, right?
22:34<blast007>!firmware images
22:34<dpkg>Unofficial <netinst> and DVD images containing non-free Debian <firmware> packages are available from
22:34<rwp>If it is in the installer then the binary files need to be extracted from that .deb and placed where the installer can find them.
22:34<blast007>!installer firmware
22:34<dpkg>Debian-Installer is able to load additional <firmware>, by including it within installation media or supplying on removable media (e.g. USB stick, floppy). See . To include firmware within Debian <netboot> images, see . See also <firmware images>.
22:34<rwp>Using the iso above which includes them is much easier
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22:34<blast007>(you can try the instructions there to load the firmware, or you can try the other installer image)
22:39<Onceuponaban>I already attempted using that image (well, the i386 one) but it didn't work.
22:41<mome>Onceuponaban: Did you complete the Debian installation first?
22:41<Onceuponaban>Given that this is a netinstall image, no.
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22:47<mome>Onceuponaban: Using a different image as blast007 suggested?
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22:48<Onceuponaban>the image in question IS the one that blast007 suggested
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22:50<mome>Onceuponaban: Are you i386 or amd64?
22:51<Onceuponaban>i386 (I adjusted the link to match the architecture)
22:51<Onceuponaban>(was the amd64 architecture even a thing back when this computer was made?)
22:52<mome>Right. Just to make sure. What is from 2000?
22:52<rwp>I can't imagine this machine being a 64-bit amd64 architecture system. Likely only 32-bit i686 architecture.
22:53<mome>I just didn't want to say straight that the link was pointing to amd64.
22:54<Onceuponaban>I'm going to get the cd iso and install debian offline, without a gui (since the only one I could get with the iso is XFCE and that's probably too heavy for this machine)
22:54<Onceuponaban>Maybe having an actual OS on the machine will help solving this
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22:56<mome>Onceuponaban: I can confirm that image has the firmware-realtek
22:56<twb>on buster (and bullseye), what's the least awful way to have /tmp be a well-secured tmpfs?
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22:57<twb>Because the systemd tmp.mount file kept moving around and I lost my temper and started just using /etc/fstab
22:57<twb>Does "systemctl enable tmp.mount" work yet
22:57<Onceuponaban>So, I assume whatever is in firmware-realtek isn't the driver I'm looking for?
22:58<blast007>Pentium III is definitely a 32-bit processor :)
22:58<blast007>it's not a realtek card
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22:58<blast007>the search results that they found were just for a realtek card that happened to use the same ethernet transformer component
22:59<blast007>the card you have is pretty obscure
22:59<Onceuponaban>Guess I'll just install the OS offline and then attempt to find a network card for which there ARE drivers somewhere
23:00<Onceuponaban>I have a vague memory of my dad finding a random network card's package at some point
23:00<Onceuponaban>might be worth looking into
23:00<mome>Onceuponaban: Try to install it offline. That's a good idea.
23:00<twb>Are you trying to install Debian 10 onto a Pentium III system?
23:01<Onceuponaban>I am.
23:01<twb>Cool. ISA or PCI?
23:02<Onceuponaban>Unsure. How do I tell them apart?
23:02<twb>===> systemd: /usr/share/systemd/tmp.mount
23:02<twb>sigh. It's still installed in a stupid non-standard location
23:03<twb>Onceuponaban: ISA is bigger I guess?
23:03<Onceuponaban>Oh, right, I have to give a name to the machine.
23:04<Onceuponaban>I think it's PCI, looking at reference pictures
23:05<mome>Onceuponaban: What about SoFi?
23:07<mome>Onceuponaban: Because it doesn have WiFi maybe?
23:07<twb>Onceuponaban: call it "expensive-paperweight" :-)
23:07<twb>or maybe "boatanchor"
23:08<Onceuponaban>boatanchor it is
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23:10<twb>WTF, tmp.mount now has do things like... yeah OK, things like systemd-timesyncd have an *implicit* dependency on tmp.mount due to PrivateTmp=yes
23:10<twb>So most of your system is now implicitly blocked on the swap drives ALL being ready
23:14<Onceuponaban>How would you rate the chance of plugging my phone into the USB port and activating tethering working?
23:14<mome>twb: You can mask tmp.mount if you want.
23:14<twb>mome: tmp.mount doesn't exist in systemd's path by default
23:14<twb>mome: i.e. I can't enable (or disable or mask it) until I first copy it into /lib/systemd/system or /etc/systemd/system/
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23:17<Onceuponaban>Also I know exactly how big the HDD is, now
23:17<Onceuponaban>20 whole gigabytes.
23:19<twb>Debian needs ~300MiB. More for GUI. You can get it down to about 50MiB with custom filesystem and device-specific kernel.
23:19<mome>twb: tmp.mount is most likely for linux embeded systems?
23:20<twb>mome: what makes you say that?
23:20<Onceuponaban>Having a device-specific kernel sounds like a recipe for disaster the second you upgrade your machine.
23:21<twb>Onceuponaban: correct
23:21<twb>Onceuponaban: it's not hard to do, it's just tedious
23:21<Onceuponaban>Although I guess a user who would bother doing that would see it coming before the upgrade and adjust their kernel accordingly.
23:21<twb>Onceuponaban: basically boot a generic kernel and run "lsmod", then on the build host, do "make localyesconfig LSMOD=./lsmod.txt"
23:22<twb>and then re-do that every time there's a security advisory for the kernel
23:23<Onceuponaban>Meanwhile the install process is at the "Configuring linux-image-[version]-pae (i386)" step
23:24<Onceuponaban>...A Pentium III doesn't support PAE, does it?
23:24<blast007>it does
23:25<twb>I know the Soekris net550 board doesn't, to my extreme annoyance
23:25<blast007>"PAE is supported by the Pentium Pro, Pentium II, Pentium III, and Pentium 4 processors."
23:25<twb>(It had the <4GB RAM soldered on, IIRC, but it meant I couldn't run a generic kernel)
23:26<blast007> (also Pentium M, and probably newer stuff in 32-bit mode)
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23:30<Onceuponaban>The installer seems to be suffering from glitches, should I be worried?
23:30<Onceuponaban>graphical glitches, specifically
23:32<blast007>that's.. interesting
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23:33<blast007>I'd let it just keep going and see if it works in the installed system
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23:35<Onceuponaban_>...It appears my router has flat out crashed for some reason
23:37<twb>Onceuponaban_: the artefacts you are seeing are a font issue
23:37<twb>Onceuponaban_: how much RAM does this system have?
23:37<twb>IME you need 256MB to run Debian and 512MB to install Debian reliably.
23:38<twb>Therefore, do the install from another host
23:38<twb>(NB: I did not test in-between sizes, and I was testing Debian 9, and I was testing on a 64-bit architecture)
23:40<blast007>I'd just let it install and worry about memory if it fails
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23:45<Onceuponaban_>oh hey I can get back my username now
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23:45<Onceuponaban>>unpacking firefox-esr
23:46<Onceuponaban>yeah for some reason I don't think I'll be using that one
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23:46<twb>Onceuponaban: yeah uh you didn't do an expert mode so "install gnome" is ticked
23:46<Onceuponaban>Well, XFCE in this case
23:46<Onceuponaban>not that it'll help
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23:47<Onceuponaban>I thought toggling XFCE off when prompted would have prevented it from installing XFCE. Clearly not.
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23:59<twb>Onceuponaban: oh, hrm, I didn't think it even prompted for that
---Logclosed Thu Oct 03 00:00:29 2019