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#debian IRC Logs for 2020-09-13

---Logopened Sun Sep 13 00:00:58 2020
00:01<sney>just ran it on my vps and it reported the bios vendor as "seabios" and the chassis manufacturer as "qemu" so I guess that's what a standard guest would see.
00:02<sney>getting results like ami and gigabyte means dmidecode is talking to the hardware bios
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00:03<nvz>well seems to me like when its off you get a kernel message "kvm: disabled by bios" one or more times
00:03<nvz>when its on, I see nothing that says its on
00:03<nvz>so if lscpu shows virt extentions and you have no message like that in journalctl -k then its probably on
00:03<October>would that be in dmsg?
00:04<nvz>journalctl -k is safer dmesg outputs a buffer
00:04<nvz>journalctl -k wont get the messages pushed out due to buffer size
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00:06<nvz>I tested this on my Dell Opti 780 USFF with Intel Core2Duo E8400 which supports Intel VT-x and when its on in the bios I see no mention of kvm, but when its off I get "kvm: disabled by bios" in journalctl -k
00:07<nvz>only amd machine I have here and its not hooked up is this thin client with an AMD G-series SoC
00:07<nvz>it /does/ have amd-v
00:07<nvz>but I assume it'd be the same deal.. lscpu will tell you if CPU supports it and kernel can tell you if the bios has it disabled
00:08<October>lscpu says: Virtualization: AMD-V
00:08<nvz>yeah, that shows the CPU has support for it
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00:08<nvz>in my test just now it showed the VT-x there even when it was disabled in bios
00:09<nvz>journalctl -k | grep -i kvm
00:10<October>sudo journalctl -k |grep kvm ... Sep 08 17:50:49 debian kernel: kvm: Nested Virtualization enabled ... Sep 08 17:50:49 debian kernel: kvm: Nested Paging enabled
00:10<nvz>if you don't see a message about it being disabled I think its a fair assumption its not
00:10<nvz>none of my machines with VT-x enabled in bios show anything with that command
00:10<nvz>only when its disabled to I see the message that its disabled
00:10<somiaj>could it be some issue with the vbox module? dmesg | grep -i vbox?
00:11<nvz>well vbox usually doesnt even run without it
00:11<nvz>and will complain if the virualization extensions arent enabled
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00:11<nvz>but I dont think it'll run at all without its services and modules loaded
00:12<nvz>unless you mean the guest side modules
00:12<somiaj>someone said eariler, vbox will just use software emulation if hardware emulation is missing and might not say anything
00:12<somiaj>I don't use vbox, so unsure there
00:12<October>dmesg | grep -i vbox ...
00:12<sney>oh, it'll complain, but who reads error messages if you can just click "ok"
00:13<sney>that does look like it's working normally, though.
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00:13<somiaj>October: maybe check the end of dmesg around those points that it seems to be calling the same thing again, are there any other errors in demsg that could signal what the bottleneck coudl be.
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00:13<nvz>October: you should get in a habit of only using dmesg when you wanna see something recent like plugging/unplugging something.. journalctl -k shows messages at boot.. dmesg outputs the kmesg buffer which is a buffer and thus older messages can be pushed out when the buffer is full
00:14<somiaj>yea I need to get use to using journalctl more...:/
00:14<nvz>right after booting if kernel isnt spewing errors like crazy they'd be the same.. but after running awhile or if you have lots of errors, you need to use journalctl -k to get the actual boot messages
00:15<nvz>near as I can tell journalctl -k is the same behavior as the old /var/log/dmesg
00:15<nvz>its a snapshot of the kernel messages at boot
00:15<nvz>wont get messages pushed out based on a buffer size, nor near as I can tell will any be added after boot
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00:16<nvz>took me awhile to figure that out, I was used to /etc/init.d/ doing a dmesg > /var/log/dmesg kinda deal at boot prior to systemd
00:17<nvz>now it seems journalctl -k is the same thing
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00:18<nvz>October: I'd maybe try lowering the specs on the vm.. you seem to be giving it all you got
00:18<October>journalctl -k and dmesg seem to be saying the same thing when I grep vbox
00:18<nvz>October: that says you only have 8 cores and you said you gave the vm all of them.. do you also only have the 8gb ram you gave the vm?
00:18<nvz>I usually only give my vms a single core and a fraction of my ram
00:19<October>I had oricinally gave it 2 CPU's and it was slow, so I gave it 4... my CPU has 4 cores and 8 threads
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00:19<nvz>linux doesnt really differentiate between cores and threads from the userland pov
00:19<nvz>it will say you have 8 cores
00:19<archer>linux doesnt like built in gpus either
00:20<October>system monitor says I have 8 CPU's
00:20<archer>yah, silly threads fuck you userland
00:20<nvz>but if the host isnt sweating and the vm is, it may be because you gave too much to the vm
00:20<nvz>afaik any ram you give the vm is locked to the vm itself
00:20<sney>I'm pretty sure the AMD FX-8xxx series have 8 actual cores. that's what the 8 is for, natch. hyperthreading is intel's thing.
00:21<sney>and indeed, # of CPU Cores: 8
00:21<October>so if I gave it 4 CPU's that should be happt then... but apparently something is goofy
00:22<nvz>well my fathers machine recently crapped out and he says he found a gaming rig someone threw out.. and I'm in there right now via ssh, it has a AMD FX-6300 and says 3 cores, 2 threads per core
00:22<sney>that should be more than enough. I have very similar hardware and I can spin up a debian guest here with practically nothing. you have a bottleneck somewhere and giving the guest more resources isn't a real solution.
00:22<nvz>which while I'm in here I need to have a closer look at this machine cause I think some idiot put 16GB ECC ram in a machine that neither supports ECC nor 8GB ram cards.. heh
00:23<archer>sney, youre asking the wrong questions
00:23<archer>stop challenging hardware to be met with software that makes efficiency run at 100%
00:23<archer>spend 10$ less get a smaller hdd and use some computing disciplines
00:24<sney>archer: that has nothing to do with what's going on here
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00:24<archer>its exactly whats happening
00:25<archer>youre trying to do something outside your fucking realm
00:25<archer>spell it out
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00:25<archer>you are trying to do A and B is happening but i want C
00:26<archer>check the pride at the door
00:26<sney>I'm not trying to do anything other than help October narrow down what the problem is.
00:26<nvz>cause my father told me when he said he took his hdd out of his machine that wont turn on anymore and put it into this one he snagged out of the trash that it had 16GB ram, and I looked and Debian says it only has 8GB, and furthermore the motherboard shown in dmidecode only has two slots supporting max 4GB each, and he says he looked inside and the ram cards say 8GB on them.. and his kernel messages say this
00:26<archer>sney, then aim my previous comments at October :D im seriously willing and able to help tho
00:26<sney>having to give a basic linux VM 4 cores and 8 gigs before it will behave is an indication of a deeper problem.
00:26<nvz>which I think means some dipstick put two 8GB ECC modules in a board that only supports 2 4GB non-ecc modules
00:27<nvz>which I /thought/ would render a machine unbootable :P
00:27<nvz>but it sure as crap is booting, cause I'm accessing it remotely over the internet :P
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00:28<nvz>I never seen those kinda errors before, so I am guessing the kernel is trying to load them cause its seeing ECC ram and trying to enable ECC
00:28<somiaj>archer: your signal to noise ratio is a bit low, if you can help do so, but no need to just add noise.
00:28<archer>nvz, have you tried to just toss it in the trash and apply a thick ass layer of dad go fuck yourself here you go?
00:28-!-mode/#debian [+o somiaj] by ChanServ
00:28-!-archer was kicked from #debian by somiaj [you should know better]
00:28-!-mode/#debian [-o somiaj] by somiaj
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00:29<archer>somiaj, much is appreciated thanks
00:29-!-mode/#debian [+o somiaj] by ChanServ
00:29-!-archer was kicked from #debian by somiaj [you should know better]
00:29-!-mode/#debian [-o somiaj] by somiaj
00:29<sney>you might need to actually +b
00:29<nvz>idk what he did to his machine, he'd just bought that Dell 7010 SFF not long ago, now he says the power light just flashes on it.. I find it all suspect that his machine randomly dies and he randomly finds another just out in the trash somewhere
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00:30<nvz>it all seems to be working, but the fact that it seems to have incompatible ram in it worries me a lil
00:30<archer>hayzeus, i only chip in with some kiss thanks for the left and right parameter somiaj
00:30<blast007>there was a class action lawsuit that included the FX-8370 about false advertisement with regards to core counts.
00:30<nvz>I suspect whatever idiot built this couldnt get windows to boot on it in this condition and just threw it away
00:30<nvz>and linux just doesnt care that its not right
00:31<October>blast007: I saw something that said my CPU had 4 cores... some software or something... can't remember what it was
00:32<nvz>October: lscpu will tell you
00:32<October>oh... it was phoronix-test-suite
00:32<nvz>as I said the FX-6300 in this one says 3 cores, 2 threads per core, and htop shows 6 CPUs
00:33<nvz>I am just baffled at how this machine is supposedly working and linux says it has 8GB ram when it would appear from here that it has 16GB ECC ram which the Gigabyte GA-78LMT-S2 mobo dmidecode reports, doesnt support
00:33-!-mode/#debian [+o somiaj] by ChanServ
00:34-!-mode/#debian [-b *!*@] by somiaj
00:34-!-archer was kicked from #debian by somiaj [you should know better]
00:34<nvz>in my experience you put the wrong ram in a machine it wont even get to the bios screen cause it wont be able to shadow bios to ram and post
00:34-!-mode/#debian [-b *!*] by somiaj
00:34-!-mode/#debian [+b *!*] by somiaj
00:36<sney>October: anyway, if the cpu's vt bits are enabled, try installing iotop and running it while the guest is running, and see if that provides any new clues.
00:36-!-mode/#debian [-b *!*] by somiaj
00:36-!-mode/#debian [-b *!*@0002a4b*] by somiaj
00:36<blast007>nvz: supposedly all of the bulldozer FX chips support ECC, though board support may be a different story
00:37<sney>I haven't used vbox in a couple years, but I just re-tested a debian 10 guest under virt-manager and it ran perfectly smoothly and didn't slow anything else down.
00:37-!-mode/#debian [-b *!*] by somiaj
00:37-!-mode/#debian [-b *!*] by somiaj
00:37-!-mode/#debian [-b *!*] by somiaj
00:37-!-mode/#debian [-b *!*] by somiaj
00:37-!-mode/#debian [-b *!*] by somiaj
00:38-!-mode/#debian [-b *!*] by somiaj
00:38-!-mode/#debian [-o somiaj] by somiaj
00:39<sqrt{not}>nvz, fwiw: stretch box with uptime 36days give this summary from journalctl -k: -- Logs begin at Thu 2020-09-10 18:16:15 MST, end at Sat 2020-09-12 21:17:36 MST. --
00:40<sqrt{not}>and contains only six lines, documenting a USB device coming and later going
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00:42<nvz>sqrt{not}: thats a lil troubling, this machine has been up 25 days and goes all the way back to the boot
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00:42<sqrt{not}>maybe because it's stretch version of systemd, I dunno.
00:43<nvz>ah maybe
00:44<October>sney: 13549 be/3 user 6.43 K/s 151.02 K/s 0.00 % 0.15 % VirtualBoxVM --comment Debian Test --startvm 135d5ebf-8a60-42d9-ba8f-f0b5215e28a4 --no-startvm-errormsgbox [AioMgr0-N]
00:44<somiaj>nvz: do you ahve peristant journal enabled?
00:45<somiaj>don't know if that is an issue, journalctl should be keeping some logs in memeory, but maybe there is a tool that cleans things up after a while.
00:45<October>my HD light is always on and almost never blinks
00:45<sney>October: well, watch the output and see how it changes while the vm is under 'load'
00:45<nvz>sqrt{not}: ugh.. my other laptop has been up 92 days and also goes all the way back to boot, but this server I irc from is up 27 days now and only has two lines in it despite the timestamp of logstart being Aug 23
00:45<nvz>these are all buster machines
00:45<nvz>I thought I had a f'n handle on this :P
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00:45<sney>hd lights don't mean much
00:46<nvz>now I'm not so sure I can rely on journalctl -k at all
00:46<October>the VM ins right now installing Gnome... VERY SLOWLY
00:46<sney>is the rest of the system still working normally or do you get lag in the host OS too?
00:46<October>no lag on host OS
00:46<sqrt{not}>somiaj: that's probably it, my journald.conf doesn't have that, and is all commented
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00:47<October>host OS is also Debian
00:47*nvz checks the server vs the laptops
00:47<somiaj>nvz: for what it is worth, 15 days here and it seems my logs in both dmesg and journalctl -k are identical
00:48<somiaj>sqrt{not}: Well comment is the default, but if you don't create /var/log/journal (and do one other thing) it won't actually make the logs
00:48<nvz>somiaj: its /etc/journald.conf right?
00:48<sney>October: ok, I feel pretty comfortable blaming virtualbox.
00:48<somiaj>nvz: for persistance, check for /var/log/journal
00:48<somiaj>I thought persistant was between boots, but maybe journalctl starts to prune logs if they get to long
00:48<somiaj>(unsure on that)
00:49<somiaj>note systemd logs almost everythign to /var/log/syslog as well, but that gets rotated fairly regurally
00:49<sqrt{not}>right, no /var/log/journal here either. I should just dist-upgrade this box, and then turn it on
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00:50<somiaj>mkdir -p /var/log/journal && systemd-tmpfiles --create --prefix /var/log/journal -- that is needed if you want persitant journalctl logs between boots
00:50<somiaj>as to why sqrt{not} log isn't even showing all info in their current boot, I don't know
00:50<nvz>somiaj: yeah neither this machine nor the server have a /var/log/journal nor any uncommented lines in /etc/systemd/journald.conf other than the [Journal] header
00:50<nvz>somiaj: yet one the logs go all the way back to boot, the other it doesnt.. so idk
00:51<nvz>they're both buster machines.. just one is a laptop with a DE the other is a headless server
00:51<somiaj>the comment will contain the defaults, which I belive is auto on the persitant journal, which means it only makes it persistant if that directory exists
00:52<somiaj>but I think this is a different issue than the current running system not having all the logs (but persistance would probably help with that I would think, since it uses hd space for the logs)
00:53<nvz>idk but I thought persistence was only really a matter of retaining logs across boots, I was just seeking to for support purposes know how to get an equiv of the old /var/log/dmesg that was created by /etc/init.d/ by doing a dmesg > /var/log/dmesg at boot
00:54<nvz>cause I bitched a lot about this until I found journalctl -k and thought I had an answer
00:54<somiaj>does adding a -a help at all, journalctl -a -k?
00:54<nvz>now I have my doubts :P
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00:55<somiaj>what is the output of journalctl --disk-usage (how much data is the journal actually using?)
00:56<nvz>somiaj: Archived and active journals take up 38.2M in the file system.
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00:56<sney>my desktop, media server, and (32-bit) monitoring appliance have 3.8G, 80M, and 440M in journals respectively.
00:57<somiaj>there are ways to set a limit to amount of space used, and then old logs get trimmed, but I can't seem to figure out what the debian defaults are.
00:57<October>Here is what Phoronix Test Suite v9.8.0 says about my CPU: PROCESSOR: AMD FX-8370 Eight-Core @ 4.00GHz ... Core Count: 4 ... Thread Count: 8
00:57<somiaj>but with 3.8G, seems the dfault max is quite high, so I don't nkow what else could be trimming the logs
00:58<sney>this machine has been upgraded a lot so it's possible there's an old-testing high default in there somewhere
00:58<sqrt{not}>I get the same output from journalctl -a -k (the one USB event from yesterday). and: Archived and active journals take up 38.4M in the file system.
00:58<nvz>somiaj: yeah well thing is that paste is from my server, up 27 days as you can see.. my main workstation (laptop) has been up 92 days and goes all the way back to boot, as does this laptop up 25 days.. and the server shows logs begin on Aug 23.. yet I only have a single line from Aug 23 and one from Sep 01
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00:59<somiaj>the only default I see in journalctl.conf is RuntimeMaxFiles=100, but I don't see any settings for max file sizes
00:59<nvz>sqrt{not}: its a lil suspect how close in size our outputs are.. yours is also ony two ines and 32.4 and mine is 38.2M
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00:59<sney>huh, I guess mine is a "fake" 8-core too. still won't make a practical difference for a basic vm, though.
01:00<nvz>sqrt{not}: is your machine a normal desktop system with a DE?
01:00<nvz>sqrt{not}: cause the only machine I got doing this is the server I run irc client from.. my laptops with DEs arent doing this
01:00<sqrt{not}>yes, normal stretch (+backports) desktop,, with gnome
01:01<somiaj>"Defaults to one eighth of the values configured with SystemMaxUse= and RuntimeMaxUse=, so that usually seven rotated journal files are kept as history."
01:01<somiaj>ag not that, hmm
01:01<somiaj>outside of the 100 file limit, I don't see any defaults set on the limit before journalctl starts deleting old logs
01:05<somiaj>does journalctl --verify show all the logs passing its test?
01:06<nvz>somiaj: well I think I may need to reiterate for you that the machine in question has been up 27 days, log starts at Aug 23, only two lines showing in the kernel message portion.. one from Aug 23, and one from Sep 01..
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01:06<nvz>well Aug 23 wasnt 27 days ago was it.. it was more like 20 days ago
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01:06<somiaj>"By default, systemd-journald ensures older journal records or journal files are deleted in order to keep a certain amount of disk space free." -- that is about the best I can find on default, might depend on memeory/disk ussage how many older logs systemd keeps around.
01:07<somiaj>but I can't really find what the settings are set as by default.
01:08<somiaj>but it is a combination of settings that configure how much space the logs will take up, and as sney outputed, 3.8G of logs, they can take up a lot of space, but might depend on resoruces available. They are stored in the tmpfs /run
01:08<nvz>yeah, the verivy shows all logs pass
01:08<somiaj>nvz: is /run filling up on that system?
01:09<nvz>Aug 23 where logs start was about 20 days and what like 20hrs ago.. uptime says its been up like 27 days
01:09<nvz>I oubt it the machine has two 3tb drives /me looks
01:09<sqrt{not}>I have 8 files in /run/log/journal, all the same size: 5038080, and timestamped in the last 36 hours
01:09<somiaj>well /run is a tmpfs, so it is based off of memeory, not disk size
01:10<nvz>tmpfs tmpfs 383M 41M 342M 11% /run
01:10<nvz>11% isnt exactly running out of memory.. its nearly empty :P
01:11<sqrt{not}>tmpfs 393468 40972 352496 11% /run
01:11<somiaj>but if it uses amount of space vs perecent, but I can't really find any clear info about what the defaults are, except you can configure this with the Runtime* settings.
01:11<sqrt{not}>(output of df -k)
01:12<somiaj>it could also be it has cleared out the logs that were taking up a lot of space (maybe a service blew up) and the kernel logs got taken out too due to the age.
01:12<nvz>tmpfs tmpfs 383M 41M 342M 11% /run
01:12<nvz>tmpfs tmpfs 768M 58M 710M 8% /run is the mahine that shows the whole log
01:12<nvz>has 8GB ram as opposed to 4GB ram
01:12<somiaj>but journalctl will auto delete old logs of /run starts to fill up (there is some combination of settings that control this, and it likes to leave a minimum amount of space avaialbe for other thigns)
01:13<nvz>and the /run seems to be double in size
01:13<somiaj>at least that is the info I am finding, but not fiding any excat numbers as to when it starts to clear files out
01:14<sqrt{not}>like I said before, i should just dist-upgrade and turn on the correct persistent journal keeping. at this point it is only intellectual curiosity here, and I'm off to naptime
01:14<somiaj>so peristant logs will help here, since it will write this to disk (though it also has rules about when it cleans up the disk space, but this is a different set of settings)
01:14<nvz>well idk but I got two thinkpads and an emachines desktop here I'm speaking of.. the emachines is the server with 27days uptime showing only 2 lines in journalctl -k dating back only 21 of the 27 days up.. and the two thinkpads up 25 and 92 days respectively are going all the way back
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01:15<nvz>and they all have the same default settings
01:15<nvz>yet one of these is not the same :P
01:15<somiaj>one of those could just be producing more logs, prompting journalctl to clean thigns up
01:15<sqrt{not}>this box does get crunched for free ram sometimes though
01:15<somiaj>so the reason -k is short is not due to kernel logs, but total logs
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01:17<nvz>yeah.. well as previously discussed the server which is the one missing like 6-7 days is only using 38.2M was it? the laptop which has been up 2 days less and has logs all the way back is using up 56M in archives and active journals
01:17*nvz checks the other one up 92 days
01:18<somiaj>though I think the problem is we are seeing the result of what happened after journalctl has cleaned things up, and not why, wonder if journald logs why it removed stuff
01:18<nvz>that one has 3.9G in logs :P
01:19<sney>the 5.8G was rebooted just this evening when I was checking what the AMD VT extension was called in the bios
01:19<nvz>my only concern with this is not /my/ logs.. its that I was relying on telling people to journalctl -k as though it were as good as the old /var/log/dmesg for support purposes when we need more info
01:19<nvz>and that doesn't seem to be reliably the case like I thought
01:20<somiaj>well looking at systemctl status systemd-journald -- I get "Warning: Journal has been rotated since unit was started. Log output is incomplete or unavailable."
01:20<nvz>cause often for support purposes we need to check boot messages, and as is doesnt seem like debian any longer reliably keeps these by default
01:20<nvz>which is what infuriated me months ago before I thought I found the answer
01:21<nvz>now sqrt{not} has made me realize thats not the case :P
01:21<somiaj>nvz: I would just enable persistant logs, so that way you have more space to store things (than memeory) and don't get hit by journalctl rotating logs
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01:22<nvz>somiaj: again I'm not concerned about me.. I'm a user of many years.. I can manage and do these things.. I'm concerned that for our purposes here as supporters, not having a reliable means to access the boot messages on ALL DEBIAN SYSTEMS that we encounter issues with on here
01:22<nvz>an if this is the case we need to fix this crap :P
01:22<nvz>it needs to by default keep the damn messages from boot
01:22<nvz>like it used to with /etc/init.d/
01:22<nvz>for _everyone_
01:23<nvz>it used to run that script right before login, and that script at the bottom did dmesg > /var/log/dmesg
01:23<nvz>which preserved the messages from the current boot
01:23<nvz>so we could then ask our users.. hey.. did ya see any of _foo_ in your boot messages
01:24<nvz>now we seem to have no reliable way to do that
01:24<nvz>and that bothers me
01:24<nvz>anything that makes our system less supportable bothers me as a long time supporter here and on freenode :P
01:24<somiaj>yea, to me it is more a curiousity to better understand what systemd-journald in debian is doing, and why.
01:25<nvz>I rather not have things be more aggrivating for us as volunteer supporters
01:25<nvz>well when I have those curiousities I got to #systemd or email Biebl
01:25<nvz>that doesnt concern me so much
01:26<nvz>what I want is for us to not be going backwards in terms of supportability
01:26<nvz>and we used to as I said, have a very simple init.d script very simply dumping the boot messages to a file on every boot
01:26<nvz>now near as I can tell we have no equivalent
01:26<nvz>thats a step in the WRONG direction
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01:27<nvz>which needs to be rectified
01:27<nvz>I dont care how they do it, as long as its addressed
01:27<nvz>for all I care they can have a unit that does the same as did
01:27<nvz>as long as in the future this is the norm across all our users
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01:28<nvz>and now I'm feeling like this is above my paygrade and I need to run this up the ladder :P
01:29-!-mode/#debian [+l 693] by debhelper
01:29<nvz>am I wrong in thinking that for support purposes we need a reliable way regardless of how long a system has been running, how much the logs have been hammered, if the disks have space or not, or regardless of user config, that all our users should have access to what happened at the last boot?
01:30<nvz>to me this seems like critically important information
01:30<nvz>and I think its clearly an oversight if we used to have this prior to adopting systemd and now we dont
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01:31<diogenes_oftc>nvz, file a bug.
01:31<nvz>an oversight that need be addressed
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01:32<nvz>diogenes_oftc: you think just filing a bug against systemd would be appropriate?
01:33<sney>that is how you uh, run something up the ladder, as you say
01:33<diogenes_oftc>nvz, what else? you gonna threaten then with a water gun?
01:33<nvz>yeah but systemd is still largely a mystery to me, idk about the proper way to file a bug against one of its components, haven't done it yet
01:34<nvz>diogenes_oftc: heh
01:34<sney>the maintainer(s) will reassign it to a more specific package if that's necessary
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01:36<nvz>I do feel that its the change to systemd that caused us to ditch the as it just did a bunch of misc crap that systemd was believed to address
01:36<nvz>this bit however seems to have been an oversight
01:36<sney>I agree it was probably just lost in the shuffle without a specific decision to keep or discard it
01:37<sney>now it's up to you to help the systemd team un-lose it
01:37<nvz>yeah, I'll shoot em a simple email explaining the issue and concern and they'll probably want more information
01:37<sney>is there a reason you're reluctant to use the bts for this?
01:38<nvz>na, it was my intent to use the bts.. and thats how I do it.. via email :P
01:38<sney>carry on, then.
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01:38<nvz>I just thought the issue was resolved.. I thought journalctl -k was the answer until sqrt{not} had chimed in
01:38<nvz>then I checked all my systems and found one doing the same thing :P
01:39<nvz>now I'm back to being infuriated that we've lost a key piece of info for support purposes
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01:40<nvz>sqrt{not}: out of curiousity what was your systemd version on this system?
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01:42<nvz>cause honestly looks like my server is still on 241-7~deb10u2 while the other two systems are not
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01:53*nvz awaits a reply from the bts
01:57<nvz>ah, right, judd doesnt see things right away... takes a bit longer for judd to find bugs for some reason
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01:58<nvz>probably cause the actual bts website doesnt show it immediately when you get the ACK email
01:59<nvz>no, its showing on the BTS already.. kernel boot messages are not longer reliably kept by default
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02:23<October>does QEMU have a GUI? My Debian VM is STILL installing Gnome after 3 hours!
02:24<October>it's a Virtualbox VM
02:24<nvz>yes, it does
02:24<nvz>,i virt-manager
02:24<judd>Package virt-manager (admin, optional) in buster/amd64: desktop application for managing virtual machines. Version: 1:2.0.0-3; Size: 884.9k; Installed: 6770k; Homepage:; Screenshot:
02:24<nvz>there is also gnome boxes or w/e
02:25<nvz>there are numerous frontends
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02:25<nvz>one thing I didnt like having tried it on this machine considering switching my vbox vms is that I didnt readily see a way to do the kind of dynamic disks vbox does
02:26<nvz>but reason I was considering switching was to be able to automate building of vms more consistently and simply and put them all in one location and access them from any machine
02:27<nvz>virt-manager is pretty straightforward and not much unlike virtualbox
02:28<October>well... my Virtualbox Debian Gnome install just crashed and Debian shutdown and the VM closed all by its self. UGH!
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02:29<October>I was installing Gnome with tasksel
02:30<nvz>yeah I've never seen that and I been using it a long time
02:30<nvz>I like to keep a VM of each DE handy for support purposes so I can try reproduce issues
02:30<sney>I've seen vbox drag but only with super slow disks, or with vt-x disabled (but we covered that)
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02:33<October>my HD light was on solid the whole time
02:33<October>BUT iotop didn't seem to say it was super busy
02:33<sney>sounds like the disk itself may be the bottleneck
02:33<sney>try with virt-manager and see what happens, though
02:34<October>I have my main OS on the same disk and don't have any issues with it
02:35<October>nope it's a regular old school HD
02:35<sney>yeah, so if it's thrashing back and forth to run your OS and another, virtualized OS, that explains why the light was constantly on.
02:36<sney>a modern disk should still be able to manage that, though.
02:36<October>I've had it about 2 years... only been using it for about 1
02:36<October>it was something to do with the VM.. I'm installing virt-manager right now in the main OS and it's going along smoothly
02:37<sney>yes... we won't know the answer until you are actually virtualizing something with virt-manager.
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02:37<October>well... I'll try installing debian with that soon as I figure out how to use it... never used it before
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02:39<sney>it's pretty straightforward, and they have a website where they seem to think these screenshots will answer any questions you have.
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02:39<sney>since you've used vbox before, it's most of the same things, with somewhat different menu organization. it has wizards. you'll be fine.
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02:40<October>ok cool... How do I tell grub to not resume.. I reformatted my swap partition to ext4 because I have 32 GB RAM
02:41<sney>it should proceed with a normal boot after failing to resume
02:41<October>do I have to reboot to get it to work?
02:42<October>...the virt-manager
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02:42<sney>no, it'll just go
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02:43<October>error message from installing virt-manager ... W: initramfs-tools configuration sets RESUME=UUID=blah blah...W: but no matching swap device is available.
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02:44<dpkg>Yerp, lots of software outputs warnings. Kernel module warnings on boot, mplayer warnings, GTK warnings, X11 warnings, build warnings, gpg warnings. Don't be scared - informative output is a GOOD THING. Consider yourself warned, and if the program works as expected, be happy.
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02:44<sney>the W means warning.
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02:46<jerome>Can someone help me out building chkdsk on debian?
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02:46<jerome>cloned from github
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02:47<jerome>how id build chkdsk on debian ?? what tools do i need
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02:49<somiaj>jerome: does their docs tell you what libaries are needed, install the libfoo-dev package of the libaries (and build-essential) -- this is assuming it doens't need something like go/rust/etc
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02:51<jerome>heres the source link
02:51<jerome>its windows chkdsk
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02:53<somiaj>what makes you think windows chkdsk compiles on linux?
02:53<somiaj>what do you really need to do?
02:54<jerome>I need it for some iso stuff
02:54<October>sney: one question... In the New VM wizard, it says virtual network defaul NAT (inactive) should I change that?
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02:56<somiaj>jerome: what iso stuff? you aren't going to be able to compile windows tools on linux (unless they are built to compile, which I dobut this is)
02:56<jerome>what tools do I need do I. I tried msbuild and xbuild . it doesn't have any .nuget file
02:57<sney>October: iirc it'll ask you if you want to start the network later in the wizard. there may be more details on as well. sorry, it's been a minute since I've done first-time setup.
02:57<jerome>do I need old dos tools?
02:57<sney>jerome: it's still not clear what you're trying to do.
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02:58<sney>there are some ntfs utilities in the ntfs-3g package, if you're dealing with an old disk image, but idk since we need more details
02:58<jerome>I am trying to build chkdsk from source
02:59<sney>for what
02:59<sney>see, this is a Makefile for windows.
03:00<sney>the source isn't for linux. and it hasn't been touched in a decade. it'd be a lot of work to port this.
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03:00<jerome>mostly for for educational perpuse
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03:00<sney>what's your actual project? is this a detour or the real goal?
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03:01<jerome>real goal
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03:02<sney>jerome: alright, well, good luck. I recommend talking to the ntfs3g people. this isn't something an irc channel can just tell you how to "build". I'm not even sure where you would start.
03:02<jerome>So how do I build from that makefile which doesn't support gnu make or does it??
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03:03<sney>you have to port the program to linux. this is windows source. for an OS-specific utility.
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03:04<jerome>so I need to install mingw runtime first ?? how do I start doing that ? I have installed microsoft repo on debian
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03:05<jack__>install fail
03:06<sney>jerome: this isn't something that will work if you just install things and try to run 'make'
03:06<somiaj>jerome: this is something that you probably aren't going to find much support for here, and I'm unsure where a good place to get support for porting software from windows to linux.
03:06<sney>jerome: this is old code, for a different operating system.
03:06<somiaj>there could be a lot of work, requring a lot of knowldge about how coding and building works (with it appears you dont have much of)
03:06<sney>step 1: get really good at C
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03:07<nvz>what I don't understand is why you are trying to compile chkdsk on linux in the first place.. we have utilities that do the same thing designed for linux, and yyou can just compile this if for whatever reason you're hell bent on doing so.. on windows, reactos, or some kinda system that it was made for
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03:07<sney>jack__: please paste your error messages to or similar and link here
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03:09<sney>jerome: do not private message people without asking. keep all questions in the channel. and nobody can magically help you compile a windows program on linux.
03:10<jack__>ok 马上
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03:10<dpkg>如果您想要以中文得到 Debian 相關的協助,請加入 或 上的 #dot 頻道,連線與加入頻道的方法請參閱 IRC 程式之相關說明,或於網路上搜尋。謝謝您的合作!-
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03:12<jack__>E: 无法定位软件包 libjasper1
03:12<jack__>E: 无法定位软件包 libjasper-dev
03:12<dpkg>Do not paste more than 2 lines to this channel. Instead, use for text: | pics/screenshots: or | large files up to 100MB (think tar.gz): or | Remember to tell us the URL of your paste! Cannot cut and paste? Ask me about <pastebinit>, <nopaste>, <termbin>.
03:12<nvz>!localized errors
03:12<dpkg>To provide command output in English instead of your native language, set your locale to an English one (e.g. C) prior to running the command, e.g. "LC_ALL=C apt-get -f install".
03:12<sney>!localized errors
03:13<nvz>,v libjasper1
03:13<judd>Package: libjasper1 on amd64 -- jessie: 1.900.1-debian1-2.4+deb8u3; jessie-security: 1.900.1-debian1-2.4+deb8u6
03:13<somiaj> localized errors --- lost that race
03:13<nvz>something tells me they are not using debian
03:14<nvz>cause what they've said so far is "raspberry pie" "right away" and "cannot locate package"
03:14<nvz>and as judd shows the package in question is only in jessie
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03:15<nvz>,depends opencv
03:15<judd>No package named 'opencv' was found in buster/amd64.
03:15<sney>,depends opencv-data
03:15<judd>Package opencv-data in buster/amd64 -- depends: .
03:16<nvz>yeah its not even clear what they're trying to install but its probably not any sort of any bit recent debian package
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03:17<sney>probably lost, following a 4-year-old howto, with a random derivative distro
03:18<sney>everyone who thinks they can reinvent the debian wheel (but better this time!) should be forced to spend a day in the shoes of someone like this
03:18<nvz>yeah its kinda sad there doesnt seem to be much help for the chinese with these things as they're the ones who make em for the most part :P
03:18<somiaj>could it be deepian?
03:18<somiaj>anyways, just guessing here.
03:18<sney>possibly. deepin, I think
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03:20<jerome>Is there chkdsk debian port that already exist ??
03:21<nvz>not to my knowledge
03:21<nvz>nobody is concerned with 40 year old code
03:21<nvz>we have dosfstools fsck.vfat
03:22<somiaj>jerome: what is your actual goal?
03:22<nvz>,i dosfstools
03:22<judd>Package dosfstools (otherosfs, optional) in buster/amd64: utilities for making and checking MS-DOS FAT filesystems. Version: 4.1-2; Size: 96.1k; Installed: 235k; Homepage:
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03:22<somiaj>if you want to work with ntfs filesystem, use windows. but there are some decent tools for vfat.
03:23<nvz>if you /want/ to work with ntfs on linux and windows.. I personally say you need to create the fs using linux..
03:23<somiaj>I guess I don't keep up with ntfs support in linux, but with fuse read/write, I'm still told if you need to check the file system use windows.
03:23<nvz>cause I made the mistake of filling up a new preformatted ntfs usb hdd for a guy and it started to get corrupted as it got near full, but after formatting it using debian tools, it went fine
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03:24<nvz>probably some new features that were not reverse engineered properly :P
03:24<nvz>or at all
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03:25<sney>jerome: there is ntfsfix, which is in ntfs-3g, which I told you about already. the man page says it is not chkdsk, but it fixes common ntfs problems, so that sounds close enough.
03:25<nvz>yeah well I wouldnt do ANYTHING more than reading NTFS under linux unless linux made it
03:26<jerome>ntfsfix cant fix udf i/o error
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03:26<Natureshadow>jerome, fsck?
03:27<jerome>doesn't work.
03:27<somiaj>udf i/o error? Is this on a dvd?
03:28<nvz>IO errors are not filesystem errors
03:28<nvz>they are device errors
03:28<nvz>in my experience
03:30<jerome>no is a usb
03:31<jerome>last time this happend windows fixed it. but my current pc is non intel windows is impossible to install tried even windows xp
03:31<nvz>you might want to explain wth you're doing.. cause it may be a simple issue
03:33<zleap>what is meant by non intel do you mean non x86-32 OR X86-64?
03:33<nvz>means everything else not made by intel
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03:34<somiaj>i/o error sounds more like there is a problem with the usb drive vs the file system on it.
03:34<zleap>Even AMD
03:34<nvz>yes that or you're trying to read as UDF what the system thinks is fat
03:34<nvz>because you improperly made the UDF
03:35<somiaj>even then wouldn't the error be more along the lines of error in the file sysytem vs i/o. I'd first look at dmesg and get the exact error
03:36<jerome>I am certain chkdsk will fix this again . And its not the entire disk just a folder
03:36<dpkg>deepin is a Chinese distribution <based on debian>. It is not supported on #debian. Try their forums at or #deepin on
03:36<nvz>jerome: as somiaj says IO errors arent raised by filesystem level errors.. one thing chkdsk always did as I recall is also low level bad block detection
03:37<nvz>we also have a seperate program for that
03:38<nvz>jerome: badblocks is part of the e2fsprogs package which you likely already have
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03:39<nvz>the traditional approach for utilities in the rest of the world is to do one thing and do it well.. which is why fsck and badblocks and such are seperate utils
03:39<nvz>as I recall from ages ago when I used and supported windows, they combine these
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03:41<nvz>furthermore while I haven't tried it.. if chkdsk is in MSDOS, freedos, reactos.. etc.. would stand to reason you can just grab an already compiled version of it and run it in dosbox or something
03:41<nvz>if you're really set on that for some reason
03:41<nvz>but to me this feels more like an X Y problem going on here
03:42<somiaj>sounds like a dvd drive is dying, and somehow chkdsk "fixed" it in the past, or at least made it temporary usable.
03:42<sney>I think we're deep into the beginning of the next alphabet tbh
03:42<nvz>they are using udf on a thumbdrive from what it sounds like.. which some people do for lawd only knows what reason
03:42<somiaj>arg usb drive
03:43<sney>when I asked if building 15-year-old chkdsk on linux was the real goal, and they said yes,
03:44<sney>I wonder if they can even see the top anymore.
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03:44<October>what grub file do I edit to pass commands to the kernel?
03:44<sney>usually /etc/default/grub
03:44<sney>and then run update-grub after saving
03:45<October>that is what I was seeking.. thanks
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03:47<jerome>so can I fix this issue with dosbox ??
03:48<sney>what issue?
03:48<sney>what was the first thing you tried to do, before the error
03:48<jerome>Install chkdsk
03:48<somiaj>I think you need to identify what the issue is, if the usb drive is going, I doubt dosbox will do much.
03:48<jerome>on linux
03:49<sney>no, *first*. before there was a disk you needed to check.
03:49<jerome>in dosbox ??
03:49<jerome>install chkdsk in dosbox??
03:49<jerome>to fix the disk
03:49<wgreenhouse>the question is what were you trying to do with the usb drive before it errored
03:49<sney>what disk?
03:50<jerome>sorry I meant usb .
03:50<sney>what's on the usb?
03:51<jerome>Mainlly in want to install chkdsk to fix a i/o error
03:51<sney>wow, it's like a circle. ok, you won't tell us you're trying to restore your boss's backup that you lost, or whatever
03:52<jerome>my files
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03:53<somiaj>jerome: could you give us the output of dmesg at showing the actual i/o errors you are getting?
03:53<jerome>dmesg output : [15875.244818] kauditd_printk_skb: 235 callbacks suppressed
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03:58<nvz>you can try badblocks, or try ruling out disk failure if possible by trying to low-level copy the entire disk using dd.. just a few ideas
03:58<nvz>I highly doubt IO errors are raised by the filesystem itself
03:58<sney>or try a bootable WinPE thing (google it)
03:59<somiaj>I second that, I would copy that file system (if possible) locally. I think it was just coiecendence that chkdsk "fixed" this issue last time for you, and that your drive is slowly might have prolonged it life.
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04:04<nvz>yes well as I said I believe chkdsk integrates a badblock scan
04:04<nvz>which can mask and appear to fix actual hardware issues
04:05<nvz>we have badblocks which does roughly the same thing
04:05<nvz>but easiest way to know if thats the problem is to ignore the FS altogether and just go low-level
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04:05<nvz>dd if=/dev/sdc of=sdc.img or something like that
04:06<nvz>if that has the same issue, its definitely the drive
04:06<nvz>you just have to have enough disk space to hold the entire volume
04:08<jerome>I actually tried this . and mounted the iso and It gave the same error
04:09<wgreenhouse>then it's the media, not the FS
04:10<wgreenhouse>you can try using ddrescue to copy it to disk, retrying on errors
04:10<wgreenhouse>but do that immediately
04:10<wgreenhouse>the media is failing, you should copy it off before attempting further recovery
04:10<somiaj>our suggestions didn't ask you to 'mount the filesystem', we said use a tool to copy the disk data directly
04:10<somiaj>if you aren't able to do that, the drive is quite dead and maybe as nvz has said multiple times badblocks can help.
04:11<somiaj>(though that is out of my expreience)
04:11<jerome>can one creat dos environment nativelly on linux ??
04:12<jerome>by downloading and installing source of msdos ??
04:12<wgreenhouse>there is freedos. msdos is proprietary
04:15<jerome>what do I need to compile freedos makefiles
04:16<nvz>jerome: you could install a virtual machine like virt-manager or virtualbox and run some form of dos/windows
04:16<nvz>and you can attach a usb device to a virtual machine
04:17<nvz>but my next suggestion after the low-level type things before going to the VM would probably be to reconsider your methods from square one
04:17<nvz>and perhaps consider not using this method or filesystem if its creating such a need for such ridiculousness
04:18<nvz>there is vfat, exfat, ntfs, and of course a plethora of well supported native filesystems to linux like ext2/3/4 and such
04:19<nvz>usually, as I said before about an X Y problem.. when someone is doing something that seems very difficult is because they took a wrong turn based on poor assumptions early on
04:20<somiaj>jerome: this is debian, we don't support freedos, you should probably take this else where if your goal (which we think is not what you should be doing) is to install/use freedoss
04:20<nvz>which is why we all tried to pry out of you what you are actually doing so we could perhaps find a better approach based on things you may not know
04:20<jerome>low-level type ?? using live freedos or winPE ??
04:20<jerome>or using badblock ??
04:20<nvz>the low-level things were doing a dd or using badblocks.. to address possible issues with the disk itself
04:21<somiaj>we don't support freedos or various windows issues, if that is what you want to use, you need to get support elsewhere.
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04:22<jerome>so do I have to pipe badblocks output to fsck ?? or just running badbloks will do the trick ??
04:22<nvz>badblocks is only going to help find out if you have disk problems, the same as a dd would
04:23<nvz>I'd have gone back to square one a long time ago.. I dont know what kind of pursuit led you to having UDF on a thumbdrive to begin with, but it reminds me of Bugs Bunny poppin up out of the ground and sayin "I knew I should've taken that left turn at alberquerque"
04:24<wgreenhouse>UDF on a thumbdrive suggests a DVD image written to a thumbdrive
04:24<nvz>yes well, whatever they are doing, there is probably an easier way
04:24<zleap>i write iso files to a thumbdrive for instalers with no problem
04:25<zleap>or usb flash drive ,what ever they seemto be called
04:25<wgreenhouse>sure. but chkdsk is certainly the wrong tool in that case. it's not ntfs or some windows filesystem
04:26<zleap>iirc chkdisk was for dos so FAT16/32 filesystem(s)
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04:27<jerome>maybe because the partation table is msdos ??
04:27<zleap>iirc DOS didn't read that many if any other file systems
04:27<jerome>sometimes It turns into readonly and I need to run ntfsfix on it
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04:28<zleap>i remember a program called norton disk doctor
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04:47<jerome>its taking forever to scan with badblocks
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05:24<October>I'm still trying to install Debian in my virtual manager VM... This time, I having an error with the network.. Here is the error and an explanation of what is going on:
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05:30<jerome>I use qemu-kvm to run vms
05:30<jerome>qemu-system-gui is a gui vm
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05:32<jerome>How do u run freedos on qemu-kvm x86_64 is not working its a vmdk image
05:33<October>virtual manager is a GUI for QEMU-KVM I'm totally new at running a VM with it... I did the new VM wizard and told it what I wanted. Everything was working great during Debian install until I got to the part where it asked me about using a network mirror
05:34<October>My host OS is also debian buster
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05:35<jerome>install the package qemu-system-gui and qemu-kvm .
05:36<jerome>cd to the directory of iso run kvm <iso name >
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05:37<October>it says all that is already installed
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05:38<jerome>run this command : qemu-system-x86_64 -m 4G /path/to/the/iso
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05:41<October>WARNING: Image format was not specified for 'debian-10.5.0-amd64-netinst.iso' and probing guessed raw. Automatically detecting the format is dangerous for raw images, write operations on block 0 will be restricted. Specify the 'raw' format explicitly to remove the restrictions. qemu-system-x86_64: Initialization of device ide-hd failed: Block node is read-only ... The ISO is debian-10.5.0-amd64-netinst.iso
05:42<jerome>change the parmission of the iso to the current user
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05:43<October>it has read access to the file. it is an ISO, why does it need to write to it?
05:44<jerome>sudo chown -R $USER /whole/path/where/the/iso/is
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05:47<October>It didn't ask me to make a disk image and it is complaining that it can't find the CD-ROM drive when I'm using an ISO in my HD
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05:49<nvz>October: did you choose "local install media"? or did you maybe choose "import existing disk image"?
05:50<nvz>cause sounds to me like you did the latter and it thought the ISO was the hdd image you wanted to use
05:50<October>all it did was boot the ISO image... it didn't ask me anything
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05:50<nvz>when I open up virt-manager I click the new button I get a 5 step wizard
05:51<jerome>just follow this site
05:51<nvz>the first question is choose how you would like to install the operating system
05:51<October>I ran: qemu-system-x86_64 -m 4G debian-10.5.0-amd64-netinst.iso
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05:52<October>all that command did was boot the ISO
05:52<nvz>wth would you do that if you're using virt-manager
05:53<October>because jerome told me to do that
05:53<jerome> add -hda /path/to/the/.vdi/file
05:53<nvz>October: there are absolutely no commands to be ran
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05:53<nvz>you install virt-manager, click on it in your menu.. it has a gui just like virtualbox
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05:54<jerome>If u don't have a virtual box file just create one with command : qemu-img create /path/to/the/iso/debian.vdi 10G
05:55<October>nvz: I did the new VM wizard and told it what I wanted. Everything was working great during Debian install until I got to the part where it asked me about using a network mirror ... then I got this error:
05:55<android18>Hi! I wanted to build my own KDE live iso with live-build. I succeeded but the image isn't working with UEFI? Also, how are the official live images generated?
05:56<android18>I simply executed this: lb config -b iso --cache true --apt-recommends true -a amd64 -d buster --binary-images iso --debian-installer live --mode debian --debian-installer-gui true --archive-areas "main contrib non-free" --security true --win32-loader false --interactive shell --updates true
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05:58<jerome>Is there a way to build a live iso from current running operating system with xorrios??
05:58<nvz>,i bootcd
05:58<judd>Package bootcd (utils, optional) in buster/amd64: run your system from cd without need for disks. Version: 5.14; Size: 96.5k; Installed: 380k
06:02<nvz>jerome: ^ that was for you btw
06:02<October>I like to run live ISO from SDXC cards
06:02<nvz>bootcd as I recall not only puts a running system into a live but the live back onto a system
06:03<nvz>October: yeah well unless you're gonna be changing hardware significantly the live probably isnt the way to go
06:03<nvz>just install to the media
06:04<nvz>makes it easier to make persistent configuration changes
06:04<nvz>the utility of a live is to make something that boots anywhere and is always fresh as a daisy
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06:04<nvz>if you just want a removable system, just install like normal with the removable media as the hdd
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06:06<October>I was curious, is there a way to instlal onto the media within debian? or do I have to reboot into a CD?
06:07<October>like if I want to start with a fresh install on the media
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06:08<jerome>I someone wants to make his current operating system into a custom distro will bootcd do the work ??
06:08<android18>How are the official debian live images build?
06:09<nvz>I've said about all I can remember about bootcd :P
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06:11<jerome>I actually tried to to make with genisoimage made a squashfs file for my current distro but dont know how to make the iso bootable
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06:13<nvz>the people in #debian-live might go into more detail but the link above contains links to the wiki page and all the information about debian-live project
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06:25<aloo_shu>bootcd is looking like it's ancient, but could do the trick for at least a bootable live cd, the intsller with it seems stuck at grub 1 days, and may not support uefi
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06:34<jerome>bootcd installed syslinux why does it needs syslinux
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06:36<aloo_shu>to boot
06:37<aloo_shu>syslinux/extlinux/isolinux are a family of bootloaders
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06:39<jerome>ow It installs syslinux on the iso not grub. Is that it ?
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06:49<jerome>badblocks finished scanning nothing changed i/o error is still there
06:49<jerome>How does one remove a i/o error folder
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06:50<jerome>badblocks finished with no output i/o error is still there. how do I delete the folder ????
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07:02<Rotonen>where'd the 'firefoxdriver' packages for the selenium web drivers disappear to? one can still find references through search engines, but everything seems to be a 404 and i'm not spotting a changelog entry either
07:04<Rotonen>i found the changelog - oddly enough the upstream geckodriver is maintained, so did the debian side of maintenance drop? or am i just wrong?
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07:07<bremner>Rotonen: it was dropped from stable for one reason, then dropped completely for dependence on python3
07:07<bremner>err python3
07:08<October>,i python3
07:08<judd>Package python3 (python, optional) in buster/amd64: interactive high-level object-oriented language (default python3 version). Version: 3.7.3-1; Size: 60.1k; Installed: 187k; Homepage:
07:08<Rotonen>neither selenium or that piece of software depend on python 2 - sounds like a packaging issue at that point
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07:09<Rotonen>the same maintainer seems to maintain the package for the python wrapper for selenium in debian, so maybe the link somehow comes through there?
07:09<bremner>I guess the maintainer did not respond to the series of python2 related bugs in the 6 months or so leading to removal
07:10<Rotonen>sounds fair
07:10<Rotonen>but practically i'll roll my own container as fixing debian in this regard is not something i can fit into the scope of what i'm doing
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07:27<October>nvz: did you look at my error messages:
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07:38<jmcnaught>October: "virsh -c qemu:///system net-autostart default" will make that network start automatically at boot to avoid that error. In the virt-manager GUI you can also start the network (double-click on the QEMU/KVM connection to see its details, virtual networks tab, play button below network list, set auto stat on boot from there too if you want).
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07:52<linux77>a greta hug cool friends, here is a good time to say g/morning ut i known itś not used , also excuse off topic!, realy debian community is an excelent work! very thanks!
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07:53<linux77>s/greta/a great!
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09:38<gribouille>smartctl --scan says I must use the option -d scsi for all my three disks ; smartctl -i /dev/sdb says that the drive is SATA. is it normal?
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10:02<cacatoes>gribouille: same here, not sure about the explanation though
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10:04<gribouille>cacatoes, you mean you have the same problem?
10:06<jhutchins>You're doing a passive scan. Try it and see what you get.
10:06<gribouille>jhutchins, I did it
10:07<jhutchins>gribouille: Meaningful results?
10:07<gribouille>jhutchins, what command should I type?
10:11<dpkg>The smartmontools package provides the smartctl and smartd utilities, used to control/monitor devices supporting "Self-Monitoring, Analysis and Reporting Technology" built into modern ATA and SCSI hard disks. After installation, read /usr/share/doc/smartmontools/README.Debian for initial configuration and upstream recommendations.
10:12<jhutchins>gribouille: It's to complex a tool for me to explain line-by-line.
10:13<sqrt{not}>man 8 smartctl has a section "ATA, SCSI command sets and SAT" which talks about when this matters
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10:13<gribouille>jhutchins, I don't want you to explain it line by line, I just need to know the value to the -d option
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10:23<gribouille>sqrt{not}, I've already read it, but it is not very clear
10:23<gribouille>I if juse the wrong value for -d, can it harm the disk?
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10:25<sqrt{not}>nvz: systemd version here is 241-5~bpo9+1
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10:52<sqrt{not}>gribouille: what kind of disk is this ? unless it is some old IDE (parallel ATA command set) disk drive, which it clearly isn't if smartctl says use "-d" then you are probably fine without using either and -d parameter
10:52<sqrt{not}>I mean without using any -d parameter.
10:54<sqrt{not}>if smartctl says use "-d scsi" (my typing will improve after more caffeine)
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10:59<gribouille>sqrt{not}, I used -d ata. is it right?
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11:07<shawn_>anyone in munich
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11:09<jhutchins>shawn_: Several thousand people I would guess.
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11:10<jhutchins>1.472 million according to Google.
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11:19<linux77>hey cool friends, i have some trouble here, i follow the steps of online documentation to create a dummy interface for vms, in one box running testing all works fine, i made the same on this box but not work, any can help? thanks!
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12:07<linux77>hey friends, any can help, iface virbr10-dummy is working but virbr10 no, any can gimme a tip about?
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12:33<sdvd>Is there a way to know which compiler was used to compile the binary
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12:43<somiaj>sdvd: for what package? I belive you can go look at the buildd logs
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12:52<dvd>is there a way to know what compiler was used to creat a certain binary
12:52<sqrt{not}>gribouille: no, I think "-d ata" is exactly wrong if it told you to use "-d scsi"
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12:56<sqrt{not}>gribouille: again, I ask what kind of disk is this ??? If it is any normal disk, then you probably don't need any -d anything
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12:58<somiaj>dvd: for what package, you can look up the buildd logs on the tracker.
13:00<dvd>There is yum packagemanager on debian repository can one install rpm from centos repository
13:01<dvd>Mainly I am trying to figure out a binary of what compiler it was used to build as it doesnt run on debian
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13:09<somiaj>dvd: we can't really support third party packages, I could point you at the build logs for debian packages, but that won't work here.
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13:19<sqrt{not}>sdvd: maybe there is a debian version of whatever program you are looking for ?
13:19<somiaj>also seems odd to me why you want yum on debian.
13:20<sdvd>I dont know maybe there is . Is there any tool that shows what compile the binary was create with
13:20<somiaj>you won't be able to install .rpms directly that way, though there is alien (seems debian provides an rpm package too)
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13:20<somiaj>sdvd: XY problem here, why are you wantting yum in the first place.
13:21<sdvd>I want yum/rpm for the reason above
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13:21<grummund>Can the netinst cd be used to repair after a windows installation has clobbered the mbr?
13:22<somiaj>hmm, I guess there is yum in debian, though if the binaries you are downloading binaries built for a different system, they may not work due to libary issues.
13:22<dpkg>To reinstall <GRUB> boot to your Debian install disk/live CD, switch to the other console (Alt-F2), mount your root filesystem (mount -t ext4 /dev/whatever /target ; mount --bind /dev /target/dev ; mount -t proc none /target/proc ; mount -t sysfs none /target/sys), chroot into it (chroot /target), run "mount /boot/efi" on EFI and "update-grub && grub-install /dev/whatever". See also <rescue mode>, <dual boot guide>, <supergrub>.
13:22<somiaj>grummund: ^^ yes
13:22<somiaj>sdvd: the question is what package to you need an .rpm for? I personally would build from source if it was an option.
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13:23<grummund>!rescue mode
13:23<dpkg>Debian-Installer has a recovery ('rescue') mode, which can be used to reinstall the GRUB or LILO boot loaders. See section 8.6 of the <install guide> ("Recovering a Broken System") for more details:
13:23<sdvd>does allian has library issue ??
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13:24<somiaj>It is still going to run into a similar issue, if a binary isn't built for debian, it may not run on debian.
13:24<sqrt{not}>sdvd: is it a big secret, to tell us what program you actually are trying to run ?
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13:34<BlueWhale>My default PATH set up in $HOME/.profile and $HOME/.bashrc does not mention sbin at all.
13:34<Gerowen>How does one specify a license for a .deb file? I've successfully created my first deb file and installed it, and it works fine, but whenever you open it with the "Software Installer" GUI, it just says "Proprietary" next to the license.
13:35<Gerowen>I've included a copy of the GPL in the install directory, but I'm guessing there's some file or directive I've missed that would specify that for things like the software installer.
13:35<BlueWhale>Is there a good reason why this so, given that there are many useful commands on /sbin and /usr/sbin
13:36<Gerowen>I'm not an authority on the matter, but I've noticed that most of the stuff in /sbin is stuff intended to be ran by root. Some of it can be ran by normal users, but a lot of the stuff in there doesn't work correctly if not ran as root, so I'm guessing that's why.
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13:42<sqrt{not}>BlueWhale: if you are using just "su" to become root, you don't get your path fixed. see this factoid from dpkg:
13:42<sqrt{not}>!buster su
13:42<dpkg>In buster, su no longer overrides PATH by default, requiring that you use "su -" or "su -l" for login shells (which is not really a new thing at all...). To approximate the previous behaviour, put "ALWAYS_SET_PATH yes" in /etc/login.defs. See for details.
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13:50<BlueWhale>I am thinking of even simple queries like: ~$ hddtemp --driverbase --version, just to get some information.
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13:54<sqrt{not}>BlueWhale: that script only has read permissions for root
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13:55<BlueWhale>I did try sudo
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13:57<sqrt{not}>hmm, more than one version of hddtemp exists. which one do you have ? ls -al /usr/share/bash-completion/completions/hddtemp
13:57<sqrt{not}>how did you try sudo ?
13:59<BlueWhale>Your ls command: -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 866 Mar 1 2019 /usr/share/bash-completion/completions/hddtemp
14:01<BlueWhale>I tried ~$ sudo hddtemp --driverbase --version
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14:04<blast007>BlueWhale: and did it say 'command not found'?
14:04<blast007>(also, it's --drivebase, not --driverbase, and using it with --version doesn't make sense since it only shows the version string then)
14:06<sqrt{not}>that is a strange bash-completion file. not a symlink, and no execute permissions for anyone. I don't know what to think
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14:08<BlueWhale>Oops! Yeas the wiki says use sudo -s and that worked fine! Thanks all. Bye
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14:12<blast007>sqrt{not}: how is it any different than other bash completion files? are you thinking of something else?
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14:19<m0th3rsup3r10r>hi i was wondering if i could get help setting up an NFS share
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14:21<Tas-sos>Can I identify a ssh user from SSH key ?
14:22<Tas-sos>All users log in directly as root, but with their own key
14:22<Tas-sos>I can show or see in the system which user it really is?
14:23<bremner>Tas-sos: sure. See gitolite for an example of doing this.
14:24<bremner>ForceCommand is the key
14:24<m0th3rsup3r10r>should i make the server run on static ip?
14:24<sqrt{not}>blast007: I'm just all confused. I quit typing, and go back to drinking coffee
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14:26<Tas-sos>Thank you! Refer to this tool here: ?
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14:27<Tas-sos>bremner: does it provide this possibility?
14:28<bremner>Tas-sos: no, it won't directly solve your problem. It's a perl script that does something similar to authenticate users based on ssh keys
14:29<bremner>and only uses one unix user
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14:31<Tas-sos>My main interest is to write in the history which real user was logged in as "root" and what he did
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14:34<Tas-sos>bremner: ok .. thanks, because it really seems to me a tool that does a lot more..
14:34<Tas-sos>I have no problem installing one more tool on my system, but I was wondering how easy it is to configure something directly on the system and what it takes.
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14:35<Tas-sos>the system from the moment one connects to his personal key, already does not know who it is?
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15:09<sdvd>Whats the different between gcc on mac linux and windows they all say that they are gnu gcc compiler
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15:11<sney>they are, just built for the different platforms
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15:12<sney>windows gcc produces windows binaries, linux gcc produces linux binaries, etc
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15:27<rai>hi, where can i complain about a package being out of date to the point where it hinders its usefulness?
15:27<dpkg>Bug Tracking System for Debian packages, or to go directly to the bug page for a particular package/bug, try or . aptitude install reportbug, and check out <querybts> too. Users of unstable and testing are required to check the BTS. See also <apt-listbugs>, <reportbug>.
15:28<sney>there may already be one for that package, so check before filing
15:28<rai>thank you!
15:31<jhutchins>Tas-sos: Do not allow root login in ssh. That way you'll at least know. Also, if a user becomes root or uses sudo, it's logged.
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15:33<jhutchins>rai: You can _complain_ about it here. Probably won't do much good, but somebody might know of a workaround.
15:34<jhutchins>rai: You can also request that it be backported on the backports mailing list.
15:34<rai>i dont think so, the problem is the package butt being so old it cant even stream to icecast servers which is like its main feature
15:34<rai>and the package is too old in sid
15:34<jhutchins>rai: Which package on which distro?
15:34<sney>yeah if it's too old in sid that's definitely bts material
15:34<jhutchins>rai: That usually indicates a problem upstream.
15:34<rai>0.1.18, latest version is 0.1.22
15:35<rai>built it myself, works flawlessly
15:35<bremner>I for one welcome our new butt maintainer
15:35<rai>what no im scared
15:35<sney> no movement since last december
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15:36<rai>am i supposed to try to package this
15:36<jhutchins>Somehow I doubt I'll find the upstream project for something called butt.
15:36<bremner>rai: first file a bug requesting an update and explaining why it is important
15:36<sney>debian is built on volunteer efforts, rai. and if you've updated the package for your own purposes then you've done a bunch of the work already
15:37<jhutchins>Actually, first find out if it HAS an update available upstream.
15:37<rai>i haven't updated it i tried making an apt package once and i ran away scared, i just built it the old-fashioned way
15:38<blast007>jhutchins: 'apt show butt' has the homepage.
15:38<jhutchins>Oh, you showed the versions above.
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15:41<jhutchins>,v butt
15:41<judd>Package: butt on amd64 -- buster: 0.1.17+dfsg-1; buster-backports: 0.1.18-1~bpo10+1; bullseye: 0.1.18-1; sid: 0.1.18-1
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15:54<dvd>Is there any minimal launcher like slingcold launcher for desktops like openbox lxde??
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16:06<koru>Does anyone know how to get TP-Link TL-WN823N V3 wireless adapter working with debian, my friend is trying to and has been at it for like 7 hours
16:06<koru>We did the commands here
16:07<koru>And have been looking at this
16:07<koru>This seems way too complicated for a usb dongle anyway
16:07<koru>I tried connecting through teamviewer but it just shows a blackscreen. Im on opensuse tumbleweed
16:07<koru>the friend is on debian 10
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16:08<rai>why not just use this which is supposed to automate it all and confirmed works in ubuntu 20.04?
16:08<rai>its the second comment
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16:11<blast007>koru: is firmware-realtek installed?
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16:11<koru>blast007 yes, they claimed so
16:11<blast007>does 'sudo dmesg | grep -i firmware' report that there is missing firmware?
16:12<Fraggle2>koru: i used a similar tp-link adapter for some time with the software from rai's link, it worked well.
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16:13<Fraggle2>finally my internal wifi works with the kernel in testing :)
16:14<koru>oh whoops
16:15<koru>they put the " at the end lol
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16:15<koru>theyre somewhat new to linux so it makes this 100x harder
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16:19<blast007>hmm, yeah, don't see it even mentioning that card.
16:19<koru>rai instead of linux-headers-generic do we use linux-headers-amd64 ?
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16:19<rai>possible no idea
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16:20<koru>well we already tried your link raii
16:20<koru>rai *
16:20<koru>a while ago
16:20<rai>i guess just try the amd64 headers then
16:20<rai>and common
16:20<koru>here is the output from earlier:
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16:22<sazamoracl>Hi, how are you. I hope to not write in the wrong place, but I'm not able to connect to debian-desktop channel. I'm already registered and I'm available to connect here, but for some reason join debian-desktop do not alow me to write on that channel. Could you please helpme with it ?
16:22<sazamoracl>Thank you in advance.
16:23<koru>lsusb shows the device btw
16:23<Fraggle2>maybe you have to register nyour nick? what error message do you get?
16:23<sney>I didn't know that channel existed. are you having trouble with a desktop on debian? you can ask your questions here.
16:24<Tas-sos>jhutchins: I know it is not appropriate to connect as a "root", but in my case of use it is allowed.
16:24-!-thomas123 is "optional" on #oftc
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16:25<Tas-sos>Since (unfortunately for us) it happens, I wondered how I could deal with it.
16:26<Tas-sos>That's why I wonder and research if at least it is possible to know which "root" ssh user has done what.
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16:26<sazamoracl>Hi, yes I'm registered as NickServ ask, validate on the web and changed this nickname. I'm able to connect here, but after join debian-desktop, the client go to channel and its freeze, do not allow to write anything.
16:29<Tas-sos>I see that here "/var/log/auth.log" is recorded in the system as to which user someone is trying to connect with and finally with which ssh key fingerprint was logged in as that user.
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16:32<Tas-sos>Can I e.g. from "/home/root/.ssh/authorized_keys", to record in the terminal history which user is actually logged in beyond their system username?
16:34-!-jnavila [~jnavila@2a01:e0a:d1:f360:cdb7:2d1b:abc5:297f] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!]
16:34<bremner>Tas-sos: yes, as I already mentioned, read up on ForceCommand (or ForcedCommand)
16:34<bremner>but really, this stuff is a bit fraught with peril.
16:35<koru>rai blast007 does that pastebin output say anything for you?
16:35<sazamoracl>@Fraggle2, yes its registered local and web. And identified.
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16:35<sazamoracl>@Fraggle2, the irc client show 'three dots' beside the channel name, only on that channel, here for 'debian' its all ok.
16:36<sazamoracl>@sney, I want to show a debian11 concept for wallpaper and grub : )
16:37<sney>ok. don't @ people on irc, most clients ignore that kind of highlight
16:37-!-hz [] has quit []
16:37<sazamoracl>ok, sorry.
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16:38<rai>well im sorry to tell you it seems like debian-desktop is just dead since i cant join it either
16:38<sney>the channel isn't muted or locked so it's probably an issue with your client. try a different one, like hexchat or irssi
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16:38<sney>I mean, specifically it's #debian-desktop - the # is mandatory
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16:39<rai>yeah, i joined that channel, with the #, weechat just kinda ignored it it seems?
16:39<rai>ah nevermind, i dont have an ident
16:39<rai>i usually have autologin setup so i didnt realize
16:39<sney>there are also only 15 people in there and several of them are bots. it might make more sense to submit your designs on the mailing list, sazamoracl
16:40<sazamoracl>yep, something wrong with the channel.
16:40<sazamoracl>ok, I got it.
16:40<sazamoracl>thank you for the assistance.
16:40<sazamoracl>Just a last question.
16:41<sazamoracl>After 1 month issue, discover an annoying little detail on my cpu. Could I ask you for comments here ?
16:41<sney>is that a support question? yes, that's what #debian is for.
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16:43<sazamoracl>(replicated identical on Debian and Win**10). Ryzen 5 cpu/gpu vega. 7 hours both systems with almost silent or null fan work, just rading web or libreoffice. But ( both systems ) when ac connected, fan starting to work every 5 or 10 minutes independt of video usage ( almost basic ).
16:43<sazamoracl>tlp ok and working
16:43<sazamoracl>cpufreqd, normal, reduced on both profiles to 70% of cpu, all indicator same as battery, BUT
16:43-!-Guest785 is now known as rdo
16:44<sazamoracl>last week I discover this little parameter on gpu 'mclk' , that that that increase on AC charging from 433MHZ to 933MHZ, independent of video usage. So high the temp and fun activity.
16:45<sazamoracl>who send this instruction: lenovo bios or cpu firmware. ?
16:45<sney>if the issue is the same on windows and debian, it's hardware. maybe you need a firmware update.
16:47<sazamoracl>yep, same behaviour, and changing kernel parameter to 'manual' setting mclk to 433 doesnt work neither.
16:47<sazamoracl>I need amd microcode update or bios update ?
16:48<dpkg>TIAS is "Try It And See".
16:50<sazamoracl>: / I understand that we have no control to microcode update isnt it ? Latest bios . Very sad : /
16:50<sazamoracl>Double sad : )
16:50<koru>something else I should mention is that in gnome it doesnt even list an option for wifi, is this normal?
16:50<sney>,v amd64-microcode
16:50<judd>Package: amd64-microcode on amd64 -- jessie/non-free: 2.20160316.1~deb8u1; stretch/non-free: 3.20160316.3; stretch-backports/non-free: 3.20181128.1~bpo9+1; jessie-security/non-free: 3.20181128.1~deb8u1; buster/non-free: 3.20181128.1; bullseye/non-free: 3.20191218.1; sid/non-free: 3.20191218.1
16:51<sney>koru: that means network-manager can't see your wifi adapter or is ignoring it due to other configuration.
16:51<rai>well, if it doesnt see a wifi device why would it display a wifi option
16:51<sazamoracl>judd, Hi, yes I got it, but it works automatically, I mean, I can not force to check updates, It suppose that get the latest updated from amd.
16:52<koru>sney so it only shows up there if there is wifi to be found?
16:52<koru>this is very irritating
16:52<koru>my friend has been at this for 7 hours and even 1 hour of this is driving me insane
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16:53<koru>theyre hell bent on using this dongle since it was a gift
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16:53<sney>sazamoracl: well, ryzen is still pretty new, so maybe there will be an update for you in the future. in any case, not a debian issue since it's also present in windows
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16:54<sazamoracl>sney: yeah yeah I really suspect for that. Not a BIG issue fortunatelly the quick charging finish in less than one hour, so, time for a coffe a active break ; )
16:55<sazamoracl>no problem, all system works great generally.
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16:57<sazamoracl>Thank you for your time. Best Regards.
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16:59<Tas-sos>why it's peril ?
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17:04<bigfluff>Debian Stable + Gnome is like a match made in heaven
17:06<nvz>everyone be careful.. I just puked on the floor by bigfluff :P
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17:08<sney>!start a desktop war
17:08<dpkg>KDE owns you and your dog.
17:08<grummund>It seems in my case the installer 'rescue mode' is unable to help fix the mbr clobbered by windows, or at least not without a lot of effort manually remounting the target filesystem.
17:09<koru>I didnt like gnome at first but took a liking to it. I prefer KDE though
17:09<nvz>grummund: yes, it would need to mount the system in order to be able to rewrite the bootloader.. the configs for said bootloader are on that system
17:10<nvz>grummund: its not really that complicated.. if anything your partitioning scheme may make it a little more work, but if youre using a more flat partitioning scheme its pretty simple
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17:10<koru>The main thing that rubs me the wrong way about gnome is some of the devs attitude and the overly mobile looking design. But its also aesthetically pleasing out of the box and I dont feel compelled to waste time customizing it like kde or xfce or god forbid i3. The workflow took getting used to but I found it pleasing after a while
17:10<grummund>nvz: in my case that would mean reconstructing LVM on LUKS on RAID.
17:10<nvz>grummund: yeah, thats where it gets painful :P
17:11<nvz>grummund: the SHTF scenarious are what kept me away from things like LVM and RAID so long.. its just more stuff to navigate around
17:11<grummund>Is it possible to create a rescue USB stick to boot the existing system knowing that only the mbr was clobbered?
17:11<sney>supergrubdisk might be able to find it
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17:14*grummund thinking out loud... create a partition on the usb stick, grow /dev/md0 which contains /boot to add the usb partition, and then run grub-install on that?
17:14<nvz>this super-grub2-disk thing does say it supports lvm and raid
17:14<nvz>and luks
17:14<grummund>or maybe even just dd copy the mbr and /boot to a usb stick?
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17:17<nvz>it may be worth the try
17:17<nvz>sounds like it supports most any configuration and is fairly automagic
17:17<grummund>yah, ok. i'm also looking at
17:18<nvz>grummund: its only 16M too
17:18*nvz boots it in a vm to see what it does
17:19<grummund>the system *can* be recovered by swapping the raid drives and booting from the intact unclobbered drive.
17:19<grummund>however, getting a dual boot is being elusive.
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17:21<nvz>hmm.. would have to put this on a USB and try it on a system that actually has some kind of lvm/luks on it
17:21<grummund>so i swap the drives, run grub-install to re-instates the mbr. but for reasons i don't entirely understand then selecting windows from the grub menu gets stuck in a boot loop.
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17:23<grummund>debian used to have a "create a rescue disk" option in earlier versions, didn't it?
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17:51<grummund>Well it seems dpkg-reconfigure grub-pc is the magic cure, rather than grub-install.
17:52*grummund now has a dual booting, of sorts.
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17:54<sney>ffr, when windows is doing a "feature update" or similar, disconnect your linux disks so windows can't stick its fingers in the bootloader
17:54<grummund>good point, although this is win7.
17:55<sney>I think I've had to do it with 7 as well, just not as often.
17:56<grummund>i'll look into creating a rescue boot usb, but for now at least it's working.
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21:16<bigfluff>Hello friends! Can someone please point me in the direction of a decent RSS client for Debian/Gnome?
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22:00<join_subline>newsboat - text mode rss feed reader with podcast support | $ apt search newsboat | (As of 2017, the project is no longer maintained; the original developers advise users to switch to Newsboat)
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22:01<sqrt{not}>bigfluff: also see the wiki for rss info:
22:03<bigfluff>thank you, sqrt{not}, really helpful that the debian wiki has this!
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22:22<sqrt{not}>sdvd, dpkg knows about several kinds of linux dvd software:
22:22<dpkg>[dvd] Digital Versatile Disc. To play a video DVD, ask me about <dvd playback>, then use either <totem>, <vlc>, <xine> or <mplayer>. To burn a DVD, ask me about <wodim> or <growisofs>. To download Debian DVD images, ask me about <iso> and <small dvd>. To buy Debian DVDs, ask me about <vendors>. To copy/rip/transcode DVD video, ask me about <dvd ripping>.
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23:00<CyberManifest>I'm trying to build polybar from source and it says I need some dependencies: when I go to try and install them, they don't seem to be found... for instance: sudo apt install cairo ... doing a quick apt-cache cairo search I couldn't figure out which package I needed, can anyone please help me with this?
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23:01<sney>headers for build-deps are in the -dev packages. so for cairo it is probably libcairo-dev or something like that.
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23:02<CyberManifest>sney: thanks, not seeing it:
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23:03<sney>ok, 2 things you're doing wrong: a source header will not be a file called "cairo" and package names are much more useful; -dev packages are arch:all so limiting your search to armhf will not find them.
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23:03<sney> look at the lower left, and compare it to what I said about -dev packages, and you'll know what you need
23:04<fdelapena>for some reason the search mode in contents does not get result. Also, searching for libcairo instead works
23:05<CyberManifest>sney: I don't know about source headers not being called "cairo" I just know that's what it says here: and I agree package names are much more useful (if I knew the names); if -dev packages are arch:all why wouldn't they show in armhf too ?
23:06<sney>because all is a different architecture. a package is arch:all if it contains no cpu-specific binaries
23:06<CyberManifest>fdelapena: which of the many libcairo would I need for my purpose?
23:07<CyberManifest>sney: I understand that but wouldn't all be inclusive of specific archs as well?
23:07<fdelapena>the one with -dev, as mentioned above
23:07<sney>and I don't think you do understand it.
23:07<sney>libcairo2-dev seems to be an exception, arch:any, it probably has some libtool gunk in it or something.
23:08<CyberManifest>sney: weather you think I do or don't isn't pertinent to me actually understanding it.
23:08<sney>'any' is the source arch that gets expanded to amd64, i386, armhf, whatever by the buildds.
23:08<sney>'all' is the one that's just a tarball with some text files in it.
23:09<fdelapena>(or when the whole content architecture independent, e.g. interpreted languages)
23:09<sney>(right, which is still a tarball with text files in it, even if they end in e.g. .rb)
23:10<CyberManifest>so arch agnostic packages can't be seen for arch specific searches, how usefull
23:10<sney>the search assumes you are being specific with purpose.
23:10<fdelapena>it's safer to do an unfiltered search just in case
23:10<CyberManifest>and there in lies the problem assumptions were made
23:11<sney>now, tracker is great for guessing, because if you can figure out the name of the source package or any package from that source, it'll take you to the same page and tell you *all* of the packages that are made from it.
23:11<CyberManifest>fdelapena: so it would seem I need to
23:11<sney>p.d.o is more for looking for something you are already sure exists.
23:13<CyberManifest>sney: from your link I'm confused, I see a lot of unsable and testing and oldstable and amd64 and such I don't see a lot related to buster stable or armhf
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23:14<sney>CyberManifest: if you look in the *bottom left* as I previously said, you will see a list of the packages built from this source.
23:14<sney>if you're looking at package versions you aren't bottom left enough. keep going down.
23:15<CyberManifest>sney: are those packages built from this source arch agnostic ?
23:15<sney>some are and some aren't
23:15<sney>that's typical for any source
23:16<CyberManifest>sney: none of this is proving useful to me
23:16<sney>the name of the -dev package is literally right there in the list
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23:16<sney>remember what we said about -dev packages and building source?
23:16<CyberManifest>sney: I see that libcairo2-dev but it doesn't say if it's arch agnostic
23:16<sney>why on earth would that matter
23:17<sney>it's the -dev package for cairo. your source needs cairo to build. apt install libcairo2-dev.
23:17<sney>then go to the next one.
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23:17<CyberManifest>also clicking on it says it's source is cairo which leads to some packages one named libcairo2 and one libcairo2-dev
23:17<fdelapena>it's not agnostic because in the package details has separated architecture downloads
23:18<sney>amazing, it's the same information again.
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23:19<CyberManifest>fdelapena: so this is what I need: ?
23:19<fdelapena>libcairo2 only contains the .so, and for compiling you need .h and other files (e.g. some tools), which are in the -dev package, because most users are not building stuff.
23:19<CyberManifest>fdelapena: thank you, that is extremely helpful :)
23:19<fdelapena>if you are building for unstable (sid) and armhf, yes, but the best way is downloading with apt as mentioned above
23:20<CyberManifest>fdelapena: I'm building for buster
23:20<fdelapena>apt does security checks for you and downloads for the proper architecture
23:21<fdelapena>unless you want to cross compile something, there are ways to do it with apt, too
23:21<CyberManifest>fdelapena: but didn't you say before I need libcairo2 since libcairo2-dev isn't available for buster?
23:21<CyberManifest>er wait
23:21<CyberManifest>I'm getting confused
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23:21<fdelapena>it is for buster actually
23:22<fdelapena>cairo is old enough ;)
23:22<CyberManifest>fdelapena: but says it's for sid
23:22<fdelapena>well, that link
23:22<CyberManifest>fdelapena: alright I'll try ...
23:23<fdelapena>just try with apt
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23:23<CyberManifest>fdelapena: and so for the rest of those dependencies I'll want to put -dev behind them... so like libxcb-dev and paython-dev and xcb-proot-dev ?
23:25<fdelapena>that's right
23:26<CyberManifest> shows a lot of -dev packages, how do I know which one?
23:27<CyberManifest>and this isn't showing any results:
23:27<CyberManifest>also apt says: E: Unable to locate package libxcd-dev
23:27<sney>if the source readme just said libxcb then it's probably the main one, which is on your first link
23:27<fdelapena>but note debian packages use the library abi soname version number in the package name, like the "2" in libcairo
23:28<fdelapena>suggestion: apt search libxcb
23:29<CyberManifest>E: Unable to locate package libxcb
23:29<fdelapena>libraries names not always prefixed with lib (e.g. zlib)
23:29<fdelapena>I bet xcb is part of xorg or x11 libraries
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23:30<fdelapena>sometimes installing cairo dev may install xcb dev too, check if that's the case
23:30<CyberManifest>xcb is already the newest version (2.4-4.3)
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23:30<CyberManifest>see the is misleading because you don't know what the actual package names will be
23:31<sney>they have to be general in those readmes because not every linux distro names things the same way
23:31<fdelapena>distros not always use official package names for their own reasons (legacy, legal fear, etc.)
23:31<fdelapena>e.g. apache2 instead of httpd
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23:32<fdelapena>kernel instead of linux, and more
23:32<CyberManifest>so for xcb-proto xcb-util-image and xcb-util-wm they're already installed with xcb ?
23:32<sney>the binary components probably are, but you're looking for the headers, remember?
23:33<CyberManifest>sney: right but xcb didn't have a -dev for headers
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23:33<sney>yes it does, on this one. [21:26:02] <CyberManifest> shows a lot of -dev packages,
23:33<fdelapena>in case of doubt, try building first
23:33<sney>you have to scroll down, it's a shorter package name
23:34<CyberManifest>E: Unable to locate package xcb-proto-dev
23:34<sney>it's the second to last package name in the list, before the "other packages" header.
23:35<sney>the reason it's not called libxcb-dev was already explained by fdelapena
23:35<CyberManifest>sney: you mean ?
23:35<CyberManifest>that's not 2
23:35<sney>there you go
23:35<CyberManifest>that's for the older version
23:35<sney>libcairo was 2. this is a different package.
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23:35<CyberManifest>sney: so agian it's useless
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23:36<fdelapena>there are multiple separated packages there, sometimes are distributed upstream separated, and sometimes distros do the separation (or join them) for some purposes, e.g. smaller downloads if they are not needed or smaller updates, etc.
23:36<sney>you have this incredible behavior where we lead you by your nose to the exact answer, and then your response is "no I can't" and you don't even try it
23:36<CyberManifest>gawd this is such a f*ck mess! I should probably look for a snap or something and be done with it
23:37<themill>if only polybar was already packaged
23:37<sney>yes, at this point, that would probably be wise
23:37<CyberManifest>nothing like depenedancy hunting.
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23:37<fdelapena>I find using container stuff (snap, flatpak) even harder
23:37<sney>,i polybar
23:37<CyberManifest>themill: mill it is for backports
23:37<judd>No package named 'polybar' was found in buster/amd64.
23:37<fdelapena>but that seems to be in backports
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23:38<fdelapena>apt -t buster-backports install polybar
23:38<fdelapena>as explained in your link above
23:38<CyberManifest>fdelapena: yes, but I wanted to build it
23:38<fdelapena>that's legitimate
23:38<CyberManifest>but I guess I'll have to change my mind
23:38<themill>if only packages declared their build-dependencies
23:38<fdelapena>there is another way, with apt-source
23:38<CyberManifest>themill: I don't want to fail over and over again
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23:39<CyberManifest>just to discover some names
23:39<themill>then try listening to what people say
23:39<fdelapena>(never tried it, however)
23:39<CyberManifest>themill: I am listening, you underestimate my comprehension
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23:40<fdelapena>instead of building the upstream version
23:40<themill>,builddep polybar --release buster-backports
23:40<judd>Package polybar in buster-backports -- Build-Depends: cmake, debhelper-compat (= 12), i3-wm, libasound2-dev, libcairo2-dev, libcurl4-openssl-dev, libjsoncpp-dev, libmpdclient-dev, libnl-genl-3-dev, libpulse-dev, libxcb-composite0-dev, libxcb-cursor-dev, libxcb-damage0-dev, libxcb-ewmh-dev, libxcb-icccm4-dev, libxcb-image0-dev, libxcb-randr0-dev, libxcb-render0-dev, libxcb-sync-dev, libxcb-util0-dev, libxcb-
23:40<judd>xkb-dev, libxcb-xrm-dev, pkg-config, python3-sphinx, python-xcbgen, xcb-proto.
23:40<fdelapena>other distros (rpm based) have a ismilar way (builddep is called, like that bot call)
23:41<CyberManifest>themill: E: unable to locate package xkb-dev
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23:41<sney>it wrapped, look at the previous line
23:41<fdelapena>apt search -t buster-backports xkb-dev
23:42<CyberManifest>fdelapena: oh, cool thank you
23:44<CyberManifest>themill: so per your ,builddep polybar i3-wm is required? even if I don't wish to use i3 ?
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23:45<sney>it's not a runtime dependency, just a build dependency. dunno why. you could... well, someone who wanted to know the answer could look at the source and find out why
23:46<fdelapena>it seems so, at least if you want to build the debian package, maybe could be disabled with some build system flags
23:46<sney>but i3 is small on disk and you can remove it after you build if that makes you feel better
23:49<sney>something you might not know is that build-deps are often a huge mess, and systems that are used to build software have a zillion extra files on them doing nothing, just there because they were a build dependency for something at some point.
23:49<sney>debian has developed a bunch of tools for this over the years, to build packages in a chroot, so it doesn't clutter up the main system.
23:52<sney>but it's generally best to take the maintainer's/upstream's word for what's needed at build time. and if in doubt, install another -dev that you aren't sure you need, just so ./configure doesn't fail again.
23:53<fdelapena>yep, most distros have a least a dedicated buildroot and usually a chroot-like thing, there are too much kind of broken build scripts, weird installation behaviors hard to patch before running them, etc. Ideally convincing upstream to fix the mess and provide patches helps a lot
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23:55<fdelapena>it's better to let upstream to apply risky patches by themselves instead of doing if downstream, to prevent disasters like the debian openssl security fiasco
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23:58<CyberManifest>so for alsa-lib I only found one pacakage and it's not a -dev
23:58<CyberManifest>it's some kind of doc package
23:59<CyberManifest>same for
---Logclosed Mon Sep 14 00:00:39 2020