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#debian IRC Logs for 2021-05-18

---Logopened Tue May 18 00:00:50 2021
00:06-!-amcclure [~anton@13.82.209.244] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 2.3]
00:09-!-jm_ [flier@000125af.user.oftc.net] has joined #debian
00:09-!-jm_ is "." on #debian
00:11-!-mendel_munkis [~mendelmun@ool-ae2cb250.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #debian
00:11-!-mendel_munkis is "realname" on #debian #i2p #debian-i18n #debian-gaming #Corsair #minidebconf-online
00:12-!-ol [~quassel@2406:e003:852:ff01:8e89:a5ff:feca:57fe] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
00:19-!-caraka [~quassel@58.48.255.123.static.snap.net.nz] has joined #debian
00:19-!-caraka is "rick,,," on #debian #salsaci #debian-academy
00:27-!-jayjo [~jayjo@0002ac2e.user.oftc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
00:30-!-Guest3975 [~quassel@69.234.62.200] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
00:34-!-mimi89999 [cb2cbfa643@89-72-190-170.dynamic.chello.pl] has left #debian [Disconnected: Received SIGTERM]
00:34-!-mimi89999 [cb2cbfa643@89-72-190-170.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #debian
00:34-!-mimi89999 is "mimi89999" on #debian
00:34-!-jayjo [~jayjo@205.178.21.87] has joined #debian
00:34-!-jayjo is "ZNC - https://znc.in" on #virt #debian #qemu
00:38-!-Funke [~spielmatr@2001:470:1af1:101::80a1] has joined #debian
00:38-!-Funke is "org.matrix:spiel" on #debian #kernelnewbies
00:38-!-amieiro [~amieiro@00019dad.user.oftc.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
00:38-!-amieiro [~amieiro@00019dad.user.oftc.net] has joined #debian
00:38-!-amieiro is "amieiro" on #debian-next #debian @#posdojo @#oo
00:39-!-demo [~demo@191.95.145.126] has joined #debian
00:39-!-demo is "realname" on #debian
00:39-!-demo [~demo@191.95.145.126] has quit []
00:42-!-tomg [tomg@64-7-151-80.border7-dynamic.dsl.sentex.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
00:43-!-ax562 [~ax562@0002ac27.user.oftc.net] has joined #debian
00:43-!-ax562 is "realname" on #linux #debian #debian-next
00:46-!-ax5623 [~NickServ@129.sub-174-194-194.myvzw.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
00:48-!-debian [~quassel@69.234.62.200] has joined #debian
00:48-!-debian is "debian,,," on #debian
00:48-!-debian is now known as Guest3982
00:52-!-blue__penquin [~blue_penq@0002adcb.user.oftc.net] has quit []
00:59-!-Zachary_DuBois [~Zachary_D@yukimorikawa.zacharydubois.net] has quit [Quit: 平和!(HTTP/2 503 Zachary is unavailable.)]
00:59-!-Zachary_DuBois [~Zachary_D@yukimorikawa.zacharydubois.net] has joined #debian
00:59-!-Zachary_DuBois is "Zachary DuBois" on #virt #qemu #oftc #linode #debian #ceph
01:00-!-ol [~quassel@2406:e003:852:ff01:8e89:a5ff:feca:57fe] has joined #debian
01:00-!-ol is "Ol" on #debian
01:03-!-diogenes_oftc [~diogenes_@212.0.201.164] has joined #debian
01:03-!-diogenes_oftc is "Nicolas" on #debian
01:03-!-ianma [~ianma@14.23.152.194] has joined #debian
01:03-!-ianma is "IanMa" on #poweradmin #debian
01:04-!-CuZnDragon [~Unknown@67.79.105.162] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
01:05-!-CuZnDragon [~Unknown@67.79.105.162] has joined #debian
01:05-!-CuZnDragon is "Unknown" on #debian #debian-next #qemu #virt
01:07-!-ax5623 [~NickServ@98.sub-174-194-135.myvzw.com] has joined #debian
01:07-!-ax5623 is "+" on #linux #debian-next #debian
01:14-!-adam126 [~adam12@70.33.210.238] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
01:16-!-adam12 [~adam12@70.33.210.238] has joined #debian
01:16-!-adam12 is "adam12" on #debian
01:26-!-adam120 [~adam12@70.33.210.238] has joined #debian
01:26-!-adam12 [~adam12@70.33.210.238] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
01:26-!-adam120 is "adam12" on #debian
01:26-!-adam120 is now known as adam12
01:26-!-asdf [~FE865@92.60.40.214] has joined #debian
01:26-!-asdf is "realname" on #debian
01:31-!-adam12 [~adam12@70.33.210.238] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
01:32-!-adam12 [~adam12@70.33.210.238] has joined #debian
01:32-!-adam12 is "adam12" on #debian
01:34-!-andibmu [~andi@94.134.93.75] has joined #debian
01:34-!-andibmu is "Andreas B. Mundt" on #debian-meeting #debian #debian-next #debian-offtopic #debian-edu #debian-lan
01:43-!-Guest3982 [~quassel@69.234.62.200] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
01:44-!-ph33r [~ph33r@2KHAAA4US.tor-irc.dnsbl.oftc.net] has joined #debian
01:44-!-ph33r is "realname" on #debian
01:46-!-zleap [~zleap3@00028cc7.user.oftc.net] has joined #debian
01:46-!-zleap is "realname" on #minidebconf-online #debian-academy #debian
01:46-!-CuZnDragon [~Unknown@67.79.105.162] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
01:46-!-CuZnDragon [~Unknown@67.79.105.162] has joined #debian
01:46-!-CuZnDragon is "Unknown" on #debian #debian-next #qemu #virt
01:46-!-CuZnDragon [~Unknown@67.79.105.162] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
01:46-!-CuZnDragon is "Unknown" on #debian #debian-next #qemu #virt
01:46-!-CuZnDragon [~Unknown@67.79.105.162] has joined #debian
01:54-!-ph33r [~ph33r@2KHAAA4US.tor-irc.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit []
02:01-!-polymetric1 [~polymetri@142-196-236-118.res.spectrum.com] has joined #debian
02:01-!-polymetric1 is "polymetric" on #debian
02:03-!-polymetric3 [~polymetri@142-196-236-118.res.spectrum.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
02:08-!-texou [~jp@000178ec.user.oftc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
02:11-!-CuZnDragon [~Unknown@67.79.105.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
02:11-!-debalance [~quassel@2a02:908:1080:9040:201:2eff:fe70:36f] has joined #debian
02:11-!-debalance is "Philipp Huebner" on #debian #debian-devel-changes
02:14-!-polymetric1 [~polymetri@142-196-236-118.res.spectrum.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
02:15-!-Specialist [~tg@2003:a:33d:2c0a:8c34:a330:e9a8:8fd4] has joined #debian
02:15-!-Specialist is "Thilo G." on #ceph-orchestrators #debian
02:15-!-CuZnDragon [~Unknown@67.79.105.162] has joined #debian
02:15-!-CuZnDragon is "Unknown" on #debian #debian-next #qemu #virt
02:16-!-debalance [~quassel@00017b9a.user.oftc.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
02:17-!-erle- [~stephan@2a04:ee41:3:3297:84b5:7ed1:e657:d14f] has joined #debian
02:17-!-erle- is "Stephan" on #mobian #debian #debian-raspberrypi
02:17-!-Echoz [~chris@77.106.180.114] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 3.0.1]
02:18-!-zlatan [~smuxi@213.91.85.209] has joined #debian
02:18-!-zlatan is "Zlatan Todoric" on #debian
02:18-!-lunc [~omnd@41.44.171.92] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
02:18-!-rGr45 [~FE865@92.60.40.213] has joined #debian
02:18-!-rGr45 is "realname" on #debian
02:19-!-zleap [~zleap3@00028cc7.user.oftc.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
02:19-!-orbatos [~smuxi@66-230-113-188-radius.dynamic.acsalaska.net] has joined #debian
02:19-!-orbatos is "orbatos" on #debian
02:24-!-awal1 [~awal1@bras-base-mtrlpq0315w-grc-18-70-55-155-143.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #debian
02:24-!-awal1 is "realname" on #debian-devel-changes #debian-next #debian
02:24-!-milkt_ [~debian@9J5AABMNF.tor-irc.dnsbl.oftc.net] has joined #debian
02:24-!-milkt_ is "debian" on #debian-games #debian-next #debian
02:24-!-andibmu [~andi@94.134.93.75] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
02:25-!-milkt [~debian@0002812a.user.oftc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
02:25-!-asdf [~FE865@92.60.40.214] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
02:32-!-artur [~smuxi@78.10.205.60] has joined #debian
02:32-!-artur is "Your Name" on #debian
02:35-!-user [~user@2KHAAA4VI.tor-irc.dnsbl.oftc.net] has joined #debian
02:35-!-user is "user" on #debian
02:35-!-user is now known as Guest3986
02:37-!-Guest3986 [~user@2KHAAA4VI.tor-irc.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit []
02:38-!-wytchmaster [~wytchmast@2003:a:a13:3002:161e:d791:2a2c:975d] has joined #debian
02:38-!-wytchmaster is "Andreas " on #debian
02:39-!-CuZnDragon [~Unknown@67.79.105.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
02:41-!-wytchmaster [~wytchmast@2003:a:a13:3002:161e:d791:2a2c:975d] has quit []
02:55-!-imega [~coma@mob-194-230-155-188.cgn.sunrise.net] has joined #debian
02:55-!-imega is "coma" on #fai #debian #ceph
02:59-!-lukaso666 [~lukaso666@109.95.144.165] has joined #debian
02:59-!-lukaso666 is "realname" on #mobian #debian
03:00-!-orbatos [~smuxi@66-230-113-188-radius.dynamic.acsalaska.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
03:04-!-skitt [~skitt@skitt.user.oftc.net] has joined #debian
03:04-!-skitt is "Stephen Kitt" on #debian
03:06-!-towo` [~towo@00012f0f.user.oftc.net] has joined #debian
03:06-!-towo` is "Torsten -towo- Wohlfarth" on #qemu #kernelnewbies #siduction-admin #debian-offtopic #debian-next #debian #aptosid
03:06-!-}ls{ [~kalle@000199a5.user.oftc.net] has joined #debian
03:06-!-}ls{ is "nobody" on #kvm #qemu #debian-nginx #debian-lan #debian-kde #debian-django #debian
03:07-!-gtristan [~tristan@223.62.219.24] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
03:08-!-bobbyprani [~Pranith@c-107-3-165-39.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
03:10-!-CuZnDragon [~Unknown@67.79.105.162] has joined #debian
03:10-!-CuZnDragon is "Unknown" on #virt #qemu #debian-next #debian
03:13-!-znalo [~quassel@0001231b.user.oftc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
03:17-!-UnoMas51 [~4564asdf6@static-11-51-86-188.ipcom.comunitel.net] has joined #debian
03:17-!-UnoMas51 is "Si SI" on #debian
03:22-!-Haudegen [~quassel@178.115.237.87.static.drei.at] has joined #debian
03:22-!-Haudegen is "AP,,," on #security #debian.or.at #debian-next #debian
03:30-!-ol [~quassel@2406:e003:852:ff01:8e89:a5ff:feca:57fe] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
03:32-!-texou [~jp@000178ec.user.oftc.net] has joined #debian
03:32-!-texou is "Stoicien" on #debian-nonupload #debian-i18n #bitlbee #debian-next #debian #debian-es #debian-devel-es #debian-devel-it #debian-l10n-fr #debian-a11y
03:32-!-diogenes_oftc [~diogenes_@212.0.201.164] has quit [Quit: vergissmeinnicht]
03:34-!-azeem_ is now known as azeem
03:35-!-ao2 [~ao2@host-82-55-143-50.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #debian
03:35-!-ao2 is "ao2" on #vcs-home #debian #cell
03:37-!-zlatan [~smuxi@213.91.85.209] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
03:39-!-andushki [~andushki@213.205.198.114] has joined #debian
03:39-!-andushki is "realname" on #debian
03:39-!-serkan [~serkan@p200300df1f1a4b691ff2477c1c56aa1f.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #debian
03:39-!-serkan is "realname" on #debian
03:43-!-serkan [~serkan@p200300df1f1a4b691ff2477c1c56aa1f.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit []
03:45-!-serkan1212 [~serkan@p200300df1f1a4b691ff2477c1c56aa1f.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #debian
03:45-!-serkan1212 is "realname" on #debian
03:48-!-mode/#debian [+l 686] by debhelper
03:48-!-dduck [~dduck@62.157.166.162] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
03:48-!-trylam [~estelle@2a01:e0a:5b9:7840:249b:7da0:ea1f:f4ae] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
03:48-!-trylam [~estelle@2a01:e0a:5b9:7840:c8b8:545d:f09:b615] has joined #debian
03:48-!-trylam is "PEREZ Estelle" on #debian
03:49-!-vertuxt [~vertuxt@HSI-KBW-46-223-163-32.hsi.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #debian
03:49-!-vertuxt is "vertuxt" on #debian
03:50-!-dduck [~dduck@62.157.166.162] has joined #debian
03:50-!-dduck is "dduck" on #debian #mobian
03:54-!-serkan1212 [~serkan@p200300df1f1a4b691ff2477c1c56aa1f.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
03:56-!-gtristan [~tristan@223.62.162.60] has joined #debian
03:56-!-gtristan is "Tristan van Berkom" on #debian-next #kernelnewbies #qemu #debian
03:58-!-menace [~someone@2001:a61:3481:e901:19d7:3cac:91ae:5180] has quit []
03:59-!-jayjo- [~jayjo@205.178.21.87] has joined #debian
03:59-!-jayjo- is "ZNC - https://znc.in" on #virt #debian #qemu
04:00-!-jayjo [~jayjo@0002ac2e.user.oftc.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
04:03-!-chipps [~chipps@103.31.191.220] has joined #debian
04:03-!-chipps is "chipps" on #debian #spectrwm
04:04-!-zlatan [~smuxi@213.91.85.209] has joined #debian
04:04-!-zlatan is "Zlatan Todoric" on #debian
04:06-!-netvor [~amahdal@ip-94-112-128-19.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #debian
04:06-!-netvor is "amahdal" on #debian
04:09-!-secntech [~secntech@0002a124.user.oftc.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
04:09-!-chele [~chele@00022067.user.oftc.net] has joined #debian
04:09-!-chele is "chele" on #debian-next #debian
04:09-!-serkan [~serkan@p200300df1f1a4b691ff2477c1c56aa1f.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #debian
04:09-!-serkan is "realname" on #debian
04:09-!-serkan is now known as serkan1212
04:15-!-gabriel1 [~gabriel1@9J5AABMQ3.tor-irc.dnsbl.oftc.net] has joined #debian
04:15-!-gabriel1 is "Gabx" on #security #retroshare #Qubes_OS #i2p #debian
04:23-!-ee2455 [~ee2455@0001c7c0.user.oftc.net] has joined #debian
04:23-!-ee2455 is "ee2455" on #debian
04:27-!-lunc [~lunc@41.44.171.92] has joined #debian
04:27-!-lunc is "omnd" on #debian #oftc #help
04:28-!-mode/#debian [+l 693] by debhelper
04:31-!-UnoMas51 [~4564asdf6@static-11-51-86-188.ipcom.comunitel.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
04:32-!-awal1 [~awal1@bras-base-mtrlpq0315w-grc-18-70-55-155-143.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
04:34-!-Blacker47 [~Blacker47@00014f22.user.oftc.net] has joined #debian
04:34-!-Blacker47 is "Blacker47" on #debian-next #debian
04:36-!-gabriel1 [~gabriel1@9J5AABMQ3.tor-irc.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
04:37-!-chele [~chele@00022067.user.oftc.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
04:37-!-chele [~chele@00022067.user.oftc.net] has joined #debian
04:37-!-chele is "chele" on #debian #debian-next
04:43-!-serkan1212 [~serkan@p200300df1f1a4b691ff2477c1c56aa1f.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
04:54-!-drzacek [~drzacek@b941c009.business.dg-w.de] has joined #debian
04:54-!-drzacek is "realname" on #packaging #linux-rt #debian-next #debian
04:54-!-drzacek [~drzacek@b941c009.business.dg-w.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
04:54-!-drzacek is "realname" on #packaging #linux-rt #debian-next #debian
04:54-!-drzacek [~drzacek@b941c009.business.dg-w.de] has joined #debian
04:58-!-kathenas [~kathenas@2a02:c7f:e512:a500:761b:dd83:9b43:bc40] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
05:03-!-kathenas [~kathenas@2a02:c7f:e512:a500:761b:dd83:9b43:bc40] has joined #debian
05:03-!-kathenas is "Phil Wyett" on #packaging #debian #debian-ai #debian-next #debian-meeting
05:08-!-tomg [tomg@64-7-151-80.border7-dynamic.dsl.sentex.ca] has joined #debian
05:08-!-tomg is "Tom Goulet" on #debian
05:09-!-ao2 [~ao2@host-82-55-143-50.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
05:11-!-aby [~aby@188.64.207.195] has joined #debian
05:11-!-aby is "Aby" on #debian
05:11-!-Abrax [~Abrax@ip98-168-63-15.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
05:12-!-futune [~futune@95.82.135.121] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
05:20-!-freshtube [~freshtube@89.38.224.93] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
05:25-!-snorlax [~sim@pelipper.snorl.ax] has joined #debian
05:25-!-snorlax is "sim" on #debian
05:25-!-grumble [~grumble@0002aaa2.user.oftc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
05:27-!-freshtube [~freshtube@89.38.224.93] has joined #debian
05:27-!-freshtube is "realname" on #redditprivacy #debian
05:27-!-snorlax [~sim@pelipper.snorl.ax] has quit []
05:27-!-snorlax [~sim@pelipper.snorl.ax] has joined #debian
05:27-!-snorlax is "sim" on #debian
05:27-!-snorlax [~sim@pelipper.snorl.ax] has quit []
05:28-!-snorlax is "sim" on #debian
05:28-!-snorlax [~sim@pelipper.snorl.ax] has joined #debian
05:29-!-grumble is " " on #oftc
05:29-!-grumble [~grumble@0002aaa2.user.oftc.net] has joined #debian
05:31-!-Abrax [~Abrax@ip98-168-63-15.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #debian
05:31-!-Abrax is "Abrax Tryke" on #virt #ceph #qemu #publiclab #mobian #debian #videogames
05:32-!-f10_ [~flo@ip5b402e34.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
05:33-!-gtristan_ [~tristan@223.62.162.60] has joined #debian
05:33-!-gtristan_ is "Tristan van Berkom" on #debian-next #kernelnewbies #qemu #debian
05:34-!-gtristan [~tristan@223.62.162.60] has quit [Read error: No route to host]
05:34-!-zlatan [~smuxi@213.91.85.209] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
05:41-!-MillerBoss [~B@2001:19f0:5c01:117a:5400:601:be22:419] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
05:42-!-andushki [~andushki@213.205.198.114] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
05:42-!-lonewulf1 [~lonewulf@104-0-8-151.lightspeed.stlsmo.sbcglobal.net] has joined #debian
05:42-!-lonewulf1 is "U-lonewulf-PC\lonewulf" on #linode #debian #oftc
05:42-!-ham5urg [~ham5urg@pd95eb7ca.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #debian
05:42-!-ham5urg is "ham5urg" on #debian
05:43-!-zlatan [~smuxi@213.91.85.209] has joined #debian
05:43-!-zlatan is "Zlatan Todoric" on #debian
05:43-!-zlatan [~smuxi@213.91.85.209] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
05:43-!-lonewulf` [~lonewulf@00020897.user.oftc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
05:45-!-snorlax [~sim@pelipper.snorl.ax] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 2.3]
05:45-!-snorlax [~sim@pelipper.snorl.ax] has joined #debian
05:45-!-snorlax is "sim" on #debian
05:46-!-MillerBoss [~B@2001:19f0:5c01:117a:5400:601:be22:419] has joined #debian
05:46-!-MillerBoss is "B" on #redditprivacy #virt #linode #debian
05:47-!-jose [~jose@85.184.226.190] has joined #debian
05:47-!-jose is "realname" on #debian
05:48-!-jose [~jose@85.184.226.190] has quit []
05:49-!-snorlax [~sim@pelipper.snorl.ax] has quit []
05:49-!-snorlax [~sim@pelipper.snorl.ax] has joined #debian
05:49-!-snorlax is "sim" on #debian
05:49-!-snorlax [~sim@pelipper.snorl.ax] has quit []
05:49-!-snorlax is "sim" on #debian
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07:15<pgimeno>should I upgrade sources.list to use https instead of http? I've seen notes about adding support for https in the changelogs, but the installer-generated sources.list (when I installed a fresh Buster in the virtual machine) uses http
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07:20<mayhew>pgimeno: it's not really necessary unless you're concerned about someone watching the network for what you download with apt
07:21<pgimeno>it more about ensuring that no MITM injects unwanted packages
07:21<avu>pgimeno: apt protects against that without needing TLS
07:21<pgimeno>oh ok
07:22<avu>also, I'd wager package sizes are unique enough that someone watching the network can deduce what packages you download even with TLS
07:22<mayhew>yup, the packages are signed via GPG / fancy crypto which is better at preventing MITM than HTTPS
07:22<mayhew>the only downside of HTTP is that people can see the traffic in clear text, but I personally don't care if someone sees my apt traffic lol
07:22<ava>isn't https-apt gpg + tls?
07:23<avu>ava: apt-transport-https doesn't disable the existing mechanisms if that's what you mean, it just adds HTTPS on top of everything
07:24<ava>yeah, that's objectively better then, from my pov
07:24<ava>ofc a commercial provider like an average ISP will snoop on your traffic
07:24<ava>don't see why one wouldn't want to https ones apt up
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07:24<avu>ava: it's not that easy to come up with a threat model where adding https on top of what apt does adds meaningful security
07:25<pgimeno>are the package lists also signed? I mean the ones you download with apt-get update
07:25<avu>although I seem to remember there was a bug in apt once that did make it relevant
07:25<avu>pgimeno: they are
07:25<pgimeno>k
07:26<pgimeno>then yeah, my concern was about authenticity, not traffic snooping
07:26<ava>avau: yeah i heard of that as well. Isn't that why interest in https-apt is regaining momentum again?
07:26<ava>avu*
07:26<mayhew>I wonder if it's time for Debian to reevaluate their position on whether sources.list should default to HTTPS. TLS is so cheap these days it shouldn't increase the burden on mirrors very much I'd assume.
07:26<erle->ava, APT is not secure, because an attacker can respond to apt-update with «unchanged»
07:27<erle->avu
07:28<avu>erle-: Not sure what you mean, apt downloads the package list on update, there is no service on the other side that responds with the individual changes for the querying system
07:28<erle->avu, there is, HTTP header, if package is unchanged
07:28<erle->just run it twice and look at it
07:29<erle->attackers can prevent you from discovering updates
07:29<avu>erle-: ah, you mean the normal HTTP cache control headers? Do you have any source on how those can be used to attack apt?
07:29<erle->HTTPS is not a good solution though
07:29<erle->but it is an open issue
07:30<erle->avu, if you run apt update twice without a change of package list, the second time it will respond with 304 Not Modified
07:30<erle->so the attack is trivial: just substitute all responses to apt
07:30<erle->'s HTTP requests with 304 not modified
07:33<ava>earle-: are you saying this is a particular fault of apt? Any other package managers that do a better job on security in your view?
07:34<avu>erle-: if an attacker can intercept traffic, that might be a more subtle attack than just stopping the requests, true. Again, do you have any source on this working with apt-transport-http?
07:34<erle->I tested it myself
07:34<erle->it is ancient issue, and comes up in any ftp vs http vs https discussion
07:34<avu>did you file a bug or document it somewhere else?
07:34<erle->I am not advocating HTTPS for mirrors though
07:34<erle->it would solve it, but it would have side effects
07:34<erle->mirror operation would be much harder
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07:38<pgimeno>it seems my mirror does not support https: https://ftp.at.debian.org/
07:39<avu>a Schluchtenschaßer
07:39<ava>Yeah it seems to be a very limited number of mirrors that do
07:42<ava>Anyone run into the systemd service bug "active (exited)"?
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07:44<erle->ETH Zürich does not support TLS either
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07:51<ava>Is there a way to 'reset' an application's config settings to the OS's (debian version) default, from cli? Like for example 'apt reset ufw' or 'apt reset apparmor' or something
07:54<aby>dpkg-reconfigure
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07:55<aby>maybe this help you dpkg-reconfigure - reconfigure an already installed package
07:55<Guest4002>?
07:55<Guest4002>?
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07:55<aby>🤔️
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07:59<jm_>ava: you can install it using dpkg and its force options, but this won't work for all packages
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08:10<ava>Thank you for the replies, will continue to failtest in half an hour with these tips
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08:59<sonce>Hi, i have a few diff installations (trying to get the onboard graphics working, all failed), and im about to plug in a graphic card. which one do i go to: 4.19 or 5.12 ?
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09:25<ava>Is it expected behavior to not have ufw at "active (exited)", due to it being a "oneshot" service? What about no firewalls (either frontends like ufw, or iptables or nftables) being listed in System Monitor, while other cli system applications like systemd and pulseaudio are listed there?
09:26<ava>Is it expected behavior to have*
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09:44<pgimeno>the upgrade is successfully finished in all respects, thanks again everyone who helped!
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09:51<metreo>hello all you fine people, has anyone noticed issues with watch producing garbage? pastbin incoming
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09:52<metreo>this is what I get watching top: https://paste.debian.net/1197985/
09:53<metreo>in both alacritty and xfceterminal
09:53<metreo>guess I could try xterm
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09:55<metreo>xterm is also the same
09:55<metreo>ie not working :/
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10:34<RoyK>metreo: I'm not sure if that is a bug ;) top uses a lot of ANSI codes and it refreshes itself nicely, so no reason to use watch
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10:35<metreo>it does similar for processes that don't update
10:36<metreo>https://paste.debian.net/1197991/
10:36<metreo>there is garbage here in the string ^]11;?^\
10:37<metreo>I just pointed to watch in my own ignorance but you are right RoyK
10:37<metreo>top is a poor example
10:39<RoyK>metreo: in top, just type s to set the update frequency
10:39<rjsalts>if I have uefi secure boot with shim and grub and I've messed things up by moving my efi partition around a bit. I'm in linux but am going to reinstall grub, so grub-install --boot-directory=/boot --uefi-secure-boot /dev/...
10:39<rjsalts>what should the dev be?
10:40<RoyK>rjsalts: check with lsblk
10:40<rjsalts>hd with debian /boot? hd with efi parition? somewhere else?
10:41<RoyK>efi partition iirc
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10:52<rjsalts>as it turns out I just needed grub-install on its own
10:54<RoyK>ah
10:54<RoyK>nice
10:54<rjsalts>but efibootmgr has 2 boot entries for "debian" \EFI\DEBIAN\SHIMX64.EFI and \EFI\DEBIAN\GRUBX64.EFI
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10:54<rjsalts>any way to remove the 2nd one which doesn't work with secure boot?
10:54<rjsalts>just efibootmgr -b 0007 -B?
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10:55<rjsalts>where that's the one with grubx64.efi
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12:05<r4fkramer>Hi all, Please, is there no way to install cPanel on Debian?
12:05<bremner>did you ask cPanel?
12:05<r4fkramer>Yes, bremner
12:05<bremner>and what did they say?
12:06<RoyK>r4fkramer: better learn to administer linux from the commandline ;)
12:06<r4fkramer>I didn't understand about "they". I just saw this comment in some articles
12:06<bremner>so, you did not seek help in the official cPanel support channels?
12:07<r4fkramer>Yes, RoyK, agree, I tend to learn and practice in Debian through command line.
12:07<RoyK>r4fkramer: you won't regret it. webbased admin software can never do everything so you'll end up using the commandline in the end, after all
12:07<r4fkramer>No, I have some articles describing its configuration in RHEL and CentOS. But, my doubt is about this application being installed in Debian.
12:08<r4fkramer>Yes, RoyK, agree
12:08<bremner>r4fkramer: if some software is not in Debian, then you should ask the author / vendor of that software
12:08<RoyK>AFAICS it's made for rhel and friends and those distros are quite different from debian
12:08<r4fkramer>In this case, is just a curiosity about cPanel in Debian. I never substitute command line
12:09<RoyK>so if you manage to install cpanel on debian, it'll probably mess things up rather badly
12:10<RoyK>!free whcp
12:10<dpkg>FOSS Web Hosting Control Panels include: <DTC>, <GNUPanel>, <ISPConfig> and <ispCP> Omega. Don't use <Webmin>. http://wiki.debian.org/HostingControlPanels
12:10<RoyK>if you really want to spend time on that instead of learning linux the hard way ;)
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12:12<r4fkramer>No RoyK, in fact it's not my intention - I made this observation above - I always tend to learn Debian Administration, that means managing the OS through command line, not any framework or similar application - that's why I never used Yast in openSUSE
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12:15<r4fkramer>In fact, I never replaced Debian with any other Linux Distro or any other UNIX-Like. As I noted, it was just a curiosity.
12:16<RoyK>I understand
12:16<r4fkramer>I thought about this cPanel issue after thinking about the SELinux case, which is activated by default in CentOS, but it is not in Debian, although it is available in CentOS through its official repository.
12:17<r4fkramer>The analogy is not accurate, but I think You understand me RoyK :)
12:18<r4fkramer>correction: "although it is available in Debian too, through its official repository"
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12:21<RoyK>r4fkramer: what you could do, is try to collect the best part of known distros and create a new one to fix it all. It'll probably be like this https://xkcd.com/927/
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12:28<jhutchin1>I cut my teeth on this: https://www.oreilly.com/library/view/running-linux-5th/0596007604/
12:29<jhutchin1>I haven't seen the 2005 edition, it may be a bit dated, and it was originally writen for (and distributed with) Red Hat, but it's probably still a good primer.
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12:35<sarnold>r4fkramer: these kinds of control panels are almost always intended for one distribution like red hat linux 7 or something and fail pretty bad when run on something like rhel 7 or centos 8 or debian or whatever. it's best to learn tools that work better in your chosen environment, or choose your environment to match the tools
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12:48<jhutchin1>One of the problems with systems like webmin is that they don't just update the standard configuration files, they insert a layer that manages the configuration and overrides the files. When they break (and they do) it's very difficult to find where the breakage is and fix it.
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12:49<jhutchin1>I have had to manage a small ISP using webmin for clients that were barely literate in Windows/Mac, and it really is easier to have the client request a change and to do it for them than to let them play with a web manager.
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12:59<r4fkramer>RoyK, I understand your suggestion; but, if it was a suggestion what you did, in my case it doesn’t make much sense, since I like Debian very much, and I don’t see the need for a hypothetical Distro to bring together the best parts of those already known, to put together customized and replacement package for Debian.
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13:02<RoyK>r4fkramer: sorry - please see the xkcd link I gave you. I was being rather ironic
13:02<r4fkramer>Sure, sarnold, agree. In fact, as I said before, it was just a curiosity. I tend to emphasize command line in my learning. I never worried about looking for some substitute application to the command line, to learn how to administer a Debian System.
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13:02<jhutchin1>!handbook
13:02<dpkg>The Debian Administrator's Handbook is at http://debian-handbook.info/ and can be browsed, bought and downloaded. From Debian 7 "Wheezy" onwards, it can also be installed from the debian-handbook package. Also ask me about <books> <docs>. PDF at https://debian-handbook.info/download/stable/debian-handbook.pdf
13:03<r4fkramer>RoyK... ironic....I see, I'll check your link in few minutes, thank you
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13:03<r4fkramer>jhutchin1, I have this manual both in english, portuguese and spanishi translation. I read some parts of it
13:03<r4fkramer>and Debian Reference also
13:04<r4fkramer>Well, RoyK, let me open https://xkcd.com/927/ now....
13:06<r4fkramer>Oh, yeah, that's the origin of hundreds of distros nowadays, lol
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13:06<r4fkramer>Good joke, RoyK, thank you for that :)
13:07<jhutchin1>Yeah, I have a whole box of micro-usb cables and only one device that can use them. Everything is c/3 now.
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13:09<RoyK>except those old arduino nanos with USB mini
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13:16<Sqrt{Not}>No, the good stuff need C 3.2 or higher. I just charge everything wirelessly, and use IrDA for data
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13:20<Guest4015>ok
13:21<RoyK>Sqrt{Not}: IrDA? Are you from the past? ;)
13:21<Guest4015>who
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13:22<Guest4015>https://www.google.com
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13:27<jhutchin1>QI seems to hvae fallen out of fashion. Niether my wife's Samsung nor my Motorola support it. My old, mostly dead Turbo2 did.
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13:29<jhutchin1>Sqrt{Not}: I was talking about the physical connectors. There are four or more protocols that use the symetrical micro connector.
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13:52<TimMc>I kind of miss infrared. It was cool as hell in Palm Pilots. :-)
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14:08<sarnold>it was cool as hell with hp48 calculators too; write something neat? share it with your pals with a few taps
14:09<jhutchin1>I keep trying to use the arrow keys on my laptop to control the TV.
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15:47<circ-user-Zgibn>hi
15:47<sney>hi
15:47<circ-user-Zgibn>is this debian support?
15:47<sney>yes
15:48<circ-user-Zgibn>thanks! i have a question.
15:49<circ-user-Zgibn>i've upgraded from debian 9 to debian 10, i have 2 acct administrator & root, this is local server so i just use pw 123456, since update i cannot su, or su-
15:49<circ-user-Zgibn>i can login with administrator which is limited does not have access as root
15:49<circ-user-Zgibn>do you know why this is
15:50<sney>there is a change in su behavior in buster, but it should still work. what happens when you try?
15:50<circ-user-Zgibn>su: Authentication Failure
15:51<somiaj>are you sure you are using the root password and not the administrator password?
15:52<circ-user-Zgibn>before the update i had same password for administator & root
15:52<somiaj>Hmm, I cannot think of why a password would no longer work, do you have sudo installed and setup by chance?
15:52<sney>is there a timeout between enter and 'authentication failure' or does it return right away? it could be a pam issue
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15:54<circ-user-Zgibn>administrator@server:~$ sudo -V -bash: sudo: command not found
15:54<somiaj>just 'sudo -i'
15:54<jhutchin1>circ-user-Zgibn: Can you log in directly?
15:55<circ-user-Zgibn>yes there is about 5 seconds timeout after i enter password
15:55<jhutchin1>circ-user-Zgibn: There should be a space between su and -
15:55<circ-user-Zgibn>when I do "sudo -i" -bash: sudo: command not found
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15:56<somiaj>oh I missunderstood, I thought -bash was a flag. Yea, I would try jhutchin1 suggestion
15:56<jhutchin1>circ-user-Zgibn: Did this work before?
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15:57<circ-user-Zgibn>with "su -" i get su: Authentication failure
15:57<somiaj>The suggestion was to login from a tty, not using su
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15:58<circ-user-Zgibn>i cannot login directly, I get: Permission denied, please try again.
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16:01<jhutchins>!ifrp
16:01<dpkg>For GRUB: 1) press 'e' to edit the kernel setting in the grub command line (add 'init=/bin/sh' to the end of it) 2) 'fsck' your root file system, 3) 'mount -o remount,rw /', 4) 'passwd root' 5) 'mount -o remount,ro /' 6) 'reboot -d -f' (exec /sbin/init should work); For LILO: 1) 'Linux init=/bin/sh' at the LILO boot prompt (hold Shift while booting), steps 2-6 are the same; For yaboot: 1) 'Linux init=/bin/sh' at yaboot prompt.
16:01<somiaj>There are ways to boot using things like init=/bin/bash or use a live system where you could go reset the root password, and see if that works. and there the bot gave you one
16:03<jhutchins>circ-user-Zgibn: Somehow the password has changed.
16:03<somiaj>that could be tested (though probably have to be root) by looking at the hash in /etc/shadow, it could also be as sney wonder if pam is having issues with root.
16:04<somiaj>this of course is only due to that they said the admin and root password are the same.
16:05<circ-user-Zgibn>i dont recall changing the password for root or administrator accts
16:06<circ-user-Zgibn>is this recommended fix: For GRUB: 1) press 'e' to edit the kernel setting in the grub command line (add 'init=/bin/sh' to the end of it) 2) 'fsck' your root file system, 3) 'mount -o remount,rw /', 4) 'passwd root' 5) 'mount -o remount,ro /' 6) 'reboot -d -f' (exec /sbin/init should work);
16:06<circ-user-Zgibn>to change root password
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16:07<somiaj>yes that is a way to change the password if you can boot the system with init=/bin/sh, another option is to use a live image.
16:07<circ-user-Zgibn>jhutchin1, thanks! yes I was able to "su" before the update
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16:16<circ-user-Zgibn>i'll give it a try...
16:16<circ-user-Zgibn>can root password still be 123456
16:17<sney>it's not very secure, but that should still be accepted
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16:21<circ-user-Zgibn>login: root
16:21<circ-user-Zgibn>passwrod: 123456
16:21<circ-user-Zgibn>i get login incorrect
16:21<circ-user-Zgibn>directly on the server
16:21<circ-user-Zgibn>why is this?
16:21<ryouma>is this the first time you tried it?
16:22<circ-user-Zgibn>no
16:22<ryouma>i mean, did it work before, at the same type of login prompt?
16:23<circ-user-Zgibn>before update debian 9 to 10 it worked
16:23<sney>just for giggles, when you change it, try 1234567
16:24<ryouma>ignorant q ,but is it possible that the upgrade got rid of the root account or some such thing?
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16:26<ryouma>does it work if you do su - from user cli?
16:26<circ-user-Zgibn>no
16:27<sney>I am guessing some pam changes between stretch and buster garbled that insecure password somehow. there may be an existing bug report about it
16:28<sney>anyway, recovery boot to change the password should fix it.
16:29<sarnold>it'd probably be worth investigating a bit once you've rebooted rather than just blindly trying to reset the password -- doublecheck the PAM configs, see what settings are required, doublecheck the password hash in /etc/shadow and see if it matches the current settings, see if there are other hashes in the file that need to be updated, etc
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16:33<circ-user-Zgibn>i tried changing pw to 1234567 i cannot i get authentication token manupulation error
16:33<circ-user-Zgibn>same issue if i try w/ strict pw
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16:46<circ-user-Zgibn>any ideas how to fix: "authentication token manipulation error" on debian 10 google results not so promising
16:47<sarnold>yeah that doesn't feel like a problem that has a simple solution
16:47<sney>maybe reinstall the libpam* packages
16:48<sarnold>you'll have to figure out which PAM module is reporting that message and then look through the databases that it's using, what resources it uses, etc, and go fix whatever is wrong with them
16:50<circ-user-Zgibn>sarnold, thanks!
16:50<circ-user-Zgibn>can i reinstall libpam* packages w/o root access
16:51<sney>no, but you can get root access with init=/bin/sh or with a rescue environment chroot.
16:51<sarnold>no, you'll have to reboot into single user or init=/bin/bash for that
16:51<sney>steps 1-3 of the root password reset instructions above will do it
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16:57<circ-user-Zgibn>i am already in single user mode, when i "apt-get install libpam*"i get: could not open lock file
16:58<sarnold>hmm, normally that's caused by unattended-upgrades or something similar, but I wouldn't expect that to start in single user mode. maybe it does?
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17:22<circ-user-Zgibn>sarnold, how would I do this: "ou'll have to figure out which PAM module is reporting that message and then look through the databases that it's using, what resources it uses, etc, and go fix whatever is wrong with them"?
17:24<sney>start by looking for info in syslog, and/or auth.log
17:25<sarnold>circ-user-Zgibn: pick one of the pam services that shows this error, read its /etc/pam.d/ configuration, and try removing / replacing the modules one at a time, test, and narrow down which module is giving you trouble; then you could read the sources, or use opensnoop, or something ismilar to figure out which resources it's using, and then figure out what's wrong with those resources
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17:34<circ-user-Zgibn>thanks sney & sarnold, also any idea how to fix "could not open lock file"
17:35<sney>stop the unattended-upgrades service, close any running apt/dpkg processes
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17:49<sappheiros>if I make a loan repayment cost program, could it go into Economics at https://wiki.debian.org/DebianScience/ ?
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17:51<abrotman>sappheiros: perhaps, though, I'd think you could do that with a macro in Libreoffice/Calc?
17:52*sappheiros reads https://documentation.libreoffice.org/assets/Uploads/Documentation/en/CG4.1/PDF/CG4112-CalcMacros.pdf
17:54<sarnold>though a 4kb python program might be more approachable than a few hundred megabytes of libreoffice packages just to run one spreadsheet
17:54<sarnold>I wonder if sc could do it? :)
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17:55<sappheiros>I'm thinking something fancier than a spreadsheet brute-force method ... What is sc?
17:55<abrotman>there is/was gnucash
17:55<sney>it's reasonable to assume that most people hoping to use their computer to manage personal finances will already have libreoffice installed.
17:56<sney>but, a specialized tool would still be more unix-y.
17:56<sappheiros>That does raise a question: What's the proper logic to determine whether something should be done in Calc or Python?
17:56<abrotman>judd: info gnucash
17:56<judd>Package gnucash (gnome, optional) in buster/amd64: personal and small-business financial-accounting software. Version: 1:3.4-1+b10; Size: 4341.6k; Installed: 22199k; Homepage: http://www.gnucash.org/; Screenshot: https://screenshots.debian.net/package/gnucash; RFH: #910059
17:56<sarnold>sappheiros: sc is a spreadsheet tool from the ancient times, hehe
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17:56<abrotman>sappheiros: Whichever you prefer
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17:57*sappheiros investigates https://gnucash.org/
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17:58<abrotman>apparently you can just import one of the several loan calculation thingamajigs into Calc, and off you go
17:59<somiaj>sappheiros: is your goal to write you own loan repayment program (what sort of features does it have?), or write something to get into debian?
17:59<sney>and such a tool already existing doesn't eclipse the need for another one, if there's something that can be done cleaner or a different approach, etc
17:59<somiaj>and if your goal is write your own, have you looked at what is already out there, as mentioned here, and what would your software do differently?
17:59<sappheiros>abrotman, what loan calc thingamajig to import into Calc?
18:00<sappheiros>gnucash seems rather for business transaction recording, not calculating loan cost under various repayment conditions
18:00<abrotman>you can google "libreoffice loan repayment schedule" and you'll see what I mean
18:00<abrotman>right, just because one exists doesn't mean you can't create a newer/betterer one
18:00<sappheiros>i would want any program I write to wind up in the official repository so it might help more than just me
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18:03<sappheiros>does the swirl icon in Synaptic Package Manager mean it's being officially maintained by a Debian maintainer?
18:03<sappheiros>(I'm impressed that dogecoin is in there...)
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18:05<Phedro>irc.breadofgod.org
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18:08<sappheiros>I'm not seeing quite what I want from this preliminary LibreOffice/Excel search ... I'm thinking to write a program that will both visualize and estimate cost of paying off multiple loans by a particular date.
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18:10<somiaj>sappheiros: well I think you are getting ahead of yourself. I think researching other software that does what you want and deciding if you want something more specialized or to fill a different use case is fine. After that write your software and release it, once that is done then you can start to consider going through the process of getting it in debian.
18:10<somiaj>sappheiros: though note if you end up using python, just publishing it on something like github is a good place to start as users can find it and use it.
18:11<sappheiros>'release it'? Should I put it on Github?
18:11<sappheiros>mm.
18:11<sappheiros>okay, thanks ... I suppose I should write the program, put it on github, and then see about a debian sponsor?
18:11<somiaj>packages in debian have to come from some upstream release, so github is probably the easist for most people
18:12<somiaj>sappheiros: yea, once you have softaware that is correctly licensed (to meet the DFSG) and released with a clear upstream, then you can (provided you want to the be the matainer) make a debian package and follow the instructions on mentors.debian.net to see if any sponsors think it would benifit debian to include it
18:12<somiaj>but I think that is a bit ahead of where you are at which is first developing and releasing the software (github to me would be the easiest to release it on)
18:13<somiaj>gitlab is an alternative if you don't like github, there are other options, but each with its own pros/cons.
18:14*sappheiros checks https://usersnap.com/blog/gitlab-github/
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18:16<sappheiros>gitlab looks like a solution for experts who run into a problem with github
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18:19<somiaj>There could also be social/philosphical views, in terms of which corp you like/trust.
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18:19<somiaj>But that is beyond this, I was just pointing out you do need someplace to release the software and host the source code.
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18:40<hwpplayer1>hi people! Now I have a Git account and a registered IRC Account here
18:40<sarnold>wb hwpplayer1 :)
18:40<hwpplayer1>I am working on OFTC Network Services itslef
18:40<hwpplayer1>sarnold: From Canonical right ?
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18:41<sarnold>hwpplayer1: yes
18:41<hwpplayer1>Are you a Debian contributor ?
18:41<hwpplayer1>*itself
18:41<sarnold>hwpplayer1: not really; I respond to bug reports and mail posts and irc discussions, but I'm not a DM or DD
18:42<hwpplayer1>Understood we have common source code maybe which is why you are here
18:42<sarnold>well, that, and I'm everywhere
18:42<hwpplayer1>like me
18:42<sarnold>exactly
18:43<hwpplayer1>May I send a pm to you ?
18:43<sarnold>sure
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19:51<sappheiros>My desktop keeps resuming from sleep and I don't know why. How do I troubleshoot or resolve this problem?
19:51<sappheiros>i.e. I put it to sleep, go to bed, and by the time I'm up the next morning I see something has caused it to wake
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20:04<sney>the vast majority of the time, it's something triggering a normal wakeup. such as vibration, cat, etc
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20:11<sappheiros>Okay. I will try unplugging the mouse and keyboard immediately after initiating sleep.
20:11<sappheiros>Does it wake from an Ethernet cable signal?
20:12<somiaj>cat is often a culprit
20:13<somiaj>sappheiros: yes network can wake machines as well, maybe check your firmware settings (bios)
20:15<sappheiros>that's a bit troubling, because i don't know a good reason something would be sending an Internet signal to my machine when i'm not using IRC or firefox ...
20:15<somiaj>it most likely isn't the case, I'm just saying some firmware can, and this si configurable in the firmare (bios)
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20:18<sappheiros>hmmm .... okay thanks ...
20:19<sappheiros>How do I suggest adding to Synaptic Package Manager, that grisbi Package should have some comment indicating it's French, not English?
20:19<sappheiros>or is it not debian custom to indicate when things are not English?
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20:22<somiaj>sappheiros: is it only in french, or does it include multiple translations?
20:23<sappheiros>only French it looks to me, though the site advertising it is English
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20:24<somiaj>https://packages.debian.org/buster/all/grisbi-common/filelist -- I see enghlis and french docs, along with locales for many langauges including en_GB and en_US
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20:25<somiaj>it does appear the author is french, but it also appears to have the files needed for english translations, so should be something you can configure, maybe start in /usr/share/doc/grisbi/ and look at the english docs
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20:32<sappheiros>oh. i guess the website is outdated or something ... thanks
20:32<sappheiros>the links to sourceforge ...
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---Logclosed Wed May 19 00:00:47 2021