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#debian IRC Logs for 2021-05-25

---Logopened Tue May 25 00:00:01 2021
---Daychanged Tue May 25 2021
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03:48<FelixActually>Can someone explain to me in simple terms how to set up ssh over an internal network only? I need to connect to one computer without a monitor via another
03:49<TheBigK>FelixActually: do u want to limit the access of ur openssh-server or whats exactly what u need
03:49<somiaj>FelixActually: so you want sshd to only listen on some interfaces (not all?)
03:50<somiaj>If that is the case, edit /etc/ssh/sshd_config and update ListenAddress 0.0.0.0, have it only list the address you want it to listen on.
03:52<FelixActually>somiaj: I mean that I don't want any connections from outside my local network. If I don't open the required port, is that all that has to be done?
03:52<FelixActually>Also, I've never set up ssh before, so I need it explained how I do it; how do I set it so I can log in with a password, for instance?
03:53<ratrace>that's default config on debian
03:53<somiaj>FelixActually: by default just apt install openssh-server
03:53<ratrace>in fact it also accepts public keys too, default is both
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03:53<somiaj>FelixActually: now how is your machine connected to the outside world, does it have an ipaddress that is accessible to the outside world, or do you connect to the outside world from a router?
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03:56<FelixActually>somiaj: Both computers will be connected to my router
03:56<somiaj>FelixActually: your router will not allow the outside world to ssh into the local network, unless you configure it to do so
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03:57<FelixActually>As in by opening the port?
03:57<somiaj>so just install openssh-server and don't worry about it
03:57<FelixActually>Okay, but after installing it I don't have to do any configuration for it to just work and be connected to?
03:57<somiaj>yea, you would have to manually open the port to allow this (I know ipv6 is a bit different on this)
03:57<FelixActually>Is the default password the root password?
03:57<somiaj>by default root is not allowed to login via ssh with a password
03:57<somiaj>but once installed the username/password are the same as on your system.
03:57<somiaj>Just instead of using root, login as your normal user
03:58<FelixActually>And I can then do sudo?
03:58<ratrace>FelixActually: you log in as a user, so whatever user you log in, that's the password you use. also what somiaj said about root
03:58<somiaj>FelixActually: yes once you are logged in you can use sudo or su -
03:58<FelixActually>Thanks
03:58<ratrace>you can sudo if the user you logged in as is in the sudoers group (default setup) or however you've set up sudo to be used
03:59<FelixActually>My next question is, how can I automate the process of using dd a certain amount of times and then stopping?
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03:59<somiaj>FelixActually: what do you really want to do? This sounds like an XY problem.
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04:00<FelixActually>What do you mean?
04:00<somiaj>why do you want to dd a certain amount of times then stop
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04:01<somiaj>!xy problem
04:01<dpkg>Slow down for a bit! Are you sure that you need to jump through that particular hoop to achieve your goal? We suspect you don't, so why don't you back up a bit and tell us about the overall objective... We know that people often falsely diagnose problems because they are too close to them -- it's easy to miss that there is a better way to proceed. See http://mywiki.wooledge.org/XyProblem
04:01<FelixActually>I want to overwrite an external hard drive ten times with input from /dev/urandom (I was going to do it five times, but the computer I need to use is less powerful so I'm doing it five more times to compensate)
04:02<FelixActually>But I want it to be efficient
04:02<FelixActually>So I want it to do it without my input in case I'm asleep or something
04:02<FelixActually>Because I don't know how long it'll take
04:03<somiaj>there are porgrams that wipedisks so you don't need to manually run dd, but in this case you could do a simple loop in bash
04:03<FelixActually>How can I make the loop exit though?
04:03<FelixActually>I'll be AFK, I'll read what you said when I'm back
04:04<TheBigK>FelixActually: or i in {1..10}; do echo $i; done
04:04<TheBigK>*for i in ....
04:04<somiaj>in bash you could do 'for i in `seq 10`; do dd <whatever>; done` that will loop and run the same command 10 times
04:05<somiaj>oh {1..10} is probably better than `seq 10`
04:05<TheBigK>its hard to change habbits. :D
04:05<ratrace>but hobbits, on the other hand... ;)
04:05<TheBigK>hahaha :D
04:06<TheBigK>sorry for the miswritign
04:08<somiaj>you could also just use shred, it has options to overwrite with 0's on the last step, and do multiple passes, so shred -vfz -n 10 /dev/whatever
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04:21<kay_>msg NickServ register
04:22*somiaj hands kay an extra slash
04:23<kay_>Thank you! ;)
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04:57<FelixActually>somiaj: What does shred do specifically?
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05:00<jm_>https://manpages.debian.org/buster/coreutils/shred.1.en.html
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05:05<FelixActually>jm_: Is the default for --random-source /dev/urandom or do I need to specify that?
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05:09<ratrace>FelixActually: if you have fast drives and a lot of IO bandwidth, I'd recommend using LUKS and cat'ing /dev/zero into the mapper. Using (u)random will be much slower
05:09<ratrace>for typical SATA(2,3) HDDs, I suppose urandom will saturate the bandwidth so it doesn't matter
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05:10<FelixActually>ratrace: The computer that will be doing this is quite old. I'm not sure how much IO bandwidth it would have
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05:14<ratrace>actually I'm a bit wrong, urandom is still much slower than SATA HDDs sequential speeds. Just checked on a Xeon E3-1275, which is a moderately fast cpu, urandom bandwidth is half what the HDDs can take (~80 MB/s)
05:14<jm_>FelixActually: it uses /dev/urandom by default yes
05:14<ratrace>FelixActually: so if your CPU is not ivybridge or older (ie, has AESNI), I'd recommend creating a LUKS mapper and blasting /dev/zero into it
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05:15<jm_>FelixActually: ahh no, wrong, it only reads something from urandom and uses that for internal random source
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05:15<ratrace>PRNG seed probably
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05:15<FelixActually>ratrace: Is this just speed that would be affected though?
05:16<ratrace>yes, sequential write typically is very low on IOPS
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05:17<ratrace>here's the thing. blasting /dev/zero directly to teh drives, suffices for vast, vast majority of wiping use cases. data could be recovered from that only by very specialized and expensive forensic hardware, and even then it's a gamble and no guarantees
05:17<FelixActually>As long as it overwrites it effectively, the speed doesn't matter to me
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05:17<FelixActually>I'm sending the drive back to the manufacturer as it's faulty
05:17<ratrace>the idea behind randomizing the bits is to nuke the statistical aspect of the forensic recover and make it much much harder, if not impossible, to pick up patterns. that's military grade thing.
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05:18<ratrace>FelixActually: hold on. didn't you have that issue few days ago? :)
05:18<FelixActually>Also how do I block the computer from accessing the Internet, only allowing LAN connections?
05:19<ratrace>what with reserved sectors issue, SATA secure erase etc.... was that you?
05:19<FelixActually>I still haven't started what I need to do
05:19<FelixActually>Yes
05:19<FelixActually>I decided to go for the simple option
05:19<ratrace>did you even try the secure erase thing?
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05:19<ratrace>it's a hdparm invocation away, assuming the drives support it, and chances are they do
05:20<FelixActually>No, because it's a USB drive and I didn't want to risk bricking it
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05:21<ratrace>bricking the hdd by using secure erase is very unlikely
05:21<jm_>the dumbest method to kill internet access is to remove default route, otherwise you'll need to use firewall rules
05:23<FelixActually>jm_: What rules do I need?
05:23<jm_>FelixActually: https://askubuntu.com/questions/872852/block-internet-access-and-keep-lan-access-firewall
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05:25<FelixActually>Unfortunately I can't view that link as I don't trust Stack Overflow
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05:26<FelixActually>Also does the SSH server start when the computer is powered on?
05:27<jm_>by defualt it does in debian yes
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05:29<FelixActually>jm_: Do ethernet connections require configuration in a tty?
05:29<ratrace>what does "trust stack overflow" mean in this context?
05:30<FelixActually>Website paranoia :)
05:30<jm_>FelixActually: I am not sure I understand your question - do you mean if it's possible to configure it with a GUI?
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05:31<FelixActually>As in, does plugging in the cable connect me to my network automatically?
05:32<jm_>yeah you need to have at least some minimal configuration for that to work
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05:33<ratrace>iirc by default (using the installer) the eth NIC would be set up for DHCP, in which case the answer is yes
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05:40<felix>I don't know why I suddenly can't log in with my regular name here, but anyway
05:40<ratrace>you can now
05:40<felix>jm_: It said there was an error in processing openssh-server
05:41<ratrace>you probably had to ghost your previous, hung connection's nick
05:41<felix>"Bind to port 22 failed"
05:42<felix>It says "cannot assign requested address" after that
05:42<jm_>felix: is that with default sshd config or did you edit it?
05:42<felix>I didn't edit it
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05:43<felix>It's not even installed apparently
05:43<ratrace>felix: do you have any IP address set up at the moment?
05:44<ratrace>also, is something perchance already listening on port 22? thogh I guess the error message would be different, but check nonetheless lsof -i :22
05:44<ratrace>(as root)
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05:44<felix>The address it lists isn't the one of the machine when doing $ ip addr
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05:45<ratrace>felix: what addresses are those? methinks you should supply some pastebins. `ip a` for starters
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05:46<felix>ip addr lists 192.168.0.17 and the apt install openssh-server command listed .8, which I think is this machine's address
05:46<felix>Or not
05:47<felix>This one is .15 right now
05:47<grawity>"apt install" generally doesn't list your own address at all
05:47<grawity>"ip addr" does though
05:47<felix>It was an error during the install that appeared
05:47<ratrace>felix: I think you should pastebin ip a and the actual outputs you get from apt install openssh-server
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05:47<felix>I can't
05:48<ratrace>make a screenshot with your phone, post it on imgur
05:48<felix>I don't trust Imgur
05:48<jm_>haha
05:48<felix>I can type it, just wait
05:48<ratrace>...
05:48<dreamer>pastebin.com
05:48<dreamer>or whatever other paste website
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05:48<ratrace>there's plenty of other pasting sites. do you trust ANY of them .....
05:48<jm_>better use paste.debian.net
05:49<dreamer>also fine ^
05:49<ratrace>this is either trolling, or most ridiculous set of self-imposed constraints I've seen in a while
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05:50<felix>"Starting OpenBSD Secure Shell server" "error: Bind to port 22 on 192.168.0.8 failed: Cannot assign requested address" "fatal: cannot assign any address"
05:50<ratrace>starting with that made up fear that sata secure erase would "brick" the drive. if it did, then THAT alone is the reason to get a replacement disk.
05:50<ratrace>felix: the outputs I asked are `ip a` and everything you get from `apt install openssh-server`. feel free to spend the day typing those up.
05:51<felix>This is what is relevant during the install command
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05:51<ratrace>is this in a container
05:51<felix>It fails saying that and .8 isn't that machine's address
05:51<felix>No
05:51<ratrace>then that makes zero sense. output of `ip a` please
05:52<felix>.17/24 is the end of the address of the machine
05:52<felix>With $ ip addr
05:52<ratrace>do you have /etc/ssh/sshd_config perchance?
05:52<felix>I don't
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05:53<ratrace>you shouldn't, if you never installed openssh-server there. if you have, check if it forces a Listen on that, invalid, address
05:53<felix>cat says no such file
05:53<ratrace>felix: then what you're saying is impossible. openssh can't make up an address to bind, unless it's present on the system. so either you DO have that IP set up (output of `ip a` please), or you're making this up
05:54<felix>Sorry, I typed it wrong, that file exists
05:54<ratrace>you don't say
05:54<ratrace>and I bet you ten tonnes of tribbles it forces a Listen
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05:55<felix>There's no listen line
05:55<ratrace>ListenAddress
05:55<felix>There are only three uncommented lines and none say that
05:55<petn-randall>felix: It might also be a file in /etc/ssh/sshd_config.d/.
05:56<felix>No files are in that directory
05:57<ratrace>is that even debian
05:57<felix>What if I add a ListenAddress line with the right IP?
05:57<felix>Yes
05:57<ratrace>felix: you shouldn't use ListenAddress at all and leave defaults, unless you want to bind it to the LAN IP specifically
05:57<grawity>what if you delete all ListenAddress lines and just let it listen on the default :: and 0.0.0.0
05:58<felix>There are none there grawity
05:58<ratrace>but all this is wrong. you should first found how why is it trying to bind to a nonexisting address. you're giving incompelte information here
05:58<ratrace>*find *out
05:58<felix>Okay, how?
05:59<ratrace>pastebin complete output of `ip a` for starters
05:59<petn-randall>`grep -r 192.168.0.8 /etc/` would also yield something.
05:59<ratrace>stop cherry picking information you _think_ is relevant, and give complete output of the command
05:59<petn-randall>felix: Is this a docker container, or something like that?
05:59<felix>I'm in a text-only tty on that machine
05:59<felix>It's a physical machine
06:00<ratrace>felix: if you have access to public network, type this: ip a | nc termbin.com 9999 and post there the URL you get
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06:00<petn-randall>Ok, good to know. Because containers sometimes have weird network restrictions.
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06:01<ratrace>I already asked about containers, that was my first clue that adressing might be "off"
06:01<felix>Okay I'm a moron
06:01<felix>I was looking in ssh_config, not sshd_config
06:01<petn-randall>Ah!
06:02<petn-randall>felix: Glad to hear you found the mistake then.
06:02<felix>There's ListenAddress with the wrong IP there
06:02<felix>Should I just comment it out or what?
06:02<ratrace>yup
06:02<ratrace>leave defaults where possible, unless you really need to override
06:02<petn-randall>felix: It usually makes most sense to let it listen on all interfaces, unless you have a good reason not to.
06:03<felix>Also I can't do pageup in the tty for some reason
06:03<grawity>that used to be shift+pageup, but the whole feature was basically removed in recent kernels
06:04<felix>How come?
06:05<somiaj>just learn to use screen/tmux
06:05<felix>Also it seems to be working; do I need to verify the key fingerprint when it's only on the local network?
06:05<somiaj>Though unsure why it was removed, I figured this was more an artifact of getty and not the kernel though.
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06:06<Linux-Fan>I thought the framebuffer scrollback had been removed for security reasons, but this article says differently: https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Linux-5.9-Drops-Soft-Scrollback
06:07<ratrace>it was removed because there was no maintainer for the subsystem and bugs kept piling
06:07<ratrace>so Linux nerfed it
06:07<ratrace>*s
06:07<ratrace>you can use tmux or screen on the console to have more functional one
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06:08<somiaj>well hasn't that subsystem basically been replaced with kms anyways?
06:08<felix>How do I verify the ECDSA key fingerprint?
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06:10<ratrace>Linux-Fan: it was a security issue that triggered it, you're linking the wrong phoronix article
06:10<ratrace>iirc it was:
06:10<ratrace>!cve lookup CVE-2020-14390
06:10<dpkg>Information about the security advisory CVE-2020-14390 may be found at https://security-tracker.debian.org/tracker/CVE-2020-14390
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06:11<Linux-Fan>ratrace: Thanks, so my memory wasn't all wrong :)
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06:19<felix>Can anyone answer my question?
06:19<petn-randall>felix: You write down the fingerprint when you generate it, and compare it to the fingerprint when you connect to it.
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06:23<felix>petn-randall: I didn't generate it though; I installed the ssh server and tried to connect and it printed a fingerprint
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06:25<petn-randall>felix: Ok, in that case you can log in physically to the machine and look it up.
06:26<felix>I'mt currently logged into it. What do I do?
06:26<felix>*'m
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06:26<petn-randall>felix: Probably `ssh-keygen -l -f /etc/ssh/whatever_host_key_is_used`
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06:29<felix>petn-randall: How would I know which is used in a default install?
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06:31<petn-randall>felix: If you client shows you the fingerprint to the ecdsa key, then it will be /etc/ssh/ssh_host_ecdsa_key. Replace ecdsa in the file name for the other keys that might get used.
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06:31<petn-randall>felix: e.g. if you ssh client is too old, it might only know what to do with the rsa key.
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06:33<felix>petn-randall: Thanks a lot; the key was correct and it's working :)
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07:25<FelixActually>jm_: I have Debian Unstable on that other computer. Should I do an upgrade before I run this shred process in case there's some bug somewhere in the package versions I currently have that could cause an issue, or should I leave it?
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07:42<jm_>FelixActually: using unstable does not imply bugs are everywhere ...
07:42<FelixActually>Oh, sorry
07:42<FelixActually>I forgot to mention that I haven't upgraded it in possibly months as I haven't switched it on in months
07:42<FelixActually>So there are many many package updates
07:43<jm_>don't worry, use the version that is installed
07:43<FelixActually>What do you mean?
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07:44<jm_>use whichever version of coreutils is already installed, no need to upgrade first
07:45<FelixActually>But isn't it possible that there could be a bug somewhere which is fixed in the latest version of a certain package that could cause problems?
07:46<FelixActually>Considering how out-of-date the computer is
07:46<FelixActually>(With packages)
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07:47<jm_>shred is updated rarely
07:47<ratrace>It is. And it is possible that the latest version of a package also has new bugs. It's not called Sid for no reason :)
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07:53<FelixActually>Should I just replace unstable with stable before I do this, to be safer?
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07:56<ratrace>jesus friggin christ just dd the damned disk already and be done with it. you can't brick it with dd. not even with shred. nothing software side can brick the drive unless the drive firwmare is so buggy that it bricks itself
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07:57<koollman>or unless the drive was dying already
07:58<ratrace>both of which are valid and legal reasons to get disk replacement. FelixActually is concerned that <something> might "brick" the drive in a "warranty void" way. nuh-huh. ain't gonna happen unless the disk is SO BUGGY, which in itself is REASON to get a replacement under warranty.
07:58<koollman>I agree
07:59<FelixActually>Even though I initially told them it was working, but just abnormally slow compared to the other?
07:59<ratrace>YES
07:59<koollman>disks are made to be used. You shouldn't be afraid to use them :)
07:59<FelixActually>They might think I broke it intentionally if I send it back and it isn't working
07:59<ratrace>FelixActually: you have legal rights. nothing in the specs can allow "bricking". NOTHING.
07:59<koollman>if you manage to break it by sending commands to it, it has a flaw
07:59<ratrace>they may think that ANYWAY, if they want to be asses
07:59<FelixActually>Okay, but you don't have to yell
07:59<FelixActually>I know I can be persistently stupid sometimes but please
08:00<ratrace>it's just painful to see all these artificial constraints and inexisting problems made up for such a simple action of dd'ing, or shred'ing or even SATA secure erase
08:00<FelixActually>Like I said, I'm stupid
08:01<ratrace>not stupid just making up problems
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08:33<jelly>!bullseye pool
08:33<dpkg>See <bullseye pool 1> for bets placed on when Bullseye will release. To add one, ask me about <bullseye bet>.
08:33<jelly>!bullseye pool 1
08:33<dpkg>! antto=2021-07-07 räträcé=2021-06-13 jëlly=2021-06-06 themíll=2021-09-01
08:33<jelly>I could have sworn there were more people in there last time i looked
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08:46<Sark>So, I'm beating my head against a wall at this point, I can't figure out why the middle mouse button won't work correctly, and it's a consistent, persistant problem - even on this new install I did yesterday.
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08:47<omegatron>you can rule out some hardware defect? like hairs or grease inside the mouse ?
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08:48<Sark>The symptom is that you can't click and hold the middle button and move the cursor - it just sticks in place. Furthermore, the button press never registers with X - when you release the button, it behaves as if the button was pressed and released immediately.
08:48<Sark>It's not a hardware problem, as it has happened with four different mice.
08:48<Sark>Across three different computers.
08:48<omegatron>I see
08:48<omegatron>well, i have similar mouse issues here with my five-button mouse (though this iskubunut 18.0.4)
08:48<Sark>It only affects three button mice, and it only affects the middle button.
08:48<Sark>Two button mice work as expected.
08:49<Sark>To be fair, I don't have a five button mouse.
08:49<omegatron>it seems in about 40% of all left-click-and-move, shortly afterwards the OS thinks I have released the button
08:50<Sark>Oh, that sounds like a hardware problem honestly - a flakey button - I have had that before as the switch wears out, it causes bounce.
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08:50<Sark>In this case it's literally *every* time.
08:50<Sark>There is literally no way to bring up one of the menus in xterm, for instance.
08:50<omegatron>yeah, I also think it's hardware in my case (though the mouse is quite new - some months old)
08:50<omegatron>that's awful in your case
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08:51<Sark>You can take it apart and replace the switch itself - I've had to fix a lot of mice like that. A friend wore out the left button on multiple identical Logitech trak-ball mice. I repaired them for him because they don't make them any more and he really likes that model. Heh.
08:51<omegatron>=)
08:53<Sark>But I'm really at a loss here with why I can't use the middle button at all. If I bring up xev, I can see a buttonpress event for the left button, release, buttonrelease event. Same for the right button. Middle button... clicking produces absolutely nothing in xev. Releasing it produces a buttonpress and a buttonrelease right after one another.
08:54<Sark>And while the middle button is held down I can't move the cursor - but yet moving the mouse updates the position in xev.
08:54<omegatron>some borked udev rule maybe ?
08:54<Sark>err, wait - no, it doesn't. This is weird.
08:54<Sark>It's scrolling stuff, but they're continuous buttonpress/buttonrelease events for nonexistent buttons.
08:55<omegatron>did you plug them all in the same usb port?
08:55<Sark>If I move the mouse up, I get buttonpress/release for 4, down is 5, left is 6, and right is 7.
08:55<Sark>No.
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08:56<Sark>I've tried multiple ports, I've tried the ports on the USB card. On the one computer it's a PS/2 mouse.
08:56<omegatron>and you are also sure no malware is involved?
08:56<Sark>This is a clean install from yesterday.
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08:56<Sark>And it happened immediately. So it would have to be some plucky malware.
08:57<omegatron>so, same pc hardware, but same result with different mice .. ? all mice of the same vendor?
08:57<Sark>Problem is, I don't really understand how the Linux input stuff works these days.
08:57<Sark>I have tried four mice - two Sun mice, an SGI mouse, and a Logitech mouse - although, Logitech actually made the SGI mouse... not sure who actually made the Sun mouse, to be honest.
08:58<omegatron>and it's not some bleeding edge kernel you installed ?
08:58<omegatron>or with some .. exotic .. configuration ?
08:59<Sark>Sun mice are USB... Logitech and SGI mice are PS/2 - tried mostly with a converter, but I think the one PC I had it on the onboard port - this has been going on for years, so I honestly can't remember what all combinations I've tried. It *used* to work with like Debian 8 and 9.
08:59<Sark>No, this is stock Debian Stable, installed from the NetInst disc.
08:59<Sark>4.19.0-16-amd64
09:00<omegatron>like this: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/1581088 ?
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09:01<omegatron>their 'fix' was to stop xev - did you try that once ?
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09:03<omegatron>or rather #91 and #95 ..
09:03<omegatron>but it looks similar
09:04<Sark>It's definitely a very similar problem to the one I'm having/have been having. I was not able to get any success messing with xev like they mention, however.
09:05<Sark>xev is just an event viewer, it shouldn't really affect the performance of the mouse itself, correct?
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09:05<Sark>I mean, the middle click registers and always has - I can middle click paste, for instance. But you can't click and hold it down. And nothing registers until the button is released.
09:05<omegatron>more or less yes, man page says "print contents of X events"
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09:10<jm_>you could also use evtest to test to rule out X
09:12<Sark>Ah - evtest - I did not know that was a thing.
09:13<Sark>I just installed it and checked - it responds to the mouse properly. Registers the press when the middle button is clicked, and release when released.
09:13<Sark>So it's X.
09:14<jm_>interesting, which driver is X using for mouse?
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09:14<Sark>Hrm. How do I check that? This is where I don't understand the Linux input system really, and a part of my confusion.
09:14<jm_>look in /var/log/Xorg.0.log
09:15<Sark>event4 - HID 0430:0100: is tagged by udev as: Mouse
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09:16<Sark>Using input driver 'libinput' for 'HID 0430:0100'
09:16<jm_>for me it says Loading /usr/lib/xorg/modules/input/libinput_drv.so
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09:16<jm_>that looks OK to me
09:17<Sark>It's registering two mice, both with libinput, since it's picking up the PS/2 USB adapter that I've got the keyboard plugged into as well, but there's no mouse there (if there is, it's middle button doesn't work either...)
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09:22<Sark>Just tried Yet Another Mouse (tm). Also does not work. This one is a Logitech, also USB, but this one is optical.
09:22<Sark>Same exact behavior.
09:23<omegatron>also if you unplug the keyboard ?
09:23<omegatron>i know, a wild guess, but ...
09:23<omegatron>if ps/2 AND usb is involved ..
09:24<Sark>OK, unplugged the keyboard and it's adapter, and plugged in an actual USB keyboard.
09:24<Sark>No change,.
09:24<Sark>Other than that this thing is terrible to type on... lol
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09:26<omegatron>and without any keyboard ?
09:26<omegatron>=D
09:26<Sark>Yeah, tried without any keyboard before plugging in the USB one.
09:26<omegatron>ok
09:27<omegatron>hmm, maybe it's time to call the veterinarian and shoot the poor thing
09:27<omegatron>(the mainboard)
09:27<Sark>And, like, this PC is nothing weird. It's a Dell Optiplex 390. About as boring as PCs can get.
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09:27<Sark>I've tried multiple computers though.
09:27<Sark>It's not the PC itself.
09:27<omegatron>so, another os is not an option?
09:27<Sark>And this is a clean install on a second PC (identical to my main PC, I have like 20 of these things)
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09:28<omegatron>are you living right under a high-power line?
09:28<Sark>I'm not going to use Windows just to get my middle mouse button to work.
09:28<omegatron>or near some radar emitters ?
09:28<Sark>lol
09:28<omegatron>no, not windows - another linux distro
09:28<omegatron>maybe with some 5.x kernel
09:29<omegatron>just to try it ... with some live-linux from usb pen drive
09:29<Sark>I might try that if I can't figure this out.
09:29<Sark>I don't want to stop using Debian just because of some obscure mouse bug.
09:30<Sark>This used to work fine, years ago - I haven't really changed my PC hardware very much. Middle button used to work fine when I ran Debian 8, and 9, from what I remember. I don't recall precisely at what point it broke.
09:30<omegatron>there are still other, though somewhat annoying choices, like ignoring the middle mouse button and define some action to a keyboard button to perform the middle-mouse click
09:31<Sark>Years ago there used to be a mode to emulate the middle button by clicking both left and right buttons at once.
09:31<omegatron>(coming from someone who works with three keyboards attached to his work computer, just to have enough keys for special actions)
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09:32<omegatron>ah yes, I remember
09:32<Sark>I don't know how to enable that any more though, the Linux inputs system has changed a lot since I last had to mess with it.
09:32<Sark>For the longest time everything Just Worked.
09:32<Sark>I haven't had to manually craft an Xfree86.conf file, for instance.
09:33<Sark>Well, I guess that's not true, I did have to make an xorg.conf to fix the bug where the control alt backspace no longer works.
09:33<Sark>But that's beside the point. Input hasn't been an issue until the middle mouse button stopped working. lol
09:34<Sark>I mean, I've been working around it for at least a year now - I modified my config to move the middle button menu into the right button menu and combine stuff. And I just.. haven't been using the other features of xterm.
09:34<Sark>But I'd like to fix it!
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09:43<Sark>I am kind of impressed how well Linux handles having two mice - you can drag them in opposite directions at the same time and they smoothly "fight" while cooperating, if that makes any sense. Weird.
09:43<omegatron>ah well, at least in Mac OS X that works too.. don't know how Windows handles it
09:44<Sark>I haven't seen a Windows machine in a decade, but I do remember trying that and the cursor being all jumpy but still basically doing the same thing.
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09:44<Sark>This is just real smooth.
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09:44<Sark>It's interesting. Something you don't often think to try, since how often do you have two mice connected at once?
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09:45<omegatron>happens here sometimes (because too many machines and keyboards/mice and other inout devices)
09:47<omegatron>I mean, right now, I'm working at six machines, more or less at the same time - though five of them remotely, but still in the same room - I have to switch places sometimes and I just cleaned up the place .. looked quite messy yesterday, where I could actually happen, that I accidently plugged more than one keyboard or mouse to one machine
09:47<Sark>hehe
09:48<Sark>I do have a bunch of machines I use remotely. But those simply never have a keyboard, mouse, or monitor connected in the first place.
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10:09<dinar>hello. when i installed debian netinst and left wifi setup stage, and booted to the installed system, how to connect to wifi?
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10:12<dinar>maybe it is not possible without connecting via lan first. i tried https://wiki.debian.org/WiFi/HowToUse but packages are missing
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10:32<Sqrt{not}>dinar, what packages are missing?
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10:37<scorpion2185[m]>petn-randall: yes it s as I said failure with exit-code.
10:37<dinar>wpasupplicant, iw,iwd, networkmanager, wireless-tools. Sqrt{not}
10:37<scorpion2185[m]>triggering on failure dependenices
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11:37<scorpion2185[m]>How can I check the packages in a DE installed with tasksel?
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11:45<somiaj>scorpion2185[m]: you can try apt-rdepends on the metapackage
11:46<somiaj>,i apt-rdepends
11:46<judd>Package apt-rdepends (utils, optional) in buster/amd64: recursively lists package dependencies. Version: 1.3.0-6; Size: 14.3k; Installed: 40k; Homepage: http://www.sfllaw.ca/programs; Screenshot: https://screenshots.debian.net/package/apt-rdepends; O: #871954
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11:57<Thalheim>known issues with debian.org/.net?
11:58<omegatron>you mean the webpage? all normal here ..
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12:04<Thalheim>omegatron: www.debian.net tries to redirect to debian.org but us using the .org certificate in the first place.
12:04<Thalheim>s/us/is
12:05<omegatron>let me guess: you are using https://www.debian.net/ instead of http://www.debian.net/
12:06<omegatron>I assume you are using a recent browser?
12:07<Avocato>https://www.debian.net also gives me the following:
12:07<Avocato>NET::ERR_CERT_COMMON_NAME_INVALID
12:07<Avocato>Subject: debian.org
12:07<somiaj>Thalheim: You could report an issue to debian-www@lists.debian.org that https://www.debian.net is using a differnt cert.
12:07<omegatron>but anyway, yes, https://www.debian.net is misconfigured, by not having its own ssl certificate (ssl-stuff happens before http redirections, therefore it requires its own certificate)
12:07<Sqrt{not}>Sark, you could download live-system .iso images of some debian 9 and debian 8 systems, and try your mice experiments in those environments
12:08<somiaj>Personally just use debian.org (debian.net is more for foo.debian.net addresses)
12:08<Sark>Sqrt{not}: I might have to. This is getting really frustrating, because I just can't figure out why this isn't working.
12:08<Sark>It's so strange that it's done it with multiple mice, on multiple computers and even a clean install from the absolute latest Stable.
12:08<omegatron>hmm, indeed - but http://www.debian.net works by redirecting to the correct url
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12:10<Sqrt{not}>Sark, there should still even be point release versions of jessie and stretch, for a rough kind of bisecting, if you find old versions that do work the way you expect
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12:10<Avocato>I have upgraded my test machine to Bullseye. No problems so far.
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12:11<Avocato>At work, I can't visit any website that uses a Let's Encrypt certificate, it tells me all issued certificates were revoked. I think it's some kind of group policy or so.
12:12<somiaj>That's strange, espically since they are so common, did you file a tick with your OIT?
12:12<grawity>Avocato: what do the certificates look like?
12:13<grawity>I wonder if they're actually real LE certificates
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12:18<omegatron>grawity: what is a "real" LE certificate? you mean one, that has not been certified against their staging/test server?
12:18<Avocato>https://pastebin.com/raw/2Yhjpng3
12:18<grawity>one that isn't issued by your workplace's "HTTPS interception" nonsense lol
12:19<omegatron>ah
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12:20<Avocato>I think it's some weird group poloicy at work. it works at home.
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12:21<omegatron>hm, I get a plain SSL_ERROR_BAD_CERT_DOMAIN error, not a _REVOKED_ error ..
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12:22<Avocato>Like I said, it works at home. We use Windows clients at work and it's common in the Windows world that blocked CA are locally marked as being revoked in group policy.
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12:23<omegatron>yep, looks like it
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12:29<nelsonjr>Greetings
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12:30<nelsonjr>to report that i install debian 10 in a lenovo ideapad 3 with the help of the backports repository.i install the linux kernel version 5 and
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12:31<nelsonjr>the laptop boots, even the lxqt desktop
12:31<somiaj>Gratz!!
12:31<somiaj>!win nelsonjr
12:31<dpkg>Congratulations, nelsonjr! You have won the time-life collection of vintage AOL CDs, a set of 120!
12:32<nelsonjr>XD cool, oh no the ideapad does not even come with optical reader
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12:35<somiaj>nelsonjr: target practice
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12:36<cargova>nginx CVE-2021-23017 <= The public report right now on oss-security mentioned that confirmed patched versions are just 1.21.0 and 1.20.1. 1.14 from Debian 10 will get a patch, right?
12:37<somiaj>cargova: https://security-tracker.debian.org/tracker/CVE-2021-23017 -- No info yet, but follow it there
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12:37<cargova>somiaj: thanks!
12:38<somiaj>cargova: The security team will judge the severity/necessity to patch stable, then backport a patch if they can. This of course takes time, but debian is open about what it is doing.
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12:38<bremner>does anyone know if python-paramiko (as used by duplicity) uses ~/.ssh/config?
12:40<somiaj>cargova: https://mailman.nginx.org/pipermail/nginx-announce/2021/000300.html -- do you use the 'resolver' directive?
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12:41<somiaj>cargova: anyways, just keep your eye on the security tracker, that will let you know about debian's response and if they decide to patch it or not.
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12:48<bremner>I guess the answer to my question is probably not, but I think the real issue is #935038
12:48<judd>Bug https://bugs.debian.org/935038 in python-paramiko (open): «duplicity: fails with Invalid key but ssh works, and pexpect+scp: works»; severity: important; opened: 2019-08-18; last modified: 2019-08-18.
12:49<bremner>or at least I'm getting the same errors from duplicity
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12:52<Sark>Sqrt{not}: So, I downloaded some live CD images, burned them, and booted an identical computer with them. Debian 8.9.0, the mouse worked perfectly as it should. Debian 9.13.0 - mouse is broken, current behavior where only the right and left buttons work correctly.
12:52<bremner>let my try a newer paramiko
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12:53<Sark>And I think it coincides with the introduction of libinput. In Debian 8, it was using evdev.
12:53<omegatron>Sark: computers make you ... funnier .. =D
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12:54<Sark>?
12:54<omegatron>they are like the ancient gods: full of rules and no mercy
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12:55<Redentor>Do the evolution.
12:55<Sark>Debian 9.13.0: https://i.imgur.com/UvruSgW.jpg Debian 8.9.0: https://i.imgur.com/Gs5XHRx.jpg
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12:56<Sark>So... can I change current Debian to use evdev instead?
12:56<Sark>Since libinput obviously doesn't work?
12:57<somiaj>Sark: yes
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12:58<somiaj>I don't know the details, but create a xorg.conf snippet, /etc/X11/xorg.conf.d/30-evdev.conf, and put the Section in there required to make xorg use evdev
12:59<somiaj>Sark: https://xorg-team.pages.debian.net/xorg/howto/configure-input.html -- scroll down to evdev configuration, that section (or somethign similar) should work
12:59<somiaj>of course adjust to your needs
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13:00<Sark>OK - yeah, I'll give that a shot. Might also fire up the working live CD again and just see what it's config files look like, since the mouse works fine there.
13:00<somiaj>Sark: it most likely dones't have one
13:00<somiaj>xorg hasn't had configuration files for quite some time, most things are autodetected
13:01<Sark>Yeah - that's just it - everything has been autodetected and "just worked" for so long, I have absolutely no clue how input devices work in X any more, since I haven't had to create or edit config files for so long.
13:02<Sark>So when there's a bug in something as basic as mouse functionality, I don't know how to work aroudn it. heh.
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13:04<Sark>somiaj: Yup, you were right, that live image does not have any config files for X.
13:05<Sark>No xorg.conf, no xorg.conf.d
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13:11<Sark>somiaj: Fixed it. That was it. I just installed evdev and uninstalled the defective libinput.
13:11<bremner>apparently paramiko needs PEM format ssh keys
13:12<bremner>boo
13:12<Sark>So - problem solved. It's a bug in libinput.
13:12<Sark>Works perfectly now.
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13:12<somiaj>Sark: report a bug (or check for bugs?)
13:13<Sark>This is great, since this has been annoying me for a very long time.
13:13<somiaj>Sark: did that work without an xorg.conf file? Anyways I would still suggest having an xorg.conf file and installing libinput (it does more than just mice), and then configure your mouse to use evdev
13:14<Sark>Correct - I did not set up any config files, I just installed evdev and uninstalled libinput and it just picked up on it and worked.
13:15<Sark>What else does libinput do? And why would I keep it around if it's obviously buggy, broken code that nobody is maintaining? I mean, this has been a problem for years.
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13:18<somiaj>libinput deals with any input device, keyboards, mice, trackpads, touchpads, and is overall considered more mature and versitile than evdev (note it isn't 100% better as in your case)
13:18<somiaj>so I would instead of just removing libinput, just force your mouse which has problems to use evdev instead
13:19<somiaj>Note, if your solution works, go for it, I'm just trying to state a bit more versitile solution so you can have both evdev and libinput for the devices that each one needs
13:20<Sark>Makes sense, but I only have one mouse and one keyboard, and have no reason to attach more than one of either (except of course earlier when I was trying to figure out why the heck the mouse doesn't work).
13:20<Sark>This has been a problem I've fought with and worked around for over a year. I've asked here multiple times, and nobdy has ever been able to figure it out.
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13:21<Sark>It wasn't until Sqrt{not} suggested booting up older live CD's that I thought to try that - and I really don't know why it didn't come to me earlier, since it's pretty obvious in retrospect.
13:22<somiaj>Most of us the swich to evdev to libinput was seamless and we probably just overlooked it happened.
13:22<Sark>But I digress. Doing that, looking at the log files - and I *finally* figured it out. So, as far as my system goes - problem solved, I have no need for libinput.
13:22<somiaj>Hence, we forget that there are certain situations where going back to evdev might actually be useful.
13:22<Sark>I just find it hard to believe nobody thought to click the middle button in these years.
13:22<Sark>I can't be the ONLY one who likes to enable scrollbars on xterms.
13:22<somiaj>what do you mean? The middle button works just fine for me, I click it all the time
13:23<Sark>Mine did not.
13:23<somiaj>I don't enable scroll bars, but scrolling up and down scrolls xterms just fine.
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13:23<somiaj>and I use the middle button to paste
13:23<Sark>Middle click paste worked, but the problem was that when you clicked the middle button, it did not register a button down event.
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13:23<Sark>It registered a button down and button up event in quick succession when the button was released.
13:24<Sark>And while you had the button held down, you couldn't move the cursor - it would stick in place.
13:24<Sark>So if you only middle click paste you'd never notice it.
13:24<somiaj>So you hold the middle mouse button then move your mouse to scroll?
13:24<AndroUser>How do. I install kde on 10.9.0 amdx86-64?
13:24<somiaj>I just use the mouse wheel
13:24<Sark>But if you like to configure middle button menus in your window manager, or if you use the middle button menu of xterm... you can't. At all.
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13:25<somiaj>I use the middle mouse button for menus in fvwm with no issues what so ever either
13:25<somiaj>I use the middle mouse button for lots of different things, and never noticed an issue with libinput
13:26<Sark>By default, xterm has no scroll bar, and you usually don't need or want it. But when you do, you hold down control, middle click the window, and enable it in that menu.
13:26<somiaj>!install kde
13:26<dpkg>The 'kde-standard' package gets you the common set-up, 'kde-plasma-desktop' and 'kde-plasma-netbook' provide minimal KDE 4 setups with respective flavouring, and 'kde-full' installs everything KDE 4. To install using Debian-Installer (if not using KDE CD-1): from the 'Software selection' dialog, choose "KDE" (use space bar to toggle selections), then "Continue".
13:26<Sark>But you can't with the defective libinput.
13:26<Sark>Because it makes it impossible to hold down the middle button, and impossible to move the mouse while the button is held down.
13:26<somiaj>AndroUser: you really can't choose what version version you get, you get the version that comes with the release of debian you are using.
13:27<somiaj>booting up my laptop, but I have never experience any of those issues
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13:27<swift110>How do I uprade to the latest debian version
13:27<swift110>How do I uprade to the latest debian version/
13:27<somiaj>swift110: what debian version are you running?
13:27<Sark>Right, a laptop doesn't have a middle button so you'd not notice that. I'm using a mouse.
13:27<Sark>On a desktop.
13:28<somiaj>I use a mouse with a middle mouse button,
13:28<somiaj>I don't like touchpads
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13:28<AndroUser>Thanks dpkg, what do i enter at the command prompt to install kde?
13:28<swift110>somiaj, buster
13:28<AndroUser>Thanks domiaj
13:28<Sark>Ah, OK. Well - I tried at least four different mice and none of them worked. Across three different computers, one of which was a clean install yesterday. All nonfunctional. Obviously not a hardware problem, because changing to evdev fixed it.
13:29<somiaj>swift110: that is the lastest debian version
13:29<Sark>And even with libinput, you could use evtest and it would correctly report the button being pressed when it was pressed.
13:29<Sark>Whereas xev would not report the button being pressed when it was pressed.
13:30<Sark>So, I dunno. Don't know why libinput doesn't work for me, it could simply be that nobody actually bothered to try it with a three button mouse.
13:30<somiaj>Sark: how do you enable the scroll bar in xterm, sure in my setup clicking the middle mouse button in xterm doesn't scroll, but I can still move the mouse
13:31<Sark>Hold down the control key, and click and hold the middle button. A menu appears.
13:31<somiaj>I just use the mouse wheel to scroll
13:31<Sark>Top option is "Enable scrollbar"
13:31<Sark>So you don't have a three button mouse.
13:31<somiaj>well the mouse wheel is the middle mouse button
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13:32<Sark>Sort of. It's a wheel that can be clicked. Not really a button.
13:32<somiaj>but anyways, I only get a menu with ctrl-left click and ctrl right-click, wonder if the issue is more with xterm (vs libinput) and you should file a bug, this is just not a way I use
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13:32<somiaj>It is, when you click the mouse wheel, it sends a mouse button 2 event, which is the middle mouse button
13:33<Sark>What menus are you getting? Control left click is main options, control right click is Unicode Fonts, control middle click is VT options.
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13:33<Sark>Either way - the middle button did not work in the window manager either, or in xev, and xterm or no, I should still be able to hold the middle button down and move the mouse.
13:34<somiaj>well here the middle mouse button (button 2) works fine in my wm, I see it in xev and so forth
13:34<Sark>The symptom I had was that because it does a buttonpress/release immediately in succession after releasing the button, you couldn't get the menu to appear - if you spammed the button hard enough and fast enough, you could get it to flicker onto the screen for a split second.
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13:36<somiaj>Outside of xterm (Which I think I disabled the middle mouse button due to tmux and pasting) my middle mouse button works just fine
13:36<Sark>So you have a setup that works, using libinput? Maybe it's something more tied to your hardware?
13:36<Sark>I tried three different computers, but they were all Dell machines.
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13:37<Sark>Or it could be simply that it's a bug that only hits three button mice.
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13:37<somiaj>I don't see why, button 2 is button 2 no matter if you use a mouse wheel or not, same event is being sent.
13:38<Sark>I tred multiple mice too - two Sun mice, a Logitech PS/2 mouse, an SGI PS/2 mouse (also Logitech, really), and a Logitech USB (optical) mouse. None of them worked.
13:38<somiaj>Though do you have no mice with wheels? I really haven't seen three button mice as a commonly available thing in a while, again it maybe a bug, report it
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13:38<Sark>They aren't commonly available, which is why I've had to hunt for them. Heh.
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13:39<somiaj>report a bug, and it could be that they do something different (though unsure why), I guess I would prefer to have a wheel myself
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13:39<Sark>And why finding one that's USB *and* optical is so difficult, and my standard mouse is the Sun one, since it's USB and doesn't need an adapter - it's mechanical, but who cares.
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14:19<scorpion2185[m]>somiaj: for cinnamon what's the metapkg?
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14:23<jmcnaught>scorpion2185[m]: task-cinnamon-desktop
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14:26<AndroUser>Hello
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14:27<mana>800+ users no one has anything the say?
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14:28<jmcnaught>mana: hello, this is a tech support channel for Debian, if you need help just ask a question.
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14:31<scorpion2185[m]>I used `apt-rdepends task-cinnamon-desktop` , but it shows come not installed pkgs from tasksel
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14:55<pasiciar>hellow
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15:04<jhutchins>mana: We try to keep the channel on the topic of debian support. There is #debian-offtpic for socialising.
15:04<jhutchins>mana: And yeah, sometimes it makes for a dead channel.
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15:07<mana>Fear enough, I should have found this place 10 years ago. Very happy to be here.
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15:13<somiaj>scorpion2185[m]: I don't think apt-rdepends chases down all recommended packages, so if package a recommends package b it will state that, but then it won't state what package (b) actually depends/recommends
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15:13<somiaj>scorpion2185[m]: http://manpages.ubuntu.com/manpages/bionic/man1/apt-rdepends.1.html -- you can use the --follow= directive to state what depends type that are followed, so you may want to add Recommends to the list.
15:14<somiaj>scorpion2185[m]: ahh same thing with --show, you may want to add recommends to that list, since recommends are installed by default
15:16<somiaj>scorpion2185[m]: as usually you should 'man apt-rdepends' to make sure you understand what it is doing or see what options you have when using tools
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15:21<jhutchins>mana: Sorry, I have PMs disabled due to some spam problems on oftc.
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15:31<ryouma>when doing a dist-upgrade, surely a lot of packge are removed. can you set them to be purged? at least if they were auto installed?
15:31<somiaj>ryouma: try with --purge
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15:32<somiaj>thoug I persoanly just remove them after with dpkg -l | grep ^rc
15:32<somiaj>ryouma: though do you run debian stable, dist-upgrade shouldn't be removing lots of packages.
15:34<sney>aptitude can do it too, with 'aptitude purge ~c'
15:34<sney>I run that every couple of months to clean up, it usually gets a couple of kernel packages at least
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15:36<ryouma>from stretch. but if those tricks are equivalent, i will do that. except i have only 1.7g available on / so idk.
15:36<ryouma>thanks
15:37<ryouma>i was thinking of moving / to a larger partition on same drive but...
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15:40<somiaj>sney: wonder if the new apt in bullseye can do that too
15:40<somiaj>https://manpages.ubuntu.com/manpages/focal/man7/apt-patterns.7.html
15:41<somiaj>yea, seems apt purge ~c will now work from apt 2.0 onward
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15:43<sney>oh, nice
15:43<somiaj>ryouma: you may not want to auto --purge during a dist-upgrade either, maybe something gets removed that you still want the config files for
15:43<sney>I wonder what other flags it supports
15:43<sney>(oh, I see they are listed.)
15:43<somiaj>sney: that man page (if on bulleye man apt-patters) lists them all including the differences between aptitude
15:43<somiaj>apt-patterns
15:44<fmneto>That looks like #debian-next talk
15:44<somiaj>fmneto: with the release so close, bullseye is welcome here, if even to get user use to new features/changes
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15:44<fmneto>somiaj, fair enough :)
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15:45<somiaj>We usually start supporting the next release in the final months of the freeze in #debian, since during that point it is mostly stable, and it helps test things beter
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15:46<ryouma>is buster to bullseye about the same as stretch to buster and jessie to stretch? (in complexity, space increase, bugs, stuff to watch for.)
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15:47<somiaj>ryouma: It is similar but you should always read the release notes, it lets you know about specific things
15:47<sney>it's roughly the same process (change sources.list, disable 3rd party repos, apt update, apt upgrade, apt full-upgrade) but there will always be little differences
15:47<somiaj>espically around specific software and changes that break things
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15:48<fmneto>You should watch out for python stuff for example
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15:52<sney>there was an issue with upgrading to gcc-10 a few months ago that was resolved for most configurations, but it might still be possible if you have any held toolchain packages or something else unusual in that realm
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15:53<sney>but anything major will be documented in the release notes, and should be smooth, or at least easy to work around if you've upgraded debian before.
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15:56<jmcnaught>The draft bullseye release notes are public and already detail lots of the changes and additions: https://www.debian.org/releases/bullseye/amd64/release-notes/
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15:56<jmcnaught>Chapters 2 (What's new) and 5 (Issues to be aware of)
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16:03<ratrace>nice!
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16:09<sney>I wonder if 5.1.4 is what caused that weird issue with the person using bad passwords (iirc '12345') on an airgapped system a little while ago
16:10<somiaj>sney: could be, though hope it was more a rare occurence, as stated copying hashes backwards won't work, but forward should.
16:11<sney>indeed. I don't see anything in crypt(5) about minimum length either.
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16:12<somiaj>the only way that could have an effect is if for somereason the part of the hash identifying what 'type' it was was not read correctly?
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16:13<ratrace>wow lilo's out of bullseye, end of an era
16:13<somiaj>I still have some super old passwords on some of my systems in which are $1$hash vs $6$hash, so I assume maybe $<unkown>$hash identifies new yescrypt hases
16:14<somiaj>and maybe if that inital part was defomred or not present the system would default to the wrong hash type?
16:14<grawity>libxcrypt's crypt(5) says $y$ is yescrypt
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16:14<somiaj>ratrace: guess it was too hard to keep around, and wonder who actually still uses lilo, most were glad to be done with it once grub stabalized a bit
16:14*sney pours one out for LILILILILILILILILILILILILILILILILILILILI
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16:15*sarnold has flashbacks
16:16<ratrace>somiaj: no doubt. :)
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16:17<fmneto>It's impressive that LILO's in buster still.
16:17<jmcnaught>judd: popcon lilo
16:17<judd>Popcon data for lilo: inst: 427, vote: 57, old: 357, recent: 13, nofiles: 0
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16:17<fmlatghor>has debian always been on oftc?
16:17<somiaj>!oftc move
16:17<dpkg>irc.debian.org moved to OFTC on June 4th 2006, see http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2006/05/msg00012.html. Operators and bots (see <fact sharing>) are in both networks for the time being; you're welcome to either move to OFTC with i.d.o or stay on freenode. Questions? Ask in #debian on one or other network. See also http://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2006/04/msg00333.html
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16:17<fmlatghor>ah
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16:17<fmlatghor>So the freenode chan was unoffical?
16:17<sney>we left freenode before it was cool ;)
16:17<somiaj>though a lot of development channels moved before that
16:18<somiaj>well 2005/6 was another drama with freenode (didn't lilo quite for a bit -- speaking of lilo)
16:18<fmneto>I wonder who installs LILO in 2021. And why
16:18<sney>#debian channels on non-OFTC networks are maintained for convenience or legacy reasons. there's one on libera too
16:18<ratrace>fmneto: slackware users :)
16:18<somiaj>!fact sharing
16:18<dpkg>I show the same facts on both <freenode> and <OFTC>. If you update a fact on one network, it will show up on the other network.
16:19<somiaj>Although we prefer that users use OFTC, we have chosen to be a part of other networks to share the resources vs just let it be the wild west and completely unoffical
16:19<fmlatghor>yea
16:19<fmlatghor>makes sense
16:19<alex11>i've asked stuff on freenode before (generally whatever channel is less busy at the time)
16:19<alex11>soooooory :P
16:19<alex11>rr*
16:20<sney>somiaj: yes, I thought I remembered some drama re freenode management back then as well. it's not mentioned in those d-d-a posts so I wondered if I was mixing it up with a different irc schism
16:20<somiaj>alex11: many are in multiple channels, as logn as you aren't cross posting.
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16:20*sney is currently in 3 #debian channels
16:20<sarnold>somiaj: lilo started begging for money every few hours back in the day
16:20<somiaj>sney: I think the drama was partly indepednet and not the main reason for OFTC, but maybe enough of a reason to finally pull the plug.
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16:20<fmlatghor>sarnold: liloaid?
16:20<sarnold>fmlatghor: hehehe
16:21<somiaj>sney: and of course, offical posts are usually often nice
16:21<sney>yes, diplomatic, we don't need to preserve the salt for future generations
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16:22<fmlatghor>so is lilo begging for money the "philosophical differences"
16:22<fmlatghor>https://www.linux.com/news/freenode-and-oftc-irc-networks-buddy/
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16:32<fmneto>So are debian channels going to remain in freedone for the time being?
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16:35<somiaj>s/channels/channel/ (there is only one)
16:35<azeem>there were no offical Debian channel on Freenode before
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16:36<somiaj>The ops are discussing what to do, right now we are in the 'encourage users to use OFTC' phase
16:36<somiaj>!debian irc
16:36<dpkg>The offical Debian IRC network is OFTC (irc.debian.org or irc.oftc.net). Please join OFTC to connect with debian support and development communities. See https://wiki.debian.org/IRC for a list of channels. See also <oftc>, <oftc move>, <libera>, and <freenode>.
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16:37<nirgoe>hi everybody
16:37<fmneto>I have no idea about debian channels in freenode. I haven't used it in years.
16:37-!-AndroUser2 [~androirc@107.161.4.72] has joined #debian
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16:37<fmneto>Still, with said bot integration between the two networks I started wondering. Which is why I asked.
16:38<somiaj>currently dpkg/judd are in #debian on freenode, that may change, still waiting to see how the pieces fall.
16:39<somiaj>Though anyways, enough freenode drama for the time, lets try to stick more with debian support. Everyone here is in the best place for debian support, congratz!!
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16:40<fmneto>Fair enough.
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16:40<somiaj>!win oftc
16:40<dpkg>Congratulations, oftc! You have won the US presidency!
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16:40<sney>yeesh, I hope that's refundable.
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16:41<nirgoe>im searching about a guide to how secure systemd-nspawn containers but not found any good resource. Do you have any link o documentation that can help with this task? I dont want the work done, just some guidance for look futher
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16:49<BCMM>given that the bot is on libera now, perhaps the !fact sharing text should be updated
16:49<somiaj>yup, though waiting to see what becomes of freenode first.
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16:56<ComplyLast> /nickserv register gTi5;X&U%uSxpmwz`?7c$Mw-*D 7xh93zg60@relay.firefox.com
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16:56<ComplyLast>oops
16:56<ComplyLast>lol
16:56<elliot>rip
16:56<ComplyLast>indeed
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16:57<fmneto>ouch.
16:57<sarnold>still I like the way you pick your passwords
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16:58<ComplyLast>and emails too I guess
16:58<ComplyLast>could have been worse :D
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17:03<swift110>oh wow
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17:07<ComplyLast>I guess it was a nice entry to a new network, stylish -_-
17:07<sney>only uphill from there, lol
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17:09<startling_geologist>Oftentimes build instructions tell you to "make install" at the end. the problem is that keeping track of where all the files went is not automatic and it is non-trivial to remoe stuff later. Is there a way to just just put all the stuff that would be copied to various places under / into a ad-hoc .deb package so you can add and remove this stuff at will later? (I know that this isn't really a debian package, as there is no build in
17:09<startling_geologist>tions or dependencies specified.) Or is there an equivalent solution to this?
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17:11<jmcnaught>startling_geologist: there is checkinstall, and you might also want to check out stow or xstow for managing versions in /usr/local
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17:11<sney>stow is great for that.
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17:15<mog>Hi
17:15<sney>hi
17:16<mog>I need help with Tor, how can I block pron there?
17:16<ydbi>mog: that's not a debian question
17:17<mog>My system is Debian
17:17<ydbi>#tor is nextdoors
17:17<mog>ok I'll go check it out
17:17<startling_geologist>So the thing I want this for is to make VMWare Modules that actually work with Debian 11 (https://github.com/mkubecek/vmware-host-modules/blob/master/INSTALL).
17:17<startling_geologist>Would the tools you suggested work for this?
17:18<sarnold>mog: something like https://www.open-xchange.com/products/network-based-family-protection/ may help, but it won't do anything for any .onion-hosted conte
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17:21<sney>startling_geologist: going by https://github.com/mkubecek/vmware-host-modules/blob/master/Makefile it's not a standard build system, but just builds a couple of kernel modules. you could make a package from this but not automatically
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17:27<zapotah>startling_geologist: ws16 works fine on 11
17:27<startling_geologist>sney if I wanted to go about making a package of the modules, where would I go to read up on how that works? Or if it is short enough and you know, would you spell it out for me?
17:27<startling_geologist>zapotah, really that would be a welcome change
17:27<blastwave>I am having a bit of a disaster trying to get lightdm to start and run such that I can use lxde. For some obscure reason I see Failed to start Light Display Manager. from systemctl status lightdm and no clear reason why
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17:29<blastwave>the final output line from " journalctl -b -u lightdm.service " is "lightdm.service: Triggering OnFailure= dependencies." however " systemctl list-dependencies lightdm " reveals nothing of interest
17:31<somiaj>Ugg, forgot how long fsck can tank on old spinning drives, 30mins+
17:31*blastwave recalls fsck running all night long
17:32<somiaj>yea, this is an old data dir that I haven't used in a while, though I think I'll make it not auto fsck on boot, destroys my 5second boots
17:33<sney>startling_geologist: I would start with something like this, or possibly there's another github repo where someone has already modified that source for dkms: https://wiki.debian.org/KernelDKMS
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17:33<Sqrt{not}>blastwave, what other display managers are installed there?
17:34<sney>startling_geologist: the dkms approach also ensures the modules will automatically rebuild for any kernel abi changes.
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17:34<blastwave>Sqrt{not}: good question ... not sure how to check that. I can do a dpkg-query -l and grep for a few things
17:34<Sqrt{not}>do I remember you were asking about this recently here?
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17:35<blastwave>Sqrt{not}: not recently. perhaps in the last two years
17:35<Sqrt{not}>OK, I'm remembering something else, never mind
17:35<somiaj>maybe this is another person having lightdm issues
17:35<somiaj>blastwave: cat /etc/X11/default-display-manager (what output is that?)
17:35<blastwave>Sqrt{not}: I only see lxd and a bit of gnome packages ( those seems to be unavoidable ) and nothing else
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17:35<blastwave>there is little or no information in the /etc/lightdm conf files
17:36<blastwave>in fact the /etc/lightdm/lightdm.conf and /etc/lightdm/lightdm-gtk-greeter.conf are untouched since the day of install
17:36<blastwave>so this is baffling
17:37<somiaj>blastwave: the output of that above command?
17:37<blastwave>somiaj: er .. of which command ?
17:37<somiaj>blastwave: cat /etc/X11/default-display-manager (what output is that?)
17:38<somiaj>Though not quite sure how well this is honored with systemd these days
17:38<blastwave>it is "/usr/sbin/lightdm"
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17:38<blastwave>I see that the start for the lightdm service is merely to exec that
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17:38<blastwave>funny .. it says --> Process: 1475 ExecStartPre=/bin/sh -c [ "$(cat /etc/X11/default-display-manager 2>/dev/null)" = "/usr/sbin/lightdm" ] (code=exited
17:38<blastwave>, status=0/SUCCESS)
17:39<blastwave>which is baloney as it never started
17:39<somiaj>blastwave: dpkg -l | grep xserver-xorg-legacy (do you have the legacy xorg server installed)?
17:39<blastwave>yep !
17:39<blastwave> xserver-xorg-legacy 2:1.20.4-1+deb10u3
17:39<blastwave>I assure you I have been digging into this for an hour before I decided to be a "bother" on irc :)
17:40<blastwave>I may need to grep/sed/awk the output from "systemctl list-dependencies lightdm" and check if all that gobblydy gook is actually running
17:40<somiaj>sure, we just like to double check things since we don't know what you have checked
17:41<blastwave>somiaj: no worries ... coffee cup loaded
17:41*blastwave reaches for whiskey
17:41<somiaj>care to share the output of 'journalctl -u lightdm.service' at paste.debian.net (or similar)
17:41<blastwave>will do ! one sec
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17:41<blastwave>do you want journalctl -u lightdm.service or journalctl -b -u lightdm.service ??
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17:43<blastwave>okay journalctl -u lightdm.service --> https://paste.debian.net/plain/1198789
17:43<somiaj>having multiple boots is fine, just more output
17:44<blastwave>I fixed the Error getting user list from org.freedesktop.Accounts: GDBus.Error:org. thing
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17:44<blastwave>for reasons unknown I needed to install apt-get install accountsservice
17:44<blastwave>seems that was ... absent
17:44<somiaj>is this buster?
17:45<blastwave>at the top of https://paste.debian.net/plain/1198789 there we see cat /etc/debian_version is 10.9
17:45<blastwave>also /etc/apt/sources.list confirms deb cdrom:[Debian GNU/Linux 10.5.0 _Buster_ - Official amd64 NETINST 20200801-11:34]/ buster main
17:45<somiaj>ahh missed that, anyways accountservice is only a suggested package, so I doubt that was actually causing it not to boot, but gives some additional functionality
17:46<blastwave>I was wondering about that
17:46<blastwave>no worries .. it got rid of an error line
17:46<blastwave>I can certianly reboot the box if needed
17:46<startling_geologist>sney if I don't want to jump through theee hoops: Is there a way to watch/list all files added by make install so I could just delete them with a script later?
17:46<somiaj>yea, seems to not give any reason why it failed, just that it failed.
17:47<blastwave>somiaj: exactly ! that has me baffled and looking for a way to enable a verbose/debug switch somewhere and then reboot
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17:47<blastwave>somiaj: I will look in /etc/lightdm/lightdm.conf and see if there is some log option in there
17:48<blastwave>there is a #log-directory=/var/log/lightdm
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17:48<somiaj>blastwave: do you see anything in /var/log/lightdm?
17:48<sney>startling_geologist: if you edit that Makefile at line 41 to add '-v' to the command line options for install, it'll print everything that it does
17:49<startling_geologist>good tip, thanks
17:49<blastwave>somiaj: indeed I do ... I should have looked there
17:49<blastwave>somiaj: let me post that
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17:50<somiaj>blastwave: also check your xorg log, /var/log/Xorg.0.log (though if you ran startx it might be the previous log)
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17:51<blastwave>yikes ... I may need to create /etc/X11/xorg.conf
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17:51<somiaj>well often you only need a snippet, just the one section that fails
17:51<somiaj>so you don't have to write a full configuration file, but maybe jsut a few lines
17:53<blastwave>okay .. this helps --> https://paste.debian.net/plain/1198790
17:53<blastwave>see bottom of that
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17:53<blastwave>I did remove a NVidia GPU from the machine .. however I also removed the nvidia-driver package
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17:54<somiaj>blastwave: do you have an /etc/X11/xorg.conf file, or do you have any files in /etc/X11/xorg.conf.d/?
17:54<blastwave> LoadModule: "nvidia" ?? however there is no /etc/X11/xorg.conf file at all
17:54<blastwave>well cannot access '/etc/X11/xorg.conf.d/': No such file or directory
17:54<sney>nvidia is loaded by a config snippet in /usr/share/X11/xorg.conf.d
17:54<blastwave>a geez
17:55<sney>but it should do nothing if the hardware isn't present
17:55<blastwave> /etc/X11/xorg.conf exists and it clearly says Section "Device" and then Driver "nvidia"
17:55<somiaj>blastwave: just move that file out of the way, probably your whole problem
17:55<blastwave> mv /etc/X11/xorg.conf /etc/X11/__xorg.conf.nvidia
17:55<blastwave>done
17:55<somiaj>blastwave: you could delete it but I prefer to mv ... <somewhere else>
17:56<blastwave>yeah I may need that when I stuff the NVidia Quadro back on the mobo
17:56<blastwave>I am going to reboot the whole box ...
17:56<blastwave>can't hurt
17:56<somiaj>note the newer non-free nvidia driver in debian auto detects now, so may not be needed
17:56<startling_geologist>zapotah sney ok, I just tried to use the current upstream installed for VMWare and it looks like the issue that required the linked workaround is no longer there. so thanks for the tips sney, but they are not actually needed. :)
17:56<startling_geologist>installer
17:57<sney>haha, np
17:57<blastwave>somiaj: to be honest I once upon a time went through the process of the nvidia drivers for the newer Quadro cards but the lastest debian packages are smooth and work as expected .. so they are good stuff
17:57<blastwave>somiaj: even on sid
17:57<startling_geologist>not great to run a non-free virtualizer on my workstation, but the gpu performance when not using passthrough is still far the best on vmware
17:58<somiaj>yea, I'm not using a quadro, but on bullseye outside of installing the non-free driers I had to do nothing to get my 1070 to work
17:58<blastwave>I need the Quadro unit for the FP64 math functions .. damn nvidia and their money
17:58<startling_geologist>Yeah, for the nvidia drivers I would also recommend to use the latest compatible ones from debian non-free and not try to run nvidia's installer
17:59<blastwave>I gave up on that whole song and dance a few years ago
17:59<somiaj>yea nvidia's installer will just fight with debian and not integrate nicely, avoid it
17:59<blastwave>been there .. done that .. I have the coffee stains
17:59<somiaj>I play to many games so have always had a gaming gpu....
18:00<blastwave> b i n g o !! machine reboots and I have a graphical login
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18:01<sney>the debian packages are better at staying up to date these days anyway. buster/bullseye/sid all have 460.xx available in non-free and upstream is only at 465.xx
18:01<startling_geologist>what is a good proxy to enter into an application that will never work (meaning not result in working network) 0.0.0.0?
18:01<grawity>no, that just gives you localhost
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18:01<grawity>so if you have a proxy on localhost...
18:02<sney>169.254.0.0/16 maybe? though that runs the risk of accidentally finding a listening proxy on a system that failed its way into an apipa address
18:02<blastwave>I tend to avoid the latest drivers from NVidia until I hear from a few folks. There seems to be an aggressive program in place at NVidia to drop support on older Quadro cards and the new ones are $10k
18:02<startling_geologist>is there a standard, this never resolves adress? like there is a /dev/null for an empty file?
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18:04<blastwave>okay I just checked and the production branch from NVidia is 460.80 date 11 May 2021
18:04<grawity>tbh just configure one locally
18:04<grawity>as an unreachable route
18:04<grawity>other than that no, I'm not sure there is one, not even in ipv6
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18:05<blastwave>somiaj: this seems to be working neatly now
18:05<grawity>but maybe 255.255.255.255 will work, as the OS refuses to work with broadcast addresses normally IIRC
18:06<grawity>(there are "black hole" addresses that never exist on the internet, sure, but they'll still result in packets going out from your computer)
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18:07<blastwave>glxgears? I wonder if there is a video or frame rate benchmark thingy that I can use *before* dropping in the nvidia card ?
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18:08<startling_geologist>something different but related (I guess). I am using ufw (configured with gufw) on debian as a "firewall". I set it to deny/reject stuff by default, and then just allowlist what I want to work. This mostly works fine, but with some virtualisation software the guest operating system suddenly has full unrestricted network acess again. why is that?
18:08<startling_geologist>ufw on the host
18:08<startling_geologist>https://wiki.debian.org/Uncomplicated%20Firewall%20%28ufw%29
18:09<blastwave>somiaj: I see what you are saying. the latest feature branch from nvidia is the 465.31 release and that may be something worth looking at .. or *not*
18:09<grawity>bridged guests' packets do not go through the host's layer3+ (IP) stack nor through the IP firewall
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18:10<somiaj>blastwave: not sure what you thought I said, I was mostly saying don't use nvidia's installer, use the debian package for lots of reasons..
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18:11<blastwave>somiaj: agree totally
18:11<startling_geologist>grawity. is it possible that not all virtualiser bridge the packets like this? because a guest in virtualbox seemed to respect the firewall
18:11<blastwave>somiaj: also the CUDA dev tools are a pain if I were even to trry anything else
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18:15<somiaj>yea not something I have used, so no experience there, I'm more a gamer than a gpu computation user
18:16<blastwave>well games work with the Quadro cards also
18:16<blastwave>quite wwell in fact
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18:19<blastwave>somiaj: if you get a chance take a look at the compute specifications on an older Kepler or NVIDIA Quadro P6000. there are very very strange things being done by the NVidia people in their hardware
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18:20<blastwave>somiaj: even the top of the line 3090RTX is dog slow when compared to an older Quadro and that seems blatantly wrong .. and on that topic I am now going to try and get an NVidia GPU working
18:21<blastwave>somiaj: thank you Sir for pointing out the error of my xorg.conf :)
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18:56<pron>00:16:14 mog | I need help with Tor, how can I block pron there?
18:56<pron>why i want to b;ock me?
18:56<pron>why you want to block me ;x
18:56<pron>stahp
18:56<Avocato>?
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18:58<pron>you reminded me that i have to watch new season
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19:07<sarnold>pron: lol
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19:20<demo>hello everyone
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19:21<demo>hi
19:21<demo>hola
19:21<demo>ciao
19:21<sney>!chat
19:21<dpkg>This is not a chat channel, this is a Debian user support channel. Unless you have a Debian support question, please chat elsewhere, like #debian-offtopic (either freenode or oftc) or #moocows on irc.oftc.net, ##chat on irc.freenode.net, or search for a chat topic of your choice at https://netsplit.de/channels/
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19:21<demo>konnichiwa
19:21<demo>ups
19:22<demo>okis bye >3
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19:24<sych1ll>suppose i do something like "lvcreate -L 50.7593973G MyVolGroup -n root". will it perform badly if not aligned on 4096 boundaries? Or is that concept irrelevant with LVM?
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19:25<sney>I suspect the latter, or if there is a performance difference it will not be noticeable in real world usage
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19:26<matthias>sych1ll: You can control the alignment policy regarding how blocks are allocated and aligned in detail in /etc/lvm/lvm.conf
19:27<matthias>sych1ll: "default_data_alignment" is a keyword to search for.
19:27<matthias>sych1ll: In practice, the default configuration works very well and will make sure that allocations (which don't need to be contiguous) are aligned appropriately.
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19:29<sych1ll>glad to hear that. So it sounds like i don't have to think about it the way i would with a traditional non-LVM configuation
19:30<sych1ll>after reading about LVM, I get the impression it might make sense to leave some unpartitioned space, so that if one logical partition maxes out space can be added on-the-fly without unmounting anything.
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19:32<sych1ll>what i'm unclear on is if I should put the slack space inside of a volume group, or outside of the volume group
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19:32<bremner>inside the VG, I think.
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19:47<sych1ll>i bet the swap partition could be shrunk on-the-fly
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19:48<sych1ll>would it make sense to start with a really big swap partition, then when another partition runs out of space, shrink swap and expand the other on the fly?
19:49<sarnold>you might as well make a large file on the filesystem
19:50<sych1ll>e.g. 75gb partition on a system with 4gb RAM
19:50<sarnold>(which is something friends have done, I can't remember now which database they were using that made this a *very* attractive thing to do)
19:51<sych1ll>sarnold: the file would have to be present on one of the ext4 filesystems. I don't think that helps, because it would mean predicting which LV will run out of space 1st
19:52<sych1ll>the thing is, i don't know if "/", /home, or /var will run out of space first
19:52<sych1ll>so the slack space must be outside of those LVs
19:52<sarnold>sych1ll: oh, and shrinking a filesystem is probably worse than just deleting swap and mkaing a smaller one..
19:53<jmcnaught>Having a swap larger than you'll ever use instead of just unallocated space on the VG means more work in the future to shrink the swap volume.
19:54<sarnold>plus you run the risk of the kernel actually *using* it someday, you'll be living a miserable life if you're 75 gigs into swap on most systems
19:54<sarnold>two gigs of swap is pretty good
19:54<sarnold>one gig is usually enough for most folks
19:55<sych1ll>sarnold: 2gb of swap with 4gb RAM makes the system un-hibernatable
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19:56<sych1ll>swap must be at least 4gb + 1k in order to store all the ram for suspend/hibernation (the 1k is for swap overhead)
19:56<sney>if your hardware supports hibernate and you intend to use it, then allocate that much swap
19:56<sney>many newer systems can't hibernate at all.
19:57<sych1ll>i'm not sure.. and i'm not clear on the difference between hibernate, suspend, and sleep
19:58<sych1ll>my thinkpad has a sleep button (a moon).. does that mean anything?
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19:58<sney>sleep/suspend usually refers to suspending to ram
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19:59<sych1ll>it automatically turns off when the battery is low
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19:59<sych1ll>and when i get it plugged in again, the state is maintained.
19:59<sney>hibernate is suspend to disk, where the computer is powered completely down, and then has to use a special boot process to resume. secure boot breaks hibernate completely, and it's wonky in some non-secure efis as well
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20:00<sych1ll>secure boot is an EFI thing, right? my hardware predates EFI. It's pure legacy BIOS
20:01<sney>ok, so your system can probably do both, suspend to disk or suspend to ram
20:02<sney>and if you think you'll use it, then make your swap just larger than your ram, as you already stated. but making it significantly bigger than *that* is utterly pointless
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20:02<sych1ll>i'm thinking 8gb for swap
20:03<sney>even that is excessive, but you do you
20:04<sych1ll>i know my current config is a disaster.. sometime it starts swapping like mad and the cursor moves 1 pixel per 5 min or so, and I have to force shutdown
20:04<sych1ll>so i have to do something different
20:05<sych1ll>swap is at 4gb, and the swappiness setting is 10
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20:06<sych1ll>not sure i want to do me.. i've been doing something wrong on this
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20:07<sych1ll>all it takes is one bad browser tab and my whole system goes to lunch
20:07<jmcnaught>sych1ll: zram-tools might be useful, use some of your memory to make a compressed swap yielding more memory at the expense of some CPU use
20:08<sney>if memory is getting full enough that you have to consider tweaking swap usage, it may be wiser to either increase physical ram or reduce idle usage. any time you're using disk space as memory, the performance will be very noticeably bad
20:08<sney>and 4GB is definitely on the small side in current era, particularly with browsers
20:10<sych1ll>i've been running my browser like this but it has not helped => systemd-run --scope -p MemoryLimit=1G <chromium/ff/tor browser>
20:10<sney>that's probably because of the threading, there is much more than 1 browser process with any of those
20:11<debianinside>try running the links2 browser
20:11<sych1ll>ah, so MemoryLimit should be the limit for each tab? maybe that should be 75k then
20:13<sych1ll>i'd rather have a GUI browser that's not sloppy.. that suspends pages that hog more than 50k
20:15<debianinside>elinks is also a fine browser
20:15<sych1ll>browsers are so poorly designed right now.. just one malicious page hogs too much, and the brower gives 2 choices: 1) kill everything or 2) kill nothing. such a lousy remedy to a bad tab
20:16<sych1ll>firefox and ungoogled chromium are both like that
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20:19<sych1ll>how might i find out if the hardware supports hibernation (suspend to disk)? is it likely mentioned in the BIOS menus?
20:20<sney>yes, or just try it and see what happens
20:20<sney>someone may have documented it for your system model as well
20:21<sych1ll>apart from the spectial keyboard key with a moon (for sleep), there is one that shows a "screen => HDD" symbol
20:22<sney>that does sound like it is intended to work
20:22<sych1ll>https://www.touchfancy.com/product/lap[...]0-w510-t420s-t520-x220i-us-layout.html
20:22<sych1ll>the F12 key
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20:23<sych1ll>sorry, bad link
20:23<sney>the [...] broke your link, but if it's a t420, yea I know the model
20:23<sney>also, it's a t420. get more ram, it's cheap.
20:23<sych1ll>https://www.touchfancy.com/data/e/81280/TB2Xz23owDD8KJjy0FdXXcjvXXa_!!114112605.jpg
20:23<sney>my t430 has 16GB
20:24<sych1ll>i'm not sure it can exceed 4gb, but if it can, it's so old that large chips of that age would likely not be cheap
20:24<sych1ll>ram goes back up in price when it gets really old
20:24<sych1ll>we're talking 2008
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20:26<sney>T420 was closer to 2010, 2011, anyway https://www.ebay.com/itm/124654565331
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20:27<sney>"ram goes back up in price when it gets really old" doesn't apply so much for models that are still common. and thinkpads are hard to kill
20:28-!-mode/#debian [+l 834] by debhelper
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20:28<sych1ll>found the manual.. mentions "turbo memory" LOL
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20:29<sych1ll>2gb is the max size of the memory chip it can take, according to the manual
20:29<abrotman>press the turbo button
20:29<sych1ll>but it mentions a "Intel ® Turbo Memory 1-GB Minicard"
20:30<sych1ll>something that can apparently expand memory even when the banks are full, it seems
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20:31<sych1ll>and indeed hibernation is a feature of this
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20:32<leah>hey sorry for the nick spam earlier. i was new to oftc and registering all the nicks i normally use on irc networks. registering and grouping them together
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20:32<leah>thought i'd check this place out, seeing as how i use debian and am on oftc now. hi!
20:33<sarnold>hello :)
20:33<sych1ll>and the manual confirms that Fn+F12 is indeed for hibernation
20:33<sney>hello! don't worry about nick spam, there's plenty of static in here on a good day
20:33<sarnold>yeah I didn't even notice it
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20:33<leah>i lie. i'm actually using arch and ubuntu on my workstations. but my servers run debian!
20:34<leah>the ubuntu install is probably getting nuked soon
20:35<leah>though i did install debian for a friend the other day, so there's that
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20:45<sych1ll>"It is not recommended to use Intel Turbo Memory in a system with a SSD drive." https://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=83614#p553910
20:46<sych1ll>so i'm trapped on 4gb ram
20:47<sarnold>"intel turbo memory" ... uhoh. sounds iffy.
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20:50<sych1ll>i suppose the only tweak i could do at this point is an SSD with some kind of large built-in cache to ease swapping pain
20:51<jmcnaught>https://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/Category:T420 says up to 16GB DDR3
20:51<sych1ll>that's not what i have.. manual is clear on this
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20:52<jmcnaught>Intel Turbo Memory is not RAM, it's NAND flash used to speed up booting and loading programs (probably on Windows)
20:53<sych1ll>hmm.. maybe my manual is lying
20:53<sych1ll>https://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/Category:T61
20:53<sych1ll>wiki says 8gb max, manual says 4gb max
20:53<jmcnaught>I know I have 8GB in my X220
20:54<sych1ll>perhaps 4gb sodimms didn't exist when the manual was printed, but maybe the motherboard supports it
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20:55<sney>look up the cpu on the intel ark site, that'll often be the final word on actual supported ram
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20:57<sych1ll>apparently this is the cpu: https://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/Intel_Core_2_Duo_(Penryn)
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21:08<sych1ll>docs are lousy on this https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/33917/intel-core-2-duo-processor-t9300-6m-cache-2-50-ghz-800-mhz-fsb.html
21:09<sych1ll>no max memory spec
21:10<sney>I guess back then it was still tied to the chipset, so https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/29821/intel-82gm965-graphics-and-memory-controller.html
21:10<sney>but if you actually have a T61, thinkwiki says it supports up to 8GB. and they are typically accurate and based on direct experimentation.
21:12<sych1ll>so manual and specs both say 4gb, but thinkwiki says 8gb.. guess it comes down to price of what i find & if the gamble is worth it
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21:19<sych1ll>there is an official limit and an unofficial limit, with footnote: https://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/PC2-5300
21:19<sych1ll>so that explains it
21:20<sych1ll>it's the difference between a "2Rx8" SO-UDIMM, and "1Rx8" (not sure what that means)
21:21<sych1ll>does that means 2-sided, with chips on both sides of the card?
21:21<sney>that means the density of the actual dram chips on the sodimm. yes, generally it means the same as 1- or 2-sided
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21:28<sych1ll>$120 on amazon: https://www.amazon.com/MemoryMasters-DDR2-667MHz-PC2-5300-Non-ECC-Unbuffered/dp/B07HKD48MX -- would probably cost even more to buy from a store that i'm not boycotting
21:28<sych1ll>so that's not happening
21:29<sych1ll>nvm.. that's for a desktop
21:29<sarnold>and ddr2 to judge by the slug; an earlier comment gave me the impression you've got ddr3
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21:30<jmcnaught>I think somehow we thought the computer was a T420 but it's actually something older
21:31<sarnold>ahhhhh
21:31<sney>ebay is the only site I'd use for old laptop memory. well, maybe aliexpress
21:31<sney>bonus if you have the fru they'll list that on the ad
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21:34<sych1ll>i've been boycotting eBay too. Even though PayPal is no longer compulsory, eBay's javascript sniffs your LAN for open ports and reports back
21:35<sych1ll>people are throwing away computers that are newer than what i have now
21:36<bremner>maybe you should get one of those?
21:36<sych1ll>the fastest computer in my house right now is one that i pulled from a dumpster
21:36<sney>the used laptop market has been pretty bonkers since widespread WFH started last year
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21:36<sney>it might be calming down now, though
21:37<sych1ll>WFH?
21:37<sney>work from home
21:37<sych1ll>i should hit dumpsters more frequently then
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21:38<sney>for many years there was a predictable ecosystem of laptops cycling into the used/refurb market from large enterprises. covid slowed that down a huge amount and I saw some prices double
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21:38<sney>good thing my 2012-era thinkpad still has some life left, heh
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21:39<sych1ll>i may never pay for a spy chip, which means anything post-2008 i'm only willing to take from a dumpster
21:42<sarnold>if you want non-spy chips, consider https://www.raptorcs.com/
21:44<sych1ll>how do they avoid having a spy chip?
21:44<sarnold>power9
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21:49<sych1ll>interesting.. i thought my boycott of all spy chips meant i'd never have something with modern day performance. power8/9/10 cpus might be a winner
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21:51<sarnold>raptor may skip the power10 line, so far it appears that the memory controllers are going to have proprietary and unavilable code from synopsis in the memory controllers :(
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22:09<sych1ll>since i won't be spending $130 on 8gb of ddr2, i guess i'll try the zram-tools idea
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23:10-!-ChromaCat248 is "realname" on #moocows #virt #qemu #oftc #linux #debian #C #lowRISC
23:12-!-Roman3349 [~Thunderbi@host-89-203-169-159.ip.topnet.cz] has joined #debian
23:12-!-Roman3349 is "Roman3349" on #debian-sponsors #debian
23:18-!-leandrocunha [~debian@2804:18:5042:fa55:9db3:cae0:942e:9e4b] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
23:21-!-dvs [~hibbard@00012127.user.oftc.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
23:22-!-superkuh [~superkuh@c-24-118-172-137.hsd1.wi.comcast.net] has joined #debian
23:22-!-superkuh is "superkuh" on #perl #debian-next #networking #kernelnewbies #freedombox #debian-nginx #debian
23:23-!-Redentor [~armando@2600:3c01:e000:20c:26a:b4b9:9a0e:e249] has quit []
23:33-!-ax5623 [~NickServ@144.sub-174-194-210.myvzw.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
23:36-!-wololoer [~user@00022ff6.user.oftc.net] has joined #debian
23:36-!-wololoer is "user" on #s6 #alpine-linux #qemu #kvm #virt #suckless #openjdk #debian-next #debian
23:38-!-Jan\ [~kvirc@104.204.200.116] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 5.0.1 Aria http://www.kvirc.net/]
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23:40-!-ChromaCat248_ [~ChromaCat@2603-6080-a200-eb3f-0000-3d87-0900-ec83.res6.spectrum.com] has joined #debian
23:40-!-ChromaCat248_ is "realname" on #moocows #virt #qemu #oftc #linux #debian #C
23:42-!-newtons [~newtons@2a02:120b:2c42:7650:6e62:6dff:fe05:e12d] has joined #debian
23:42-!-newtons is "newtons" on #debian
23:44-!-ChromaCat248 [~ChromaCat@2603-6080-a200-eb3f-0000-3d87-0900-ec83.res6.spectrum.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
23:44-!-ChromaCat248_ [~ChromaCat@2603-6080-a200-eb3f-0000-3d87-0900-ec83.res6.spectrum.com] has quit []
23:44-!-ChromaCat248 [~ChromaCat@2603-6080-a200-eb3f-0000-3d87-0900-ec83.res6.spectrum.com] has joined #debian
23:44-!-ChromaCat248 is "realname" on #moocows #virt #qemu #oftc #linux #debian #C #lowRISC
23:45-!-ax5623 [~NickServ@159.sub-174-194-200.myvzw.com] has joined #debian
23:45-!-ax5623 is "+" on #linux #debian-next #debian
23:48-!-cef is now known as Guest4929
23:48-!-cef [~cef@124.168.202.11] has joined #debian
23:48-!-cef is "Cefiar" on #debian-next #debian #dri-devel #intel-3d
23:48-!-debianinside [~debian@0002b11d.user.oftc.net] has quit [Quit: debianinside]
23:49-!-secntech [~secntech@0002a124.user.oftc.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
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23:51-!-secntech is "tp" on #tor-project #suckless #redditprivacy #Qubes_OS #privacytech #freedombox #debian #cryptoparty
23:55-!-}ls{ [~kalle@000199a5.user.oftc.net] has quit [Quit: real life interrupt]
23:55-!-Guest4929 [~cef@202.53.34.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
23:57-!-newtons [~newtons@2a02:120b:2c42:7650:6e62:6dff:fe05:e12d] has quit []
23:58-!-mikkel [~mike@00029f15.user.oftc.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!]
---Logclosed Wed May 26 00:00:01 2021