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#debian IRC Logs for 2021-05-26

---Logopened Wed May 26 00:00:01 2021
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01:22<dpkg>This is not a chat channel, this is a Debian user support channel. Unless you have a Debian support question, please chat elsewhere, like #debian-offtopic (either freenode or oftc) or #moocows on, ##chat on, or search for a chat topic of your choice at
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01:33<unixbsd_>somiaj: it seems that freenode has changed significanlty, ... what happened? most channells are moving or have left.
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01:35<blue__penquin>Maybe ask that in the offtopic channel.
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01:39<somiaj>unixbsd_: since this is debian's offical network (and has been since 2006), everything is fine here. I'm sure you can look up the details on google, 'Andrew Lee' is a name to research.
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01:41<Unit193>Note there is a very different Andrew Lee is that is a Debian developer, he's *entirely* different.
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02:17<tohoyn>Iäm trying to build a package having a dependency to libgtk-4-dev with sbuild. I get the following error: sbuild-build-depends-main-dummy : Depends: libgtk-4-dev but it is not installable
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02:19<somiaj>tohoyn: What version of debian's chroot are you doing this in?
02:20<tohoyn>somiaj: how can I find that out?
02:21<somiaj>I haven't used sbuild that much, I only ocasionally used pbuilder, but usually you should be able to specify by codename which the chroot is, though I think by default it will be sid.
02:21<tohoyn>somiaj: it's an unstable/sid environment
02:21<somiaj>give me just a second, I'm creating a sid root
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02:22<somiaj>tohoyn: oh wait, that package is only in experimental, so yea you won't be able to install it in a sid root
02:22<somiaj>,v libgtk-4-dev
02:22<judd>Package: libgtk-4-dev on amd64 -- experimental: 4.0.3-4
02:22<tohoyn>somiaj: tx
02:23<dpkg>When a <testing> release becomes frozen, <unstable> tends to partially freeze as well. This is because developers are reluctant to upload radically new software to unstable, in case the frozen software in testing needs minor updates and to fix release critical bugs which keep testing from becoming <stable>.
02:24<somiaj>Unsure your use case, if waiting for the relese of bullseye and stuff to get to normal in sid is worth it for this package, or go through the trouble of ensure the build enviroment contains exerpimetnal sources (and might have to mess with pinning)
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03:15<tri83>need some help, consider me a noob
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03:15<somiaj>please ask your question and lets us know your debian emergency
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03:16<tri83>err.. there is no emergency
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03:17<tri83>Back 2013, I played around with Linux mint Isadora. I distinctly remmber that back then you could download a .deb file and with that single file you could install the program you want. But this cant be done anymore. The .deb files are very small, a few KBs in size, and they call for further dependencies/library files.
03:18<tri83>Basically, you've to be connected to the internet to get a program.
03:18<tri83>I wish to download a single .deb file and then store it and use it later to install programs on offline machines.
03:18<tri83>Sure there are those tar.gz files but compiling/running them is hard.
03:18<tri83>I've been a PC user for 20+ years, but mostly Windows.
03:19<tri83>Please advise.
03:20<somiaj>well first, debian and linux mint are not the same, if you are wanting to use mint, you should use their support.
03:21<somiaj>Though debian .deb files are part of a collection of shared libaries, so you will most likely need to install a dependency tree to get any software installed via apt. You can do this offline by having an offline repo or downloading one of the dvd/blueray images and installing from those
03:22<somiaj>But everything is just easier if you connect to the internet and download just the packages you need (plus it gives you access to security updates)
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03:23<somiaj>now to do offline installs you do have various options. You could have one local machine which acts as a debian mirror and download all the packages to it, then install those packages over your local network as another option besides using a dvd/blue ray set to install
03:23<tri83>I see your point, but what if I want an older version of a program?
03:23<tri83>Say I like to use VLC 2.2.x instead of the latest version, what then?
03:24<somiaj>in general that is probably not suggested due to security issues, but debian provides all of its releases
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03:24<somiaj>now you can't just install an older .deb on a newer debian in most cases (without rebuilding), but you can say run older version of debian on
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03:25<somiaj> also provides the sources and versions of all packages ever seen in debian (even those that were never relaesed)
03:25<tri83>ok, let me check that snapshot link.
03:25<tri83>Also, thank you for the replies. Appreciate it. Other chat rooms i tried were dead.
03:25<somiaj>but don't count on that place to get software, in general you want to use the versions of software that come with the release of debian you choose to run.
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03:32<tri83> takes me to a placeholder (?) kind of webpage
03:33<tri83>"This is schmelzer, a system run by and for the Debian Project. She does stuff. What kind of stuff and who our kind sponsors are you might learn on "
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03:34<tri83>Anyway, I think I'm going to have to sit down and peruse through a lot of literature on how a standalone installation file can be created for debian. I clearly remember it was possible about a decade ago.
03:34<tri83>thax smiaj
03:34<somiaj>the archive just contains the apt repository to get the packages for any released version of debian back to 2.0 (source even earler)
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03:35<somiaj>oh I guess you can even get binary releases for bo (debian 1.3) from the late 90s
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03:36<tri83>oh ok.
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03:56<scorpion2185[m]>I reinstalled lightdm with gtk-greeter. now it works. before i had artica and slick
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04:48<killall>I cannot find a way to put my sound card to work 00:1f.3 Multimedia audio controller: Intel Corporation Tiger Lake-LP Smart Sound Technology Audio Controller (rev 20)
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04:51<towo^work>maybe use a recent kernel?
04:51<towo^work>you cant think your ultra modern hardware works with an old kernel like buster provides
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04:54<killall>towo^work, :) im on 5.10.0
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04:55<towo^work>Tiger Lake is maybe supported by 5.12 or 5.13
04:56<killall>will try that :D
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06:41<jelly>woot! OFTC officially has the largest #debian channel for the first time since moved
06:41<enkrypt>I'm also in #debian on libera
06:42<enkrypt>I wish people would just settle on #debian here and basta
06:43<karaka>Hi folks, I am on Bullseye and wanted to install collectd from Sid because it has module for collectd Could you point me how to do that? What's the meaning behind “sug: nut [alpha, sh4]” ? My goal is to have a working UPS reporting in Debian but collectd-nut plugin is not in /usr/lib/collectd in
06:44<karaka>(I saw a note in Changeleog it was removed but it looks like “alpha” is available in Sid.)
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06:44<thurstylark>What's the best way to install Alacritty's terminfo on debian 10?
06:47<jm_>karaka: ssb it?
06:48<karaka>Hi jm_ not sure what ssb means. I have Debian on my mips NAS, I am not very familiar with the distro besides basics.
06:48<dpkg>First, check for a backport on <debian-backports>. If unavailable: 1) Add a deb-src line for sid (not a deb line!); ask me about <deb-src sid> 2) enable debian-backports (see <bdo>) 3) apt update; apt install build-essential; apt build-dep packagename 4) apt -b source packagename 5) dpkg -i packagename-ver.deb To change compilation options, see <package recompile>; for versions newer than sid see <uupdate>.
06:49<jm_>karaka: wait, sid has the exact same version as testing - it won't get you anything - if you want to get nut plugin, you'll need to modify how debian builds the package, it's probably quite simple
06:50<jm_>karaka: apcups won't do the job?
06:51<karaka>I have working UPS setup but I need a NUT plugin for collectd.
06:52<jm_>then your only option is the above recomendation
06:52<karaka>I thought I could add sid to deb-src and use apt-get install nut/sid but it looks like apt thinks verions are the same.
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06:53<jm_>they are the same
06:53<karaka>jm_ so I will attempt to build from source but could you elaborate on that comment about same version?
06:54<karaka>Should I bump a package version in build recipe?
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06:55<jm_>karaka: you will need to modify the version, otherwise apt will pull in debian's package
06:55<karaka>(and does that [alpha] means something? Other collectd plugins in sid do not have that?)
06:56<jm_>dch can be used for changing version
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06:56<jm_>that [alpha] thing means alph port has older version of the pacgae, and [sh4] even older
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06:58<JackedChick>hey Franco you upgrade to Bullseye yet?
06:58<FrancoMon>Nah, too busy this week, maybe the weekend
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06:58<karaka>jm_ thank you for help ( ^_^)/
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06:59<jm_>karaka: no problem
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07:13<FelixActually>I'm trying to mount a filesystem and it says this: "mount: [mountpath]: wrong fs type, bad option, bad superblock on /dev/sdc, missing codepage or helper program, or other error."
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07:16<FelixActually>I just did "sudo mount /dev/sdc [mountpath]"
07:16<petn-randall>FelixActually: You're either using it with the wrong options, or it's not a filesystem.
07:17<petn-randall>FelixActually: Do you have a filesystem on the blank drive, without any partitions?
07:17<FelixActually>There's a filesystem with a partition on it
07:18<petn-randall>FelixActually: Can you share the output of `fdisk -l /dev/sdc` on https:/
07:18<jm_>or use something like lsblk/blkid instead
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07:19<FelixActually>Do I need to mount sdc1 instead of sdc?
07:20<FelixActually>Okay... sdc1 mounted just fine
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07:33<FelixActually>Is there any reason why I shouldn't use shred's -u option?
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07:34<petn-randall>FelixActually: Do you want to shred the whole drive?
07:35<FelixActually>It's mostly empty, but should I?
07:35<ratrace>I would.
07:36<ratrace>and -u wouldn't have an effect on block device
07:36<FelixActually>What do you mean?
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07:37<ratrace>-u is meant for files. if you use shred on a block device (eg /dev/sdc), there's no point
07:37<petn-randall>this ^
07:37<FelixActually>What about /dev/sdc1? Since I couldn't seem to mount /dev/sdc itself
07:37<bch>Hello, does anyone know roughly when debian 11 will be released? (only a rough estimate would help me a lot)
07:37<petn-randall>FelixActually: That's because you don't understand what partitions are, apparently.
07:38<ratrace>FelixActually: that's also a block device (partition) and not a file to remove
07:38<petn-randall>FelixActually: sdc is the drive (with all data from beginning to end), and sdc1 is the first partition on that drive (with all the data of that partition)
07:38<ratrace>FelixActually: also, shred the entire physical drive, don't care about partitions or whats on it
07:38<FelixActually>I can't mount /dev/sdc itself though
07:38<ratrace>FelixActually: I am assuming this is still about shredding the disk before RTM
07:38<petn-randall>FelixActually: Why should you be able to? It's a blank drive, not a filesystem.
07:38<FelixActually>What do you mean "blank"?
07:39<petn-randall>sdc is the "bare" drive, it doesn't start with a filesystem.
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07:39<petn-randall>Your filesystem is on the partition sdc1.
07:40<FelixActually>So mounting /dev/sdc1 and using shred on it is correct?
07:40<jm_>bch: no one knows
07:40<ratrace>FelixActually: why mount? just shred the entire disk. that's the disk you want to RTM, yes?
07:40<FelixActually>I would have thought that mounting it would be required to delete everything on it
07:40<grawity>you should probably be using ATA Secure Erase instead
07:40<FelixActually>I don't understand how it works
07:41<FelixActually>I can't use ATA Secure Erase, it says it bricks USB drives, which mine is
07:41<ratrace>it doesn't say it bricks USB drives :) are we really going over this again
07:41<petn-randall>FelixActually: I don't understand why we're having this discussion over and over for the last three days. Why is this not moving forward?
07:42<ratrace>anyhoo. if you want to RTM that drive, just shred the entire disk. I'd also run sgdisk -Z before to zap all the partitions so the kernel is not confused when things disappear ungracefully
07:42<petn-randall>FelixActually: If you want to shred the device, unmount sdc1, and shred sdc.
07:44<FelixActually>ratrace: "WARNING: Do not attempt to do this through a USB interface"
07:44<FelixActually>It says that on the website that was linked
07:45<grawity>that's mainly due to the specific USB-SATA adapter
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07:46<petn-randall>FelixActually: Ok, you don't want to secure erase it then. Use shred and let's move on.
07:46<grawity>adapters of this kind are very much hit or miss in lots of ways
07:46<petn-randall>Please not this discussion *again*.
07:47<ratrace>Crucial M4 is an SSD and those have terribly buggy firmwares and some disks can "brick" themselves in regular use
07:47<ratrace>but yeah, indeed. shred /dev/sdc ; done
07:47<FelixActually>What other options are there for attaching an external hard drive, apart from plugging it in inside the PC?
07:47<petn-randall>FelixActually: What is wrong with that option?
07:48<FelixActually>That removes the point of it being external
07:48<FelixActually>If I'd wanted a backup hard drive that goes inside the computer, I wouldn't have bought an external one
07:49<petn-randall>FelixActually: I thought you're asking for the specific case of secure erase.
07:49<vertuxt>dont forget to zero out an SSD afterwards to allow wear leveling to work on the entire disk
07:49<ratrace>I think at this point this is no longer acceptable level of support. use shred, or dd, whatever, you ahve the options, you know what to do. RTM the drive, get a replacement, enjoy.
07:49<petn-randall>vertuxt: It's a spinning disk last time FelixActually asked.
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07:50<ratrace>Crucial M4 is mentioned in the linked warning about "bricking" drives through USB using SATA secure erase
07:50<ratrace>if that bricks a drive, that's bug in teh firmware and the drive should be RTM'd and replaced.
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07:51<FelixActually>So what's my best option for encrypting the data when I get a new drive?
07:52<ratrace>cryptsetup and LUKS
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07:53<FelixActually>Is that simple to use?
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07:53<vertuxt>If you use the installer its quite easy
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07:55<vertuxt>You only need to select that in the partitioning and follow the process. For Data only drives you could use gnome-disks IIRC
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07:56<FelixActually>Are there other options available which aren't for GNOME?
07:57<petn-randall>FelixActually: Which DE are you using?
07:57<FelixActually>KDE Plasma
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07:58<vertuxt>for sure, you asked for easy usage.
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08:11<manichayan>well hello there!
08:11<teeboy>where are thee from?
08:12<petn-randall>teeboy: Hi, do you have a Debian support question?
08:12<teeboy>sorry just new to irc, couldn't hide my excitement!!
08:13<teeboy>I'll show myself out
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08:14<petn-randall>Hahahaha ... ok.
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08:15<FelixActually>petn-randall: What is KDE vaults? Does it use LUKS?
08:15<petn-randall>FelixActually: I don't know. Did you read the description?
08:16<FelixActually>It just says "File encryption widget"
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08:17<petn-randall>FelixActually: You know just as much as I do.
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08:21<FelixActually>What packages do I need to uninstall to get rid of the proprietary Nvidia driver?
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08:23<ratrace>FelixActually: nvidia-* as pattern for apt. apt remove 'nvidia-*'
08:24<FelixActually>ratrace: Thanks
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08:24<FelixActually>do I need the single quote marks?
08:25<Langley>Hello, I have just installed Debian 10.9 with Cinnamon, but I can't get autologin to work. I have edited lightdm.conf but it doesn't work, any ideas?
08:25<ratrace>FelixActually: yes or else * will be parsed by shell ; which might not be a problem in _this_ case becasue apt would ignore local files but...
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08:25<ratrace>FelixActually: also, using wildcards like that is not really recommended, but in this case as there's many packages invovled, no single one to remove and cascade to others, and they are all named nvidia-<something>
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08:26<FelixActually>I installed vrms and it seems I have only a few
08:26<ratrace>(in this case it's not unacceptable)
08:26<cc>I have always wondered why 'apt show xxxx' does not tell you if you have this package installed or not
08:27<cc>it is such an annoyance in my opinion
08:28<grawity>I tend to use `apt policy xxxx`
08:28<grawity>shows you all the versions available *and* the one that is installed
08:28<cc>yes but that does not show you what the package actually is
08:28<ratrace>FelixActually: what about it?
08:29<FelixActually>These are the packages listed by vrms for me
08:29<FelixActually>Can I safely uninstall all of them?
08:29<Anarka>virtual beard
08:29<FelixActually>Virtual Richard Matthew Stallman, it lists packages which are non-free
08:30<ratrace>you can safely uninstall 'nvidia-*' named packages, and the automatic dependencies will be dropped too, you can then `apt autoremove` them in the next step, if they aren't all in the first
08:30<ratrace>y'all are not kidding, it really is a "Virtual RMS" ...... ffffff
08:31<FelixActually>What about the packages starting with lib, libgl1, libglx, etc in that list?
08:31<ratrace>they're the automatic ones
08:32<ratrace>so, again, you can safely remove 'nvidia-*' and that will drop all the related packages; you reboot for nouveau to take over (or if you have a non-nvidia GPU, then its driver)
08:33<Anarka>you sure you dont want the official nvidia drivers ? not just because of vrms
08:34<FelixActually>Yes, I absolutely don't want the official Nvidia drivers, because they're nonfree
08:34<FelixActually>I'd rather not have an Nvidia card either, but it's not like AMD is much better
08:34<ratrace>but it is, at least it's fully open sourced
08:34<ratrace>okay okay, sans the firmware.
08:34<Anarka>arent amd open source ?
08:35<Anarka>ohh that
08:35<FelixActually>AMD processors also contain something like the Intel Management Engine, called the AMD Platform Secure Processor
08:35<ratrace>and rumour has it, a "big GPU name" will announce something about... something open source, soon.... some are placing bets to nvidia opensourcing the drivers
08:35<FelixActually>Well I wouldn't be surprised
08:36<FelixActually>But I would be surprised if they'd call it free software and suddenly commit to ethics
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08:36<manichayan>we are awefully quick :l #debian
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08:37<FelixActually>I still have libnvidia-glcore. Can that be removed?
08:37<ratrace>FelixActually: is it part of teh list you can `autoremove` ?
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08:38<FelixActually>How do I list what can be autoremoved?
08:38<ratrace>"The following packages were automatically installed and are no longer required" list . that list you `apt autoremove`
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08:38<ratrace>FelixActually: you just `apt autoremove` and it'll ask for confirmation ; or use -s with that
08:38<FelixActually>Yes, it's in that list
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08:41<FelixActually>ratrace: So does that mean I can remove it?
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09:07<dpkg>This is not a chat channel, this is a Debian user support channel. Unless you have a Debian support question, please chat elsewhere, like #debian-offtopic (either freenode or oftc) or #moocows on, ##chat on, or search for a chat topic of your choice at
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09:09<richard_h>hi - hopefully not too OT. Struggling with grep colors
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09:09<richard_h>I want to change the background color for matching text, because I'm only matching whitespace
09:09<richard_h>is that doable?
09:10<grawity>it seems so; grep the manual for GREP_COLORS
09:11<richard_h>I'm reading that. I'm not sure I'm understanding it, though :-(
09:11<grawity>I think you want to set the 'mt=' color in there (for "matching text")
09:11<richard_h>I also have open for reference for the colors themselves
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09:12<grawity>there's a summary at the end of that section, but basically 40..49 and 100..109 are background colors
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09:13<grawity>so putting mt=41 in that environment variable gives you red background, etc
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09:14<richard_h>ah - I think I was failing to set the variable, which doesn't help :-)
09:15<richard_h>got it - thanks
09:15<richard_h>I was setting but not exporting the variable
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09:16<richard_h>the default sets ms and mc; that's enough, just setting those in the 40's instead of the 30's
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09:36<r4fkramer>Please, which means an 'unsigned' Linux image ?I see that these images for Linux Kernel are constant in the Debian repository ....
09:38<somiaj>It means the kernel has not yet been signed and can be used for secure boot
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09:40<r4fkramer>Fine somiaj, thank you for information
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09:44<r4fkramer>However, 'signed' images are preferable to 'unsigned' in the most stable versions, from what I see here ....
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09:45<r4fkramer>'linux-image-4.19.0-14-amd64 - Linux 4.19 for 64-bit PCs (signed)' is the image that comes standard with a debian installation.
09:45<somiaj>If you aren't using secure boot it does not matter
09:45<somiaj>but it takes a while to sign new kernel images, so for those who use secure boot it is very important they know which kernels are signed and which are not
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09:47<somiaj>what kernels are you seeing that are not signed, I thought most of the stable kernels were
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09:50<r4fkramer>I use both: the stable version 4.19, which is signed; and this other one: 'linux-image-5.10.0-0.bpo.5-amd64-unsigned - Linux 5.10 for 64-bit PCs'
09:51<r4fkramer>Note that this last one is 'unsigned', and I never understood clearly what should be the difference between them.
09:52<r4fkramer>Well, this 5.10 is not completely stable, I suppose.
09:52<somiaj>Did you not hear what I said
09:52<somiaj>It only depends if you use secureboot
09:52<somiaj>It has nothing to do with stability or the quality of the kernel package
09:53<r4fkramer>OK, somiaj, trying to understand these differences here
09:53<somiaj>That is the difference, one can be used with secureboot, one cannot. That is all
09:54<somiaj>secureboots require keys to verify the intergity of the kernel to keep a machine from booting other kernels (it is a security measure)
09:54<grawity>hmm, do both have signed *modules*? (not secureboot-signed, just the regular linux "module signing" thing)
09:54<r4fkramer>Fine, I got a bit confusion because didn't understand very well when you said: ' what kernels are you seeing that are not signed, I thought most of the stable kernels were'
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09:55<r4fkramer>Now, it's clear.
09:55<somiaj>note debian supporting secure boot is still relativally new, buster was the first release with this.
09:55<r4fkramer>Fine, grawity, thank you for information :)
09:56<r4fkramer>yes somiaj, I realized that.
09:56<r4fkramer>That's why I needed to ask you about these differences
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09:57<somiaj>Modern uefi firmware machines can use secureboot to allow the admin to control exactly which kernels it is allowed to boot. This prevents someone with physical access from say plugging in a usb stick with a live system on it and booting it
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09:57<somiaj>It provdies a verification (via a signature) to help with physical attacks of hardware.
10:00<r4fkramer>Fine ! Now it's cleared than before. Really thank you.
10:00<Sark>It's a neat idea, but I wonder if, like BIOS passwords, this is one of those features that only .1% of people will ever bother to use.
10:00<r4fkramer>I still have some other doubts, regarding the differences in versions. But this I will analyze further before asking you something here.
10:00<r4fkramer>I don't want to tire you with naive questions, any more than I have already tired the Debian Community here.
10:00<r4fkramer>Thank you for attention somiaj.
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10:02<somiaj>Sark: It might be much higher in the enviorment where such a thing is needed, such as a large data center, so though maybe lots of end users don't desire/need the extra layer, doesn't mean it dosn't have its use.
10:02<r4fkramer>Fine Sark
10:02<Sark>Oh, I'm not saying it doesn't - just curious, that's all. It's one of those extra things that got added to PCs recently enough that I've never seen it implemented.
10:03<somiaj>Things are constantally evolving as more and more sensitive data gets put on computers.
10:03<Sark>Like, it's super rare to ever find a machine someone set a BIOS password on, but I've seen it done, at schools, for instance.
10:04<grawity>BIOS passwords used to be more common when PCs ran like Win98
10:05<grawity>around the era when PCs still occassionally had physical keys, too
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10:06<somiaj>Just like anything dealing with security, it is all about the security model. Is physical access something you are concerned about? How concerned? Concerned enough to put extra layers of protection on.
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10:06<Sark>Hah - those physical key locks on PCs... now that's something that died off pretty quick. It locked out the keyboard - wonder how something like that would be implemented if someone tried it now. That was at the low, hardware level - keyboard wouldn't work in the BIOS either.
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10:07<Sark>IBM used to have key locks on their terminals, you could lock the thing and the screen would go blank, keyboard wouldn't work, and there'd just be the connected status line up - but it would save your place and keep your session going.
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10:13<TheRay>me cant run bot its #ircrobot on debian i run
10:13<TheRay>Program.cs(63,21): warning CS0162: Unreachable code was detected. Program.cs(77,39): warning CS0162: Unreachable code was detected. Program.cs(122,63): warning CS0162: Unreachable code has been detected. Program.cs(89,25): warning CS0219: The variable "hello_count" is assigned, but its value is never used.
10:13<TheRay>halp me
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10:16<bremner>TheRay: I guess you should talk the author of that software, unless it is you
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10:17<TheRay>help please
10:17<psusi>how can I search for all packages that provide a /usr/bin/mail alternative?
10:18<bremner>TheRay: file a github issue? this is not really a debian support question.
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10:19<somiaj>psusi: maybe debtags can help do this
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10:20<somiaj>psusi: mail::user-agent -- maybe that debtag would be useful to search
10:20<bremner>I guess alternatives don't show up in apt-file search necessarily
10:21<somiaj>yea, because they are implemented via postinstall scripts
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10:22<psusi>in the past I've used mailutils but for some silly reason that wants to bring in a bunch of stuff incluing mysql and gobbles up 50 mb of disk space.. seems like a lot just for a simple command line mail
10:23<somiaj>psusi: have you tried including --no-install-recommends
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10:25<somiaj>well mailutils has mail::user-agent tag
10:25<JanC>psusi: search for packages that provide 'mailx' ?
10:25<somiaj>psusi: are you on buster?
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10:25<somiaj>psusi: aptitude search ~Gmail::user-agent
10:26<psusi>somiaj: no.. bullseye
10:26<somiaj>psusi: new in bullseye y ou can now use most those with apt
10:26<somiaj>psusi: sweet, apt list ~Gmail::user-agent
10:26<JanC>user-agent also gives you GUI clients etc., I suppose?
10:26<psusi>ahh... how does one parse that expression?
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10:26<somiaj>psusi: ahh nevermind, apt doesn't support deb-tag searching, have to use aptitude
10:26<somiaj>psusi: man apt-patterns
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10:27<somiaj>psusi: ~G = debtag, so ~Gmail::user-agent matches any package with that debtag
10:28<somiaj>psusi: (note apt in bullseye supports most of those but not this one aperntally)
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10:28<somiaj>psusi: but aptitude did a good job listing 48 matching packages
10:28<somiaj>psusi: you can also install debtags
10:28<psusi>hrm... I don't see ~G in man apt-patterns
10:29<somiaj>psusi: yea, because it isn't :/ so check the link I pasted and use aptitude
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10:29<somiaj>(I'm still learning which flags were impemented in apt)
10:29<psusi>maybe I'll just build and install mu4e
10:32<somiaj>bsd-mailx if you want simple
10:32<somiaj>also I lied about the package number, that search returned both amd64 and i386, so there is only about half of that to search though
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10:34<somiaj>psusi: -- there you don't have to install aptitude if you don't want
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10:40<prahal>my ideacentre 310s does not send 5v on hdmi pin 18, is this a common issue ?
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10:41<prahal>this breaks hotplug detect (without forcing hdmi on with video= boot option no display with amdgpu kernel > 4.17)
10:42<somiaj>prahal: but it works fine with older kernels < 4.17?
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10:43<somiaj>prahal: though maybe not exactly helpful, do you have firmware-amd-graphics installed (don't know if firmware will help with your actual issue though)
10:43<prahal>yes it could be that amdgpu before the dc code switch was not using hotplug detect
10:44<somiaj>so this issue could possiblity just be something with your hardware not functioning proplly?
10:44<prahal>yes firmware-amd-graphics. I am pretty confident this is HW per
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10:45<somiaj>prahal: Do you hotplug this monintor/port a lot?
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10:45<prahal>ie the hdmi source (PC) is the one that ought to send 5V on pin 18 that is then redirected by the hdmi sink (monitor) to pin 19 for hotplug detection
10:46<somiaj>I know I had a monintor I had to use/force xorg to use a custom EDID with to get it to work, ther emaybe workarounds.
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10:46<prahal>but with a cut hdmi cable and a voltage meter I see all my hdmi source send 5V except this PC
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10:47<somiaj>might just be you have to find a workaround, maybe faulty hardware (you can't plug in another videocard into that machine?)
10:47<psusi>prahal: soudns about right
10:47<psusi>the 5v is also used to power the EEPROM that holds the EDID information
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10:48<prahal>yes forcing edid is one good way to skin the cat but edid reading works (but I believe only when the monitor is powered on due to missing 5V from the PC) if I force the kernel drm code to treat HDMI as connected (ie setting video=HDMI-A-1:1920x1080D on the kernel command line does this for amdgpu at least
10:49<psusi>so once you force it on, it starts supplying the 5v?
10:49<prahal>so all is working with video= (edid, hdmi sound)
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10:50<prahal>no the 5V is never on (well I cannot test live with my hdmi cutted cable), but when the monitor is powered on it provides enough power on its on for edid reading
10:50<psusi>so you just have to have the monitor on when you boot the pc? why do you have to force the drm code to treat it as connected then?
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10:51<prahal>though I am quite angry, this PC is told HDMI ready but it fails to follow HDMI standard (sending 5V on pin 18 when powered on)
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10:53<prahal>yes monitor on is required at least when the edid is read. drm code in amdgpu above linux 4.17 test hpd (hotplug detect, hdmi pin 19) which is signal sent by the monitor when plugged but this signal is powered by the PC itself (from hdmi pin 18°
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10:53<prahal>or so that is what I understood from docs
10:53<prahal>I am quite puzzled that a lenovo desktop fails to follow hdmi requirements
10:53<psusi>that's my understanding as well
10:54<prahal>who s to be trusted to deliver proper HW ....
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10:54<psusi>nobody... I once wrote a floppy disk driver for ReactOS and wondered why the hell it worked fine under bochs emulator but not on real hardware
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10:55<psusi>the hardware probe commands just did not detect the drive type on actual hardware
10:55<psusi>I finally realized that windows and linux floppy drivers did not use the probe commands and just relied on what the user had set in the bios cmos settings for the floopy type and the reason they did that is because though the hardware spec says there should be a probe command, nobody ever actually implemented it
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10:59<krumelmonster>I'm setting up a new debian system which is supposed to have full disk encryption eventually. However, for now I want this system to boot without any interaction. Ideally, there'd be a solution where all I have to do to "turn on" encryption would be to remove the keyslot of the placeholder password. Is it possible?
11:00<bremner>krumelmonster: do you have physical access? You could use a usb key based keyfile
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11:00<prahal>with lenovo yoga serie 1 ... I was able to replace the faulty internal cables . Here I seem to be stuck. And no warnings on the net about this issue.
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11:01<ratrace>krumelmonster: you can't do exactly what you listed. if you use LUKS, you can't turn off/on, but what you can do is embed keys into initramfs or via keyscripts from another accessible location, for noninteractive boot
11:01<prahal>psusi: thanks I probably have to live with that matter of fact that cheating is the norm
11:02<ratrace>you can also have multiple keys, so later you can alwys destroy (unslot) the key that was embeded or available in plaintext for non-interactive boot
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11:02<prahal>somiaj: I tend to turn of the monitor a lot
11:04<krumelmonster>bremner: USB-Keyfile would be an option. Will this interfer means of entering a different secret (via keyboard or dropbear)?
11:04<bremner>krumelmonster: iirc, you can have several options. cryptsetup(1) should have the details
11:05<bremner>or crypttab(5)
11:05<prahal>to save power. I also am a bit worried for newbies. Cutting an hdmi cable to measure voltage is not that first idea that came to my mind ... so many hours lost
11:06<somiaj>prahal: I'm impressed at your level of dedication to tracking down the issue. Is this a new pc?
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11:14<krumelmonster>I couldn't find out if or how I could use crypttab to first try a usb keyfile and then ask for a password as a fallback (and I'd still be curious about that) BUT I did find the try-empty-password=yes option in crypttab(5) which is precisely what I was looking for.
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11:15<ratrace>krumelmonster: if none of the "keyscripts" provide what you want, you can always write a custom "keyscript"
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11:32<prahal>somiaj: it was back when I investigated
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11:32<prahal>more than a year ago . But I got exhausted in the process and left it until now
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12:26<sappheiros>Is this command okay to execute? I recall someone didn't like how it modified a system file, but I got the impression this was only not best-practice, not dangerous per se: echo "deb [signed-by=/usr/share/keyrings/brave-browser-archive-keyring.gpg arch=amd64] stable main"|sudo tee /etc/apt/sources.list.d/brave-browser-release.list
12:27<sappheiros>(This command is part of the official Brave Browser installation instructions at )
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12:28<sappheiros>actually it looks to me it's going in a special folder /etc/apt/sources.list.d, not editing the main sources list after all
12:29<somiaj>sappheiros: you have to make up your own mind. Some third party package creaters are sane and don't include crazy depends or pull in crazy stuff. Others do.
12:29<olasd>it's as good as it gets for "upstream instructions for adding a third party source to sources.list"
12:29<somiaj>sappheiros: if you edit a single file vs extra files in /etc/apt/soruces.list.d/ is up to how you want to manage your sources.
12:29<sappheiros>somiaj, is that done by examining their Github page primarily?
12:29<olasd>(uses a separate keyring file, drops a snippet in sources.list.d, pins to a single architecture
12:30<somiaj>sappheiros: in this case it is about the actual package and repo (not github)
12:30<somiaj>sappheiros: being just a browser it should be okay, but in #debian I won't state the trust/quality/etc of third party repos.
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12:32<sappheiros>I would ask you in #debian-offtopic but I can't tab-complete you there.
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12:34<somiaj>I'm just pointing out that you are placing your trust in creater of said software/repo. Provided you are okay with that, as olasd stated, the actual commands are reasonable
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12:36*olasd nods somiaj
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12:52<sych1ll>someone, i think jhutchins, suggested i use zram-tools to create a compressed swap area, which would reduce swapping times. It looks like i also have the opion of putting a swap file on a transparently compressed BTRFS partition. Anyone have an idea of which approach is likely better? Physical ram is 4gb, and the drive is an SSD. Regardless of whether I opt for the swap partition or btrfs swap file,
12:53<sych1ll>it will likely be on an encrypted volume (LUKS)
12:54<gusto-fanatic>Is compressing and then writing a file to disk actually faster than just writing the uncompressed file to disk?
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12:55<jmcnaught>The idea with zram is a compressed *RAM* disk, you get more memory at the expense of some CPU time.
12:55<sych1ll>gusto-fanatic: i'm not sure, but i think the suggestion was made because i/o times would shrink, and i/o tends to be the bottleneck AFAIK
12:55<sych1ll>ah, it was jmcnaught's suggestion.. now i remember
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12:56<jmcnaught>For example, you have 4GB of RAM, you use 1GB to make a compressed zram disk, use it as swap space.
12:57<sych1ll>note that SSD space is not an issue.. swap space is negligible in my case. But if less data has to move to/from the drive that should really help i would think
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12:57<jmcnaught>zram is not about compressing swap on a drive.
12:58<sych1ll>i thought that was the whole point of zram-tools.. to compess the swap partition contents
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12:59<jmcnaught>No, you make a RAM disk that is compressed, use the RAM disk as swap.
12:59<jmcnaught>It's a way of compressing your RAM to fit more in your RAM.
12:59<Sqrt{not}>sych1ll, I think we saw someone trying to put a swap file on btrfs recently, and it is not supported
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13:00<sych1ll>Sqrt{not}: how recent? "Since Linux kernel 5.0, Btrfs has native swap file support"
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13:00<Sqrt{not}>like yesterday, but I don't remember the kernel version they were abusing
13:01<sych1ll>this guy says don't use btrfs, but he said that in 2015:
13:01<somiaj>well stable isn't on 5.0
13:01<somiaj>though always best to wait for new features to mature a bit IMO.
13:01<sych1ll>somiaj: it will be soon. bullseye is 5.10 and it's nealy stable
13:01<somiaj>oh it will be, but if the person was running buster could have been the issue
13:04<sych1ll>jmcnaught> No, you make a RAM disk that is compressed, use the RAM disk as swap. <= that sounds like a bad idea, no? i mean, the 4gb of ram is precious and shortage of it is what causes the swapping. Also, sounds like a recipe for disaster in suspend to disk hibernation scenarios
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13:05<sych1ll>well, if it will make 4gb of ram effectively like 5 or 6gb, maybe there's merit to that
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13:06<jmcnaught>That's the idea. There is a zram-tools package to facilitate this, you can always turn it off and purge the package if you don't like how it works.
13:06<sych1ll>but i wonder if hibernation would be a disaster.. it would have to distinguish persistently stored swap from zram-tools
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13:08<sych1ll>so perhaps i should try combining zram-tools with also having a compressed btrfs swap file together
13:08<jmcnaught>I don't know how it will interact with hibernation.
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13:14<Sqrt{not}>what helped me the most on this machine, was adding 8GB of ram to supplement the 4GB that came with it when new.
13:14<somiaj>you must run a that so much ram is needed for those beasts.
13:16<agentcasey> /win 3
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13:17<sych1ll>somiaj: yeah it's mostly reckless web developers who assume everyone runs machines as modern as they do
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13:17<sych1ll>Sqrt{not}: in my case it would cost $130 to go from 4gb to 8gb b/c the ram is ddr2
13:18<sych1ll>i would rather create a lean and clever system than follow the crowd and throw money at it
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13:20<somiaj>sych1ll: As one of those 'reckless web devs', it is such a hard thing to deal with. It is so nice to be able to write an internet app and not worry about what browser/os/distro/etc someone is running, though it has basically turned browsers into min oses.
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13:20<somiaj>Note even on a simple page with very little css, the memeory ussage is still high, the browser loads all that stuff if or if not the page needs it
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13:22<sych1ll>when i run the task manager (ctrl-esc), it shows memory consumption on a per-tab basis. There is a huge variation
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13:23<sych1ll>many pages need ~15mb, but a Pleroma page needs upwards of 125mb
13:24<sych1ll>something every web developer should see =>
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13:24<somiaj>oh yea, pages can eat up a lot more, but I find even the amount needed for simple pages with just a little css (using bootstrap) is quite high
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13:25<somiaj>I know you can do it with less, but it is really hard to get by with just a very simple html page anymore
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13:27<sych1ll>this search engine only shows lightweight websites =>
13:27<Sqrt{not}>yes exactly, I see multiple separate tasks for the browser, wanting to run even when not focussed, with BIG memory footprints
13:28<sappheiros>Is dirvish still the preferred debian backup method? (i found )
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13:29<somiaj>sappheiros: 'preffered' is totally dependent on use case. You should use one that works for your needs (I personally just use rsync scripts)
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13:31<sych1ll>i find rsync most useful for local backups. If you are backing up to the cloud then duplicity is essential
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13:32<sych1ll>although i've not tried dirvish
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13:34<somiaj>sappheiros: also a large pat of backup is recoery, and a complicated system which is hard to recover may not be as useful as a simple system that is easy to recover
13:34<sappheiros>dirvish seems a program for backing up the entire disk of one computer to another; it seems i should uninstall it and only use rsync just to backup my Documents folder
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13:36<somiaj>that is my backup method, I only backup my user data, then reinstall the os and copy user data back, but it depends a lot on use case
13:37<sych1ll>is transparent compression the main selling point of btrfs? if i create a btrfs partition i'd like to have an idea of what kind of data to put on it
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13:46<sych1ll>"Efficient incremental backup" is one of the btrfs features.
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13:51<sappheiros>please consider registering Debian domains for BAT income:
13:54<alex11>somiaj, user data like just /home?
13:55<alex11>i'm not sure what all i should be backing up, i've been doing /var /etc /home /usr/local and /root
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13:58<sappheiros>don't folders other than /home depend on installed packages, i.e. they'd have to be redone anyway?
13:59<sappheiros>or do you mean to create a mirror image with packages already installed to recover to?
13:59<sappheiros>(i suppose that makes more sense depending on your use for the device)
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14:08<somiaj>alex11: /home is often enough unless you do a lot of cusomtizing in /etc, but if you just use the default configuration files, you only need to backup the ones you actually modify
14:09<sappheiros>Can rsync not be done between /home and an external USB drive? 'rsync /home /media/main/MacWinData/linux' results in only the message, 'skipping directory home'. if i say home/ then it says 'skipping directory .'
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14:10<qman>You must supply appropriate options
14:10<sappheiros>okay, thanks. that was my guess and i'm reading info rsync again now to more detail
14:11<qman>rsync -a is probably what you want but RTFM
14:11<sappheiros>indeed, thank you (i was guessing maybe it would be '-r' for 'recursive' = 'everything inside' but a makes more sense for 'all' ...)
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14:13<alex11>well, /home and /usr/local and /root
14:13<alex11>i'm not sure how you back up cronjobs
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14:15<qman>/var/spool/cron for user crontabs, rest is in /etc/cron*
14:15<sych1ll>oh shit, Btrfs can support swap files but only if they are not compressed, which defeats my idea.
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14:23<alex11>qman, what about root crontabs?
14:23<alex11>nvm i can't read
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14:30<plaur>sych1ll: compression, data checksums, snapshots... although i'd be hard pressed to see something that other filesystems don't do better, and btrfs does have some issues, like with raid
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14:32<plaur>it's used for many years on opensuse, which use it for updates as transactions, and it's now the new default in fedora, since F33 - with facebook using it internally
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14:33<plaur>facebook uses it because they can save lots of money at their scale, relying on btrfs checksums to detect when disks go bad - but they very likely store the same data distributed, redundant, and they have the kernel engineers to fix kernel bugs that appear
14:34<plaur>copy-on-write makes it a pain for VM images, i had abysmal perfomance on fedora (until I turned off COW for that directory)
14:36<bremner>is there an easy way to script adding a (local) alias for postfix? for $reasons I don't want to use a full CMS for this
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14:46<cargova>A question about the CVE-2021-23017 #989095 nginx bug that was published yesterday: I made a debdiff patch that imitates the upstream patch by nginx developers. It's been a day and the severity is set to "grave". Shall I send the patch to the bug mailing list or would that be meaningless?
14:46<judd>Bug in src:nginx (open, security, upstream): «nginx: CVE-2021-23017: DNS Resolver off-by-one heap write vulnerability»; severity: grave; opened: 2021-05-25; last modified: 2021-05-25.
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14:49<Konomi>general question, is it worth using deb-multimedia with debian anymore? I remember people needing it for decss but that's a long gone issue
14:49<sych1ll>plaur: i was thinking btrfs would be good for VM images, which would be useful to compress. but considering that pitfall & the fact that swapfiles must exceptionally be uncompressed, i guess it's of no use to me
14:49<cargova>Does this patch seem okay and does it even make sense to submit it?
14:49<bremner>Konomi: not afaik. At least I haven't needed it for years
14:50<Konomi>bremner: hmm might get rid of it then, I can't really think of a reason for it anymore
14:50<Konomi>it feels like aside from just having decss back way then it's just a smaller backports now really?
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15:03<sappheiros>Would you please help me understand what this command is doing? Is it downloading a fingerprint from the specified URL? VERSION="23.0.0"
15:03<sappheiros>wget -q -O - "${URL}" | tar -zxOf - "${KEYS_FILE}" | while read FINGERPRINT _; do gpg --recv-keys "${FINGERPRINT}"; done
15:04<sappheiros>oops. meant to paste only a small part of that ... but I don't see ahhhh
15:04<sappheiros>yeah it's downloading a tar and then opening that tar to read its fingerprint with gpg, right?
15:04<somiaj>it is downloading a key and then sending it to gpg to put it into your key database for future use
15:05<sappheiros>thanks for the confirmation. i got a little paranoid that i might be wrong about the syntax and that it might be creating a tar to output to that URL instead of downloading from it
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15:07<somiaj>pay attenion to the tar options, 'x' is extract not 'c' for create, must mean you are downloading a tar
15:07<somiaj>yea it is,
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15:07<somiaj>anyways this is one of the powers of unix/linux, is that you can chain together operations and thus be able to share simple programs with people without writing a speical program for just one purpose.
15:07<sappheiros>i am working on self-discipline to learn every command before i execute it, and i am wondering whether i really have the time to be doing this (time to be learning linux) ...
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15:11<somiaj>a lot boils down to trust, if you trust the source you may not have to worry as much, but it is still nice to kow basically what is going on
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15:23<sappheiros>thank you
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15:24<sappheiros>is it bad practice to mkdir in /home? I want to setup a server-type of program, and i thought it would be good to be outside of /home/user to be 'separate from' the folder containing my personal files
15:24<sappheiros>should i make it in / instead of /home?
15:24<sney>depends on what account will be running the program
15:25<sappheiros>do i need more than one account? i was intending to do everything from a single user account, both personal and business
15:25<psusi>well it could be a problem if you later create a user with that name
15:25<sappheiros>(but most of my personal stuff is a different machine)
15:25<sney>daemons with service accounts usually run out of /var or /usr/share, but if you're running something as your user it's fine to keep it in /home
15:25<sappheiros>so /home is intended only for debian10 stuff and user account directories?
15:26<dpkg>Debian follows the Filesystem Hierarchy Standard. The filesystem is categorized by purpose, not application. This allows, for example, the easy and efficient deployment of a read-only /usr area across a number of thin clients. See or install the 'debian-policy' package (/usr/share/doc/debian-policy/fhs/*), or, or "man hier".
15:26<somiaj>I personally use /home/foo for locations since /home is often a bigger partition than / is for me, though /opt and /usr/local are also common places to put third party software
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15:26<psusi>though it is probably a good idea to NOT run the server as the same account you use that might have say, sudo access.
15:26<somiaj>Use /usr/local/ for softawre that splits into bin/ lib/ share/ etc like unix, use /opt for software that likes to live in its own directory (is the standard)
15:27<somiaj>But I have stuff like /home/sagemath, /home/maple, etc because my / partition is often a bit small for very large single directory softare such as the two I mentioned
15:27<somiaj>and this is just due to I like to keep / reltaivally small, and then most my data is in /home
15:28<sappheiros>well ... basically i was thinking to run a full crypto node, and i thought it good to try to put all that in its own folder distinct from my user files
15:28<sappheiros>(e.g. since it will download >200 GB data)
15:28<omegatron>creating a new user and group is easily done with useradd and groupadd .. (create the group first ...!)
15:28<ratrace>service databases, which can be their home dirs too, can go under /var/lib/
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15:28<sappheiros>omegatron, doesn't debian10 have a nice GUI for that? ...
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15:29<omegatron>I guess it has ..
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15:29<sappheiros>thanks for the idea. it makes sense that i should switch users and do it there ...
15:29<omegatron> and might help on that topic too
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15:30<somiaj>debian doen'st really have a gui for this, but debian has 'adduser' which is a bit nicer to use than 'useradd' which is so much nicer I miss it on non debian systems
15:30<somiaj>note adduser is really nice for actual users, system users useradd might be preferable
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15:31<omegatron>since he said he wants to read the manual of each program before executing it, he can freely choose his flavour =D
15:31<somiaj>omegatron: I woudln't link arch info for standard groups/users in debian, this will not agree
15:31<sappheiros>omegatron, yeah i bookmarked and thought i might come back years later x_x
15:31<somiaj> -- also debian groups may not have specific id numbers.
15:32<sappheiros>at this point i am thinking maybe i should just run the standard installation rather than try to specify things ...
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15:33<omegatron>it's just a rough "guide" - I setup systems on a regular base and use a completely other numbering system - the point here is, after he sees that debian may use other IDs, that the actual ID is not that relevent, with a few exceptions, and can be chosen freely
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15:34<sappheiros>thank you. ... ... I decided to go with the crypto node's default installation. I figure maybe sney's previous advice, "it's okay to experiment and try things and see what happens" ...
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15:35<somiaj>sure, but maybe it would be also useful to know which groups debian is already using and for what purpose. Helps decide if you want to use one of those or create a new one.
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15:36<sappheiros>yes. i hope to learn that later when my life isn't upside down right now ... incidentally this crypto node created a .folder in my /home/user directory ... that appears consistent with other programs' behavior
15:37<sappheiros>seems . indicates a hidden folder; dunno why it needs to be hidden though -- i guess so newbies won't drag it to the trash bin? ...
15:37<sney>config files are commonly stored in . dirs
15:37<sappheiros>oh. thanks.
15:37<sney>look at 'ls ~/.config' and you will see a lot of them
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15:38<sappheiros>indeed, thanks
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15:40<somiaj>sappheiros: it is mostly to allow for less clutter when looking at your more commonly used files with 'ls', and to allow one to use shell globing wild cards without nuking all of your configuration files
15:40<somiaj>sappheiros: though this also has downsides, you have to recall they are there with some tools, but it is a useful distinction
15:40<somiaj>usually you don't need to manually modify .dotfiles
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15:43<sappheiros>gotcha ty
15:44<at0m>ye dotfiles and dotdirs is usually left to the apps you run
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16:03<bandali>hi folks, quick question: is there a reliable way to programatically check whether a script is running on unstable?
16:03<bandali>for stable versions and even testing i've found ways (/etc/os-release, lsb_release, ...) but so far no clue about checking for unstable
16:04<sarnold>I don't think lsb_release is always available on debian
16:04<sney>'apt policy' output would tell you if a system is tracking stable
16:04<sney>er, unstable.
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16:05<sarnold>what would you want to do if the unstable repo is configured but pinned at a priority that means it is rarely used?
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16:06<sney>programatically checking apt policy would ideally parse the priority values, yeah
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16:07<bandali>right. yeah i don't think my use-case would need to more advanced user who selectively install packages from different repos
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16:07<bandali>just the usual simple 'are we basically completely running version X or not'
16:08<bandali>s/need to/need to cater to/
16:08<sney>mixing testing and unstable is relatively common for a lot of the testing cycle, but the policy output for that is predictable as well
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16:11<somiaj>bandali: testing/unstable is the best you can get during the marjority of the release cycle, and you really can't effictvally tell the differnce between them
16:11<somiaj>bandali: for many packages the difference is either none, or a 5-10 day lag
16:11<sney>that reminds me, I should probably disable sid now that we're pretty close to the release.
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16:12<bandali>somiaj, i see. truth be told, the use-case is adding a repo for it on
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16:12<bandali>we recently added one for testing, but was wondering if/how i could add one for unstable as well. but i guess that may not be necessary
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16:14<somiaj>are you building binaries against the libaries from testing I am assuming?
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16:14<bandali>(the debian:testing docker image, to be more specific)
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16:14<somiaj>I think for the most part they should be reasonablly work with sid
16:15<somiaj>though depending on the use case probably best to just target testing anyways, this way you can stabalize with it, and be ready for when it releases
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16:15<somiaj>though I would also use debian's method of using codnames bullesye vs testing
16:15<somiaj>make testing a link
16:16<bandali>i think we were thinking of adding an explicit debian_11 repo for bullseye once it's released, and keep our debian_testing afterwards
16:16<somiaj>but if you just call it bullseye, you can just point the testing link at bookworm once you change.
16:17<bandali>like, always provide builds for the current testing distro
16:17<somiaj>i.e. you are already setup and really little will change with the release
16:17<bandali>hm, that's probably fair
16:17<sych1ll>something really bizarre: I do "sed -e 's/stretch/bullseye/gi' /etc/apt/sources.list > /mnt/debian_target/etc/sources.list" to copy my previous sources.list to the new drive. I do "cat /mnt/debian_target/etc/sources.list" which shows everything went as expected. The i do "emacs /mnt/debian_target/etc/sources.list", and it shows the *default* version that was there previously. Even if I do
16:17<sych1ll>"revert-buffer" in emacs to force a re-read of the drive, it still shows the previous version. How is that possible? I even ran "sync" to make sure the disk writes are committed.
16:17<somiaj>that is what debian does, everythign is done by codenames, oldstable/stable/testing/unstable are just links that change at the release
16:18-!-mode/#debian [+l 879] by debhelper
16:18<somiaj>sych1ll: you don't want to do that, you have to upgrade though buster first
16:18<bandali>somiaj, btw, for debian's unstable repos, are packages rebuilt automatically when one or more of their dependencies are updated/rebuilt?
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16:18<somiaj>sych1ll: oh but that isn't your issue
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16:18<sych1ll>somiaj: i'm not doing dist upgrade. Bullseye is being installed from scratch
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16:19<somiaj>sych1ll: yea I just was surprised you were doing that swtich
16:19<somiaj>if you remove the > .., and just run the sed command it works as expected witht he output?
16:19<somiaj>sych1ll: also you are missing an apt, shouldn't it be /mnt/debian_target/etc/apt/sources.list
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16:19<somiaj>sych1ll: do you have the actual file just sitting in /etc by chance?
16:20<sych1ll>yeah sed works. As i said, I can "cat" the file and it's correct. Why does cat differ from what emacs sees?
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16:20<sych1ll>ah shit, thanks!
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16:21<sych1ll>apt/ missing.. good catch
16:21<mbieee>Hi everyone! I'm having trouble configuring my preseed.cfg file to prompt for the hostname. I've read the documentation but can't seem to figure out what I'm doing wrong.
16:21<somiaj>silly stuff can take way to long to debug
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16:22<mbieee>If anyone knows how to make that happen I'd really appreciate some help or a point in the right direction
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16:27<bandali>somiaj, kind ping, in case you didn't see my earlier msg
16:27<plaur>mbieee: not sure if that's possible. i guess commenting out "d-i netcfg/get_hostname <something>" should get it to ask you - but why would you want to be asked? imho the point of the preseed file is automate everything during the installation, not to get asked interactively.
16:28<plaur>mbieee: i would either configure the dhcp server to assign a hostname based on the MAC address, or simply use hostnamectl set-hostname after the installation
16:28<plaur>if you prefer doing it by hand
16:30<mbieee>plaur: I agree that the idea of the preseed is to automate as much as possible. However, if I can't force it to prompt for the hostname it will automatically assign something generic, like 'debian', to all the new installations.
16:31<mbieee>Is it expected that the hostname will be changed manually afterward?
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16:36<plaur>mbieee: what does it mean "expected"? you can force a specific hostname during installation via preseed (unpractical if you don't want a different pressed on each system, i assume you have more), the default is to accept the name given by the dhcp server
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16:38<plaur>the easiest way is to let the dhcp server give you the hostname, based on the mac address. that's how i would do it, even cheap home router let you do that
16:38<plaur>routers ^
16:41<mbieee>pluar: Ok, that's helpful. I'll do it in DHCP going forward. To shed some light on what I'm trying to accomplish... I'm trying to document the creation of a test/lab network from scratch. Part 01 covers using a preseed.cfg file to make building the necessary servers more efficient. It just so happens that part 02 will be covering DHCP, so perhaps I will improve the preseed.cfg at the end of that part.
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16:44<mbieee>PART-01: manual installation=bad, preseed.cfg=better, but not great without DHCP server PART-02 add DHCP, improve preseed, PART-03...
16:44<plaur>mbieee: you could use preseed.cfg to perform a minimal installation, assign the hostname through the dhcp server, and use e.g. ansible-pull to automatically configure the systems for different roles based on hostnames (which can be art of groups)
16:44<mbieee>Ha! You're reading my mind. Ansible is in there too
16:46<plaur>big companies usually order identical systems, so they can use a binary image that they dd to the disk, it's faster - same for cloud images
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16:47<mbieee>Good stuff. Thank you for the help. I now know how I need to proceed.
16:47<plaur>when you're big enough to order 100.000 servers, you can even pay the hardware provider to ship you pcs already written with your custom image from the factory, to save time :)
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16:48<plaur>mbieee: you're welcome
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16:50<mbieee>Yep. A long time ago when I was very early in my career my boss put me in charge of desktop imaging. We had specific ones for each model of PC as well as each region of the company. I was in charge of creating the gold images, but setting up the distribution was handled by another team.
16:50<mbieee>We were using MS SMS, before the days of SCCM.
16:52<plaur>yes, ansible (config management in general) is slow. people moved to immutable images, generated and tested automatically in CI, and if tests passed, deployed. it's faster and brings reproducibility
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16:53<mbieee>That was on the Windows side, though. I'm in security now, and my team needs a similar solution for the penetration testing machines we ship to customers. The goal is to document the process, implement it at work, and publish a how-to guide.
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16:53<mbieee>I'm getting to learn about preseed, PXE, Ansible, and others on work time :)
16:53*sych1ll struggles to work out the Debian equivalent of mkinitcpio hooks:
16:54<plaur>i find ansible is pretty good for documenting what you do. docker can also be a possibility
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16:55<plaur>mbieee: have fun :)
16:55<mbieee>plaur: You too! Thanks again!
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16:59<plaur>sych1ll: what are you trying to do? debian installer already supports full disk encryption. i assume arch in trying to include the necessary modules in initrd, on debian i guess you have to look at initramfs-tools. but it's already preconfigured and working if you selected encrypted lvm during installation
16:59<plaur>so i never bothered to look at it :)
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17:00<sych1ll>plaur: i'm using debootstrap instead of the installer
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17:01<sych1ll>apparently i need to set some initramfs-tools hooks but i'm not finding docs on this
17:01<plaur>sych1ll: asking on the debian-boot mailing list could help...
17:02<sych1ll>it's ultimately in support of an encrypted /boot setup.
17:02<sych1ll>i'm allergic to mailing lists.. too many servers reject my email these days so i've not bothered to deal with that can of worms
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17:03<plaur>i don't think you can boot from an encrypted /boot, since grub wouldn't be able to read the kernel
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17:03<sych1ll>grub supports luks1 (not luks2) ATM
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17:06<sych1ll>there is an empty /etc/initramfs-tools/hooks/ directory after running debootstrap, i'm just not sure what to put in there
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17:07<plaur>i'm not what benefit this brings in practice. if someone with physical access could replace your kernel with an evil one on an unencrypted boot partition, they could do the same with grub
17:07<Ganneff>grub can boot a fully encrypted /boot. gets annoying, but works.
17:07<Ganneff>see for a recent howto.
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17:10<sych1ll>reply plaur it's not fool proof but in does shrink the attack surface. It's a step closer to boot chain security, which could be something like storing the boot loader on a removable device
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17:13<plaur>you can store the entire boot partition on a removable device, i remember this was done many years ago, before grub supported luks
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17:15<sych1ll>i'm not interested in dealing with external media yet.. that will just be a later step in the evolution, which could even be on a smartcard (which i think would be large enough for a boot loader but not a /boot partition)
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17:21<sych1ll>Ganneff: thanks for the link. no mention of initramfs hooks, but perhaps debian doesn't need them
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17:33<thurstylark>what's the best way to install Alacritty's terminfo on debian 10?
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17:38<eu>thurstylark: download the source and `tic -xe alacritty,alacritty-direct extra/`. Or you can get passable results with using `TERM=xterm-256color ssh`. Or you can use tmux which has it's own terminfo.
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17:39<thurstylark>eu: alrighty, I'll give the source method a go. Thanks :)
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17:45<thurstylark>neato, now I can backspace properly \o/
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18:06<somiaj>Trying to figure out an effictive way to disable a d-bus service, mostly because I don't need ibus running when I startx but can't figure out how to disable it effictvely
18:07<grawity>d-bus services don't start automatically like that
18:07<somiaj>when I run 'startx' something triggers it and it starts autoatically
18:08<somiaj>I'm using fvwm and nothign I am doing is asking for it, once I load fvwm, I can 'quit' it and all the process it spawns goes away
18:08<grawity>either they're started externally, like via /etc/xdg/autostart, or when something tries to contact them
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18:08<grawity>is the service a child of dbus-daemon?
18:09<somiaj>Yea, that is basically what my research has told me
18:09<somiaj>umm I quite it, one second, I'll double check
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18:11<peace>Should booting linux recognize a USB flash drive as a device without an entry for it in /etc/fstab?
18:11<somiaj> -- that is what is running after I run startx. I have a very simple .xsession, 'exec /usr/bin/xrdb -load $HOME/.Xdefaults; exec /usr/bin/fvwm', fvwm doesn't really support any of xdg autostart so that isn't it, and I am not starting anything except some fvwm modules and stalonetray in my fvwmrc
18:12<somiaj>peace: most desktops have tools that monintor/manage/mount filesystems automatically, gnome has gvfs for instance
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18:12<somiaj>peace: I personally turn all that stuff off, but it is there in most de's
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18:13<somiaj>(wish I could just uninstall ibus, but zoom...:/)
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18:17<somiaj>Yea, zoom is the only package I have that depends on ibus and isn't running, yet something is still triggering it to run when I run 'startx' (being a keyboard thing I could see dbus trigering it when xorg is started, be nice to just disable that though...)
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18:18<olasd>somiaj: iirc ibus hooks in /etc/Xsession.d or somesuch
18:19<somiaj> -- nothing refering to ibus there, but good call
18:20<somiaj>grep -i ibus /etc/X11/Xsession.d/* returns nothing
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18:21<grawity>somiaj: that definitely doesn't look like it's a child of "dbus-daemon x
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18:21<grawity>(though you omitted the parent from your pastebin), but especially not with the --daemonize; dbus-activated services don't daemonize
18:22<somiaj>grawity: yea, agreed, how would I tell what the parent is, the ps fax tree isn't showing it
18:22<somiaj>/lib/systemd/systemd --user \_ /usr/bin/dbus-daemon --session --address=systemd: --nofork --nopidfile --systemd-activation --syslog-only there is the dbus-daemon
18:23<grawity>basically grep -r -- "--daemonize" /etc /usr
18:24<somiaj>only thing relevant, /usr/share/im-config/data/21_ibus.rc:IBUS_ENABLE_SYNC_MODE=0 /usr/bin/ibus-daemon --daemonize --xim
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18:25<somiaj>only other hits were pullsaudio
18:25<somiaj>arg pulseaudio
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18:30<somiaj>well thanks for your thoughts, back to google...maybe I can 'mask' it somehow, not the best solution but could work.
18:30<somiaj>just ln something to /dev/null
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18:49<HDMIonperil>Someone can help me diagnose a problem with HDMI Output?
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18:54<somiaj>What is the problem? You aren't able to see anything?
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18:56<HDMIonperil>I have no problem Displaying anything
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18:56<HDMIonperil>The problems is sound output through NVidia card
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18:56<somiaj>what desktop are you using?
18:57<HDMIonperil>Gnome on buster
18:57<somiaj>You should be able to control the sound output device though gnome tools
18:57<somiaj>you can also install pavucontrol, and make sure y ou have the output sink set to the right sound card
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18:57<HDMIonperil>no sound with al the options
18:57<somiaj>are you using the closed source nvidia driver or nouveau?
18:58<HDMIonperil>basically i have no sound output only on the HDMI
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18:58<omegatron>is there an open source nvidia driver !?
18:58<somiaj>and you see the HDMI as one of the options as sound cards you can select?
18:58<HDMIonperil>On Win10 HDMI works perfectly so its not a hardware problem
18:58<somiaj>omegatron: nouveau is open (but sometimes works better with some closed source firmware)
18:59<somiaj>omegatron: though it is hit or miss how good it is, decent for older cards and 2d graphics, though not the best for 3d espically on newer cards
18:59<somiaj>HDMIonperil: you you use the closed source nvidia driver or nouveau?
18:59<omegatron>no, i wanted to point out, that there is no open source driver by nvidia .. therefore it's superfluous to mark it as "closed source"
18:59<HDMIonperil>HDMI seems to be working on software even on nouveau. I Tried on both drivers
18:59<somiaj>I just like reminding people it is non-free
19:00<omegatron>what for?
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19:00<somiaj>HDMIonperil: hmm, not sure what the issue is, I'm currently listening to sound on my nvidia card with the non-free driver, though I'm using a display port not hdmi, but that shoudln't matter
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19:01<HDMIonperil>I will explain better. I was using the onboard sound card when I noticed Y can change outputs. Tried HDMI but no sound came from there.
19:01<bremner>so, speedtest-cli is broken in stable. What's a good substitute? I saw netperf in nonfree. What else?
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19:02<somiaj>bremner: there is nettraf-ng or a monintor such that, then download a big file, check speed? though might not be as automated as an actual speedtest tool
19:03<HDMIonperil>aplay seem to play correctly but still hear anything on that HDMI output
19:03<tomreyn>there's iperf and a few public test servers
19:03<somiaj>HDMIonperil: everything sounds reasonable, not sure what the problem could be, double check it isn't muted, double check the pusleaudio options, etc
19:03<bremner>somiaj: yeah, was hoping for something quick, but OK. I already have iftop running, so maybe just a big transfer
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19:03<tomreyn>bremner: you could also get a newer speedtest-cli via pip
19:04<somiaj>bremner: also some isps are evil and give better service to speed tests servers, so that can often be a better benchmark
19:04<somiaj>or there is a speed test server network, and you get one in their network which is inheritanlly faster than actual use
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19:06<HDMIonperil>Can someone guide to dignose the problem with sound through HDMi on NVdia card? I just want to know what could be the cause of silence. seems to be a path problem since its incorrectly assigned
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19:12<somiaj>HDMIonperil: you can keep your questions in the channel please. Anyways I don't know what it could be, you ahve gone through everything that I could think of
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19:14<HDMIonperil>ok. I asked for guide how to check from the most elemental part if its an ALSA problem or if is a Pulseaudio conflict. since I tried Simultaneous playback too
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19:15<HDMIonperil>Anyone knows if I could check somenthing apart from misconfig on Pulseaudio?
19:15<sney>to eliminate pulseaudio as a problem, disable pulseaudio temporarily
19:16<HDMIonperil>already done the pulseaudio thing
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19:25<bremner>tomreyn: thanks for those suggestions also. ATM trying ssh dd between different hosts.
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20:12<somiaj>Is there an alternative to $ for end of string in sed, --program-transform-name= in automake is turning $ into $$ making $ not work.
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20:20<wyatt8750>just a thought, and I haven't tested this at all, but did '\$' do anything for you?
20:20<wyatt8750>sorry, "\$"
20:21<wyatt8750>also no, i don't think there is
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20:21<wyatt8750>that's a regex thing
20:23<somiaj>"\$" became "\\$$", "$$" became "$$$$", I even tried "\$\$" it became "\\$$\\$$", so there is some preprocessor escaping things in automake
20:23<somiaj>The crux of the issue is I ahve a line in transform=`echo "${program_transform_name}" | "$SED" -e 's/\\$\\$/\\$/'` that is supose to turn $$ back into $ for me, and it works except
20:24<somiaj>when automake turns that line into the Makefile, it runs the line in `echo ...` so instead of copying that line into the make file, it copies the line transform=${program_transform_name}, and the sed line is gone
20:25<somiaj>so maybe if I could figure out how to get automate to copy the full line into the makefiles and not execute it
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20:30<sych1ll>$$ has a special meaning in sed: match the last line of the input
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20:34<sych1ll>i see this line in a Makefile => echo 'const char *GitVer = "'$$version'";' > git_ver.h.tmp;
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20:34<sych1ll>that implies that make escapes a $ with another $, not a backslash
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20:38<mentor>somiaj: Provide the sed script via process substitution or an actual file?
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20:39<sych1ll>"$SED" -e 's/\\$\\$/\\$/' is likely not what you want. the single quotes already protect from one level of interpretation. you probably want -e 's/\$\$/$/'
20:40<sych1ll>note that "$" in the 2nd arg to sed's "s" command is not a regex, so dollar signs are taken literally there
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20:44<somiaj>sych1ll: no, the script is correct, due to the `, you can test it, TEST=`echo '$$' | sed -e 's/\\$\\$/\\$/'`; echo $TEST
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20:45<somiaj>mentor: is the automate configure file, it then uses that to generate Makefiles, the issue is that automakes --program-transform-name turns $ into $$, and that variable is supose to undo it
20:46<somiaj>mentor: the problem is doesn't copy the line into the Makefile, the line that gets into the make file is transform=${program_transform_name}, so in essence the sed script is not run at the correct timining int he build process
20:46<somiaj>anyways this is a very strange side case I am trying to work with, and I don't know enough about automake to fix it.
20:47<mentor>somiaj: Yeah, I was trying to suggest keeping the sed script outside of auto* to get around the issue.
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20:47<sych1ll>somiaj: you want to turn $$ into $$? that makes no sense.. it's the same as what you started with. But if that's what you want, you can simplify to => echo '$$' | sed -e 's/\$\$/&/'
20:48<somiaj>mentor: ahh yea, problem is I need it in multiple laces.
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20:48<mentor>somiaj: In which case a common script file is an improvement!
20:48<somiaj>sych1ll: I want to turn $$ into $, which the command I pasted correctly does, the issue isn't that, the issue is automake is escaping my $ and turning into $$, (anyways thisis also someone elses code, I'm just tryin to debug it)
20:49<somiaj>I think the main issue is automake also has --program-prefix=PREFIX, which would prefix things, problem is I only want to prefix some of the files the source builds, and I can do that with --program-transform-name= if it didnt' double my $ (or I could find another end line character)
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20:50<sych1ll>this is simpler if you want $$ => $. try TEST=`echo '$$' | sed -e 's/[$][$]/$/'`; echo "$TEST"
20:50<somiaj>mentor: well thanks, I wonder if there is some AC_COPY_EXACTLY(....) I could use, need to learn automake
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20:50<somiaj>sych1ll: it might be, but that won't get around my issue
20:52<sych1ll>what's the line in the makefile look like?
20:52<wyatt8750>somiaj: might be a use for eval?
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20:53<somiaj>sych1ll: transform=${program_transform_name}
20:53<somiaj>wyatt8750: hmm, good thought
20:54<somiaj>well actually I think I want the opposite eval, I want 'don't run this'
20:54<wyatt8750>well, make the automake include an eval that constructs it
20:55<wyatt8750>at run-time
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20:55<somiaj>I might have to dig deep into the automake docs, though I can try, lets see
20:56<sych1ll>transform=${program_transform_name} <= that should work. I wonder if the program_transform_name variable is getting defined as something that starts with a literal $, giving the impression that the $ is doubling
20:56<wyatt8750>try just entering the octal code for '$'
20:56<wyatt8750>i think that's \044
20:57<somiaj>sych1ll: no, the problem is due to preporcessing the program_transform_name has doubled all my $, I need to undo that, what I want in the make file is transform=`echo "${program_transform_name}" | "$SED" -e 's/\\$\\$/\\$/'`
20:57<somiaj>but that gets processed to soon, isntead of copied, so I need to figure out how to tell automake not to do that
20:57<wyatt8750>printf "%b\n" '\044'
20:58<wyatt8750>that worked in dash and bosh (schily's bourne shell)
20:58<wyatt8750>and bash
20:58<somiaj>oh well back to the docs, I'll try to figure something out
20:58<wyatt8750>printf "%b\n" '\044'
20:58<wyatt8750>should yield a $ sign
20:58<wyatt8750>so put that in bac kticks
20:58<wyatt8750>or an eval
21:01<wyatt8750>somiaj: looks like this file has a comment about your problem
21:01<wyatt8750>'Use a double $ so make ignores it.'
21:01<wyatt8750>program_transform_name="s,\$\$,${program_suffix},; $program_transform_name"
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21:02<sych1ll>dollar braces "${var}" is valid but atypical way to refer to a variable in make. I wonder if automake would do the right thing if you switched to dollar parenthesis: $(var)
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21:07<somiaj>wyatt8750: --program-transform-name="s/$$/x/" gets interputted as program_transform_name="s/$$$$/x/"
21:07<somiaj>though I think I thought of a solution s/(.*)/\13/ -- that should jsut glob the whole expression right?
21:08<wyatt8750>mmm, that might do it
21:08<wyatt8750>also did you try the octal thing?
21:08<somiaj>hmm, no not globing, I forget how sed globs...
21:09<somiaj>this code is 15-20 years old, wonder if it just enver worked or automake changed
21:09<somiaj>note my use case is a very edge case, outside of the issue with a $, everything works fine
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21:19<sappheiros>is there a way to tell in synaptic which installed packages are not part of debian10's default?
21:20<abrotman>how did you install them?
21:20<sappheiros>through synaptic and some apt-get
21:21<sappheiros>also, do all apt/apt-get installed packages also show up in synaptic?
21:21<sappheiros>i'm thinking the answer is yes
21:21<sappheiros>that synaptic is just a GUI for apt
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21:23<somiaj>aptitude search '?narrow(?installed,?not(?origin(debian)))' will show you installed packages that are not from the debian repo
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22:55<peace>Why would the "dmesg" command say a USB device was recognized when it's a.) unplugged from a USB port and then b.) re-plugged back in
22:56<peace>not automatically recognized when the USB device is already plugged in and the computer is rebooted?
22:56<peace>A pastebin of relevant dmesg output is at
22:58<peace>Both ways seem to me to work initially, but the dmesg output from rebooting 1.) refers to usbcore instead of sd and 2.) subsequently fails with "Unaligned partial completion".
22:58<peace>Sqrt{not} ^
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23:03<somiaj>sounds like it at the hardware/firmware level of your main board, is your firmware completely up to date? There aren't any options that disable usb devices at boot?
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23:06<peace>somiaj, Thanks. I seem to recall seeing something like a BIOS option for USB security was enabled. Maybe I should try disabling it and rebooting.
23:09<somiaj>also if you run lsusb (before you uplug/plug) do you see any info about the device (and didn't we suggest you do this before)
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23:30<peace>somiaj, Yes, I ran lsusb before unplug and replugging the USB device. It didn't see the USB device either.
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23:32<somiaj>so yea, your hardware is not reporting the devices until a plug event happens, not sure why, but to me it sounds like hardware issue
23:35<peace>somiaj, Why would dmesg report the USB device without a plug event, if the hardware was silent?
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23:38<somiaj>Does it reporte the device or the hub?
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23:40<somiaj>oh looks like i/o errors, hmm, still sounds like hardware, though unsure why you don't have those i/o errors after arreplug
23:41<somiaj>but hea like 49,50, there are some i/o errors causing the machine to think the device is dead and ejecting it
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23:42<peace>somiaj, Both ways seem to me to work initially, but the dmesg output from rebooting 1.) refers to usbcore instead of sd and 2.) subsequently fails with "Unaligned partial completion".
23:43<somiaj>that is nothing, during boot a lot of things are kinda happening in parallel
23:43<somiaj>if you take out those two usbcore lines, you basically have identical info until the i/o errors
23:43<somiaj>it is just the first time usb-storage is used, usb-core has to register its interface driver
23:44<somiaj>I have a lot of similar reports in my machine for all the usb devices that get detected at boot
23:44<somiaj>the problem isn't that the device isn't getting detected (as it seems we miss thought), it is that the device is having i/o errors and the kernel is disconnecting it because of that
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23:45<somiaj>are you trying to automatically mount this partition sdb1 by its uuid at boot?
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23:48<peace>somiaj, Thanks for your thoughts. In addition to the fewer usbcore lines, dmesg output from un and replugging the USB device in says
23:48<peace>sd 9:0:0:0: Attached scsi generic sg2 type 0
23:50<peace>I agree the kernel seems to briefly recognize the USB device, but then dmesg says "Unaligned partial completion" and "USB disconnect".
23:50<peace>I am not trying to automatically mount this partition sdb1 by its uuid at boot, but maybe the computer is.
23:50<somiaj>again do you have this device setup to automount in /etc/fstab?
23:52<somiaj>usb support in my experience is fairly solid in the linux kernel (this is 4.19 or 5.10?), so I would make sure you backup that drive and I side on some hardware issue
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23:56<peace>somiaj, I just checked /etc/fstab. I didn't see the USB device or its file system type, with or without automount.
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23:57<somiaj>yea, I'm unsure why the device is having those errors only at boot, but I would be worried about that device.
23:57<somiaj>What type of drive is this?
23:59<peace>The version of the Linux kernel is 4.19.67-2.
23:59<somiaj>ahh so buster, yea fairly solid kernel, I would wadger it is hardware over kernel
---Logclosed Thu May 27 00:00:02 2021