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#debian IRC Logs for 2021-06-13

---Logopened Sun Jun 13 00:00:26 2021
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00:48<malw>Good evening, I am wondering what steps I have to take to get a Debian package in upstream repos? Any help appreciated. - Sent from my pi4
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00:52<quadrat>Best would be to talk to people in #debian-mentors
00:52<malw>Thanks, I will take my business there. I bid you adue
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01:46<cheako>Anyone use NetworklManager on a server? I'm having trouble with detecting interfaces and creating others. https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/P0ei9xG2/ Is connection.interface_name or whatever responsible for both?
01:47<cheako>Specifically, lan0, lan1 and wan should all be part of bond0... Though identically configured lan0 doesn't seem to understand this.
01:48<cheako>Likewise, the 3 vlan's get created... then never configuired.
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02:09<radhitya>Hi guys. I have problem with my Debian. is intel hd 4600 have va-api support in Debian? #sorryforbadenglish
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02:14<jmcnaught>radhitya: yes, I think you want the i965-va-driver and maybe the i965-va-driver-shaders package from non-free. https://wiki.debian.org/HardwareVideoAcceleration has more details.
02:15<radhitya>i already downloaded that package (i965-va-driver), but still not working.. must i use non free?
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02:17<jmcnaught>radhitya: what application did you try?
02:17<radhitya>jmcnaught: intel_gpu_top
02:19<radhitya>still not working, i downloaded i965-va-driver-shaders.. must i restart it?
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02:21<jmcnaught>radhitya: what application did you try playing video in?
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02:23<radhitya>mpv
02:23<radhitya>already tried with --vo=xv, --vo=vaapi, and --vo=gpu
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02:25<jmcnaught>radhitya: mpv --hwdec
02:25<radhitya>thank you, its work --hwdec=vaapi
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02:27<radhitya>so, how to get vaapi work on firefox? which flag? which flags must i change to true? (i already switch to true based on https://digitaloceancode.com/how-to-enable-vaapi-in-firefox-arch-linux/)
02:28-!-mode/#debian [+l 949] by debhelper
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02:32<jmcnaught>radhitya: I do not know but you can search in about:config for vaapi, I do not get much there but I am forcing firefox-esr to run in Wayland which could be related here.
02:34<radhitya>ok jmcnaught, thanks for respond my question.. (y)
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03:40<RoyK>any idea how to make davfs2 perform ok? I'm on a 500Mbps link and I'm rsyncing to a friend connected to the same ISP and IIRC he, too, has a 500Mbps link. Still, I get around 100kBps, which isn't really a lot
03:43<ratrace>though that number seems unnaturally low, davfs ain't known for performance. why are you using that and not something saner like nfs or smb. hell, even sshfs should perform acceptably-ish.
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03:45<RoyK>not my choice - I guess I'll talk more to my friend about it and check how it looks from his side
03:45<ratrace>one more thing to check is rsync. are there many tiny files, are you doing delta transfers. rsync can be very chatty which incurrs some overhead in DAV
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03:55<notsure>how can I update grub config?
03:55<notsure>I want to regenerate it
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03:57<notsure>oh wait I See
03:57<sussudio>update-grub
03:57<jim>did freenode kill off #debian?
03:57<notsure>some files are not visiable for normal uses
03:58<sussudio>no, freenode #debian is still there, just dead.
03:59<jim>also... I have a log file whose name starts with ##, having trouble accessing it (or mentioning it by name)
03:59<sussudio>/etc/default/grub is the only one you should be touching
03:59<notsure>it's not even visible for root only via sudo?
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04:00<notsure>sussudio: yeah yeah I get it, I have a bit of experience, but I tried to run the command via root user, didn't know it's only done via sudo
04:01<jim>notsure, he's saying the other grub config files are generated based on settings in /etc/default/grub
04:02<notsure>yeah I get it
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04:06<notsure>permissions are so weird for a simple arch user
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04:07<jelly27>/ǃ\ TΗIЅ ϹΗАNΝEᏞ ᕼAS ΜOᏙΕD ТO IᎡⅭ.ⅬIBEᏒΑ.CHΑT ﹟HAMRАDΙⲞ /ⵑ⧹
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04:08<tpo2>I regularily get an email from cron telling me "'invoke-rc.d rsyslog rotate' called during shutdown sequence." on two of my lxc VMs. The mail is sent at 6:00. Logrotate gets triggered by /etc/cron.daily/logrotate. cron.daily runs at `grep daily /etc/crontab` -> 6:25. So how could that mail possibly be sent at 6:00? (the system's time is correct).
04:09<tpo2>I am perplexed. Any helpful idea on how to resolve the knot in my brain welcome.
04:10<sussudio>maybe cron achieved a velocity of 88mph.
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04:13<awal1>well, not sure how to open stuff like gparted now since the changes made for permissions
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04:14<tpo2>sussudio, I'd even argue that cron broke the velocity of light and managed to run its job backwards in time. A first. Maybe I should contact my local nobel price recipient for further inquiry.
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04:15<tpo2>awal1, it's not clear to me what you are asking
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04:18<tpo2>OK, so it seems that unattended-upgrades will reboot the system at 6:00. However the question is, why would the logrotate cron job get executed just shortly after that?
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04:19<awal1>tpo2, well, before i just click on my menu entry of gparted and it opens after asking for root passwd (i guess gksu is called) . now gksu is dead i think(?) and pkg like gparted needing admin pass won't open
04:19<awal1>i no remember what is the replacement of gksu
04:20<tpo2>awal1, you open a terminal, change to the root user and start gparted from there?
04:21<awal1>tpo2, already did, won't start
04:21<awal1>acess denied even if i run xhost +
04:21<vv221>I think for GParted policykit is used.
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04:21<awal1>policikit stuff yeah
04:21<awal1>but no much clue about that :D and how to run stuff now
04:22<awal1>ah, pkexec. lets try
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04:23<awal1># LANG=C pkexec gparted
04:23<awal1>Unable to init server: No se pudo conectar: Conexión rehusada
04:23<awal1>(gpartedbin:7349): Gtk-WARNING **: 04:23:42.672: cannot open display:
04:24<vv221>If you use pkexec, run it with your unprivileged user, not root ;)
04:24<vv221>But I see there is a shell wrapper /usr/sbin/gparted, does it not work for you?
04:25<awal1>pkexec gparted
04:25<awal1>Cannot run program gparted: No such file or directory
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04:26<awal1>no
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04:27<vv221>This is not going to be in your path as an unpriviliged user.
04:27<vv221>What I was suggesting to run is: /usr/sbin/gparted
04:28<vv221>Without pkexec or anything else.
04:28<vv221>What it does is, to make it short:
04:28<vv221>xhost +SI:localuser:root
04:28<vv221>pkexec --disable-internal-agent '/usr/sbin/gparted' "$@"
04:28<vv221>xhost -SI:localuser:root
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04:30<vv221>The pkexec is to rerun itself (itself = the wrapper script) with root privileges.
04:30<vv221>Then it set up some disk-related things.
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04:30<vv221>And in the end it runs the real GParted binary, that is /usr/sbin/gpartedbin
04:31<vv221>So the very short version might be:
04:31<vv221>xhost +SI:localuser:root
04:31<vv221>su -c /usr/sbin/gpartedbin
04:31<vv221>xhost -SI:localuser:root
04:31<vv221>The xhost part is what will work around the "cannot open display" issues.
04:32<awal1>https://paste.debian.net/plain/1201050
04:33<awal1>vv221, well, let me try to understand what i'm/will do with all you suggested and will let you know if solved
04:34<awal1>vv221, i think i'll just use the gparted dvd thing . less headache. but thanks for your time. it is 4:34 am here. i will be back later with my topic :) thanks :)
04:38<awal1>vv221, see you. thanks for your time&attention (Y)
04:40<vv221>No problem ;)
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04:56<ratrace>I don't get this. CVE-2021-3560 is supposedly 7 years old, and introduced in polkit v.0.113. Buster ships with 0.105 and teh tracker says the vulnerable features were backported with .105-26 . How friggin old is polkit in debian then if it refers to .105 and .113 is 7 years old?!
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04:57<ratrace>,v policykit-1
04:57<judd>Package: policykit-1 on amd64 -- jessie: 0.105-15~deb8u2; jessie-security: 0.105-15~deb8u4; stretch: 0.105-18+deb9u1; stretch-security: 0.105-18+deb9u1; buster: 0.105-25; bullseye: 0.105-31; sid: 0.105-31; experimental: 0.119-1
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04:58<ratrace>wth, I know Debian is called Stale-bian but this takes the cake. surely there must be a good reason...
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05:04<ratrace>can't find in the mailing lists why v.105 is being held on through so many debian releases
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06:08<at0m>,v polkit
06:08<judd>No package named 'polkit' was found in amd64.
06:08<at0m>oh. /me pours coffee
06:09<vv221>,v policykit-1
06:09<judd>Package: policykit-1 on amd64 -- jessie: 0.105-15~deb8u2; jessie-security: 0.105-15~deb8u4; stretch: 0.105-18+deb9u1; stretch-security: 0.105-18+deb9u1; buster: 0.105-25; bullseye: 0.105-31; sid: 0.105-31; experimental: 0.119-1
06:09<vv221>;)
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06:09<grawity>ratrace: well, that's the last version to use pkla configuration instead of depending on a JavaScript interpreter (namely mozjs/SpiderMonkey), I'm only not sure whether that's the reason in itself, or whether there were packaging concerns for mozjs specifically
06:09<at0m>vv221: yea was too late to read ratrace's backlog couple lines up
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06:10<vv221>To be fair, I missed it too…
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06:37<EmleyMoor>0 p/l on my wireless adaptor. Suspect a themal issue... Still want to get Indigo working, though
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06:38<ratrace>grawity: but js has already been part of polkit in debian for years
06:40<grawity>uhhhhh [citation needed]
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06:42<ratrace>grawity: nvm, I guess I'm confusing distros.... rhel has it. and js rules.d are shipped in debian, but I suppose they're not used...
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06:44<grawity>my understanding is that even the 0.119 in experimental is aiming to just patch out the JS backend and import the legacy pkla backend instead
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06:48<ratrace>that sounds terribly...... illconcieved. got a mailing list link or another resource about all that? google is failing me today....
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06:57<ratrace>grawity: actually, found something. but seems like it's the opposite, JS will be the future: https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2016/04/msg00398.html
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07:00<colo>the world is crazy, and getting ever crazier
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07:02<grawity>ratrace: hmm can't see where you're reading that it'll be the future in debian
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07:04<ratrace>from the maintainer of policykit-1 linke in the post
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07:05<grawity>who says "I'm not a huge fan of the new, JS-based format, fwiw. Which is the main reason policykit-1 (>= 0.106) is not in Debian unstable"
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07:06<ratrace>yes, AND that present pkla rules won't work out of the box. that was said in 2016, but I can't find anything newer to confirm or refute that
07:08<koollman>on the plus side, debian using an old version means debian buster was not hit by a stupid local root exploit https://github.blog/2021-06-10-privilege-escalation-polkit-root-on-linux-with-bug/ :)
07:08<ratrace>koollman: it actually WAS, as debian backported all that code
07:09<ratrace>!cve lookup CVE-2021-3560
07:09<dpkg>Information about the security advisory CVE-2021-3560 may be found at https://security-tracker.debian.org/tracker/CVE-2021-3560
07:09<koollman>ratrace: hm. Ok, that article was misleading, then
07:09<ratrace>see that's the thing. debian is backporting around "herp derp bawww no js!" since 2012 and that's just plain stupid.
07:10<koollman>https://security-tracker.debian.org/tracker/CVE-2021-3560 but in front of the source package for buster it says '(not affected)'
07:10<ratrace>koollman: read the notes
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07:11<koollman>yes. "Debian backported 0.113 commits in 0.105-26", "[buster] - policykit-1 <not-affected> (Vulnerable code introduced later)". because buster uses 0.105-25
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07:12<ratrace>koollman: yes but the point is, that vulnerable code was still backported, so "no js" ain't an argument here at all.
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07:13<koollman>that's not my argument. just the 'using old version' part. using js is a whole other debate I probably don't want to touch. It seems bad to use executable code as configuration, but I assume there are cases where it would help gain finer control. But then ... is js the thing you want to use for it ? maybe a very restricted version, with stricter rules
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07:14<ratrace>it's just an interpreter. how much of that API is actually implemented by polkit, is a different story.
07:15<ratrace>as an example, one question can be if that implementation is deep enough to allow, say, execing random system binaries. but if that's required by the implementation, then JS being the interpreter and language here makes no difference.
07:16<ratrace>especially since the rules used are defined by root, so any security boundaries are dissolved by that fact alone.
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07:23<koollman>ratrace: not directly impacting security,but maybe causing more misunderstanding or having strange edge cases. So that when root (or maintainers) review some configuration they might believe it does something, while it's doing something else
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07:23<ratrace>same would apply to an INI-syntax config that uses weird and convoluted semantics within very limited key-value paradigm, to work around, say, conditionals.
07:24<koollman>sure. Like one of my preferred 'not a bug' argument on systemd. Where mispelling a user name in a unit file would make the service run as root. And, sure, that's root fault for not checking carefully ... but maybe the tooling did contribute a bit
07:24<ratrace>js is not really "executable". it's just a syntax. the "executability" of it can be achieved by any syntax, as long as the host program supplies teh APIs
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07:24<koollman>I'm not sure js would be my choice of something easy to understand in non-ambiguous way
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07:26<ratrace>from what I've worked with polkit rules on RHEL, I find JS far less ambiguous than the convolute INI
07:27<ratrace>the biggest issue really is XML in all that :)
07:27<koollman>xml is a pretty good example of an awful configuration syntax to use indeed :)
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07:29<Guest1969>test
07:29<koollman>Guest1969: success! maybe. At least you're speaking on irc
07:30<koollman>ratrace: I could say there's one obvious language to use for configuration and extension purpose ... but I don't think guile is that much easier to read. nicer to parse, though it takes some time for the brain to get used to it ;)
07:33<vv221>I’m still not able to edit my only guile-based config file (xbindkeys) without copy-pasting existing lines ;P
07:33<koollman>you just have to rewire your brain to understand lisp. Easy
07:33<jhutchins>vv221: What editor are you trying to use?
07:34<ratrace>(lisp ? just (Say no))
07:35<koollman>no, no, that would be more like (? lisp (say no))
07:35<ratrace>:)
07:35<koollman>operator then operands, unless using special-forms or macros
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07:42<vv221>jhutchins, this is not an issue with the editor (vim), but with my brain that does not manage to make sense of guile syntax ;)
07:44<vv221>Well, it *might* be an editor issue actually. Had I chosen emacs instead of vim, I would have been fluent in parenthesis-based languages by now.
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07:45<jhutchins>vv221: Understood, I have been struggling with the syntax for irssi's config lately. It isn't documented anywhere.
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07:46<koollman>well, the source code is available ;)
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07:55<jhutchins>koollman: The problem is that irssi was originally based on an edited text file configuration, but it evolved in-system commands to modify the config, and the syntax for the file was never documented. Figuring out what commands have precedence is very difficult, even for the people who work on the code.
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07:56<jhutchins>My config file is based on the original text version, but has some modifications from the in-system commands.
07:56<jhutchins>I have to manually reconfigure it every time I re-start it.
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08:27<apteryx>hello! Where could I learn all the low level details of the .deb archive format? I'm interested in adding .deb as a supported format for 'guix pack', which currently supports 'tarball', 'squashfs' or 'docker'.
08:28<grawity>https://manpages.debian.org/deb(5) might be a good start
08:28<tremon>man 5 deb, for starters
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08:32<tremon>but rather than generating the file from the spec, you could also depend on dpkg-deb as build tool and invoke it to produce the archive
08:35<tia3100>Where could I find full apt documentation?
08:36<tia3100>Or somethign that is way more detailed then man pages
08:37<apteryx>I'm guessing its sources :-).
08:37<apteryx>tremon: thank you.
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08:39<tremon>tia3100: install apt-doc, I guess, or browse it online: https://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/apt-guide/index.en.html
08:39<tremon>not sure how extensive that document is
08:40<tremon>there's also https://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/apt-howto/ but that one is marked obsolete
08:41<tia3100>I was searching where is rdepends option mentioned in apt documentation, but found only 1 remark to it. So I hoped there woudl be full list of its abilities
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08:42<tia3100>Lookin in source it does list included tools so at least there is that
08:43<tremon>not sure what you mean by "its abilities", it's mentioned in apt-cache(8) but there's indeed only one line about it
08:44<tia3100>By abilities I ment options that could be run with apt, such as apt rdepends
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08:45<tremon>fafaik rdepends doesn't take any additional options, just the package name(s)
08:47<tia3100>Well I know that, but it not just about rdepends, rather about all other options that could be run with apt
08:48-!-mode/#debian [+l 962] by debhelper
08:48<tia3100>For example apt-get has dist-upgrade, and under apt it is mentioned full-upgrade with comment about (apt-get 8)
08:48<tia3100>My problem is that some of options included from tools in apt don't have corresponding options for those tools, such as full-upgrade for apt-get
08:49<tremon>tbh I don't use apt myself, I'm still using apt-cache and apt-get directly
08:50<tia3100>I find apt cute, but have trobule finding better documentation for its options
08:50<tremon>so I've never to explore the apt command
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09:10<unkmar>I have a laptop with a builtin cam. DPMS off doesn't stick. Backlight and screen come back on within seconds.
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09:12<unkmar>Any ideas what keeps my laptop screen awake?
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09:19<kiwichap>hello
09:19<unkmar>Hi there kiwichap
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09:19<kiwichap>hi unkmar how are you?
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09:20<tia3100>kiwichap, as from new zealand?
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09:20<kiwichap>no tia3100 it's a random name I thought was cool not sure why
09:20<tia3100>Oh, it does sound nice
09:20<unkmar>Good, just struggling with dpms issues. Screen won't stay blanked. Can't physically turn it off, because it is a laptop.
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09:21<kiwichap>what is dpm ?
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09:22<unkmar>Display Power Management Signaling.
09:22<grawity>tbh doesn't sound like camera-related, more likely some ghost input from touchpad or something
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09:33<unkmar>Yeah, well. I can disable the touchpad and REMOVE the mouse and it will stake wake up.
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09:37<unkmar>None of those. Not keyboard either. xprintidle time keeps increasing.
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09:40<kiwichap>I'm not sure what to say
09:40<kiwichap>maybe try opensuse?
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09:40<kiwichap>I just tried something in debian from another os and then there are a lot more complications so it doesn't seem to help
09:41<kiwichap>just throw the computer in the garbage
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09:44<kiwichap>sorry unkmar
09:44<kiwichap>how can I help?
09:45<tia3100>you can try to disable acpi wakeups
09:45<tia3100>I had trouble with wakeups, where if I would turn on lamp in my room my lap would turn on as well
09:46<tia3100>Figured out it was power related, where form some reason usb would send wakeup calls
09:47<tia3100>You can check status of what would wakeup your device in /proc/acpi/wakeup
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09:54<kiwichap>how complicated will it be to install inn2?
09:54<kiwichap>like I have to get sendmail to work now
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09:59<kiwichap>ok question how do I find the /etc/rc.d startup files directory?
10:00<unkmar>That is funny.
10:00<grawity>debian doesn't have that one. maybe try opensuse?
10:01<unkmar>debian has /etc/rc0.d rc1.d rc2.d Up to 6 and also rcS.d
10:02<unkmar>I assume the numbers are run levels.
10:02<grawity>a closer equivalent of rc.d in other systems would be /etc/init.d, but that's now superseded by /{etc,lib}/systemd/system
10:03<unkmar>And what is with this push for opensuse? Feels like an inside joke.
10:04<ratrace>maybe devuan then, to stay in the debland :)
10:04<unkmar>The one and only time I tried SUSE, It seemed you needed to sacrifice virgins to appease the gods just to get a printer to work.
10:04<unkmar>Granted, that was about 15 years ago.
10:05<tia3100>I have heard that about debian
10:05<ratrace>and 30 years ago you needed a time machine just to install opensuse!
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10:07<kiwichap>thanks
10:07<kiwichap>it's not easy this I guess
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10:08<ratrace>kiwichap: something tells me you're not using apt to install inn2?
10:08<kiwichap>it's installed except I don't know how to run it
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10:08<kiwichap>then I am also worried that I need to install sendmail
10:08<ratrace>also... why do you think you need inn2 to run sendmail? and when you say sendmail, do you actually mean The Sendmail MTA? and not /sbin/sendmail ?
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10:10<kiwichap>the opposite I thought I needed the mta to run news
10:11<ratrace>sorry I misunderstood your question. did you install inn2 with apt?
10:11<kiwichap>yes
10:12<ratrace>because it pulls in exim, so you do have it all set up per required dependencies
10:12<ratrace>I suppose you can replace exim with sendmail if you wish so
10:12<kiwichap>I don't know if it is necessary or not
10:13<kiwichap>I'm ok with sendmail I just don't necessarily want to do it today
10:13<kiwichap>it was a big job and I still don't have my email working
10:14<kiwichap>it works but the spam filter is picking it up on the sendmail server and it was super difficult for me
10:14<ratrace>well sendmail is super difficult unless you already have a ton of experience with it and can talk m4 in your sleep
10:15<kiwichap>it needs the dkim, it also needs the dna records to record the dns records it sends from , dmarc, spf sender policy framework, etc..
10:15<ratrace>simpler alternatives are exim and even better postfix.
10:16<kiwichap>I use postfix for my functional mail now but my webserver is configured with sendmail so automated emails like emailing someone a receipt or if they forgot a password on a forum will probably get rejected
10:17<ratrace> /sbin/sendmail or Sendmail ?
10:18<kiwichap>sendmail
10:18<kiwichap>but I want to create this news server on a seperate container so I don't risk that it ruins the webserver
10:19<ratrace>sounds a bit convoluted. why can't you have a single MTA deal will all of SMTP/MX tasks?
10:19<kiwichap>I probably could but I liked the idea of having two
10:20<koollman>why would you configure sendmail at all ? :)
10:20<kiwichap>because the operating system I am using strongly recommends sendmail
10:20<koollman>which one is it ?
10:20<ratrace>kiwichap: that's just twice the maintenance for no particular gain
10:20<kiwichap>for my debian system I use postfix
10:20<kiwichap>freebsd
10:21<kiwichap>they consider it defiant if I use something else but sendmail they allow it
10:21<koollman>hm. they haven't started providing some reasonable mta instead ?
10:21<ratrace>kiwichap: that's not really true
10:21<ratrace>freebsd doesn't really recommend sendmail and there are/have been talks to kick it out of the base even
10:21*ratrace <-- former freebsd ports maintainer and committer.
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10:22<ratrace>it comes with it in the base because historic reasons, but in 2021, unless you have legacy systems that _require_ it for whatever reason (some obscure milter for example), it's recommended to use Postfix.
10:22<kiwichap>that's what a lot of them told me
10:22<ratrace>that's nonsense whoever told you that
10:22<kiwichap>like the Japanese guy or Allan or Mike, etc..
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10:23<koollman>https://docs.freebsd.org/en/books/handbook/mail/#mail-changingmta I would consider this to be the official freebsd opinion
10:23<ratrace>sendmail is least secure and most complicated. nobody sane would recommend using sendmail in 2021
10:23<kiwichap>they said it's installed by default for a reason
10:23<grawity>they didn't say that the reason is good
10:23<ratrace>yes because changing something in the base in freebsd takes decades of mailing list bikeshedding.
10:23<koollman>kiwichap: legacy is a reason. Not always a good one
10:23<grawity>nor that the reason is still relevant 25 years after they began installing it by default
10:23<kiwichap>they said it's the most widely used mta and everyone from small scale to large scale is using it
10:24<ratrace>uhhhhh..... what
10:24<ratrace>the most widely used are postfix and exim, and exim only because it's used by cpanel.
10:24<koollman>kiwichap: that is just plain wrong
10:24<ratrace>sendmail _WAS_ most used like 20 years ago
10:25<kiwichap>https://www.proofpoint.com/us/customer-stories
10:25<ratrace>all this is becoming ripe for #debian-offtopic tho. :) bottom line, unless you need a legacy milter, don't use sedmail.
10:26<kiwichap>ok will keep that in mind for debian
10:26<koollman>http://www.securityspace.com/s_survey/data/man.201801/mxsurvey.html
10:26<koollman>those are some numbers
10:27<ratrace>seems legit
10:27<koollman>kiwichap: keep that in mind for every system
10:27<kiwichap>how do I get the news loaded?
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10:29<kiwichap>thank you
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10:30<vv221>kiwichap, from my experience it is *much* easier to setup a single MTA (I chose Postfix here) and have all other systems/containers use it for their mail needs.
10:30<vv221>I use nullmailer on all the systems/containers that rely on the central MTA.
10:30<ratrace>kiwichap: google returns this: https://defuse.ca/inn-private-newsgroup-server-setup.htm however keep in mind:
10:30<ratrace>!tutorials
10:30<dpkg>A very common problem is that some people prefer to follow a step-by-step tutorial that shows them how to setup their system without reading the documentation or understanding what they are doing. If something goes wrong, they have no clue whatsoever about where to look for hints, and they sometimes decide to start from scratch using a different tutorial. This is not The Proper Way.
10:30<koollman>kiwichap: news are a very differnet problem, not linked to mta choices
10:30<koollman>(also, concerning mta, if you want something that feels more bsd-ish or want something 'not postfix', try opensmtpd)
10:31<kiwichap>dpkg I prefer that way because I find I learn some hard lessons
10:31<dpkg>no idea, kiwichap
10:31<kiwichap>and I see it working that way
10:31<ratrace>,v openssmtpd
10:31<judd>No package named 'openssmtpd' was found in amd64.
10:31<ratrace>,v opensmtpd
10:31<judd>Package: opensmtpd on amd64 -- stretch: 6.0.2p1-2+deb9u3; stretch-proposed-updates: 6.0.2p1-2+deb9u3; stretch-security: 6.0.2p1-2+deb9u3; buster: 6.0.3p1-5+deb10u4; buster-security: 6.0.3p1-5+deb10u4; buster-backports: 6.6.4p1-2~bpo10+1; bullseye: 6.8.0p2-3; sid: 6.8.0p2-3
10:31<kiwichap>I agree it doesn't fill the gaps but I prefer to start with a tutorial walk through then to be out there in left field
10:32<kiwichap>cause maybe if I just read the theory I will think something but there's no way to give me a check and bound or there's something I didn't catch
10:32<koollman>kiwichap: the typical problem is that tutorials usually don't explain you why you're doing things, only what steps to follow to reach one specific setup
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10:32<kiwichap>agree
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10:33<ratrace>kiwichap: well you're asking a very broad question "how do I use <some software>". docs are the best place to start, and I agree, looking up tutorials just to see how people use it, but don't rely just on tutorials
10:33<kiwichap>but eventually I start to learn what it means
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10:33<kiwichap>there isn't a lot of tutorials on this or explanation and the problem is I don't know how to do stuff on debian
10:34<kiwichap>so that's an issue also
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10:34<kiwichap>for example how do I see the services that I can load in freebsd I check /etc/rc.d or usr/local/etc/rc.d
10:34<ratrace>maybe because newsgroups are so 20th century now :)
10:34<kiwichap>then it shows me the services I can load
10:35<ratrace>kiwichap: might be adviseable to start with "what's systemd" and how to use it on a modern linux.
10:35<ratrace>"init scripts" are also so 20th century
10:35<kiwichap>yes someone mentioned that the other day I didn't know what it was
10:35<kiwichap>I will check into systemd
10:35<grawity>services in Debian are listed by `systemctl list-unit-files`, but if you want actual files then `ls /{etc,lib}/systemd/system/*.service`
10:37<kiwichap>thanks that's pretty cool
10:37<ratrace>list-unit-files covers all systemd units, not just .service type tho
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10:38<ratrace>it's _really_ worth trying to understand what systemd (the init and process manager is), and how it differs from systemd the project/middleware, and what are the (novel) concepts of it.
10:40<kiwichap>what is it the equivalent of ratrace?
10:40<kiwichap>in freebsd
10:40<ratrace>no such thing exists in bsd land. unless you cound launchd in osx
10:40<ratrace>*count
10:41<kiwichap>what about windows?
10:41<ratrace>bsds are ancient, simplistic unixes that still dwell in 1980s paradigms and mindsets
10:41<ratrace>I'm not familiar with windows init and process management, to make a comparison.
10:42<ratrace>something something svchost something. is best I can do :)
10:42<kiwichap>with special talented doctors from Japan that manage it and come up with some crazy cool complex things and people that worked with Dennis Ritchie and Ken Thompson
10:42<kiwichap>ok that helps
10:43<kiwichap>I will read up on it
10:43<ratrace>sure, bsds were all the rage 20, 30 years ago
10:43<kiwichap>they are still raging though Playstation is still using them, Amazon, Facebook, Microsoft, Seagate, ARM, etc..
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10:44<ratrace>actually no. the commercial variants that are _based_ on (free)bsd like playstation, is not the garden variety bsd. it's not even the same OS, let alone the kernel.
10:44<ratrace>and yeah, some companies still use it for various purposes.
10:45<ratrace>but, offtopic :)
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10:51<kiwichap>merci anyways
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11:03<kiwichap>thanks
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12:06<hacker>你好
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12:07<kiwichap>hi
12:07<kiwichap>what's up?
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12:42<tia3100>I am still seraching for full apt documentation
12:42<tia3100>Looking up there is package apt-doc
12:43<tia3100>But after installing it, I have no clue where those guides/documentation is at
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12:45<tia3100>Never mind, found apt-doc in /usr/share/doc/apt-doc... but even there there is no full apt documentation
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12:46<vv221>tia3100, I am not sure the "full documentation" you are looking for exists.
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12:47<tia3100>That be my concern, I have looked in everywhere I could, but can't find anything resembling complete description for apt
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12:50<tia3100>For example apt rdepends is only mentioned in Debian Reference in one line for apt-cache,
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12:51<tia3100>And in Debian Reference Card as command
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12:52<vv221>To be fair, I doubt rdepends is really a command that apt should provide, given its purpose.
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13:17<tia3100>I won't argue whether it shoudl have it or not, rather that it has it, and it woudl be nice if it was better documented.
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13:43<vv221>Well, feel free to open an report ;) Lack of documentation probably qualifies as a bug.
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14:00<scorpion2185[m]>ratrace: You lost the bet.
14:01<scorpion2185[m]>!bullseye pool 1
14:01<dpkg>! abrotman=2021-09-09 scorpion2185=2021-08-25 antto=2021-07-07 räträcé=2021-06-13 jëlly=2021-06-06 themíll=2021-09-01
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14:03<sney>rip
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14:07<tia3100>vv221, you are right, I should report a bug for lack of documentation
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14:16<pcglue>/!\ TዘΙᏚ ϹⲎАⲚΝᎬL ᎻᎪS ΜOᏙЕD TO IRC.ⅬIВEᎡA.CዘAT #HΑΜRΑDΙO /︕\
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14:23<unkmar>WTF: xscreensaver is turning my monitor on. The very thing that is suppose to turn it off.
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14:25<tia3100>unkmar: How did you even figured that out?
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14:41<ratrace>scorpion2185[m]: yes, unfortunately.
14:41<ratrace>what's worse, the RC count was going UP for a few days!
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15:26<househorse[m|gr]>/ǃ﹨ ΤHIЅ ϹⲎΑNNᎬL HAЅ ᎷОVED TO IRϹ.LⅠBᎬRA.ϹΗᎪT ﹟ᕼAMᖇΑDIΟ /ⵑ\
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15:35<MTecknology>I'm trying to play with gnome-shell and struggling to figure out why I can't add a printer. IPP is supported by the printer, so it seems like it /should/ be stupidly easy. The only thing showing up in the add printer list is "CUPS-BRF-Printer" and I can't seem any way to manually specify ipp://print.domain.tld.
15:36<sney>is it a cups problem or a gnome problem? i.e., can you add the printer via the http://localhost:631/ interface?
15:37<MTecknology>ah, right.. I forgot about that interface
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15:39<Sqrt{not}>IME, CUPS can find the IPP printers from the avahi discovery; if not there is some avahi incantation you can do from command line, and then it should just show up in cups
15:39<sney>right, that works with mine
15:40<sney>but it wouldn't be *that* shocking for gnome to just... not include some option in the settings widget, making it more difficult to add a printer that needs to be poked manually
15:41<MTecknology>I have poor luck with avahi when things cross subnets
15:41<MTecknology>I was able to add the printer through the web interface, so apparently it's a gnome problem (one that I don't care about anymore)
15:42<Sqrt{not}>yah, I don't think gnome needs to get involved in it at all
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15:49<MTecknology>hrm... exact same settings between two systems, but I can only print from one. :/
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15:51<sney>print troubleshooting is Fun(tm)
15:52<sney>you said these are on different network segments, you don't have a firewall in there do you?
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15:53<MTecknology>I wonder if I made a typo... deleted and re-added via system-config-printer and now it's working a-okay.
15:53<MTecknology>Yeah, there's a firewall in there.
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15:59<sney>well, the firewall is probably what's breaking avahi, but a typo can break anything :P
15:59<sney>glad you got it working
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16:09<MTecknology>ah, very well could be. I never put much effort into it and usually just uninstall avahi
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16:50<otherj>/!\ TΗΙS CHᎪNNEᏞ ⲎΑS MOⅤED ΤΟ ΙRϹ.LІBERA.CHAT #ΗAϺRᎪⅮIΟ /!\
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16:55<daniel_>Hi
16:56<tia3100>hello
16:56<daniel_>are there 900+ people online here?
16:59<tia3100>Not sure how many are active right now
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17:01<petn-randall>daniel_: If your IRC client says so, it's probably right.
17:01<sney>there are 965 users but rarely more than ~15 active at once
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17:07<daniel_>ohh that makes sense
17:07<daniel_>I thought that was how many were online
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17:08-!-mode/#debian [+l 975] by debhelper
17:08<daniel_>I just got a new Desktop environment and had this app come with it, so I have no Idea how this works or how I got here
17:08-!-tomaw is "Tom Wesley <tom@tomaw.net>" on #tor @#tomaw @#thrustvps #supybot #spi #sd #perl #ovirt #OpenBSD @#oftc-tomaw
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17:08<sney>!new2irc
17:08<dpkg>You are chatting on IRC. IRC is the original group chat. Similar to platforms like Slack, Matrix, or Discord, IRC was invented in the 1980s and formalized with RFC 1459 in 1993. This channel, #debian, is for help with the debian operating system. Ask us a debian support question, or read more about IRC at https://netsplit.de or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IRC
17:08<petn-randall>Well, they are "online", they might just be afk.
17:08<petn-randall>daniel_: Ah, did you install Kali?
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17:09<daniel_>nah. I'm on Debian, but this app came with the cinnamon-desktop-environment apt package
17:09<daniel_>it's called HexChat
17:09<petn-randall>Ah, I see.
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17:12<sney>daniel_: IRC is very low-bandwidth and the clients (like hexchat) don't use a lot of system resources, so people who use IRC all the time tend to leave their client running, even if they're not at the computer. Or they use a program called a 'bouncer' to stay online and get messages for them.
17:12<sney>in the dialup days, when an internet connection was a lot more expensive and a lot less reliable, that 959 might be the number of actual users. but now it's mostly idlers because staying "online" is essentially free.
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17:15<daniel_>ohh that makes sense. so this is an IRC client? @sney
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17:16<sney>right
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17:16<daniel_>ohhh I see
17:16<daniel_>thanks for the explanation btw
17:16<sney>np.
17:16<daniel_>that helps me understand why there are idler
17:16<daniel_>s
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17:22<tia3100>If you register your nickname you could join other channels, such as #debian-next, #debian-offtopic, #debian-kde
17:22<tia3100>But they don't seem much more activfe then main #debian channel
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17:23<petn-randall>tia3100: "more active" is the not the best comparison, they have different topics.
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17:24<tia3100>petn-randall: I guess that is true
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17:53<unkmar>tia3100: I killed the xscreensaver daemon, and rerun my little script. "sleep 2; xset dpms force off" Then waited a few minutes. Screen stayed off.
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18:00<urk>Is release Buster RC 2 out yet?
18:01<urk>I really need a wireless connection for my Dell XPS once I take off. So far I am using kernel 4.19 with no problem at all, but it is hard wired.
18:01<quadrat>there is no buster RC2? (btw I assume you mean bullseye) it's only the installer which has RC. which no there is no RC2
18:02<urk>Oophs. YOu are right. Now let me screw my head on straight. Yes, Bullseye.
18:02<quadrat>does for example the weekly image not work?
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18:03<urk>URL please
18:04<quadrat>non-free i assume?
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18:04<quadrat>oh interestig, they released RC2 but not on the site https://cdimage.debian.org/images/unofficial/non-free/images-including-firmware/bullseye_di_rc2+nonfree/amd64/iso-cd/
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18:05<urk>I have a 2019 Dell XPS so I still have to install firmware separately?
18:06<quadrat>depends on the wifi card?
18:06<urk>quadrat: I have an Intel card.
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18:06<quadrat>yes, intel needs a firmware blob
18:07<urk>I tried Bullseye with kernel 5.10 when it was in the unstable condition, but OS kept crashing when I ran the chmod command.
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18:07<urk>I went back to kernel 4.19, and it is very solid.
18:07<quadrat>_shrug_ no idea what happened
18:07<urk>I would like to see an installer with the firmware built in.
18:08<quadrat>that's the one i linked
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18:08-!-lenharo is "Daniel Lenharo" on #minidebconf-online #debian-social #debian-nonupload #debian-next #debian-lists #debian-i18n #debian-devel-changes #debian-devel-br #debian-bsb #debian-br #debian
18:10<urk>ok, I didn't get my coffee today.. . .Thanks for sharing the url.
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20:49<qrpnxz>udisksctl was working fine, now it's mounting the filesystem i want, rendering unusable. What's going on?
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21:00<Sqrt{not}>qrpnxz, "What did you do? What happened? What did you expect to happen?"
21:02<qrpnxz>i did udisksctl loop-setup -f file, it mounted the loop device, i expected it to mount it, and it did mount it but with root user hence unusable
21:02<qrpnxz>problem is just permissions like i said
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21:07<qrpnxz>I think ik the answer: the filesystem is ext4, which cannot have user set on mount options for ext4. Hence I believe I must set the owner once on it and it will work in the future.
21:09<Sqrt{not}>qrpnxz, " just permissions like i said" ??? I missed the part where you said that, i guess. Is it ok now then?
21:10<qrpnxz>like thought i said i mean yikes just reread what i put for 15th time, magically seeing what i actually wrote hahaha. Sorry about that. Anyway, i think this is the solution
21:11<qrpnxz>"now it's mounting the filesystem i want, rendering unusable" lmfao, total nonsense
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21:12<Sqrt{not}>Well, you figured it out :) sometimes just writing out what you are dealing with, helps somebody sort out their problem/
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21:14<qrpnxz>yeah, good think i saw that about ext4 before or i might never have figured it out
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21:16<qrpnxz>ext4 is not usb friendly then, i wonder what the best alternative would be
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21:17<Sqrt{not}>umm, you can just directly mount a usb ext4 partition. DE automounters will even mount it for you, as your user.
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21:21<Sqrt{not}>it looks like you are not talking about the same thing --- mounting a loop device, or mounting an ext4 partition?
21:21<qrpnxz>if you format it on your system with your user this is the case, but i think not otherwise. Thankfully most desktop users are 1000
21:21<qrpnxz>my loop device is ext4 formatted
21:23<Sqrt{not}>so, where does the usb part come in? you said "ext4 is not usb friendly then" what is this mix of ext4/usb/loop ? and why?
21:24<qrpnxz>if you format a usb with ext4 and the owner of the root of the ext4 is not the same as the user that mounts it, then they are not going to be able to use it
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21:24<qrpnxz>because ext4 cannot be mounted as another user, you have to change the user after you mount it
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21:31<Sqrt{not}>qrpnxz, can't you set the permissions inside the partition to allow group+other to access what you want?
21:32<Sqrt{not}>and I still don't see why there is this loop device layer?
21:32<qrpnxz>ehhh, i'm gonna try that! good solution
21:33<qrpnxz>i'm just talking about ext4 idk why you are bringing up loop device either
21:34<Sqrt{not}>"qrpnxz> i did udisksctl loop-setup -f file, it mounted the loop device"
21:34<Sqrt{not}><qrpnxz> my loop device is ext4 formatted
21:34<qrpnxz>yeah that's what i was doing before, i think we are now just talking about ext4. If you want i can tell you why i was using loop devices, but it's irrelevant to the current topic
21:35<Sqrt{not}>no, that's OK ! better to leave that out of it
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21:38<qrpnxz>yeah that worked, better solution. Now should work for any user
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21:39<qrpnxz>though if i create a folder inside it uses my user and group, and my umask doesn't let other users access it, so... still a bit problematic, but you can just run recursive chmod once in a while i suppose
21:39<Sqrt{not}>you can set your umask to whatever you want. if you don't like what it is, change it.
21:41<qrpnxz>can't change the umask of nautilus on a per directory level :)
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21:42<Sqrt{not}>The intarweb suggests: "Try creating ~/.gnomerc and adding the umask value."
21:44<Sqrt{not}>You can also change directory and/or file permissions inside nautilus with the mouse
21:44<qrpnxz>i think setuid bit will probably fix this
21:45<qrpnxz>ah no because the umask still bad
21:45<qrpnxz>nvm
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22:43<qrpnxz>acl perms could be the answer
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22:48-!-swift110 is "realname" on #forthenerds #postmarketos #OpenBSD #oftc #debian
22:50-!-mambang [~rnm@0002afe6.user.oftc.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
22:55-!-ddsys [~ddsys@0002a5a5.user.oftc.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
22:55-!-rangergord [~rangergor@2001:470:1af1:101::8269] has left #debian [User left]
23:06-!-dickhype999 [~user@8VQAABMQJ.tor-irc.dnsbl.oftc.net] has joined #debian
23:06-!-dickhype999 is "user" on #debian
23:06<dickhype999>does anyone know how i can get my rasbian os out of cli mode? lol... hmu
23:08-!-RagingMind [~ragingmin@108-88-15-141.lightspeed.livnmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
23:10-!-dickhype999 [~user@8VQAABMQJ.tor-irc.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit []
23:20-!-kini [~kini@2600:1700:8a10:71e0:397a:d48f:b731:813] has joined #debian
23:20-!-kini is "Keshav Kini -- http://github.com/kini" on #debian-japanese @#aptitude #debian-pdx #debian #virt #debian-next #llvm
23:24-!-gdb [~cbell@136.32.21.117] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal]
23:26-!-dvs [~hibbard@00012127.user.oftc.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
23:26-!-jimklimov [~jimklimov@1-55-215-135.higio.net] has joined #debian
23:26<jimklimov>/!\ THIS CΗAΝNEL HAS ⅯOⅤΕᎠ ΤⲞ IRⲤ․LⅠΒERΑ.CHAT #ᕼAϺRАDIΟ ᜵︕∖
23:26-!-jimklimov is "jimklimov" on #virt #oftc #tor #debian
23:26-!-jimklimov [~jimklimov@1-55-215-135.higio.net] has quit [autokilled: spambot. Dont mail support@oftc.net with questions (2021-06-14 03:26:48)]
23:27-!-kini [~kini@0001c584.user.oftc.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
23:29-!-kini [~kini@2600:1700:8a10:71e0::21] has joined #debian
23:29-!-kini is "Keshav Kini -- http://github.com/kini" on #debian-japanese @#aptitude #debian-pdx #debian #virt #debian-next #llvm
23:32-!-jdmark_ [~jdmark@67.8.137.130] has joined #debian
23:32-!-jdmark_ is "jdmark" on #tor #debian #postmarketos #postmarketos-porting
23:33-!-Brainium [~brainium@00028330.user.oftc.net] has joined #debian
23:33-!-Brainium is "brainium" on #debian-social #linux #virt #C #tor-project #debian-br #debian-kde #debian
23:33-!-PaMeDa [~apauli@dynamic-077-006-146-008.77.6.pool.telefonica.de] has joined #debian
23:33-!-PaMeDa is "apauli" on #debian
23:35-!-jdmark [~jdmark@000274e6.user.oftc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
23:38-!-ax56234 [~NickServ@0002affd.user.oftc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
23:38-!-larzen is now known as larzen-away
23:38-!-larzen-away [~larzen@S01063497f663ca38.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
23:40-!-gdb [~cbell@136.32.21.117] has joined #debian
23:40-!-gdb is "Christofer C. Bell" on #debian
23:41-!-NomadJim [~Jim@2001:5b0:2d54:f088:49f0:590b:5578:58dc] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
23:42-!-newtons [~newtons@101.39.196.178.dynamic.wline.res.cust.swisscom.ch] has joined #debian
23:42-!-newtons is "newtons" on #debian
23:42-!-NomadJim [~Jim@72.168.160.84] has joined #debian
23:42-!-NomadJim is "Nomad" on #linode #debian
23:45-!-jdmark_ [~jdmark@67.8.137.130] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
23:48<qrpnxz>dickhype999, try `startx`
23:49-!-NomadJim [~Jim@72.168.160.84] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
23:50<sney>[21:10:34] <-- dickhype999 has quit ()
23:51<sney>they never stick around for long
23:51-!-NomadJim [~Jim@2001:5b0:2d54:8898:49f0:590b:5578:58dc] has joined #debian
23:51-!-NomadJim is "Nomad" on #linode #debian
23:53-!-stylesen_ [~stylesen@117.221.10.128] has joined #debian
23:53-!-stylesen_ is "stylesen" on #debian #debian-india
23:55-!-tomcat_berlin [~tomcat_be@36-232-61-24.dynamic-ip.hinet.net] has joined #debian
23:55<tomcat_berlin>/!\ THIS ϹⲎANΝΕᏞ ΗАЅ ϺⲞVΕⅮ TO ⅠRϹ.ᏞⅠBᎬᎡᎪ.CHAТ #HAΜᏒAᎠΙΟ /﹗\
23:55-!-tomcat_berlin is "tomcat_berlin" on #virt #oftc #tor #debian
23:55-!-tomcat_berlin [~tomcat_be@36-232-61-24.dynamic-ip.hinet.net] has quit [autokilled: spambot. Dont mail support@oftc.net with questions (2021-06-14 03:55:44)]
23:55-!-Brainium [~brainium@00028330.user.oftc.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!]
23:56-!-mikkel [~mikkel@00029f15.user.oftc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
23:57-!-newtons [~newtons@101.39.196.178.dynamic.wline.res.cust.swisscom.ch] has quit []
23:57-!-blue_penquin is now known as Guest2047
23:57-!-Guest2047 is now known as blue_penquin
23:59-!-stylesen [~stylesen@117.221.7.217] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
---Logclosed Mon Jun 14 00:00:27 2021