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#debian IRC Logs for 2021-06-14

---Logopened Mon Jun 14 00:00:27 2021
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00:44<qrpnxz>there a way to know from the shell if you are in a graphical environment or not? (i.e. you can open things like firefox)
00:45<sney>for X, see if DISPLAY is defined
00:46<Tj>qrpnxz: for X, generally "if [[ -n $DISPLAY ]]; then ..."
00:46<Tj>not sure if using a wayland compositor
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01:36<qrpnxz>ty
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01:43<muley>⁄!\ ΤHIS ⲤᎻᎪΝΝΕL HΑᏚ MOVEᗪ ᎢO ⅠᏒⅭ.ᏞІBERΑ.ⲤHAT ﹟HΑMRAᎠІⲞ /!\
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02:16<vv221>qrpnxz, if you are looking for a filesystem for USB storage that is easy to setup, I suggest giving a try to UDF: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Disk_Format / https://packages.debian.org/buster/udftools
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02:18<qrpnxz>vv221, you know after looking at a crapload of fsys that was my frontrunner, but i was worried about support and just weird behaviour on flash medium. But since you mention it, i'll try it out
02:19<qrpnxz>mainly my problem is with permissions, idk if udf is gonna save me here
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02:21<vv221>It has uid/gid and mode/dmode mount options that can help, the most interesting being uid=forget meaning "don’t store user info on the media".
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04:00<scorpion2185[m]>ratrace: RC?
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04:02<ratrace>release critical
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04:31<ratrace>ExecStart=/etc/init.d/isc-dhcp-server start !!!!!!!!!!! WTH DEBIAN
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04:59<Hash>Are you guys closing down on Freenode?
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05:04<petn-randall>Hash: This has always been the official Debian channel, and we moved here 15 years ago.
05:05<petn-randall>ratrace: That's how the systemd init script wrapper works. Nothing crazy about that.
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05:21<ratrace>petn-randall: actually it's not. systemd generators use init.d automatically, not when a .service unit is available. this is just plain wrong
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05:22<ratrace>petn-randall: actually, you're correct ... I'm dumb. We're both correct. there is NO .service unit. I used systemctl cat instead of looking up the actual unit file. my bad.
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05:23<Anarka>anyone using intel xl710 nics ? i get "The driver for the device detected an older version of the NVM image than expected. Please update the NVM image." is there any debian solution or do i need to update with fw from intel ?
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05:30<petn-randall>ratrace: Yes, in absence of a systemd unit, systemd will generate a wrapper around the init script.
05:31<petn-randall>Which may look weird, but actually makes life a lot easier.
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05:41<ratrace>petn-randall: yeah I know that part, I just confused myself by using systemctl "cat" and thinking it's a packaged .unit file
05:41<ratrace>eh .service unit file, I mean
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05:41<ratrace>(and that didn't seem wrong because I already seen debian .service units doing stupid things, like nginx (packaged) .service unit using start-stop-daemon....)
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06:21<mendelmunkis>can anyone reccomend a method for finding domain specific wordlists?
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06:24<ratrace>mendel_munkis: elaborate please
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06:26<mendel_munkis>I am trying to find a text file containing only many flower names, besides for basic google queries I have no idea where to start looking.
06:27<ratrace>how's that related to debian tho?
06:28<mendel_munkis>well I was slightly considering packaging many small wordlists for convenience
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06:59<hesco>⁄!\ ᎢHIᏚ CዘᎪΝⲚEL HAЅ ϺOVED ΤO IᏒC․LIᗷΕᖇA.CHАᎢ #HΑMᎡADⅠⲞ /!﹨
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07:01<xeu>/!⧹ TΗⅠS CHᎪNNEⅬ HАЅ ΜOVED TΟ ΙᖇⅭ.LⅠΒEᎡA.ⲤΗΑΤ #HAMRAᗪIO ᜵!\
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07:13<Fish->/﹗﹨ THIS ⅭᎻAⲚNEᏞ НАS MΟᏙΕⅮ ТО ΙRС.LІBERA.CHΑΤ #ⲎAMᖇᎪⅮIO /!\
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07:13<choozy>uplime, you could try the instructions for setting the default gateway in this article: https://vitux.com/network-configuration-in-debian/
07:13<choozy>If there is a better method please correct my suggestion
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07:49<ratrace>anyone with terrible hostapd performance experience? I suspect simply the firmware or hardware is garbage, for AP mode because I can't find any clues in anything else. bridged mode, or NAT, same thing. the AP is one meter away from the latop I'm doing connection tests on. I should have 150MBps in 802.11n mode, but instead I have less than 1MBps.
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07:50<ratrace>the wifi USB dongle is a TP-Link thingy that wants and gets the rt2870.bin firmware. In normal (non-AP) mode I get advertised speeds. But in AP mode, it's 1990s again and 14.4k modem speeds....
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07:53<ratrace>the laptop wifi (I'm doing tests from) is also fine. intel iwlwifi thing that otherwise works normal and expected with another hotspot
07:53<ratrace>bullseye all around, 5.10, all firmware satisfied, no other hotspots active when I'm doing the test, yes made sure the channel is empty.
07:54<notsure>are linux GUIs screwed? debian's QT5 version is 5.11.3, on arch it's 5.15.2; and according to wikipedia they are both unsupported by qt?
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07:56<ratrace>notsure: the Year of the Linux Desktop happened, but not with GNU userland as everyone expected, and its' not desktop but mobile. GNU/Linux GUIs are garbage, yes.
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08:00<quadrat>notsure QT5 is still supported through the KDE EV. which has a patchset till KDE can move on to QT6. and debian will port things back
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08:05<wyre>could I see the process PID in the w output? 🤔
08:05<wyre>I can't see anything about in its manpage
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08:12<RoyK>wyre: don't think so, but a ps -u <username> or perhaps ps axfu should help you locate the processes belonging to that user
08:13<RoyK>wyre: or just ps axf|grep grep pts/xxx
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08:31<notsure>quadrat: I mean for general application development, not just KDE; even though gtk2 latest version (2.24) was in 2011 but it kept getting minor updates until 2018, same with gtk3 latest release (3.24) was 2018 but still got minor updates in 2021; so I guess gtk is way better in terms of support? (even though their versioning is quite strange gtk4 being 3.90)
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08:34<quadrat>i'm not sure how gtk handles it, but I remember there being 'unofficial' lts releases, that's why some releases get a way longer update cycle than others. the versioning makes sense as in gtk2 has version 2.x gtk3 has 3.x gtk is still in development that's why it's still 3.90 (as in ninety, as 100 will be seen as 4.0) 3.99 would be beta and RC
08:34<quadrat>releases
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09:01<dias>hello
09:01<quadrat>hi dias
09:01<dias>does the rtl8821ae driver works for the 8821ce?
09:01<dias>during the installation proccess
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09:02<quadrat>i don't think so, as there is a specific 8821ce driver, but i would say, try and see
09:03<dias>if i install without a driver from, will i be able to use an ethernet cable to download it, or is the driver for both the cable and wireless?
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09:04<Qubasa>/!\ THIS CHΑΝNΕᒪ HᎪS MOⅤED ТO ΙᖇС.ᏞIВEᎡA.CⲎΑT #НАΜRAᎠIⲞ ⧸﹗\
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09:05<dias>oh, i'lltry the rtlwifi drive, whch seems to be the generic version of the rtl
09:05<quadrat>and I would try the unofficial firmware iso image, as debian should have the firmware blobs
09:06<tia3100>Looking with apt-file, cionfig for 8821cw is included in linux-image-5.10.0-7
09:06<tia3100>I am on bullseye so I can't check if it is in 4.19 a well
09:07<dias>im using the net installer
09:07<tia3100>For buster or bullseye?
09:08<dias>i downloaded the stable version
09:08<tia3100>Oh, it is buster. I hope it will work for you
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09:09<quadrat>as the 8821c blob is included in firmware-realtek, it should work
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09:09<quadrat>but you would still need the firmware iso
09:10<tia3100>You could place firmware on additional usb, and let installer fetch it while installing
09:10<tia3100>But I think it woudl beasier to get iso with non-free firmware
09:10<tia3100>As I had trouble with ethernet withouth firmware-realtek
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09:15<dias>ooooh i see
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09:15<dias>ill get the non free
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09:15<dias>and try again, ty
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09:16<tia3100>There are non-free net installs
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09:17<tia3100>https://cdimage.debian.org/images/unofficial/non-free/images-including-firmware/10.9.0+nonfree/amd64/iso-cd/
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09:27<rsmith>Can anyone print with Debian bullseye, IPP Everywhere? There is an apparmor issue, but I still have trouble printing to a network printer
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09:31<bremner>rsmith: better to ask on #debian-next for bullseye. I certainly can network print from bullseye, but I'm not really a CUPS expert
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09:31<rsmith>thanks!
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10:03<aphirst>/!\ TΗIᏚ ⲤዘΑNΝEᏞ ΗAᏚ MОᏙΕD ТO ΙRC.LIBΕᎡᎪ․ⲤHᎪT #HAМᏒAᎠΙΟ ∕ⵑ\
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10:05<TheBigK>cool advertisement... probably not allowed tho i guess
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10:06<bremner>TheBigK: it's a spambot, just trying to cause trouble.
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10:07<TheBigK>okay...
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10:33<wyre>does someone know why I'm having this message? "gethostbyaddr(10.100.0.133) failed: 1"
10:33<wyre>it's sendmail misconfigured maybe?
10:34<wyre>s/it's/is
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10:36<wyre>apparently this is a problem with name resolution but I've added `127.0.1.1 <hostname> <hostname>.local` to my /etc/hosts ...
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10:39<peter1138>Do you think it might perhaps be trying to resolve 10.100.0.133 instead of 127.0.1.1?
10:39<wyre>peter1138, yes, apparently adding 10.100.0.133 I have not that error anymore
10:39<grawity>this sounds like the program is trying to resolve the system's FQDN
10:39<wyre>but there is no way to do this dynamically?
10:40<grawity>is this *your own* IP address, or some other system's?
10:40<wyre>grawity, my own
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10:40<wyre>and the program is apparently sendmail
10:41<grawity>it's not uncommon for mail programs to try to look up the system's FQDN, by first mapping the hostname to an address then back -- i.e. gethostbyname(<hostname>) -> 10.100.0.133, and then gethostbyaddr(10.100.0.133) -> hostname.example.com or something
10:42<grawity>basically rDNS
10:42<grawity>but having an /etc/hosts entry for your own FQDN *and* hostname in the same line (and in that order!) would cover this
10:43<wyre>grawity, but what IP? 127.0.1.1 or 10.100.0.133?
10:44<grawity>honestly it doesn't matter for this thing, Debian probably says 127.0.1.1, I actually merge it with the 127.0.0.1 localhost line (so I have "127.0.0.1 star.nullroute.eu.org star localhost")
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10:45<grawity>there are *some* programs which want the hostname to resolve to your "real" IP address ... but it's rare, I think OpenAFS is the only one that insisted on it on my servers
10:45<wyre>grawity, what about .local?
10:45<grawity>is that your domain?
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10:46<wyre>nope, but it's not localdomain like localhost?
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10:46<grawity>(for those which want the "real" address, you may want to try out libnss-myhostname, it's a lookup module that always dynamically returns whatever IP addreses you have -- no need for manual /etc/hosts entries)
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10:46<grawity>I really don't know what you're trying to ask about .local and .localdomain
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10:46<grawity>or why you had .local in the earlier example
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10:47*grawity (semi-afk)
10:48<grawity>in general, sendmail probably just wants *a* fqdn, doesn't care if it's a .example.com or a .local or whatever
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10:51<wyre>grawity, and what's the difference between 127.0.0.1 and 127.0.1.1?
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10:52<grawity>I *think* Debian keeps them separate, to preserve 'localhost' -> '127.0.0.1' -> 'localhost'
10:52<grawity>(instead of 'localhost' -> '127.0.0.1' -> '<hostname>')
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10:59<wyre>hmm... apparently including "127.0.0.1 localhost localhost.localdomain" and "127.0.1.1 <hostname> <hostname>.localdomain" is enough for sendmail, but sm-mta still says gethostbyaddr(10.100.0.133) failed: 1
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11:00<wyre>I don't know why this is enough for sendmail but not for sm-mta 😥
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11:05<grawity>like I said, the fqdn has to go first in the line (after the address)
11:05<wyre>yes, it goes
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11:06<grawity>your examples have the opposite
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11:07<wyre>well, now I've replaced by `127.0.0.1 <fqdn> <hostname> localhost`
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11:10<wyre>and still can see the sm-mta gethostbyaddr() ...
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11:10<wyre>I'm afraid I will have to add the IP explicitly to the /etc/hosts
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11:14<grawity>or, you know, implement reverse-DNS in your network
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11:15<wyre>or ignore the warning 😆
11:15<wyre>also ... I'm having another one about fstype, which says "/usr/bin/fstype started with executable stack"
11:15<wyre>and I'm not sure if I can safely ignore it
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12:55<volatile>technically `irc.debian.org` points to here (oftc)
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12:58<tia3100>I just upgraded thunderbird and all of my rss feeds lost URL
12:59<tia3100>Oh, I don't think it matters for Buster, wrong channel then
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13:22<Walex>tia3100: I have that the Thunderbird feeds functionality is "usable", that is has several issues and corner cases.
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13:25<petn-randall>Hi, what is a good way to string replace on the CLI, when the replacement string contains many forward slashes (some base64 encoded data).
13:25<petn-randall>sed -i 's/foo/<base64>/g' bar.txt won't work without copious amount of escaping.
13:26<somiaj>petn-randall: use ! ! as your seperators
13:26<somiaj>petn-randall: so s!/foo/bar!/foo/bar/new!g
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13:26<bremner>or , as sep?
13:26<petn-randall>somiaj: Of course! I totally forgot about that.
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13:26<somiaj>I'm unsure what characters can be used as seperators
13:26<somiaj>does , work?
13:26<bremner>yes
13:26<somiaj>cool
13:27<somiaj>I just alernate between / and !
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13:27<Walex>I usually prefer "%" as the alternative to "/" because "!" is overly special in some shells :-)
13:28<Walex>another goos choice is "^" which is "neutral"
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13:28<mambang> /msg dpkg irclog
13:28<somiaj>though ^ is also start of line...
13:28<petn-randall>I think ! won't work if the replacement string is sourced from an env var, e.g. `sed -i "s!foo!${MY_ENV_VAR}!" bar.txt` will probably do weird things in the shell.
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13:29<somiaj>petn-randall: ahh yea, " vs ' probably gets there, try to other suggestions
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13:30<Walex>BTW very few know that "^" used to be special, it used to be a synonym for "|" in shell syntax, a long time ago, in a galaxy far away :-)
13:31<petn-randall>Walex: Thanks for passing that ancient wisdom along, gramps^Wgreybeard. ;)
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13:31<somiaj>Apperentally, if POSIX, "Any character other than backslash or newline can be used instead of a slash to delimit the BRE and the replacement."
13:32<Walex>somiaj: sure, but it is unwise to take that literally...
13:32<somiaj>yea, I thought there was a limited set, and not all sed's follow the same rules
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13:35<Walex>I would not ask from a refund from the POSIX committee if 'sed "s[a[b["' causes some trouble in some implementations, or 'sed "s[[ab][z["' is not allowed :-)
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13:56<rsundar[m|gr]>/!﹨ TᎻⅠЅ СHANNEᏞ HAS MOVΕⅮ ΤO ΙRᏟ.ᏞIⲂΕᎡA.ϹHАΤ #HΑMRAᎠIO ∕!\
13:56-!-rsundar[m|gr] [~rsundarm|@1-172-25-63.dynamic-ip.hinet.net] has quit [autokilled: spambot. Dont mail support@oftc.net with questions (2021-06-14 17:56:15)]
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13:57<tia3100>By god, these bots
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13:58<imMute>I just don't get why it's always the same channel. like did someone set up a bot and not do it right and then forget about it?
13:59<sney>probably, it's certainly automated
13:59<ajak>they do many channels across multiple networks
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14:00<imMute>it's either incompetence. or someone who is using the recent freenode kerfluffle as a smokescreen to just be annoying for annoyance sake
14:00<vv221>I guess the question was more about why #hamradio
14:00<sney>a tiny little private hacker network I'm on was getting them too. they disabled new connections for 24h to make it stop and the bots didn't come back after that
14:00<vv221>Probably some defamation campaign that started years ago…
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14:01<sney>why #hamradio is simply because it's big, and the only goal of the spam is to make people fight each other.
14:01<imMute>vv221: ham radio people are even more cliquey/spiteful than normal, even for IRC. so it wouldn't surprise me if the author had a beef from a decade ago
14:01<sney>I wouldn't be surprised if #hamradio was getting "this channel has moved to irc.oftc.net #debian" spam, at least at first
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14:02<MTecknology>If they're getting that spam, it probably also uses #hr
14:02<ajak>hm, i'll ask them out of curiosity
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14:08<MTecknology>hrm... a chinese website claiming to share new is referring to covid-19 as "Wuhan pneumonia" and commenting about how the US will no longer accept EUAs for drugs/treatment. (which makes sense... EUAs are for emergencies... it's in the name)
14:09<MTecknology>ref: https://times.hinet.net/news/23370452 (looking at the last spam bots hostmask)
14:10<imMute>MTecknology: hinet is a huge Chinese ISP. it shouldn't be surprising that two unrelated things are using it.
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14:13<bremner>so far the consensus among ops is that tolerating the botspam is better than making it harder for legit help seekers to joinb the channel. If it starts to drown out actual on-topic discussion (as opposed to discussion about spam ;)) that can change. Or if the spam itself becomes more unpleasant in certain ways.
14:13<bremner>Anyway, probably better not to feed the trolls.
14:13<sney>they're always autokilled before the commentary starts
14:14<sney>I agree with that approach, fwiw
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14:15<bremner>people can allways invoke <bang>ops if more intervention is needed
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14:16<ajak>seems libera#hamradio somehow isn't too familiar with the bots :)
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14:30<kali_>mbond
14:30<kali_>what is htat
14:30<sney>!kali
14:30<dpkg>Kali Linux https://kali.org/ is a security/penetration testing distribution from the creators of <backtrack>. It is based on Debian, but is different enough that we don't provide support in #debian. Seek help in #kali-linux on irc.libera.chat or https://forums.kali.org/ . Also ask me about <based on debian> and read https://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/bugs.html
14:30<kali_>how did you come up with that name?
14:31<petn-randall>kali_: Do you have a Debian support question?
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14:58<jimpop>what's the best way to remove left over pkgs/libs after upgrading from buster to bullseye? (e.g. thing's like libnettle6, etc.)
15:00<petn-randall>jimpop: `aptitude purge ~o` will purge any obsolete packages. Pay close attention to the package list, though, before confirming.
15:01<jimpop>thx!
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15:05-!-srgrint_ is "Simon Richard Grint" on #debian
15:06<somiaj>petn-randall: apt purge ~o
15:07<somiaj>petn-randall: starting with apt in bullseye, most search flags are now supported, man apt-patterns
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15:07-!-free2 is "☃" on #tor #suckless #pwmt #wmii #awesomewm #vtwm @#debian-swaywmi#debbugs #debian-swaywm #spectrwm #bash-completion #bash #debian-offtopic #debian-next #debian #debian-forums #debian-tech @#cpp #c++ ##C #C #postgresql @#web #mariadb #mysql #java #php ##linux #linux #DeforaOS #privacytech #tkiwitest #garlic #offtopic @#prog #publiclab #bitbot #mitmproxy @#ProxAllium #help @#0FTC @#ah-da-dpl @#foofoobar #dakbot
15:08<apteryx_>hello, what are the compression formats supported by .deb?
15:08<somiaj>apteryx_: what do you mean?
15:08<apteryx_>The old deb man pages mentionned only gz, bz2 or lzma (xz)
15:08<apteryx_>mentions*
15:09<somiaj>oh compression, sorry I read that wrong. a deb is an 'ar' archive, and I think contains two tar's in it by default, though unsure how they are compressed
15:09<sney>#packaging would likely know, but anecdotally I've only seen gz or xz
15:10<apteryx_>OK
15:10<sney>I think I heard maybe that zstd was added recently
15:10<somiaj>https://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/debian-faq/pkg-basics.en.html#deb-format -- man 5 deb
15:10<apteryx_>ah, I can't join #packaging as I'm not registered on this server.
15:11<somiaj>there has been a lot of spam, so some channels are +R
15:11<somiaj>but man 5 deb, that should give you info
15:12<somiaj>seems the control.tar can only be compressed with .gz or .xz, while the data.tar can use .gz, .xz, or .bz2 (this is on bullseye)
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15:16<apteryx_>OK. Thanks a lot!
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15:19<apteryx_>bhttps://linux.die.net/man/5/deb only mentions .tar.gz for the control file, seems outdated
15:21<petn-randall>apteryx_: These feels a little bit like an XY problem. What overall goal do you have?
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15:26<sney>apteryx_: for debian man pages, manpages.debian.org is the place to look. https://manpages.debian.org/unstable/dpkg-dev/deb.5.en.html
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15:29<apteryx_>petn-randall: adding a .deb format output to the guix package manager
15:30<imMute>apteryx_: IIRC, the control files are pretty small, so any gains from switching compression formats would be negligible.
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15:30<apteryx_>sney: thanks
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15:30<apteryx_>imMute: I'll limit the supported compressors to gz and xz, for simplicity
15:30<apteryx_>and default to xz
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15:32<@Ganneff>apteryx_: talking about dpkg i recommended #debian-dpkg and https://lists.debian.org/debian-dpkg/
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15:46<vv221>sney, do you remember where you heard about .zstd and .deb?
15:46<sney>no, sorry. probably in here. but it's not mentioned on that man page, so it might have been something else
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15:47<vv221>I work on a .deb packages generator that often builds .deb close to .ar size limit, so a fast compression method would help me a lot ;)
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15:50<sney>haha, maybe your generator should split those packages if xz isn't enough
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15:50<vv221>Well, we’re splitting them already ;P
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15:50<vv221>The source are commercial games, some modern ones are really huge.
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15:51<vv221>The worst offenders being the ones including single files that are >9GB…
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15:51<sney>thicc
15:51<vv221>(so you need to split, build several packages, then cat the file back together through postinst)
15:53<Walex>vv221: you know also that there is 'pixz' for parallel compression too
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15:53<vv221>Walex, does it bring advantages on top of the already parallel `xz -T0`?
15:54<vv221>Here I have this in ~/profile: export XZ_DEFAULTS='--threads=0'
15:54<vv221>And dpkg-deb follows it.
15:54<vv221>Oh, parallel decompression? *This* is a real advantage \o/
15:55<vv221>Can that be used by dpkg when handling xz-compressed .deb packages?
15:56<scorpion2185[m]>I have this problem with yowsup-cli: https://github.com/tgalal/yowsup/issues/2985
15:56<Walex>vv221: the other thing that I suspect is a "wild" idea is that in way of principle files on a ".deb" repository don't need to be ".deb"s.
15:58<vv221>Hmm, you mean we could share e-books or music (on a LAN of course) through an APT repo?
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15:59<Walex>vv221: I am not sure, but a repo is a set of files described by some metadata, and all that 'apt-get download' does is to download both. I can imagine that up to storing it in '/var/cache/apt/archive' the name or content of the files does not matter. Probably.
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16:00<Walex>vv221: then stuff gets handed over to DPKG, but I suspect that most of APT does not ever open a '.deb' file or even check that it has a '.deb' suffix.
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16:02<vv221>I see, there are indeed a couple wild things that could be done with that ;)
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16:03<quadrat>Walex apt still verifies the signature, so it kinda 'verifies' that it's a .deb
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16:04<Walex>quadrat: APT verifies the signature of the metadata files, not of the packages. AFAIK not many packages have internal signatures, and they are checked by DPKG.
16:04<quadrat>ahh, didn't know too well the internals, thanks for clarification
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16:05<Walex>quadrat: the signed metadata files contain the hash of the file, and APT checks that the hash of the downloaded file is the same, but that applies to files of any type or suffix.
16:07<Walex>I even suspect that 'dpkg' just uses '/usr/bin/ar' and one could replace it with something else, that checks the type of the file it is given and uses the real 'ar' or another unpacker.
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16:09<imMute>Walex: it does not.
16:09<imMute>it contains an ar implementation: https://git.dpkg.org/git/dpkg/dpkg.git/tree/lib/dpkg/ar.c
16:10<Walex>imMute: yes, I just checked and it only depends on 'tar' (and "essentials" implicitly)
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16:11<Walex>then one could be even worse and replace 'dpkg' with something with a 32-64b 'ar' implementation :-)
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16:13<Walex>vv221: actually, looking at 'https://git.dpkg.org/git/dpkg/dpkg.git/tree/lib/dpkg/ar.h' the on-disk size is 10 decimal digits and internal offsets and sizes aere 'off_t'.
16:13<Walex>vv221: 10**10 is a pretty large number.
16:14<Walex>https://git.dpkg.org/git/dpkg/dpkg.git/tree/lib/dpkg/ar.h#n50
16:14<Walex>imMute: thanks for the link too
16:14<imMute>why are we considering using apt as a arbitrary file exchange? there are plenty of better options available...
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16:15<Walex>imMute: that was a random thing.
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16:15<Walex>imMute: the problem is building '.deb's for applications that include files with a siye of 9GB.
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16:16<imMute>meh. I think putting files that large in an apt repo is dumb (and I'm even a user of one of the software packages that was used as an example of why that might be desirable)
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16:17<Walex>imMute: actually 10^10 is 8GuB so not that huge.
16:17<vv221>imMute, we have no control on the way the non-free application we package are done ;)
16:18<Walex>imMute: the user worrying about this has game resource files that big.
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16:21<Walex>vv221: the notion that you can put "stuff" not necessarily ".deb"s in a repo I mentioned as a possibility where you have a "main" '.deb' that depends on your huge resource files, maybe big, and then somehow uses APT to download them and then installs them.
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16:22<imMute>vv221: sure, but a 8GiB file is a little absurd no matter how you frame it.
16:22<Walex>vv221: maybe by using "DPkg::Pre-Install-Pkgs" or something.
16:23<vv221>imMute, I fully agree on the "absurd" part ;)
16:23*imMute would actually prefer Xilinx's shit self-extracting-shell-script to having to hack up apt to make it work.
16:23<Walex>imMute: the alternative is to implement a Steam-like downloaded.
16:23<Walex>imMute: there are several games that once installed have 60GB of resource files.
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16:24<imMute>Walex: that's not a single 60GB file though.
16:24<vv221>I think I've mostly seen these huge files in Unreal Engine games, where almost all of the game assets are stuffed into a single file for some reason.
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16:24<Walex>vv221: DOOM style games have **huge** texture resources, it is part of their engine design.
16:25<Walex>vv221: 'man apt.conf' has configurable compression types.
16:26<imMute>if the resource packing is done as part of the engine, there's no reason the engine couldn't add support for "one resource per file" or even more splitting.
16:26<vv221>Right now we provide the three standard compression methods to the end user: xz, gz and none. Passed as-is to dpkg-deb.
16:26<Walex>imMute: game engine companies are not going to bother
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16:27<vv221>Well, most probably someone on the team read somewhere that single file would help performance in some corner case…
16:27<vv221>Since then, they have been doing it as some kind of "cargo cult" ;)
16:27<Walex>vv221: Steam people for example are obsessed rightly with defrag.
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16:28<Walex>vv221: also single files are easier for portability: they are in effect platform independent filesystems.
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17:03<apteryx>vv221: is your deb generator free software by chance? I'd be curious to peek at its sources.
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17:05<apteryx>I'm trying to pack a 23 MiB data.tar.xz file with some other dummy members with GNU ar, and it it's still processing it after like 5 minutes. What the heck? I must be using it wrong.
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17:06<sarnold>vv221: re zstd in dpkg, https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=892664
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17:06<judd>Bug https://bugs.debian.org/892664 in dpkg (open, patch, moreinfo): «dpkg: Please add decompression support for zstd»; severity: wishlist; opened: 2018-03-11; last modified: 2021-01-10.
17:06<apteryx>I invoked ar like so: ar - debian-binary debian-binary data.tar.gz /gnu/store/nrsa72f8a4k1m9k76nvnm2ln105vs301-tarball-pack.tar.gz test.deb
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17:07<apteryx>the control.tar file is missing, my point was just to exercise the basic ar invocation and see how it performs. Horribly it seems.
17:07<imMute>apteryx: that - looks suspiciously like a filename that ar might interpret to mean STDIN, so maybe it's waiting for more input from stdin?
17:08<vv221>apteryx, it's free software of course ;) — https://wiki.debian.org/Games/PlayIt
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17:08<apteryx>its usage string says: ar [emulation options] [-]{dmpqrstx}[abcDfilMNoOPsSTuvV] [--plugin <name>] [member-name] [count] archive-file file
17:09<imMute>apteryx: which argument do you expect "-" to be?
17:09<apteryx>none
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17:10<apteryx>I'm probably doing it wrong. Will experiment with using commands such as q (quick append files to the arhcive)
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17:13<apteryx>vv221: thanks, will have a look :-)
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17:15<imMute>apteryx: you put an argument in there that you expect not to be used???
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17:18<apteryx>hmm, I thought '-' could stand for 'no command/modifier' or 'default behavior'. Seems not.
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17:19<apteryx>based on the expectation that something called ar(chiver) should, well, create archives ;-)
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17:20<Sqrt{not}> apteryx i think it wants the - only to show one of the option letters; if no option letter, then don't put the -
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17:27<imMute>Sqrt{not}: I think it means you can do "-p" or just "p", ie the - is otpional. but a - on it's own makes no sense.
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17:34<imMute>s/I think/I'm pretty sure/; s/otpional/optional/
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18:04<bahamat>I set `ulimit -c unlimited`, so where should core files go when they're dumped?
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18:10<sarnold>bahamat: check out /proc/sys/kernel/core_pattern -- see core(5) for details
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18:21<Sqrt{not}>imMute, yes, that is my guess too
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18:30<somiaj>when listening to music with mpv, it will pause/studder if I say start an application, switch tty's, assuming I need to increase its nice level?
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18:31<somiaj>or maybe it is related to the audio going through the dp as the monintor changes (though just running some apps without chanign tty's cause this)
18:31<somiaj>dp = display port
18:32<sney>also possibly buffer settings, if your music library is on a slow disk
18:32<somiaj>ahh yea, it is on an old 5400rpm disk
18:33<somiaj>how would I increase the buffer from an older disk? man mpv
18:33<bahamat>sarnold: Awesome, thanks!
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18:34<sarnold>somiaj: just to be pedantic and annoying, you'd want lower nice values
18:35<sarnold>somiaj: there's an rtkit thing around somewhere that can automatically set processes into lower nice values or even set them to run with realtime scheduling priorities that might also be helpful
18:40<somiaj>sarnold: ahh nice, I'll look into it, it mostly isn't a problem, I just find the shutter occasionally. Though I think the tty one is due to my monintor switching display modes, maybe I should get some other speakers.
18:41<sarnold>somiaj: that switching ttys is a bit surprising; I wonder if there's something in the kernel that takes a lock for a bit too long
18:41<sney>perhaps one of those home-theatre-in-a-box setups that multiplexes the audio and video, so changing video output doesn't even touch the audio signal
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18:43<somiaj>sarnold: well when I change display modes/resolutions I see the moninitor's ui come up saying something about the display port connection. I assume it is an effect of just changing video modes, maybe it is just the monintor is poorly designed and cycles the audio with this.
18:44<somiaj>and it is only to/from x, just switchign tty's normally is fine
18:44<sarnold>somiaj: ahhhhh, yeah, that kinda makes sense.
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19:51<qrpnxz>vv221, perfect ty
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20:26<elkm>hello
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20:26<sney>hi
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20:35<tia3100>hello
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20:39<jealousmonk>hi! i need to connect to a oracle database at my university but i don't want to use sqldeveloper or sqlplus. do you know some libre alternative in debian?
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20:51<un214>anybody got minecraft 1.17 working yet? It's failing for me in the classloader saying I need a newer version of the native class loader
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20:56<tia3100>works for me, but I am on bullseye
20:56<un214>ah; but current release is buster
20:57<un214>how's bullseye with sysvinit?
20:57<tia3100>Never tried it, so can't tell
20:58<un214>too bad. There's a corner case bug in systemd that the systemd maintainers are blaiming on another package
20:58<un214>it turns out systemd can't handle two nodes under /dev that have the same dev-inode numbers
20:58<tia3100>could you link it? If you know
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20:59<un214>https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=969489
20:59<judd>Bug https://bugs.debian.org/969489 in dmraid (open, moreinfo): «systemd: systemctl can hang up waiting for device nodes that are already mounted»; severity: important; opened: 2020-09-03; last modified: 2020-09-05.
21:00<un214>but that's the bisection point of the real issue not the issue itself
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21:01<un214>the actual problem is systemd gets confused when it gets a device-up notification for a device with more than one node under /dev
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21:02<tia3100>well that is no fun
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21:02<un214>so it's sysvinit until I can finally rebuild this hardware with SSD
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21:05<un214>this hardware's nine years old and it's still keeping up as long as I don't try to install systemd
21:06<frustration>LOGIN LOOP. STUCK. STARTX FATAL SERVER ERROR. CANNOT OPEN LOG FILE. ROOT LOGIN OK. PLS HLP!1
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21:06<sarnold>if I've read that bug report correctly, you might also be able to swap out dmraid for md or zfs or something
21:07<un214>not really; dmraid is using a CMOS battery-backed variable to keep track of which disk had the last write so it knows which way to rebuild the raid array
21:07<un214>mdraid has to seek too much
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21:08<sarnold>ahh
21:09<frustration>I cannot login on Debian on my normal user account anymore, I'm stuck on a login loop. But I can login as root, as I'm logged now. On TTY, using "startx", I got the error message that a log file cannot be opened, but it doesn't exist in the first place.
21:09<raven523>is your drive full?
21:10<sarnold>oh nice guess; check both df and df -i
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21:10<sarnold>namei -l /path/to/log/file might also show you something interesting
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21:12<frustration>raven523: are you talking to me or to un214
21:12<raven523>to un214
21:12<frustration>raven523: :-(
21:12<raven523>wait, no, sorry, I meant to frustration
21:13<raven523>I read wrong. It's been a long day
21:13<frustration>raven523: :-D
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21:14<un214>hey frustration how did you get past the "you shall not IRC as root" filter #debian runs?
21:14<un214>hmmm is /var/log missing?
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21:15<frustration>un214: I did not even know about this rule! It's just that I'm migrating from Debian 9 to 10, and it's easier to just use IRC on the failing Debian 10 than swap disks every time someone suggests a command.
21:15<somiaj>frustration: sometimes a bad .bashrc or similar shell configuration file will make it not possible to log in as that particular user
21:15<sney>oftc webirc doesn't share your system user
21:15<frustration>sarnold: df says I've used 100% of /home. df -i says I have used just 3% of the inodes?
21:15<somiaj>if it is all accounts, myabe some system file
21:16<un214>oh he filled up /home
21:16<un214>that's going to be everybody but root
21:16<tia3100>Yeah, find something to delete or move
21:16<sney>with that inode usage, probably one huge out of control file
21:16<un214>last I checked, console login as a regular user should work
21:17<sarnold>~/.xsession-errors files can grow to *huge* things if you're running the 'right' software
21:18<frustration>un214: I was MV everything to the old small disk with the new OS, and using FSlint to open free space. But seems I lost control, huh?
21:18<un214>almost never mv across disks; cp and rm later
21:18<un214>saves much pain
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21:19<frustration>un214: If the problem is just lack of /home/ free space, does this explains why Firefox behaved strangely before I rebooted and got locked out of the system? It was not showing thumbnails anymore, and was not opening WhatsApp web, and was giving an error that some security program was using it.
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21:20<un214>oh yeah
21:20<somiaj>yea firefox will die a nosiey death if it can't cache
21:20<frustration>un214: why MV is better than CP+RM? I thought MV was just the two together.
21:20<un214>because if the CP fails you have an easier time cleaning up the resulting mess
21:21<frustration>un214: which kind of failing do you have in mind?
21:21<somiaj>any, what if you found the whole disk was corrupted after the mv
21:21<un214>like filling the disk half way through
21:21<somiaj>or only partialy moved, or power outtage, list goes on
21:22<frustration>somiaj: how a power outage would fsck my MV but not my CP?
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21:23<un214>there was a legend of somebody who tried to move his install with mv; resulted in having two disks that couldn't boot because one had no /etc and the other no /dev
21:23<un214>this was before udev so no /dev was pretty fatal
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21:24<Sqrt{not}>frustration, you should get a live-CD system, and boot that, and then manually fix your file systems.
21:24<frustration>un214: I understood! But notice that I was MV just subfolders of /home/ to subfolders of /home/ . No problems with booting, then.
21:24<frustration>Sqrt{not}: I will just free some space right now and see if this works. I'm checking BAOBAB, wait a sec.
21:24<un214>anyway you probably need to get a fat disk and copy all of /home to it as root mount that as /home
21:25<sney>rsync is a great tool for this stuff too, since it checksums and you can run it again to make sure
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21:26<un214>tip for running firefox with no free disk; firefox -private-window
21:26<frustration>un214: well, I'm on firefox. ROOT firefox.
21:26<un214>you know, if it weren't for your broken system I'd tell you to not do that
21:27<un214>it won't be fun when / fills up
21:27<frustration>un214: I certainly would not do that!
21:27<frustration>un214: but I used just 4GB of /, so I still have 20GB until it fills.
21:28<un214>I recall the day where I had to beg for support in #debian-offtopic because I broke pam and couldn't not be root
21:28<frustration>sarnold: after deleting some GB of files as un214 suggested, DF still says I'm using 100% of /home/ . wut?
21:28<un214>there's a 5% reserve only root is allowed to use
21:29<frustration>un214: reserve of what? Of / ? Or of /home ?
21:29<un214>/home
21:29<sarnold>frustration: the usual causes are (a) multiple hardlinks to files (b) files still in use by programs -- thought un214's guess is once again very compelling :)
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21:30<un214>you can tune the reserve with the relatively appropriately named tune2fs; but you might have to unmount it first
21:30<frustration>sarnold: I sure have multiple hardlinks, I was creating them with FSlint before the FS broke.
21:30<un214>it's been a long time
21:30<un214>ah that too
21:30<frustration>un214: I still don't understand how this reserve impacts me right now.
21:30<sarnold>frustration: aha, you may have to find the other copies of the things..
21:31<un214>well if you filled the disk to explosion as root you would actually be at 105%
21:31<frustration>un214: I didn't fill "/", I filled "/home". They are all different partitions on the disk.
21:31<un214>and have to get it down below 100% before anybody but root could allocate any disk space
21:31<frustration>sarnold: of which things?
21:32<sarnold>frustration: whatever it is you want to delete in order to free up space
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21:33<frustration>sarnold: can you please enlighten me about my mistake? Is it a sin to create hardlinks? I guessed it would save disk space, instead of using even more. That was the purpose of using FSlint on the first place. Should I use symlinks instead?
21:34<un214>I use hard links. We don't know what you did to use up so much disk so we can't tell you how to fix it.
21:35<un214>Deleting only some of the links to things won't free any disk
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21:36<frustration>un214: do you see any danger on using MV from "/home" to "/home" subfolders? Or just when MV system files?
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21:37<un214>I use mv intra-partition all the time
21:37<un214>it's only cross partition I use cp and rm instead
21:37<frustration>un214: fine, I've deleted some folders I was sure to not have hardlinked yet, so now I'm using 98% of /home. That should do.
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21:39<frustration>un214: fine, I've deleted some folders I was sure to not have hardlinked yet, so now I'm using 98% of /home. Guess who's back? Tell a friend!
21:39<un214>somebody who needs a new name now?
21:39-!-frustration is now known as rejoice
21:40<rejoice>I love you guys.
21:40<rejoice>Help never failed on this IRC channel.
21:41-!-un214 [~joshua@104.220.91.194] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
21:42<rejoice>Well, now I can finally sleep and rest, and have good dreams about computers. Thank you all very much (all of you)!
21:42<sarnold>rejoice: it's no sin to make hardlinks, they're very handy :) but if you wanted to free up space used by a file with multiple links, you need to remove them *all* before you get any of its space back
21:43<rejoice>sarnold: I understood the second part. That's why I started deleting just the folders that had no hardlinks (yet).
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22:47<sandeep_>hlo
22:48<sney>hi
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22:49<yanking-guacamole>hi
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22:58-!-mode/#debian [+l 955] by debhelper
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23:01<tia3100>hello
23:02<tia3100>What is with 'debhelper sets the channel limit to 955 nicks.(I18N_PLURAL_ARGUMENT_MISSING)' messages?
23:02<sney>the bots here maintain a channel limit to prevent join floods
23:03<sney>the i18n message is probably specific to your client
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23:04<somiaj> -!- mode/#debian [+l 955] by debhelper -- that is what I see, so clients must be handeling the notifcation for the change of modes.
23:05<sney>in hexchat it looks like e.g. --- debhelper sets channel limit to 989
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23:16<themill>also sound like a translation bug in kvirc or konversation
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23:17<tia3100>I use konversation, so it is possible
23:17<tia3100>Also translation for what?
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23:21<themill>"%2 sets the channel limit to %1 nicks." at a guess from what you saw https://sources.debian.org/src/konversation/20.12.1-1/src/irc/channel.cpp/?hl=1736#L1736
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23:29-!-lemontongs[m|gr] is "lemontongs[m|gr]" on #oftc #virt #tor #debian
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---Logclosed Tue Jun 15 00:00:00 2021