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#debian IRC Logs for 2021-06-16

---Logopened Wed Jun 16 00:00:30 2021
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00:07<_zxq9_>don: Replace the keymap file? jp106?
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00:08<_zxq9_>hrm... usually I just select a keymap on install and everything "just works" (I'm also on JP layout).
00:08<_zxq9_>Are you on a desktop install without access to the pointy-clicky keymap change utils?
00:09<don>I have changed the keyboard file to the jp102 also with no change to the action
00:09<_zxq9_>What is your system setup?
00:09<don>which change utils
00:09<_zxq9_>If you're using a GUI system, the system tools handle this really well.
00:09<_zxq9_>If you're on a server setup you'll have to mess with the keymap files.
00:10<_zxq9_>Then I think reload your session to make it have an effect.
00:10<don>I built this system about 5 years ago and have had several versions of linux on it.
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00:10<_zxq9_>The various versions don't care about each other. You're on Debian right now, correct?
00:10<don>I have Buster 10.3 right now I think.
00:11<_zxq9_>OK. Are you using a desktop (window manager, GUI, mouse, etc.) or text console version?
00:11<don>or 10.7 I have done both recently
00:12<_zxq9_>Which window manager are you using? (KDE, Gnome, LXDE, etc)
00:12<don>This is a desktop MSI Z97 motherboard
00:12<don>Gnome
00:12<_zxq9_>Each have i18n tooling that can switch your keyboard layout pretty easily.
00:12<_zxq9_>OK
00:13<don>Dell ps2 keyboard Dell usb mouse
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00:13<_zxq9_>Can you find [System Settings -> Region and Layout] ?
00:14<_zxq9_>There should be a "Layouts" tab in there on Gnome 3.
00:15<_zxq9_>You can add a layout. Put the one you want at the top priority. Apply the change.
00:15<_zxq9_>Once it is applied it should already be working and there will be a little layout toggle thing in the system tray.
00:15<don>i18n command not found. What does it come in
00:15<_zxq9_>i18n is not a command.
00:15<_zxq9_>I'm saying find [System Settings -> Region and Layout] in your GUI options menu.
00:15<_zxq9_>Not the command line.
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00:16<don>ok
00:17<don>what are you looking for in the settings page
00:18<_zxq9_>Region and Layout
00:18<_zxq9_>There should be a "layout" tab or selector section where you can add/remove layouts.
00:20<don>That only changes languages and if I changed I wold not be able to read to get back
00:21<don>Under devices keyboard I did a reset and it did not do any thing either
00:21<_zxq9_>You are looking for keyboard layouts, not system language change.
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00:22<don>under keyboard you can change the keys of some things but not the keypad
00:23<don>under Redion and language i can change the language but not the keyboard layout that i see
00:25<_zxq9_>It should be in there somewhere, but the menu navigation may be unobvious.
00:26<_zxq9_>There is also a thing called gnome-tweak-tool you can install that should call the correct Gnome-specific things to allow you to change the layout (and make it actually take effect).
00:26<_zxq9_>Gnome ignores a lot of standard things for this, unfortunately.
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00:26<_zxq9_>Try `apt install gnome-tweak-tool` and see if it is available as a package. It should be, but I haven't messed with it on actual Debian before.
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00:29<don>gnome tewwk tool not available and also no package in apt
00:29<don>what does it come in
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00:30<penguin_brian>https://packages.debian.org/search?keywords=gnome-tweak-tool - should be in buster
00:31<jm_>gnome-tweaks is the package name
00:31<jm_>but based on its description it's not for that
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00:34<don>no luck with any of that names
00:35<don>I really wish apt had a decent menu list or some thing like that somewhere.
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00:35<don>name with a description
00:36<don>symantic works pretty good too
00:36<_zxq9_>Ah, yeah. `apt search gnome-tweak-tool` shows me the package, saying that name is transitional. And doing `apt search gnome-tweaks` shows me exactly the one jm_ mentioned.
00:38<_zxq9_>don: As far as "just works" kind of things. For me the KDE flavors tend to work a lot better than the Gnome ones for the last several years -- but KDE libs are non-trivial constellations of dependencies, so it isn't something everyone likes. It is nice that it works the same across every distro I use, which is not the case with Gnome.
00:39<_zxq9_>Also, it is "gnome-tweak-tool", not "gnome tweak tool".
00:39<don>I guess tomorrow I will be installing again and I will use KDE again.
00:39<don>yeah ---
00:40<_zxq9_>https://packages.debian.org/ja/buster/gnome-tweak-tool
00:40<don>got that quotes also
00:40<_zxq9_>er https://packages.debian.org/en/buster/gnome-tweak-tool
00:40<jm_>you can install it together with gnome and try it out first, less time wasted
00:40<_zxq9_>apt install gnome-tweak-tool
00:40<Sqrt{not}>don, in the upper right gnome control place, you should have 3 icons that get the control center, and to the left, a place to click for the keyboard?
00:41<_zxq9_>Looks like this is indeed just a pointer to the package "gnome-tweaks".
00:41<Sqrt{not}>or 4 icons for control center.
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00:41<Sqrt{not}>and to the left here, I have "en" and a down-pointing triangle
00:41<penguin_brian>It is possible you might need to run "apt update" first.
00:41<richard_h1>anyone know a filter I can pipe json through, to make it legible to a human?
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00:42<_zxq9_>richard_h1: You mean like pretty printing it?
00:42<richard_h1>yes
00:42<jm_>richard_h1: not anyone, but some of us know about jq
00:42<_zxq9_>If you have Erlang installed, then yes, if not then... I'm *sure* there are tools for it elsewhere.
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00:42<_zxq9_>Like surely there is a Python JSON pp utility.
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00:43<jm_>«| jq» or with older versions it was «| jq -C '.'»
00:43<penguin_brian>My install has json_pp - no idea what it is like though - man json_pp
00:43<_zxq9_>\me runs off to try jq real quick...
00:44*_zxq9_ thinks "whoops"
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00:44<Sqrt{not}>don, if you can find that option I describe, you should see an option "show keyboard layout"
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00:44<don>not sure what you see there
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00:45<Sqrt{not}>don, what do you have in your upper right corner?
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00:46<don>down arrow power sound network symantic accability
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00:46<Sqrt{not}>click the down arrow
00:46<richard_h1>penguin_brian: json_pp comes with perl, and works nicely, thanks :-)
00:47<don>ok bottom left goes to settings
00:48<Sqrt{not}>don, oh sorry, you are reading it right to left? so the last thing left of network
00:48<Sqrt{not}>for me it looks like "en" and another down arrow
00:48<don>not for me
00:48<don>do you have multiple languages setup
00:49<Sqrt{not}>yes, I have 3 languages configured
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00:49<Sqrt{not}>errr, 3 keyboard layouts anyway
00:49<don>thta is where you get that symbol
00:50<don>read about that already. when setting up more lanugages it does not change the keymap file juset uses different ones for lang
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00:51<Sqrt{not}>so, back in the main settings thing, you have a setting called regions and language. that allows you to add keyboard layous
00:51<don>yes but it does not renew the files
00:52<don>it just uses differnt languages if you switch back it is still the same one.
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00:53<Sqrt{not}>when you have multiple keyboards configured in that setting, then you get the extra icon I am telling about, and inside that submenu, you can choose among your configured keyboard layouts, and you can also select "show keyboard layout"
00:54<Sqrt{not}>It seems like that might be helpful for your problem.
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00:55<don>I could probably read UK or canada...Do you think you cold look up the name since you have access to that.
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00:56<don>I tried both but not spelled right i guess so no luck
00:57<Sqrt{not}>when you choose "region and language" from the setup menu, do you see a menu where you can choose input sources?
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00:58<don>yes but had no luck with names to add
00:58<don>at least ones that I might be able to understand
01:00<Sqrt{not}>at the bottom click the + and see a list of keyboards. what name does it give for your current input source? and if you add anything, then you will have the submenu where you can "show keyboard layout"
01:01<don>ok that got a list
01:01<Sqrt{not}>it has something like 6 or 7 flavors of japanese, if that is what you want. other wise just add anything, so you can get to the "show keyboard layout" option
01:02<Sqrt{not}>what name does it give you for your current input source?????
01:03<don>english
01:04<don>canada gets 3 versions of French
01:04<don>Uk gets nothing
01:05<don>I only speak english so am limited
01:06<don>will it switch as soon as I select one
01:06<Sqrt{not}>if you add one, then you will get the layout chooser I am trying to get you to look at. in that chooser you can select what you have now, or what you added, or select "show keyboard layout"
01:07<Sqrt{not}>all this hassle, is me trying to get you to see "show keyboard layout"
01:07<don>ok I added Belgian
01:08<don>now shows two lang eng and belg
01:09<don>no option to see keymap
01:09<Sqrt{not}>don are you still in the control center, add layout? close out, get back to the main desktop
01:10<don>ok
01:10<don>I see the en
01:10<Sqrt{not}>good, please click on it
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01:11<don>I see qnd cqn chqnge to other lqng qnd see the key lqyout
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01:12<don>yep that is the layout I have on this keyboard
01:13<Sqrt{not}>good job. so does it show the correct things on they numeric keypad? or what?
01:13<don>yes it does show what the keys are
01:14<Sqrt{not}>does it agree with what you get when you type those keys?
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01:14<don>on the key side yes but the num pad no it is still not working
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01:15<don>tgjtj
01:16<don>num light on or off it is not typing on the screen
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01:18<Sqrt{not}>if you switch to your belgian keyboard, is the numeric keypad still wrong in that layout?
01:19<don>yes
01:20<don>When I switch and type here still no numbers
01:21<Sqrt{not}>does it show just a gray line under num lock, or is it green? can you change that color with the num lock key?
01:23<Sqrt{not}>don, anyway all I had to contribute was trying to get you to be able to see that keyboard layout view. I don't think I have any more ideas.
01:27<Sqrt{not}>maybe one idea: if you have edited or replaced some of the default keyboard config files, maybe reinstall and come back to this "show keyboard layout" trick, and see if anything is better with pure gnome defaults.
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01:27<Sqrt{not}>Good luck, I am off to naptime for a while.
01:27<don>yes only the numn lock and enter works light changes
01:28<don>thanks sqrt
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01:28<don>the other program still working shows keys by number
01:29<don>thank you all who helped me tonight
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04:01<wyre>why am I seeing strange characters in tty for systemctl status output?
04:01<ratrace>wyre: like what?
04:03<wyre>ratrace, https://i.imgur.com/h0QYE8w.jpg
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04:06<ratrace>wyre: you're missing a sane UTF font it seems. those "weird" characters would be glyphs that represent a tree/hierarchical structure
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04:06<wyre>ratrace, it's a fresh install
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04:07<ratrace>wyre: then your locale is wrong or not set
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04:09<wyre>ratrace, locale is properly configured
04:10<ratrace>wyre: which locale is it?
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04:10<wyre>I've got at the end of the /etc/locale.gen the locale (es_ES.UTF-8 UTF-8)
04:10<wyre>and I've run locale-gen
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04:11<wyre>in fact the locale was enabled by Calamares (accodring the locale.gen file)
04:11<wyre>localectl output also seems right
04:11<ratrace>wyre: and when you run just `locale` it shows LANG=en_ES.UTF-8 and LANGUAGE=en_ES.UTF-8 ? as well as various LC_* ?
04:12<wyre>ratrace, LANGUAGE= is empty
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04:13<ratrace>and sorry, it should be es_ES not en_ES, mybad. es_ES:es for LANGUAGE I supose
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04:13<wyre>right, it's es_ES
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04:13<wyre>but as I've said ... LANGUAGE is not being set properly 😥
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04:14<ratrace>I'm not sure that env would affect the glyphs, but ineed seems wrong, maybe you need to re-login or re-source the /etc/profile
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04:15<wyre>well, I've set multi-user.target as the default target
04:15<ratrace>the default console font definitely does have those glyphs
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04:16<wyre>ratrace, if I start the graphical target I can see the font properly rendered in gnome-terminal 🤔
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04:17<ratrace>not sure what else is needed. the problem you have is related to selection of appropriate glyphs in the default console font
04:17<ratrace>there's console-setup package, do you have it installed?
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04:18<wyre>well, since I've installed from the live iso ... I think I'll reinstall the system from netinst iso
04:18<wyre>It's a freshinstall as I've said
04:18<ratrace>do you have console-setup package installed?
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04:19<ratrace>"fresh install" doesn't mean much on its own, could be wildly different depending on some options selected
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04:19<wyre>yes, but I prefer the netinst media
04:19<ratrace>and methinkgs graycat said a few times that live env does NOT produce the same final installation as regular installation ISOs, or maybe I misunderstood him. there _was_ some problem about using live for installation and it's not recommended
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04:20<wyre>sure 😁
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04:20<wyre>now I'm curious because the netinst media is asking me for the primary network interface
04:20<wyre>and I can see a eno1 from apart enp2s0 and enp3s0
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04:21<wyre>I guess it's a binding interface ... or something like that ... why the kernel is listing it?
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04:21<ratrace>it's possible eno1 and one of the enp* ones are the same ones, just altnames of each other
04:22<ratrace>you can alt-F2 for example and inspect the links and names from the console
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04:22<wyre>I can see the three have different MACs
04:23<ratrace>I thoroughly, absolutely, utterly HATE the faux "predictable" naming scheme. it's everything BUT predicatble. net.ifnames=0 for good old ethX, and then bind the MAC to ethX name if you're affraid of boot disordering them....
04:23<ratrace>wyre: so you have three nics?
04:23<wyre>eno1, enp2s0 and enp3s0
04:23<ratrace>do you have three physical NICs in that machine?
04:23<wyre>and how can I come back to the graphical install? 😆
04:23<ratrace>or is that a VM and someone was trigger happy about virtual NICs? :)
04:24<wyre>ratrace, nope, I just have 2
04:24<ratrace>wyre: alt-F1
04:25<wyre>I can't see the graphical installation, just like xorg-server log
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04:25<ratrace>wyre: maybe it's one of the other TTYs, try F7
04:26<ratrace>alt-F7
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04:26<ratrace>I'd be curious now if you could pastebin the output of `ip a`.
04:26<wyre>but to jump between ttys I have to use ctrl+alt+Fx
04:27<wyre>but yes, it's F5 😁
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04:27<ratrace>ctrl shouldn't be needed from the console, but okay, if for some reason your setup needs that
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04:28<wyre>well, the point is that I just can see 2 physical ethernet ports but the kernel detects 3 nic
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04:30<ratrace>wyre: that does not make much sense unless you're talking about altnames. I've never seen that anyway, that there's 3 separate NICs based on only two physical ones. I'd _really_ love to see the output of `ip a`
04:30<tpo2>I'm experiencing problems with unattended-upgrades hanging calling `shutdown -r 06:00`. The latter seems to be blocking. The system in question is a lxc guest with sysv init. Is that per spec that `shutdown -r 06:00` should be blocking (i.e. not exit)? shutdown's manpage remains silent on that aspect?
04:31<jm_>you can also look in sys, i.e. ls -l /sys/class/net/*/device/driver and other files there
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04:34<tpo2>just checked on a different machine, where `shutdown -r 06:00` will exit. Advice welcome...
04:35<jm_>tpo2: compare dpkg -S /sbin/shutdown on both
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04:36<tpo2>jm_, it's different because one system is systemd based and the other sysvinit-core based...
04:37<jm_>well that might be it, looking at https://salsa.debian.org/debian/sysvinit/-/blob/master/src/shutdown.c it has a sleep loop (line 815)
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04:40<tpo2>jm_ which means that shutdown is actively waiting for the given TIME to arrive I guess, right? However should shoutdown put itself into the background (fork & exec) and thus return?
04:40<tpo2>(without the exec part in the last phrase)
04:42<jm_>tpo2: yes it is waiting. if you look it also prints warnings now and then, with fork+exec that might not work so I suspect it's intentional
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04:44<tpo2>jm_, I've checked on a different non-lxc, sysv system and shutdown is behaving the same there.
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04:45<tpo2>after all these years this behavior is surprising me. Hmmm. Thanks a lot jm_ for assistance <3!
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04:48<jm_>tpo2: yeah I don't think lxc is playing a role here, and no problem
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04:52<wyre>ratrace, jm_ I've just noticed I have 6 physical ethernet ports https://nnz-ipc.kz/files/documentation/advantech/ark-2151v_user_manual_ed_2.pdf (page 14)
04:53<wyre>it's the ARK-2151V-S9A1E
04:54<wyre>so you can see at the beginning of page 15 four ethernet ports
04:55<ratrace>wyre: still waiting for that `ip a` if possible :)
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05:00<wyre>apparently the default user is not in the sudo group! 😥
05:01<wyre>is this in that way for a fresh install or miss I to enable this?
05:01<sep>if you give the rootr user a password then yes.
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05:02<sep>adduser username sudo ; would add the username to the sudo group
05:03<sep>iirc if you do not give the root user a password, it will add sudo and the user to the sudo group. but i allways give root a password, and add the user to the group manually. since it is so simple
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05:03<wyre>sep, I've used usermod -aG sudo <username>
05:03<wyre>but I guess it does the same 😁
05:03<sep>indeed
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05:05<wyre>ratrace, it's just connected the LAN1 port http://ix.io/3q6D
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05:10<ratrace>wyre: that's very much weird thing then. why 3 NICs, and why do they differ in PCI identifier. anyhoo.... you can use eno1 then for the installer, yes?
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05:11<ratrace>wyre: what kind of machine is that anyway? maybe you really do have 3 NICs inside. is that some kind of a router?
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05:17<jm_>is that for some sort of camper?
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05:19<tpo2>Does anybody know an alternative email address for Balint Reczey? His canonical/ubuntu email address is bouncing. Would be kind to DM it to me, thanks!
05:19<wyre>ratrace, yes, I'm permanently using eno1
05:19<wyre>but I'm not sure what nic is attached to what physical port
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05:19<wyre>because LAN1 port apparently works with eno1
05:20<wyre>but you can see the manual https://nnz-ipc.kz/files/documentation/advantech/ark-2151v_user_manual_ed_2.pdf
05:20<wyre>there are 6 physical ports 😥
05:20<wyre>it's a industrial pcbox
05:20<tpo2>I've found it...
05:21<petn-randall>tpo2: https://qa.debian.org/developer.php?login=balint%40balintreczey.hu has two others.
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05:22<tpo2>petn-randall, just seen it as well, thanks a lot!
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05:38<richard_h>hi - I've run into https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=966575
05:38<judd>Bug https://bugs.debian.org/966575 in grub-pc (closed): «grub-pc: error: symbol `grub_calloc' not found.»; severity: grave; opened: 2020-07-30; last modified: 2021-03-12.
05:39<richard_h>this is a remote system; I can see the remote console, but can't easily give it an alternative boot medium.
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05:39<richard_h>any tips on getting it going via the grub rescue shell?
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05:41<richard_h>or it may not be the same; I'm not sure if it's bios or uefi
05:42<wyre>ratrace, I know what's happening, LAN1 physical port corresponds to eno1, LAN2 physical port corresponds to enp3s0 and those 4 POE ports are for enp2s0
05:42<wyre>but I think this makes no sense, because why these front physical ports are different nic while the 4 behind ports are attached to a similar nic than the LAN2 physical port?
05:43<wyre>I'd have used enp2s0 for LAN1 enp3s0 for LAN2 and eno1 for those 4 POE ports
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05:46<jm_>richard_h: if grub console gives you that error then I don't think there's a way arround it without some sort of rescue medium
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05:51<omegatron>it would be quite helpful, if on a page like https://sources.debian.org/patches/mbrola ( and its sub-pages ) would be a link back to the package's page ( https://packages.debian.org/sid/mbrola for example ) ... -_-
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05:55<richard_h>jm_: ouch. Thanks.
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05:55<richard_h>so it's not just looking in the wrong place for whatever it's trying to load?
05:55<richard_h>I get that error every time I try to insmod anything
05:56<richard_h>is there any useful rescue medium that will work as a floppy image (1.44M)?
05:56<richard_h>it appears that if I want to provide a CD image, it has to be provided as a windows share ...
05:57<omegatron>should I send you a copy via snail mail ?
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05:57<omegatron>but before that, I would have to check, if my 286 pc still works ..
05:57<richard_h>omegatron: me? I think that might be a little slow ...
05:59<richard_h>I have, on that network, a not-quite-so-old machine - an Asus eeepc, with 489M free. I guess I might manage a netinst image or similar on there, and set up samba ...
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05:59<richard_h>actually, there's also a NAS there. That might work.
06:00<at0m>knoppix has samba on live image
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06:18<richard_h>at0m: I'm not in the same physical location. I guess maybe I could run samba over the internet? But I'd rather not ...
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06:37<otisolsen70>Reading the documentation for NetworkManager (https://wiki.debian.org/NetworkManager) I see references to a tool called nm-settings. However, this tool is not present on my debian buster. And apt search nm-settings yields no results. How do I obtain this tool?
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06:39<bremner>otisolsen70: man nm-settings suggests you can use nmcli
06:40<petn-randall>otisolsen70: I don't see a tool referenced there. It says "For options in these files refer to the manpage on nm-settings".
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06:40<bremner>iirc, you can also use config files
06:40<petn-randall>otisolsen70: On the CLI you likely want to use nmcli.
06:41<otisolsen70>Oh. It is only referencing the man page for it. I was confused.
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06:57<andre144k>hello all
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06:58<NoGuest17>hello back
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07:01<jm_>richard_h: regarding floppy image, you can create one https://help.ubuntu.com/community/GrubHowto/BootFloppy
07:01<jm_>richard_h: even simpler https://www.gnu.org/software/grub/manual/legacy/Creating-a-GRUB-boot-floppy.html
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07:02<jm_>richard_h: ahh ignore that gnu.org link, it's for old grub - I remember doing it this way in the past
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07:06<otisolsen70>If connected to a wifi AP that goes down or disappears with NetworkManager, how long will NM wait before it tries to connect to the next wifi connection? (ie. scan what wifis available and tries to connect)
07:06<andre144k>i have 2 problems with wayland under gnome3.38 in debian 11 (full patched) on vmware15.5:
07:06<andre144k>1. screen is sometimes flickering with wayland, gnome is sometimes hangig complete.
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07:06<andre144k>2. firefox "rounded corners" from firefox-window looks with wayland broken
07:07<andre144k>with classic xorg both problems fixed... its more for info to developer, then i do need a fix for it....
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07:08<andre144k>wayland is much more snappy in vmware15.5 as guest
07:08<vv221>andre144k, for issues with Debian 11, it would be better to ask for help on #debian-next
07:09<andre144k>vv221, thank you
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07:11<theglitch>Linux MX
07:11<otisolsen70>With NetworkManager, I have defined 4 different wifi networks as system-connections and given them different priorities. NM has then connected to the first one. Then I bring down this wifi and expects NM to then connect to one of the other networks if they are a vailable (they are). But it appearently, does nothing. What could cause this?
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07:14<richard_h>I've managed to mount a virtual CD
07:15<richard_h>and I can boot into the installer (buster netinst) - but when I choose the rescue option, it seems to lock up.
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07:15<richard_h>perhaps it's choosing a different video mode, which I can't see via redirection?
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07:16<richard_h>but maybe the grub boot floppy might be better, if that will let me boot the real system
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07:18<is0ke3>enyc: sent you a dm here. :)
07:19<richard_h>oh - the installer does work. I guess mounting the CD across teh network from an eeePC is just slow :-)
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07:20<enyc>is0ke3: received and replied =)
07:20<is0ke3>enyc: ok. :)
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07:26<EmleyMoor>Still getting nowhere with solving my kodi issue... https://paste.debian.net/1200987/
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07:34<richard_h>so I'm successfully in the rescue system (though I'm not sure whether I should have booted via legacy or uefi - does that matter?)
07:35<richard_h>examples I see online suggest grub-install to /dev/sdx, but my root is on /dev/md0. Do I still need to install to the underlying disks?
07:35<richard_h>and can I tell if I was using uefi or bios?
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07:37<richard_h>fdisk says the disklabel type is dos, which I guess is MBR
07:38<richard_h>so should I grub install to both /dev/sda and /dev/sdb? md0 is sda1 and sdb1
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07:46<jm_>richard_h: if it's uefi, you would have /sys/firmware/efi
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07:48<richard_h>jm_: the machine has uefi. I don't have that directory, presumably because that's not how I booted.
07:49<richard_h>is that ok? Can I tell how I booted previously? Eg by looking in the logs?
07:49<jm_>richard_h: yeah so it's booted in legacy mode
07:49<richard_h>I reinstalled grub to both sd[ab], and it boots and runs
07:49<richard_h>but that was after booting the cd image in legacy mode.
07:50<jm_>I don't think you have EFI with DOS partition
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07:50<jm_>+table
07:50<richard_h>would I have had to change something in the setup to boot the disks with uefi?
07:50<richard_h>ok
07:50<richard_h>actually, I don't think I have an efi partition
07:51<jm_>you can also check which grub is installed, i.e. grub-pc vs grub-efi
07:51<richard_h>grub-pc
07:51<jm_>yeah EFI also needs ESP
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07:52<jm_>all looks OK then
07:52<richard_h>ok. So I probably have what I had before
07:52<richard_h>and it's probably hard to change without a reinstall, right?
07:52<richard_h>all the disks have dos disklabels
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07:53<richard_h>thanks for all your help - looks like it's alive and well :-)
07:53<jm_>not super hard, but it's not trivial either
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08:24<shtrb>what's the debconf21 channel ?
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08:44<joeDoh>shtrb: there isn't a channel specific to debconf21, try #debconf
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08:48<tizef>yes joeDoh, shtrb, many chans for the debconfs, I actually went, but must be patient ? because I feel like very less activity there... hehe, maybe just because I didn't asked anything ?
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08:53<shtrb>thanks joeDoh
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09:06<bentham>Hi all, why is it that when I add an entry to /usr/share/menu and then restart my windowmanager, the new entry does not appear? What does it take to make it appear?
09:07<bentham>(in my case, I'm trying to add an entry for Firefox under Applications->Network->Web Browsing
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09:10<bentham>update-menus does appear to create a proper menu configuration file for my window manager
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09:14<jm_>that's standard practice AFAIK, packages also call update-menus in postinst script
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09:14<bentham>jm_: That matches my understanding. So why does my windowmanager not pick it up?
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09:17<bentham>aha, I think I found the problem. Somehow a local version landed in my home directory when I typed 'update-menus' as a user
09:17<bentham>so that is fixed now.
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09:18<jm_>bentham: right, you can have local and global menu files, window manager probably only looks at global one by default
09:19<bentham>in my case, it looked at the one in my home directory too :)
09:19<bentham>and deleting that one solved the problem.
09:20<jm_>silly me, indeed that makes sense, how else would user override it
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09:20<bentham>It does make sense. Of course, if the user overrides it, and then the system administrator makes changes, then the user will not pick up those changes.
09:21<bentham>At least not without running 'update-menus' manually.
09:21<bentham>I guess it is the whole 'fork and maintain' problem all over again.
09:21<bentham>just on a really small scale.
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09:26<bremner>are those the old debian specific menus, or the newer xdg ones?
09:27<bentham>bremner: huh, I have no idea.
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09:27<bentham>I would guess the former.
09:27<bremner>fwiw, those are deprecated (somehow, I would have to check policy)
09:28<bentham>bremner: how can I tell?
09:28<bremner>https://www.debian.org/doc/debian-policy/ch-opersys.html#menus
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09:29<bremner>so, "desktop entries" are the new hotness
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09:30<bentham>bremner: yikes, well, I'm running a minimalistic tiling window manager with no icons or fancy trays.
09:31<otisolsen70>As I understand, NetworkManager should be able to know about several wifi networks. And then automatically connect to any one of those if they are available? Is this correct?
09:31<otisolsen70>With NetworkManager, I have defined 4 different wifi networks as system-connections and given them different priorities. NM has then connected to the first one. Then I bring down this wifi and expects NM to then connect to one of the other networks if they are a vailable (they are). But it appearently, does nothing. What could cause this?
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09:31<bentham>I rather like the minimalistic debian menus. That said, I like standards and would appreciate having compatibility with the cool kids who run fancy desktop environments.
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09:33<grove>otisolsen70: I use networkmanager, and it automatically connects to the wifi at the office when I'm there, and at home when I'm there
09:33<bremner>bentham: I also use a tiling WM, but I don't use menus
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09:33<otisolsen70>grove, yes. But do you reboot your machine between those places?
09:34<grove>Normally not
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09:34<coc0nut>anyone experienced with ssh-dss ? what is it good for?
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09:34<bentham>bremner: yea, generally I don't either. But it occurred to me that I should be able to share my workstation with others, and it would be nice for them not to have to know a priori what is installed and what is not.
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09:35<otisolsen70>grove, if I start my device and it connects to wifi A. Then that is all fine. Then I bring down wifi A. Now I would expect the debian device to connect to Wifi B that is also available and defined as system-connection. However it does not. I have tried leaving the defice for several minutes. Even an hour. It does not connect to wifi B even though it is avialble.
09:36<bremner>bentham: I just give others their own gnome / xfce session. YMMV
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09:41<killruana>hi
09:42<killruana>I’m using buster, and i try to cross compile a package (ppp) from x86_64 host to armhf target
09:42<killruana>not sure why, the compiler don’t lookup for the "good" headers
09:42<killruana>http://paste.debian.net/1201426/
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09:44<grove>otisolsen70: The office and my home is not close enough that I've been able to test switching quickly, but networkmanager also knows the wifi I can enable on my phone and (although it has been some time since I did it last) it falls nicely over to that (and back) when I enable/disable that
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09:44<ratrace>killruana: do you have libssl-dev installed?
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09:45<otisolsen70>grove, hmm... Strange that it does not seem to work here. How fast does not go? I mean how long from when network is not available before NM tries the next network?
09:45<killruana>@ratrace: I have libssl-dev:armhf. I Also need libssl-dev:amd64 ?
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09:46<ratrace>killruana: doubtful; does the package install /usr/include/openssl/opensslconf.h ?
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09:47<killruana>as you can see in my locate at the bottom of the pastebin, I only have /usr/include/arm-linux-gnueabihf/openssl/opensslconf.h
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09:50<otisolsen70>grove, this is what NM writes in syslog, when Network A disappers while the host is connected.: https://paste.yt/p15270.html
09:50<otisolsen70>grove, after that it just goes to "disconnected" state
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09:58<otisolsen70>grove, I just did nmcli device connect wlan0, it says: Error: Failed to add/activate new connection: A 'wireless' setting is required if no AP path was given.
09:59<otisolsen70>What am I missing?
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10:07<otisolsen70>grove, what does NM do if you plug in an ethernet cable?
10:08<otisolsen70>grove, ehternet is marked as unmanaged here. So I would expect the device to connect to ehternet when cable is plugged in - independently of whatever NM does. Agree?
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10:13<grove>otisolsen70: I don't remember what (if anything) NM does shen I plug in an ethernet cable, but I have to run `sudo dhclient enp0s1f6` before the wired network is properly configured and takes over, and when I unplug the cable I have to manually fix the routes, but I do that so rarely that I haven't tried to find out why
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10:18<otisolsen70>grove, oh. Bummer. I really would like to automate that stuff.
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10:18<otisolsen70>grove, but if I mark ethernet as managad through NM then I guess it should be able to use that as a system-connection profile as well, right?
10:22<grove>I think that is how it is intended to work, yes
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10:29<otisolsen70>grove, I will try that then
10:29<otisolsen70>grove, my wifi adapter is USB. Does NM also handle if I unplug/plugin my wifi adapter?
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10:38<tristero>otisolsen70: NM needs to know which SSID to use when connecting to a new wifi network for the first time. Try "nmcli dev wifi connect <SSID> password <PASSWORD>". Subsequent times should be automatic
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10:42<grove>otisolsen70: I have no experience with USB wifi adapters
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10:43<otisolsen70>tristero, this is not first time. These are 4 pre defined wifi networks.
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10:59<blitz72>⧸ⵑ\ ΤHIS CΗАΝΝᎬL ΗΑS ᎷOᏙED ᎢⲞ ΙRC.ᏞІᏴEᏒΑ.CዘAT #ΗAMRAᎠΙⲞ /ǃ⧹
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11:43<unknow>HiHi there
11:44<unknow>Anyone here?
11:44-!-arnoldoree [~arnoldore@ranoldoree.plus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
11:44<TomyWork>yes, 1015 other people are here
11:44<petn-randall>unknow: Many many people here.
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11:44<petn-randall>Probably the whole list scrolled by as you connected.
11:45<unknow>Whoops, first time here
11:45<petn-randall>unknow: Welcome to #debian! You made it onto the right network. :)
11:45<unknow>I was looking for help about kali, is this the right chatroom?
11:46<petn-randall>!kali
11:46<dpkg>Kali Linux https://kali.org/ is a security/penetration testing distribution from the creators of <backtrack>. It is based on Debian, but is different enough that we don't provide support in #debian. Seek help in #kali-linux on irc.libera.chat or https://forums.kali.org/ . Also ask me about <based on debian> and read https://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/bugs.html
11:46<petn-randall>unknow: This channel is for Debian support. You can find the Kali support channel here. ^^^
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11:46<tgamblin[m|gr]>⧸!⧵ ТᕼΙS СHАNⲚЕᏞ ᎻAЅ MOVΕD TΟ IᎡC.LIBERA․CዘAΤ #HΑMRАᎠIΟ /!\
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11:46<unknow>Ty :)
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12:00<zuhdisdev>hello guys
12:01<zuhdisdev>yes thats kewl
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12:01<zuhdisdev>wassup
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12:11<petn-randall>zuhdisdev: Kali user?
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12:21<cferry>what's is typically required to submit a package to Debian?
12:22<petn-randall>!itp
12:22<dpkg>Intent To Package (ITP) is a Debian <bug> filed against the <wnpp> pseudo-package, to indicate someone is working on packaging a piece of software for Debian. This is done to avoid a duplication of work.
12:22<petn-randall>cferry: Starts with filing a ITP bug, but there are many more steps involved as you're not a DD.
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12:22<petn-randall>!debian-mentors
12:22<dpkg>Find packaging help for the Debian project in #debian-mentors on irc.oftc.net. If the channel is invite-only it's because you missed it being on OFTC.
12:23<petn-randall>cferry: You can ask in here further questions, it also has handy links in the /topic. ^^^
12:23<cferry>Thanks
12:25<ronoaldo>hi! is it possible to configure gnome keyring to unlock when I login on kde?
12:25<ronoaldo>ps: i'm running bullseye
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12:31<cferry>just to clarify: what might be valid reasons to reject a package submission?
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12:34<bremner>licensing is the most common issue
12:34<cferry>would bsd3 be an issue?
12:34<bremner>but also whether the package is of interest to a wider audience
12:34<bremner>no, bsd3 is fine
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12:35<cferry>is having some traction a requiremenet, bremner ?
12:36<bremner>cferry: something like that.
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12:36<cferry>so you look for github activity, eh.
12:36<ratrace>cferry: you can always offer the official debian repo from your infra, many projects do that, and eventually, pacakges from there might be taken and accepted into official repos
12:36<bremner>there's no hard and fast rules
12:37<cferry>ratrace, great, thanks
12:37<cferry>you mean like a .deb release in github? for instance?
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12:37<petn-randall>cferry: Usually, either a DD is willing to maintain it in Debian, or they'll keep an eye out if the maintainer is stable enough. If RC bugs lie around for too long, the package will get eventually removed again.
12:37<ratrace>cferry: I mean like proper repository one can stick into apt sources.list
12:38<ratrace>cferry: in fact, you can have that even if the package gets into main. debian is rather .... conservative.... about releases, so you can offer latest versions for all the supported debian releases
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12:38<ratrace>ideally, you also have a concept of LTS in your versioning
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12:40<cferry>understood, thanks for this information
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12:43<phil_azing>I cannot access DNS via IPv6 but I can ping via IPv6. I can see outbound IPv6 port 53 DNS queries on the firewall external interface but no responses. Any ideas how to proceed?
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12:46<petn-randall>phil_azing: So you can ping the name server, but not access it?
12:47<phil_azing>Yes
12:48<phil_azing>google.com. 274 IN AAAA 2404:6800:4015:803::200e
12:49<phil_azing>64 bytes from 2404:6800:4015:803::200e: icmp_seq=1 ttl=58 time=5.56 ms
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12:52<phil_azing>dig -6 @2404:6800:4015:803::200e google.com gives ;; connection timed out; no servers could be reached
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12:56<ratrace>phil_azing: can you use mtr-tiny and see if the SYN or UDP packages get through, or where they fail at?
12:56<ratrace>compare to the icmpv6 trace
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12:57<vv221>phil_azing, the issue might not be on your side.
12:57<vv221>I get the same timeout here.
12:58<vv221>But my regular DNS server is on IPv6 too, and work with no issue.
12:58-!-thelounge06 [~radu242@pool-141-157-204-247.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat]
12:58<vv221>Are you sure there is supposed to be a DNS server behind 2404:6800:4015:803::200e ?
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12:59<jhujhiti>the paste says AAAA for google.com...
13:00<vv221>Yes, but google.com is not dns.google.com ;)
13:00<jhujhiti>exactly, not ns[1234].google.com
13:01<phil_azing>I tried AAAA one.one.one.one also some time ago but not since I fixed the last config error I found, I will try it again.
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13:02<jhujhiti>cloudflare's v6 resolvers are 2606:4700:4700::1111 and 2606:4700:4700::1001
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13:03<phil_azing>dig -6 @2606:4700:4700::1111 google.com fails too. Maybe my ISP has a problem.
13:04<jhujhiti>... i did not realize there was a .one tld, wow. i assumed that was just a cheeky ptr record
13:05<Sqrt{not}>does it help if you add "-t ANY" to your request?
13:05<phil_azing>mtr -6 google.com looks fine by the way.
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13:05<jhujhiti>phil_azing: the only other thing you could try is direct queries to an address you control and see if they're received
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13:05<jhujhiti>phil_azing: nono, you want mtr --udp --port 53 -6 ns1.google.com for example
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13:09<bouba1>i have some issues with bullseye and atheros, the firmware sems to be not loaded in the network manager, any suggestion?
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13:11<bremner>did you install the firmware?
13:12<bremner>also, which atheros?
13:12<bouba1>yes the official firmware.
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13:13<bouba1>Atheros AR9271
13:13<Sparco>⁄ǃ\ ᎢⲎΙS ϹᕼANΝΕⅬ HAS ΜⲞᏙED TO IRC.LⅠBEᎡA.CΗAT #HAⅯRᎪDΙO /!\
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13:14<bremner>!ath9k
13:14<dpkg>ath9k is a completely free (no proprietary HAL) Linux kernel driver supporting PCI/PCIe 802.11n wireless LAN devices with Atheros chips. It does not require firmware from userspace. See https://wiki.debian.org/ath9k for more information and supported devices. For Atheros 802.11n USB device support, ask me about <ath9k_htc>, <carl9170>.
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13:14<phil_azing>"mtr --udp --port 53 -6 ns1.google.com" is broken, no display, but I see "time exceeded in-transit" packets on the firewall external interface. That gives me a tool to track down the issue. Thanks for the help.
13:15<bremner>bouba1: is that a USB device?
13:15<bouba1>dpkg the probleme is reported.
13:15<dpkg>okay, bouba1
13:15<bouba1>yes bremmer
13:15<bremner>bouba1: so did you install firmware-ath9k-htc?
13:15<jhujhiti>phil_azing: i would not be surprised to find some silly isp blocking it. i take it that v4 dns to those addresses is fine? (because there are isps that just block dns that isn't to their resolvers)
13:16<bouba1>tplink wn422g
13:16<bouba1>i m gonna try this one firmware-ath9k-htc
13:16<bremner>yes
13:17<phil_azing>Yes, IPv4 works. It will be a firewall problem somewhere inside my site. So far I have fallen for two traps for beginners.
13:18<phil_azing>1. If you want IPv6 make sure you have a IPv6 /etc/network/interfaces stanza.
13:19<bouba1>is weird because the interface can be used by scripts but not by network manager applet?
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13:21<phil_azing>2. startup=0 in /etc/defaults/shorewall6 did not stop shorewall6 starting on reboot of stretch
13:21<bouba1>i can use my interface by wpasupplicant and dhclient but not by network manager.
13:22<phil_azing>Not running network manager. This is a vm simulation of a clients firewall upgrade from jessie>stretch>buster
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13:22<ratrace>bouba1: if it's defined in /etc/network/interfaces, NM won't touch it by default
13:23<bouba1>ratrace yes is defined there.
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13:24<bouba1>####?
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13:26<bouba1>in the past i have made same manipulation over the mtu.
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13:33<bouba1>ratrace, +1 now the interface is working.
13:35<bouba1>i have another issue with xfce, when it goes in sleep mode i can't unlock my screen?
13:36<bouba1>now im in jwm joe's window manager.
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13:41<phil_azing>I just noticed that "tcpdump -i eth1 -vv ip6 and port 53" on my firewall differs for IPv6 from another vm.
13:42<phil_azing>The problem vm shows "[bad udp cksum 0xc688 -> 0x4203!] 48102+ [1au] A? google.com. ar: . OPT UDPsize=4096 (39)"
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13:43<phil_azing>The working vm shows "[udp sum ok] 18053+ [1au] A? google.com. ar: . OPT UDPsize=4096 (51)"
13:44<phil_azing>Is there an issue with IPv6 UDP checksums under stretch?
13:44<phil_azing>The working VM is buster.
13:44<sunkan>phil_azing: Probably due to HW offload checksumming, it can be enabled on VMs too in some cases. Try "ethtool -K ethX tx off" and see if that changes anything. It is probably not really anything wrong, just that the checksum is not correct because the NIC will do the checksumming.
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13:47<mxlnx>hey
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13:48<phil_azing>The tcpdump is on my edgerouter 4 so it should be the same for both source vm I would think. It may be nothing as you say. I know that UDP checksums are optioal but I was not sure that was true for IPv6
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13:58<jhujhiti>yeah, that's just checksum offloading. if you disable offloading with ethtool the errors will go away (but it will be slower, so don't bother)
13:58<imMute>jhujhiti: it sounds like the tcpdumps are done on the receiving device, so the checksums should be valid by the time they get there
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14:00<jhujhiti>rx offload is a thing
14:00<imMute>jhujhiti: what is rx offload?
14:01<bahamat>imMute: It's when the hardware handles the receive strips off some bits and hands the rest to the OS. It necessarily causes the checksum to change, resulting in invalid checksums. It doesn't mean there's an actual problem.
14:02<jhujhiti>any offloads that happen on receive, ethtool -k <intf> | grep rx. checksum offload being the cause of this
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14:02<imMute>odd. I woudln't think there would be any benefit to having the hardware stop off parts of packets. maybe process checksums and drop the packet on invalid checksums, but that's not whats happening here.
14:03<jhujhiti>yes, the fact that they can see the packet in tcpdump is proof that the checksum on the wire is correct
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14:03<jhujhiti>the nic is just mangling the field
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14:03<bahamat>Because it significantly reduces load on the CPU, especially under high load.
14:03<imMute>jhujhiti: wouldn't promiscuous mode turn off the part of the HW that drops the packet if the checksum is invalid?
14:04<jhujhiti>no, promiscuous mode just stops it from dropping things that aren't destined for it
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14:05<imMute>pretty sure I just tested this in the lab a couple weeks ago. packets weren't making it up to the OS until I turned on TCP dump, and the packets had invalid checksums (they were ethernet checksums, not L3 or L4 though)
14:06<jhujhiti>ethernet fcs failures are dropped by the nic, i'm not aware of any way to receive them
14:06<jhujhiti>because an fcs failure could mean the frame is so badly mangled that it can't be parsed
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14:07<imMute>jhujhiti: I just said that running tcpdump causes them to get delivered to the OS. for that one hw/os combo anyway. in my case the transmitting hardware (an FPGA) simply wasn't calculating/inserting the FCS, so it was never correct.
14:09<jhujhiti>there's actually an ethtool flag for it, rx-fcs
14:09<jhujhiti>disabled and unchangable on my nics
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14:11<jhujhiti>anyway, but that's not promisc mode
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15:04<urk>How pracitcal is it for me to migrate the current stable release to Bullseye RC-2 without making a mess? I don't have wireless capability with the current stable release (kernel 4.19), and plan on taking a long distance trip in a few days. Can I downgrade without making a mess to kernel 5.10? Or would it be better to do a reinstall?
15:05<Linux-Fan>urk: Would it help to install a kernel and firwmare from backports? Alternatively you could of course upgrade to bullseye but I would not advise downgrading that later.
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15:07<jmcnaught>!downgrade
15:07<dpkg>Downgrading is not, nor will ever be supported by apt. Programs change their data in a way that can't be rolled back, and package maintainer scripts support upgrades to new config file formats but not downgrades. Try: "dpkg -i olderversion.deb" or "aptitude install package=version" using "apt-cache policy package" to get the old version number. See also <partial downgrade>, <unstable->testing>, <sdo>.
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15:08<shtrb>urk instead of downgarde you can have kernels side by side
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15:08<blast007>urk: did you mean to say downgrade or did you mean upgrade?
15:08<shtrb>urk, you can install 5.10 from backports now and see if does the job for you
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15:11<Sqrt{not}>urk, you can also upgrade normally from buster to bullseye; you don't need RC-2, just use the normal upgrade instructions.
15:12<Sqrt{not}>dselect, buster->bullseye
15:12<dselect>In /etc/apt/sources.list, change "buster" to "bullseye", change "bullseye/updates" to "bullseye-security" on the security line; remove lines like buster-backports, debian-multimedia <dmo>, and other 3rd party repos as they are known to cause issues. apt update && apt upgrade && apt full-upgrade. We're close to release so bullseye isn't a <moving target>. Please report upgrade bugs and serious problems with packages.
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15:21<urk>Sqrt{not}: Yes, I can upgrade normally, but that won't be until RC-3 is replaced with the official stable release.
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15:22<urk>shtrb: With respect to backports, I already have them, and kernel 5.10 is not getting picked up. Here is my sources file http://paste.debian.net/1201456/
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15:23<Linux-Fan>To use a backported kernel, it has to be installed explicitly.
15:23<shtrb>urk ^
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15:23<urk>How practical is it to install kernel 5.10 side by side with my current kernel 4.19 until RC-3 is replaced with the official Bullseye stable release?
15:24<Linux-Fan>urk: Very practical :) Foreget about the "RC-3", that is an installer-only thing AFAIU
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15:24<shtrb>urk, very
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15:25<jhutchins>urk: Because linux was basically started by kernel developers, the ability to boot to different kernels has always been important.
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15:26<urk>dselect: so you are recommending no Bullseye backports support at this time?
15:26<dselect>urk: I think you lost me on that one
15:27<jmcnaught>urk: dselect is a bot
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15:27<Sqrt{not}>deselect, bdo kernel
15:27<Sqrt{not}>dselect, bdo kernel
15:27<dselect>Newer kernels for Debian stable releases are available from the <buster-backports> repository. After modifying your sources.list, run «apt update». To install the current backported kernel: «apt -t buster-backports install linux-image-`uname -r|sed 's,[^-]*-[^-]*-,,'`». To list available backported kernel image packages: «aptitude search '?narrow(~nlinux-image,?origin(Debian Backports))'».
15:28<Sqrt{not}>urk, you can take the backport kernel, that is fine.
15:29<Sqrt{not}>urk, by default you have the option to boot into previous kernels, unless you have changed that option on purpose
15:29<jhutchins>urk: Backports are testing packages rebuilt to run on stable.
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15:37<urk>So if I take the backport kernel, will this automatically be upgrade to stable when the final stable Bullseye is released?
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15:38<Sqrt{not}>urk, only if you do the upgrade from buster to bullseye
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15:48<Sqrt{not}>urk, a manually installed backport kernel will not automatically upgrade itself.
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15:49<vv221>Sqrt{not}, what do you mean by "manually"?
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15:49<@Ganneff>install the linux-image-amd64 from backports, not the versioned one directly
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15:50<vv221>If installed through the buster-backports branch of the repos, it should be kept up-to-date.
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15:52<urk>Sqrt[not]: Do I need to do anything more than enter sudo apt dist-upgrade?
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15:52<Sqrt{not}>urk, that is not correct
15:52<Sqrt{not}>urk, I thought you said you do not want to upgrade to bullseye?
15:53<urk>Sqrt[not]: I probably want to upgrade to Bullseye, but want to make sure that it won't create problems for access. I am highly dependent on access for our reservation system.
15:53<Sqrt{not}>urk, do you have scrollback to see what was written earlier in this channel?
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15:54<urk>Sqrt{not}: I do, and also made notes of commands recommended by dselect.
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15:54<Sqrt{not}>OK, good. dselect gave 2 different instructions, one for upgrade to bullseye, and one for just taking a backport kernel.. your choice
15:54<vv221>If your system is critical for some activity, a full upgrade to Bullseye before the release notes are available does not sound very sensible ;)
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15:55<vv221>A Bullseye → Buster rollback is doable, but if you’ve never done that you can expect to spend several *days* on it.
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16:00<Sqrt{not}>urk, just taking the backport kernel is safer, because grub should give you a choice when you boot, to use a previous kernel version --- in case you have any problem with the backport kernel, you can just go back. But if you do the full upgrade to bullseye, it is very hard to go back
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16:02<urk>Sqrt{not}: Will I still have access to data using your method? Also I am not sure I completely understand the differences between the commands needed for taking the backport kernel as opposed to doing a full upgrade? Were the commands mentioned by dselect a full upgrade?
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16:03<Sqrt{not}>urk, yes your data files should not be affected by these upgrades.
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16:04<Linux-Fan>urk: The difference between backport and full-upgrade is that with the backport you keep using your current sources.list and only install the newer kernel. Other packages are not upgraded. If you take the full-upgrade route, you would have to edit your sources.list for bullseye and then upgrade the entire system.
16:04<Sqrt{not}>for the upgrade to bullseye, if you look in the scrollback, the command suggested included " apt update && apt upgrade && apt full-upgrade" The commands for the backport were in a different message
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16:48<swift110>sup folks
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16:56<realtime-neil>What's a good tool to use to parse the fields of a Debian *.changes file?
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16:57<urk>Sqrt{not}: I have reread the messages posted earlier today, including those from dselect, and they all appear to only have instructions for upgrading my distro to Bullseye instead of downloading from Backports. This is assuming I understood what I read. What is the exact command for downloading the latest kernel from Bullseye without upgrading the kernel that I have?
16:57<RoyK>realtime-neil: perl? ;) I guess there are something made for that, though
16:58<realtime-neil>RoyK: okay, noted. I'm not the best at it, but I can make do in a pinch.
16:58<sarnold>realtime-neil: python3-debian
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17:02<jmcnaught>!bdo kernel
17:02<dpkg>Newer kernels for Debian stable releases are available from the <buster-backports> repository. After modifying your sources.list, run «apt update». To install the current backported kernel: «apt -t buster-backports install linux-image-`uname -r|sed 's,[^-]*-[^-]*-,,'`». To list available backported kernel image packages: «aptitude search '?narrow(~nlinux-image,?origin(Debian Backports))'».
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17:05<jmcnaught>An alternative to the command in <bdo kernel> that will also upgrade firmware and linux-headers- packages (it's a long one): aptitude -s -t buster-backports install "~i(~nfirmware|~nlinux-[a-z]+-$(dpkg --print-architecture)$)"
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17:20<compfy>i'm going to automatically unlock zfs encrypted devices with the keyfiles located on the zfs encrypted system, is /usr/local/etc/keys a good location for storing keyfiles on the zfs encrypted disk? encryption keys for external hdds are available after unlocking zfs encrypted computer with installed system
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17:24<sarnold>compfy: yeah that seems reasonable enough to me
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17:26<compfy>sarnold, you mean it's a good location? sry my english is bad
17:26<compfy>*meant
17:27<RoyK>it's ok
17:27<sarnold>compfy: yes, that's a good enough location; /etc/ is a better location but that can be hard to use with typical zfs deployments. /usr/local/etc is far easier to use with typical zfs deployments
17:27<compfy>thx
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17:55<Zero>Hello? Anyone there?
17:56<sney>hi
17:56<dreamer>nope
17:56<sney>nobody here but us chickens
17:57<dreamer>over a thousand nobodies here
17:57<sarnold>shhh we were sleeping
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18:01<Zero>Can anyone recommend good Linux distros for Boomers?
18:01<RoyK>Boomers?
18:02<Zero>You know, grandpas. Old people.
18:02<Zero>People that can barely understand what a file is.
18:02<dreamer>you mean kids?
18:03<lad>boomers, not zoomers
18:03<RoyK>dreamer: kids learn everything rather quickly ;)
18:03<Zero>Kids come out of the womb understanding what the Network stack is.
18:03<dreamer>that only know how to swipe?
18:03<dreamer>RoyK: but they only know how to swipe
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18:03<RoyK>Zero: ubuntu, perhaps? the gui is rather neat
18:03<RoyK>dreamer: no
18:03<lad>what about linux mint
18:03<Zero>Yeah actually my nephews are pretty tech illiterate. It's sady.
18:03<vinumsv60>Elementary OS
18:04<dreamer>what about Pop!_OS ?
18:04<jmcnaught>Why not Debian?
18:04<dreamer>it's for your pop
18:04<RoyK>jmcnaught: indeed
18:04<Zero>Elemnentary, that's a good one. I'd say Ubuntu, because it's robust, but I think noobs need a simple taskbar start button gui akin to Windows XP and Windows 7.
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18:04<dreamer>really they just need a kiosk-mode with only a webbrowser, no?
18:04<RoyK>Zero: you get that with debian too
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18:05<sarnold>chrome os?
18:05<Zero>Yeah pretty much. Firefox with Java script for web apps.
18:05<RoyK>windows 95?
18:05<lad>Microsoft Bob
18:05<WizardGed>Zero: it depends on your definition, for some you might choose something with sugar desktop ordepending on what desktop they are used to mate/kde setup to look like windows
18:05<Zero>Can you install Chrome OS for free? Is that OSS? Do they made it available?
18:05<dreamer>my mom doesn't know how to use a desktop computer (even though she has had one since the 90s). these days she does everything on her iPad
18:06<dreamer>as long as I don't have to give any support I'm fine with that :#
18:06<RoyK>chromeos isn't free
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18:06<quadrat>Zero there is chromiumOS
18:07<tia3100>dreamer: It is amazing how user friendly these touch devices has become
18:07<vinumsv60>or Try Zorin Core, which tries to looks close to Windows
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18:07<tia3100>Or at least, fool proof
18:07<Zero>One killer feature I really like on Windows is Windows Remote Assistance. Is there anything like that on Linux? Something where she can invite me to take over her computer over the Network?
18:07<dreamer>yeah kind of. she's behind like 3 generations, but doesn't really care
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18:08<dreamer>every couple years she'll get a new second-hand one to upgrade (mostly because support for the old one is dead)
18:08<jmcnaught>My father is a boomer and he installs Debian, Manjaro etc himself. Old doesn't mean can't learn anymore.
18:08<dreamer>whatever. she can send emails, browse the web and watch movies
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18:08<dreamer>jmcnaught: yeah for sure. there's a big range of computer literacy across all age groups
18:09<RoyK>Zero: I'd start out with some modern distro, like debian or ubuntu and see if that works
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18:09<tia3100>Zero: You can set up something manually, like script that starts ssh server so you can connect to it, you can set it up with zerotier so you don't have to think about ip, and then just add candy icon on desktop for such script
18:09<RoyK>perhaps swearing in church now, but I prefer ubuntu on desktop/laptop - works a charm - but never on a server :þ
18:09<Zero>I blame the MS designers. They made computing so easy with their GUI's hiding away all the complexity, that noobs barely understand anything about how anything actually works.
18:10<Zero>All they know is how to click through a sequence of menus. And they have zero underlying understanding that allows them to improvise.
18:10<RoyK>Zero: did you ever try MacOS 9? ;)
18:10<tia3100>Zero: I had opposite issue with MS, they started removing some options and broke some of my devices, that is they woldn't work how I wanted, and I had no other way of changing settings
18:11<Zero>If Ubuntu had a KDE 3 maybe. But they drank the tablet UI kool aid and that shit's unusable.
18:11<tia3100>But common users don't need and shouldn't have to need to know any underlaying complexity
18:11<tia3100>Not all are interested in such things, and only find it a nusance. But it is good to have option to see such things if needed
18:11<Zero>Tia3100: I'm kinda a noob too though lol. I'm not a Linux admin expert by any stretch...
18:11<RoyK>Zero: kubuntu has kde
18:12<tia3100>Zero: There used to be a joke in universities where they would call 70 year old professors their best students
18:13<Zero>Great! Well I got a bunch of suggestions. I'm gonna try to familiarize myself with Linux Lite, and then these other ones.
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18:13<RoyK>Zero: better choose something modern if the hardware is modern enough
18:13<Zero>I should write down this chat channel. Where the hell am I? I just wandered in here from a default Linux Distro configuration.
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18:14<Zero>No, this machine is a real POS. 4GB Ram.
18:14<tia3100>Maybe you should go for #debian-offtopic, if you aren't really intersted in debian it self
18:14<RoyK>Zero: #debian @ libera.chat
18:14<tia3100>Since this is #debian channel after all
18:14<RoyK>and yes, #debian-offtopic would be better
18:14<RoyK>erm
18:14<RoyK>sorry
18:14<RoyK>not libera
18:14<RoyK>OFTC
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18:14<Zero>Well most of those suggestions are forks of Debian are they not?
18:14<tia3100>Oh no
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18:15<RoyK>my fault
18:15<tia3100>THey change default configurations
18:15<tia3100>So if you have issues they might not be analogies in debian it self
18:15<tia3100>Also they tend to add stuff to them as well, so you can't expect exact help for your issues here
18:16<tia3100>Since they could be that distro specific
18:16<jmcnaught>!why debian
18:16<dpkg>Debian strives to maintain your freedom whilst also paying close attention to the technical aspects of making a great OS. Debian is stable, upgradable and well tested. See also http://www.debian.org/intro/free http://www.debian.org/intro/why_debian http://people.debian.org/~srivasta/talks/why_debian/ . As an added bonus, you get to ask questions in #debian.
18:17<Zero>So Debian is a "specific" distro? And not a broad category?
18:17-!-flappy [~flappy@88-113-152-7.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:17<jmcnaught>Yes
18:17<jhujhiti>there is debian and debian-derived
18:18<Zero>And Debian proper, would NOT be a good a noob distro, in your opinion?
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18:18<tia3100>Debian-derived distros use base debian and work from there. Like Ubuntu is, then you get pop-os that is derived from ubuntu
18:19<jmcnaught>Debian is not more difficult than any of its derivatives, except for the non-inclusion by default of non-free firmwares, which is easy to work around (use an installer that has firmwares)
18:19<tia3100>Healthy debian use requires some documentation reading from time to time
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18:19<tia3100>And yeah, lack of non-free firmware is not that problematic, but for those that don't know how to use documentation get stuck on it
18:19<Zero>I'm curious, when they fork a distro, do they "freeze" the codebase at the time of the fork? Or do they go back every now and then and incorporate new features from their old fork parent?
18:19<RoyK>Zero: debian is a good distro ;)
18:20<dreamer>Zero: typically it's rebranding. sometimes repackaging
18:20<tia3100>Ubuntu uses snapshots of debian testing every 6 months with some of their own bug fixes
18:20<dreamer>tia3100: and random sid and experimental
18:20<tia3100>Actually I think it there is way more they do, just that I don't know
18:21<Zero>So, yes the do a little bit of reincorporating code after a fork. Right?
18:21<dreamer>usually it's not a hard fork so much
18:21<dreamer>take devuan, which is a "fork" of debian
18:21<dreamer>they re-package debian and remove systemd dependencies from everything that has it
18:21<Zero>Interesting.
18:21<RoyK>Zero: IMHO debian is one of the best distros out there. The only issue with debian, is that it's rather conservative, prioritising stability over functionaliry. That is also a big plus, at least if you want to setup a system for your grandma and don't want to fiddle with it for some years. The bad thing is that it won't support the newest stuff and so on, but again, for the general grandma, it'll work well,
18:21<dreamer>but it still tracks debian very closely
18:22<RoyK>for years
18:22<tia3100>RoyK: My issue with debian are some bugs that don't get fixed once they hit stable
18:22<tia3100>If they require version bump it won't happen, since it is required by version stability
18:22<RoyK>tia3100: I haven't seen much of that. What sort of bugs are these?
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18:23<tia3100>I had couple, some odd radeon gpu bugs and some DE issues
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18:23<RoyK>tia3100: but obviously, I understand what you're saying. Even RHEL has started rolling out newer software for its 'stable' releases now
18:23<tia3100>They aren't often, but can happen
18:24<tia3100>As you have said they prioritise stability over functionality
18:24<tia3100>I understand appeal to it, but sometimes it goes a bit too much
18:24<RoyK>yes, and in 99% of the cases, that is good, but in the last 1% (or perhaps a bit more), it's not that good
18:24<RoyK>but then, there's backports
18:24<Zero>Well I should probably boot back to Windows now. Can anybody tell me the "url" for this specific chat channel?
18:24<tia3100>Issues happen when there are no backports for such packages
18:25<tia3100>I have heard of few times when a package got to stable in half broken state and never got fixed
18:25<tia3100>I don't know which one, but happend a long time ago
18:25<tia3100>Also was some fringe one, that nobody used to test at all as well
18:26<tia3100>I mean, if therea re no testing it can't be known, once it gets frozen it is too late
18:26<RoyK>Zero: you'll need an irc client and connect to irc.oftc.net and then /join #debian
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18:26<sarnold>Zero: probably ircs://irc.oftc.net/debian will work if you've got an irc client on windows; if not, there's a webchat link at the top of https://www.oftc.net/ if you just want something 'easy', you'll want to join #debian
18:27<Zero>RoyK: Thank you.
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18:27<RoyK>Zero: http://xchat.org/windows/
18:27<Linux-Fan>tia3100: One example that comes to my mind because I actually use the program: https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=940536
18:27<judd>Bug https://bugs.debian.org/940536 in dhex (closed): «dhex: hangs on keyboard config screen»; severity: grave; opened: 2019-09-16; last modified: 2020-11-10.
18:28<Zero>What does "OFTC" stand for?
18:28<sarnold>Open and Free Technology Community
18:28<RoyK>!oftc
18:28<dpkg>OFTC is the Open and Free Technology Community, a support/collaboration service. They have an IRC network: irc.oftc.net. You may (or may not) be connected to OFTC's network. http://www.oftc.net/ See also <freenode>, <oftc move> and <fact sharing>.
18:28<Zero>nm, I think I found it.
18:28<Zero>Cheers! thanks for the chat.
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18:29<sarnold>no, !oftc is the Open and Free Technology Community, a support/collaboration service. They have an IRC network: irc.oftc.net. You may (or may not) be connected to OFTC's network. http://www.oftc.net/ See also <libera>, <oftc move> and <fact sharing>.
18:29<sarnold>dpkg: no, !oftc is the Open and Free Technology Community, a support/collaboration service. They have an IRC network: irc.oftc.net. You may (or may not) be connected to OFTC's network. http://www.oftc.net/ See also <libera>, <oftc move> and <fact sharing>.
18:29<dpkg>sarnold: okay
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18:31<RoyK>'You may (or may not) be connected to OFTC's network.' ?
18:31<jhujhiti>sarnold: nice :)
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18:31<sney>RoyK: the bot is also in the libera channel, so those people are not connected to oftc
18:32<sarnold>or they may be connected via matrix bridges to who knows where and bridged with who knows what :)
18:32<RoyK>sney: ah
18:32<sney>sarnold: ffr, remember to put <reply> at the beginning of a factoid, so dpkg doesn't insert one of those "well I guess my notes say that..." things. also you don't need the ! when addressing the bot directly. and you can do sed-style replacements with =~
18:33<jmcnaught>sarnold: also I think you created a '!oftc' factoid instead of changing the 'oftc' one
18:33<sarnold>sney: *argh* :) I thought the "foo is..." at the start of the response meant the non-<reply> form was fine here. bugger. did you already fix this up?
18:33<sarnold>hahahaha
18:34*sarnold falls over
18:34<sney>yeah I got this one
18:34<sarnold>thanks sney
18:34<sney>dpkg: literal !oftc
18:34<dpkg>"!oftc" is "the Open and Free Technology Community, a support/collaboration service. They have an IRC network: irc.oftc.net. You may (or may not) be connected to OFTC's network. http://www.oftc.net/ See also <libera>, <oftc move> and <fact sharing>."
18:34<sney>haha jmcnaught is right
18:34<sney>dpkg: forget !oftc
18:34<dpkg>i forgot !oftc, sney
18:35<RoyK>I don't think mentioning that you're connected to OFTC is relevant, though
18:35<RoyK>it's more confusing
18:36<RoyK>especially when the bot doesn't know from which network it gets the question
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18:42<sney>then it's a good thing the humans are here to clarify
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18:56<jhutchins>RoyK: Well, it's significant, because the factoid is the same whether you're on oftc or on (now) libera. It's the same bot, it doesn't know where you are.
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18:58<jhutchins>RoyK: cf: spoonfeeding
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20:17<tia>For some reason it said my nick is already in use, and even after disconnecting nick is still in the list
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20:18<tia3100>okay back
20:18<tia3100>Odd thing
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21:17-!-blaklistd is "blaklistd" on #debian
21:17<felipe>hola
21:18<somiaj>!es
21:18<dpkg>Este canal es de soporte técnico en Inglés para Debian. Si prefiere que el soporte sea en Español, puede ingresar en #debian-es tecleando /join #debian-es en la línea de chat. - https://lists.debian.org/debian-user-spanish/
21:18-!-j_f-f [~quassel@mail2.snct-dialer.de] has joined #debian
21:18-!-j_f-f is "J\xF6rg Frings-F\xFCrst" on #debconf18-taiwan #debian #debian-xfce #debian-ubuntu #debconf-miniauditorio
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21:25-!-lad is "lad" on #debian
21:28-!-_Matth_ [~Matth@s203.ALPHA-e18.vectant.ne.jp] has joined #debian
21:28-!-_Matth_ is "realname" on #debian #debian-next
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21:29-!-quarkyalice is "realname" on @#quarky #debian-offtopic #kernelnewbies #debian #alpine-offtopic #alpine-docs #alpine-devel #alpine-linux #asahi-re #asahi-gpu #asahi-dev #asahi #postmarketos-lowlevel #postmarketos-offtopic #postmarketos-porting #postmarketos-mainline #postmarketos-devel #postmarketos
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21:31-!-Roman3349 is "Roman3349" on #debian-sponsors #debian
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21:34-!-overholts is "overholts" on #debian
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21:37-!-xylo is "xylo" on #debian
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21:38-!-overholts is "overholts" on #debian
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21:39-!-sidmo__ is "sidmo" on #debian-next #debian
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21:50-!-sevu is "realname" on #moocows #debian
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21:53-!-dvs is "realname" on #debian
21:54<RoyK>somiaj: I beleive a greeting in another lauguage shouldn't be sufficient to throw an !es at someone
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21:57-!-mtlben is "Ben" on #debian #fdroid
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22:06-!-_Matth_ is "realname" on #debian-next #debian
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22:11-!-Meli is "meli" on #osm-sotm-ct #osm-it #libreboot #fdroid #debian-social #debian #debian-next
22:11-!-boistordu is "realname" on #debian-live #debian-nginx #debian-offtopic #debian-qemu #debian-raspberrypi #debian-ubuntu #debian-xfce #dri-devel #gentoo #freenode #gfortran #haskell #hackerspaces #guardianproject #gstreamer #help #ifupdown-ng #java #llvm-build #mitmproxy #NetBSD #netdev #oftc #OpenBSD #openjdk #php #postgresql #pulseaudio #python #Qubes_OS #redditprivacy #tor-onions #tor-project #ubuntu #virt #virtualization #voidlinux #wayland #xfs
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22:16-!-testi is "Dietrich Helexien" on #hardware #debian-next #debian @#roccat #docker @#xrdp
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22:21-!-banc is "banc" on #debian
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22:25-!-hkz_ is "hkz" on #debian
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22:27-!-CeBe is "Carsten Brandt" on #debian
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22:27-!-liquidsnake is "liquidsnake" on #linux #MXLinux #debian #retroshare
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22:36-!-solitario is "Adrian Immanuel Kieß" on #debian-next #debian
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22:39-!-solitario is "Adrian Immanuel Kieß" on #debian-next #debian
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22:45<Pio>/!﹨ TዘIᏚ CHАΝNЕL HАᏚ ΜOᏙΕD TО IᎡᏟ.LΙᏴΕRΑ․CHAT #HAMRAᎠІO ⁄!\
22:45-!-Pio is "Pio" on #virt #oftc #tor #debian
22:45-!-Pio [~Pio@37.21.42.8] has quit [autokilled: spambot. Dont mail support@oftc.net with questions (2021-06-17 02:45:16)]
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22:46-!-is0ke3 is "is0ke3" on #debian
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22:46-!-bonto[m|gr] is "bonto[m|gr]" on #virt #oftc #tor #debian #debian-openstack-commits #quodlibet #python
22:46<bonto[m|gr]>/﹗﹨ ᎢHIS CᎻAΝⲚЕL HΑЅ MⲞVED ΤО ⅠRϹ.ᏞΙBΕᖇΑ.ⲤΗΑᎢ ﹟HᎪⅯRᎪDIΟ /!⧹
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22:47-!-mukti is "mukti" on #debian
22:48-!-solitario3 [~adrian@www3.kiess.onl] has joined #debian
22:48-!-solitario3 is "Adrian Immanuel Kieß" on #perl #open-source-java #lyx #linuxfriends #java #irssi #debian.se #NetBSD #OpenBSD #debian-tech #linux.de #debian-next #debian
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22:53-!-avatar4d is "Unknown" on #debian
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22:53-!-nuc_ is "realname" on #debian
22:53-!-solitario3 [~adrian@www3.kiess.onl] has joined #debian
22:53-!-solitario3 is "Adrian Immanuel Kieß" on #perl #open-source-java #lyx #linuxfriends #java #irssi #debian.se #NetBSD #OpenBSD #debian-tech #linux.de #debian-next #debian
22:57-!-xylo [c55663548b@125.236.225.172] has left #debian [Error from remote client]
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23:01-!-RadSurfer is "RadSurfer" on #virt #oftc #tor #debian
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23:01<RadSurfer>/ⵑ\ ᎢHIS СHAΝNЕᒪ HAᏚ ΜΟVEᎠ ᎢО ΙᎡⲤ.LIΒERΑ.CHAТ #HAMRАDⅠO /!∖
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23:03<sevu>They never stop, do they …
23:08-!-mode/#debian [+l 990] by debhelper
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23:09-!-vorian is "beep" on #debian
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23:12-!-iateadonut is "purple" on #debian
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23:12-!-is0ke3 is "is0ke3" on #debian
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23:14-!-Brainium is "brainium" on #debian-social #linux #virt #C #tor-project #debian-br #debian-kde #debian
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23:28-!-dub_a3 is "dub_a" on #debian
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23:36-!-xylo is "xylo" on #debian
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23:42-!-newtons is "newtons" on #debian
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23:42-!-jlsantos_ is "jlsantos" on #debian-next #debian
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23:45-!-netx is "netx" on #debian
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23:45-!-hkz is "hkz" on #debian
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23:46-!-CutMeOwnThroat is "realname" on #debian-offtopic #debian #bwhpc
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23:47-!-z-nexx is "z-nexx" on #ceph #virt #tor #debian #debian-devel-br #i2p #apertium #pax #ceph-orchestrators #aqi-data-share #debian-next #freenode #suse-peeps
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23:54-!-stylesen_ is "stylesen" on #debian #debian-india
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23:59-!-pavlushka [~pavlushka@00021abb.user.oftc.net] has joined #debian
23:59-!-pavlushka is "Pavel Sayekat" on #debian #oftc
---Logclosed Thu Jun 17 00:00:00 2021