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#debian IRC Logs for 2021-07-04

---Logopened Sun Jul 04 00:00:56 2021
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03:08<jason1237>is there a release of debian without systemd ? soon or later, with openrc or other?
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03:11<rudi_s>jason1237: No
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03:11<jason1237>can it be made running with openrc somehow?
03:11<tia3100>hello
03:12<tia3100>has anyone used preload?
03:12<tia3100>deamon that prefetches binaries to memory
03:12<rudi_s>jason1237: It's packaged (at least in sid) so it might work. But it will be a lot of work to configure it for each service.
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03:25<ratrace>jason1237: sure, you can install sysvinit-core and progressively replace systemd as PID1 and process manager. I'm not sure you can get rid of libsystemd0 entirely, but that doesn't matter I think. alternatively, consider running devuan, the debian fork dedicated to no systemd.
03:33<NoGuest17>morning debians
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05:01<krumelmonster>I had accidently deleted my /boot partition. Now I reinstalled thw two installed linux-image versions, base-files and did an upgrade-grub. Am I fine? tree boot: http://ix.io/3rTV
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05:03<rudi_s>krumelmonster: Reinstall the boot loader. If you use grub (it looks like you do) run grub-install /path/to/disk
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05:09<krumelmonster>that is `sudo grub-install $(findmnt -n -o SOURCE --target /boot)`, rudi_s
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05:14<krumelmonster>(I forgot the question mark^^)
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05:15<rudi_s>krumelmonster: Without the partition I think. You install to a disk.
05:15<rudi_s>(Not sure if it works with the partition as well, but IIRC it must be the disk.)
05:16<rudi_s>TIL findmnt
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05:20<krumelmonster>failed for the partition with an obscure error message and worked with the disk, thanks. I actually (used to?) know these things, I just wanted to make sure I didn't break this system last night and I just woke up ;)
05:20<krumelmonster>I got in a bit of panic last night when I realized that unattended upgrades had failed for some time because /boot was full. I added ExecStartPost=purge-old-kernels to the unattended upgrade service file now. I do have a monitoring for these unattended upgrades but they didn't inform me about failing upgrades because apparently `/usr/lib/apt/apt.systemd.daily install` exits with 0 even if updates where not installed; I will have t
05:20<krumelmonster>his as well now :S
05:23<rudi_s>np
05:23<rudi_s>Yeah, monitoring for full disks is nice to have. Helps catch these kind of errors.
05:24<rudi_s>Just in case you could prepare a rescue-system on an USB stick before rebooting.
05:24<rudi_s>*assuming you have phyiscal access
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05:26<krumelmonster>I don't have physical access at the moment, I will reboot in a few days when I'm there. I'm pretty confident this will be fine but yeah, I'll have a thumb drive with me.
05:30<krumelmonster>And yes, I should also monitor for full disks which I'm not. What I tried to monitor for was unattended upgrades failing but that seems to be impossible because the unattended upgrade script always returns 0 for the "install" action and it won't even print any error messages if the VERBOSE environment variable is not set to a number greater than zero. These seem like really bad choices.
05:32<rudi_s>Yeah, that sounds bad. Maybe file a bug report? It should definitely report failed installations.
05:32<rudi_s>(Especially grub updates are dicy in this regard.)
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05:47<Tj>krumelmonster: when I'm rescuing systems like that, before a reboot I use a virtual machine to boot the system to ensure it is OK (using kernel command-line "init=/usr/bin/bash" so the rootfs remains read-only and no /etc/fstab is read). That is sufficient to ensure GRUB is working as expected
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06:29<wijnen>Is it possible to set up X so that my tablet pointer device is used for gromit, while the mouse is used for controlling everything else? Using instructions from gromit-mpx I can move the tablet to a different device, which gives me 2 pointers. That's good. But it also still uses the pen to focus windows and such. I don't want that. Is there a way to tell the window manager (I suppose) that it should not look at the new pointer device?
06:29<wijnen>I'm using xfce.
06:31<RoyK>smells like https://xkcd.com/963/ ;)
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06:32<wijnen>Haha, yes. :-) Which is why I'm hoping it's a setting in the window manager. ;-)
06:33<wijnen>What I think might exist, is a setting in there that says "use this pointer". But I didn't see it so far.
06:34<wijnen>If it's just something that xfce doesn't support, but some other wm does, I'd consider switching as well.
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06:37<krumelmonster>Is there any ready for use solution to get mail notification when a disk runs full?
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07:22<bodiccea>I have a question about mime types for shell scripts. https://wiki.debian.org/ShellScript says that "shell scripts mime type is nowadays text/x-shellscript but other systems may still use application/x-shellscript". If so, why /usr/share/mime/globs associates "*.sh" to "application/x-shellscript" ?
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07:24<grawity>krumelmonster: for servers it's usually part of monitoring software such as zabbix
07:25<grawity>krumelmonster: otherwise, cronjob: @hourly usage=$(findmnt -no USE\% / | sed s/\%//); if [ $usage -gt 97 ]; then df -h | mail -s "Disk / is $usage\% full" root; fi
07:26<krumelmonster>grawity: zabbix seems overkill, I don't need a ui, I think
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07:41<Guest1452>hi
07:41<tia3100>hello
07:41<Guest1452>how are you ?
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07:44<Guest1452>hey
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07:46<tia3100>annoyed by odd bug that I don't know how ti diagnose
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07:48<petn-randall>!ask
07:48<dpkg>If you have a question, just ask! For example: "I have a problem with ___; I'm running Debian version ___. When I try to do ___ I get the following output ___. I expected it to do ___." Don't ask if you can ask, if anyone uses it, or pick one person to ask. We're all volunteers; make it easy for us to help you. If you don't get an answer try a few hours later or on https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/ See <smart questions><errors>.
07:49<petn-randall>tia3100: ^^^
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07:55<britho>What's a good package to use that comes with [alert] sound bytes? ~/.config/hexchat/sounds is empty and would like to configure it.
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07:57<britho>So far I've just copied /usr/share/sounds/freedesktop/stereo/* to ~/.config/hexchat/sounds/
07:57<britho>Maybe that will be sufficient enough
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08:01<petn-randall>britho: symlinks would probably do the job, too.
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08:02<britho>petn-randall, indeed. More efficient :)
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08:04<britho>sudo ln -sF does the trick, unless there is a better method.
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08:26<bodiccea>britho, why the "F" in "ln -sF" ?
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08:27<britho>Symlinks directories
08:27<britho>same as -d I believe
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08:29<bodiccea>britho, -F/-d is for "hard-linking" directories. I would avoid that, and just symlink it with "-s".
08:30<britho>@bodiccea, Ah yeah, read too quickly, missed the hard link part. :) Thanks
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09:16<Ganonk>hello all
09:16<Ganonk>who is online now?
09:17<petn-randall>Ganonk: Do you really want all 970 people to respond to this?
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09:18<Ganonk>hahahah
09:18<petn-randall>;)
09:18<petn-randall>!ask
09:18<Ganonk>i want to some ask about syntax on debian 10
09:18<dpkg>If you have a question, just ask! For example: "I have a problem with ___; I'm running Debian version ___. When I try to do ___ I get the following output ___. I expected it to do ___." Don't ask if you can ask, if anyone uses it, or pick one person to ask. We're all volunteers; make it easy for us to help you. If you don't get an answer try a few hours later or on https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/ See <smart questions><errors>.
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09:23<Ganonk>how to adduser with /home/g/guest and group users ?
09:25<Ganonk>i use "adduser --gid 100 guest" ,, and result /home/guest with group users. i want "guest" in /home/g
09:26<amacater>adduser --home will allow you to specify a home directory - man adduser
09:27<amacater>Is that an NFS mount?
09:27<Ganonk>no
09:27<Ganonk>only /root
09:28<amacater>adduser --home --ingroup might be the options you need
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09:29<RoyK>useradd -m -d /home/g/guest -g users
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09:30<RoyK>so in a script
09:30<RoyK>user=guest
09:30<RoyK>useradd -m -d /home/${user:0:1}/$user -u users
09:31<Ganonk>like this for example = https://i.vgy.me/A40K3K.jpg
09:31<RoyK>Ganonk: see above
09:31<RoyK>erm
09:31<Ganonk>ok , i try
09:32<RoyK>useradd -m -d /home/${user:0:1}/$user -u users $user
09:32<RoyK>username was missing on the first one
09:32<RoyK>you can run this directly from the commandline. just set user=somthing before running the above command
09:32<Ganonk>wait , i try
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09:35<deb>Hey guys I booted into Debian 11
09:37<dvs>!prize deb
09:37*dpkg gives deb a medal.
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09:37<deb>[FAILED] to start virtualzation deamon , LSB: exim Mail Transport Agent, Wait until snapdbis fully seeded, Snap deamon
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09:38<deb>dpkg: whats the point of life ?
09:38<dpkg>deb: are you smoking crack?
09:38<amacater>Using Snap rather than Debian's own exim? You may be entirely on your own here.
09:38<deb>So what Am I suposed to do
09:39<deb>Can I change exims ?
09:39<amacater>First of all: You are using Debian's packages? Uninstall the snap and just use Debian exim which comes as default mail server
09:39<amacater>dpkg-reconfigure exim4 as root equivalent might do it.
09:40<amacater>If you're trying to mix, say, snaps from Ubuntu on a Debian 1 system you are REALLY on your own.
09:40<amacater>!frankendebian
09:40<dpkg>When you get random packages from random repositories, mix multiple releases of Debian, or mix Debian and derived distributions, you have a mess. There's no way anyone can support this "distribution of Frankenstein" and #debian certainly doesn't want to even try. Ask me about <reinstall>
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09:43<deb>Ok but how can I get a terminal ?
09:43<deb>Should I boot in *advanced
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09:43<deb>Ctr +alt + f4 got it
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09:56<ratrace>deb: why are you using the snap?
09:57<RoyK>Ganonk: http://paste.debian.net/1203376/
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10:07<sychill>is it possible to have wpa_supplicant manage wifi, and have systemd-networkd manage the wired connection
10:07<sychill>?
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10:08<petn-randall>sychill: Sure, but why not use the already existing solution?
10:08<sychill>the docs seem to imply that I have remove /etc/network/interfaces
10:09<sychill>petn-randall: what do you mean already existing? my wired network is not setup, but wifi is
10:09<RoyK>then the question is: What do you gain by moving to systemd-networkd?
10:09<sychill>https://wiki.debian.org/SystemdNetworkd
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10:09<petn-randall>sychill: Depending on how you installed, it's either configured by ifupdown, or network-manager. Both are great tools for the job.
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10:10<petn-randall>sychill: Is this a desktop installation?
10:10<sychill>well, i don't have to use systemd-networkd, but this doc implies its the new direction (as opposed to legacy): https://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/debian-reference/ch05.en.html#_gui_network_configuration_tools
10:10<sychill>sychill: by desktop, do you mean gnome? I'm using Sway
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10:11<sychill>s/sychill/petn-randall
10:11<petn-randall>sychill: With desktop I mean any GUI, so gnome/kde/xfce/etc.
10:12<amacater>I think, if you let other tools manage your interfaces, /etc/network/interfaces becomes largely redundant. On a minimal system, I tend to use Network Manager and nmtui to configure, for example - and they will pull in wpasupplicant.
10:12<petn-randall>sychill: In that case I'd stay with network-manager. Which is also what the doc you linked suggests.
10:13<sychill>i used debootstrap to install, and so I installed wifi before I had a GUI in place. I'm happy with wpa_supplicant & prefer not to be dependant on a gui
10:14<amacater>nmtui is good :)
10:14<petn-randall>sychill: wpa_supplicant is a very low-level tool, which is cumbersome to use if you ever want to switch the Wifi AP.
10:14<sychill>i'm experimenting with sway, but it's not x11 and doesn't have a control panel. I don't know if network manager is compatible with sway, but I guess i'd rather avoid network manager
10:15<petn-randall>sychill: Most desktop evironments have moved to wayland, yes.
10:16<petn-randall>sychill: and I'm 100% sure that network-manager is compatible with sway.
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10:18<ratrace>xorg only programs would still run under xwayland
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10:19<sychill>there's a chicken egg problem here. When using debootstrap and a CD which excludes Sway, it's better to install the network before the gui. Once I have the gui setup, it'd be disruptive to then switch to network-manager
10:19<petn-randall>sychill: By default network-manager will configure every network device that is not listed in /etc/network/interfaces, so it's pretty much plug and play.
10:19<sychill>i'm not eager to destroy the wpasupplicant setup, which is more versatile (not gui-dependant)
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10:20<amacater>sychill: Install a minimal system: install network manager which will pull in, say, nmtui. Use nmtui to replicate your normal setup and then install the GUI.
10:21<sychill>amacater: the problem with that is that minimal system is limited to GUIs that have won the popularity contest
10:21<amacater>On something like a Raspberry Pi / Pine64 SBC, that's what I do because I know that it will take care of all the rubbish for me :)
10:21<sychill>the network had to be installed /before/ Sway
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10:21<amacater>So, install minimum system - without gui AT ALL. Command line only. Install nmtui. Then install Sway and dependencies
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10:22<amacater>To be honest, if you can avoid wifi to install and install via Ethernet, thats a good and reliable way to go
10:22<petn-randall>sychill: Everything you can do with wpasupplicant you can also do with network-manager. In fact, n-m depends on wpasupplicant.
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10:22<sychill>the docs didn't mention nmtui.. i was i'd known about that
10:23<sychill>there's something not right about that. WPA supplicant *needs* /etc/network/interfaces, while in the past when I used network-manager it had no stanza for wifi in /etc/network/interfaces
10:24<petn-randall>sychill: network-manager is a service, not a GUI. Though it has GUIs you can use with it.
10:24<sychill>so if network-manager needs wpasupplicant, that would mean network-manager needs /etc/network/interfaces
10:24<petn-randall>sychill: wpasupplicant does not need ifupdown.
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10:25<petn-randall> /etc/network/interfaces is the main config file to ifupdown.
10:26<sychill>if so, that must be undocumented. the wpasupplicant config process in the wiki doesn't make ifupdown optional
10:27<sychill>wpasupplicant was also failing for me initially, until I updated /etc/network/interfaces
10:28<petn-randall>sychill: ifupdown is one sensible way to use it, but it's not a requirement.
10:29<petn-randall>sychill: ifupdown and n-m are two ways to (dynamically) configure network interfaces and save some state about them. While the latter does a much better job with that.
10:29<sychill>i've seen wpasupplicant & network-manager cause me hell in the past, as if they were fighting for control or something. My memory on that is vague though
10:29<petn-randall>sychill: The advantage of ifupdown is that it is /very/ simple and thus quite robust, but only works well for static network setups. Which IMHO makes it unsuitable for laptops.
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10:38<ratrace>petn-randall: not quite. it's possible to roam by specifying the wpa_supplicant to the iface stanza, instead of full config
10:38<ratrace>the wpa_supplicant *config
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10:40<dpat>Hey! How to install Recommends after a package has been installed with the option APT::Install-Recommends "false" (with apt)
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10:42<dpat>I tried `apt install --reinstall -o APT::Install-Recommends=true $PACKAGE` but that did not do the trick... Any tipps? Thx!
10:42<sychill>back when I was using Lenny, I preferred wpasupplicant because it also served as an AP password manager, which trivialized system migrations and not having to re-enter passwords, and also being able to tell someone what a password is. Something about it became a pain in the ass that forced me onto n-m in the end. I was recently welcoming trying wpasupplicant again
10:42<ratrace>dpat: by installing them directly. if you can't remember, you can use apt-rdepends to list Suggested or Recommended dependencies
10:43<sychill>i installed n-m just now, just for the ethernet, and it seems to be working alongside wpasupplicant-managed wifi
10:44<ratrace>on debian, wpa_supplicant is installed with several services so one can have a single service and use its roaming modes, or use systemd remplated units to de/activate specifically named networks
10:44<ratrace>*templated
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10:44<petn-randall>ratrace: Sure, and ifupdown also allows for "logical" interfaces. But IMHO it's not very user friendly. You have to type out the interface config, and you can shoot yourself in the foot it you remove interface config without bring the interface down first.
10:45<ratrace>petn-randall: yes but what I mean, you shift the wifi network configs outside of ifupdown
10:45<petn-randall>s/foot it/foot if/
10:45<petn-randall>ratrace: Ah, ok.
10:45<ratrace>you just specify which wpa_supplicant.conf path to use, for that NIC, and then the conf you can have multiple networks with roaming priorities
10:46<petn-randall>sychill: n-m allows you to see the cleartext passwords, too.
10:46<dpat>ratrace: So I have to run apt-mark auto manually afterwards? No better way?
10:47<ratrace>dpat: you don't. just apt install somerecommendedpackage; like a regular package installation. it's immediately manual
10:47<ratrace>btw if you install recommended packages automatically (with --install-recommends) iirc they're still manual
10:48<dpat>ratrace: ahh.. thx for the info and your help!
10:48<ratrace>no problemo
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10:51<dpat>ratrace: oh, one more question: how to remove the recommends packages with the "original" package then (if they are not set to auto)?
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10:53<ratrace>dpat: I'm not 100% sure they're not auto, I _think_ they're manual because I've seen many times they wouldn't appear in autoremove lists, and I think the only way is manual deinstallation. I never really bothered to investage deeper. I always run without install recommends and install them consciously, manually.
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10:54<sychill>would be nice if n-m would maintain a /etc/wpa_supplicant/wpa_supplicant.conf file, so we could add an AP in the GUI or in that config file, and not have to choose
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10:56<sychill>kind of like in round-trip engineering, where someone might not know how to model code in UML, they can write the code and re-gen the model.. and other times they can add something to the GUI model and generate the code skeleton
10:57<sychill>let the human decide on the fly whether to use the GUI or the text
10:57<sychill>on a case by case basis
10:58<dpat>ratrace: hmm. ok. maybe I find some motivation to investigate it myself :) thx!
10:58<ratrace>sychill: enter netplan.io for one yaml file to rule them all
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11:00<sychill>looks like a good approach
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11:02<ratrace>it's installable on debian, if that works for you
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11:15<Kolusion>Hi all
11:15<Kolusion>I am looking at the changelog for Postfix
11:15<Kolusion>https://launchpad.net/debian/+source/postfix/+changelog
11:16<Kolusion>For version 3.1.6-0+deb9u1, it states "Superseded in stretch-release on 2018-03-10"
11:16<Kolusion>Does this mean that is the date 3.1.6-0+deb9u1 was released?
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11:16<amacater>!v.postfix
11:17<Kolusion>Come again?
11:17<amacater>I was trying to check available versions of postfix - wait a minute :)
11:18<Kolusion>Oh ok
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11:18<Kolusion>You will have to forgive my ignorance of commands, I haven't used IRC since 2005 when the girls were on it before MySpace. :)
11:19<ratrace>,v postfix
11:19<judd>Package: postfix on amd64 -- jessie: 2.11.3-1+deb8u2; stretch: 3.1.15-0+deb9u1; stretch-proposed-updates: 3.1.15-0+deb9u1; buster: 3.4.14-0+deb10u1; bullseye: 3.5.6-1+b1; sid: 3.5.6-1+b1
11:19<amacater>9.0 was released on 2017-06-17. It looks as if 9.4 - so fourth point release was 2018-03-10 so it was maybe corrected then
11:19<amacater>https://wiki.debian.org/DebianStretch
11:20<amacater>Thanks ratrace :)
11:21<Kolusion>The official version was realesed in June 2017. Does that mean Debian users needed to wait 9 months for it?
11:21<amacater>Probably not - we would have backported some security fixes.
11:21<ratrace>Kolusion: if you're asking what I think you're asking, then yes, newly released software is not introduced into stable release for the lifetime of that release.
11:21<Kolusion>Yeah, because that version was for a security fix.
11:22<ratrace>but yes, it may be backported from -next
11:22<Kolusion>Nah, I am trying to figure out how fast Debian backport security updates
11:22<ratrace>there are, however, some exceptions during point releases, some software may bump up
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11:22<Kolusion>REALLY?
11:22<Kolusion>What exceptions have there been in the past?
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11:23<ratrace>chromium; linux kernel rebases to newer upstream LTS point release; firefox-esr upgrades when previous version goes EOL. otoh
11:23<ratrace>you can check release notes for more info
11:23<amacater>It depends, security fixes are published pretty much daily. If there are really major problems, you may find packages get version bump. For a few packages, it's accepted that we can't backport security fixes so keep up with upstream esp Firefox
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11:23<Kolusion>A Ok.
11:24<Kolusion>I'm considering FreeBSD vs Debian. I am leaning towards Debian at the moment because I like that Debian freezes packages. I don't want to be constantly having to check for new configurations in new versions.
11:25<Kolusion>FreeBSD pointed out a valid point though, I would be depending on Debian to backport security fixes. That is why I am trying to find out how fast Debian have backported security fixes in the past.
11:25<amacater>So - if you keep a machine up to date, you get security fixes as they come out. Point releases (including media) are once every three months or so and roll up all security fixes into point release
11:26<ratrace>depends on teh fix, impact and importance of the package
11:26<amacater>So: 10.9 was about three months before 10.10, for example
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11:27<ratrace>sometimes it's aligned with same day upstream release day / embargo ending; sometimes it takes days; sometimes it takes months; and some security fixes are never backported, if they're deemed low importance / impact
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11:27<amacater>You will find that, for example, where a fix has been embargoed, that normally Debian folks have been involved in fixing during the embargo and the release is available immediately
11:27<Kolusion>REALLY?
11:28<Kolusion>WOW
11:28<Kolusion>Never backported.
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11:28<wwilliam>when using diff -y --supress-common what a | means in the output?
11:28<amacater>It depends on the package.
11:28<Kolusion>What is an embargo?
11:28<ratrace>Kolusion: it's when distros/researchers/companies are aware of a vuln, and of the fix, but nobody may speak publicly until the embargo deadline expires.
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11:29<Kolusion>Oh I see....
11:29<ratrace>it's usually coordinated so everyone involved release their fixes on the same day
11:29<amacater>Embargo - usually where a security fix is known but held back for 90 days or so to allow varios distributions to catch up e.g. some Google Project Zero fixes
11:29<Kolusion>Gentleman agreement
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11:29<ratrace>EXCEPT OpenBSD
11:29<Kolusion>LOL what do you mean except FreeBSD?
11:29<ratrace>they don't care about embargoes, they commit fixes when they see fit, so now nobody is telling them there's vulns :)
11:29<amacater>OpenBSD is its own animal and Theo has his own views
11:29<Kolusion>LMFAO
11:29<ratrace>Kolusion: Open, not Free
11:29<Kolusion>Yes :)
11:30<Kolusion>FreeBSD don't fix, they just update to a new version.
11:30<ratrace>yes. inlcuding all the breaking features
11:30<Kolusion>Yes I have noticed the massive mentality. I saw one thread where a Debian older timer calling THEM old timers! That is a sight!
11:30<Kolusion>https://forums.freebsd.org/threads/how-to-ensure-security-updates-in-a-fleet-of-servers.79977/
11:30<ratrace>but sometimes patches are backported. depends how big the change is and what's available person power
11:31<Kolusion>I am with the Debian old timer.
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11:32<Kolusion>I probably shouldn't use that term in here. lol :)
11:32<amacater>Debian does have a security team. Older Debian releases under LTS will also be fixed, where possible. If you choose to pay Freexian, you can get extended LTS for even older versions. So you do see people talking about stable / oldstable / oldoldstable.
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11:33<amacater>or Debian 10 /Debian9/Debian 8 today
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11:34<Kolusion>I am now really worried how Debian does not backport all security issues. If I select FreeBSD, I will always have security issues fixed, but at the expense of more admin work. Now I have to take this into balance.
11:34<Kolusion>I'm guessing it comes down to manpower.
11:36<amacater>It comes down to manpower, it comes down to expertise, it comes down to how easy it is to fix. Occasionally on point releases, you will find removal of packages where upstream have announced no further support or where backporting is not feasible. For Firefox and Chrome, the compromise made is to update to the upstream versions and not to try and backport fixes, for example.
11:36<ratrace>Kolusion: don't be so sure of that :) https://media.ccc.de/v/34c3-8968-are_all_bsds_created_equally
11:36<jhujhiti>https://www.debian.org/security/2008/dsa-1571 this is why some projects like freebsd choose to upgrade to maintainer-supported versions rather than encourage their own package maintainers to patch things
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11:38<jhujhiti>the BSDs also own most of the code in their base OS
11:38<amacater>If you were around then, you'd note how fast that one was fixed - there were fixes and a separate package to check for vulns inside a couple of days
11:38<Kolusion>Ah, I don't care about thing's like Firefox, I care about things like Postfix and Apache where I would constantly need to keep track of the changelog to see if I have to go and make configuration changes. I would like the latest Firefox.
11:38<Kolusion>Going to read those two pages now...
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11:39<jhujhiti>many server packages in the BSD packaging systems support multiple version trains of the upstream package
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11:41<Kolusion>Yes, but a different version for different release.
11:41<jhujhiti>no
11:41<Kolusion>Could you please show me.
11:42<Kolusion>Or tell me the package.
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11:42<ratrace>aaaaand, not here please :) this is debian support chan ;)
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11:43<ratrace>bottom line, vulns get fixed relatively fast in debian. RCEs get fixed with more importance and speed, than local exploits, but that's all in general. sometimes, around release freeze dates, things may.... slip.
11:44<Kolusion>Yes, it is concerning.
11:44<ratrace>there's no distro or software project immune to that.
11:44<Kolusion>Incorrect, FreeBSD is immune because they are always the latest.
11:44<ratrace>if you run security sensitive environments, be prepared to stay on top of vulnerability announcements and patch things _before_ your distro does
11:45<ratrace>Kolusion: that's simply untrue
11:45<amacater>You will find that quite a few of the packages are also team maintained
11:45-!-dpat [~dpat@213-47-44-84.cable.dynamic.surfer.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
11:45<amacater>So there's more than one maintainer.
11:45<jhujhiti>the thing debian (and many linux distributions) get right in this regard is that their security team own vulns in packaging
11:45<Kolusion>Yes it might be true, but looking at software I will be using, such as Postifx and Apache, they are up to date.
11:45<ratrace>even though they bump versions insteadd of backporting patches, that may happen late, or never, or until someone raises a bug report
11:45<Kolusion>Yes
11:45<Kolusion>I see it all
11:46<Kolusion>I am looking at Debian close.
11:47<Kolusion>If on Debian, Apache is restarted during an automatic update, would that mean a person in the middle of a download would lose connection?
11:47<ratrace>yeah. I used to be freebsd ports maintainer and committer. I know exactly what the process was. but all that was too much work, for maintaining servers. you had to consntantly test and retest, sometimes even hold the version bump in ports because it brought in something incompatible
11:47<jhujhiti>frankly for a package like apache or postfix, the delay will never be on the maintainer (they are maintained by teams in every os i'm aware of), but on you triggering the upgrade
11:47<Kolusion>Yes, the huge ammount of work is what is concerning me with FreeBSD.
11:48<Kolusion>From an Admin side.
11:48<ratrace>it's also important that the _upstream_ has a notion of LTS. That they differentiate fixes from new versions so it's dead easy to just bump the package
11:48<Kolusion>Yes
11:48<Kolusion>There are pro's and con's on both side.
11:48<ratrace>big, important server suites like apache, nginx, postfix, dovecot, postgresql, mariadb (I think), PHP, ... they all comply with that notion
11:49<Kolusion>So if someone is downloading a large file, and Debian updates Apache and restarts the server, would that mean the connection breaks to the person downloading the file?
11:49<Kolusion>*restarts the SERVICE
11:49<Kolusion>not server
11:49<ratrace>yes
11:49<Kolusion>even for the service?
11:50<ratrace>nginx has a concept of graceful _restart_ but I don't think it's automatic in debian, you ahve to do that signalling dance
11:50<jhujhiti>the autorestart behavior in debian can be disabled. and apache _might_ restart gracefully?
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11:50<Kolusion>But if the service (not server) is restarted, the download would break, right?
11:50<ratrace>I definitely disable automatic server (re)starts, and schedule them orchestrated
11:50<ratrace>Kolusion: if it's not a graceful restart, then yes
11:51<Kolusion>How does apt do graceful restarts?
11:51<ratrace>ie. the daemon has to be aware of that. starts a new master and workers while the old one is finishing servicing current connections
11:51<jhujhiti>there's no magic in any OS. if a patch requires a restart, at some point, you need to restart...
11:51<Kolusion>Exactly.
11:51<ratrace>there _is_ magick in specific daemons
11:52<Kolusion>Is it apache that needs to be configured for graceful restart? or is it apt?
11:52<jhujhiti>both the package and the package manager would need to know how to do it.
11:52<ratrace>I don't think apt would go beyond a simple "restart" command, whatever that does
11:52<Kolusion>Can Debian do it natively?
11:52<ratrace>Kolusion: you're asking perhaps wrong questions
11:53<Kolusion>Nah, I am testing a FreeBSD theory
11:53<Kolusion>Someone that warned about Debian
11:53<ratrace>what you want is orchestration, and with that coordinated (graceful if possible) restart of services. that goes WAY beyond apt automagic. that's something you need to do manually as a sysadmin
11:53<Kolusion>Yes
11:53<Kolusion>Thank you so much for the information. :)
11:53<ratrace>FreeBSD services have the _same_ problems
11:53<jhujhiti>if this is your concern, you shouldn't rely on dpkg and apt to do your service restarts. you should disable that and manage the restarts yourself
11:53<amacater>Kolusion: The other thing that is Debian-specific is the concept of alternatives and updating alternatives - so, for vi, there are several possible alternatives providing vi functionality, for example, and you can select which one you want. Likewise webserver
11:54<Kolusion>Updating alternatives? What concept is that?
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11:55<Kolusion>You guys are awesome.
11:55<Kolusion>This support is awesome
11:55<Kolusion>Right here :)
11:55<jhujhiti>Kolusion: yes, a common criticism of people who don't know what they're talking about is that debian is bad because it restarts your daemons automatically. simply disable it and their point is moot
11:55<ratrace>Kolusion: there's a symlink based mechanism where multiple softwares may provide a higher level functionality. think $EDITOR for example. is it vi? nano? ed? something else?
11:55<amacater>As explained: ratrace got there before me.
11:55<Kolusion>jhujhiti: Yes, I am aware of the propaganda on both sides. :)
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11:55<ratrace>so the "alternatives" mechanism allows you to define which one is $EDITOR, when $EDITOR is called by something that doessn't care what it is
11:56<Kolusion>Oh I see
11:56<amacater>so there is a series of alternatives for vi and you can choose whether you have nvi / vim / nano or whatever to provide vi functionality
11:56<Kolusion>So, you are saying, like a fail over software that takes over while the other goes down?
11:56<amacater>likewise X-window-manager
11:56<ratrace>Kolusion: no
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11:57<ratrace>Kolusion: the $EDITOR example is pretty much the best definition of it. programs may call up a text editor. visudo for example.
11:57<jhujhiti>Kolusion: it's just a generic mechanism to give you a choice in the package you use. think more like "default web browser" on a windows or macos machine
11:57<Kolusion>OH
11:57<Kolusion>lol yeah I get that
11:57<Kolusion>Enviormental variables
11:57<ratrace>visudo doesn't care whether you have vim or nano installed and which one you use. all it wants is an $EDITOR. so it'll call that. the alternatives mechanism allows you to specify which program responds to $EDITOR
11:57<amacater>update-alternatives --config vi - gives me three choices for vi and the option to choose which one is selected automatically by default for "vi"
11:58<Kolusion>I am just lost why you are telling me this. :)
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11:58<Kolusion>I thought it is related to service restarts, but perhaps you are just telling me something good about Debian. :)
11:58<ratrace>because you asked? :) "< Kolusion> Updating alternatives? What concept is that?"
11:58<amacater>It's one of the Debian "things" where we may modify upstream packaging to provide the alternatives
11:58<Kolusion>Oh I get you now.
11:59<amacater>So its a Debian-specific modification that others don't have
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11:59<ratrace>well gentoo has eselect, which is very similar
11:59<Kolusion>I have used Ubuntu for 11 years.
11:59<Kolusion>So I understand the internals of Debian.
11:59<Kolusion>A lot of them anyway.
12:00<Kolusion>I don't get into the philosophical side of *nix
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12:00<Kolusion>I am not one of those people. :)
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12:00<Kolusion>Windows 10 is my daily driver. :)
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12:02<Kolusion>Could somebody please tell me the codename for Debian 10?
12:03<amacater>Buster
12:03<Kolusion>Thanks
12:04<Kolusion>One thing I don't like about Debian is that the documentation refers to versions as a codename, but I am not a developer, I am a user, so it makes the documentation hard to use.
12:04<amacater>https://wiki.debian.org/DebianReleases
12:04<jhujhiti>just a tad easier to keep track of than ubuntu's codenames
12:05<amacater>The reason we did that is because somenone once released a version of Debian which wasn't ready on CD-ROM as "Debian 1.0"
12:05<amacater>If you refer to codenames, they are the same from testing - > stable -> oldstable and so on.
12:05<Kolusion>Doesn't mean the official name can't be used.
12:05<Kolusion>https://metadata.ftp-master.debian.org/changelogs//main/a/apache2/apache2_2.4.38-3+deb10u4_changelog
12:05<Kolusion>AWESOME
12:05<Kolusion>This is exactly what I was looking for
12:06<Kolusion>A changelog with dates.
12:06<Kolusion>To compare against official release.
12:06<jhujhiti>debian releases are much longer-lived than ubuntu ones. personally i don't find the codenames to be an issue at all
12:06<jhujhiti>i can learn a new word every few years
12:06<Kolusion>jhujhiti: Are you a developer?
12:07<jhujhiti>no
12:07<Kolusion>jhujhiti: Ah ok :)
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12:08<Kolusion>I am looking at Postfix's changelog, the author of the official software contributes to Debian's version!
12:08<jhujhiti>that's pretty common
12:08<amacater>kolusion: Debian 11 will be Bullseye - hopefully on July 31 of 2021. Debian 10.10 is Buster == stable. Debian 9.13 is Stretch == oldstable
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12:09<Kolusion>Thanks for that information amacater
12:09<ratrace>Kolusion: apt-get changelog <package>
12:09<Kolusion>Ah yeah cool..
12:09<epyucuc>hello :)
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12:10<ratrace>jul 31st is likely not the release date. it's likely end of august or even september, according to current rate of RC bugs weekly decrease, and xkcd #605 :) in fact, the current RC count slightly _increased_ from the beginning of the week
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12:11<amacater>ratrace: That will depend: it's possible that some of the RC bugs will be fixed in the interim, others may be downgraded - that's what often happens
12:11<ratrace>amacater: hence me constantly mentioning the fallacy of my assumption through xkcd #605 :)
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12:12<ratrace>but observiing the count week by week, last several weeks, the extrapolation takes it into late Aug, early Sep
12:12<amacater>Almost as useful as xkcd #1022
12:12<amacater>I haven't heard the latest from kibi and the Release team but I think July 31st is quite likely
12:12<ratrace>so it has come to this :)
12:13<amacater>and that's why the info under !wwbr
12:13<itt788>IFAIK debian does not include the proprietary set of firmware usually in /lib/firmware
12:14<ratrace>itt788: depends on the definition of "include". it's installable from non-free repo, or via unofficially official "firmware ISOs"
12:14<amacater>itt788: It includes firmwqare in the non-free archive. Strictly, that's NOT part of Debian. The installer is free software only - the problemn is with, particularly wifi and video drivers.
12:14<ratrace>non-free is very much part of debian, just not of the default "main" repository.
12:14<amacater>The unofficial firmware isos are prepared by a Debian developer - but they're unofficial because our official installer is only free
12:15<Kolusion>amacater: I was talking to you earlier in #debian-installer, wasn't I?
12:15<amacater>ratrace: Neither contrib or non-free are actually part of Debain ... but let's not reargue :)
12:15<amacater>Kolusion: Yes
12:15<ratrace>the patented, nonfree, closed source software is being dispensed quite officially from debian infrastructure, as part of debian distro configuration _options_ in apt sources.list
12:16<Kolusion>Jump in the channel :)
12:16<itt788>amacater: yes the intel wifi adapters found in most laptops is the reason i asked about it
12:16<ratrace>I am aware of the politics of it but at the end of the day, it IS a repository in regular (but not default) debian configuration option selection.
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12:16<Kolusion>lol Intel Wi-Fi drivers
12:16<Kolusion>Where have I heard this story before...
12:18<itt788>is it easy to make .deb package from sources?\
12:18<amacater>itt788 - I would normally suggest not installing via wifi if you can avoid it but using Ethernet which normally works. If you need non-free wifi drivers to install, use the unofficial firmware .iso. You may still have issues with very new laptops / need video drivers from other firmware packages.
12:18<amacater>itt788 - Yes, but in the case of firmware, they are mostly in non-free
12:19<ratrace>!tell itt788 about nmg
12:22<tomatosalad>Hey guys, does anyone know how to submit a new onion server address to a database? (Sorry, nobody is responding in the #tor-onions thread)
12:23<itt788>in slackware they often only provide a script which will produce a package from sources.
12:23<ratrace>tomatosalad: so if nobody responds in #windows, let them know they can ask here?
12:24<amacater>This is, ultimately, a Debian Linux support channel
12:24<amacater>We will sometimes be able to help with other things, but there is also d#debian-offtopic
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12:25<itt788>i was mentionning slackware to know if debian package making process is comparable
12:26<amacater>Debian package making is a bit more complicated - the debian-mentors mailing list would be the place to ask
12:26<ratrace>itt788: not quite. debian packaging revolves around embedding /debian/ directory with all the relevant instructions, into upstream tarball. it ultimately is NOT a recipe on where and hwo to get the sources and build them into a packge, like ports, portage and some other formats do
12:26<bremner>itt788: #packaging (for unofficial) and #debian-mentors (for contributing to debian) exist
12:27<bremner>meh, it kindof is a recipe, just in more than one file
12:27<bremner>well, not the fetching part.
12:27<ratrace>bremner: it's not a recipe on where to get the sources and how
12:27<bremner>yes, if that's the important issue, fine
12:27<ratrace>imho that's a huge different from ports/portage and friends
12:28<ratrace>it is. with ports or ebuilds, you can have overlay tree, bump the upstream version and run a single command. in debian you have to... dance with teh devil first :)
12:29<bremner>ratrace: in both cases if you have patches / divergence from upstream you have to update that, and if not it is similarly smooth
12:29<bremner>having maintained both FreeBSD ports and debian packages...
12:30<ratrace>bremner: so you know how easy it is to bump a single Makefile variable representing upstream version, versus getting the same done with debian packaging; the rest (patching and realigning hunks) is equal effort orthogonal to packaging
12:30<jhujhiti>i think the point is more salient for non-package-maintainers
12:32<bremner>ratrace: I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. It doesn't really matter in any case, since either one wants to make packages for debian, or not
12:32<ratrace>jhujhiti: I'd say it's the other way around
12:32<jhujhiti>ratrace: as a non-maintainer i sort of dread having to make a trivial change in a debian package but it's a breeze with ports
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12:33<ratrace>so you're a maintainer of sorts. and that's the distinction I'm talking about. even if you didn't have to adjust hunks, bumping version with ports/ebuilds is just update to an Makefile var. with debian it's way more involved preparing orig tarballs, invoking two dozen commands, etc...
12:34<jhujhiti>but i think most other parts of the .deb toolchain are pretty much perfect
12:34<ratrace>and then ther's the issue of amd64 vs i386 builds. ebuilds/ports will multilib both in single step. dpkg however.....
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12:42<jhujhiti>at least we can all agree that rpm has the worst conceivable model and toolchain from every angle
12:44<amacater>... for prebuilt packages and a sensible view of dependencies. Python, pypi and , Maven, java and NPM are all really interesting and broken ecosystemns
12:45<amacater>... and probably well offtopic here
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12:56<Kolusion>Does anyone know which application is responsible for adding mirrors to '/etc/apt/sources.list' during installation?
12:56<Kolusion>When it asks if you want to add a mirror...
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12:59<Kolusion>I've checked 'debian-installer', 'dpkg', and 'apt'. It's none of these.
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13:01<Kolusion>I checked the source of those apps for the string 'deb http://deb.debian.org' which is what resource links start with. Nothing was found with that string, so I assume it can't be any of the applications in those packages.
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13:06<Kolusion>Hmmm where is this wealth of support I hear Debian talk about?
13:07<sney>it's sunday.
13:07<amacater>https://manpages.debian.org/buster/apt/sources.list.5.en.html might be a start. I suspect it's maybe apt-get.
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13:08<Kolusion>apt-get is apart of the 'apt' package. I couldn't find anything in it.
13:08<amacater>The sources of the Debian installer probably populate the file
13:08<Kolusion>Check that too, nothing.
13:08<amacater>Single step through the d-i installer and it's one of the steps
13:08<bremner>What is the actual problem to be solved?
13:08<Kolusion>bremner: It's a secret because it's a bug I want to fix and get the credit for. :)
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13:09<amacater>Kolusion: As noted in #debian-boot - share the bug and we'll give you credit for finding it.
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13:09<Kolusion>I want to fix it. :)
13:09<Kolusion>But I need to know which application is causing it so I can fix it. :)
13:10<Kolusion>Actually I will tell you a bug which I can't fix
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13:11<Kolusion>The installer asks if you want to add a mirror, but if you haven't configured a network card, it won't let you add a mirror, so why is it asking if you haven't configured a mirror beforehand. Stupid.
13:11<Kolusion>But this isn't the bug I want to fix.
13:11<Kolusion>It is another.
13:12<amacater>No, that's by design. in some way.
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13:12<Kolusion>It is a flawed designed. If it won't let you add a mirror when you haven't configured your network in a previous step, then it should not be asking.
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13:13<Kolusion>(As it won't let you configure one with a configured network)
13:13<amacater>If you don't have a network card or a network: it assumes you can't get to a network mirror. So, if you install from, say, DVD1 and don't enable a network, /etc/apt/sources.list will be populated only with the ientries for a DVD
13:13<Kolusion>Right, so it shouldn't ask if you want to add a network mirror.
13:13<Kolusion>Yet it does.
13:13<Kolusion>That is definately a bug.
13:13<Kolusion>Or design flaw I should say..
13:14<amacater>OK - let me step through an install in a short while. Having tested this for debian-installer for media: If you don't have a network interfrace configured, it will normally not let you try to configure a networked mirror IIRC
13:14<Kolusion>Ok
13:15<Kolusion>Yet it asks
13:15<Kolusion>lol
13:15<Kolusion>But if it won't let you
13:15<Kolusion>Then why ask!
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13:15<Kolusion>lol
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13:15<Kolusion>is this for real?!
13:15<Kolusion>No wonder Debian can't attract people.
13:15<Kolusion>Kick for just chatting...
13:16<amacater>No, kick for multiple line pasting - which is probably what the bot detected. see topic for paste
13:17<Kolusion>Out of touch if you ask me
13:17<quadrat>nah, we just have a few people here, which post 50+ lines, so it does make sense
13:17<Kolusion>I posted 3 lines in a space of 5 seconds. A big diffference between 3 and 50
13:18<ratrace>it's also to discourage using enter as punctuation
13:18<Kolusion>Sorry but this fascist down talking on people isn't helping Debian.
13:19<Kolusion>I really want to fix this bug, or at least have a go of it.
13:19<amacater>Kolusion: Swear words, fascist: this is a support channel. Please try to be polite to people.
13:19<amacater>Code of conduct does apply
13:20<Kolusion>Dictating to people is not helping Debian at all.
13:20<Kolusion>This is not how 99% work.
13:21<Kolusion>Actually I have decided I don't want to be associated with Debian people
13:21<amacater>There are a whole bunch of people around: some of whom are working in their second/third language. We ask for politeness and clarity on our channels so that we can help / understand each other
13:21<Kolusion>I will tell the bug
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13:23<Kolusion>When you configure a network during installation and don't add a mirror, what ever is adding the resource links to source.list fails to add and comment out the main repo. When you go into sources settings in the GUI later and toggle it, nothing happens. It results in the system being unable to download apps and to most people is a broken system. To fix it you have to go into sources.list and add the line manually. 99% of people will not do this, they will
13:23<Kolusion>Debian and switch to Ubuntu, as I did 11 years ago.
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13:24<Kolusion>So installing Debian offline results in a broken Debian
13:24<Kolusion>LOL
13:25<Kolusion>Less fascism, more testing. lol
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13:26<grove>Anybody installing Debian offline these days are probably capable of fixing that - and stop calling people fascists
13:26<amacater>Kolusion: Thanks. OK. We now have something to go on. Under most circumstances, if you install with a network, the mirrors list will try and match you with the best mirror
13:26<amacater>Hence the CDN which is deb.debian.org.
13:27<amacater>If you _don't_ install with a network and install from a single piece of media - fairly obviously, you don't get the opportunity to
13:27<amacater>install with a network - but lines are added and commented out. If you test this with Debian 10 media, this is what you find.
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13:27<Kolusion>grove: If people don't act like fascists and dictate to me how I go about chatting, then I won't call them fascists.
13:27<amacater>If you did an install now, you would probably find that it would work or be obvious as to what to uncomment.
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13:28<Kolusion>amacater: I hope you are right
13:28<amacater>(and yes, this caught me out in testing, installing from a single DVD with no network - then I noticed.)
13:28<Kolusion>If my gut feeling is right, Debian has lost thousands of users over this bug.
13:28<olasd>your gut feeling is most likely wrong
13:29<Kolusion>amacater: Every combination should be tested when testing. :)
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13:29<sney>it's similar to #955590, a system that is going to be networked later should have an option for the installer to configure mirrors, even if it can't reach those mirrors at the time
13:29<judd>Bug https://bugs.debian.org/955590 in debian-installer (open, d-i): «debian-installer: Include option to install wireless utilities even if wlan interface not detected»; severity: wishlist; opened: 2020-04-02; last modified: 2020-04-02.
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13:30<amacater>Kolusion: we do try: every point release we run through about 30 tests of various options
13:30<Kolusion>That bug is wrong
13:30<Kolusion>The packages are available after install in the GUI sources menu, but toggling them does nothing because they are missing in sources.list.
13:30<Kolusion>See the bug got him
13:30<amacater>https://wiki.debian.org/Teams/DebianCD/ReleaseTesting/Bullseye_rc2?highlight=%28Debian%29%7C%28RC2%29
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13:31<Kolusion>I have to go to bed very soon, but I will check it out over the next week. This bug has been present since 6.0, but that guys bug report may have indirectly got this fixed.
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13:32<Kolusion>This bug is the reason I switched to Ubuntu
13:32<Kolusion>I used Debian before Ubuntu.
13:32<Kolusion>But I was new
13:32<Kolusion>New people don't hang around to fix things, they switch to Ubuntu.
13:32<amacater>(For clarity - the page I gave is for the quick tests we did for d-I installer for the RC2 release of Debian 11 - the full release or any RC3 will get more testing)
13:32<Kolusion>Cool
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13:33<Kolusion>I have decided that I will be selecting FreeBSD for my server.
13:33<Kolusion>If you are American, happy 4th of July!
13:33<Kolusion>Good bye
13:34<olasd>Kolusion: before you come back to this, you might want to get your attitude in check. Telling people off that they're wrong when they're trying to help you is not conducive to a good contribution environment
13:34<Kolusion>olasd: Sorry to have hurt your feelings.
13:35<olasd>Kolusion: you've not hurt my feelings. You've only hurt your own chances of effective positive change in Debian.
13:35<Kolusion>olasd: I think you are delusional mate.
13:36<olasd>see, that's what I'm talking about
13:36<Kolusion>Ok, you win!
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13:36<amacater>It's worth hanging around for a while, finding out who personalities are - maybe reading lists / wiki documentation - in general, it's helpful.
13:37<Kolusion>I was on lists 10 years ago.
13:37<amacater>And the Debian code of conductis meant to help.
13:37<Kolusion>I have been around the FOSS long enough to know who is who.
13:37<Kolusion>I'm just not into computers like most of the people in the FOSS world.
13:37<Kolusion>I actually hate computers.
13:37<Kolusion>:)
13:38<amacater>Kolusion: It was hating computers in 1996 or so that brought me here ...
13:38<Kolusion>lol :)
13:39<Kolusion>I got my first computer in 1997. You must be a lot older than me.
13:39<Kolusion>I hate Linux as much as I hate Windows.
13:39<Kolusion>I hate Linux because it could have been so more.
13:40<Kolusion>Ok, Linux is stealing my life. I need to go to bed. Bye all
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15:05<acer>hey
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15:43<jhutchins>I love it when the kids start trying to strut their seniority.
15:44<sney>haha
15:44<sney>yes, it's always the "I've been using sid in production for 10 years and already know everything" ones
15:44<sussudio>nooobs.
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16:33<A4L>Can I use `apt upgrade` or a single command to build and upgrade all my packages that I installed from source with `apt-src build --install`? Let's say that a third party package repository does not contain binary builds for my architecture.
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16:44<jhujhiti>wow, as a member of the freebsd community, we don't want them either...
16:44<Habbie>jhujhiti, who?
16:45<quadrat>jhujhiti i guess now you are stuck with him
16:46<jhujhiti>oh, was reading scrollback. didn't realize that was hours ago. i was referring to the person who was upset about the bot kicking them for flooding
16:48<amacater>Same person as cropped up on a couple of channels: the issue raised is, potentially, a real one. The way it was raised? not so great
16:48<amacater>but it's no big deal if you can uncommnent a line or three in a file.
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16:49<jhujhiti>why isn't my pet, cornercase issue a priority one issue for this volunteer-run project!?
16:49<amacater>Because you've been sitting on it for six years and won't tell anyone, maybe?
16:50<sney>"this issue was inconvenient to me and you aren't immediately dropping everything to work with it, therefore you're all fascists and this is why nobody likes debian" unfortunately not the first of those people, nor will it be the last
16:50<sney>I wonder who hurt them.
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16:51<amacater>sney: It might just be an unfortunate manner - but it doesn't help. It might be that they don't communicate well / are neuro-diverse and can't understand why other people don't get it.
16:51<sney>amacater: anyway, I think there are a few bug reports about the assumptions that the installer makes based on what connections/devices are available, that should maybe be confirmed with a dialog. which aiui was the root of their complaint.
16:51<amacater>All we can do is be here and be helpful: It's taken me ~30 years to realise that that works quite well :)
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16:52<amacater>I think it's known - there's constant work going on in the installer - but it could, perhaps, go onto the wiki.
16:54<sney>and a lot of the missing-pieces installs will be resolved if the debate about including firmware by default is decided on the side of usability. I understand that's really come to a head lately.
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16:56<amacater>Its come under discussion A LOT in the mailing lists. Firmware is always a compromise on the side of usability. For myself, I wouldn't want another GR about it - the last one was bad enough
16:56<zleap>yeah I agree on firm ware
16:57<amacater>There are some issues where it is really hard to narrow down what firmware is needed: video especially, it's posssible to do a full correct install and be met with a black screen - but root causes do vary
16:57<zleap>if I install standard debian on my netbook the wifi won't work
16:57<sney>yeah, it's an obviously touchy subject wrt the DFSG
16:57<zleap>which defeats the point of a portable device
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16:58<amacater>And a couple of things are intertwined enough to be showstoppers - if you can't see at all to put in a LUKS phrase for an encrypted drive, it's a bit tough.
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16:58<jhujhiti>do people use the graphical installers? :)
16:58<sney>radeon/amdgpu being broken without firmware has been a known issue in #debian for ehh.. easily a decade, but with more integrated amd video thanks to ryzen, it must be affecting many more users than it used to.
16:58<amacater>zleap: But you can use the standard installer, add the needed firmware later ...
16:59<amacater>sney: Yes: it's also tough because it depends on _which_ firmware. On one firmware variant, there's a fallback to VESA mode: in newer machines not so much :(
17:00<sney>adding the needed firmware (and tools like iw, wpasupplicant) manually later on a machine with no network connection is more of a pain than it should be.
17:01<amacater>People do use graphical installers - and they often work - but then being left with corrupted graphics to type in a LUKS phrase is tough.
17:01<sney>in 2021 you can't reasonably expect any computer user to have a wired ethernet connection available. some laptops don't even ship with the nics anymore, even
17:01<amacater>If you don't have NICs, USB - Wired dongles work well. WiFi is genbrally still a touch unreliable.
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17:02<jhujhiti>it's really sad that the industry is still dealing with proprietary firmware on things like wireless nics in 2021
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17:02<zleap>jhujhiti, i agree
17:03<quadrat>and sadly it's getting worse, as even intel moved on to blobs
17:03<zleap>i think my netbook just installs a whole load of firmware
17:03<amacater>One question from the other day "How do I install Debian 11" on IRC hereabouts. My first answer would be: find out what your laptop is, read release notes, grab firmware, back up any data ... it's about 8 steps you need to do BEFORE an install
17:03<sney>sure, in an ideal world we'd all be fully prepared before doing anything
17:04<amacater>quadrat: zleap: There is one good thing though: LVFS - the Linux firmware updates thing - is working quite well. Lenovo, for example, are being fairly proactive.
17:04<sney>but there should still be a chance of success for someone who just boots and iso to try it. and you also can't reasonably expect any user to use extra dongles just to connect to the internet. IMO if the driver is in mainline linux, there should not be so many barriers to using it in a new install
17:05<jhujhiti>and now we have things like the amdgpu drivers that are open source in the narrowest possible definition (full of autogenerated and unreviewable code)
17:05<sney>at the very least let me tell the installer "yes, this machine has a wifi device that I will configure later" so it installs the tools, and I only need to drop a couple files in /lib/firmware
17:05<amacater>But Wifi drivers _aren't_ in mainstream Linux
17:05<sney>iwlwifi is, many of the realtek ones are, ath10k, there's even a b43 option these days
17:05<amacater>tbh: I now know what drivers are needed and use firmware .iso
17:06<quadrat>sney idk as i don't have a laptop as of right now, but back in the day, it installed wpa_supplicant, if it detected that debian is installed on a laptop
17:06<amacater>but know I have to install firmware-linux-nonfree, firmware-misc-nonfree and firmware-realtek
17:07<amacater>In some ways, we have it easy: imagine trying to reverse engineer all the cheap Android set top boxes and similar to get them to run a decent Linux (or even to upgrade).
17:08<sney>quadrat: the most recent time I tested this, the installer only installed wireless tools if a wifi device was detected. lacking firmware-iwlwifi, the module didn't load, and the tools were not installed.
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17:08<sney>the bug is still open so I have to assume this has not changed
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17:10<zleap>ohh
17:10<zleap>i may install tat
17:10<zleap>lvfs
17:10<quadrat>yeah i was talking about that. and yes i am for not including firmware, but I know that my opinion is my opinion ;)
17:10<quadrat>oh interesting
17:11<quadrat>just reread you message sney, so maybe I was lucky and had back in the day a open firmware device then
17:11<zleap>i don't mind that, it just needs to be easy to find and install the right firmware
17:11<amacater>Certainly, the Lenovo Thinkpad I'm typing this on gets good firmware updates
17:11<sney>quadrat: yeah, we had a golden era with ath5k and ath9k not needing any binary pieces
17:11<zleap>what is the tool for that
17:11<sney>I miss it
17:11<amacater>Some Dells similarly - manufacturers are getting better
17:12<amacater>fwupd or somghting close to that?
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17:12<sney>I wrote a linux-firmware updater, unfortunately it needs a network connection so it's a bit of a catch-22 if the device is a nic
17:12<quadrat>do you maybe know if we already got 6 or 6E wifi devices which are blob free?
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17:13<sney>afaik there are no new-standard wifi nics that work without blobs
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17:13<zleap>for netbooks / laptops external wifi adapters are fine if they don't stick out too far and become a damage risk
17:13<amacater>sney: A lot of the Reltek EThernet devices will claim to need firmware but may actually work without, certainly enough to do an install
17:13<zleap>from knocking or dropping
17:13<ansgar>quadrat: You mean with a pre-installed blob hidden from the user (aka FSF-free)? :>
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17:14<sney>amacater: that's r8169, a gigabit nic series. again, in 2021 you cannot reasonably expect any user to have a wired connection available. even if they have the hardware, there's not always somewhere to plug in. wifi is the connection standard.
17:14<quadrat>ansgar without
17:15*sney has 2 devices with r8169 nics, one requires firmware, the other doesn't
17:16<amacater>Depends - I have a cheap nasty Wifi extender which has an Ethernet port. That plus a USB-Eth dongle makes for something portable that works well enough that you don't need the firmware on the laptop to be working to start with and will bootstrap an install
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17:17<amacater>That's feeding a GigE hub on the desk and potentially four or five devices
17:18*amacater does _a lot_ of installs testing Debian media and has a Debian mirror in the next room, also fed by GigE
17:19<sney>it's nice and convenient when gigabit is available. it really is the best way to install, as it's also typically faster than any wireless standard. on virtio it's a dream. I've always made sure to have it available, as long as I've been an adult, in control of my own technical environment
17:19<sney>(I guess for a while there it was 10/100, but you get the idea)
17:19<amacater>The plug in extender, short cable, USB adfapter would be easily portable for an installfest
17:19<sney>but I wouldn't be here if I hadn't started as a teenager, using nothing more than a secondhand laptop and my gumption
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17:21<amacater>There is always something to be said for having old hardware around - a second hand laptop or whatever. One good friend actually ran a local college course teaching teneagers to build computers from scrap and broken machines, document what they'd done, then take them home as "theirs"
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17:23<sney>that's fun. I donated a lot of obsolete-if-not-for-linux machines to refugee families a few years ago, who knows, maybe some new hackers came out of those families too
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17:26<amacater>There was a good man down in Texas - Ken Starks - who did a whole bunch like that. Blog of Helios
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17:39<Sqrt{not}>one of those based--on things that was mentioned here a couple days ago, apparently specializes in getting older hardware into young hands
17:39<Sqrt{not}>%emmabuntus
17:39<dselect>Emmabuntüs is a linux distribution, based on debian and ubuntu. It is not debian, and is not supported here. Seek help at http://forum.emmabuntus.org/ or https://emmabuntus.org/
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17:40<sney>it's one of the best things to do with a machine from 10+ years ago that still turns on and has all of the bits :)
17:40<sarvad>hmm...so ! invokes dpkg and % invokes dselect? How do newbies know when to use what?
17:41<Sqrt{not}>doesn't matter, database the same
17:41<sarvad>!ubuntu
17:41<dpkg>Ubuntu is based on Debian, but it is not Debian. Only Debian is supported on #debian. Use #ubuntu on irc.libera.chat instead. Even if the channel happens to be less helpful, support for distributions other than Debian is offtopic on #debian. See also <based on debian> and <ubuntuirc>.
17:41<sney>the different one is judd, which is triggered with ,
17:41<sarvad>sqrt{not} : Ah ok, thanks.
17:42<Sqrt{not}>If you're editing, you need to use dpkg, it is the master database
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17:42<amacater>Goodnight folks :)
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18:44<alex11>https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/od3h8b/audacity_may_collect_data_necessary_for_law/ is/will debian be affected by this?
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18:46<luis_>Good night for all
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18:50<sovtware>what happened to irc that everything is different and many chats are gone?
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18:51<raven523>freenode was taken over in a hostile corporate takeover, they reset everything, and most of the communities there moved to libera.chat or other networks
18:51<raven523>debian has been on OFTC for years though
18:52<sney>alex11: my guess is that debian would patch out audacity's phone home functionality, and add a "+dfsg" to the package version
18:53<sovtware>thank you
18:55<luis_>Good night for all. I am trying to install a VPN from vpnbook but the dialog don't show options. Additional appear a warning: "Could be that the pluggin isn't the correct". Is normal that issue? I was installed Debian 10 non-free because wifi.
18:55<alex11>oh that's what the dfsg numering is for? neat
18:56<sney>yes, removing/altering something that was not in line with policy
18:57<sney>luis_: which dialog? what instructions are you following?
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18:59<luis_>sney, thanks for your reply. When I do click on the wifi and I try to add a VPN conection the dialog show that message.
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19:00<luis_>I'm "new" on debian, I come from LinuxMint and before Ubuntu
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19:00<sney>luis_: ok, what desktop are you using?
19:00<luis_>xfce
19:01<sney>and what kind of vpn is it? openvpn?
19:01<luis_>is a openvpn from vpnbook.com
19:02<luis_>In the previous distributions the options appear automatically
19:02<sney>ok, install the network-manager-openvpn-gnome package
19:02<luis_>Ok, I go for it
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19:07<luis_>sney, yeap. Now appear the options "Import from a saved vpn". Thanks. A question more? It's normal this behavior on debian?
19:08<sney>luis_: different desktops come with different package sets. debian users are expected to know, that if something is missing, they should install it.
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19:09<luis_>Oh, ok. I was costumed to have all ready. But I will change my expectations now ;-)
19:09<luis_>thanks again for your support.
19:09<sney>np
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19:12<Guest1495>hi, i installed debian 10 on a new laptop. it's pretty clear debian doesn't like the graphics hardware. running gdm3 results in nothing. i have amd graphics and tried wiki.debian.org/AtiHowTo... any suggestions how to get a working desktop?
19:13<sney>!amdgpu firmware
19:13<dpkg>Binary-only firmware for the amdgpu and radeon <DRM> drivers is packaged for Debian as firmware-amd-graphics. Without this package installed, poor 2D/3D performance and/or missing video features are commonly experienced. To install, ask me about <non-free sources>, then install firmware-amd-graphics.
19:13<sney>Guest1495: ^
19:13<sney>if you already have this package, it's possible that your gpu is too new for the 4.19 kernel, in which case you should enable buster-backports and upgrade your kernel to 5.10 from there.
19:13<Guest1495>ok, backports, maybe!
19:14<Guest1495>been a while since i used backports!
19:15<sney>the other option is to install bullseye instead. it will be released as debian 11 in a few weeks, and should support your system out of the box, with only firmware needed
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19:15<sney>that installer is here: https://cdimage.debian.org/images/unofficial/non-free/images-including-firmware/bullseye_di_rc2+nonfree/amd64/iso-cd/
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19:24<Guest1495>after adding buster-backports to sources.list then "apt-get update" i'm not seeing any "linux-image-5" with "apt search linux-image-5"... what am i missing?
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19:26<sney>Guest1495: you can install the metapackage, linux-image-amd64. e.g. 'apt -t buster-backports linux-image-amd64'. that way it will stay updated, too.
19:26<sney>if that still isn't available, double-check your sources.list syntax.
19:28<Guest1495>yeah, i apparently screwed up by just adding "buster-backports" between "buster" and "main"
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19:53<Guest1495>"possible missing firmware /lib/firmware/rtl_nic/rt18125b-2.fw for module r8169" and more like it....
19:54<sney>r8169 is a gigabit ethernet adapter, some models don't need firmware (and if you're not using wired ethernet, you don't need the driver at all)
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19:55<sney>the message is "possible missing firmware" because it's just parsing the driver information, it doesn't know what hardware you are using
19:55<Guest1495>i'd like to use wired! but graphics are more critical.
19:56<sussudio>!realtek
19:56<dpkg>Realtek is a developer of semiconductors. Realtek Ethernet controllers are supported by the 8139too, 8139cp and <r8169> drivers in the mainline Linux kernel. For support of Realtek-based wireless LAN devices, ask me about <rtl819x> (802.11n) or <rtl818x> (802.11b/g).
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20:00<Guest1499>"ACPI BIOS Error (bug): Could not resolve symbol [\SB.PCI0.LPC0.EC0], AE_NOT_FOUND" "ACPI Error: AE_NOT_FOUND, During name lookup/catalog" "amdgpu 0000:03:00.0: firmware: failed to load amdgpu/navi10_sos.bin )-2)" "amdgpum 0000:03:00.0: amdgpu: failed to init sos firmware" "[drm:psp_sw_init [amdgpu]] *ERROR* sw_init of IP block <psp> failed -2" "amdgpu 0000:03:0.0: amdgpu: Fatal error during GPU init"
20:01<Guest1499>it's odd because wired ether is currently working regardless
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20:02<sney>right, like I said, some r8169 models do not need firmware
20:02<Sqrt{not}>amdgpu is for graphics
20:02<Guest1499>sqrt{not}: right
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20:06<Sqrt{not}>I don't see that navi10_sos.bin anywhere in debian
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20:07<Guest1499>installing the suggested backports amd graphics resulted in the above messages... graphics dies with a fault rather than spinning its wheels
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20:08<sney>weird, it's been in upstream linux-firmware for a while now https://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/firmware/linux-firmware.git/log/amdgpu/navi10_sos.bin
20:09<sney>you can download one of the tarballs here, unpack it and run the copy_firmware.sh to install https://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/firmware/linux-firmware.git/
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20:15<themill>,file navi10_sos.bin --release buster-backports
20:15<judd>Search for navi10_sos.bin in buster-backports/amd64: firmware-amd-graphics: lib/firmware/amdgpu/navi10_sos.bin
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20:16<Guest1499>safe mode booting results in more of the same... i'm just trying to get back to where i can use a native terminal!
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20:21<terr>[18:20] (terr) Are there any good Debian programmers in here from China?
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20:25<Guest1499>installing firmware-amd-graphics/buster-backports killed my terminal... uninstalling didn't fix. seems like installing debian 11 is the next thing to try, unless there's another approach
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20:29<sussudio>it kills your console?
20:29<sussudio>can you get to tty1?
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20:33<Guest1499>what's the command for tty1? normally i use alt-f4... that isn't working, that's all i know.
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20:40<jhutchins>Guest1499: Try Ctrl-Alt. F1-F6 are traditional options, but Debian and systemd may have changed that.
20:41<jhutchins>Guest1499: Traditionaly, consoles 1-6 are text consoles, 7 is the X session.
20:41<jhutchins>Guest1499: And for gods' sake, turn off secure boot. It's only reason for existance is to keep you from booting or installing linux.
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20:44<Guest1499>jhutchins: yes, secure boot is off... first thing i figured out when installing over windows in recent years. thanks for the clarification on terminal windows.
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21:02<Guest1499>ok everybody! dist-upgrade to 11 worked. thanks.
21:04<sney>np, had a feeling that might be necessary
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21:07<Sqrt{not}>thanks themill, but how can that file be in buster-backports, but not in bullseye or sid or experimental ? or am I just not looking correctly?
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22:07*Sqrt{not} checking both via packages.d.o and via judd query, I see that firmware file in buster backports, and no other suite. Magic!
22:08-!-mode/#debian [+l 982] by debhelper
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22:09<sney>Sqrt{not}: unfortunately, it's the database that's wrong. https://paste.debian.net/1203420/
22:10<sney>definitely unusual for these not to match
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22:12<themill>I suspect that things haven't quite caught up with splitting non-free out of Contents
22:12<themill>(I thought I updated judd for that ages ago, but perhaps not)
22:14<dvs>Oh no! non-free is going away!!!! ;-P
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23:55<themill>,file navi10_sos.bin --release sid --arch all
23:55<judd>Search for navi10_sos.bin in sid/all: firmware-amd-graphics: lib/firmware/amdgpu/navi10_sos.bin
23:55<themill>sney, Sqrt{not}: not splitting off non-free (as I had indeed already dealt with that), splitting out arch:all packages from Contents
23:56<sney>ah, of course
23:56<themill>which I apparently have not yet dealt with in judd
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---Logclosed Mon Jul 05 00:00:35 2021