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#debian IRC Logs for 2021-07-13

---Logopened Tue Jul 13 00:00:08 2021
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01:09-!-vdamewood is "Vincent Damewood" on #llvm #debian
01:14<_Andrew>This might seem like a dumb question but how exactly do I add an additional language in gnome3 bullseye? I've been to the settings and additional languages and the menu is completely blank
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01:15<jm_>try #debian-next for testing release
01:15<_Andrew>thanks
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01:17<jm_>I checked task-desktop-foo but it only hase i18n dependencies for firefox/libreoffice/ispell, nothing specific for gnome - have you tried generating other locales?
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01:26<somiaj>though with bullseye so close to being released, we can start fielding questions here too
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01:28<jhutchins>.
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02:47<sodo>https://imgur.com/AwpSVRQ.png
02:47<sodo>why this icon so big
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02:48<grawity>is that a custom icon theme
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02:56-!-twb is "Trent W. Buck" on #debian #debian-rant
02:57<twb>Out of curiosity, I'm trying to compile and then run (via qemu-user) a RV64GC program
02:57<twb>$ clang -x c - <<< 'main(){printf("Hello, world!\n");}' -target riscv -march=rv64gc ===> error: unknown target triple 'riscv', please use -triple or -arch
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02:58<twb>When I try with -target powerpc, I get a linker error from /usr/bin/ld --- I thought clang had its own linker as well?
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04:02<vv221>00:34 <ArtGravity> I hope my confidence is deb.sury.org is well placed.
04:02<vv221>I hope too, I used to rely on it for professional activities ;)
04:02<wyre>hi everyone, I'm wondering ... why can I see watchdog.ko in /lib/modules for 5.10 but I cannot see it for the 4.19 version?
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04:04<sucuralah>hi there, just would like to check if anyone owns an HP Envy x360 with Ryzen 5, and if yes, how's it working with Bullseye's kernel
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04:09<twb>sucuralah: if that's a laptop, you could try that linuxlaptops website (if that still exists)
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04:13<sucuralah>twb: yes, it's a laptop
04:13<sucuralah>it is working on tumbleweed, but that's the latest kernel
04:14<sucuralah>if i'm not imstaking, bullseye is on 5.10
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04:16<twb>sucuralah: you can / will be able to cherry-pick newer kernels from backports
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04:29<sucuralah>twb: those usually don't break stuff?
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04:30<macc24>uh, why xwayland in sid is so old?
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04:33<twb>macc24: sid can't get updates until testing ships
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04:33<twb>Nobody likes it, but it's nontrivial to fix the release flow so that doesn't happen
04:33<macc24>:/ ok
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04:34<The-Fly>evening everyone. Have a hopefully simple question....
04:34<twb>macc24: stuff that's super annoying might go into experimental during that time
04:34<The-Fly>I have a Debian 10 box, that has eth0 set to DHCP
04:34<twb>macc24: xwayland appears to be from xorg-xserver so I am not surprised if that is hairy
04:35<The-Fly>my question is, is there a way to prevent dhclient from over writing resolv.conf, as I wish to statically define the DNS servers vs what the DHCP server wants me to use
04:35<macc24>twb: well latest mesa /might/ be broken with old xwayland
04:35<macc24>s/mesa/panfrost
04:36<twb>The-Fly: yes
04:36<twb>The-Fly: the "right way" is using "resolvconf" package.
04:36<twb>The-Fly: the quick-and-dirty way is "sudo chattr +i /etc/resolv.conf"
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04:37<The-Fly>ok thanks, I'll go do some reading on resolvconf
04:38<twb>The-Fly: if you're using /etc/network still, you can probably also just set the DNS setting there to override dhclient
04:38<twb>The-Fly: you definitely can do that for /etc/systemd/network
04:38<The-Fly>i'm using /etc/network
04:38<The-Fly>tried defining the dns servers in /etc/network/interfaces, but dhclient still tries to over write it
04:39<The-Fly>annoying
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04:42<jm_>wyre: they added an option to compile watchdog core as a module in 2019
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04:43<wyre>jm_, yes, I've noticed this already
04:43<wyre>thank you
04:43<wyre>the point is I'm having problems setting up the watchdog for a specific device
04:44<wyre>jm_, do we need this watchdog core module to use the watchdog?
04:45<jm_>wyre: it should be handled automatically if it's needed by a module (i.e. depmod should take care of it)
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04:46<wyre>jm_, so you mean that when it's not compiled as a loadable module the feature is still there?
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04:47<jm_>wyre: no, I mean if another watchdog driver needs it, watchdog_core should be loaded automatically when using modprobe
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04:48<wyre>jm_, but if it wasn't compiled as a loadable module?
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04:53<jm_>wyre: not sure how that would work or if such configuration is possible
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06:15<twb>wyre: compare CONFIG_WATCHDOG options in /boot/config-XXX as a sanity check
06:16<twb>wyre: do you want to load the generic software watchdog, or what?
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06:17<wyre>twb, I want to load specific software watchdog
06:18<twb>there's more than one?
06:18<wyre>twb, I don't get your point, more than one?
06:18<twb>AFAIK there's only one software watchdog in Linux
06:19<wyre>well, maybe the software watchdog is unique, but the kernel modules are apparently not
06:19<wyre>https://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/torvalds/linux.git/tree/drivers/watchdog/
06:20<twb>wyre: those are hardware watchdogs except for softdog
06:20<twb>each of those configures a piece of hardware, i.e. it is a driver
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06:21<twb>softdog is the exception -- it can only trigger if the kernel itself is still operational
06:21<wyre>twb, well, I don't know how this work, but this is the machine https://www.duagon.com/products/details/bc51m/#
06:22<wyre>and apparently I need to load this module https://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/torvalds/linux.git/tree/drivers/watchdog/menf21bmc_wdt.c
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06:22<twb>OK so let's look in /boot/config-XXX
06:22<twb>I have CONFIG_MENF21BMC_WATCHDOG=m
06:22<wyre>sure, I have the module
06:22<twb>On Intel systems, at least, the equivaslent driver will autoload
06:23<twb>exec 99>/dev/watchdog || echo o >/proc/sysrq-trigger
06:23<wyre>the point is that I don't know how to configure it
06:23<twb>echo >&99 pet
06:23<twb>while sleep 10; do ...; echo >&99 pet; done
06:23<twb>wyre: ^ that's what my stuff is doing, works with either softdog or intel wdt
06:24<twb>wyre: you configure it at modprobe time
06:24<grawity>can't you have multiple /dev/watchdog# nowadays
06:24<wyre>well, twb, I don't have /dev/watchdog once I load menf21bmc_wdt with modprobe
06:24<twb>wyre: e.g. "modprobe mycooldriver hat=purple socks=wool"
06:24<grawity>wdctl looks for 'watchdog0' by default
06:24<twb>grawity: yes, /dev/watchdog is an alias for either 0 or for "all of them", I forget which
06:25<twb>Interesting, wdctl didn't exist last time I fourhgt this :-)
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06:25<grawity>hmm, systemd on the other hand uses /dev/watchdog by default
06:26<twb>wyre: anyway. The OLD way, before wdctl, was to put stuff into /etc/modprobe.d/blah.conf which would be something liek "options my_cool_module socks=wool"
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06:26<twb>wyre: http://ix.io/3sQ9
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08:01<tohoyn>when will debian 11 be released?
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08:02<tohoyn>I already got the answer from dpkg
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08:04<ratrace>tohoyn: https://imgur.com/a/UOnXxTf
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08:06<tohoyn>ratrace what do the cyan and purple curves mean?
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08:07<ratrace>tohoyn: https://bugs.debian.org/release-critical/
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08:08<tohoyn>ratrace: doesn the number concerning the current stable release (light blue) have to be zero when bullseye is released?
08:08<tohoyn>s/doesn/does/
08:09<abrotman>tohoyn: Ideally, that green line will reach 0 .. The green line is for Bullseye
08:10<ratrace>tohoyn: yes, but zero is not on the axis, but few pixels up. see the gray dotted line in the semi-joke imgur post :)
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08:11<abrotman>tohoyn: and there's a link toward the bottom of that bugs.d.o page that links to the "testing" RC bugs
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08:12<ratrace>speaking of, why is the stable release RC growing. I mean... what does that mean, since stable is already released?
08:13<abrotman>https://www.debian.org/Bugs/Developer#severities
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08:13<abrotman>Just because it's released doesn't mean people can't later find critical bugs
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08:14<tohoyn>but are the release critical bugs in the stable release also RC in the testing distribution?
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08:15<abrotman>I'm sure there are some that are shared, but most packages have newer versions from upstream that introduce different and exciting new bugs :)
08:15<tohoyn>ok
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08:22<ratrace>abrotman: but that would mean critical bugs are rarely fixed for Stable?
08:26<abrotman>Not necessarily. Check teh changelogs for the Buster point releases
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10:41<archivist>i need help, badly. i'm desperately trying to write a dolphin service menu that will allow me to create hard links via context menu. this seems to mean writing a bash script first.
10:41<archivist> i'm a seasoned geek but new to linux, and the intricacies of new languages are giving me hell. all my time for my projects has been wasted for weeks because of simple things like this that i can't do
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10:41<archivist>i've been rtfm'ing like crazy but i can't figure out how to manipulate the string that $(xsel -b) returns
10:41<archivist>i'm currently trying to get $(xsel -b)'s output (newline-delimited file URLs) into an array variable
10:42<archivist>IFS=$'\n' -r -a myVar <<< "$(xsel-b)" <-isn't working
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10:43<@Ganneff>archivist: https://linuxhandbook.com/bash-arrays/
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10:44<archivist>i've got linuxhandbook.com open in one of my browser tabs
10:44<@Ganneff>wherever you got your -r -a syntax from, switch to more readable writing, you will like it more later.
10:45<@Ganneff>and then you "fill" your array by foo=(val1 val2 val3) (see the () )
10:46<archivist>:/
10:46<archivist>how about telling me what "more readable writing" is
10:47<@Ganneff>IFS='\n'
10:47<@Ganneff>erm
10:47<archivist>i'm looking at a weird character at the end
10:47<@Ganneff>OLDIFS=$IFS \n export IFS='\n' \n FOO=$(some command that outputs lines) \n echo ${FOO[1]} \n (and so on)
10:48<@Ganneff>(and somewhere IFS=$OLDIFS as one usually doesnt want to continue with a modified IFS)
10:48<ansgar>Or use Python. Less pitfalls :]
10:48<@Ganneff>and all \n ought to be real newlines in your script, of course.
10:49<archivist>that's incomprehensible to me
10:50<archivist>when i was 14, i bought my first cimputer, a dinosaur at the time, an atari 800xl. the guy i bought it from gave me a few books with it, some were program listings in atari basic. but no informationa bout the language itself.
10:50<archivist>i figured out how to program by playign with the programs. i reverse-engineered the rules of the language myself.
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10:51<archivist>so i'm no dummy, ok? please don't give me that condescending linux geek attitude.
10:51<archivist>even in the stuff i've been reading, it's admitted that bash's syntax is horribly finicky
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10:52<archivist>my entire ARCHIVE of almost 2 terabytes is organized with hard links.
10:52<archivist>i need to be able to do this so i can do ANYTHING i care about
10:52<@Ganneff>if you cant translate a \n to a newline when copy/pasting the line above, i cant help you
10:52<archivist>if i had any familiarity with these languages, this would be trivial
10:53<archivist>you're the only person i;ve ever seen show me code that way, dude
10:53<archivist>i couldn't have expected it
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10:54<archivist>but now i get what you meant
10:54<archivist>lemme try that
10:56<archivist>while i'm fucking around some more... can you solve the mystery for me of why no one has ever writtent his piece of code yet? i'm wondering if there's some unspoken hatred for hard links amongst existing linux users; there seems to be little documentation on it beyond endless reposts of ln's man page
10:57<amacater>archivist: What's your underlying file system?
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10:58<jhutchins>archivist: Maybe because you're the only one who's had the misfortune of thinking that's the correct approach to the problem.
10:58<amacater>Some fs won't support hard links at all and, in general, they're not a great idea
10:58<jhutchins>I mean, if people who've spend decades working on this haven't thought of it, you must be a special kind of genius.
10:58<archivist>i am. **middle finger** pick an iq test and compete against me someday
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10:59<jhutchins>In any case, this is not a programming philosopy channel, it shold be kept to specific technical solutions.
10:59<archivist>file system is ntfs
10:59<amacater>BZZT - game over, sorry
11:00<archivist>i got started on windows around 1997 **shrug**
11:00<archivist>just the way it went
11:00<jhutchins>Yep, another genius. Got that mental evaluation right, eh?
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11:00<amacater>archivist: I got started on Windows in about 1986 and gave up serious use in about 1998 for just this sort of reason
11:00<archivist>by the time i knew linux was better, i was already good at what i was doing. THIS situation is what has kept me away until i bought a laptop i couldn't get windows 7 on
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11:01<jhutchins>archivist: My first inter-active login was in 1973.
11:01<archivist>it's not cool to go from being able to tweak every last little setting of a system to having to rtfm for shit like this
11:01<jhutchins>... and this is still off-topic.
11:01<amacater>There's no need for any of us to be ultra-smug - in some ways, we'd always like to help, but htere's some things we really can't do - and yes, this is off-topic
11:01<jhutchins>THere is #debian-offtopic if you would like to continue.
11:01<archivist>fuck your on-topic. are there fifty people asking questions that i'm in thw way of? no. god DAMN this nazi attitude on irc is stupid
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11:02<jhutchins>archivist: It has it's purpose.
11:02<archivist>yeah, to make you feel special
11:02-!-mode/#debian [+b *!*archivist@*.biz.spectrum.com] by Ganneff
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11:02<jhutchins>Ganneff: Thank you.
11:02<amacater>I'd suggest that you might want to ask in debian-user mailing list: we do have at least one really good and useful Bash expert there
11:04<jhutchins>amacater: #debiian@libera has an amazing expert who's done a huge amount of documentation.
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11:04<jhutchins>amacater: Who were you reponding to, I couldn't follow in the flood.
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11:16<skrrrt>Can I retrieve any files with grub ?
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11:19<skrrrt>I'm deb. Seems like nobody on kali wants to help
11:20<skrrrt>Or Is there any way to make a live usb with grub
11:20<sney>iirc the grub rescue console can navigate the filesystem a little bit, but accessing files outside of kernel/initrd is outside the scope. maybe you can print a text file to the screen but that would be it
11:21<sney>!supergrubdisk
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11:21<skrrrt>sney: ok. How about making a live debian usb with android is that possible
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11:22<skrrrt>Maybe i should ask on android
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11:22<skrrrt>!supergrubdisk
11:22<somiaj>unsure if andriod gives you the ability to raw write to an external usb drive.
11:23<sney>yeah, definitely ask android support. I suspect it's possible but you might need to be rooted.
11:23<sney>supergrubdisk is supergrubdisk.org, dunno why the bot doesn't know that one
11:23<Sqrt{not}>skrrrt, what you want to do is to copy files from the unbootable kali system to an external USB or something, right?
11:24<skrrrt>Sqrt{not}:Yeah that's what I thought
11:25<skrrrt>Since I don't have a second pc I have to figure somthing out
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11:29<jhutchins>skrrrt: What did you use for installer medium?
11:30<skrrrt>jhutchins: what do you mean. I used a usb
11:31<skrrrt>I think I got an Idea
11:31<jhutchins>.
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11:32<jhutchins>skrrrt: Did you wipe the installer off of the USB?
11:32<skrrrt>Is it possible to find the old debian 10 kernel on grub and load it
11:32<skrrrt>jhutchins: yes
11:33<jhutchins>It depends. What is the problem with the current install?
11:33<Sqrt{not}>skrrrt, did you try booting all of the 4 kali kernels that are listed in your boot menu, and none of the works? is that right?
11:35<skrrrt>Sqrt{not}: yep. None of them works.
11:36<skrrrt>jhutchins: idk I turned on my pc and and i only found two kali kernels with rescue modes allthough it says debian when I boot
11:36<jhutchins>How does it fail?
11:37<skrrrt>jhutchins: http://imgur.com/gallery/JkNPIuj
11:37<skrrrt>jhutchins: it just shows me the loading screen
11:37<jhutchins>I much prefer text descriptions, but I'll make an exception in this case...
11:39<jhutchins>Ok, grub boot menu. Then what.
11:39<skrrrt>When i boot into rescue mode this happens
11:39<skrrrt>http://imgur.com/gallery/9JBwhw5
11:41<skrrrt>jhutchins: don't you get it. I only have two kali kernels and when I boot into them they just lead me to a loading screen
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11:42<skrrrt>But I didn't install kali. I just turned on my pc one day and there it was
11:42<ratrace>magic!
11:42<skrrrt>On gawd
11:43<Sqrt{not}>skrrrt, that looks like some hardware error on your disk. and, you have CLEARLY installed kali
11:43<jhutchins>Did you ever have kali in the past?
11:43<skrrrt>jhutchins: YESS
11:44<jhutchins>Ah.
11:44<jhutchins>Yes, you can search for the debian kernel with grub.
11:44<skrrrt>Thank gawd
11:44<jhutchins>It shouldn't have gone anywhere, so someting is definitely worong.
11:44<skrrrt>Lemme just open grub real quick
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11:45<jhutchins>I can't give you the details of how - I'd have to google them myself, but I know there are several good tutorials out there.
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11:46<jhutchins>https://www.suse.com/c/loading-linux-kernel-manually-using-grub-sles/
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11:51<skrrrt>jhutchins: thanks
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11:51<skrrrt>Stop downvoting my pictures on imgur :D
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11:57<skrrrt>So I found an ext* in (hd0,gpt2) but I dunno how to find and load the kernel. the commands on the website are wrong
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12:05<jhutchins>skrrrt: That link was only meant as a hint, it's for Suse.
12:07<Sqrt{not}>skrrrt, your imgur picture that shows multiple uncorrectable disk errors on that partition, is probably a very bad sign.
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12:09<amacater>jhutchins: That was to archivist just before the kick
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12:19<skrrrt>Sqrt{not}: is there a way to save the files ?
12:21<sussudio>not if they're on uncorrectable sectors
12:23<skrrrt>sussudio: :/ damn
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12:23<sussudio>skrrrt: is it a pc or a laptop
12:24<skrrrt>PC
12:24<sussudio>skrrrt: have you moved it recently or worked inside it
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12:24<skrrrt>sussudio: are you a phil Collins or an american psycho fan? Or both
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12:25<skrrrt>sussudio: what do you mean by worked inside it. I didn't move it.
12:25<sussudio>american psycho wasn't even out when i started using this nick.
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12:26<sussudio>skrrrt: have you tried reseating the sata and power cables
12:26<skrrrt>sussudio: signature look of superiority
12:27<skrrrt>sussudio: I plugged them out and plugged them in again
12:27<sussudio>skrrrt: on the motherboard too?
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12:29<sussudio>skrrrt: try plugging it into one of those external usb docks and see if you still get the errors
12:29<skrrrt>sussudio: nope not the motherboard. I'll try it but i don't think it's gonna work . But I hope it works
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12:29<skrrrt>sussudio: what external usb docks
12:30<sussudio>skrrrt: like one of these: https://www.amazon.com/Sata-Docking-Station/s?k=Sata+Docking+Station
12:31<sussudio>that way you rule out power/motherboard problems.
12:32<skrrrt>I fcking hate hdd's this is like the second time this year that one of them just starts dying arround
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12:32<sussudio>skrrrt: seagate?
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12:33<skrrrt>sussudio: nope i.norys
12:34<skrrrt>The other one was western digital
12:34<sussudio>what's an i.norys
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12:35<skrrrt>sussudio:http://inorys.de/
12:35<sussudio>how old is this thing
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12:36<skrrrt>sussudio: it says it's from 2016
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12:37<sussudio>looks like rebranded drives, since there's only 3 manufacturers left in the world.
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12:38<quadrat>yeah, never heard of them, sitting myself in germany :/
12:40<skrrrt>hdd's in general they start dying arround mixing up kernels n sh*t after just a year of usage
12:42<skrrrt>sussudio: I don't have an external docking station man :DD
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12:47<sussudio>skrrrt: playing music with loud bass near your pc can cause hdd problems too.
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12:55<skrrrt>Ok it's possible to make a live usb from an android
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12:55<skrrrt>Catch you guys later
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13:00<ratrace>What process/services/config is setting pfifo_fast default qdisc, on debian?
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13:04<sussudio>!confuse ratrace
13:04<dpkg>Yes, where are our gouda tomorrow, ratrace? Pants of the People's Republic of Tahiti with extra herring.
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13:07<eight>I'm having a small problem with the LUKS password dialog
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13:07<eight>I'm currently using the non-free Debian 10.10 ISO (LXQT)
13:07<aloo_shu>if the android is permitting to be usb mass storage or cd, yes, can be neat
13:07<aloo_shu>I'd love to set up a debian live image specifically for that, one that, once booted, initiates a rndis connection to the android device it was booted from, permitting ssh logins, optionally X11 or VNC
13:07<aloo_shu>broken laptop screen rescue set
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13:08<eight>After update && upgrade, the LUKS dialog does not recognize the Backspace key (Ctrl-U still works)
13:09<eight>If I don't upgrade it (4.19.194-1 kernel), then both Backspace and Ctrl-U works normally
13:10<eight>I supposed it has something to do with systemd-ask-password, but I couldn't find anything further
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13:11<ratrace>eight: do you have the proper keyboard layout defined in /etc/default/keyboard ?
13:11<eight>I use normal en_US.UTF-8
13:11<ratrace>that's locale, not keyboard layout
13:12<eight>Oh. I use default US layout
13:12<ratrace>and its defined via /etc/default/keyboard ?
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13:12<eight>XKBMODEL=pc105 XKBLAYOUT=us
13:12<eight>I'm not sure what BACKSPACE=guess means
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13:14<ratrace>eight: there's a very helpful manpage suggested to be consulted, in /etc/default/keyboard
13:14<eight>ratrace: I see
13:16<eight>Is it possible that the LUKS dialog guess wrong the terminal ?
13:16<ratrace>eight: I am not sure what "LUKS dialog" is actually. for encrypted rootfs, the initramfs cryptsetup scripts don't do "dialogs", just a simple prompt on the console
13:16<ratrace>eight: btw, you do have console-setup package installed, yes?
13:17<ratrace>I mean, you should if you have /etc/default/keyboard; but maybe that config remained and the package was somehow lost? without it, setupcon can't setup proper kbd layout in initramfs
13:18<eight>ratrace: I mean the password prompt. Yes console-setup is installed
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13:20<eight>ratrace: How should I debug it ? I can replicate the bug but only if I reinstall everything
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13:21<ratrace>I am not sure. try changing the BACKSPACE option to "bs" explicitly, and rebuild update-initramfs -u -k all ; reboot and see if that fixed it
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13:23<eight>ratrace: Okay I will look into initramfs and setupcon
13:24<eight>Thanks
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13:27<bentham>Why does my debian system try to reach out to metadata.ftp-master.debian.org ? What is there?
13:28<bremner>at a wild guess, dep-11 package descriptions
13:28<bremner>which I still don't see the point of, but ymmv
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13:42<bremner>bentham: when do you notice the traffic?
13:43<bremner>It seems to hold changelogs and README.Debian, but I don't think those are normally fetched by apt.
13:44<vv221>Maybe apt-listchanges would fetch changelogs?
13:44<vv221>(wild guess)
13:45<bremner>better than my first wild guess :P
13:45<bentham>bremner: good question, I'll investigate further.
13:46<ansgar>`apt changelog` downloads changelogs from there; I don't think apt-listchanges does (it instead slowly extracts them locally from the .deb)
13:47<vv221>ansgar, right, I think I remember that from my installations of multi-GB .deb packages and apt being infuriatingly slow due to that.
13:47<vv221>(even more infuriating when I know there is no changelog in there)
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13:51<NthDegree>bentham, you using a desktop or a server?
13:51<NthDegree>If so, PackageKit might be fetching the info
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13:57<r4fkramer>Hi all. I am writing an article for a social network, and I would like to know if it is possible to install a Linux kernel OS such as Debian GNU/Linux 'Buster' on a device that already has Android installed.
13:57<r4fkramer>My thesis is that it would only be possible to run Android on arm64/armel/armhf processors and architecture, and it would not be possible to install a system based on Linux Kernel on Android.
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13:58<r4fkramer>Please, am I wrong ? Surely Debian can be ported for this mentioned architectures, but not Debian Linux itself. Or, is there any mistake in this thought ?
13:58<vv221>Debian can run on a lot of architectures, including arm64/armel/armhf.
13:58<vv221>Including the GNU/Linux kernel + usersapce.
13:59<vv221>Linux is not a x86 thing only ;)
13:59<r4fkramer>vv221 Debian car run on a lot of architectures, sure. But, is that possible 'Debian Linux' running in Android ?
13:59<ansgar>r4fkramer: I'm fairly confident it is possible to install Linux-kernel based oeprating systems such as Android on Android.
13:59<vv221>Running "on Android" as no real sense, Android iself is an OS.
13:59<bremner>r4fkramer: replace Android with Windows in your question. Does it still make sense?
13:59<vv221>I guess you mean on a device shipped with Android by default?
14:00<ratrace>r4fkramer: sounds like a great weekend project to actually get first hand experience and actually know something when you write about it :)
14:00<klax>Hello !
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14:00<NthDegree>r4fkramer, some applications won't work but others will
14:00<vv221>bremner, I’ve read you can now run Debian on top of Windows, with this "WSL" thing ;P
14:01*bremner sighs deeply
14:01<vv221>(not that I would use that)
14:01<ansgar>But can you run Debian on top of Android on top of Windows in Windows 11?
14:01<NthDegree>bremner, Windows can run Debian using WSL1 which is part of Windows itself, no Linux kernel code in use
14:01<bremner>well, you can install termux on adnroid
14:01<bremner>yes, yes
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14:02<eight>ansgar: Can you run Notepad on Wine on Debian on Android on Windows 11 ?
14:02<ratrace>NthDegree: WSL2. WSL1 is not running debian in any shape or form, it's just a bash-like process atop of NT kernel.
14:02<ratrace>(with reverse-WINE lib shimming)
14:03<r4fkramer>bremner, thanks for answering: for me , it doesn't make sense. I know you can use Debian even with FreeBSD Kernel (kFreeBSD). Surely Debian can run on several architectures, such as arm64, armhf, armel. But, not using Kernel Linux. That's what Imagine.
14:03<NthDegree>ratrace, WSL1 can run a whole tree off the top of the bash picoprocess
14:03<ansgar>ratrace: Umm? WSL1 runs Debian just fine?
14:03<vv221>r4fkramer, you should look for what is Android kernel base ;)
14:03<klax>Current Kali WSL on windows10, works fine
14:04<bremner>r4fkramer: sorry, I don't understand "not using Kernel Linux"
14:04<bremner>that is exactly how debian on armhf works
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14:04<NthDegree>r4fkramer, Debian uses the Linux kernel by default
14:05<NthDegree>r4fkramer, also Debian runs on ARM using Linux: https://www.debian.org/ports/arm/
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14:06<NthDegree>So I think you'll find that you can run a lot of Debian packages on Android using chroot; enough for a lot of use cases
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14:08<vv221>*Android* runs on ARM using Linux anyway…
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14:08<NthDegree>yes indeed
14:09<r4fkramer>Sorry, bremner, I meant 'is that possible installing an OS based on Linux in Android ?' Linux is based in x86_x64, amd64.
14:09<r4fkramer>ratrace, I'm trying to clear up an article that seems to me rather nonsensical, referring to Debian 'Linux' installed and running under an Android, which as already said, is itself an OS (Android).
14:09<r4fkramer>ratrace, Linux is a Kernel; but, I don't think the Linux Kernel itself can run on Android.
14:09<NthDegree>r4fkramer, Android *is* the Linux kernel
14:09<r4fkramer>ratrace, The subject is generating controversy, and I need reliable sources to solve this doubt, which is increasing in proportion.
14:09<ratrace>r4fkramer: Android = Linux kernel with java-like userland
14:10<r4fkramer>And, I don't see anyone better than the Debian Community here to answer these questions at once. Did you now understand the proposed question?
14:10<ratrace>it literally IS the very same kernel.org kernel + vendor modifications
14:10<bremner>r4fkramer: Linux is not based on x86_64. at all.
14:10<bremner>amd64 is probably the second or third most widely deployed architecture running the linux kernel
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14:11<NthDegree>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Linux-supported_computer_architectures
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14:11<sarnold>bremner: rofl
14:11<sarnold>bremner: good point :D
14:11<ratrace>r4fkramer: but it's best to try it and see what you'd need to modify a GNU/Linux distro/kernel to run on an android device; and note, each device might require completely different massaginng.
14:11<vv221>bremner, you’re making me curious, what would be more widely used? Legacy i386 devices? ARM-based phones?
14:12<bremner>both, possibly
14:12<vv221>Sounds legit.
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14:12<sarnold>aarch64 phones, armhf phones are my guesses
14:12<bremner>or 32 bit arm and 64 bit arm, depends how you slice it
14:12*NthDegree is running Debian i386 on a cheap VPS because lower RAM use >_>
14:12<bremner>yeah, that
14:12<sarnold>maybe MIPS set-top boxes
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14:12<amacater>There are folk who have tried (and maybe succeeded) in running Debian in a virtual machine on a heavyweight Android phone. [Much like running in emulation in kvm/Virtualbox/HyperV]
14:12<vv221>I’m surrounded by desktops and laptops here, but my setup is obviously not representative of anything.
14:13<vv221>(I don’t own a single smartphone, not even a "dumb" mobile phone)
14:13<ratrace>NthDegree: 2010s called, they want their VPS plans back. 2021s called right after, they laughed and offered many gigs for cents
14:13<amacater>And there have been a couple of attempts to get "Linux@ working on phones natively with mixed success.
14:13<ratrace>welp: librem phones.
14:14<ratrace>I wanted to get one.
14:14<amacater>"Linux" - so no Android components whatever.
14:15<amacater>Pinephone/Librem are the obvious ones most recently. The problem comes that the hardware will run Linux no problem - but then you need closed source bits and blobs to make the phone functionality functional.
14:15<r4fkramer>ratrace, You've come to a point that I wanted to address before: A standard Linux would have to go through several modifications to be able to run on Android.
14:16<amacater>Nice GUI but no phone capability is a waste of a phone ...
14:16<r4fkramer>ratrace, But trying to use a traditional Debian Linux without any modification, installing it on an Android, did not seem technically possible to me.
14:16<r4fkramer>ratrace, Modifications would have to be done first.
14:16<vv221>r4fkramer, I don’t know what are your original documentation sources, but a Linux kernel works on ARM *out-of-the-box* ;)
14:16<jmcnaught>r4fkramer: https://wiki.debian.org/ChrootOnAndroid
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14:17<r4fkramer>For example, it's not common seeing smartphones running Linux OS, they usually are sold with Android OS installed on it.
14:17<NthDegree>r4fkramer, you can just install Debian into a chroot
14:18<vv221>Of course, but the reasons are commercial, not technical.
14:18<vv221>Like Windows and personal computers.
14:18<NthDegree>The reason phones don't have Debian on them is because there's *zero* profit if you do
14:18<ratrace>problem isnt't the ARM chip, but the whole chipsetry around it. bios, boot process, controllers, ....
14:18<ratrace>%s/ARM chip/ARM cpu/
14:18<sarnold>graphics support
14:18<r4fkramer>vv221: really ? Well, it's good to know about it.
14:18<sarnold>bluetooth
14:18<sarnold>wifi / cell
14:19<ratrace>input
14:19<sarnold>r4fkramer: these guys have been keeping ubuntu touch alive after canonical stopped funding work on it https://ubports.com/
14:19<vv221>And even with all these chips, the restrictions are more often due to closed-source engineering, rather than technical limitations.
14:20<r4fkramer>sarnold, thank you for link and information :)
14:20<vv221>We could have 100% libre Debian-based phones, if the industry was not working against it ;)
14:21<ratrace>we have: https://puri.sm/products/librem-5/
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14:21<r4fkramer>vv221, please, what do you think about this ? https://linuxhint.com/about-arm64-armel-armhf/
14:22<vv221>r4fkramer, it’s a bit long, what is the part you have issues with?
14:22<vv221>(well, it’s not *that* long, but I’m doing other things at the same time ;P)
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14:22<r4fkramer>This author makes a distinction between debian running arm64/arme/armhf and 'debian Linux' running on top of these architectures. Maybe my analysis is wrong, not so clear for me yet. That's why I am here.
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14:23<r4fkramer>vv221, sorry for that. Well, have a look if you have interest in other occasion then :) Perhaps you will like this article.
14:24<vv221>r4fkramer, OK, I think I get the confusion now ;)
14:24<vv221>Debian amd64 is a port too, as is Debian i386.
14:24<vv221>See here for an explanation: https://www.debian.org/ports/
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14:25<vv221>The distinction is mostly about official ports (mid-to-big team) and unofficial ports (tiny-to-small team).
14:25<vv221>armel, armhf and arm64 are all part of the official ports, on the same level than amd64 or i386.
14:26<r4fkramer>vv221 No, another one taken by confusion, no! You here are the Light to illuminate a legion of lost and unprepared noobs like Me.
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14:26<r4fkramer>you cannot also be swallowed up by the same kind of confusion that I have
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14:27<amacater>Unofficial ports are also, sometimes, ports that rely on hardware that's no longer produced or current - volunteers keeping alive the ability to install Debian on smaller architectures and reviving material that would otherwise be thrown away
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14:28<r4fkramer>Now, I'll have a look on article sarnold has sent to me, for it's quite relevant for the question I presented here.
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14:32<r4fkramer>ansgar, thank you very much for your explanation :)
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14:37<ratrace>whoever added --exclude and --exclude-dir options to grep and decided that it only refers to basenames, wins 1000 internets. GoodJob(tm). this is totally sarcasm.
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14:40<vv221>Base name of sub-directories, what a brilliant thing to filter upon…
14:41<jhutchins>vv221: As opposed to?
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14:41<vv221>name of any directory in the path ;)
14:42<vv221>With --exclude-dir=.git, you skip files in .git/, but not the ones in .git/refs
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14:42<jhujhiti>uh, it's a glob?
14:42<jhujhiti>--exclude .git/*
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14:44<ratrace>no, grep doesn't work like that. it literally uses only the basename
14:44<ratrace>the glob is matched against the baseneame only
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14:45<vv221>Actually it seems --exclude-dir='.git/*' works, the manpage might be error-inducing here.
14:46<vv221>(to be fair I did not know about --exclude/--exclude-dir, I tend to always give grep some `find …` output)
14:46<ratrace>vv221: doesn't work for me
14:46<jhujhiti>shell quoting issue?
14:46<jhujhiti>the manpage says they're both globs
14:46<ratrace>for example how do you skip grepping in /dev, /sys, /proc and friends.
14:46<ratrace>jhujhiti: yeah I'm always mindful of using * in quotes, unless I want the shell to expand on it
14:47<ratrace>or in concrete case I have here .... grep -r -i '--exclude-dir=/dev/*' ... "fq_codel" / descends into those dirs
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14:49<ratrace>ended up using find -xdev to block on filesystem boundaries, but then I want to exclude /usr/src/ dirs. no can do. if this is PEBKAC, I'm all ears.
14:49<jhujhiti>the manpage says that --exclude-dir only excludes matches that were specified on the command line if i understand it correctly
14:49<vv221>ratrace, that’s even more tricky than I expected. `grep -r -i '--exclude-dir=/dev/*' … /` won’t work, but `grep -r -i '--exclude-dir=/dev/*' … /*` will.
14:49<jhujhiti>:shrug: i never use gnu extensions
14:49<ratrace>tried taht too via xargs. no go
14:50<ratrace>I just wish it had proper GLOB or FILTER, like rsync does. that one is sweet.
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14:58<jhujhiti>ah yeah i missed the bit about it being a basename in the manpage. wtf, why bother with a glob
14:59<jhujhiti>and why does --exclude-files exist if it takes basenames instead of paths
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14:59<jhujhiti>gnu stuff is so bad :(
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15:00<ratrace>I really welcome the systemd/linux, gnu-free, future :)
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15:00<ratrace>rust coreutils is already on the way :)
15:01<jhujhiti>i don't buy the rust hype for one second. every new language was going to solve all of our problems and here we are still using c
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15:01<ratrace>the kernel devs, and increasing number of userland devs, disagrees tho.
15:01<jhujhiti>but gnu stuff shows a distinct lack of thoughtful design
15:02<ratrace>I just don't understand why the author wasted time to make the half-donkey job like that.
15:02<@Ganneff>you ought to switch to #debian-offtopic if you want to continue down this road
15:02<ratrace>right, sorry.
15:03<jhutchins>Gods, here we are again discussing development philosophy on the tech support channel.
15:04<jhutchins>+ Ganneff
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15:07<r4fkramer>Thank you for the link you have provided, jmcnaught :)
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15:58<Guest690>hello
15:59<sney>hi
15:59<Guest690>i just installed debian 11
16:00<Guest690>works great but I need to edit my sources list file
16:00<Guest690>deb ftp.uk.debian.org/debian/amd64 bullseye main contrib < is a valid entry
16:00<sney>not the amd64
16:00<Guest690>ok
16:00<sney>!bullseye sources.list
16:00<dpkg>A suitable /etc/apt/sources.list for "Bullseye" has three lines: "deb http://deb.debian.org/debian/ bullseye main" "deb http://deb.debian.org/debian-security bullseye-security main" "deb http://deb.debian.org/debian/ bullseye-updates main". Note that bullseye does not yet have security support and is a <moving target>. See <deb-src> <contrib> <non-free> <bullseye-security>, or <bullseye-updates> and "man sources.list".
16:01<sney>you can use any mirror instead of deb.debian.org, this is the syntax
16:01<Guest690>thankjs
16:01<sney>np
16:01<Guest690>is there a utility for this to choose a new mirror
16:01<Guest690>e.g dpkg-reconfigure
16:02<sney>,i netselect-apt
16:02<judd>Package netselect-apt (net, optional) in buster/amd64: speed tester for choosing a fast Debian mirror. Version: 0.3.ds1-28; Size: 18.3k; Installed: 41k; Homepage: http://github.com/apenwarr/netselect
16:02<Guest690>thanks
16:03<sney>np, usually deb.debian.org is fastest because of the cdn, but it might not work great on some networks.
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16:04<ansgar>dpkg: bullseye sources.list =~ s/http:/https:/g
16:04<dpkg>OK, ansgar
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16:06<Guest690>ok that seems to have fixed it
16:06<Guest690>thanks
16:06<Guest690>i can update
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16:16<r4fkramer>Now, I got a bit confused: if debian bullseye still doesn't have security support, why do we use 'deb http://security.debian.org/debian-security bullseye-security main contrib non-free' ?
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16:16<quadrat>r4fkramer the repo exists, but is empty, only when bullseye is released, packages are pushed into that repo
16:16<r4fkramer>Not everyone, but I use non-free repos for debian
16:16<quadrat>out of convenience it is already there
16:17<Guest690>so it is there ready for final release
16:17<quadrat>yes
16:17<r4fkramer>Fine quadrat, thank you for information :)
16:17<quadrat>so people can already use it in the sources.list file without any errors
16:18<r4fkramer>but backports in bullseye is not recommended ?
16:18<quadrat>r4fkramer why wouldn't it? same thing, repo exists, but empty
16:18<r4fkramer>Oh, fine
16:19<quadrat>btw same with bullseye-updates ;)
16:20<r4fkramer>Thank you or clarifying quadrat - I am really anxious for bullseye stable.
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16:21<Guest690>ok i am off to move data to new system
16:21<Guest690>tthanks
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16:24<r4fkramer>Please quadrat, a question has arisen here: what about when upgrades are flagged to be done after giving the command 'apt update && apt upgrade in bullseye ? I experience this situation often around here.
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16:25<vv221>What do you call « upgrades flagged to be done » ?
16:25<r4fkramer>Always I have impression that bullseye is performing some upgrades whenever it happens...
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16:26<r4fkramer>vv221, bad vocabulary, sorry. I meant: when apparently some upgrades are available.
16:26<quadrat>r4fkramer the only thing i can guess is that there are a lot of updates, to fix bugs (so that bullseye can get released)
16:26<vv221>If you ran `apt update && apt upgrade`, most of the time there should be no remaining pending package upgrade.
16:27<r4fkramer>I see, quadrat, now it's clear for me, thank you very much.
16:28<NthDegree>It might be worth keeping in mind "doesn't have security support" means that patches for CVEs are still on the package maintainer
16:29<r4fkramer>Thank you for explaining, vv221
16:29<NthDegree>(as opposed to receiving DSAs where a team checks to make sure everything is patched in a very timely manner)
16:30<r4fkramer>Ok NthDegree, nice information. Thank you very much for that :)
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16:31<r4fkramer>Sometimes these questions related to CVEs and DSAs weren't so clear for me. Thank you for explanation, clear and concise
16:32<vv221>Well, actually the security part is really easy:
16:32-!-gelignite [~gelignite@55d4dbb8.access.ecotel.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:32<vv221>- if you have strong security concerns, use the current Debian stable
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16:32<vv221>- otherzise, use Debian Sid
16:32<vv221>Done ;P
16:33<vv221>Every other branch/distro/OS out there is only there to give the illusion of choice.
16:33<r4fkramer>vv221, that is the first time I'm using testing version of bullseye. I've always been using stable branch.
16:34-!-shibboleth [~shibbolet@000288d9.user.oftc.net] has joined #debian
16:34-!-shibboleth is "/" on #debian-offtopic #virt #tor #samband #redditprivacy #Qubes_OS #privacytech @##privacy-news @##privacy #linux #debian-nordic #debian-next #debian #Corsair @##politics
16:34<vv221>By the way, we have a dedicated IRC channel for testing/unstable discussion: #debian-next
16:35<NthDegree>vv221, you say that... but https://security-tracker.debian.org/tracker/source-package/libsepol
16:35<r4fkramer>Thank you vv221, I promise I will not get this channel full of bullseye questions - sorry when it has happened.
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16:36<vv221>NthDegree, I’m quite sure it’s about my half-serious message stable vs. Sid vs. the world, but I do not get what I should see on this page ;)
16:37<NthDegree>vv221, the first vuln on that list is marked as minor issue but then the severity isn't low on the actual source info for it
16:39*NthDegree finds the decision-making process a tad confusing for some of these
16:40<vv221>To be fair, I have a blind trust in Debian security team. Mostly because I have almost no knowledge in this field, so I need to trust some team anyway ;)
16:42<NthDegree>The one I've noticed is lulz too because the "fix" is a documentation update, so the NVD is totally glitched
16:44<r4fkramer>Despite the fact I have to trust all debian teams, I don't care about that, as the end result of this OS never disappointed me :).
16:44<NthDegree>and it looks like the discrepancy is between CVSS 2 (which rates it Low) and CVSS 3 (which rates it Medium)
16:45<r4fkramer>I am an Eternal Loyal User of Debian. I will never exchange it for any other Linux Project, no matter what.
16:46<NthDegree>I can see the logic as to why it's flagged as minor, as it's a vuln which would only apply to compiling policy when it's due to be added to the kernel
16:47<Konomi>I'm having trouble with a SSL certificate error with curl `$ curl -I https://www2.health.vic.gov.au/` `curl: (60) SSL certificate problem: unable to get local issuer certificate`, works fine in firefox anyone know if the debian certs are out of date or something?
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16:51<NthDegree>Konomi, I'm gonna check where curl looks for certs now
16:52<Konomi>I presume ca-certificates package
16:52-!-xylo [c55663548b@125.236.225.172] has left #debian [Machine going to sleep]
16:54<NthDegree>it checks here:
16:54<NthDegree>* CAfile: /etc/ssl/certs/ca-certificates.crt
16:54<NthDegree>* CApath: /etc/ssl/certs
16:54<NthDegree>and that points to a bunch of symlinks :|
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16:57<echoSMILE>After an upgrade is there the possibility to ipv6 been activated and firewall rules being altered?
16:58-!-mode/#debian [+l 993] by debhelper
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16:58<Konomi>https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ca-certificates/+bug/1795242
16:58<virtu>hey, I am learning Python (old guy trying to learn a new skill) and I am not sure which software to use: visual studio or what?
17:00<sney>virtu: most of us will just use a basic text editor, like nano/vim/emacs etc. a full IDE is overkill for just learning, and may get in your way if it has any kind of autocorrect features
17:00<NthDegree>Konomi, that would imply that bug has existed for years :|
17:00<ratrace>virtu: pycharm, if you want a quality python IDE
17:00<Konomi>NthDegree: seems so
17:00<NthDegree>and it exists in Bullseye too
17:00<Konomi>the certificate chain is incomplete but included in firefox's own certiccate store
17:00<virtu>sney: thanks, I was using nano with highlight syntax
17:00<Konomi>but not in ca-cerfiticates
17:01<virtu>ratrace: ok, thanks :)
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17:03<sney>echoSMILE: it's unlikely but depends on how those things were configured prior to the upgrade.
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17:04<virtu>sney: to run the .py file then just run python example.py on a shell, right?
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17:04<Konomi>oh well since ultimately it's digicert issue/site nothing to be done
17:05<Konomi>(I really wish people would stop using digicert)
17:05<sney>virtu: you should get used to specifying the python version, so python3 foo.py rather than python foo.py, but otherwise that's right. I usually keep 2 term windows open, one for the editor and one for running the script.
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17:05<virtu>sney: ok, perfect.
17:06<virtu>sney: thanks
17:06<sney>np, enjoy
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17:08<echoSMILE>sney: about ipv6, I manage the network settings with network manager from xfce and ipv6 still is disabled, but ipv6 is being running. About firewall rules, I have a script with the rules and weird enough, the rules from that script are executed at boot but the policies are all ACCEPT where at the script they are DROP.
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17:12<virtu>sney: I am using 3 sources of material to learn: Python 101 from Python library (which probably is the best, only the language is not very beginner friendly), Microsoft Docs take your first steps with Python (Visual Studio tutorials), and Brilliant, but brilliant is very nce, but free version do not cover everything
17:12<virtu>sney: what about https://www.udemy.com/course/python-the-complete-python-developer-course/
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19:24<user01>hi if i have 3 2 TB hard drives and want to copy the all their data onto a new 14tb usb drive with verification that all files copied successfully, when is the best way to do this?
19:25<user01>cp?
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19:25<sney>rsync
19:25<user01>ok
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19:28<user01>sney, so like rsnc -avh /source/target ?
19:28<sney>I am reasonably sure the rsync man page has several very clear examples
19:28<user01>sney, ok then
19:29<user01>sney, oh yeah -avPc might be better with the progress bar
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19:30<user01>and checksum
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19:31<sney>it is intended for what you're doing, even -a would be fine. and make sure you test it with one or two small directories so you understand when to use a trailing /
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19:33<jhutchins>user01: The syntax by which you specify source and destination is critical. If you're sloppy, you'll end up with /foo/foo/foo
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19:34<jim>in the emacs I installed from backports, ctrl-x ctrl-f <filename> works, but invoking emacs like this: emacs <filename> does not... do I need to install something else to get it to recognize plain text files that are specified on the shell command line when starting emacs?
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19:35<sarnold>user01: you may also wish to use sha256sum or md5sum or something to verify the copies, eg find /etc -type f -exec sha256sum {} + | sha256sum -c --quiet
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19:44<user01>jhutchins, i was going to do rsync -avPc /media/user01/2tb20190305 /media/user01/14tb20210713
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19:45<user01>each drive as a folder
19:47<user01>the data is somewhat sorted but i figure if i just get all the data onto one drive i can organize it better and not have 3 drives plugged in
19:47<user01>then i can store these old drives as backups
19:49<user01>seagate sent my a free 14tb hard drive cause they lost my 4tb one
19:52<gry>spectacular
19:54<dvs>O_O
19:54<sney>nice, free 10tb
19:55<quadrat>+x amount of years
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19:57<user01>they were supposed to send me a replacement 4tb and they sent a 1tb after 3 months and as an apology they sent a 14tb
19:58<user01>how long do you reckon it will take to transfer 2TB via USB and rsync?
19:59<quadrat>usb 2 or 3?
19:59<user01>3
19:59<somiaj>a lot involved in that, but with usb3 faster than you would think, with usb2 way slower than you would want is my experience.
19:59<sney>depends on the files, usb standard, various other factors, but I'd say start it when you go to sleep so it'll be done in the morning
19:59<quadrat>my crappy 2.5" copies at about 50MB/s
20:00<user01>well i assume it will be awhile . . . i dont even have a progress bar yet . . . still sendin file list
20:00<user01>incremental file list
20:00<sney>it'll be a few hours at least, most likely. it's a lot of data to transfer.
20:01<user01>yes, i debated cleaning up the disks before doing it, but i figured it would be easier to just transfer everything to one disk first and prune from there
20:02<user01>at some point i will invest in a NAS . . .
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20:02<sussudio>2TB takes about 12-24 hours
20:02<user01>not really worth it though i dont think as a single user
20:04<sney>I have a vm hypervisor and one of the vms is a nas, if you have a lot of data and more than one computer that wants to access that data, some kind of network storage is a good idea. even with only 1 person in the house.
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20:04<user01>sney, yes, those drives are so expensive though
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20:04<user01>sney, and you need at least two for redundancy
20:05<sney>you have 3 2TB hard drives already, that's a good start
20:05<user01>sney, external usb
20:05<sney>there's always a conventional disk in that box
20:05<sney>and watch out for discounts etc
20:06<user01>sney, whats wrong with discounts?
20:06<sney>no I mean, pay attention to discounts, so you can get some disks when they are cheap
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20:07<user01>sney, i was contemplating getting a 2 bay NAS with larger drives than 4 drives with smaller disks
20:07<sney>there are a lot of options for network file storage.
20:08<user01>because NAS drives are crazy expensive
20:08<user01>at almost any size
20:08<quadrat>user01 it really depends on what you do if it's worth it to go 4bay in comparison to 2bay, and how much data you have
20:08<sney>don't get fooled by drives that say "nas" on them being the only appropriate drive type. that's almost all marketing, for a home user it does not matter what the sticker on the drive says
20:09<user01>i guess im at about 10 - 12 GB of data -- but i probably dont need all of that available on a NAS all the time
20:10<user01>sorry TB i mean
20:10<sarnold>normally those "NAS" drives offer (a) better vibration handling (b) TLER -- time-limited error response or something similar, so they'll give up rather than try for 30 seconds to read a bad sector (c) better warranties
20:10<sarnold>the vibration stuff probably doesn't matter much for four drives
20:10<sney>right, and if your budget only has room for a couple of desktop drives, then that will still be fine
20:10<sarnold>though maybe (d) none of that shingled-magnetic-recording crap
20:10<sney>source: lots of experience
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20:11<user01>ive tried shopping for a NAS but too many options to choose from i probably just gave up
20:12<user01>they release a new one every 3 months it seems
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20:13<somiaj>I think a lot also depends on how you want to access it.
20:14<sney>the synology stuff is pretty popular, though with reasonable linux knowledge you can just put samba on a computer
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20:22<mason>SuperMicro-based servers and chassis work pretty well and are available for not-a-ton on eBay.
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20:23<sarnold>also not that quiet :) heh
20:23<mason>No, but their being in the cellar helps. Good point though. Not everyone has a cellar.
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20:23<mason>(Cellar's also nice and cool even without AC.)
20:24<sarnold>I've heard there are quieter powersupplies and hotswap fans available
20:24<sney>for home use, some <10 year old refurb desktop is more than enough too, as long as it has a bunch of sata ports. the cheap stuff goes a long way.
20:24<sarnold>mine's in my basement, and it's actually off at the moment because it's something like 200W of heat non-stop, hah
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20:47*Hotswap fans
20:47<sarnold>:D
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21:01<syli>Hello, I want to call nftables via the C API, but I don't know how to use the libnftnl library. Where can I find the libnftnl library description?
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21:03<abrotman>there's both a -dev and a -dev-doc package
21:05<raven523>syli: there are examples in libnftnl's source code, but I don't know if they're included in the packages abrotman mentioned: https://git.netfilter.org/libnftnl/tree/examples
21:08<syli>yes, the source code include a lot of examples, but no comment in the source code.
21:08<raven523>this is typical for open source libraries
21:09<raven523>it looks like the sources can generate docs with doxygen
21:10<syli>How to generate, is there a link?
21:11<raven523>I'm not sure, but it probably involves invoking the command "doxygen"
21:12<syli>Thanks, I'll have a try.
21:13<raven523>maybe "doxygen doxygen.cfg" after building the sources
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21:16<raven523>there is libnftables, which might be easier to use than libnftnl
21:16<raven523>it appears to be part of nftables itself instead of a separate source distribution like libnftnl
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21:39<sonafamily>hello
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21:43<syli>Thanks raven523! I generated the documentation through Doxygen, which helped me understand the source code to some extent.
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21:43<syli>Of course, it would be nice to have a functional description
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22:54<r4fkramer>Please, I accidentally deleted several files that were in the trash. Is there a practical and quick way to recover these files? Or is it a somewhat bureaucratic and time-consuming task?
22:55<r4fkramer>I use mate desktop environment in debian buster.
22:58<nevyn>there's an ext undeleter .. but you get to keep both halves
23:01<r4fkramer>Fine nevyn, Please, how to I proceed ?
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23:19<Sqrt{not}>r4fkramer, start with: man extundelete
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---Logclosed Wed Jul 14 00:00:10 2021