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#debian IRC Logs for 2021-07-15

---Logopened Thu Jul 15 00:00:11 2021
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01:44<Ares>hi! I am planning to make a web server and app server for multiple businesses but I don`t know exactly how should I do it... do you have any suggestions?
01:45<Ares>I am planing for e commerce
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01:49<user_>i love debian!
01:49<user_>long life to IRC!!!
01:50<PiRATA>hey Ares
01:51<PiRATA>what kind of app server?
01:53<Ares>for android?
01:53<Ares>hi!
01:55<Ares>I am trying to build a server with website and app functionality, just to be clear
01:58<PiRATA>it will take some work
01:58<PiRATA>why not just develop a web app? everyone could use it with a browser
01:58<PiRATA>not need to install some app
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02:00<Ares>I am trying to make websites for local businesses?
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02:01<PiRATA>why would an app be needed?
02:01<Ares>I just want to make a server
02:01<PiRATA>what services you want to provide?
02:01<Ares>so how do I host an android app?
02:02<Ares>app + website
02:02<PiRATA>android apps are hosted on google's servers
02:03<Ares>I did not know :D
02:03<PiRATA>website -> just start developing it. You will need a webserver at min.
02:04<Ares>and how do I separate the websites ( bad neighbor issue )
02:05<PiRATA>having several web apps in the same webserver?
02:05<PiRATA>*on
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02:06<Ares>yes
02:07<Ares>how can I give them access to install their website on my pc?
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02:08<Sqrt{not}>Ares, what do you have running on this pc already?
02:09<PiRATA>Ares, you just need a proxy
02:09<PiRATA>nginx is great for that
02:09<PiRATA>web server + proxy + load balancer
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02:10<Ares>I don`t have anything, I am just making a list of software and skills that I need to have for this specific task
02:10<Sqrt{not}>Ares, what operating system do you have running on your pc?
02:10<Ares>I will test it today
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02:10<Ares>debian testing
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02:11<PiRATA>Ares, that can varry a lot depending of the app
02:12<PiRATA>*vary
02:12<Ares>so what should I start learning first?
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02:13<PiRATA>you can approach the problem from diff points
02:14<PiRATA>you can start learning web development (HTML, CSS, JS, PHP/Python/Go/NodeJS)
02:15<PiRATA>then move to sysadmin
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02:19<Sqrt{not}>Ares, study about website security, hosting security, server security. It is dangerous to put a web server on the network if you don't know what you are doing.
02:19<user_>hey Ares, have u heard abt Docker?
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02:20<Ares>https://debian-handbook.info/get/now/
02:20<Ares>is this one the sysadmin book?
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02:21<Ares>hi Sqrt
02:21<Sqrt{not}>yes, an excellent book
02:21<PiRATA>it's a good start
02:22<Ares>I heard about docker but it is acting like a virtual pc, so I port forward 80 to it and the 2nd website?
02:24<Sqrt{not}>Ares, I don't know why you would need Docker for what you describe
02:24<Ares>I saw tons of tutorials online but they just show about 1 website
02:25<Ares>user_ mentioned about Docker
02:25<Sqrt{not}>OK, what will you use Docker for?
02:25<Ares>I don`t know
02:26<Ares>@user_
02:26<Ares>he said about it
02:27<Sqrt{not}>start with the handbook. Learn about nginx maybe for web server. maybe make one website for yourself.
02:27<Ares>I don`t understand that technologies... docker and kubernetis
02:28<Sqrt{not}>Ares, I think you can get started without docker and kubernetis, just start with a simple website
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02:30<Ares>I have few websites, this is not an issue, the complicated things start when multiple people need to have remote access to modify their websites
02:31<Ares>or how should I manage the situation?
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02:34<Sqrt{not}>that probably depends on what software you are using to host their sites.
02:36<Sqrt{not}>Ares, stay connected in this channel, and as other people come online, you will probably get more advice from web admins with more experience than me
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02:36<PiRATA>remote access to a server to modify a website?
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02:36<PiRATA>do you mean content?
02:37<Ares>I don`t use any software for the moment, which one should I use?
02:37<Ares>yes, content
02:38<Ares>or if they need to install whatever software like WordPress ..
02:39<PiRATA>but do you want to provide or be a provider?
02:39<Ares>be a provider
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02:40<PiRATA>content management can be done directly into most web apps
02:40<Sqrt{not}>PiRATA, what do you mean "web apps"?
02:41<PiRATA>CMS
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02:45<Sqrt{not}>Ares, you say you have few websites already. what is the form of these websites? aa
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02:45<Ares>usually php, javascript, html, css
02:46<Ares>python maybe
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02:46<PiRATA>http://highscalability.com can be a good resource to learn how design large but efficient websites
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02:46<PiRATA>*how to
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02:58<Sqrt{not}>Ares, I don't know where you are, but now is just starting to be morning in western Europe, and is late night in N. America. More knowledgeable people will be here as we get more into the normal workday. be patient, and ask again after a while if no one has answered
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03:01<Ares>thank you!
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03:11<Ares>http://highscalability.com is interesting
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03:12<azeem_>Ares: are you spamming?
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03:16<Ares>no
03:16<Ares>I am trying to make a server at home
03:16<Ares>:)
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03:17<Ares>do you know how?
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03:52<FelixActually>When I run rkhunter --update it says this: Invalid WEB_CMD configuration option: Relative pathname: "/usr/bin/wget"
03:52<FelixActually>Does anyone know why?
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03:58<jm_>does that file exist?
04:04<FelixActually>jm_: Yes
04:04<FelixActually>$ whereis wget
04:04<FelixActually>wget: /usr/bin/wget
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04:10<jm_>is it somehow set to «"/usr/bin/wget"»?
04:10<FelixActually>As in with quotation marks?
04:10<jm_>yes
04:11<FelixActually>Examples in /etc/rkhunter.conf have quotation marks in them
04:11<FelixActually>So I would presume it handles that correctly
04:12<jm_>maybe try it without
04:12<FelixActually>I removed everything but "wget" without quotation marks and now it works
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04:15<FelixActually>Hm... it says "skipped" for "checking file mirrors.dat", and "update failed" for "checking file programs_bad.dat" "backdoorports.dat", "suspscan.dat" and "i18n versions"
04:16<FelixActually>The log file says "Info: The mirrors file has no required mirrors in it: /var/lib/rkhunter/db/mirrors.dat"
04:17<bentham>This sounds like really fragile stuff.
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04:17<FelixActually>?
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04:18<bentham>I mean, this rkhunter thing ought to work out of the box, like chkrootkit does, and it ought to be robust to obvious dependencies and obvious changes to configuration edits. If nothing else, it should be able to flag the user with instructions on what to do.
04:19<bentham>The fact that it does not, does not inspire confidence.
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04:20<FelixActually>It could be because it's a version from two years ago
04:20<bentham>,v rkhunter
04:20<judd>Package: rkhunter on amd64 -- jessie: 1.4.2-0.4+deb8u1; stretch: 1.4.2-6+deb9u1; buster: 1.4.6-5; bullseye: 1.4.6-9; sid: 1.4.6-9
04:20<bentham>you mean 1.4.6-5 rather than 1.4.6-9?
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04:23<FelixActually>Perhaps there have been a lot of improvements in those few versions
04:23<FelixActually>But I don't know
04:24<ratrace>at the end of the day, let's just keep in mind that rkhunter is basically a toy. should be in games section now :)
04:24<FelixActually>What do you mean?
04:25<ratrace>it's not really gonna find anything important
04:26<bentham>Is chkrootkit any better?
04:26<ratrace>doubtful
04:26<ratrace>signature based "rootkit" detection is least effective, if at all, for most of scenarios
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04:28<ratrace>(and will show a number of false positives)
04:28<bentham>Makes sense. Probably better to monitor your processes and network activity, have a shot of vodka and pray
04:28<ratrace>yes. the proper way to handle security is to define a set of policies and monitor for where such policies are (attempted to be) violated.
04:29<FelixActually>Well what should I do about this weird file in my home folder then?
04:29<bentham>What is it?
04:29<FelixActually>It has either one or two Unicode characters and a Japanese character or one Unicode character and two Japanese characters as its filename
04:29<ratrace>if you suspect malware, upload it to virustotal. chances are that will be more fruitful than rkhunter. r(oot)k(its) are rarely concerned with user home directories anyway.
04:30<FelixActually>And inside it there's a number, the name of one of my programs, another number, and what appears to be a UUID of one of my partitions all on separate lines
04:31<ratrace>FelixActually: even if you want to use rkhunter and/or chkrootkit, you should do it offline
04:31<FelixActually>Why?
04:31<ratrace>because if you ARE infected, no tool run on the infected system can be trusted
04:32<FelixActually>So by "offline" you don't mean "disconnected from my network"?
04:32<ratrace>you run debsums to check if a packaged binary is "off", can't trust it. debsums could be compromised. you do it manually, width md5. nope, same concern. you use `ls`... nah, same thing....
04:32<ratrace>FelixActually: no, I mean booted into a known secure and uncompromised system, mounting your rootfs and "scanning" it like that
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04:33<ratrace>mounting your rootfs _somewhere_. the point is not a single bit off of the potentially compromised system must be executed.
04:34<FelixActually>How likely do you think it is that the file I found in my home folder is from something malicious?
04:35<ratrace>some years ago, Firefox and Chromium were vulnerable to "drive-by" downloads of files into ~/Downloads/. files would just appear there, by virtue of visiting a website. it was exploitable expecting the user to open the file, being curious wth is that now. it worked.
04:36<ratrace>I don't know if that problem is fixed now in browsers. but that's one way to have files misteriously appear in your ~/Downloads/ at least.
04:36<FelixActually>Well presumably using cat to view a file won't do any execution even if that were the case, right?
04:36<FelixActually>It's just in my home folder though
04:37<FelixActually>Not any subfolder
04:37<ratrace>in theory, probably unlikely for cat, but in theory, a file can be crafted to exploit bugs even in readonly...readers.
04:37<ratrace>FelixActually: what programs are you running? what program is mentioned in that file?
04:37<FelixActually>A jigsaw puzzle game called palapeli
04:38<ratrace>I've seen (steam) games pollute the eff out of the ~/ . I've seen nvidia drop funny files there. I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire..... :))
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04:38<FelixActually>The game came from Debian's repositories
04:38<ratrace>FelixActually: is it possible the file belongs to the game?
04:39<FelixActually>I have no idea
04:39<FelixActually>I need to go AFK a bit, hold on
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05:14<FelixActually>ratrace: So any idea?
05:17<ratrace>FelixActually: well, what I would do, and what I do do for steam games, is build an apparmor profile. even if you're not familiar with building AA profile, the mere act of using aa-genprof to build one in complain mode, could suffice to find if the game creates the file
05:17<FelixActually>The file has a creation date which I don't think is consistent with when I've opened the program though
05:18<ratrace>alternatively you could use auditctl or maybe inotifywait on the file to see which process will attempt to open it
05:19<FelixActually>What package is auditctl part of?
05:21<ratrace>`auditd`
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05:22<FelixActually>Okay
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05:23<FelixActually>What if no process tries to open it though?
05:23<ratrace>you could also chown 000 the file and chattr +i and see which program will fail :)
05:23<ratrace>FelixActually: then it's near impossible to tell post-hoc what created it
05:24<FelixActually>I was going to just try deleting it then opening Palapeli to see if it gets recreated
05:24<FelixActually>But is there a risk with deleting it?
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05:26<ratrace>who knows. could be a trigger file. you dleete it, and a monster process perks up, starts rampaging through your system. only half-joking :) if you don't know what a file is or does, then you can't know what would happen if you removed it.
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05:28<FelixActually>So is there any way I can find out whether or not my system is infected?
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05:31<ratrace>FelixActually: you can use that rkhunter thingy, definitely from another booted environment with your rootfs mounted, but it'll likely produce no results, which definitely does not mean you're not "infected"
05:32<jm_>ratrace: haven't really use apparmor yet, so trying to understand - you said you use aa-genprof; so is the idea that you have a restricted environment and you use this tool to find out which exceptions you need to add for games?
05:33<ratrace>jm_: aa-genprof is the convenience tool that creates an empty profile and starts your program and after you're doing using it in any way possible, it will inspect the denial logs (which was just being logged, in complain mode, no restrictions), and create rules interactively (it'll ask you for each, what to do about it)
05:34<jm_>ratrace: yeah I understood that part from the man page - I am wondering if this is a safe thing to do if there are no generic restrict rules in place?
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05:35<ratrace>jm_: "safe" in what context?
05:35<jm_>ratrace: as an example, running an app as root and it would install a compromised file somewhere
05:36<ratrace>FelixActually: unfortunately it's very difficult to find out if a system is compromised _after_ it's been compromised. you need specialized tools with known exploit signatures, similar to rkhunter, but up to date and with actual experience based databases
05:36<jm_>i.e. wondering if using aa-genprof would help in such scenario
05:36<FelixActually>So what would you suggest I do ratrace?
05:37<ratrace>jm_: definitely. one important point of a MAC framework (Mandatory Access Control) that AA is, is to reduce "root" to mere unprivileged users, for filesystem and some other syscalls.
05:37<jm_>ratrace: ok thanks, need to look into it
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05:37<ratrace>FelixActually: I'd start by trying to find what created it, what would create it if I deleted it and/or what would open it.
05:38<FelixActually>I don't know how I'd do the first thing
05:38<FelixActually>And like I said before, I'm kind of fearful
05:38<FelixActually>As you said, it's not impossible deleting it could trigger something if it is from a virus or whatever
05:39<ratrace>you said that a game is mentioned in it, right? it's highly likely you're not compromised, but the game is dumb and pollutes your ~/ . wouldn't be the first to do that.
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05:39<ratrace>FelixActually: you can't dismantle a bomb without risking it going off :) so you can do nothing or try to dismantle the bomb. as always, in any scenario, you should have backups for data you can't re-create easily.
05:39<FelixActually>Maybe so, but I don't think I launched the game on the day it was created; and why is the filename so weird?
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05:40<jm_>try launching the game as another user, see what happens
05:41<ratrace>FelixActually: you probably mean "modified", not created timestamp which needs newer coreutils
05:41<FelixActually>I'll have to create another user for that but okay
05:41<FelixActually>Oh, yeah. It is the modified timestamp
05:42<ratrace>so the correlation is insignificant; could've been created who knows when and not necessarily modified last time you played it.
05:42<ratrace>as a simple test you could chown 000 it, and start the game, see what happens.
05:42<ratrace>eh... chmod 000 and chown to... root. make sure it's not setuid :)
05:43<FelixActually>What would that do?
05:44<ratrace>prevent the game started as your user, from opening, reading, modifying the file.
05:44<FelixActually>Could that trigger anything?
05:45<ratrace>no idea. probably not. like I said, I was only half-joking. yes, it's possible "trigger" files would exist. but what's the alternative? stop using that computer?
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05:47<FelixActually>I could reinstall Debian
05:48<ratrace>and without understanding what created or used the file, end up in the same situation again.
05:49<FelixActually>I could try AppArmor
05:51<ratrace>FelixActually: jm_'s advice is also one of the quick ways to see if the game creates teh file. create user, give it access to xorg via xhost +SI:localuser:that_username_here ; su -l to that_username and start the game
05:51<ratrace>won't hve audio without massaging pulseaudio config, but that shouldn't matter
05:51<FelixActually>Wait... huh?
05:52<FelixActually>I'm not sure what you mean by everything after "create user"
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05:52<FelixActually>Would that be if I'm in a text-only tty?
05:52<ratrace>no... wait, the game is not using the gpu?
05:52<ratrace>gpu/xorg/... ?
05:53<FelixActually>I have no idea
05:53<ratrace>is the game text only in the console, or does it have shiny graphics and audio
05:53<jm_>it's a KDE game, so must be
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05:54<FelixActually>The instructions you've given me, would they mean that the game starts as a window in my DE, but it's being run under that other user?
05:54<jm_>yes
05:54<ratrace>right, so to run the game as _another_ user, with a fresh clean new $HOME, in which the game would create teh same file, if the theory holds ... you need to give that user permission to run .... ooor... just login as that user from the login manager... heh. running programs as other users is what I normally do so just logging in as tha tuser never occurred to me hah
05:55<FelixActually>I wasn't aware that it was possible to do it the way you say
05:55<FelixActually>Which is why I was confused
05:55<FelixActually>But I guess I should've figured it out since sudo works on the same principle
05:55<ratrace>yeah sorry about that. that was in context of running programs as another user while you're logged in as your user
05:55<jm_>I use pam_xauth module to make that simpler :)
05:55<FelixActually>Well I didn't know it worked outside of a console/terminal I guess
05:55<ratrace>you don't need that. you can just login as that new use from the DM
05:56<FelixActually>Doing it your way would be more convenient though
05:56<FelixActually>Because I have a bunch of windows open
05:56<FelixActually>And the version of Plasma on Debian 10 doesn't seem to handle switching users very well
05:57<ratrace>okay then. so to run a xorg program as a user that's not your currently logged in user, you need to permit it to use the xorg socket. xhost +SI:localuser:<that username here> is teh command that permits, for that xorg session (no temporary config with just this command)
05:57<ratrace>the xhost(1) manpage explains what stuff means here
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06:02<FelixActually>Also Libreboot has support for only a few motherboards, right?
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06:27<alarith>Hi! I have a problem with the stability of my debian 10 and I'm not sure how to investigate it. Sometimes the UI mostly freezes, but I can still move my mouse around. I just can't click any buttons anymore. Switching to a console still works (e.g., ctrl+alt+F2). It doesn't seem to be application specific, so I don't know where to find more info on the error. Any ideas?
06:28<alarith>the problem happened maybe once in three months before, but more recently it happens more often. I use MATE as a desktop environment
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06:42<ratrace>alarith: I'd start with /var/log/Xorg.0.log for warnings or errors, also journalctl for errors and/or kernel messages
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07:19<alarith>Thanks ratrace! I found that my Xorg.0.log gets spammed with "Failed to get GBM bo for flip to new front." error messages and fixed that as described here: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1645553 But I'm not sure that is related
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07:19<alarith>I'll try and check next time it freezes if it contains some useful error messages
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07:20<ratrace>alarith: which GPU, which driver?
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07:22<alarith>it's integrated in my laptop (Thinkpad 13). lspci tells me: Intel Corporation HD Graphics 620 (rev 02) (prog-if 00 [VGA controller])
07:23<alarith>the driver is listed as i915
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07:32<ratrace>alarith: and you have the necessary firmware installed (I forgot which package it is)?
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07:42<alarith>yes, I have it installed. It is in firmware-misc-nonfree and listed in "modinfo i915"
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07:44<jm_>maybe also check session log
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09:52<chele>i am trying to check if about ~256 packages apt upgrade will cause problems to my machine. i use apt upgrade --dry-run but i don't really see what this upgrade would cause. am i asking too much from --dry-run? is there a way to simulate more accurately?
09:53<ratrace>not wihtout actually doing it.
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09:54<imMute>generally upgrading within a release is totally safe. have backups / a rollback plan if you're paranoid enough, but debian is pretty good about not breaking upgrades within a release (and even across releases for that matter)
09:55<ratrace>%s/totally/mostly/
09:55<chele>great. haha. that'll do
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09:58<bremner>how do you get 256 packages upgrading stable -> stable?
09:58<chele>sure
09:58<imMute>bremner: wait a long time between updates?
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09:59*bremner skeptical
09:59<grafik08>Does anybody know any good documentation on changing the Debian branding on the debian-installer I read this information: https://wiki.debian.org/Derivatives/Guidelines but I m still not too sure how to change it...
09:59<bremner>unless that long time includes a new stable release
09:59<bremner>grafik08: maybe try #debian-derivatives
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10:00<chele>some workmates think that if a system is working it shouldn't be touched.
10:01<bremner>what is the contents of /etc/debian_version before and after the upgrade?
10:02<amacater>grafik08 - You might also want to try the debian-mentors mailing list for general advice or ask in debian-boot on IRC as to which is the most appropriate channel
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10:02<bremner>I _think_ most people on debian-mentors are more interested in supporting debian
10:02<bremner>but it's been a while since I read the list
10:02<bremner>certainly that's the case in #debian-mentors
10:03<grafik08>Thanks @amacater and @bremner I will give them all a try..
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10:04<amacater>bremner: Yes, but they will help novice packagers (and they will also have a good clue as to where to send stuff that's off-topic for them).
10:05<bremner>amacater: I speak with first hand knowledge of #debian-mentors.
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10:05<bremner>that's why #packaging was created, to answer the "I want to do packaging, but not contribute to debian" questions
10:06<bremner>this isn't exactly one of those questions.
10:07<amacater>bremner: Agreed. Debian-mentors mailing list is a good first start for folks new to Debian packaging
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10:29<sychill>i have policykit-1 installed, but when i try to run with root privs, it says i'm not authorized to run as another user
10:29<sychill>yet i'm in the sudo group
10:29<sychill>any other steps needed?
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10:37<Sqrt{not}>sychill, what command are you trying?
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10:38<sychill>pkexec --user root terminator
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10:43<sychill>i'm trapped because gksudo was dropped
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10:43<sychill>gksudo was something that "just worked"
10:43<Sqrt{not}>you may be getting the error from gnome and/or whatever X server equivalent you are running. usually those don't like to have root shared with regular user
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10:45<sychill>well pkexec is actually prompting for password in the terminal instead of graphically, which is a separate problem that i'll have to deal with next
10:45<sychill>but since it's prompting for pw in the terminal and giving the error in the terminal, i don't think it's a wayland/xwayland issue
10:46<Sqrt{not}>sychill, pkexec usually wants you to be in group "adm" for most of its permission checks.
10:46<sychill>well, OTOH, it says "AUTHENTICATING FOR org.freedesktop.policykit.exec", so maybe there is an xorg issue
10:48<Sqrt{not}>usually when you become root, it is for some specific task in a terminal, running graphical things as root is unusual
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10:49<sychill>in my case, that graphical thing i need to run as root is a terminal, with a color theme that makes it loud and clear that i'm root
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10:49<sychill>and inside that terminal, i have a separate screen session just for root
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10:50<Tj>group depends on what the config has: use this to check: " sudo grep -rn unix-group /var/lib/polkit-1 /etc/polkit-1/ /usr/share/polkit-1/ "
10:50<sychill>I see that an "adm" group exists on my system and my user acct is not in it. But then neither is root, which seems off
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10:50<Tj>but of course without sudo that command may fail :)
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10:52<sychill>/var/lib/polkit-1/localauthority/10-vendor.d/org.freedesktop.packagekit.pkla:2:Identity=unix-group:sudo
10:52<sychill>/etc/polkit-1/localauthority.conf.d/51-debian-sudo.conf:2:AdminIdentities=unix-group:sudo
10:53<sychill>does that mean users must be in the sudo group? If so, then there must be another problem because i'm already in the sudo group and sudo works
10:54<Tj>could be dbus related
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10:55<Tj>check /var/log/auth.log
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10:57<sychill>auth.log simply mirrors the same error given in the terminal, and also says: "Unregistered Authentication Agent for unix-process:1431:15434 (system bus name :1.40, object path /org/freedesktop/PolicyKit1/AuthenticationAgent, locale en_US.UTF-8)"
10:58<sychill>another line says: "Registered Authentication Agent for unix-process:1431:15434 (system bus name :1.40 [pkexec --user root terminator], object path /org/freedesktop/PolicyKit1/AuthenticationAgent, locale en_US.UTF-8)"
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11:00<sychill>not sure what it means to be "registered" or not, but it's saying it's registered on some lines and unregistered on others
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11:25<sychill>according to the man page for pkexec, it appears we must add a stanza to /usr/share/polkit-1/actions for every command that a user wants to run as another user
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11:31<Tj>sychill: generally not when the user is a member of the AdminIdentities=unix-group .
11:31<Tj>sychill: one thought - has your $USER always been a member of 'sudo' group or have you recently added $USER to sudo group?
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11:49<sychill>Tj: I had to manually make the user a member of the 'sudo' group, but i did that many reboot cycles ago, so i'm firmly in that group now
11:51<sychill>,v polkit-explorer
11:51<judd>No package named 'polkit-explorer' was found in amd64.
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12:06<sychill>it pissed me off that gksudo was dumped and that polkit doesn't "just work" as a drop-in replacement, thus forcing me to do some research just to maintain my same workflow.. but the more i look at this, the more sensible the move seems to be. Polkit is more of a scalpel, which is a good thing. I've been ignoring it but i guess it's time to study it.
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12:12<sychill>Tj: what is "unix-group"? it's not listed in /etc/group, yet there is "AdminIdentities=unix-group:sudo" in /etc/polkit-1/localauthority.conf.d/51-debian-sudo.conf
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12:12<Tj>sychill: it is the PK key
12:12<sychill>is that perhaps my problem? should there be a group named unix-group?
12:12<Tj>sychill: no
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12:13<Tj>sychill: see " man pklocalauthority "
12:14<imMute>sychill: I don't know polkit but it appears that AdminIdenties could refer to a number of things (like user names or group names), so in this case
12:15<imMute>sychill: I don't know polkit but it appears that AdminIdenties could refer to a number of things (like user names or group names), so in this case "<type>:<name>" so that it knows that "sudo" is referring to a UNIX group (and not something else like a username)
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12:29<Ares>hi! I want to make a web server for the local shops. I will need to authorize remote log in, what software can I use?
12:29<zaemi>I want to install virtualbox but I don't see it in apt
12:29<sney>!virtualbox
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12:29<dpkg>Oracle VM VirtualBox is <virtualization> software. Not in buster and unlikely to be in any future debian stable releases due to #794466. Unofficial backports are available as well as 3rd party packages from Oracle, see https://wiki.debian.org/VirtualBox to install; we recommend <virt-manager> instead. http://www.virtualbox.org/ #vbox on irc.oftc.net.
12:29<zaemi>thanks
12:29<zaemi>virt-manager?
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12:30<sney>it has basically the same functionality for running VMs from a gui, and it's actually free software with proper security support in stable versions
12:31<zaemi>hmmm
12:31<sney>virtualbox is not allowed in debian stable because Oracle refuses to backport security patches
12:31<Kolusion>You can download the latest VirtualBox package from it's website and not have to worry about Debian's repository.
12:31<sney>right, that option is in the wiki link in dpkg's message above
12:31<zaemi>is virt-manager more secure?
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12:31<zaemi>I am all about security.
12:32<zaemi>dammit!
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12:32<sney>virt-manager uses libvirt and qemu, which...
12:32<sney>welp
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12:35<Kolusion>Debian should drop 'GNU' from it's name. GNU doesn't even classify it as a GNU OS.
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12:38<Ares>hi! I want to make a web server for the local shops. I will need to authorize remote log in, what software can I use?
12:39<Kolusion>What will be logging into?
12:39<sychill>Kolusion: is FSF one of the Debian copyright holders?
12:39<Kolusion>Not sure
12:39<Ares>my server to install their software
12:40<Kolusion>Ares: You can use OpenSSH
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12:40<sney>Ares: there are a lot of extra steps and security considerations there. really, if you want to host websites for 3rd parties, you should have someone qualified set them up; giving retail managers etc. access to a public webserver is a great recipe for getting that webserver hacked
12:41<Ares>so what books should I read about?
12:41<Kolusion>Don't read books, find intuitive software.
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12:42<Kolusion>Well, I guess that was kind of a stupid thing for me to say for OpenSSH.
12:42<sney>and run your own webserver(s) in a test environment, or low traffic public sites, until you understand the steps and the components. set up wordpress and learn to secure it.
12:43<sney>there are lots of resources all over the internet, many of them are not totally authoritative, but you can put together a fairly complete understanding by looking at a few of them and experimenting with stuff
12:43<Kolusion>Check out OpenSSH documentation on Debian's website. It SHOULD be easy to learn.
12:44<sney>and yeah, ssh is the proper way to remotely administer a unix system, and *fairly* secure by default, but as soon as you have it listening on the public internet bots will be trying to break in
12:45<Ares>OpenSSH is easy, but the other stuff is what I don`t know
12:46<Ares>I would love to be able to read a book of how is done
12:46<sney>!handbook
12:46<dpkg>The Debian Administrator's Handbook is at http://debian-handbook.info/ and can be browsed, bought and downloaded. From Debian 7 "Wheezy" onwards, it can also be installed from the debian-handbook package. Also ask me about <books> <docs>. PDF at https://debian-handbook.info/download/stable/debian-handbook.pdf
12:46<sney>but still, the best teacher is experience
12:46<zleap>:)
12:47<Ares>thank you ! experience and back up
12:47<Ares>:D
12:48<Ares>If I want to learn to code for debian, to become a package maintainer one day what should I learn?
12:49<zleap>Ares, you could join the debian-academy channel, we are working on that
12:49<zleap> #debian-academy
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12:50<sney>the administrator's handbook for that too, plus at least 1 programming language, and try to use debian often so that you are familiar with how it works and how the packages integrate with each other
12:51<zleap>i think will the administrators handbook be updated to Debian 11
12:52<zleap>sorry I was asking if it will be updated for Debian 11 ?
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12:52<sney>I would imagine so
12:52<Ares>I tried to connect to #debian-academy but does not want to connect to that channel
12:53<sney>you should register your nickname with oftc, some channels are closed to unregistered users
12:53<sney>type '/msg nickserv help register' in your irc client for instructions
12:54<zleap>that could be it
12:54<zleap>sorry about that
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12:57<sney>zleap: the handbook is indeed being updated for bullseye, you can see the progress on salsa: https://salsa.debian.org/hertzog/debian-handbook
12:58<zleap>cool
12:58<sney>the buster handbook came out a while after buster was released, so I think we can predict some delay here too, but hopefully only a short one
12:58<zleap>I should buy a copy (granted it costs quite a bit) hence it may be better to get the bullseye copy when out
12:58<Ares>https://services.oftc.net/login says login but I don`t have a username and pass
12:59<sney>I have a paper copy of the Jessie version somewhere
12:59<sney>Ares: that's because you need to query nickserv, asi I said. <sney> type '/msg nickserv help register' in your irc client for instructions
13:00<Ares>log in with your -NickServ- password
13:00<Ares>I don`t have one
13:01<sney>you create irc accounts from irc.
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13:06<sychill>problem with the docs at https://wiki.debian.org/PolicyKit: the example says to create a pkla file, named as: /etc/polkit-1/localauthority/50-local.d/manage-units.pkla. But that file assumes there is an action defined for "org.freedesktop.systemd1.manage-units". There is not.
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13:08<sychill>so is the example incomplete, or is "org.freedesktop.systemd1.manage-units" really supposed to be already defined?
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13:08<jhutchins>sychill: What release are you using?
13:08<sychill>bullseye
13:11<zleap>i am on bullseye (11) now
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13:11<zleap>fresh install yesterday :)
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13:11<jmcnaught>sychill: org.freedesktop.systemd1.manage-units is defined in /usr/share/polkit-1/actions/org.freedesktop.systemd1.policy
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13:14<sychill>ah, i didn't realize multiple actions shared a file like that. i was looking for a file with "manage-units" in the filename
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13:16<jmcnaught>Why not just use su/sudo in a terminal? Why does the terminal emulator need to run as root?
13:16<sychill>the complexity of letting a user run "pkexec terminator" is crazy. IIUC, I have to create an XML stanza to define an action, then create a pkla file to reference that
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13:17<sychill>jmcnaught: i need to either launch from within a script or from a Sway commandline
13:17<sychill>(comparable to alt-f2 in gnome)
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13:19<sychill>the gnome equivalent would be something roughly like "alt-f2 gksudo terminator -c 'screen -c /root/gnuscreen.conf'"
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13:21<sychill>no that gksudo is gone, pkexec is the only way to do this it seems
13:21<sychill>s/no/now/
13:22<ckosloff>I asked for help mwith thunderbird errors, I would like to mention that I found a workaround for the problem of folders not displaying content.Right click on folder, select properties, click on Repair Folder, that will display content but it is not permanent.
13:23<jmcnaught>sychill: did you read pkexec(1)? It has an example rule for running a specific command.
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13:23<jmcnaught>sychill: when something is this difficult, sometimes you need to consider if it is the wrong way.
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13:24<sychill>i'll have to reread that.. it wasn't clear but i read it before reading man polkit and man pklocalauthority
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13:25<sychill>where something is launched from makes a difference
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13:25<sychill>if I launch the root terminal from a user screen session, then the root terminal has the user's gnu screen session as the parent process
13:25<jmcnaught>sychill: the synaptic package has a polkit action policy for launching it as root. Note that in GNOME/Wayland at least synaptic and others cannot run as root. This could be the same in sway if the limitation is Wayland.
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13:30<sychill>well, maybe i should install synaptic then
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13:35<ckosloff>I am trying to join debian-kde, but is asks for password, I did not need any password to join this channel
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13:36<sychill>or maybe i should install synaptic, copy the changes it makes to /*/polkit-1/*, then remove it
13:36<jmcnaught>Or see if synaptic will even run as root in your set up first.
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13:39<xace>was updating from stretch to buster, now sudo apt-get dist-upgrade yields: https://0x0.st/-Okl.txt
13:40<sychill>it's interesting that when i do "apt-file list synaptic" the list shows: "synaptic: /usr/share/polkit-1/actions/com.ubuntu.pkexec.synaptic.policy"
13:40<sychill>that's a ubuntu thing in debian
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13:42<amacater>xace - you could try dpkg -a / apt-get dist-upgrade --fix-missing
13:43<amacater>dpkg -C
13:43<dpkg>amacater: I don't know, could you explain it?
13:43<amacater>the dpkg command that unpacks and installs packages that aren't fully configured yet ...
13:45<xace>amacater: thanks, it worked by a similiar command i found on google
13:46<amacater>xace: Great
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13:49<Ares000>I verified my identity
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13:50<Ares000>thank you!
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13:53<Ares000>debian has millions of lines of code, where should I start learning?
13:54<scorpion2185[m]>was Ian Murdock killed by police?
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13:54<amacater>Ares000: ... the library has 10,000 books - where should I start reading - what interests you, what do you want to know?
13:55<bremner>scorpion2185[m]: that's not on topic here. #debian-offtopic welcomes your conspiracy questions
13:55<bremner>fsvo "welcomes"
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13:57<scorpion2185[m]>what is the best reader for .mobi or .epub? The pdf is nicer
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13:57<Ares000>where do I find the library?
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13:59<bremner>scorpion2185[m]: mupdf can read epub.
14:00<Ares000>I am really sorry but when I have such big projects I don`t know what to do
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14:00<amacater>What I meant was: What do you want to use Debian for? Where do you want to start? You don't have to learn to read code: I do suggest the debian-handbook Debian package (or you can read it online)
14:00<Ares000>do you thin having such a big library of code in an issue or not really?
14:00<scorpion2185[m]>I opened with fbreader (e-book reader) the epub and it doesn't have the better layout of the pdf version. is this normal?
14:00<bremner>Ares000: as opposed to what? a computer from the 1980s?
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14:01<bremner>scorpion2185[m]: sure. epub is basically html
14:01<scorpion2185[m]>same for .mobi?
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14:01<bremner>mobi I don't know, I thought that was only for some specific devices
14:02<scorpion2185[m]>is there a pdf reader that can reverse color? dark mode to have black instead of white
14:02<Ares000>I would like to have proper documentation for all the packages available and to set up a web server and maybe a mobile app development environement
14:02<Ares000>and help you create something maybe
14:03<Ares000>what is the most used programming language here?
14:04<sychill>scorpion2185[m]: xpdf and okular can be configured with different colors. I find black on white harsh for night reading, so i've set the background to wheat
14:04<amacater>Ares000 - there's documentation in the form of man pages, for example. Setting up a webserver is a couple of commands away - but I'd recommend reading the Debian Handbook perhaps https://debian-handbook.info/
14:05<amacater>Ares000 - Depends on who you ask: C / Python3 / shell scripting ...
14:05<sychill>of course, it doesn't work on PDFs of scanned documents. but vector PDFs are no problem
14:05<scorpion2185[m]>but also my pdf has night mode I thought that it doesn't not sure what it is
14:06<Ares000>are there more handbooks or is just 1?
14:06<scorpion2185[m]>500+ pages on that
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14:07<bremner>scorpion2185[m]: mupdf has inverted color rendering. It's not exactly night mode, but maybe it helps
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14:08<scorpion2185[m]>thanks now I am using evince and night seems good (Debian handbook :))
14:08<Ares000>how does it feel to maintain so many lines of code?
14:08<aloo_shu>updated now?
14:08<sychill>scorpion2185[m]: i'm surprised evince could accommodate. I was unable to set the colors of evince when I tried it a few years ago
14:08<aloo_shu>the handbook
14:08<Ares000>and what programming language should I learn>
14:08<Ares000>?
14:09<scorpion2185[m]>Me too if I remember right on stretch you cannot
14:10<scorpion2185[m]>not sure really
14:11<amacater>Ares000: These are such general questions that this may not be the right place to ask: this list is for support of users running the stable version of Debian. You may want something more like #debian-offtopic
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14:12<Ares000>thank you
14:12<sney>Ares000: at this point I would really recommend taking some notes when you ask questions, so that this time you remember: to learn debian administration, read the debian handbook and practice practice practice; and a good programming language to start with is python
14:12<Ares000>thank you sney
14:12<sychill>back in the day you could centralize the color configs of all your apps in your x11 settings, but that seems to have lost popularity so you have to look through the settings of each app individually
14:13<scorpion2185[m]>with mupdf there is the better layout of the PDF!
14:13<scorpion2185[m]>with the epub
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14:18<Ares000>one last question today: the first time when I ask about a programming language to learn someone told me Lisp... Is that used or not really? am I losing my time with it or is ok to know it for Debian development?
14:19<Ares000>I am a new member so sorry, I need to start somewhere and to know what you like to use so I can help maybe
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14:22<sney>Ares000: lisp is taught in SICP, which is a famous computer science textbook, and some free courses on MIT's website. it can also be a good place to start.
14:22<sychill>synaptic does not have a polkit policy for running a terminal, only for running itself. I guess the terminals that run as root automatically inherit the privs from the parent synaptic process
14:22<sney>Ares000: however, I still recommend python, because it's actually used for a lot of modern applications. once you learn python, you can start making programs right away. once you learn lisp, you would have to apply your lisp knowledge to (quickly) learn other languages before you start making anything useful
14:23<Ares000>love you sney! thank you so much!
14:23<sney>Ares000: but either one works - the point is to learn programming fundamentals and concepts, and once you understand that, any language is in your grasp
14:23<jmcnaught>MIT OCW also has a Python intro to computer science free course
14:23<alex11>python is also known for code readability, which is an asset as a beginner
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14:25<sychill>Ares000: not usre why someone suggested Lisp as a learning language. It's quite obscure and different from other languages, and the excessive use of paranthesis is maddening and makes the code hard to read.
14:25<sychill>s/usre/sure/
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14:26<scorpion2185[m]>I also intalled mupdf-tools but isn't it already a CLI? what is added?
14:27<zleap>hi
14:27<zleap>i managed to find a gui option the other day to get a 2nd hard disk to mount so I could write to it, using debian 11 and xfce4
14:27<jmcnaught>scorpion2185[m]: "dpkg -L mupdf-tools" to see what files it installed
14:27<zleap>not sure what I used as i just 'happened' on the right thing that worked
14:28-!-mode/#debian [+l 1012] by debhelper
14:28<sychill>Ares000: do you have a goal in mind? Pascal comes to mind because it's a quite readable compiled language and it was designed specifically for teaching programming. But it's not used in industry. Ada has similar readability characteristics to Pascal but has /some/ practical use industry. And Ada also teaches you discipline.
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14:29<scorpion2185[m]>ah the command is mutool
14:29<Ares000>I did learn some ansi C in my high school but i did just math with it, no any low code as drivers, no any advanced code. I did learn Pascal and I made a Delphy project as well 15 years ago but I think those languages are not used anymore
14:29<Ares000>I don`t know exactly this is why I am asking
14:30<scorpion2185[m]>also man mutool and not man mupdf-tools
14:30<amacater>Ares000: If you've done _some_ programming, however long ago - maybe start with Python3
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14:31<Ares000>I know some programming logic and electronics but I don`t know where to start with you, it was 15 years ago, I did radio transmissions in the army...
14:31<Ares000>thank you ¬
14:31<Ares000>!
14:32<eight>Ares000: If you are looking to learn computer science as a whole, then I would recommend SICP with Racket. If you are looking to something practical, then I would recommend playing around with MicroPython on ESP8266/ESP32
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14:33<Ares000>I will try! Thank you @eight
14:33<eight>I feel that they are better than the usual learn Python syntax then make stupid programs like hangman or the famous book that I forget the name
14:33<eight>Good luck
14:35<sychill>i've seen some pretty cryptic Python, so you might want to find a guide that avoids more bizarre constructs
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14:58<sychill>fuck yeah! finally was able to run "pkexec terminator". Indeed i needed to construct an XML config file and a pkla file, and i had to run "xhost +si:localuser:root". I appreciate everyone's help.
14:59<sychill>nice thing is it doesn't even need me to enter a password
15:00<sychill>so the setup was far more complex than the old gksudo way, but it's more convenient in the long run to not have to enter a pw
15:00<jhutchins>Ares000: Whoever told you to learn lisp was pulling your leg. The original purpose of lisp was to use in computer since classess to show the common logic of programming.
15:01<jhutchins>Ares000: Great theory, but I know of few if any functional programs that use it.
15:02<amacater>Ares000: if you want to extend the internals of the Emacs editor, its programmed in elisp - which is a Lisp derivative - but is very old now and barely worth learning
15:02<jhutchins>sychill: I've seen cryptic, obfuscated bash scripts. Anybody can write bad code. Unfortunately, some do so on purpose.
15:03<alex11>yeah if someone actually *wants* to learn a bit of emacs then i'm sure elisp is worth investing time in
15:03<alex11>but i do probably recommend python before anything else
15:03<jhutchins>alex11: Yeah, but his goal isn't learning emacs.
15:04<imMute>sychill: couldn't you setup sudo access for your user and not require a password? why does the terminal emulator also have to run as root?
15:04<sychill>jhutchins: i didn't mean creative obfuscation by the user. I meant that the Python language includes constructs that are inherently cryptic (there is no non-cryptic way to use them)
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15:04<alex11>my statement was a general one
15:06<sychill>imMute: when the terminal emulator runs as root it ensures that everything running in that terminal also run as root, such as new tabs. If the terminal emulator runs as a normal user, they must sudo in each tab for example
15:07<imMute>sychill: sounds like a feature.
15:07<sychill>imMute: I use colors to make sure my root and user environments are unmistakably different.
15:07<sychill>it's in part for safety as well as convenience.
15:08<imMute>to each their own. I prefer always using sudo so it's obvious what parts run as root and which parts don't (and I try to do as much as possible as non-root)
15:08<jmcnaught>Maybe you could have changed root's $PS1 prompt if you wanted a visual difference?
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15:08<sychill>imMute: i have a user terminal running as well for all user commands
15:09<imMute>now you don't have a complete log of what commands you ran. some of it is in the user's history and the rest is in root's.
15:10<sychill>imMute: my histories don't get mixed up. My user history is only user commands, and root's history only shows root's commands
15:11<sychill>but gnu screen screws with the history and i've not tried to get a handle on that. It seems one screen window commands are kept across reboots while others are not
15:12<jhutchins>sychill: Make sure you close each window before you reboot. Bash history is only written on logout.
15:12<sychill>imMute: i would think you would have a problem with the commands in the wrong history. When you run "sudo foo" as a user, isn't that stored in the user's history not roots?
15:13<sychill>jhutchins: ah, thanks for the tip
15:13<imMute>sychill: it's not screen, it's that each bash process writes the history when it exits. so the last one to exit get's the history written (overwriting the changes from the other shells)
15:13<jhutchins>imMute: I dpm
15:13<imMute>sychill: yes, it's stored in the user history. so I can look at *one* history and see *all* the commands I ran, in the correct order.
15:13<imMute>jhutchins: dpm?
15:14<jhutchins>imMute: I don't believe that sessions running under screen are logged out when screen is killed, I think they're just killed.
15:15<imMute>jhutchins: that could be. I've not looked that closely at it. but if *one* of them gets saved, what I said would be most likely the reason why
15:15<imMute>jhutchins: I would guess that SIGTERM is passed to all the shell instances and they gracefully exit (dunno if that's different than "logout" or not)
15:16<jhutchins>imMute: Yes, it's different.
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15:17<imMute>shows how much I know about shells I guess.
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15:22<sussudio>the three shells?
15:22<omegatron>yes, THOSE shells
15:23<jmcnaught>Does bash get a different signal than SIGTERM if you close the terminal emulator window? Because in that case the history is written.
15:23<sychill>jmcnaught: i think i tried altering the $PS1 prompt. I don't recall the issue exactly but I think the background colors didn't work right
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15:25<Ares000>amacater, jhutchins thank you!
15:28<sychill>jmcnaught: not sure, but it wouldn't help in the case of gnu screen because screen keeps the sessions alive. killing the terminal window just causes the screen sessions to become detached.
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15:29<sychill>..and that's a great thing. If your machine crashes and the screen session is remote, you can re-attach when after you recover
15:30<imMute>sychill: I think jmcnaught was talking about if you just have a plain shell running in the terminal emulator tab and you close the tab - what does that bash instance get for a signal and what does it do as a response.
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15:39<jmcnaught>The answer to my question appears to be SIGHUP
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15:50<xgpt>hello! I'm curious about noSQL options on debian considering mongodb and couchdb don't seem to be in official repos, any recommendations for NoSQL that are available within the official repos?
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15:52<xgpt>:/
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15:53<omegatron>was this some ad-bot or what?
15:53<alex11>literally 2 minutes
15:53<sney>they were in libera #debian asking the same thing. no patience
15:54<omegatron>*sigh*
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15:55<quadrat>hm, are there nosql options in debian?
15:55<sarnold>that was two minutes longer than some.. heh
15:55<imMute>quadrat: I found redis.
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15:55<sney>whitedb is listed in apt search, no idea as to quality
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15:59<quadrat>thanks, so seems like outside of redis none other
16:01<sarnold>lmdb
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16:15<Kolusion>Was looking for amacater.. will come back another day
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16:54<Guest590>What's a good firewall utility in debian nowadays? I used to use shorewall a long time ago and liked the way it's configured, but it seems to not have much of a future as it's iptables only
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16:54<ratrace>I switched from shorewal to plain iptables, hand written files in /etc/iptables/ for iptables-persistent package
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16:56<Guest590>What I liked from shorewall is sane defaults and the zone-based syntax with no configuration overhead
16:56<sney>if you're starting fresh, you may as well learn nftables syntax so you don't have to migrate when netfilter eventually deprecates iptables
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16:57<Guest590>sney: yeah, I'm looking into that, just wondering if there's something like shorewall was to iptables
16:57<Guest590>I took a look into firewalld and didn't like it
16:57<sney>I think firewalld fills that niche currently
16:57<sney>yeah
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16:57<NthDegree>ufw is a valid option too
16:57<Guest590>XML/command line configuration only irks me
16:58<NthDegree>ufw stores the rules as comments next to equivalent iptables rules, so when iptables goes EOL, ufw will seamlessly migrate
16:58<Guest590>I like being able to just cat a couple of files and understand the rules
16:58<NthDegree>ufw uses iptables-save/iptables-restore like syntax with comments above
16:58<Guest590>NthDegree: but does it support nftables?
16:59<NthDegree>Last I checked it just uses iptables but when nftables is the only option, your ufw rules will end up seamlessly migrated
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17:00<NthDegree>because they abstract away the layers for you provided you stick to using the basic functionality it offers
17:02<imMute>sney: fwiw, netfilter is the filering in the kernel, iptables and nftables are APIs for netfilter.
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17:03<sney>imMute: netfilter.org is also the upstream for both toolsets, and the ones in charge of deprecating one in favor of the other.
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17:25<quadrat>Guest590 last time I looked, the guy behind ufw, didn't want to port it over to nftables _shrug_ that's why I transitioned to nftables directly
17:26<cmm11>firewalld is a nice alternative to ufw
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17:32<echoSMILE>After an upgrade is there the possibility to ipv6 been activated and firewall rules being altered?
17:33<sney>echoSMILE: unlikely, but depends on how those things were configured prior to the upgrade.
17:33<sney>what debian version is this, what upgrade are you referring to, and how is your firewall configured?
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17:37<echoSMILE>sney: from the previous version to the last one 10.10. The firewall is a script with the rules.
17:38<sney>from 10.9 to 10.10?
17:38<echoSMILE>yes
17:38<sney>there should definitely not be any networking changes from a point release, can you provide more details about what happened?
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17:39<echoSMILE>sney: basically one day to another, ipv6 was activated and iptables policies changed to ACCEPT
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17:39<echoSMILE>weird, the script for fw the policies are drop
17:40<echoSMILE>and the ipv6 still is ignored at network manager (at xfce)
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17:46<dvs>,info iptables-persistent
17:46<judd>Package iptables-persistent (admin, optional) in buster/amd64: boot-time loader for netfilter rules, iptables plugin. Version: 1.0.11+deb10u1; Size: 11.5k; Installed: 42k
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17:48<echoSMILE>dvs: what about the policies ?
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17:49<dvs>echoSMILE: How did you save the policies?
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17:50<echoSMILE>I didn't save anything, I just execute the script manually
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17:50<echoSMILE>dvs: not sure how the rules are there, but policies are accept.
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18:16<pgimeno>is it possible to prevent the update system from replacing a single file in /usr/bin?
18:16<pgimeno>like holding a package, except that it's a single file of a package
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18:24<sney>!divert
18:24<dpkg>Don't try to convince dpkg to overwrite files and don't start playing with "--force" options for dpkg. Instead, "divert" one of the files out of the way so that there is no conflict. See man dpkg-divert and also http://www.debian.org/doc/debian-policy/ap-pkg-diversions.html. Working with the package management system is much easier than trying to work against it.
18:24<sney>pgimeno: ^
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18:30<pgimeno>sney: thanks, trying to understand how that works. For example I have a "diversion of /usr/bin/firefox to /usr/bin/firefox.real by firefox-esr", but I don't have any /usr/bin/firefox.real. When I next install a package with Firefox, will the main executable be named firefox.real?
18:32<sney>I think so, I haven't tried it in a while
18:32<ratrace>pgimeno: yes, I think that means what the package _would_ install as /usr/bin/firefox it _will_ (divert to and) install as /usr/bin/firefox.real
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18:33<pgimeno>here's the thing, the program clear_console that comes with bash is causing me big issues and I've replaced it with a symbolic link to /bin/true. If I add a diversion for it, will it never be replaced by the original again?
18:35<ratrace>that's how I understand diversions work
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18:37<pgimeno>ok, thank you very much, let's hope that's the case
18:39<pgimeno>thanks again to both
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22:01<quadrat>is there a way to include more repos when debootstrapping? (i would like to add the security, update and backports repo)
22:03<sussudio>!debootstrap
22:03<dpkg>debootstrap can create a basic Debian system from scratch, without apt/dpkg. Useful for installing in a <chroot>. It is key to installing Debian GNU/Linux from a Unix/Linux system. http://wiki.debian.org/Debootstrap - https://www.debian.org/releases/buster/amd64/apds03.en.html
22:04<sarnold>quadrat: I've heard good things about https://gitlab.mister-muffin.de/josch/mmdebstrap/
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22:07<quadrat>sarnold thanks :) but why not in repos :/
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22:13<b1ackandwh1te>iv been away for a long time. good to see irc is still up, despite is old tech (with all respect)
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22:13<dvs>but the other one has changed drastically
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22:22<themill>quadrat: mmdebstrap is in Debian
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22:23<quadrat>themill oops, thanks, was searching for mmdebootstrap :(
22:23<sarnold>oh! I was only looking for mmdebootstrap, no wonder I couldn't spot it :) heh
22:27<mason>quadrat: If you wanted to stick to core debootstrap, easy enough to do that, and then chroot in for the additions.
22:28<mason>That said, mmdebstrap seems kind of nice, reading about it.
22:29<b1ackandwh1te>you gentleman correct me if necessary. although freenode is a useful cool irc network, ...it is here in OFTC that exists channels where development is taken serious.... i saw it somewhere
22:29<mason>b1ackandwh1te: s/freenode/libera/
22:29<sney>b1ackandwh1te: oftc is mostly specific to debian development
22:29<mason>b1ackandwh1te: There's Debian support on both, but more development on OFTC
22:30<sney>plenty of real projects do serious development on libera, and formerly freenode
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22:35<b1ackandwh1te>I plan for near future do LPIC1 and 2
22:36<b1ackandwh1te>even that I can do the basics in debian there is always more in front
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22:38<b1ackandwh1te>I was other time picking up what to install using synaptic package manager... the list of options is monstruous
22:38<sney>something in between being a newbie, and getting a professional certification:
22:38<sney>!handbook
22:38<dpkg>The Debian Administrator's Handbook is at http://debian-handbook.info/ and can be browsed, bought and downloaded. From Debian 7 "Wheezy" onwards, it can also be installed from the debian-handbook package. Also ask me about <books> <docs>. PDF at https://debian-handbook.info/download/stable/debian-handbook.pdf
22:40<b1ackandwh1te>there is a long road to I consider myself professional.
22:41<sney>ask yourself what the P in LPIC stands for
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22:43<b1ackandwh1te>might I turn me professional in Debian but not RedHAt, Suse etc?
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22:44<sney>once you understand linux/unix fundamentals, it's easy to apply that to any OS in the family
22:44<b1ackandwh1te>I already know the package managers are different LOL
22:44<mason>b1ackandwh1te: You're best off learning about all of them. It's a rare environment that doesn't have some of each.
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22:45<mason>b1ackandwh1te: My favourite advice used to be getting a copy of the Unix Systems Administration Handbook https://admin.com/ but it's maybe a little long in the tooth. Still well worthwhile to learn quite a bit.
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22:45<mason>One nice thing it'll do is give you the right mode of thinking about systems administration, which is important.
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22:50<b1ackandwh1te>I am very enthusiastic in learn more Linux and be also system administrator (because I am already a programmer).
22:51<mason>b1ackandwh1te: Maybe find a used copy of that book. You can probably get one for a song on eBay or similar.
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22:53<b1ackandwh1te>mason, if you find the 'pearl' in pdf for www download let me know friend. :)
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22:53<mason>b1ackandwh1te: Dunno, I've only ever looked for it in dead tree form. There are good references online. The Debian Handbook sney linked is good.
22:55<b1ackandwh1te>well. let me enter now in a more 'dark' theme, shall I?
22:56<b1ackandwh1te>I am very moved to secure centric technologies....
22:57<b1ackandwh1te>people I beg your sincerity to my following question...
22:58-!-mode/#debian [+l 982] by debhelper
22:58<b1ackandwh1te>Is there a even smallest possibility of backdoor code in debian?
22:59-!-madez [~madez@ip-176-198-251-181.hsi05.unitymediagroup.de] has quit [Quit: .]
22:59<mason>b1ackandwh1te: Here, read this: https://users.ece.cmu.edu/~ganger/712.fall02/papers/p761-thompson.pdf
23:00<sarnold>b1ackandwh1te: absolutely, there's tens of thousands of packages
23:01<sarnold>b1ackandwh1te: some are huge and under constant churn; some are tiny and haven't changed in decades (okay I'm guessing, here)
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23:07<b1ackandwh1te>I see grate danger nowadays of brillinat kids and young smart asses. because I believe in the spirit of little crimes in the young minds....
23:08<sarnold>sure, kids will be kids; there's always someone who'll find it more fun to cause havoc than build cool things
23:08<b1ackandwh1te>you know: to break the security for fun....
23:08<sarnold>but most people are good most of the time, otherwise we'd be living vastly different lives
23:09-!-chuangzhu [~chuangzhu@0002c2e8.user.oftc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
23:09<b1ackandwh1te>I agree sarnold
23:09<sarnold>but most troublemakers grow up and grow out of it
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23:09<sarnold>and quite often, they'll use the experience they gained in their misbegotten youth to inform how they can make the world a better place
23:10<sarnold>not always, of course
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23:25<b1ackandwh1te>to be deeply sincere, I turn myself unconfortable with all security issue. Mainly because the reality of US surveilance agencies invading ANYTHING in name of national security...
23:27<sarnold>meh, I think your larger problems are going to be (a) if you leave ssh password authentication enabled (b) run of the mill coding mistakes
23:29<b1ackandwh1te>do remmina needs ssh server?
23:29<sarnold>what's that?
23:30<sarnold>oh, RDP thing, probably not
23:30<sarnold>same question goes there :) don't use password authentication with that, either
23:30<sarnold>use keys
23:30<b1ackandwh1te>https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remmina
23:32<b1ackandwh1te>sarnold, do you say keys that are stored in usb stick sortof that?
23:34<sarnold>b1ackandwh1te: or in you ~/.ssh/ directory
23:34<sarnold>as youi wish
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23:36<b1ackandwh1te>I apologize to mention windows, but recently I used a software fantastic called USB Raptor, I create with it a usb device to login windows easy as a car key.
23:38<sussudio>would the raptor eat your mouse driver
23:38<sarnold>poor little mouse :(
23:38<alex11>mentioning windows? that's a paddlin'.
23:38<sarnold>hehe
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23:44<b1ackandwh1te>what I like in the Linux community is the frindship spirit all around.
23:46<alex11>you can say that about any community before discovering the ugliness :P
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23:50<b1ackandwh1te>because we are gettng close to the quantum limitation of making smaller and faster cpus, the massification of cores is the present and the future. massive core count.
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---Logclosed Fri Jul 16 00:00:04 2021