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#debian IRC Logs for 2021-07-17

---Logopened Sat Jul 17 00:00:14 2021
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00:13<craigevil>the release notes can be followed to upgrade to bullseye
00:16<craigevil> change it to your arch and language
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06:45<jabber>Hello all, I'm wondering if it's possible or advisable to track 'stable' in my sources.list instead of buster? So when next-stable becomes stable my system would just continue updating as normal via 'apt update && apt upgrade' or would I be introducing a lot of instability in my system? I can find online where people track 'testing' but not really evidence of people tracking 'stable' which makes me think it's not really done.
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06:49<koollman_>jabber: my opinion: don't. When stable change, you generally want to read the release notes, and follow the upgrade instructions
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06:50<jabber>@koollman thanks for the reply. Yes that makes sense, I felt I was probably seeking an unnecessary shortcut to a permanent debian desktop :)
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07:33<dpkg>If you have a question, just ask! For example: "I have a problem with ___; I'm running Debian version ___. When I try to do ___ I get the following output ___. I expected it to do ___." Don't ask if you can ask, if anyone uses it, or pick one person to ask. We're all volunteers; make it easy for us to help you. If you don't get an answer try a few hours later or on See <smart questions><errors>.
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08:16<pdfg37gdeqwf4>Hi, I download debian-live-10.10.0-amd64-standard.iso
08:17<pdfg37gdeqwf4>i try to install debian with this iso and use hd-media boot files
08:17<pdfg37gdeqwf4>if i use non gtk boot files all works
08:17<pdfg37gdeqwf4>if i use gtk boot files system crash on boot
08:18-!-mode/#debian [+l 973] by debhelper
08:19<pdfg37gdeqwf4>i got fatal server error
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08:35<NthDegree>pdfg37gdeqwf4: what kind of PC are you installing it on?
08:35<pdfg37gdeqwf4>amd 64 desktop
08:35<pdfg37gdeqwf4>8gb ram
08:36<NthDegree>what graphics card?
08:36<pdfg37gdeqwf4>if i use gtk files system crash on boot and i got fatal server error and debconf: gtk-warning cannot open dispay :0
08:38<NthDegree>Try an ISO from here:
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08:40<NthDegree>Those ISOs include firmware packages which don't come on the official ISOs and it might result in your card working as normal when booting into the installer
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08:42<amacater>You may also want the amd firmware - install firmware-linux-misc, perhaps
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08:42<pdfg37gdeqwf4>note : i use iso to boot from hdd with hd-media files
08:43<pdfg37gdeqwf4>where i can find hd-media files for nonfree iso?
08:43<NthDegree>Also, there's always Debian Bullseye, which is just around the corner, as that will have newer hardware support
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08:46<pdfg37gdeqwf4>i use this hd media files ""
08:47<amacater>Any particular reason to use hd-media?
08:48<pdfg37gdeqwf4>cuz u can install debian from iso from hdd only with hd-media files
08:48<NthDegree>You might have to do it using preseeding as noted in if you're stuck with hd-media as your only option
08:48<pdfg37gdeqwf4>or from live-session with calamares
08:49<NthDegree>However, if you have a removable hard disk or USB stick, you should probably use that instead
08:50<pdfg37gdeqwf4>sry i dont have free usb stick and i dont have dvd drive
08:50<NthDegree>or if you have a PC with UEFI support you might be able to bootstrap a system together
08:50<pdfg37gdeqwf4>sry i dont have uefi, only bios legacy
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08:51<NthDegree>in that case, use the non-gtk installer, it's friendly enough
08:51<amacater>bios legacy may sometimes be difficult with newer hardware which more or less expects UEFI to work properly
08:53<pdfg37gdeqwf4>will try this non free and brb
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08:53<NthDegree>amacater: is the old text-UI the same as it always has been still? (I haven't used it in looong time)
08:54<amacater>Yes, absolutely - it's fairly straightforward
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09:00<cpach>hi folks. is there anyone here who's fluent in postgresql? i'm about to install wiki.js. i have a db called 'wikidb' and a role called 'wikiadmin'. does anyone have a suggestion for how to grant the appropriate privilegies to 'wikiadmin'?
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09:53<pdfg37gdeqwf4>i tried nonfree iso images and agaon o gto error
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09:59<pdfg37gdeqwf4>help pls
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10:15<NthDegree>pdfg37gdeqwf4: you might wanna try Debian Testing, just in case it's a hardware support issue
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10:17*NthDegree forgot the shortcut to make dpkg talk about when bullseye will release
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10:17<Blendie>i will do this for the bot
10:17<Blendie>"when it's ready"
10:18<NthDegree>The current tentative release date for Debian+1 is meant to be 2021-07-31 but it might be a bit later than that
10:20<vv221>NthDegree, wwbr ;)
10:21<NthDegree>ah ^.^
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10:24<Sqrt{not}>pdfg37gdeqwf4, I don't understand the complicated way you are processing these .iso files.
10:25<Sqrt{not}>I ama reading the scrollback now. you are trying to avoid using a USB stick? Do you have a CD/DVD drive?
10:26<NthDegree>from what I can tell: no CD/DVD and no spare USB stick
10:26<pdfg37gdeqwf4>i dont have usb stick and dvd/cd drive
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10:29<NthDegree>is your old system running GRUB2?
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10:31<Sqrt{not}>pdfg37gdeqwf4, re: calamares installer, if you can boot into a live system with your setup, all the live systems *except* "standard" include the calamares installer, which should work if the live system works
10:32<pdfg37gdeqwf4><Sqrt{not}> calamares work from livesession, but i want install debian-standard
10:33<pdfg37gdeqwf4><NthDegree> yeah i use grub 2
10:35<Sqrt{not}>so you want to end up with no graphical desktop environment, you mean?
10:36<pdfg37gdeqwf4><Sqrt{not}> yeah i want instal onli cli lika debian-standard
10:36<NthDegree>pdfg37gdeqwf4: then why are you needing the graphical installer?
10:37<NthDegree>just install using the text UI instead surely? :|
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10:37<NthDegree>The text UI has the same workflow and options as the graphical installer
10:37<pdfg37gdeqwf4><NthDegree> i can use non gui cuz i have keyboard without key up down left right
10:37<Sqrt{not}>another question, are you reading the buster install manual as you try these different things?
10:38<pdfg37gdeqwf4>i cant manage my hdd by manual
10:38<pdfg37gdeqwf4>no keys on keyboard for this
10:38<amacater>Suggestion - DON'T rely on calamares: do rely on the original Debian install medium and not necessarily any of the Debian lives
10:42<NthDegree>pdfg37gdeqwf4: is this the only computer you have?
10:42<pdfg37gdeqwf4><NthDegree> yeah
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10:42<pdfg37gdeqwf4>i dont have another keyboard
10:43<NthDegree>and you don't possess a smartphone or a tablet either?
10:43<pdfg37gdeqwf4>sry my smartphone is broken display crash
10:43<pdfg37gdeqwf4>its too expensive
10:44<pdfg37gdeqwf4>and this covid
10:44<NthDegree>what OS is currently running on said computer?
10:44<pdfg37gdeqwf4>now i have debian xfce install from live, manjaro xfce install from live
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10:45<NthDegree>and you want to install Debian without a graphical interface?
10:45<pdfg37gdeqwf4>but with gui installer
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10:47<NthDegree>I can't help with the GUI installer but you do have some options
10:47<NthDegree>you could use apt purge to trim off the existing packages from your existing install
10:48<NthDegree>or you could partition ahead of time and use "expert mode" to skip the partitioning screens
10:48<NthDegree>or the other option is debootstrap and manually add GRUB bootloader and such if you're confident with Linux
10:49<pdfg37gdeqwf4>use apt purge on working system is too complicated, i can crash all system
10:49<pdfg37gdeqwf4>use debbootstrap is too complicated fro me too
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10:50<NthDegree>you could potentially remap keys within your Manjaro install and do the debian-installer process from within a chroot
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10:51<pdfg37gdeqwf4>no its too complicated
10:51<NthDegree>alternatively within Manjaro you could run a nested X server and then have debian-installer graphical connect to that
10:51<NthDegree>that way you have the graphical installer running
10:52<pdfg37gdeqwf4>i dont know why gui installer dont work if non-gui work
10:52<pdfg37gdeqwf4>why maintainer didnt fix it
10:53<pdfg37gdeqwf4>or they didn know about it
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10:54<amacater>GUI depends on more stuff - non-gui is more straightforward to code. Installing from Debian-live images using Calamares is not great.
10:54<NthDegree>or maybe support wasn't there when it got released
10:54<NthDegree>because AMD went through a phase of having poor support a couple of years back
10:55<pdfg37gdeqwf4>rx560 is 2017 years card
10:55<amacater>I'd almost suggest using Bullseye-RC2 non-official media right now
10:55<amacater>And Buster was started before it existed ...
10:55<NthDegree>I recommend trying Bullseye personally
10:56<pdfg37gdeqwf4>yeah i have debian 11 but installed from live
10:57<amacater>So - you have Debian and Manjaro installed on the machine and you want another Debian??
10:58<pdfg37gdeqwf4>without gui
10:58<amacater>But you don't have even a small USB stick ... :(
10:58<pdfg37gdeqwf4>cuz i always install from hdd
10:58<pdfg37gdeqwf4>from iso
10:59<pdfg37gdeqwf4>this is better then use usb stick
10:59<NthDegree>I've used the weekly from here to install recently:
10:59<amacater>Meh - DD an iso onto a small USB stick, boot from it and it works ...
10:59<amacater>A 1G stick will easily hold the netinst
11:00<pdfg37gdeqwf4>netinst is too long install
11:00<pdfg37gdeqwf4>install from iso with packages is faster
11:01<NthDegree>How about this then?
11:01<pdfg37gdeqwf4>and i dont have keys on keyb for manual partitioning
11:01<amacater>so you don't have any arrow key / tab ...
11:01<amacater>Take the guided partitioning
11:01<NthDegree>that's a standard testing ISO with non-free firmware included and built recently
11:02<Sqrt{not}>pdfg37gdeqwf4, or fix up the partitions from one of your already installed linux systems
11:02<pdfg37gdeqwf4>tab is not enough
11:02<amacater>Essentially, shrink one of the distributions you have - make some blank space, use expert mode and guided partitioning ...
11:02<amacater>I think it can even be done without an arrow key
11:03<NthDegree>amacater: I have a spare VPS I need to rebuild, I might test that :p
11:03<NthDegree>a preseed file could do the install too
11:03<pdfg37gdeqwf4>for select patition u need keys arrow or # character, but on keyboard no key "#", u need press 2 keys shift and 2 for this "#" but it didnt work, u cant select partitons
11:03<amacater>A netinst and nothing other than standard installed would be a minimal download. 250 packages or so max
11:03<amacater>What keyboard are you using
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11:04<Sqrt{not}>and how exactly did you type that "#" just now in IRC?
11:04<NthDegree> <-- that is another option
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11:05<pdfg37gdeqwf4>i made smaller my keyb, so i cut numkeys and arrow keys
11:05<Sqrt{not}>on a standard keyboard, # will be shift+3 not shift+2
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11:05<pdfg37gdeqwf4><Sqrt{not}> eah shift and 3 i missspeel
11:06<Sqrt{not}>can you make your keyboard larger again ?
11:06<NthDegree>pdfg37gdeqwf4: have you tried running the GUI installer from within your existing Debian using a nested X server?
11:07<pdfg37gdeqwf4>i even didnt know what does mean nested x server
11:07<NthDegree>that gives you a separate window which can display a graphical app within your graphical session
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11:08<pdfg37gdeqwf4>huh its too complicated for me
11:08<Sqrt{not}>me too
11:09<amacater>non-gui installer usually uses checkboxes - these toggle with a spacebar
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11:12<pdfg37gdeqwf4><amacater> i have 7 partitions, 3 partiotions for OS and other 4 with data, so u cant chose needed partition with manual set partitining
11:13<amacater>So - empty one of the partitions for OS - as empty space using parted / fdisk.
11:13<amacater>Then tell the partitioner to autopartition the empty space?
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11:19<pdfg37gdeqwf4>sry i dont want lose my date when autopartitiong delete all
11:19<NthDegree>I have another way
11:19<NthDegree>dumpkeys and loadkeys
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11:19<NthDegree>just remap your keys
11:20<pdfg37gdeqwf4>how i can remap keys in nongui
11:20<NthDegree>using those two commands
11:21<NthDegree>make the keymap within your existing debian system and copy it somewhere you can mount from a shell
11:22<NthDegree>then you can mount said location to bring in the custom keymap with arrows mapped to say W A S D and umount it after the custom keymap is loaded in
11:22<NthDegree>now you have arrows for the text UI
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11:28<NthDegree>I just tested this and it works :D
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11:28<NthDegree>for example
11:28<NthDegree>keycode 17 = +w just gets changed to keycode 17 = Up
11:28<NthDegree>and boom, your w key is now an up arrow
11:29<NthDegree>pdfg37gdeqwf4: easy enough and should work for what you're after, as keymaps have to be loaded in by debian installer anyway as part of the setup, so you can just load in your custom one after
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11:34<pdfg37gdeqwf4><NthDegree> pls show code
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11:34<NthDegree>pdfg37gdeqwf4: on your Debian Live system run something like: dumpkeys > result.txt
11:35<NthDegree>then if you copy/paste that to something like I can adjust it for you
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11:36<NthDegree>you might need to run dumpkeys as root (I do)
11:36<pdfg37gdeqwf4>sry but now i am in manjaro
11:36<NthDegree>that's fine, you can do it from there too
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11:42<NthDegree>Woohoo for sequential numbers :D
11:43<NthDegree>the differences are in keycode 17, 30, 31, 32
11:43<NthDegree>meaning no w a s d keys while it's loaded
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11:44<NthDegree>once loadkeys has been used to load that file in, your command prompt from within a regular shell (and thus debian installer) will act accordingly
11:44<NthDegree>your graphical session won't be affected in theory though
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11:46<pdfg37gdeqwf4>which command i need to enter in non gui for use this keys
11:46<pdfg37gdeqwf4>ctrl+f2 i went in cli, and then next?
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11:47<NthDegree>as root you'd do: loadkeys /path/to/file
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11:47<NthDegree>with /path/to/file being the path to where you saved that file
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11:55<NthDegree>amacater: WE DID IT! ^^ :-D
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12:22<amacater>NthDegree - WOOHOO
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12:23<amacater>Talk about yak shaving :)
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12:34<ISJ_23462>If I installed Bullseye now, would I run into isues when tis released or would it update to the stable train smoothly?
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12:35<vv221>Depends if you use the "testing" keyword in sources.list (it’s bad, never do that), or the "bullseye" one.
12:35<ISJ_23462>noted, dont use testing
12:36<vv221>With "bullseye", that is probably the default from Debian installer, it would stay on the Bullseye track even after its stable release.
12:36<ISJ_23462>Im not new to Linux but im finally dropping Windows all together and I dont want to reinstall again and again lol
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12:37<ISJ_23462>Any advice?
12:37<vv221>If you’re planning to go with Bullseye, you might find help more easily on #debian-next ;)
12:37<vv221>It gets a bit blurry this close to release, but this channel is still dedicated to Buster.
12:38<ISJ_23462>oh okay thank you
12:38<craigevil>ISJ_23462, go ahead and install Bullseye, once it is officially released you should have no problems keeping it updated
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12:40<ISJ_23462>Thanks again.
12:42<amacater>This - I was just explaining to someone else why we use release names :)
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12:42<amacater>If you started with Bullseye when first named, you could follow through for five years ++
12:43<amacater>except that the sources.list has it in lower case: bullseye
12:43<vv221>Right, using "stable" in sources.list one might feel smart for a while… Then a new release happens and you realize that you did not want an unattended release upgrade ;)
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12:44<amacater>You've got it :) Which is why the advice changed subtly a few years ago when people got caught out :)
12:45<amacater>It only happens once every three years or so - but the fix is easy - use the codename
12:45<amacater>Likewise those people who want to roll on permanent "testing" - same applies
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12:46<NthDegree>vv221: I think I'm about to test that with this VPS ;-)
12:47<NthDegree>I wanna know if automatic updates will "just work" with it (it only runs a ZNC, so worries if it goes a bit mad)
12:47<NthDegree>so no worries*
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12:51<vv221>NthDegree, I would expect it to "partially work" ;)
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12:51<vv221>Some parts might get stuck due to obsolete packages that would not be automatically removed.
12:52<vv221>But I’m curious about how it will end up for your server, please tell me if it ends up "fully borked" or only "slightly flawed" ;P
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12:53<NthDegree>Well I have KVM access and I've never tried: apt-get -f dist-upgrade
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12:55<NthDegree>I'm fairly confident I can fix most b0rkage when the time comes
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14:14<scorpion2185[m]>can you open a GUI in a terminal?
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14:18<sussudio>scorpion2185[m]: do you mean startx or something like midnight commander
14:18<petn-randall>scorpion2185[m]: Try it and see.
14:19<scorpion2185[m]>yes startx , I tried to open the DM on another tty but you can't
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14:20<plaur>does firefox manage to inhinit system sleep if you are using MATE or KDE? firefox sends dbus messages to org.freedesktop.ScreenSaver and org.gnome.SessionManager to disable screensaver and power management sleep...
14:21<plaur>but MATE implements org.mate.SessionManager, not org.gnome.SessionManager, I guess KDE doesn't implement org.gnome.SessionManager either?
14:21<petn-randall>plaur: I'd guess yes, but only when it's playing media.
14:21<plaur>yes, exactly, while playing media - in Xfce it doesn't work
14:22<scorpion2185[m]>from the terminal with startx I got a black screen and then: xinit: connection to X server lost waiting for X server to shut down (II) Server terminated successfully (0). Closing log file.
14:22<scorpion2185[m]>is there a way? do you need 2 monitors?
14:22<sney>scorpion2185[m]: if X is already running on this system, you won't be able to start it a second time
14:22<scorpion2185[m]>not even with 2 monitors?
14:23<dpkg>Describe your goal, not what you think the solution is.
14:23<sney>your existing 1 X session can support as many monitors as you have video outputs
14:23<scorpion2185[m]>Running 2 GUI session with 2 different users for example or different DE and/or DM
14:24<sney>that's multi-seat, which isn't well supported anymore
14:24<petn-randall>scorpion2185[m]: Why not use the existing mechanism that is built-in all login managers in Debian?
14:25<scorpion2185[m]>what mechanism? are login managers the display maangers?
14:25<petn-randall>scorpion2185[m]: You can log in as user A in e.g. gdm3, then log in as user B, too.
14:25<petn-randall>scorpion2185[m]: Unless you mean something else, in that case you need to describe your use case in detail.
14:26<scorpion2185[m]>how? what I am trying should be
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14:30<scorpion2185[m]>"This page is mostly of historical interest. It has been replaced by a man page: sd-login(3)." should I check that instead?
14:30<petn-randall>scorpion2185[m]: What you described was multi-session though, which the login managers support by default.
14:30<petn-randall>scorpion2185[m]: What is your use case for multi-session?
14:31<Sqrt{not}>scorpion2185[m], how many of these users will be root?
14:32<scorpion2185[m]>not sure what is the difference, so I make an example. I open on tty 1 user 1 with cinnamon and tty 2 user 1 with gnome. is this multi-session?
14:32<Sqrt{not}>so one root X session, and one non-root?
14:33<scorpion2185[m]>With 2 users , if I use only one then 2
14:34<scorpion2185[m]>there are many cases, first that " one root X session, and one non-root"
14:34<petn-randall>scorpion2185[m]: That is multi-session. If you want multi-seat, that would be one keyboard/mouse/screen for each user, which can use their session simultaneously.
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14:36<scorpion2185[m]>right I am looking for multi-session. can I open 2 x sessions so?
14:37<scorpion2185[m]>sney stated: "if X is already running on this system, you won't be able to start it a second time"
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14:44<scorpion2185[m]>It seems that you can't "A session is defined by the time a user is logged in until they log out. A session is bound to one or no seats (the latter for 'virtual' ssh logins). Multiple sessions can be attached to the same seat, but only one of them can be active, the others are in the background."
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14:51<scorpion2185[m]>can you use the same devices for 2 seats?
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15:17<Scorpion>is there a way to have a multi-sessions so?
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15:26<bremner>what do you mean?
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15:27<bremner>oh, Scorpion is the same person as scorpion2185[m]?
15:27<Scorpion>yes revolt doesn't work now
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15:32<Scorpion>Here on hexchat I can't see the previously messages
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16:00<petn-randall>scorpion2185[m]: As I said two hours ago, multi-session works out of the box with your login manager.
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16:08<r4fkramer>Hi all, please, I was running debian bullseye testing. Full freeze was today. So, am I running stable release now after upgrade was done some minutes ago ?
16:09<petn-randall>r4fkramer: No, full freeze does not mean it's released.
16:10<vv221>You will know when Bullseye has actually been released, by looking at this channel topic ;)
16:10<r4fkramer>Thanks for answering petn-randall. So, stable version is not ready for me here.....
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16:11<petn-randall>That being said, only handpicked bugfixes get into bullseye from now on. So if bullseye works for you now, it will also work for you when it gets released.
16:12<r4fkramer>Fine vv221, thank you for hint. Total lack of attention on my part, sorry.
16:12<bremner>or you could subscribe to, to get release announcements.
16:13<r4fkramer>Fine, petn-randall, thank you very much for clarifying the question :)
16:14<NthDegree>I'm hoping I don't end up hearing bad news wrt Bookworm i386 support >_>
16:14<vv221>NthDegree, I would be *very* surprised if it were to happen.
16:15<r4fkramer>Please, bremner, in this case, do I just have to send an email for them asking for subscription ?
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16:16<NthDegree>vv221: I'd be surprised if it gets dumped if mipsel is kept as a thing
16:17<bremner>r4fkramer: visit
16:19<vv221>NthDegree, we have seen a lot of distro discontinuing i386 support lately, but we have to keep in mind most of these had only support for amd64 and i386. So they were cutting by half the number of architecture to support (effectively keeping a single one).
16:19<r4fkramer>Thank you very much, bremner. Nice to see you after a long time without contacting me :)
16:19<vv221>Debian on the other hand has support for a lot of architecture, dropping a single one would not have the same effect.
16:20<r4fkramer>bremner, without answering me in the support channel. Thank you !
16:21<petn-randall>What's more likely is that the minimum CPU instruction set for i386 arch gets raised from time to time. It's happened in the past, too. "i386" arch doesn't technically run on 80386 processors anymore.
16:21<NthDegree>I'm guessing it's effectively i686 these days
16:22<petn-randall>But that wouldn't be any fun anyway. If simple https connections keep the CPU at 100% because encryption isn't hw accelerated, you'll be having a hard time, anyway.
16:23<vv221>The Web, an even stronger drive to hardware upgrades than video games ever were ;P
16:24<NthDegree>or... PulseAudio...
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16:25<vv221>Well, at least you can run old machines without PulseAudio with no real issue. Avoiding the Web on the other hand is getting really hard.
16:26<NthDegree>yeah, my use case for Debian i386 is RAM-efficiency in a cheap VM
16:27<quadrat>NthDegree what are you paying that you so deerly hold onto i386?
16:27<NthDegree>quadrat: well it's £1.20 but then I profit from the cashback on the Direct Debit so... >_>
16:28<NthDegree>(per month that is)
16:29<quadrat>oO what are the specs?
16:29<sney>there's always x32 too
16:29<NthDegree>512MB RAM, 1 vCPU, 10GB SSD
16:29<quadrat>idk if that is going to stick around as the kernel has already deprecated x32
16:29<quadrat>ahh wouldn't bother and move to amd64 imho
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16:30<NthDegree>to be fair, the RAM difference is almost equal to that of ditching systemd in practice >_>
16:31<quadrat>so alpine linux xD?
16:32<NthDegree>I'll just take the hit, the difference for my use is 77MB RAM used vs. 128MB in practice
16:32<petn-randall>NthDegree: If systemd is so bad for RAM, why are all the embedded systems using it?
16:32<quadrat>i assume we are also talking about a abysmal cpu arch?
16:33<NthDegree>petn-randall: it's not bad for RAM, the benefits outweigh the downsides in most cases
16:33<NthDegree>plus I like having all system daemons sandboxed by it
16:34<NthDegree>I'm not sure I could ever go back to a non-systemd system unless it's something I rigged up with init replaced by a stub executing a custom bash script or something
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16:37<NthDegree>Also, now that Debian has a very promising SELinux implementation (at least as of Bullseye) I can migrate all the VMs at work from CentOS to Debian, shove them on automatic updates and keep a close eye on announcements
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16:42<NthDegree>The only thing I might have to hack together is fapolicyd
16:43<X3r0>Hi, is it true that Bullseye enteres final freez today; and if so typically how long before an official release ?
16:43<dpkg>Now Debian "Bullseye" is the current testing branch as of 2019-07-06 and it will be released "when it's ready." Release day we're working to currently - as discussed in various mailing lists is July 31st 2021. There's a hard freeze from July 17th with only the most urgent security fixes after that date. Stuff may slip but July 31 is hoped for.
16:44<X3r0>petn-randall: thanks :)
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16:45<X3r0>dpkg: any ideas if there are any intentions or projects to release a debian spin with the latest kernel so that it supports the 2020 M1 or will we be looking at waiting more years before debian will run on an M1 ?
16:45<dpkg>X3r0: okay
16:46<quadrat>X3r0 i mean you can always use the backports kernel, but not sure how well userspace would work
16:46<NthDegree>X3r0: dpkg is a bot =D
16:47<sney>there will be backport kernels throughout bullseye's lifespan, with the version matching whatever bookworm is using at the time
16:47<X3r0>oops, NthDegree yeah just caught that mistake of misaddressing
16:47<sney>it remains to be seen if there will be *installers* with the bpo kernel, but it should still be possible to install if you don't mind getting a little messy
16:47<X3r0>sney: but what good are the backports if we can't even boot the thing?
16:47<quadrat>X3r0 especially as the gpu is very unique, i am pretty sure mesa will be too old for the m1
16:47<petn-randall>dpkg: forget any ideas if there
16:47<dpkg>petn-randall: i didn't have anything called 'any ideas if there' to forget
16:48<sney>petn-randall: maybe it's up to the 'be'?
16:48<jmcnaught>oh sorry I deleted it in /msg to avoid noise but ending up causing it I guess
16:49<petn-randall>sney: dpkg told me that it already knows about "any ideas if there", but I can't delete it. Guess I'll have to bother the bot owner.
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16:50<sney>dpkg: any ideas if there
16:50<dpkg>sney: I'm not sure, is it larger than a breadbox?
16:50<sney>petn-randall: ^ sometimes you just gotta do it in a query
16:50<petn-randall>jmcnaught: Ok, how did you delete it?
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16:50<petn-randall>jmcnaught: Ah, you deleted it again it seems.
16:51<sney>that was me
16:51<NthDegree>X3r0: you could possibly bootstrap your way to victory, once the M1 gets proper support from a newer distro as the easiest way
16:51<jmcnaught>petn-randall: I only deleted it the first time :)
16:51<NthDegree>X3r0: or hypothetically use a Sid daily in the future (when proper support exists) to then bootstrap an install of whichever Stable is around at the time with a backported kernel
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16:52<X3r0>NthDegree: what about a respin with: ?
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16:52<X3r0>NthDegree: great idea! But I think even Sid doesn't have supported kernel yet
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16:53<NthDegree>Yeah it probably won't yet but in the future it will
16:53<NthDegree>The next Linux LTS will probably be a kernel with support with any luck
16:53<sney>right, atm sid is slushy, but it'll have more kernel uploads once bullseye is out
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16:54<X3r0>just wondering how long in the future, cause the M1 will have been out over a year soon and new M2 or M1X are bound to pop up.
16:54<NthDegree>In my own experience with an M1 Mac Mini I'd say not even macOS supports the M1 properly yet :p
16:54<X3r0>NthDegree: lol, I concur
16:55<X3r0>NthDegree: typing from MacBook Air M1 and Mac mini M1 is over in cornner
16:55<NthDegree>I returned my one and allegedly all the bugs have been fixed since...
16:55<X3r0>they did iron out some
16:56<X3r0>still looking forward to a proper linux install though
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16:57<X3r0>NthDegree: honestly if it weren't for the power conservation of the M1 I was honestly considering swaping it for a Lenovo ThinkPad
16:58<petn-randall>X3r0: You'll have similar power draw with any ARM laptop you buy.
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16:59<X3r0>petn-randall: true, but I haven't found any other ARM laptops comparable
16:59<X3r0>petn-randall: I mean all I really know of is the PineBook and Pro
17:01<X3r0>also I got this before the price inflations and it'll be hard to beat 16 GB and 1TB SSD
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17:10<X3r0>I wonder if I could make a bootable ISO from homebrew
17:11<X3r0>probably not, because of the kernel thing except if maybe I chroot
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17:25<hendursaga>Both and suggest the current Chromium build I have installed from Buster is out-of-date - is there a nice way to keep it up-to-date?
17:26<hendursaga>I would've thought there'd be a security release to update to
17:28<Habbie>chromium (90.0.4430.212-1~deb10u1) buster-security; urgency=medium
17:28<Habbie> * New upstream security release.
17:28<Habbie> -- Michael Gilbert <> Sat, 15 May 2021 20:39:40 +0000
17:28<sussudio>,v chromium
17:28<judd>Package: chromium on amd64 -- jessie: 57.0.2987.98-1~deb8u1; jessie-security: 57.0.2987.98-1~deb8u1; stretch: 73.0.3683.75-1~deb9u1; stretch-proposed-updates: 73.0.3683.75-1~deb9u1; stretch-security: 73.0.3683.75-1~deb9u1; buster: 89.0.4389.114-1~deb10u1; buster-security: 90.0.4430.212-1~deb10u1; bullseye: 90.0.4430.212-1; sid: 90.0.4430.212-1
17:28<hendursaga>Yes, that's my present version, but that's out-of-date
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17:29<sussudio>do you have security in your sources, hendursaga
17:30<hendursaga>sussudio: yes, I very much do
17:30<vv221>I think there is a misunderstanding there ;) hendursaga is telling that the current buster-security 90.0.4430 is older than the current 91.something
17:30<hendursaga>Chromium 91 is the latest stable version..
17:30<X3r0>sussudio: thanks, now I have to play that song
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17:30<hendursaga>vv221: yes, sorry, should've been clearer
17:30<sney>there is a 90 security update from chromium upstream from last week, but that one isn't in debian either; chromium is huge and complicated to package and there is only 1 maintainer atm
17:32<hendursaga>sney: one maintainer? wow, ouch
17:32<sney>there is also only 1 firefox maintainer. it's not a great situation.
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17:33<hendursaga>well I don't use Debian repo for my Firefox build, I just can't find a Chromium binary that self-updates for Linux that's not unstable
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17:33<X3r0>sney: is that one maintainer for chrome also the one for chromium ?
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17:34<sney>a lot of the CVEs affecting chromium only apply in narrow circumstances, see for the list, you yourself may or may not be "insecure" depending on what you're doing.
17:35<sney>X3r0: do you mean the same maintainer for chromium and firefox? no.
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17:35<X3r0>sney: no, the same maintainer for chromium and chrome
17:36<vv221>X3r0, there is no Google Chrome in Debian repos, only chromium.
17:36<sney>google chrome does not have a package in debian
17:36<X3r0>vv221: good point
17:36<X3r0>isn't chromium supposed to be newer than chrome?
17:37<sney>they share the same codebase
17:37<X3r0>or is chrome more currated ?
17:37<X3r0>i.e. more secure?
17:37<sney>chrome is google's google-branded and service-integrated version of the chromium browser
17:37<X3r0>Like could hendursaga just get the actual chrome package directly from Google?
17:38<bentham>X3r0: I would not trust it if I were you.
17:38<sney>and yeah, that's always an option, but it has other implications re how much google can spy on the user
17:38<X3r0>sney: you mean like those forms you fill out at the doctors office or for the IRS or what not?
17:39<X3r0>or Census data?
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17:39<X3r0>or DMV records?
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17:40<sney>right, anything personal or sensitive that you type into a form in google chrome could potentially be seen by some black box google system
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17:41<bentham>It is a very scary computer program.
17:41<sney>they were busted doing surveillance back in 2013 and there's no reason to believe they aren't still doing something along those lines. at least, one should consider it.
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17:42<bentham>But most importantly, the Google software exposes your data, whether or not Google algorithms are actually analysing it, this is bad.
17:42<X3r0>will Intel’s Potential Merger With Global Foundries result in continued x86, or ARM, or some newfangled arch ?
17:43<X3r0>bentham: guess how many medicaid applications my eyes were exposed to while working at Xerox
17:43<bentham>If I were you, I'd stick to Firefox. Or better yet, Tor Browser. Enjoy
17:44<X3r0>bentham: Firefox over Chromium ?
17:44<alex11>chromium is better but honestly i wouldn't even support even the fringes of the google ecosystem
17:45<alex11>(chromium in debian hitherto now has also been a bit of a mess technically/maintenance wise)
17:45<hendursaga>I have to use something Chromium-based for this one important application - FF does not work
17:45<alex11>i know there's something called ungoogled chromium, YMMV
17:45<bentham>The Firefox architecture has much better security. The Tor Project has analysed this; let me see if I can find the report.
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17:45<hendursaga>alex11: which is, like, maintained by one or two people IIRC?
17:46<X3r0>alex11: you relized Microsoft and Facebook spy also and while Apple claims privacy, they actually host a lot of data on Google servers
17:46<alex11>i mean
17:46<alex11>i didn't claim anything about any of them
17:46<alex11>that's not much of a counterargument to 'google is bad'
17:46<hendursaga>OK, let me rephrase my original question: should I worry about using this slightly out-of-date Chromium build security-wise?
17:47<bentham>You should worry about the security of even new versions of Chromium.
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17:47<X3r0>hendursaga: what's the relese notes of the new Chromium say: does it mention any security addresses?
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17:47<hendursaga>X3r0: I'm trying to find that rn
17:47<sney>hendursaga: at least, you should look at the list of open CVEs and make an informed decision.
17:48<hendursaga>One nice thing I like about FF/TBB is they're pretty clear on which security bugs the new releases fix
17:48<sney>but like bentham implies, browsers are big and complicated and will always have some kind of vulnerability *somewhere*, regardless of anyone's list of vulnerabilities, it's still up to you to have good security practices
17:49<X3r0>I don't see anything imediatley alarming:
17:50<bentham>also this but it is old (as far as I know it is still relevant, however)
17:50<bentham>I am unconvinced that Google has addressed any of the privacy issues listed in this report.
17:51<bentham>I encourage you to read the whole main section of the page.
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17:51<X3r0>bentham: well it may be worth noting that I noticed that google recently allowed me to delete all my personal data from various services and activity history
17:52<NthDegree>hendursaga: don't use it for other reasons. 90.x is has broken VAAPI and GPU acceleration support
17:52<NthDegree>it has*
17:52<NthDegree>playing videos on it is a bit laggy/stuttery and it also has much higher CPU usage than normal
17:52<X3r0>NthDegree: you running on Firefox then?
17:53<NthDegree>I installed Brave for now
17:53<X3r0>so does Edge use Chromium base or did they fork it ?
17:53<NthDegree>Edge uses Chromium as a base and has a few additional tweaks patched in
17:53<sney>my system has a nvidia gpu, I don't get video acceleration in any browsers. I don't get any noticeable video lag though, I guess my cpu is good enough to carry the weight
17:53<NthDegree>they contribute upstream
17:54<NthDegree>sney: really? vdpau should offer you that
17:54<X3r0>NthDegree: so is there some universal upstream database of src packages; like where does sid get it's src packages from?
17:55<sney>NthDegree: not with nvidia-driver according to, "It's not supported in any major browser except for GNOME Web but is useful for local playback. MPV is recommended for this. "
17:57<NthDegree>sney: I popped out my GTX 970 but last I checked there's a vaapi<->vdpau driver
17:57<sney>NthDegree: interesting, well like I said it's not an issue
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18:02<NthDegree>X3r0: there's the file where one can see where it's grabbed from right at the bottom
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18:05<X3r0>NthDegree: thanks; forgive me, I was out of context, but I meant for all packages, not just Chromium.
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18:06<NthDegree>X3r0: ah you might be after say
18:06<NthDegree>.orig.tar.xz is the source code without any Debian bits
18:06<X3r0>NthDegree: is that where sid sources from?
18:06<NthDegree>then .debian.tar.xz is unpacked and that contains the debian/ folder which goes inside the source tree
18:08<NthDegree>X3r0: yes, as well as the other releases, though if you want easy access to specific packages files from Sid, look at (for example)
18:08<X3r0>basically I'm trying to figure out how some distros have the latest versions of packages and other rolling releases lag a little; like is there some universal source tree?
18:08<X3r0>like how is arch more up to date than sid
18:09<NthDegree>Arch makes updating packages easier is the answer
18:09<NthDegree>Arch packagers can often just change the version number in a PKGBUILD and rebuild
18:09<X3r0>and whats even weirder is that Manjaro is more up to date than Arch and I thought it used Arch's base
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18:10<NthDegree>Manjaro uses Arch's base but does some weird things because it has its own repo
18:10<NthDegree>and in some cases Sid is ahead of Arch
18:10<X3r0>right, so how?
18:10<NthDegree> <-- example
18:11<X3r0>like where are the base src packages where everyone draws from?
18:11<NthDegree>those are on the servers of the upstream project
18:11<NthDegree>for some that's GitHub, for others they're tarballs on a random FTP server
18:11<X3r0>so upstream project has a universal database?
18:11<NthDegree>no, it's all scattered and decentralised
18:12<X3r0>hrmm, so how do they keep versioning consistent
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18:12<NthDegree>because upstream sets the version number
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18:12<X3r0>no matter where it's sourced from when uploaded?
18:13<NthDegree>well let's take Audacity as an example
18:13<NthDegree>they're the upstream project, and they release tarballs on FOSSHub
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18:13<NthDegree>when a package maintainer sees the release, they will then download it and try to make a working package on their own machine from it
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18:14<NthDegree>once they have something that works and which complies with the distribution's policy they can submit it
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18:14<X3r0>NthDegree: so the sid maintainer has to scour many places on the web to build sid packages ?
18:15<NthDegree>X3r0: Debian maintainers only maintain a few packages each
18:15<X3r0>so package maintainers distribute to various distros
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18:15<NthDegree>not usually
18:15<NthDegree>Debian will have an Audacity packager, Fedora will have one etc.
18:15<X3r0>I mean audacity is on Debian and on Arch, etc.
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18:16<NthDegree>packagers in many cases aren't the developers of the software itself
18:16<NthDegree>in the case of Arch, they have a different strategy to most distributions
18:17<NthDegree>they allow people to flag a package as out of date (behind the latest version), which is a virtual kick up the arse for someone to update it
18:17<X3r0>so no universal packagers, so how is there consistancy between distros with version numbers, I mean how does one distros packager say okay this version of Audacity is latest, vs RedHat's packager saying the same?
18:18<NthDegree>not all distros always target the latest versions of an app
18:18<X3r0>right, but how do you actually know it's the latest version of an app?
18:18<X3r0>by developer or packager?
18:18<NthDegree>the developer of audacity publishes a release
18:18<X3r0>for packagers to grab?
18:19<X3r0>and then distros to maintain?
18:19<NthDegree>yes packagers can then grab it
18:19<NthDegree>and then a package maintainer can either update it to the latest version that the developer hands out or backport fixes
18:19<X3r0>so where does upstream project fit into this?
18:20<NthDegree>Audacity is the upstream project and Audacity's developers are upstream
18:20<X3r0>so upstream is all over the web?
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18:21<NthDegree>yeah Linux distributions grab releases from many projects. package them as a consistent, coherent system and release a Linux distribution from all of it
18:22<NthDegree>doistributions like Debian and RHEL will make a release and then backport fixes (that's what the word "Stable" translates to) so as not to change the behaviour of the system too much over time
18:22<X3r0>so with LFS you'd have to maintain your own packages and grab them as developers release them? Is security upstream specific or distro specific ?
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18:23<NthDegree>yeah with LFS you would be compiling the code as the developers release it
18:23<NthDegree>Security is handled upstream mostly
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18:24<X3r0>NthDegree: so patches generally aren't Debian or distro specific?
18:24<X3r0>a bit agnostic?
18:24<NthDegree>somewhat, it depends on the distro
18:24<NthDegree>RHEL for example has a Linux kernel which massively deviates from upstream and backports fixes and functionality
18:25<X3r0>I guess the liceses too cause if you'd patch or modify the src you'd have to upload to upstream under some licensing right
18:25<NthDegree>you just have to make the source available to those you give a binary to under the GPL
18:26<X3r0>but not necessarily to upstream directly
18:26<NthDegree>so Debian for example makes the patches and buildscripts available in a .debian.tar.xz file for each package
18:26<NthDegree>and if upstream wants to grab a patch from it, they can
18:26<NthDegree>but most of the time, patches are very similar to the commits an upstream project issues to fix a given security issue
18:26<X3r0>so with LFS is it possible to adopt dpkg and apt for package management?
18:27<NthDegree>yes, technically, but you wouldn't want to
18:27<X3r0>how come?
18:27<X3r0>cause of the infrastructure?
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18:27<NthDegree>dpkg and apt are heavyweight packages designed to make a coherent system for general use
18:27<dpkg>...but and apt is already something else...
18:28<sussudio>!and apt
18:28<dpkg>Advanced Packaging Tool (APT) is a package management system used by Debian and its derivatives. APT is a C++ library of functions that are used by several command line programs for dealing with packages, notably apt-get, apt-cache, and aptitude and, from Debian 8 "Jessie" onwards, apt. See also <aptitude> <apt-get>, <apt-cache>, <apt myths>.
18:28<X3r0>but that's what I would want with my LFS a "coherent system for general use"
18:28<NthDegree>sussudio: don't worry I didn't break it lol
18:29<NthDegree>X3r0: yes but for your own personal use you wouldn't need the features
18:29<X3r0>how come?
18:29<X3r0>I mean convenience
18:29<NthDegree>Like you wouldn't implement menus to ask you which display manager you'd prefer
18:29<NthDegree>you'd be compiling just the one you want
18:29<X3r0>but for update purposes and 3rd party install purposes
18:30<NthDegree>PKGBUILDs from Arch would be a better fit
18:30<NthDegree>they're easier to modify and have less red tape to change
18:31<X3r0>NthDegree: thanks, I'll keep that tip under consideration if I'm ever brave enough to embark on such a tidious task/undertaking
18:31<NthDegree>likewise for Gentoo ebuilds
18:31<NthDegree>those are also much more lightweight and suited to customisation
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18:31<NthDegree>(so much so, that's what Google used for ChromeOS)
18:31<X3r0>almost sounds like scripting auto fetch and compile would be better
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18:32<NthDegree>ALFS has an entire book on that :p
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18:32<X3r0>NthDegree: seem to recolect something about that
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18:33<bey0nd>a wild rms appears, it uses free software, it is super effective
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18:34<NthDegree>By the way, regarding third party installs
18:34<NthDegree>ldd is your friend when handling those on a custom distribution
18:34<X3r0>so I'm confused by would / could / should I use that as a LFS base or do I use that to build a LFS base ?
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18:35<NthDegree>LFS allows you to use almost any distro to bootstrap a base
18:35<X3r0>NthDegree: noted; thanks
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18:36<NthDegree>because ultimately you'll at some stage compile a toolchain and compiler along with a basic set of software and then use that to compile itself (bootstrapping)
18:37<X3r0>why hasn't anyone built a distro that auto srcs directly from all the developers ?
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18:37<NthDegree>because changes can and do break things a lot
18:37<X3r0>like why are there packagers
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18:38<NthDegree>that one is easy to answer when you see how other OSes handle it
18:38<X3r0>NthDegree: like audacity breaks chrome type thing?
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18:39<NthDegree>on Windows and macOS, application developers have to grab many of the libraries their applications need and bundle them with the application
18:39<NthDegree>on Linux, distributions handle all that so everything is coherently built and acts as a consistent whole
18:39<X3r0>which is dumb IMHO, the same owner / maintainer should have a dataset of their libraries and keep it consistant between releases
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18:40<NthDegree>when we're talking about GTK and Qt and other foundational libraries, things get interesting
18:40<X3r0>like app devleopers should maintain the library versioning
18:40<X3r0>the ones they src
18:41<NthDegree>if app developers maintain library versions, you waste RAM and make things harder to patch
18:41<X3r0>like, you use it be responsible for it
18:41<NthDegree>that's the situation on Windows and Android and macOS
18:41<NthDegree>OneDrive has a copy of Qt which loads into RAM, then VirtualBox, then TeamViewer etc.
18:41<X3r0>NthDegree: how do you waste RAM and make things harder to patch?
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18:42<NthDegree>because of how shared libraries are meant to be shared between apps
18:42<NthDegree>if each app has its own shared library version, multiple lots of code are now resident in RAM
18:42<X3r0>but if it's the same company responsible for THEIR software, the "shared library" should be consistant between apps no matter the version number
18:42<X3r0>they should be aware of it
18:42<NthDegree>no because how does the system keep track of the copies?
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18:43<X3r0>it's their library
18:43<NthDegree>no it isn't
18:43<X3r0>the system is updated in turn
18:43<NthDegree>Audacity doesn't maintain wxwidgets for example
18:43<X3r0>so then why does Audacity rely on it?
18:43<X3r0>it sounds like putting the key of happiness in the pocket of others.
18:43<NthDegree>because wxwidgets is reliably maintained by whoever does maintain it
18:43<NthDegree>open source is all about sharing code and sharing the burden
18:44<NthDegree>why does Microsoft OneDrive depend upon Qt? Microsoft doesn't maintain it
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18:44<X3r0>except when an app can't understand or effectivly interface with a "reliably maintainded" library
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18:45<X3r0>NthDegree: exactly Why DOES OneDrive depend upon Qt
18:45<NthDegree>because OneDrive would have to implement its own code for drawing on screen across macOS and Windows otherwise
18:45<NthDegree>it relieves a big burden on the developers
18:45<X3r0>putting the key of happiness in others pockets just doesn't sound ideal to me
18:46<NthDegree>it's how computing works tho
18:46<X3r0>or untill it doesn't and people have to patch / update
18:46<NthDegree>there isn't a single modern piece of software which doesn't rely on other people's code somewhere along the line
18:46<NthDegree>This is why packagers exist
18:46<NthDegree>central updates keeping everything neatly patched
18:46<X3r0>NthDegree: I bet some odd embeded inhouse built machine / software exists somewhere
18:47<alex11>i have to say, i honestly like the linux ecosystem more than bsd
18:47<NthDegree>there will be but it will take from someone else's stuff somewhere along the line
18:47<NthDegree>Intel CPUs use open source code written by someone else
18:48<X3r0>NthDegree: maybe a custom cpu
18:48<NthDegree>and that CPU talks to what? :p
18:48<X3r0>a soldered ancient 8GHz board somewhere with byte code
18:48<NthDegree>even ancient 8086 machines relied on other people's code
18:49<X3r0>but a pito buzer doesn't
18:49<X3r0>or an LED strobe
18:50<NthDegree>and at that point you can see why people depend on others code
18:50<X3r0>the daunting task of starting from scratch
18:50<X3r0>and being oupaced by efficiencies
18:51<NthDegree>there are distributions which do a lot of automation to build packages, OpenSUSE being a good example of that
18:51<NthDegree>they use OpenQA which runs tests on every built package to make sure they work for common use cases
18:51<X3r0>NthDegree: I wait for the day of AI package maintaining
18:51<NthDegree>and you can even see the screenshots as proof
18:52<NthDegree>however, as with all things, there's a catch
18:52<NthDegree>people have to write the test cases
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18:52<NthDegree>when menus and other bits change, test cases break
18:52<X3r0>as is always the case: insufficient data for meaningful answer
18:53<NthDegree>Debian Stable (and RHEL) both give people one key benefit: unchanging behaviour after release
18:53<NthDegree>and that's the other reason packagers exist, to make good judgement calls regarding integration
18:53<X3r0>but it's always old without all the fancy bells and whistles
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18:54<X3r0>and in some cases without the security updates
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18:54<NthDegree>only if the security issue is a major design flaw which needs a redesign
18:55<X3r0>NthDegree: you mean like:
18:55<NthDegree>the cost of having the latest stuff though is new security issues being introduced (happens a lot, people make mistakes) and you as a user constantly having to change stuff
18:56<NthDegree>and the constant need for changes introduces security issues too
18:56<X3r0>Manjaro is a bit of a nice balance IMHO
18:56<X3r0>rolling release with veted packages
18:56<NthDegree>it's fine for a desktop yeah
18:57<NthDegree>as long as it's desktops that the end user knows how to maintain
18:57<X3r0>yeah, not for mission critical, but for mission critical you might wanna build inhouse anyways
18:57<NthDegree>it's not even "mission critical" as much as it is users being users
18:58<X3r0>when will the AI be the user?
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18:58<NthDegree>people who aren't IT specialists don't like to learn new stuff, as was evidenced by Windows Vista, Windows 8 and Windows 10 changes
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18:59<X3r0>don't forget Windows ME
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18:59<NthDegree>Windows Me was fine from that perspective
18:59<X3r0>NthDegree: I hear Windows 11 is an even bigger change
19:00<NthDegree>I've seen it and it's teeny tiny compared to the other jumps
19:00<X3r0>NthDegree: and yet Windows ME was notoriously problomatic and users complained
19:01<X3r0>NthDegree: I don't know going from Windows 10 to a mac like interace seems kinda tramatic to me
19:01<NthDegree>Windows 11 looks just like the defaults on newer Windows 10 builds
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19:01<NthDegree>all they did was centre the bar by default
19:02<X3r0>and change icons and color scheme and window edges
19:02<X3r0>also I hear system requirmenets are different too
19:03<NthDegree>well, they're basically the requirements for Credential Guard, Device Guard and BitLocker
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19:04<X3r0>NthDegree: you'll have to forgive me, I live in the Apple world and haven't been familure with the Microsoft world for a good many number of years now, so I'm not familure with "Credential Guard, and Device Guard" I think BitLocker is some sorta ecryption thing
19:04<NthDegree>Credential Guard and Device Guard are features only enterprise sysadmins know the name of really
19:05<NthDegree>basically Windows always runs as a virtual machine on supported hardware, people just don't see that
19:05<X3r0>NthDegree: is that kinda the thing to take the place of product keys or something?
19:05<NthDegree>no, it's to help fix some real world issues
19:05<X3r0>NthDegree: oh Hypervisor took over now
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19:06<NthDegree>and I can tell you that unsigned code had a major performance penalty with their added security on Intel 6th Gen and below
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19:06<NthDegree>that is why you'll see Microsoft saying 7th Gen or newer is needed for Windows 11
19:06<X3r0>It's ironic how much more secure DOS is now, cause it doesn't connect to anything, you'd have to physically be at the terminal to exploit it.
19:07<X3r0>NthDegree: oh the whole spectre, meltdown mitigation
19:07<NthDegree>more than that
19:07<NthDegree>Well Virtualization Based Security
19:07<NthDegree>it protects against unauthorised malicious Thunderbolt devices
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19:08<NthDegree>it helps protect against credential theft by hiding the creds inside a secure VM with a second, hardened kernel (Secure Kernel)
19:08<X3r0>NthDegree: and now they're dealing with
19:09<X3r0>NthDegree: LOL:
19:09<NthDegree>yeah, that ruined a few evenings for me
19:09<X3r0>patching upstream ^
19:09<NthDegree>yeah, printing on Windows is broken AF
19:10<NthDegree>Linux has pushed for vendors to embrace IPP+ for a while now
19:10<X3r0>NthDegree: adpot CUPS maybe?
19:10<NthDegree>and where possible it does driverless printing as a result
19:10<X3r0>NthDegree: yeah I do driverless printing from linux to my canon
19:11<X3r0>and from IOS for that matter
19:11<NthDegree>Windows is the epitome of stable gone wrong
19:11<X3r0>except for gaming, right?
19:11<X3r0>or spying
19:12<NthDegree>for gaming they goofed too
19:12<NthDegree>try using Age of Empires 2 from CD
19:12<NthDegree>or SimCity 3000
19:12<X3r0>even within a VM?
19:12<X3r0>just cloud compute it
19:12<X3r0>that's what I do for gaming on my mac I just use stadia
19:13<NthDegree>they broke games with a security patch on Windows 7, 8.1 and 10
19:13<NthDegree>and they have no intention of bringing back the support either
19:13<X3r0>NthDegree: I swear I hear everyday they broke some this or that with a patch
19:14<X3r0>NthDegree: I don't know how they get away with it, if it happened in the Mac world, people would be up in arms
19:14<NthDegree>it was intentional breakege
19:14<X3r0>lawsuits would be flying
19:14<NthDegree>Apple do worse on macOS
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19:14<X3r0>NthDegree: how do you mean?
19:14<raven523>like with macOS's recent removal of 32-bit x86 application support
19:14<NthDegree>they break stuff between releases constantly
19:14<raven523>or deprecating opengl
19:15<NthDegree>and it includes business apps
19:15<X3r0>32 was bound to be deprecated sometime anyways, and they kept the support for years
19:15<X3r0>deprecating opengl for their own framework
19:15<NthDegree>PPTP VPNs got removed despite the fact they can be made secure with the right parameters
19:16*X3r0 doesn't trust VPNs
19:16<X3r0>it's like puting the fox guard of the chicken house
19:16<raven523>I wish they had gone with vvulkan instead of metal
19:16<NthDegree>VPNs are core functionality for business though :|
19:17<X3r0>NthDegree: and hence SolarWinds etc.
19:17<NthDegree>SolarWinds was a solution which allowed VPNless connectivity as part of monitoring
19:17<NthDegree>and that is a super bad idea as people have just realised
19:17<X3r0>well it's not like a VPN hasn't been exploited
19:18<NthDegree>yeah but a VPN is easier to monitor, defend and isolate
19:18<NthDegree>stick it on a
19:18<X3r0>VPN superimpose all the time
19:18<NthDegree>stick it on a VLAN
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19:18<X3r0>if you can really trust that VPN
19:18<NthDegree>and then force it to only allow the connectivity you absolutely need
19:19<NthDegree>and then make sure all application protocols travelling through it are secure
19:19<X3r0>never know who's tapping it or redirecting mirrored traffic
19:19<NthDegree>that's not an issue if your application protocols are secure
19:19-!-Haudegen [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:19<X3r0>NthDegree: depends on how trustworthy the "secure" is
19:20<X3r0>or even the protocols
19:20<X3r0>or the routs
19:20<X3r0>or the serversd
19:20<NthDegree>if you VPN in using device certs and then use that to access an RD Gateway using TLS 1.3, your attacker now has nothing of value
19:20<X3r0>this all goes back to putting the key to happiness in others pockets
19:20<NthDegree>but you've now protected against everyone who isn't the attacker
19:21<X3r0>but could be an attacker
19:21<X3r0>in desguise
19:21<NthDegree>that's fine because you don't trust any one given layer
19:21<X3r0>it's like that song: heathens
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19:22<NthDegree>Device Certs set up your tunnel into the network, additional IPSec via Kerberos protects your generic connections inside the network and then application protocols beyond that add an extra defence
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19:23<X3r0>NthDegree: it's not alaways the transport that's the weakest link
19:23<X3r0>sometimes it's the ends
19:23<NthDegree>that's fine, because that's what endpoint security and auditing is for
19:23<X3r0>NthDegree: so why all the ransomware ?
19:24<NthDegree>because most IT is overworked and understaffed
19:24<NthDegree>and suits demand the moon on a stick so people cut corners and lie
19:24<X3r0>sounds like many idnsutries honestly
19:24<X3r0>I can think of nursing
19:25<NthDegree>the ransomware which pwned the UK NHS could have been mostly blocked by Windows Firewall if workstations had all inbound connectivity blocked
19:25<NthDegree>but for convenience, sysadmins probably made port 445 widely available for C$ and ADMIN$ default shares
19:26<X3r0>NthDegree: also audits and such aren't relevent if the malware is internal, like Apple intentionally releasing spyware or crippledware or depricated ware etc.
19:26<NthDegree>so once ransomware got in, it could exploit LanManServer support for SMB 1.x and spread like wildfire
19:26<X3r0>or like when your tech support team is making mental notes of personal info to use off clock
19:26<NthDegree>well that can be defended against too somewhat
19:27<NthDegree>a good example is RHEL
19:27<X3r0>humans just aren't very trustworthy creatures
19:27<NthDegree>they use Fedora as a proving ground
19:27<X3r0>RHEL has exploited subscription models in the past
19:27<X3r0>Google has even double taxed customers
19:27<NthDegree>and they will only import their packages from a blessed Fedora release
19:28<NthDegree>therefore, packages have been on many PCs and malicious activity will hopefully be spotted
19:28<X3r0>NthDegree: and what happens when someone internally that hass access to the blessed key to bless packages blesses malware?
19:28<NthDegree>well, that's where segmentation and automation comes in
19:29<NthDegree>No human has direct access to the signing key for RHEL, it can't be copied
19:29<NthDegree>the people maintaining the signing system are different from the people maintaining the build system
19:29<X3r0>it's amazing what quatium computing and AI can do now days
19:30<NthDegree>and packages come from Fedora first where people have already ran them
19:30<jhutchins>I believe this has gone pretty far offtopic, may I suggest a move to #debian-offtopic?
19:30<X3r0>jhutchins: your right, my apologies, I digress
19:30<NthDegree>jhutchins: I was just about to draw a parallel to Unstable -> Testing -> Stable :p
19:31<NthDegree>X3r0: I'm in -offtopic if you wanna chat there
19:31<jhutchins>I don't see any tech support in the last two hours.
19:31<jhutchins>NthDegree: Not relevant here.
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19:32<jhutchins>I'm not saying anybody's arguments are not valid, but they don't belong here.
19:32<X3r0>#debian-offtopic Cannot join channel (Need to be identified and verified to join this channel, '/msg NickServ help' to learn how to register and verify.)
19:32<jhutchins>X3r0: Proceed.
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19:32<X3r0>jhutchins: I'm agreeing with you, and I apologized
19:32<NthDegree>X3r0: yeah, you'll need to use /msg NickServ REGISTER and reserve your nickname :-D
19:32<jhutchins>X3r0: Try ##debian-offtopic
19:33<jhutchins>I thought they had a channel here...
19:33<jhutchins>X3r0: Are you not registered?
19:33<NthDegree>jhutchins: yeah he's not registered, that's why, there is #debian-offtopic on here but it's reglocked
19:34<jhutchins>Ah, the channel does exist, 125 nicks.
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19:34<NthDegree>jhutchins: I thought you had invited me to like a private bar just then ;p
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19:39<jhutchins>Anybody know of problems with python2.7 opening network shares?
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19:39*sney resists the urge to !anyone
19:40<NthDegree>I had issues with it but I assumed it was just me (I'm terrible at coding) so I just did sshfs mounts instead
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20:11<jhutchins>NthDegree: I'm having trouble with CIFS. Stretch works, Buster doesn't.
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20:14<NthDegree>jhutchins: at a complete guess, it might be worth checking which version it's using as SMB 1.0 might be disabled by default on newer versions
20:17<lifesgood>I believe here is a good place to stress from a newbie like me that xfce must continue its explendid minimalistic philosophy of desktop.
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20:22<dvs>!start a dm war
20:22<dpkg>xdm is the one true way!
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20:24<NthDegree>Minimalistic? You want LXDE then ;-p
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20:27<lifesgood>NthDegree, from now I will shut up my keyborard to defend xfce, my quote was just to congrats the xfce team. period.
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20:35<lifesgood>there are rumors that even microsoft use linux, believe the Linux is the future in OS.
20:36<sney>WSL is far from a rumor at this point
20:37<lifesgood>but I follow trends where the kernel may be (for good in future) not monolithic, may be a microkernel.
20:38<lifesgood>just look HURD
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20:41<lifesgood>as a programmer I am I understand the big fear of migrating 'the whole thing'.
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20:42<lifesgood>sort of: 'hey, its working like a charm, dont touch it shall we?'
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20:51<lifesgood>a current problem that can be dodged by microkernel are the bugged video drivers that now freeze all the system. so we have to avoid the newer ones from v3endor and trust only in debian repos.
20:52<lifesgood>then, the top of the line GPUs may lack proper drivers.
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20:53<lifesgood>do you agree?
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21:02<lifesgood>just to I know, these themes are allowed here, aint?
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21:04<lifesgood>really dont want to break any rules
21:05<Sqrt{not}>lifesgood, maybe better on #debian-offtopic ... this channel is more for tech support
21:05<lifesgood>ho yes yes
21:07<lifesgood>#debian-offtopic :Cannot join channel (Need to be identified and verified to join this channel,
21:07<lifesgood>I believe I am already identofied
21:09<Sqrt{not}>you may be identified as b1ackandwh1te?
21:09<sussudio>you're not verified.
21:09<Sqrt{not}>here you are presenting as "lifeisgood"
21:10<Sqrt{not}>errr, lifesgood
21:11<lifesgood>Sqrt{not}, I think I need verify, but I dont know how, yet.
21:12<Sqrt{not}>type: /msg nickserv help register
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---Logclosed Sun Jul 18 00:00:15 2021