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#debian IRC Logs for 2021-07-28

---Logopened Wed Jul 28 00:00:30 2021
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00:00-!-tejr is "Tom Ryder" on #perl #debian-vim #debian-perl #debian
00:01<Sqrt{not}>Or, if you only want social conversation, we can suggest other channels.
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00:23-!-tejr is "Tom Ryder" on #perl #debian-vim #debian-perl #debian
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01:47<jongoingcrazy>Help! How do I remove an erroneously submitted and archived bug report from bugs.debian.org?
01:47<themill>the BTS is append-only.
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01:49<jongoingcrazy>I've erroneously entered some personal information in my bug report. So there is no way to correct a human error?
01:50<themill>you can email the bts admins to remove it from bugs.debian.org, but it will have been replicated to many other websites and mailing list archives already
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01:52<jongoingcrazy>I've never received any answer from owner@bugs.debian.org. Is there anybody else I am supposed to contact?
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01:59<jongoingcrazy>Help! I suppose BTS stands for Bug Tracking System. Is there no provision for human error?
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02:17<jongoingcrazy>Help!
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02:23<jongoingcrazy>Help!
02:24<cc>!ask
02:24<dpkg>If you have a question, just ask! For example: "I have a problem with ___; I'm running Debian version ___. When I try to do ___ I get the following output ___. I expected it to do ___." Don't ask if you can ask, if anyone uses it, or pick one person to ask. We're all volunteers; make it easy for us to help you. If you don't get an answer try a few hours later or on https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/ See <smart questions><errors>.
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02:25<themill>jongoingcrazy: there's not really anything more anyone can say at this point
02:25<themill>unsending emails is about as possible as unscrambling eggs.
02:27<jongoingcrazy>So I understand correctly, that there is no way to remove my erroneously submitted and archived bug report, containing personal information, from bugs.debian.org?
02:28<jongoingcrazy>I, for one, am not going to report any more bugs, if there is no room for human error in the Debian Bug Tracking System.
02:29<bentham>jongoingcrazy: I'm sure it's already been archived by many third parties by now, so your personal information is probably compromised. At best you could get the Debian team to remove it from the 'official' Debian web pages, but what would be the point when it's already on {archive.org, wikileaks, the private caches of your enemies}
02:30<jongoingcrazy>Thanks for explaining third parties. How do I get the Debian team to remove it?
02:31<bentham>No idea. Personally, I never thought it made a difference, so I never bothered to ask.
02:31<bentham>You might consider invoking the GDPR 'right to be forgotten'
02:32<jongoingcrazy>What's GDPR?
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02:32<vdamewood>General Data Protection egulation. an EU law.
02:32<vdamewood>*regulation
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02:33<jongoingcrazy>I am trying to promote Debian, not attack it. How do I contact the Debian Team?
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02:34<Blendie>probably #debian-devs
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02:35<ronald>Hi everyone, I'm surprised that there's no fbpdf package in the stable repos, any alternative you know of? Thanks :D
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02:36<Bitwiser>ronald: You can always clone from the source https://github.com/aligrudi/fbpdf
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02:42<ronald>Ok thanks, I will try luck building it.
02:43<themill>jongoingcrazy: as I said, emailing the bts admins
02:44<jongoingcrazy>As I asked: what's their email?
02:44<themill>you said you'd already done so
02:45<PaulePanter>Hi. Any ideas, why Firefox 88 is still in testing/unstable, and not the current release 90? It’s only in experimental.
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02:46<jongoingcrazy>Please give a straight answer to a simple question: what's their email?
02:46<themill>PaulePanter: only ESR releases of firefox are fit for a stable release and so the non-esr versions are kept out of testing
02:47<themill>PaulePanter: testing is supposed to be "releasable" so packages that won't be in a stable release (like firefox) are kept out; the firefox-esr package contains just the ESR releases and is allowed to migrate into testing.
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02:49<jongoingcrazy>PP: YOU CAN ONLY USE FIREFOX-ESR ON DEBIAN. NEITHER CHROMIUM NOR FIREFOX ARE KEPT UP TO DATE IN A TIMELY FASHION!
02:49-!-mode/#debian [+o themill] by ChanServ
02:49<cc>wtf
02:49<@themill>jongoingcrazy: your capslock seems to be broken. Might want to fix that.
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02:50-!-mode/#debian [-o themill] by themill
02:50<cc>PaulePanter: 88 is in unstable, 90 is in experimental
02:51<cc>90 will be in unstable at some point when the upload is made
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02:51<cc>90 will be in testing at some point when ESR vesion 90+ releases
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03:00<bentham>Personally, I'm glad that Debian uses firefox-esr. The more up-to-date versions of Firefox contain too many security bugs, especially bugs that affect my privacy, and trusting Mozilla to manage this well is not an acceptable option.
03:01<cc>I would much prefer going back to iceweasel
03:01<cc>but as far as I can understand there simply isn't manpower to maintain that anymore
03:01<bentham>I agree that would be better.
03:02<themill>iceweasel was only a different icon and name
03:02-!-rpittau|afk is now known as rpittau
03:02<cc>didn't it have different defaults out of the box?
03:02<cc>as in about:config values you start with
03:03<themill>Not that I recall; if it did, then Debian's firefox packages could too without any issues
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03:04<bentham>If that's true, then I agree that firefox-esr is better, since the only issue was the copyright, no?
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03:05<Blendie>firefox-esr staying in debian is absolutyly not a problem
03:05*enyc meows
03:06<Blendie>oh cool, a man-cat
03:06<themill>bentham: it was a trademark dispute, not copyright, but yes, it was just about icons and names
03:06<enyc>Blendie: ooOOOOoooOO and 'firefox' only in sid
03:06*enyc spanks Blendie
03:06<enyc>Blendie: enyc gets accused of being a monkeycat
03:06<themill>enyc, Blendie: get a room, thanks :)
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03:07<Blendie>what would we do in there?
03:07<themill>If you're two consenting adults, I don't care. You can just do it there rather than in #debian.
03:07<enyc>bentham: curious now what other FOSS privacy-centric browsers there are, alternate firefox builds/derivs, etc.
03:07<PaulePanter>Thank you everyone. I’d personally prefer the current Firefox release. Especially for video conferences (WebRTC) it’s really a must in my experience.
03:08<enyc>PaulePanter: hrrm, for me, chromium works much better than firefox for webrtc on x201 tablet thinkpad, not sure why
03:08<Blendie>themill: sorry man, i know this is a support channel, i just loose track of it sometimes
03:08<PaulePanter>I would have expected to see it at least in debian-backports.
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03:08<enyc>PaulePanter: I wonder if its' cpu usage / load, or just firefox code limitation or what.
03:09<PaulePanter>enyc: Exactly, because the developers develop for Google Chrome, and do not test well with Mozilla Firefox.
03:09<themill>PaulePanter: yeah, the catch is that backports need to come from testing, otherwise the promises about being able to upgrade from one release to the other are broken
03:10<PaulePanter>Then users get recommended to switch from Firefox to Chrome (Chromium), and there is even less incentive to test with Mozilla Firefox for the developers (of the Web sites
03:10<PaulePanter>)
03:10<PaulePanter>themill: Too bad. Quite a downside.
03:10<enyc>PaulePanter: ;/ well even foss jitsi.meet has this ;/
03:10<PaulePanter>themill: I thought there are rules now, that leave packages (or browsers) can use their internel library copies to eas updates.
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03:11<PaulePanter>enyc: I never had a problem with Jitsi and latest Firefox.
03:11<PaulePanter>bbl
03:11<themill>PaulePanter: that's certainly happening a bit but there is a significant downside to using bundled copies too — namely that security updates are problematic
03:11<enyc>PaulePanter: I wonder if firefox implementation just needs faster machine
03:12<themill>PaulePanter: backports.debian.org has an explicit promise that you can upgrade from buster+buster-backports to bullseye; if packages end up in buster-backports and are not in bullseye, then the user is in a dead-end on the upgrade path and that's not great.
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03:24<bentham>enyc: there is Tor Browser
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03:25<bentham>The only reason that I do not specifically ask for Tor Browser to be fast-tracked like Firefox-ESR is that Tor Project runs its own deb repository.
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03:49<Cork>is it possible to tell apt install to show what it would do without installing anything?
03:51<ansgar>Cork: -s, --simulate, --just-print, --dry-run, --recon, --no-act
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03:55<Cork>ansgar: thx, where do one find this? it isn't listed in either man or --help
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03:55<Cork>ah, from apt-gets man page
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04:07<PaulePanter>bentham: The Tor Browser is probably also built with non-system libraries, and would have the same problems which Firefox currently has.
04:08<PaulePanter>Anyway, with the browser situation, for me personally, I am reinforced, that for desktop usage, Debian sid/unstable is the way to go. (And I am happily doing so since several years now.)
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06:02<Leonid>hallo
06:02<Leonid>some one here
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06:04<Leonid>ach hello
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06:15<PaulePanter>Leonid: Just ask the question.
06:15<RoyK>,v roundcube
06:15<judd>Package: roundcube on amd64 -- stretch-proposed-updates: 1.2.3+dfsg.1-4+deb9u5; stretch-security: 1.2.3+dfsg.1-4+deb9u5; stretch: 1.2.3+dfsg.1-4+deb9u6; buster: 1.3.16+dfsg.1-1~deb10u1; buster-security: 1.3.16+dfsg.1-1~deb10u1; buster-backports: 1.4.11+dfsg.1-4~bpo10+1; bullseye: 1.4.11+dfsg.1-4; sid: 1.4.11+dfsg.1-4; experimental: 1.5~rc+dfsg.1-1
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07:28<drebs>hi! i'm using netboot debian-installer, and it hangs right in the beginning while downloading Release files at 0%. Seems like a network problem, but when i switch to another console i can wget the same URL just fine.
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07:30<drebs>Someone knows which reasons could get the curses interface download of Releases to hang while the same command works just fine in another console?
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07:31<jm_>can't you go back and repeat that step?
07:33<drebs>jm_, that screen doesn't have a cancel button. If i wait hours, it fails with timeout, and if i change the mirror it has no effect.
07:33<drebs>i can also kill wget, but then the next one just hangs again (the first wget tries oldstable, the next one stable, etc)
07:33<jm_>drebs: ok and when it fails, can you go back?
07:33<drebs>yes
07:34<jm_>ok you already answered my next question :)
07:34<drebs>changing mirrors?
07:34<jm_>no, I was going to ask if repeating that steps results in the same thing
07:34<drebs>ah ok
07:34<drebs>yes, same thing
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07:35<jm_>does wget process finish?
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07:36<drebs>the one run by debian-installer times out, the one i run manually when i switch to alt+f2 works just fine and downloads the Release file correctly
07:36<drebs>(not sure that's the answer you're looking for?)
07:36<jm_>so the wget process is actually running all that time?
07:36<drebs>yes
07:36<jenn83>just for following reasons. what stable package are you installing? and on a live dvd or a usb or a key?
07:37<drebs>i'm using tftp to boot a netboot image
07:37<jenn83>ohithere, ok. thanks.
07:37<drebs>it worked fine for the previous vm install
07:37<drebs>same process
07:38<jm_>hmm not sure how to inspect this further, the tools are quite limited at that stage
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07:39*jenn83 wonder which ghost is trying to type with me on this junkie machine.
07:39<drebs>i just re-checked: running wget http://deb.debian.org/debian/dists/oldstable/Release works fine in the f2 console.. changing to ftp.us or ftp.br also works
07:39<jenn83>buster?
07:39<drebs>buster, yes
07:39<jenn83>or the previus
07:39<jenn83>ok
07:40<jm_>I'd replace wget with a shell script and add options for logging/showing request/response data etc.
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07:40<drebs>jm_, hum, interesting idea!
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07:50<drebs>aha
07:50<drebs>vound a proxy config in the environment
07:50<drebs>*found
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07:51<drebs>jm_, you rock! ;)
07:51<jm_>hah nice
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07:52<Leonid>jm_ , can i ask question >
07:52<Leonid>?
07:52<petn-randall>Leonid: Yes, just ask.
07:54<Leonid>petn-randall i hive server https://site/~user works
07:54<Leonid>but when i try to use site-anable /home/user/public_html like user.site.com
07:55<Leonid>i meen virtual_host
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08:16<cc>is there a way to make apt not ask any questions during `apt update` ?
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08:17<cc>I launched it and left it alone to install a few hundred packages, only to come back a few hours later to see that it's stuck in the middle of installation telling me that it will have to install xscreensaver (very, very helpful information btw)
08:19<diogenes_oftc>cc, with -y
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08:20<petn-randall>cc: `apt update` shouldn't ask for anything. You probably mean `apt upgrade` or `apt dist-upgrade`.
08:20<cc>yes, it was apt full-upgrade
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08:21<petn-randall>cc: Is this raspbian? I'm not aware of any package that would tell you to install xscreensaver. Unless you mean it took hours to resolve the upgrade path.
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08:21<cc>restart xscreensaver, not install, sorry
08:22<jm_>you sure that's from apt and not debconf?
08:22<cc>I did not run debconf
08:23<jm_>debconf is used by packages to ask questions during istall
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08:23<jm_>my point is, if it's not apt asking about it, you're looking at wrong way to address the issue
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08:52<petn-randall>If it's asking to restart xscreensaver, that's likely from "needrestart" and at the end of the upgrade.
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09:40<southerntofu>hello, what's the current status with diff/delta upgrades in Debian? i read some mailing list threads a few years ago about it and found this wiki page https://wiki.debian.org/Teams/Dpkg/Spec/DeltaDebs
09:40<southerntofu>but i'm interested in more recent developments :)
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09:52<petn-randall>southerntofu: To my knowledge this isn't being actively worked on, and it's not implemented in any way yet.
09:53<southerntofu>petn-randall: thanks for info! please let me know if some other peple have more information
09:53<southerntofu>or if some people would be interested to start experiments / working-group about that, i'd be happy to be a beta tester
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10:00<petn-randall>southerntofu: I think the reason it lost momentum is that bandwidth is cheap, and it adds complexity to a stack of applications with returns diminishing as time moves on.
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10:01<somiaj>Also requires you to keep coppies of all the .debs you have installed downloaded, and most just delete them with apt-get clean (note apt doens't keep them by default)
10:01<imMute>also, not everybody upgrades N -> N+1, sometimes they skip a couple versions. so now you have to store a bunch of diffs
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10:02<southerntofu>petn-randall: i think that "bandwidth is cheap" argument was properly argued against on the mailing list years ago, that we're not just talking about a few % reduction here but up to 30-99% depending on update... also not everywhere/everyone has cheap bandwidth, or even when it's cheap it doesn't have to be reliable
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10:03<southerntofu>somiaj, imMute good arguments, but there's probably strategies that can be deployed if we're wanting to actually investigate this issue :)
10:04<southerntofu>soo let's just say i'm curious and looking for more people curious about this issue
10:04<somiaj>southerntofu: also testing/unstable is a much different beast than stable, and debian's focus in on stable, which gets very few updates anyways
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10:05<somiaj>southerntofu: another thing to point out, is diff's are more for text files, not binarries, so this also adds another level of complexity, since .debs are binaries.
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10:05<southerntofu>somiaj: why would diffs be only for text files? there's good tools for binary diff patching
10:05<somiaj>not that it can't be done, but sometimes a small change in the source causes a large change in the binary.
10:06<southerntofu>agreed, but most times security updates are only a few bytes/kilobytes patches :)
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10:07<somiaj>I just see another layer of complexity that will increase the amount of testing required, which when your talking about 60,000+ packages isn't a simple task
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10:08<somiaj>Though I do agree, I think a better way to deal with offline upgrades, or bad internet connections is needed. I just personally don't think diffs are the way to go about it
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10:09<southerntofu>well local apt proxy discovery goes a long way to improve things, but doesn't solve the problem that when your uplink is bad, even the local proxy has trouble keeping up to date
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10:09<southerntofu>PROBABLY torrent/IPFS P2P updates would help EVEN MORE (where your local APT proxy could serve as seed), but is there anyone researching/implementing that in fact?
10:09<amacater>No - there's no good way to do binary patching or we would have done it years ago. Also, you don't want anything to break reproducible builds ...
10:09<somiaj>Yea, and there needs to be a better way to deal with offline upgrades in stable. Though it is an issue most don't have, thus few are intersted in developing the time.
10:10<somiaj>the issue is what would work good in stable may not work so well in testing/unstable, and the infstructure has to support both.
10:12<southerntofu>amacater: i haven't tried binary patching so take it with a grain of salt, but i heard very good things about bsdiff? also in my view reproducible builds is in fact a prerequisite for differential upgrades, as it's the only way to know you're getting a correct diff and not some random junk
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10:17<imMute>config files would proably need to be handled specially. or any package that you modify a config file from will never be able to do a delta upgrade (since one of the files will always be different from the original package)
10:17<southerntofu>agreed
10:18<somiaj>imMute: here the idea is you delta the .deb, so everything else would work as normal.
10:19<somiaj>so you just need to keep a copy of each .deb you have installed on your machine to take advantage of this
10:19<imMute>ah, I was thinking it was diff'd against the files installed. so now you have to keep a big pile of .debs around, trading disk space for bandwidth.
10:20<somiaj>In either case it isn't a simple problem, and it affects so little (since most have decent bandwidth)
10:21<somiaj>And if targeting stable, outside of point releases, upgrades are faily small compartivally anyways, though as mentioned, I think a better way to deal with security/offline upgrades in stable is needed. I don't think binary diffs is the answer.
10:21<imMute>how does offline upgrades play into this?
10:21<petn-randall>The problem with debdiffs is that on a mirror you'd have to hold not only the newest package, but also the old ones and the debdiffs, too. Which means that for every updated package you'd have to hold several versions of it. And with the current full mirror clocking at around ~ 3.5 TB, I think a lot of current mirror providers would go "nah" when asking for triple the disk space.
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10:22<somiaj>imMute: the reason the user wants diff upgrades is due to a poor internet connection, in that case an offline upgrade would be something that could also solve the issue.
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10:25<imMute>oh, like apt-offline?
10:26<amacater>Offline upgrade - grab the 16G iso image from a point release and use that - you just have to find someone to use jigdo-lite to generate it for you.
10:26<somiaj>you shouldn't need to grab a full iso, only need to grab the upgraded packages. They use to create -upgrade isos for just that
10:28<amacater>16G stick is convenient. Again, upgrade .isos tend to clog up the cd image mirror
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10:52<southerntofu>somiaj: "most have decent bandwidth" <-- source? i can't count how many times, though in an industrialized western country (France) i've found myself without decent Internet, as recently as a few weeks ago still!
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10:53<southerntofu>petn-randall: buuut maybe diff caches don't have to be the same APT mirrors? eg. we could operate "diff mirrors" on our own, maybe?
10:55<tpfkaj>when i can use my terminal in the future. that sudo aduser $USER kvm -> is the bold letter with the money symbol where i would put my fake name for the user to make virtual boxes? just asking
10:57<imMute>tpfkaj: it's where you insert your user name. you could maybe put $USER there literally - a lot of shells define that variable to be your username.
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10:57<tpfkaj>ok. I am just learning bash sort of. thank you.
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10:58<tpfkaj>and finding out the hard way about GRUB2
10:59<tpfkaj>And GRUB 2. Is making me .. lose it. on junkie machines that i just want linux. *** YOU can't just wipe away windows 10 anymore.
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11:01<imMute>pretty sure you can. probably need to do the partitioning yourself so it doesn't try to preserve the windows install
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11:01<southerntofu>tpfkaj: the debian installer has the option to use the full disk, OR to keep existing systems and use available free space
11:02<jhutchins>southerntofu: If you had a perfect connection chain at all hops from your system to the repo, AND a perfect chain back, you'd get 100% performance. All it takes is for one node in the chain to get bogged down or have corruption problems and you'll feel it.
11:02<tpfkaj>Right, when my learning curve get closer to the UP side. I will partition the stupid thing. someone put a x09 certificate. and made a lo jack on that machine. it waits for me patiently in my storerom.
11:02<jhutchins>southerntofu: No country has 100% reliable high-speed connectivity, it's still a mash up of professional, amateur, and incompetent implementation.
11:02<tpfkaj>yes. i do that full disk.
11:03<southerntofu>tpfkaj: so you're full disk but grub finds windows installed?! is it setup on another disk?
11:03<southerntofu>what do you want to do in fact?
11:03<southerntofu>jhutchins: about diff mirrors?
11:03<tpfkaj>BUT, when I shut it down. It refuses to start. So when I've reinstalled to many times its choked. never to be resusitaed till i put ugly windows 10 back on
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11:04<tpfkaj>noahm, it has an error that i don't understand. so i just reinstall junkie windows. then install debian again.
11:05<vv221>southerntofu, I remember trying some delta system for apt years ago, but I’m not sure I could easily find its name again.
11:06<southerntofu>tpfkaj: what's the error? on dbeian or windows side? if you want to configure grub2 to find windows, all you need is apt install os-prober (and maybe regenerate grub config?)
11:06<vv221>The main issue I had with it was the lack of compatibility with proxies like apt-cacher-ng, that I used as another way to reduce bandwidth usage.
11:06<tpfkaj>i have 2 junk old machines. and one (shh. a windows machine that I am not allowed to wreck. ) and I have. then I get in some trouble. its ok. someday. i will have all debian stable machine with a linux mint for my dvd. collection.
11:06<tpfkaj>hole on. southerntofu.
11:06<jhutchins>southerntofu: I think somewhere we have the Gentoo program that tests a list of repos and picks the cleanest connection. Can't think of the package name, more coffee.
11:07<southerntofu>vv221: yes there was a very intersting thread on the ML years ago, but it seems to have faded? still traces of that on the wiki https://wiki.debian.org/Teams/Dpkg/Spec/DeltaDebs
11:07<jhutchins>southerntofu: All of that should be there in a default install.
11:07<tpfkaj>currently i trying to install over a clean install on .hole on . have to go to another office. (sheks.)
11:08<tpfkaj>thanks . brb
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11:08<southerntofu>vv221: but no cmopatibility with apt-cacher-ng and usch is indeed a problem..
11:08<vv221>southerntofu, I guess the main issue here is that most developers have access to better network infrastructure than whait is widely available, making tools like this look like low priority.
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11:09<vv221>When I talk about "bandwidth waste", a lot of people do not seem to understand ;)
11:09<southerntofu>vv221: i agree with your point.. it's just like developres making bloated electron apps because it works on their 16GB RAM machine.... :(
11:09<blast007>jhutchins: thinking of netselect-apt?
11:10<vv221>Ouch, I’ve been a professional Web developer for a couple years, bloated is the rule there…
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11:10<vv221>Of course, we tested websites on 16GB RAM machines with optic fiber network access.
11:11<vv221>Then wondered why clients felt the websites were unresponsive ;)
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11:15<jhutchins>blast007: Well, actual netselect, but netselect-apt would be relevant here.
11:16<jhutchins>vv221: I'm not sure how you can throttle a VM to look like a low grade, ten-year-old system, but it might be possible.
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11:16<imMute>jhutchins: chrome has tools built in to reduce bandwidth and add latency and/or packet loss
11:16<jhutchins>vv221: Of course, you could always drop by the neighborhood independent shop and pick up a junker on expense.
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11:19<vv221>Right, there are bandwidth-limiting tools in Firefox too.
11:19<vv221>But the main issue is that *nothing* should warrant using such powerful machines for website developments…
11:20<vv221>Unless of course the devs are using Electron-based IDE ;)
11:20<vv221>(spoiler: they do)
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11:31<vv221>southerntofu, have you tried `debdelta-upgrade`? (cf. https://packages.debian.org/buster/debdelta & https://debdelta.debian.net/)
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11:33<southerntofu>vv221: ah thanks i didn't know there was a website! though no updates since 2017 in the news section :)
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11:34<vv221>I wondered about that too, but I see .debdelta are generated even for current packages: http://debdeltas.debian.net/debian-deltas/pool/main/f/firefox/
11:35<tpfkaj>back -scrolling. read the link on the install. and well, I never check the checksum. (i just figure I'll re-install if problems arrive. It took me a long time just to finally have time to REALLY use Linux in my real life and not the junk stuff .. The rest of the population of the world has to put up with. This is my rant. when I install on this machine. I realize I have to put buster on. I cant do debian 11. debian ( hmm the spell c
11:35<tpfkaj>heck doesn't like Debian. ah. its the capitol.
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11:39<tpfkaj>thank you southerntofu.
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11:44<joeDoe>sudo dd if=debian-installer.iso of=/dev/sdd results in "dd: failed to open '/dev/sdd': No medium found", but "ls -gGd /dev/sd*" shows "brw-rw---- 1 8, 48 Jul 28 11:34 /dev/sdd". Anyone know what's wrong with my command?
11:47<vv221>The dd command itself looks good.
11:48<vv221>But I remember seeing such "No medium found" errors with corrupted/broken storage devices.
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11:50<joeDoe>I can mount the current partitions on the device no problem, and list there contents, so I think the device is ok unless it's some really obscure problem
11:50<joeDoe>list *their* contents
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11:52<southerntofu>vv221: i'll try to send a mail to the maintainer http://mennucc1.debian.net/ i'll tell you if i receive anything :)
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11:56<jhutchins>joeDoe: That's a common mode of failure for some windows iso burners.
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11:57<vv221>Thanks southerntofu, keep me tuned ;)
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12:43<jhutchins>Guest1179: What do you need?
12:43<Sqrt{not}>hi ptribuda what is your question
12:43<jhutchins>Guest1179: What did you try to do? How did you try to do it? What did you expect to happen? What happened instead?
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13:23<TomyWork>I'm on debian 9.13 (stretch). I'm trying to determine the 2nd-to-last time a service was started. The service's logs don't go back that far, the journal starts some time today, auth.log, daemon.log, syslog, kern.log all contain no useful information. What else can I check?
13:23<TomyWork>bash history doesnt have timestamps
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13:25<sney>that information may be lost now, but for the future you can:
13:25<sney>!persistent journal
13:25<dpkg>In Debian releases 8-10, systemd's journal is not persistent by default. To enable a persistent journal, enable Storage=persistent in /etc/systemd/journald.conf. Persistence will be the default in Debian 11 Bullseye.
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13:25<petn-randall>TomyWork: It should show up in daemon.log, as long as it's not so far back that it got deleted.
13:26<TomyWork>then it got deleted, unfortunately
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13:27<petn-randall>TomyWork: For future reference, you can either do the persistent journal above, or configure your syslog to save the logs longer.
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13:30<jhutchins>TomyWork: Since you can't go ack in time to re-set your logging parameters, perhaps the problem should be addressed in the current environment. What service are you asking about?
13:30<TomyWork>the thing is, I found some broken timestamp in that service's logfiles. the timestamp is apr 14 1970, which is about 6 days ago if you add that timestamp to the time the machine was booted
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13:31<TomyWork>I'll just assume that's what it's based on and not the service start date
13:31<sney>days since start, and interpreted as a unix date string?
13:31<TomyWork>yes
13:33<TomyWork>date -d "@$(( $(date -d 'Tue Apr 14 17:54:00 CET 1970' +%s) + $(date -r /proc +%s) ))" # hah
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13:36<TomyWork>that's almost exactly 15 minutes before the log message
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13:56<debian-lxde___>hello
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13:56<debian-lxde___>I want the new Adwaita theme, is there a way o get on Stable?
13:56<debian-lxde___>*to
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13:58<bremner>what is the package name?
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13:59<bremner>gnome-themes-extra?
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13:59<debian-lxde___>It's a core GNOME theme
13:59<debian-lxde___>then icon theme
14:00<debian-lxde___>bremner: package name "adwaita-icon-theme"
14:01<bremner>and what version are you after? 40.1?
14:01<bremner>or 3.38?
14:02<debian-lxde___>whatever is in Unstable
14:02<debian-lxde___>probably 40.1
14:02<debian-lxde___>*testing
14:02<bremner>nope. 40.1 is in experimental
14:02<bremner>only
14:02<debian-lxde___>oh
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14:02<bremner>you could try !ssb
14:02<bremner>!ssb
14:02<dpkg>First, check for a backport on <debian-backports>. If unavailable: 1) Add a deb-src line for sid (not a deb line!); ask me about <deb-src sid> 2) enable debian-backports (see <bdo>) 3) apt update; apt install build-essential; apt build-dep packagename 4) apt -b source packagename 5) dpkg -i packagename-ver.deb To change compilation options, see <package recompile>; for versions newer than sid see <uupdate>.
14:02<debian-lxde___>i would be fine with the 40.1 as it would probably be better actuslly
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14:02<debian-lxde___>!ssb
14:03<bremner>there is no backport, I don't know how tightly coupled to gnome versions the icon themes are.
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14:10<debian-lxde___>!bdo
14:10<dpkg>backports.debian.org (formerly backports.org) is an official repository of <backports> for the current stable (see <buster backports>) and oldstable (<stretch backports>) distributions, prepared by Debian developers. Ask me about <backport caveat> and read http://backports.debian.org/Instructions/. See also <bdo kernel> <bdo mirrors> <bdo contents> <bdo list> <bdo bugs> <bdo xorg> <bdo NEW>.
14:11<bremner>you can also "/query dpkg" for long discussions
14:11<debian-lxde___>how do i enable backports
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14:12<vv221>You have the instructions litteraly under your nose ;)
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14:12<debian-lxde___>oh wait
14:12<debian-lxde___>it day
14:12<bremner>note there is no backport of adwaita-icon-theme
14:12<debian-lxde___>says
14:12<bremner>(on bdo)
14:12<vv221>(http://backports.debian.org/Instructions/ from dpkg message)
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14:14<urk>jcnaught: Just following to find out what I need to do next after copying the ssh encrypted hash to the new computer? The couple of websites I was following didn't seem to offer a huge amount of info after that. I think they were https://phoenixnap.com/kb/ssh-to-connect-to-remote-server-linux-or-windows https://medium.com/@jakewies/accessing-remote-machines-using-ssh-55a0fdf5e9d8
14:14<urk>What do I need to do to see the actual stuff on the other computer?
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14:21<debian-lxde___>wait
14:22<debian-lxde___>i can just install the .deb from thghe repo
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14:24<bremner>yeah, no guarantees that will work.
14:25<FLHerne>urk: make sure sshd is running on the other computer, then `ssh user@other.computer`
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14:26<FLHerne>where that's the IP address or domain name
14:26<FLHerne>or hostname if it's in your hosts file
14:26<urk>FLHerne: I am not sure how to do that. The only instructions the two website offered is how to copy the ssh pair and to ssh into the ip of the other computer.
14:27<urk>I have been using the IP since I am not certain as to what host name is on the other computer.
14:28<imMute>"ssh into the ip of the other computer" is exactly what FLHerne was describing
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14:31<scorpion2185[m]>I want to try openbox is there a good guide? some settings are available via LXDE settings for example
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14:44<felco>imirkin_> felco: cool, you should let your distro know that they shouldn't be shipping nouveau 3d accel by default i guess?
14:45<felco>turning the accel of stabilized my system
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14:52<debian-lxde___>bremner: it's an icon theme, why wouldn't it?
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14:52<FLHerne>urk: then it's unclear what you're asking
14:53<FLHerne>what do you want to see?
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14:53<FLHerne>If you ssh into the other computer, you can poke around as if you had a local shell
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15:09<tpfkaj>wrong port interface. lol
15:09<tpfkaj>b
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15:12<scorpion2185[m]>what is the nest WM? to use it as GUI like OB
15:12<scorpion2185[m]> * what is the best WM? to use it as GUI like OB
15:13<sarnold>"OB"?
15:13<scorpion2185[m]>openbox
15:13<sarnold>"best" is hard to tell you, though, there's something like a thousand window maangers because there's a lot of people who think that none of the existing ones are good enough, so they make their own
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15:19<fixx5324>which PC mainboards are best for debian? which laptops? which wifi-usb? I want them to work o.k. even without non-free binaries/firmware, and to be secure and supported
15:19<scorpion2185[m]>what WM would you use?
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15:21<debian-lxde___>For some reason my system only boots 50% of the time
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15:24<sarnold>scorpion2185[m]: I use i3wm, it's a tiling-based window manager. it's been ~15 years since I used openbox, so I'm not sure what it's like today, but the openbox I remember is pretty different from the i3wm that I use now
15:25<vv221>I’m quite sure today openbox is very similar to 15 years ago openbox ;)
15:26<debian-lxde___>It is only like this with Debian
15:26<scorpion2185[m]>openbox developement stopped years ago
15:26<scorpion2185[m]>sarnold: what apps do you use with i3? panel, dock , net manager etc.
15:26<jmcnaught>debian-lxde___: what does it do the other 50% of the time? How far does it get into the boot process?
15:27<sarnold>scorpion2185[m]: here's my ~/.xsession https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/zhHMGZhBn7/
15:27<debian-lxde___>jmcnaught: It doesn't do anything. Screen doesn't even turn on at all. (This is an old HP Mini laptop just so you know)
15:28<vv221>sarnold, any difference that we should know of between ~/.xsession and ~/.xinitrc? (I’m using the second one, and it looks a lot like your .xsession)
15:28<debian-lxde___>However, the power switch light turns on
15:28<debian-lxde___>and possibly the network light
15:28<jmcnaught>debian-lxde___: do you get a GRUB prompt?
15:28<debian-lxde___>no
15:29<debian-lxde___>no screen on at all
15:29<sarnold>vv221: afaik ~/.xinitrc is used when you start x via startx, and ~/.xsession is used when you use a display manager like xdm
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15:36<debian-lxde___>jmcnaught: nothing at all
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15:37<scorpion2185[m]># Lower volume on thumb wheel down
15:37<scorpion2185[m]> "xte 'key XF86AudioLowerVolume'" b:8
15:37<jmcnaught>debian-lxde___: when it does boot, have you checked the logs for errors? If it does not even reach GRUB it sounds more like a hardware issue, but you say it only happens with Debian?
15:38<debian-lxde___>it only happens with debian. How would I check the logs
15:38<scorpion2185[m]>that doesn't work on openbox what do I need an audio app?
15:39<jmcnaught>debian-lxde___: Use the journalctl command as root
15:39<debian-lxde___>.ok
15:40<debian-lxde___>the logs start at boot
15:40<debian-lxde___>successful boot
15:41<debian-lxde___>Jul 28 20:15:51 hp-mini kernel: Calgary: Unable to locate Rio Grande table in EBDA - bailing!
15:41<debian-lxde___>this is the first error i found
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15:42<debian-lxde___>ul 28 20:15:51 hp-mini kernel: ACPI: [Firmware Bug]: BIOS _OSI(Linux) query ignored
15:42<debian-lxde___>this one was in bold
15:42<debian-lxde___>jmcnaught: this one was red and bold: Jul 28 20:15:51 hp-mini kernel: ACPI BIOS Error (bug): \_SB.PCI0._OSC: Excess arguments - ASL declared 5, ACPI requires 4 (20180810/nsarguments-164)
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15:43<Forty-Bot>is there an alternative to `exec -a` for dash?
15:44<jmcnaught>debian-lxde___: I would search for any errors you think could be related to your problem or potential hardware issues in search engine
15:45<debian-lxde___>The errors related to firmware (ACPI BIOS, the second one) show up on boot on every distro, so no idea why debian not work
15:46<debian-lxde___>The only BIOS update files are .exe's so i cant do tha
15:46<debian-lxde___>*thst
15:46<debian-lxde___>That
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15:50<Sqrt{not}>debian-lxde___, which debian version are you booting there? When debian boots only 50% of the time, what other OS do you boot sometimes that works better?
15:50<debian-lxde___>Debian 10, testing is the same
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15:51<debian-lxde___>Any other distro, like Arch or Void (both have been tested) have no issue.
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15:59<jmcnaught>It is strange that the display does not power on at all, not even for POST? If the computer has a VGA or HDMI port what happens if you plug it into an external display?
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16:18<jhutchins>,v 1password
16:18<judd>No package named '1password' was found in amd64.
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16:23<fixx5324><debian-lxde___> For some reason my system only boots 50% of the time
16:23<fixx5324>is it a quantum computer?
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16:36<jhutchins>fixx5324: What does it do the other 50%?
16:37<jhutchins>fixx5324: How are you shutting it down?
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17:22<user01>im having this continuous problem with dac and pulseaudio on debian -- so I've configured pulse to detect the file resolution and playback at that rate. So on boot, I open a 96kHz file, fine DAC shows playback at 96kHz...
17:23<user01>if i close and then play audio from chrome, goes to 44.1 kHz on DAC, fine, to be expected. . .
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17:23<user01>if i close chrome then try to play the 96kHz file, plays back at 44.1kHz
17:23<user01>and starts popping
17:24<user01>pulseaudio said it was a debian issue -- it is treating it like there are 2 sinks open i think when the chrome has been terminated
17:25<user01>when 2 or more sinks are open it defaults to the lowest bitrate
17:25<user01>so i think it is something with pulseaudio not recognizing that a sink was closed or something
17:25<sney>is chrome actually terminated? I know it likes to keep a background process even with no windows open.
17:25<user01>hmmm
17:25<user01>pkill chrome would do it?
17:26<sney>probably, or if you have a systray there may be something you can right click exit
17:26<user01>same issue
17:27<user01>i did pkill chrome and still plays at 44.1kHz
17:28<user01>i have to reboot debian in order for it to play at proper bitrate once that happens usually
17:28<user01>let me try pulseaudio -k
17:28<user01>i think that generally fails too
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17:29<user01>yeah pulseaudio -k didnt reset anything
17:30<sney>while you're running these commands, make sure to check with some process monitor that the services/programs etc are actually being closed or restarted, some can be stubborn and remain in memory at times.
17:32<user01>htop ok?
17:32<sney>whatever you prefer
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17:35<jhutchins>user01: If chrome is closed, what app is playing the file?
17:36<user01>jhutchins, audacious
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17:41<user01>everything is killed that could possibly interfere i think besides pulseaudio and pavucontrol
17:41<user01>according to htop
17:42<user01>it shows 3 pavucontrols running which is odd
17:42<user01>child processes maybe
17:43<user01>huh that did it :D
17:43<user01>i sent kill for pavucontrol
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17:45<user01>sounds much better now
17:46<user01>and showing 96kHz
17:48<user01>i guess i just have to kill pavucontrol after each audio run
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17:49<user01>better than rebooting each time, would be nice if that could be patched though
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18:07<aloo_shu>pulseaudio said it was a debian issue - that's always sweet
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18:10<user01>aloo_shu, yeah and not very helpful they said it was my fault for not closing sinks
18:10<aloo_shu>so your dac does have a hw display for the sampling rate it's operating on? when playing back 96kHz file at 44.1kHz, do you only have pops/glitches, or also a different pitch, appx 1 octave (much) too low
18:10<sney>isn't pavucontrol somewhat unmaintained, and discouraged in favor of whatever desktop pulse widgets
18:10<user01>aloo_shu, yes it has a hw display to know what sample is being sent
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18:13<user01>aloo_shu, it is supposed to be linux compatible too from reviews i read
18:13<user01>aloo_shu, this is the dac https://drop.com/buy/topping-d10
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18:15<aloo_shu>the not closing sink part might be right, although whose responsibility to handle that situation - but, and that's why I was asking for pitch, there might be an additional issue with alsa or pulse not having enough priority to handle the resampling, i.e. the usual answer when card s/r and stream s/r do not match, traditionally alsa's task, but I wouldn't be surprised if pulse got into
18:15<aloo_shu>that, in fact, it pretty much would have to, with its intended use as a multi stream server, since there is zero guarantee that all streams are having the same s/r
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18:15<aloo_shu>nah it's not the dac's responsibility pretty, just wanted to know where you had the card s/r from
18:15<aloo_shu>*pretty sure
18:17<user01>aloo_shu, ive just been reading from the hw output panel what s/r it is receiving
18:17<user01>it has been accurate to my knowledge
18:18<aloo_shu>I know for sure that pulse does have some patchy config settings to deal with the fact that it can get behind on processing with not enough resources, now if it would log 'xruns' (buffer over/underflows) the way jack does. that would help. maybe it does?
18:19<user01>sooo . . . i just played something on google chrome now it went to 44.1 kHz, then back to audacious and it behaved correctly . . . maybe the whole problem is pavucontrol . . . since I killed it it is working perfectly
18:20<user01>should i try force uninstalling pavucontrol? is it needed for anything?
18:20<aloo_shu>what I'm getting at, unnecessarily staying on the wrong sampling rate, and failing to re-sample seamlessly, are two distinct problems imo
18:21<user01>aloo_shu, there is a setting in pulse that it automatically resamples and i have that enabled . . . i think the issue is the first staying at the wrong sampling rate . . .
18:22<aloo_shu>the good news is that you could fix the problem either way, since both parts are needed to manifest the misbehaviour. I think uninstalling pavucontrol is an option, maybe first look what is preveting uninstalling without forcing
18:24<user01>aloo_shu, well i just meant apt purge pavucontrol
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18:24<aloo_shu>well I say they are 2 things combining - assume chrome is playig back youtube @ 48kHz, while you got a media player with some bakground music @ 44.1 - pulse would have to resample oe of the two, that's inteded use, and eactly its selling point over naked alsa
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18:27<user01>aloo_shu, i get it should resample when there are two streams to the lowest (not sure why 2 streams would be needed to playing at the same time unless mixing but OK)
18:27<user01>aloo_shu, the issue was the sink not dying
18:27<user01>aloo_shu, when not in use and app closed
18:27<aloo_shu>oh purge=force, purge just means remove config, too, so if ever you re-istall, it's like virgin - both conf errors ad desktop integration would be gone, you could kind of hope that the install scripts will take care of integration, in an idee3al world, would you want to re-install
18:28<user01>aloo_shu, yes i dont know what caused it . .. im going to reboot now and see if it still works seamlessly now
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18:32<user01>aloo_shu, yes it is working fine now with pavucontrol purged
18:33<user01>aloo_shu, behavior, 96kHz file plays as such in audacious, youtube plays at 44.1 kHz, audacious plays 96kHz file at 44.1 kHz when youtube still open, and when chrome closed file plays at 96kHz again
18:33<user01>pavucontrol was the issue
18:34<sney>last pavucontrol upstream release was >2 years ago, maybe some pulse update broke compatibility for edge cases like this
18:34<aloo_shu>also I maybe misinterpreted, if it's really the sink not dying, i.e. same soundcard (dac) appearing as 2 sinks. I probably thought sources of streams aleady ended, and that should be handled
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18:36<aloo_shu>sney: if that was the case, there ought to be a conflicts entry for dependeny management
18:36<aloo_shu>-cy
18:36<sney>aloo_shu: sure, ideally, if the bug was discovered prior to now
18:37<aloo_shu>that would mean reproducing it
18:37<sney>indeed, and if it's device specific, that might not be enough justification anyway
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18:38<aloo_shu>can't help there, my setup is too far from stock
18:38<user01>sney, i dont think it is device specific, i dont think most dacs display actual b/r
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18:39<user01>it was one of the reasons i got it though to ensure sampling was correct
18:39<user01>it really helped for troubleshooting for why i was getting pops
18:40<aloo_shu>oh it might, though, since it's a sensible demand that pulse and alsa should be able to negotiate something sensible even if card support is incomplete
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18:54<aloo_shu>pops vs wrong pitch would help to tell failed/underpowered resampling from playing back with the wrong sampling rate. you'd really want to know where pulse is logging, and if it's verbosity can be increased. I mean, even with two sinks, why would pulse send to both, and why would it allow opening a second sink to a card if it's thinking the card's playback is in use
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21:00<jhutchins>Interesting that yet again, the solution to a sound problem was to get rid of pulseaudio. I thought we were over that and it was at least staying out of the way.
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21:04<sussudio>i got rid of pulseaudio years ago, mainly because it was spamming syslog with nonsense every second or so
21:04<alex11>opinions about systemd? :D
21:05<raven523>alex11: it's alright. it's not worth the effort to try to switch to or away from it though
21:06<alex11>i'm just being a bit silly, systemd being like pulseaudio a lennart poettering invention
21:06<alex11>though both are quite polarizing
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21:15<jhutchins>alex11: Interesting. That says a lot.
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21:22-!-flying_sausages is "The pack of sausages that are very fly" on @#firefox-unregistered #plex @#selfhost @#machomebrew @#fhict @##javascript @##vs-code #zsh @#vagrant @#vscode @#multipass @#raspberrypi @#csharp @#nginx @##java @##programming #django @#powershell
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21:29<truth2>Finding a kernel regression in half an hour with git bisect run
21:29<truth2>https://ldpreload.com/blog/git-bisect-run
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21:34<sarnold>truth2: oh that's cool
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22:39<l>exit
22:39<l>quit
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22:43<sussudio>another chinese bot doing nonsense...
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23:47<urk>Does anyone know if the Prey Control panel will work for Debian?
23:47<urk>Online it says its supports Ubuntu, but the download file is a .deb
23:48<urk>I am trying to unpack it with dpkg -i, but get an error message that looks like a path problem, but I don't see how.
23:48<awal1>dpkg: frankendebian
23:48<dpkg>When you get random packages from random repositories, mix multiple releases of Debian, or mix Debian and derived distributions, you have a mess. There's no way anyone can support this "distribution of Frankenstein" and #debian certainly doesn't want to even try. Ask me about <reinstall>
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23:50<urk>ok. It was a problem with the directory names in the path, but now I have some dependency problems, and missing packages.
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23:52<awal1>best way to try stuff is doing it in a virtual machine
23:52<urk>I now get an error message indicating that streamer is referred to by a different name. Anyone have an idea as to what the name is?
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23:54<urk>Ok, I just did a search, and it looks like it is still in the testing phase, but apparently included in Bullseye https://www.google.com/search?q=What+is+the+package+name+for+streamer+in+Debian+stable%3F&oq=What+is+the+package+name+for+streamer+in+Debian+stable%3F&aqs=chrome..69i57.7565j0j15&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
23:54<urk>I am not going to install it now, and wait a bit.
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23:58<urk>I am trying to access a portable drive that was used to create backup on an older Macbook Pro. I see a big red X by the Documents folder, but this isn't reflected in the file permissions when I run ls -l When I run ls -l the Documents folder has drwxr -xr-x Shouldn't I be able to read it?
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---Logclosed Thu Jul 29 00:00:31 2021