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#debian IRC Logs for 2021-08-12

---Logopened Thu Aug 12 00:00:50 2021
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02:36<Taha>Hello! Is anybody here?
02:36<xormor>Taha: I am.
02:36<Taha>Hello Xormor!
02:36<dpkg>If you have a question, just ask! For example: "I have a problem with ___; I'm running Debian version ___. When I try to do ___ I get the following output ___. I expected it to do ___." Don't ask if you can ask, if anyone uses it, or pick one person to ask. We're all volunteers; make it easy for us to help you. If you don't get an answer try a few hours later or on See <smart questions><errors>.
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02:38<Taha>I just installed a minimal installation of debain 10 to use as a server. I did not install any Desktop environments. When the system booted up, I'm having big troubles connecting to WiFi. The tutorials I found online, all need a package or two that are not pre-installed on debain. Could somebody help me conenct to the wifi?
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02:39<jm_> has good instructions - tried following that?
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02:39<jm_> that is
02:40<jm_>and yes, most wifi drivers require firmware which you will have to install
02:40<Taha>Jm_: I tried it, it doesn't seem to work
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02:40<jm_>Taha: which part specifically?
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02:42<Taha>I managed to make a link to the wifi adapter and search for the available wifi connections. The part that I'm having the problem with is the actual connecting part
02:43<jm_>which device is it?
02:44<Taha>it's called wlp5s0b1
02:44<jm_>I mean hardware, lspci or lsusb should show
02:46<Taha>Aha okay. It is called Broadcom Limited BCM4313 802.11bgn Wireless Network Adapter
02:46<Taha>I had to use the installer with the non-free firmware to make it even work during the installation
02:47<jm_>according to debian does not ship firmware required for it, so you need to acquire it manually
02:47<jm_>(there's a tool in debian to do that)
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02:49<Taha>But I installed Debian with the non-free firmware. I think the firmware is installed too since I can scan and see the wifi connections. I just cant figure out how to connect
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02:49<jm_>so verify that you actually have required firmware - usually driver complains about it if it's missing, i.e. «dmesg | egrep 'b43|firmware'»
02:50<jm_> should help with connection part if everything else is OK
02:52<Taha>Alright, I'll try doing it again. I'll let you know how it goes
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02:57<Taha>So I'm tyring to connect to wifi using as guide but after setting the config file up and trying to do `ifup wlp5sob1` it tells me unknown interface.
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03:08<jm_>earlier you said it's wlp5s0b1
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03:10<Taha>jm_: Oh wow, you're right!!!!!!!!!!!!!
03:10<Taha>I'd made a typo
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03:10<Taha>Can't believe I retyped it and made the same typo. But thank you xD I think it would've taken me a lot of time to figure that typo out
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03:23<aloo_shu>I don't know with ifup, but ip link set <device> up should let you TAB-complete <device>
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03:26<Taha>Thank you so much! Have a nice day
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03:34<somiaj>ifup just requires you first configure the interface in /etc/network/interfaces (Which is mostly a warpper that then calls ip/iw/dhclient/etc)
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05:47<user__>fuck you all
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06:19<mendel_munkis>can anyone recommend a good guide to replacing pulse with pipewire?
06:21<alex11>my understanding is pipewire won't really be ready until debian 12
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06:25<mendel_munkis>thanks, I was talking to an arch user friend who told me that he's been using pipewire and happy with it.
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06:27<alex11>it's definitely in buster and bullseye, but i've just heard people say it won't 'really work' until 12
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06:49<jochum>pipewire works very well here, someone told me jackd replacement isn't working well. @ mendel_munkis
06:49<jochum>mendel_munkis: I'm on bullseye
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06:52<dreamer>I'm running systemwide PW (from source) on bulsseye and it's fine
06:52<dreamer>not the best user experience yet, but it's getting there
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06:52<dreamer>oh `0.3.19` is in bullseye, that's nice
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06:54<vv221>I’m still on ALSA, I might manage to skip PulseAudio if Pipewire is ready soon ;)
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06:56<HolyTaint>Hello, I have quite some questions about postgresql integration in DAK (Debian Archive Kit) regarding specifically the python code. I don't feel this is the correct place to ask, should someone advice the proper devchat to ask about this?
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07:03<crazyfrog>hi, i would like to use lxc but after installation i can't find the command lxc on the system just directories
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07:05<sussudio>maybe install lxc.
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07:06<crazyfrog>xc is already the newest version (1:3.1.0+really3.0.3-8).
07:07<jm_>crazyfrog: what are you trying to run?
07:07<crazyfrog>i try t to create a newwork, lxc network
07:08<HolyTaint>Where could I ask questions about debian DAK's code?
07:12<jm_>as far as I can see, lxc network is meant for lxd and lxd is not in debian yet, see
07:12<judd>Bug in wnpp (open): «ITP: lxd -- The Linux Container Daemon»; severity: wishlist; opened: 2014-11-04; last modified: 2021-01-19.
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07:12<crazyfrog>sorry it was the wrong howto
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07:24<dutchie_>hi, can someone help me a bit with an error im getting while building with sbuild?
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07:25<Guest3967>i can build amd64 packages without problems.
07:25<Guest3967>but when i build for armhf..
07:25<Guest3967>like this, sbuild -d bullseye --host=armhf im getting : Setting up python3.9-minimal:armhf (3.9.2-1) ... /var/lib/dpkg/info/python3.9-minimal.postinst: 51: /usr/bin/python3.9: Exec format error dpkg: error processing package python3.9-minimal:armhf (--configure):
07:25<Guest3967> installed python3.9-minimal:armhf package post-installation script subprocess returned error exit status 126
07:26<Guest3967>anyone knows what im missing, i cant find it, or.. is it "just" a bug..
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07:28<sussudio>Guest3967: are you trying to install a non-debian package into debian or something
07:29<Guest3967>no, im rebuild packages, as test i use talloc
07:30<Guest3967>the setup is same as on :
07:31<Guest3967>now, IF i create a full armhf host to build in, it works, so it has something todo with the crossbuilding..
07:31<Guest3967>but thats exacly why im changing, im prepairing to make official packages for debian.
07:33<dpkg>hmm... mentors is the system the Debian project uses to train new people to become Debian Developers or Debian Maintainers and get their packages into the Debian archive. Ask me about <nmg>. #debian-mentors on (
07:33<Guest3967>yeah, well, i emailed mentors 2 times because im in that list.. 0 repsonse..
07:34<Guest3967>in 3 weeks... 0 zero response.. :-(
07:35<Guest3967>ps. im also building packages already for 5 years now, im building samba and its depends, but im asked to join the debian team.. so, i wanted to change to a build system how its adviced..
07:35<Sebastinas>But what does that have to do with cross building?
07:36<Guest3967>armhf building takes so long now im my current setup, that uses still QEMU..
07:36<Guest3967>i build now, amd64 i386 and armhf. i need more speed in building armhf mainly.
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07:38<themill>Guest3967: how did you set up the crossbuilder chroot? (is there a qemu thing in there to make it work, for instance?)
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07:43<Guest3967>@themill its exacly setup as the wiki showed but im building for buster, so i create a buster host.
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07:45<Guest3967>ps, i build for buster and bullseye ;-)
07:45<themill>I don't know what you actually did from that answer btw
07:46<ansgar>Guest3967: An armhf version of Python doesn't work on a amd64 system. So for crossbuilding you must ensure that such a package is not required (or emulate armhf with qemu or so)
07:46<Guest3967>how i created the host. :
07:46<Guest3967>### Create sbuild chroot environment. sudo sbuild-createchroot --include=eatmydata,ccache bullseye /srv/chroot/bullseye-amd64-sbuild
07:46<themill>Guest3967: that looks like you made an amd64 chroot? that's not rigt
07:47<themill>(the details matter, hence wanting to know *exactly* what you did)
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07:47<Guest3967>yes, i build in the AMD64 that is crossbuilding.
07:47<themill>I doubt direct crossbuilding works
07:48<Guest3967>ok, moment, i captured all my commands.
07:48<themill>building inside an armhf chroot should work fine though
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07:48<themill>(what ansgar said)
07:48<Guest3967>from the wiki..
07:48<Guest3967>sbuild also supports cross-compiling a package: to build a package which is e.g. only buildable on mips, in the amd64 chroot from the above example, you can use: Toggle line numbers 1 sbuild --host=mips
07:49<themill>Guest3967: that assumes that the crossbuild is possible. It rarely is.
07:49<themill>just because sbuild has the code paths to try the crossbuild doesn't mean that it works
07:50<Guest3967>hmm, really? that sucks.. :-( .. ok, so hmm, then anyone know the way armhf build fastest way.
07:50<themill>making your chroot with «debootstrap --arch=armhf --foreign …» (or equivalent) should work
07:51<ansgar>And in particular I believe python is incompatible with real crossbuilding: a package might need the build system's interpreter, but building a python extension might pull in the host system's interpreter. They are not coinstallable. AFAIU there is no solution for this yet as originally multi-arch wasn't intended for this use.
07:51<enkrypt>some of my installed packages packages ended up with an "ht" status instead of the usual "hi" (they are held)
07:51<enkrypt>the "t" is about triggers pending. what can I do to fix that?
07:51<Guest3967>thanks, ill try that. wiki's on bulding shows so much it a maze.. also tested i386 just now.. ERROR: Mismatch between --build and --host. Please use --cross-compile instead :-(
07:52<Guest3967>so back to the drawing board..
07:52<enkrypt>the usual apt update; apt dist-upgrade; doesn't show anything special. neither does dpkg --configure -a, neither dpkg --triggers-only -a
07:52<Guest3967>what do you guys recommend as building setup?
07:52<Guest3967>sbuild pbuilder cowbuilder git-builder ?
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07:55<themill>Guest3967: sbuild
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07:56<Guest3967>ok, so i stick to sbuild but i need to create the correspending archs then..
07:56<Guest3967>for so far.. THANKS GUYS !! at least now i know more and take other actions..
07:57<themill>yes, it's simple enough to make the foreign chroots. I seem to have 16 of them on this machine...
07:57*themill should probably do some cleaning up
07:58<Guest3967>yeah, creating them is pretty easy, my only problem is, i build debian and ubuntu now, samba and the needed depends (11 packages) times 3 ( amd64 i386 and armhf) these arm builds are killing my build speed, resulting with security updates, im 1 or 2 days later.
07:59<ansgar>Guest3967: Can you get a reasonably-fast arm64 system?
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08:07<Guest3967>ansgar, no, but that is an idea, thanks for that.
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08:08<azeem>uos: do you have a Debian question?
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08:28<ComplexSlayers>xormor: there is no such setting
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08:43<sychill>is there a tool that can convert a Word doc to PDF, other than libreoffice?
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08:46<sussudio>sychill: apt-cache search word pdf
08:46<sychill>“aptitude show antiword” claims it will do the job, but the man page gives no option to that effect
08:47<sychill>sussudio: thanks.. i didn't realize multiple words could be supplied that way. Does it do a logical AND on them?
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08:48<sussudio>it's magic.
08:48<grawity>what's wrong with libreoffice? (other than it being a resource hog)
08:48<sychill>i think pandoc and tea only work with docx
08:49<sychill>grawity: it's got this bug:
08:50<grawity>ok but that's an UI bug, not a file processing bug
08:50<sychill>and for me, the tooltip flicker completely breaks oowriter. It's trapped in an endless loop upon launch, so i can't even get to the configuration to disable it
08:50<grawity>use `unoconv`, then the libreoffice UI isn't invoked at all
08:50<grawity>it just takes the document and spits out a PDF
08:51<sychill>nice. I'll install that
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08:55<sychill>this worked: libreoffice --headless --convert-to pdf $word_doc --outdir $output_dir
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08:59<sychill>unoconv also works. PDF has the same size as libreoffice --headless, but diff says they differ. I suspect unoconv uses libreoffice --headless and perhaps has different metadata
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10:26<tp43_>I just added a 2nd hdd. It worked. I can see my hdd in bash. But in the file browser it does not show up.
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10:29<jkc>Did you partition it, create a filesystem, and mount it?
10:29<tp43_>I can see my hdd in bash.
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10:29<jkc>That isn't what I asked.
10:30<tp43_>jkc, lol, you won't see it in bash otherwise. Leave it for someone else dude.
10:31<jkc>You'll see a device node in /dev for the disk itself even without doing the steps I mentioned. So answer the question.
10:31<jmcnaught>tp43_: saying "I can see my hdd in bash" is not very informative? What do you see? Use a pastebin.
10:32<tp43_>Yes I did partition and add it to /etc/fstab. So when I do $du -h I see it there
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10:32<jkc>Thank you.
10:32<tp43_>oh no, I do not have write permissions.
10:33<tp43_>only root can use it as of yet
10:33<tp43_>I followed these instructions:
10:33<tp43_>Except I used gparted to partion and format it ext4.
10:35<tp43_>ok I am doing chmod a+rw disk2/
10:35<tp43_>Do i have to do -R
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10:36<tp43_>ok I put -R
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10:38<tp43_>it still is not showing up in Naulilus. At least I think he gnome file manager is naulilus
10:39<tp43_>You know what, It is there in the root filesystem as /disk2 so it won't show up as a second drive.
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10:41<tp43_>And the file manager opens from the user's /home/username directory. It doesn't allow you to got to the root path "/" so I guess I should just create a symlinked directory in my home directory
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10:42<jmcnaught>tp43_: / in Nautilus is under "Other locations" bottom of the left side bar, then "Computer"
10:42<tp43_>Do you guys sanction or support or what have you that website; I mean is it official, or just some rando?
10:43<tp43_>jmcnaught, no, there is Computer, and then clicking goes to the root path and then it is there "disk2"
10:43<imMute>tp43_: it's definitely not offical (would be hosted on or a subdomain if it was), but it might be put together by Debian Developers (though I cant find any info supporting that)
10:44<tp43_>Google is returning that site at the top.
10:45<tp43_>For search: "debian buster add hdd"
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10:47<tp43_>jkc, you right, my bad
10:48<imMute>all that means is that has better SEO than
10:50<tp43_>imMute, true
10:53<freem>Hi. I'm trying to rebuild vym's package withouth the dbus support (which prevents me to start it because dbus is not installed on my system. Just installing it to test this program does not helps neither). The option exists upstream since 2013 (git blame: «c5c4e334 (Uwe Drechsel 2013-03-15») but the rules file does not mentions anything about cmake nor dbus. Any idea how to do that?
10:55<freem>I cloned upstream repository locally to see how I could build it, but for some reason cmake refuses me to do it, so I took debian's source package, which builds without problems, but obviously I need to find how to tweak it to enable that option (no-dbus)
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10:55<tp43_>sym link does not work so great. So I created in my home a sym link to "/disk2" as so. $cd ~; $ln -s /disk2 disk2_sln. But then when I cd into disk2_sln, I am in /disk2, so if I got and try $cp ../Documents/..
10:56<tp43_>Not found
10:56<imMute>tp43_: after 'cd disk2_sln' what does 'pwd' output?
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10:57<imMute>tp43_: actually, nvm. I replicated that behavior, which surprised me as well
10:57<tp43_>imMute, /home/myusername/disk2_sln
10:57<imMute>tp43_: I thought for sure that .. would go back to your home dir, but I guess not :(
10:59<tp43_>imMute, yes it does. I have a dir in Documents/someDir and tab complete works. So I did cp -r ../Document/someDir . but it return error cannot stat, no such file or dir
10:59<imMute>tp43_: but I'd be very surprised if nautilus doesn't let you browse /, so the symlink should be unnecessary.
10:59<imMute>though if you want to use that 2nd disk entirely for your files, you could mount it under your home dir instead of /disk2
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11:00<imMute>freem: I don't know qmake at all, but it looks like that file is where most of the build scripting happens.
11:01<tp43_>imMute, It does in other places. Would have been nice if I could have had it there in my ~/home/myusername/ directory somehow, but no big deal. I can just $cd /disk2 and click +other Locations in Nautilus.
11:01<freem>the upstream project seems to use cmake, not qmake?
11:01<freem>but good point
11:02<tp43_>imMute, that would be good. Just an exercise. But I am gonna skip it for now. Thanks for you help my good man. And everyone else who replied too.
11:02<imMute>freem: I cant find the upstream project, but what's in the debian source package is definitely not cmake
11:03<freem>yep, there are signs of the option here too... but that does not tell me how to make debuild -us -uc to use change it's value
11:03<freem>imMute: there are both in debian's source package
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11:03<freem>I think cmake calls qmake
11:03<tp43_>imMute, First I would have to unmount /home, and then mount it is tmp02 or something. And then mount the /disk02 at my /home. And finally copy all from tmp02.
11:03<freem>as for upstream: git://
11:04<imMute>freem: ah, yeah, there are cmake files in the debian package as well. It doesn't look like the debian build uses them however, and goes straight to qmake
11:04<imMute>tp43_: no you wouldn't
11:04<imMute>tp43_: make a directory in your homedir, /home/tp43/disk2 and then mount the disk to that.
11:04<freem>hm... I see, I guess
11:05<tp43_>imMute, oh yes I see, thx
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11:07<tp43_>I do not see my disk2 in /etc/fstab but I did add it and then reboot which worked. But just now when I looked at fstab it is not there. So how is it working then.
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11:08<imMute>tp43_: under systemd /etc/fstab is "legacy" and gets converted to systemd .mount units at startup. so maybe there's a .mount unit for it.
11:09<tp43_>imMute, we used to be systemV and now we are systemD?
11:10<imMute>tp43_: yes, debian adopted systemd as the default init system back in Jessie.
11:11<tp43_>imMute, I see. Yeah I knew there was a change but I always get confused if it were systemD-> systemV or reverse. Ok I will remember for good now. Thanks for reminder.
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11:12<freem>finding a valid reason to move from systemd toward sysvinit+rc.d is likely rather hard
11:12<freem>(some distro stopped using systemd, but I've never heard about any doing that to go back at sysvinit+rc.d)
11:13<ansgar>freem: Devuan exists to go back from systemd to sysvinit + rc.d.
11:14<freem>well, it exists to avoid moving to systemd :)
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11:15<freem>and last thing I've read about it is that they don't really want to keep sysvinit neither... they were about to use gentoo's init? (don't remember the name)
11:15*freem have not checked devuan status since more than a year
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11:20*imMute doesn't really care about devuan, much like I don't really care about Fedora.
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11:28<freem>imMute: got the beast working by hacking a part of the .pro file out, thanks for the tip
11:28<imMute>freem: neat!
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11:31<freem>yep, just got to learn to use it now :)
11:32<freem>have to say, it feels uncommon to me to have softwares with documentation included. That's a very good point for it.
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13:02<p9>I'm trying to do a backport through pbuilder. What if source package requires higher version of debhelper than present it distribution I'm building for (in)?
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13:13<somiaj>p9: install debhelper from backports
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13:13<somiaj>oh with pbuilder, unsure how to tell pbuilder to use backports, maybe #packaging can help with that
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13:15<somiaj>p9: has some info about enabling and using certian packages from backports during the build.
13:15<somiaj>its example even includes debhelper, since it is common to need it due to compact levels in building backports
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13:25<imMute>p9: you might have success just chaning the debhelper version requirement to be what's available. it's definitely not a great solution, but I've used it a couple times
13:27<somiaj>It is a gamble, and I wouldn't relay on that, as different compat levels will do different things, which can break package builds.
13:27<somiaj>but yes, it can work, though installing debhelper from backports is the prefered method.
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13:40<p9>somiaj: imMute: thanks. I will try to follow the docs
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14:03<SecOPs>unbelievable I just tried to install GalliumOS (based on ubuntu) on a chromebook and its fancy pants installer crashed. That is the problem with complex pretty shiny you can't fix it as easily so the basic debian bullseye installer is installing fine
14:04<SecOPs>it was debian or arch so I just grabbed debian
14:05<somiaj>installing something for ubuntu on chromeos is just not gonna work, build from source.
14:05<sussudio>crashed how. with a message, or a lockup
14:05<somiaj>oh wait, this was an os...(:
14:05<somiaj>anways, glad you have found yoru way to debian, we are here to support you.
14:06<SecOPs>crashed but the message was opague because it was installing via python scripts it seems
14:06<SecOPs>somiaj: help ? Nah, I have been using Debian on and off since Debian Slink
14:07<sussudio>that seems sloppy.
14:07<SecOPs>solitarIn Debain Slink I had to compile a kernel just to get my soundcard working things are much easier nowadays
14:07<sussudio>could also have been bad media, i guess.
14:08<SecOPs>sussudio: possibly but I'm using the same media so the physical media is not bad maybe the iso was corrupted
14:09<SecOPs>I doubt it though maybe some ubuntu upstream update crashed it
14:09<lifesgood>I in love with the idea of in the near future debian running on top of GNU Hurd.
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14:09<sussudio>that's a weird fetish.
14:10<freem>is hurd even able to run x64 binaries now?
14:10<ansgar>freem: No.
14:11<sney>the i386 port is documented and seems to have tarballs from as recent as 2019,
14:11<lifesgood>the key point is microkenel is a logical change from monotuthic one.
14:11<mason>FWIW, Debian GNU/kbsd is also alive.
14:12<freem>mason: really? I thought it was defunct?
14:12<somiaj>maybe one day hurd will actually become viable, though outside of concept I haven't seen much on it.
14:12<mason>freem: It's driven by volunteers. They have a channel.
14:13<mason>freem: #debian-kbsd on OFTC
14:13<ansgar>freem: It's still practically dead.
14:13<mason>ansgar: Go in and ask them how dead it is.
14:13<SecOPs>people have been talking about "one day GNU HURD" since the 90s
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14:14<mason>SecOPs: GUIX also has HURD as a kernel target, FWIW.
14:14<lifesgood>volunteers...volunters... that bring me back to defend well motivated paid and mometimes small staff.
14:14<freem>I have more hopes to see a debian/kFreeBSD than an kHurd honestly
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14:14<freem>not that I don't like the idea of µkernels, but I prefer working softwares
14:16<ansgar>freem: Debian Hurd seems to have significantly more software available than Debian kFreeBSD :)
14:16<freem>nice, but if it can't support my hardware, it's still useless
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14:17<lifesgood>I worked in some time on navy frigates OS and wepon control soft, it was feed by QNX a microkernel |OS.... curious choice eint?
14:17<freem>I'm not that surprised
14:18<freem>I think µkernels can be more resilient, and also likely easier to maintain
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14:18<freem>but then, Hurd is still limited to x86 arch, and I doubt it would work well with the various peripherals
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14:19<lifesgood>microkernel when debugged is much more resilient to user space bugs
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14:19<mason>Anyway, it's worth checking the stuff out by talking to the folks working on it, rather than being put off by motivated detractors. Even more worth volunteering your time if it's something that interests you.
14:19<freem>I can only guess that in military stuff, people know the exact specs of the hardware and/or can limit it, so that may be a viable situation
14:19<freem>desktops, though, it's likely "more complicated"
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14:20<ansgar>mason: I could also ask on Freenode if they think Freenode is alive and well.
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14:21<mason>ansgar: I feel like you might be happier there. Go for it.
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14:27<ansgar>mason: Nah, too much conspiracy theories, anti-vaccination propaganda and systemd hate.
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14:28<mason>ansgar: Yeah, but zealots are zealots. I'd think the political differences would disappear against the general vibe.
14:29<mason>Anyway, people work on Debian GNU/HURD and GNU/kbsd and it's insulting to say they're dead projects, as they're not.
14:29<bremner>can we move the offtopic chatter to #debian-offtopic?
14:29<lifesgood>when I worked on frigates |I was much more interested to be allocated to submarines team. submarines for me is the ultimate tactical weapon of today.
14:29<mason>bremner: I'm certainly done with it. Don't need the negativity.
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14:31<lifesgood>I envy USA submarines, nuclear ones. are amazing tactical weapon. just in case a nuclear global offencive occurs they woulp play a key role in war.
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14:32<amacater>People: have a look at the channel topic, maybe?
14:37<lifesgood>please le me tell where freenode is allocated now?
14:37<lifesgood>*let mo know
14:38<dreamer>I think you can find that out yourself
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14:39<dreamer>rasengang claims it's now korean territory. like that has any legal merit :#
14:39<somiaj>freenode still exists and you can go join that network and ask them.
14:39<lilideb>Hello people. Is there anything like "test disk" for debian? It seems to only be for ubuntu. Its to recover data from corrupted disks
14:39<somiaj>though is where many have moved.
14:39<mason>lilideb: Do you mean rescue media?
14:40<mason>lilideb: I like the standard live image for the purpose, if so.
14:40<somiaj>,v testdisk
14:40<judd>Package: testdisk on amd64 -- stretch: 7.0-3; buster: 7.0-3+b4; bullseye: 7.1-5+b1; sid: 7.1-5+b1
14:40<lilideb>yes to rescue data from a harddrive that is not recognized either by windows or linux
14:40<somiaj>testdisk is in debian.
14:40<lilideb>what?? i only find info about it for ubuntu crazy
14:40<somiaj>there are lots of tools, though the first thing you need to do is remove the disk from any system, make an image of it, and then try to recover from the image.
14:40<mason>Oh, interesting. Never seen that before. TIL.
14:40<dpkg>Please search for things rather than just asking, e.g. «apt-cache search regex», or with <aptitude search>. The following ways can locate packages that own a file (installed, or candidate for install): «dpkg -S /bin/foo», <apt-file>, <pdo> (online) and «/msg judd help file» (bot). <search dpkg> for factoids. See and ask me about <bot help>. See also <axi-search> <debtags> <dlocate>.
14:40<lilideb>i have the disk plugged into my pc right now, do i need a image ?
14:41<somiaj>lilideb: I just ran 'apt search testdisk' and it showed right up
14:41<somiaj>lilideb: that is standard practive, try to keep anything from ahppening to the disk and work ont he image, that way if you fail witht he image, you can create a new one and try again.
14:41<mason>lilideb: The idea is that you don't want to risk damaging an already marginal disk, so yes, you take an image of it and work with that to preserve the original.
14:41<lilideb>i see. will the file format be like an ISO or such?
14:42<mason>It'll be the raw data from the disk.
14:42<mason>in a file
14:42<somiaj>lilideb: usually the call it .img for image, but it just raw data, use something like dd to make a direct byte for bypte copy of the disk, then do all recovery on the image.
14:43<lilideb>okay, i will start with getting dd
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14:43<lilideb>is the program only called dd?
14:44<lilideb>i get many hits
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14:44<freem>yes, `dd` is an actual program
14:44<freem>you might have more luck adding some terms like "unix", "linux", etc
14:45<lilideb>im searching by apt search dd
14:45<Sqrt{not}>lilideb, dd is certainly already installed on any debian
14:45<mason>lilideb: There's also ddrescue that can be useful if your disk is more problematic than ideal:
14:46<Sqrt{not}>,file bin/dd
14:46<judd>Search for bin/dd in buster/amd64: coreutils: bin/dd; klibc-utils: usr/lib/klibc/bin/dd; 9base: usr/lib/plan9/bin/dd
14:46<Sqrt{not}>lilideb, dd is in the package coreutils
14:46<somiaj>lilideb: most likely dd is already on your system.
14:46<lilideb>i cant find dd on my system
14:46<lilideb>i run debian 10
14:47<somiaj>lilideb: what does 'which dd' output?
14:47<lilideb>usr bin dd
14:47<somiaj>lilideb: you have dd on your system
14:48<lilideb>thanks man. i searched for it by the settings
14:48<lilideb>could find it like that
14:48<somiaj>it isn't a package name, it is a binary
14:48<somiaj>it is a core tool, whcihi comes with many other core tools
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14:49<lilideb>how can i run it?
14:50<Sqrt{not}>start with: man dd
14:50<jhutchins>What's the "k" for on klibc?
14:50<lilideb>sqrt{not} tnx
14:50<bremner>I'd have guessed kernel?
14:51<lifesgood>lilideb, sudo dd if=/path/to/ubuntu.iso of=/dev/sdb
14:51<jhutchins>lilideb: dd is a powerful tool, you want to understand a little about how it works.
14:51<jhutchins>lilideb: lifesgood's suggestion will destroy any data on /dev/sdb
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14:52<lilideb>jhutchins> thanks, i wont do the command. I want to poke around a little first and look at this
14:52<lifesgood>I was supposing a situotion of making a boot media
14:52<bremner>these days cp works fine for that, with the same danges
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14:53<bremner>dunno if there is any advantage to using dd for making boot media; it just seems like more typing
14:53<mason>dd can provide some more in-flight feedback than cp
14:53<mason>status=progress and so forth
14:53<lilideb>status and progress would be nice since its a 200gb disk
14:53<lilideb>so i know if its stuck
14:53<somiaj>jhutchins: yea looks like kernel, "kernel headers used during the build of klibc"
14:54<amacater>dd if=netinst.iso of=/dev/sdX obs=2M oflag=sync conv=notrunc status=progress or some such
14:54<mason>lilideb: FWIW, you can also send a USR1 to dd to get it to spit out a progress report on demand. Note that it might not be able to do so if it's currently waiting for the kernel to return, and that can lead to significant delays getting the report in some cases
14:55<somiaj>dd can provide more inline control on block size and so forth when copying, and is useful in more advanced settings you need that control. cp has better defaults and works for many things.
14:55<lilideb>Under the header "Other packages related to testdisk" i need to install them all right? They mean that testdisk is dependent on these others programs?
14:56<somiaj>lilideb: use apt to install testdisk, it will install all required depends.
14:56<somiaj>lilideb: also if you are running debian 10, do not install sid packages.
14:56<amacater>apt install testdisk should do it
14:56<jhutchins>Yeah, "kernel" makes sense. Couldn't figure a way it could be a special KDE package.
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14:56<grawity>lilideb: if you mean the ones marked "dep:" -- yes but apt will do it automatically
14:56<lilideb>somiaj> what is sid packages and how do i differentiate them from the others?
14:56<lilideb>grawity> yes thats what i ment
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14:57<jhutchins>lilideb: related != dependent. The debian package system will install other packages if they are required for the requested package to run.
14:57<lilideb>thanks its good info to know, i actually didnt know it worked like that with apt
14:58<jhutchins>lilideb: sid is the repository for package updates proposed for testing. It is meant to be broken. "Sid" is the neighbor boy who breaks all the toys in Toy Story.
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14:58<lilideb>yeah i remember that part of toy story haha
14:59<lilideb>whats the difference between apt install NAME // apt get install NAME ?
14:59<jhutchins>lilideb: Using a standard sources.list will only pull packages from the configured release, which should be debian stable (currently buster, soon to be bullseye).
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14:59<somiaj>lilideb: just use apt to install stuff, don't download from and you'll be fine
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14:59<somiaj>apt and apt-get are mostly idenentical from an end user standpoint, apt just has nicer output and is meant for typing into a shell
14:59<somiaj>apt-get is now more meant for scripts and is a bit more advanced
15:00<somiaj>(and unchanging)
15:00<somiaj>but in the end they dot he same thing, just have differnt use cases
15:00<lilideb>i see, it all makes sense now how ive broken some other installs hahah
15:00<jhutchins>lilideb: the latter will probably show a syntax error. apt-get is one of the older dependency resolution tools, aptitude and apt are newer re-writes of the same process, with somewhat different features.
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15:02<lilideb>Thanks everyone for the help. I will continue this project tomorrow. Have a good night everybody!
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15:23<_sos>Hi, I was wondering if I could get some assistance with my Debian installation. I'm primaily a Wnidows user, but recently got a new SSD for my Desktop and installed Debian on it. I followed a youtube video and downloaded the iso+nonfree version. I went through the installation, but after it reset only Windows boots. I go to boot options and my other SSD isn't even listed. From googling I think it may have to do with UEIF and Bios. I checked it out, turned off
15:23<_sos>legacy then nothing booted not even windows. I turned it back to Legacy + UEIF and windows came back. When I did the installation I set Grub to load on the new SSD instead of the one with Windows on it, just to keep them separate and not corrupt the windows disk. Any suggestions?
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15:25<somiaj>_sos: do you recall if you botted the installer in legacy or uefi mode
15:26<_sos>I'm not sure with the installer. I believe an option came to "Force UEFI" but I selected no since force sounded like a strong word and I saw mixed answes online
15:26<_sos>So maybe I need to re-do the whole process and force UEFI on the windows disc?
15:26<somiaj>the debian iso is hybrid, and supports both legacy or uefi, both work, but it is best to konw which one you choose (And it all depends on how you boot the isntaller image)
15:27<dpkg>To reinstall <GRUB> boot to your Debian install disk/live CD, switch to the other console (Alt-F2), mount your root filesystem (mount -t ext4 /dev/whatever /target ; mount --bind /dev /target/dev ; mount -t proc none /target/proc ; mount -t sysfs none /target/sys), chroot into it (chroot /target), run "mount /boot/efi" on EFI and "update-grub && grub-install /dev/whatever". See also <rescue mode>, <dual boot guide>, <supergrub>.
15:27<somiaj>You can try to fix the mbr and recover your current install, the method you use depends on what you prefer.
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15:28<somiaj>also with the release of bullseye in 2 days, y ou might just want to get a jump start and install bullseye from the start vs buster (just something to consider)
15:28<_sos>debian-live-10.10.0-amd64-kde.iso is the one I downloaded, and it said DVD/USB. I used a program to make it bootable from USB
15:28<amacater>If Windows was installed in MBR/Legacy BIOS mode, you have to install Debian the same way, I think. I've been know to use Windows to create Windows boot media via Microsoft media tool then just reinstall Windows as UEFI :)
15:29<amacater>__sos: Which program?
15:29<somiaj>_sos: what program did you use? Anyways, yes the images are also usable on usb or dvd/cd, but it works in all ways.
15:29<_sos>im not sure I'll boot into my desktop right now. just one I saw on google
15:29<somiaj>_sos: well my suggestion is to just start over and install bullseye
15:29<somiaj>also don't use the live image,
15:30<somiaj>!firmare images
15:30<_sos>Is bullseye as simple to install?
15:30<somiaj>!firmware images
15:30<dpkg>There are <live> system and <netinst> and DVD images containing non-free Debian <firmware> packages available from The images are "unofficial" because "official Debian" includes only 100% free software. They are otherwise identical to the normal installer images and prepared by the same Debian Developers. See <check iso>.
15:30<somiaj>_sos: yes, it is just the newst version which will be released in 2 days
15:30<_sos>I'm not a complete idiot, but I also haven't used any linux distros since college (many years ago)
15:30<_sos>ok thanks I'll see if I can find it. the non-free firmware too?
15:30<amacater>yes ... you might want to wait until after Saturday/Sunday this week once it's _actually_ released rather than using the release candidate version
15:31<somiaj>_sos: -- download that .iso
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15:31<dpkg>win32diskimager is much more reliable than <rufus> or <etcher> for copying ISO images to USB sticks and you can download it from . Adjust the file mask from *.img to *.* if it doesn't show Debian .iso images. See <usb install> and <install debian> for further details.
15:31<_sos>okay good to know. In the meantime should I figure out what's going on with my MBR on Windows, find out if it's legacy or UEFi
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15:31<somiaj>^^ use that software to copy the .iso to your usb, and them make sure you boot in uefi mode
15:32<_sos>I used Etcher
15:32<amacater> for RC3 if you want to do it today
15:33<dpkg>Etcher is not a reliable way to copy Debian images for installation. Instead, use cp or dd for linux or win32diskimager for Windows.
15:33<somiaj>_sos: etcher can be hit or miss, though I doubt it was the cause of your problems
15:33<sney>I think those other tools don't mangle the live images as badly. still, 0 mangling is still better
15:34<_sos>Okay thanks
15:34<_sos>If I download that iso @somiaj will it be easy to upgrade it to the offical new release in a few days?
15:34<amacater>If you can boot into Debian by using a rescue image, you can use that to write the next USB stick using dd
15:35<jhutchins>_sos: Yes.
15:35<amacater>-sos: Yes, absolutely - it should need almost no changes
15:35<somiaj>_sos: yes, you will probably only have to upgrade a handfull of packages, bullseye is almost ready to go
15:36<sney>it will be completely painless, esp as compared to modern windows feature upgrades ;)
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15:37<_sos>Do I need to clean format my USB (erase it first) before using disk imager
15:37<sney>it will overwrite the contents
15:38<lifesgood>does debian has a mail client that makes easy integrate gnupg
15:38<jhutchins>_sos: You do need to copy anything you want to keep.
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15:39<lifesgood>I already generated the public and private key
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15:40<amacater>lifesgood - mail clients is one of those things that cvauses huge wars. If you can use command line/a terminal, mutt or neomutt has good GPG integration but it's really a matter of choice
15:41<_sos>uh oh, now windows isn't showing my USB drive. It makes the noise indicating it does when I plug it in
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15:42<somiaj>windows won't show a drive it doesn't recongize the filesystem on
15:42<_sos>how do I select it in win32 disk imager then
15:43<_sos>oh I see in partition manager
15:43<somiaj>hmm, that should show the devices, I thoguht you were talking about giving it a device/seeing it in the file manager
15:43<_sos>It's 3 MB FAT, EFI system)
15:44<_sos>actually yeah windows hates it. Ican see it in the partition manager, but can't do anything with it
15:44<amacater>If all else fails: use gparted (either from a Linux machine or the bootable .iso) to put a partition table on the USB stick - which automatically wipes the drive
15:44<somiaj>yea, the actual partition table is very strange
15:44<_sos>Only thing I can do is eject, anything else it says "The system cannot find the file specified"
15:45<amacater>If you dd the .iso onto a stick, it does something that makes two partitions that Windows finds odd.
15:45<_sos>so just boot into live demo version of deb?
15:45-!-mode/#debian [-b *!*@2001:470:1af1:101::91e9] by debchange
15:46<_sos>loading up the live demo now
15:49<_sos>what should I format my USB to?
15:49<_sos>I'm in gparted
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15:50<somiaj>you shouldn't need to format it, a direct copy of the iamge puts the partition table on it
15:50<sney>you don't need to format it, just wipe the partition table. or dd the iso directly to the device, which will create its own partition table and filesystem
15:51<_sos>okay, I put it into NTFS because it was the only one I recognized. Im sure windows will see it now though and let me use the win32 disck program
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15:52<_sos>perfect, it's writing it now :) thanks for the help. Next I just need to reinstall and figure out how to get grub working
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15:53<sney>just make sure the installer boots in efi mode (if legacy is fully disabled, that works) and it should set up grub automatically
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15:53<sney>windows does not really support dual boot and sometimes it will overwrite the bootloader by itself, but you should at least get it working for now
15:53<_sos>I think the problem maybe was where I installed grub. I installed it on the same drive as debian because I didn't want to put it on the Windows disk. But I'm not sure if that is what made it not detect it
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15:54<_sos>I read that having two separate SSD should make the process smooth
15:54<sney>yes, separate disks definitely improves things.
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15:54<_sos>Looking at dis management in Windows, my C:\ (Windows) is NTFS
15:55<_sos>going to hop into bios now and see what the settings are
15:56<_sos>Boot mode select [LEGACY+UEFI]. Earlier when I swithced to UEFI only, even windows stopped loading
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15:57<_sos>Is that settings ok to continue on to Debian installation?
15:57<sney>in windows disk management, did your windows volume have just 1 big partition, or were there a couple of smaller ones at the beginning of the disk?
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15:59<_sos>[System Reserved 50MB NTFS] [ C: 465 GB NTFS] [508MB Healthy (Recovery partition)]
15:59<_sos>Those are the three partitions on the windows Disk
16:00<sney>ok, that's legacy. an efi windows volume would have a ~100MB EFI System Partition at the beginning of the disk.
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16:00<_sos>Is that a bad thing? What do I need to do now to make it work?
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16:00<sney>in that case I would recommend disconnecting the windows disk during your debian install, then reconnect it afterwards, and run update-grub from debian.
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16:01<sney>you'll get grub as the primary bootloader for the pc, and windows will be one of the options in the grub menu.
16:01<_sos>great idea, thanks
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16:01<sney>this is how we used to do it in the pre-efi days. I've had many systems dual booting successfully following that model, until I started having multiple computers in the house
16:02<_sos>(Random note: It says SATA2 for Windows drive) Does that mean I just installed it on the second sata port instead of 1st on motherboard?
16:02<sney>that varies by hardware vendor, IDFMA
16:02<sney>probably doesn't matter though.
16:02<dpkg>Insufficient Data For Meaningful Answer
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16:06<_sos>Unplugged and installing :)
16:06<_sos>In the video I watched, it said not to setup a root password because it would give me admin privileges by default. Does that sound correct?
16:07<sney>that's one option. the installer actually explains this in the root password dialog
16:07<sney>if you're expecting to use sudo with your primary user account, then leaving the root password blank will have this already set up and working.
16:08<_sos>The way I had it in the past was when I used SUDO I had to enter my password
16:08<sney>yes, that's how this works as well.
16:08<_sos>I don't remember if it just opened an elevated privileged terminal or what not
16:08<dpkg>Sudo, aka Substitute User DO, is a common way to give limited super user privileges to specific users. Not the magic "do what I want" button. Good in scripts with "username ALL = NOPASSWD: /some/program". See <sudo path>, <visudo>, <sudoers>.
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16:08<_sos>that's what I want to do
16:09<sney>it executes the command with root's privileges, it doesn't have to open a separate session or anything.
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16:09<_sos>Does creating a root password achieve that?
16:09<sney>no, if that's what you want then you should leave the root password blank.
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16:10<_sos>okay thanks
16:10<amacater>If you _don't_ set a root password at install, the first user is set up to use sudo
16:10<_sos>the root password would be like creating an admin account then?
16:10<amacater>Yes, absolutely
16:10<sney>more like enabling an admin account, but yes
16:11<imMute>_sos: root *is* the admin account.
16:11<amacater>Unless you really need to, the general advice is not to use root as a general account but to run as a non-privileged user.
16:12<amacater>Use sudo/root when you need privileges e.g. to install packages
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16:12<_sos>gotcha. Okay so "This machine's firmware has started the installer in UEFI mode but it looks like there may be existing operating systems already installed using "BIOS Compatibility mode". If you continue to install Debian in UEFI mode, it might be difficult to reboot the machine into any BIOS-mode operating systems later." -- "If you wish to install in UEFI mode and don't care about keeping the ability to boot one of the existing systems, you have the option
16:12<_sos>to force that here. If you wish to keep the option to boot an existing operating system, you should choose NOT to foce UEFI Installation here? " --- "Force UEFI Installation? No [ ] Yes [ ]"
16:13<_sos>So I believe I selected NO last time
16:13<sney>ok, since windows is installed in legacy mode, you should not have booted the installer in efi mode
16:13<sney>reboot, turn off efi or otherwise make *sure* to boot the installer in legacy mode, and try again
16:13<amacater>Quick easy way to check: go into the setup screen on that machine and set it to UEFI only, reboot and see what happens.
16:14<sney>we don't need to check because this has already been determined.
16:14<_sos>Okay, so I unplugged my windows hard drive before doing this. I don't remember selecting efi mode anywhere
16:15<sney>on systems with efi, efi is usually the default, and you will have to specify legacy or bios or csm, whichever it's called on this system
16:15<sney>disabling efi altogether is also a viable option, since you're not using it anyway.
16:16<_sos>my options in bios are "UEFI" or "LEGACY+UEFI"
16:16<sney>hmm. lovely. ok, reboot, get to the boot menu, and there should be 2 options for the debian usb stick. what are they
16:18<_sos>Options are: UEFI: Built-in EFI Shell and then again UEFI: Built-in EFI SHell, then below it UEFI: USB Stick 2.0 PMAP -> Sub level USB Disk 2.0 PMAP
16:18<_sos>I wonder if the sub level USB disk 2.0 pmap is non EFI.. its shown underneath the EFI version
16:19<_sos>only one way to find out
16:19<sney>yeah, try that one.
16:19<sney>if it's efi, it will say UEFI on the next screen where you select the install type
16:19<lifesgood>have you noticed that modern laptops lack the network cable input. wifi is not yet a safer option to substitute cable.
16:20<sney>lifesgood: that's more appropriate for #debian-offtopic
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16:21<_sos>"Guided - use entire disk and set up encrypted LVM" option best? Looks like it skipped the UEFI screen!
16:21<sney>_sos: ... it was at the first screen, the one with the choices of e.g. "install" and "graphical install"
16:21<_sos>I selected graphical install
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16:22<sney>and you didn't look to see if it said UEFI anywhere near that menu, which it would, if it is booted in uefi mode.
16:22<amacater>lifesgood - that's one reason why people use the non-free firmware image - if the firmware loads, you can install via wifi
16:24<_sos>Yes I didn't look to see that. My first several installs I didn't even really know what UEFI was to even look for it, then my latter ones it must not have stood out to me.
16:24<amacater>_sos: On the machine next to me, when you go into setup for the boot device / press F12, then I see one USB device as USB 1100 and one as UEFI - USB
16:24<amacater>It's the same USB stick with a choice of boot methods
16:24<amacater>[On some machines, it's press DEL get into setup or some other key combo]
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16:25<_sos>Well for now I think I'm installing it correctly :) will see if grub loads after it's done
16:26<lifesgood>I came around once with only terminal and was annoying deal with wpasupplicant ifup ifdown and all manual configs
16:26<sney>you can also get usb ethernet dongles. I think those laptops without ethernet ports onboard should include them, like phones include chargers, but I don't get to make these decisions
16:26<amacater>lifesgood: We can't solve everything - I do find an expert install helps.
16:27<amacater>USB ethernet dongles quite often "just work" - I did buy a slightly more expensive one to be sure.
16:27<_sos>It's asking me to select my desktop environment. I selected KDE but it's allowing multiple options, should I grab the default Debian Desktop Environment too? I'm not sure if the others are built ontop of it or if I can just pick KDE
16:28<sney>_sos: last I checked, kde was a sub menu item under debian desktop environment
16:28<amacater>Default Debian environment is GNOME - deselect that and select KDE
16:28<_sos>Gnome is also an option on the list
16:28<sney>debian desktop environment is the category. kde and gnome (and xfce, etc) are options below it.
16:29<sney>so yes, keep the top level selected, and also select kde.
16:29<_sos>I guess it says predefined collections of software not desktop environment: And the list is Debian desktop, GNOME, xfce, gnome flashback, KDE Plasma, cinnamon, mate, lxde, lxqt, web server, SSH, standard systems utility
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16:29<_sos>So I have selected Debian deskop environment, KDE Plasma, and standard system utilities
16:29<sney>good to go
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16:32<_sos>thanks, much appreciated
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16:35<amacater>sney: Debian desktop environment is a selection of the default Debian desktop == GNOME. If you don't want GNOME, you deselect that one and positively select one of the others ... just tested using tasksel
16:35<sney>amacater: that is pretty clearly subcategories
16:36<sney>they correspond to task-desktop and task-foo-desktop, as I'm sure you know
16:36<amacater>But if you select it, it tries to install 1189 packages from something :)
16:36<sney>right, because task-desktop has this: Recommends: task-gnome-desktop | task-xfce-desktop | task-kde-desktop ...
16:37<sney>but Debian Desktop Environment is strictly a separate thing from selecting Gnome
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16:37<sney>and if you tell users that selecting the Debian Desktop Environment + KDE will get them gnome, that is bad advice
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16:38<_sos>ugh, finished installing and still no grub :( now it just takes me to EFI Shell as only boot options
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16:39<sney>_sos: I suppose that was booted in efi mode after all.
16:39<amacater>So: if you select DDE - the metapackage selector isntalls task-gnome-desktop (so a subset of GNOME. If you _only_ select KDE, you get task-kde-desktop
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16:39<amacater>If you select both, you get gnome libraries _and_ KDE
16:39<amacater>is how I read it
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16:39<sney>you are not looking at the control fields for these packages.
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16:40<_sos>Do I just reformat windows into not legacy? Where do I go from here?
16:40<sychill>“apt-file search latex*el” <= that is failing to find files that start with “latex” and end in “.el”. How might I approach this?
16:40<sney>if you select DDE and KDE, you get: Depends: tasksel (= 3.68), xorg, xserver-xorg-video-all, xserver-xorg-input-all, desktop-base and you also get task-kde-desktop and its dependencies.
16:41<sney>_sos: go into your bios with the usb drive connected, and see if you can set that device to boot in legacy mode.
16:41<sney>there's usually a menu in most bioses that let you set certain options for the connected disks.
16:42<sney>_sos: if not, reinstalling windows in efi mode, and then installing debian in efi mode as well, may be your only option.
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16:43<sney>unfortunately it's impossible to dual boot between bios and efi on one system.
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16:44<amacater>If you've no data on the Windows drive that you need to keep: go to Microsoft, get the media creator, select create a USB medium for this computer and follow the prompts. Then reinstall Windows from the beginning.
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16:45<amacater>It's painful but do-able if that's the only software on there. Then boot in UEFI only mode install Windows
16:46<lifesgood>recently dualboot is a bad choice in a regular laptop. we see a standard of 256GB of SSD and windows eats almost all of it. dualboot is for large storage maccines.
16:46<sney>if you end up going this route, also make sure to disable any of windows's fast boot features, because they are known to break device support in both OSes.
16:46<_sos>I don't even have the windows hard drive plugged in. I wonder why it can't detect the debian SSD. Is it just my bios being awful?
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16:46<sney>dualboot is, arguably, a bad idea and only should be done if you don't have any other options.
16:47<lifesgood>I agree
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16:47<amacater>IN this instance, _sos has two drives, so it's not too bad.
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16:48<sney>there are some EFIs that won't recognize grubx64.efi at all, and you have to copy it to BOOTX64.efi instead
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16:48<ansgar>sney: Dual-booting EFI and Legacy systems works just fine as far as I remember?
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16:48<sney>I've only personally seen it with some ovmf versions but it's probably in the wild on hardware as well
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16:49<sney>ansgar: no, the bootloaders straight up can't see each other. I guess "impossible" might have been a stretch, you could maybe chainload something, but it wouldn't be out of the box
16:49<ansgar>sney: Just press the button to get the "Select boot device" dialog from the firmware.
16:49<lifesgood>mac book pro can hold 8TB
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16:50<sney>ansgar: .... that doesn't really qualify. a dual boot system is one where you have a boot menu that lets you select between the 2+n OSes installed on it. if you're in the firmware every time you turn on the system, it's a hack.
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16:51<ansgar>sney: It's a boot menu? Who cares if it is built-in or an extra program.
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16:51<sney>ok, you can have that half of the hair.
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16:52<ansgar>It did miss the "show boot menu every time automatically" button, but it worked fine until Windows got an option to switch existing installations to EFI.
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16:55<_sos>Trying to google around and read this "If you have UEFI firmware it is best to install both Linux and Windows to a GPT disk (disk can be formated/styled to GPT using Linux tools or Windows tools) and boot both systems the UEFI way. " What does that mean exactly? To a GPT disk?
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16:57<sney>_sos: it's a partition table type, and the default when doing a new install in efi mode.
16:58-!-mode/#debian [+l 970] by debhelper
16:59<_sos>how do I see my MBR?
16:59<_sos>Does that just mean my windows disk?
16:59<_sos>it says I can convert windows to GPT disk by command line
17:00<_sos>are links allowed here?
17:00<sney>there's probably a windows tool for that, it's out of scope for #debian though
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17:01<sney>if you wipe your existing disk(s) (after backups of course), and run a windows or debian install on those empty unpartitioned disks, GPT partition tables will be created and used automatically.
17:01<_sos>And it's best to install windows first or does it mater?
17:02<sney>yes, install windows first, because if you install windows second it will overwrite grub
17:02<_sos>Okay, so is GPD = EFI? Or is EFI a subset of the GPT layout
17:03<sney>they are 2 separate technologies that work well together, and first showed up around the same time.
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17:06<_sos>So my mistake was installing windows as MBR instead of GPT in the first place. Wonder how I managed that
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17:07<sney>your bios sounds kind of buggy tbh, it probably just did something weird
17:07<sney>I would set it to that uefi only mode to make sure it doesn't have a choice :)
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17:13<_sos>Wow I just converted my windows to GPT by loading into repair/safe mode, typing in 3 commands in cmd and restart
17:13<_sos>I even put bios into EUFI only
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17:13<sney>oh cool, good find.
17:13<_sos>so now... same installation?
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17:14<sney>sure, and grub shouldn't freak out at the end this time, now that windows is in uefi mode
17:17<_sos>all this so I could use some tools that were only on linux lol. hopefully this time it works
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17:18<amacater>Yay :)
17:18<_sos>I wonder, would Debian work on surface pro 7? I'd love to be able to use it in class for this simulator i'm going to use
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17:19<sney>it's not trivial to install debian on most tablets, but you might be able to virtualize it
17:19<_sos>oh yeah that might be easier
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17:20<_sos>if I left my home pc on, could I even connect to it on a virtual image?
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17:20<_sos>sync up files and what not
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17:22<sney>by virtualized I mean running a debian install inside windows, via hyper-v or virtualbox etc
17:22<sney>the networking thing you're describing would be something else, maybe you're thinking of a VPN
17:22<amacater>You might even want to try WSL2 which works quite well.
17:23<amacater>But Hyper-V or similar vital at the moment if you're using graphics
17:23<tp43_>sney, it is non trivial to install debian on most tablets and touchscreen laptops too? Basically anything touch screen right?
17:24<amacater>tp43 - Tablets - especially Android tablets - is always a maybe. Touch screen laptops - not normally a problem now
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17:28<jhutchins>tp43_: THe nice thing is that most touchscreen systems have standardised the interface, so one driver pretty much covers them all.
17:28<jhutchins>tp43_: They used to all be unique, requiring digigging out a driver from the archives of a manufacturer web site.
17:29<jhutchins>tp43_: Even then, the behavior/response wouldn't be consistent.
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17:30<_sos>Loaded up into windows again no grub. Restarted, checked out bios settings, re booted and now no windows either. What a nightmare!
17:30<dpkg>To reinstall <GRUB> boot to your Debian install disk/live CD, switch to the other console (Alt-F2), mount your root filesystem (mount -t ext4 /dev/whatever /target ; mount --bind /dev /target/dev ; mount -t proc none /target/proc ; mount -t sysfs none /target/sys), chroot into it (chroot /target), run "mount /boot/efi" on EFI and "update-grub && grub-install /dev/whatever". See also <rescue mode>, <dual boot guide>, <supergrub>.
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17:33<_sos>I got windows back. Cursed install. Cursed firmware... everything >.<
17:33<_sos>I'm going to see if I can flash an update on my mobo
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17:35<_sos>I'm up to date on bios. I'm at a loss about what to do now. No linux for me. Will probably take another crack at it tomorrow
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17:36<tp43_>amacater, thx
17:36<tp43_>jhutchins, thx
17:36<sney>tp43_: yeah, sometimes there are issues with the touchscreen input on a touchscreen laptop, but the rest of it is supported as well as any laptop
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17:37<_sos>or maybe my new SSD is doa but I can see it in partition manager
17:37<tp43_>sney, thx
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17:39<_sos>In partition manager my windows is NTFS, but 100mb EFi, and for new SSD it has 512mb EFI system partition, 488 mb healthy primary and 464gb healthy partition
17:39<_sos>both are GPT
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17:39<sney>_sos: it sounds like your efi might just be lacking support for anything that isn't windows. which is disappointing, but not the biggest surprise... if you can get into the efi partition, try copying the grubx64.efi file to BOOTX64.efi, sometimes only that filename gets recognized
17:40<sney>otherwise, running linux as a virtual machine inside windows might be your only option for this hardware
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18:34<jkc>_sos: Are you trying to use both of those in the same system at the same time?
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18:40<_sos>@jkc I have Windows 10 on SSD1 and bought SSD2 to install Debian on. For whatever reason, my motherboard will not detect grub. I can view the partition from windows and verify it's installed. But other than that, it's completely invisible to the boot sequence. I think my motherboard only accepts UEIF but also weird that it says UEIF + Legacy enabled. The word legacy implies it should accept efi right?
18:40<_sos>I'm doing a clean windows install right now then going to do a clean debian on the other
18:43<jkc>_sos: Some UEFI implementations have undefined behaviors when more than one EFI system partition exists on the system.
18:43<jkc>So the ESP on the Windows SSD and the ESP on the second SSD may have issues coexisting.
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18:44<_sos>Is there a solution to that? I hoped having them on separate ssds would solve most of the issues with dual booting
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18:46<tristero>_sos: I would put a Debian /boot partition on the same disk as your EFI partition (and Windows), and use the 2nd SSD as Debian root
18:46<jkc>The boot partition doesn't need to be there.
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18:47<jkc>Just use the existing Windows ESP as the ESP for Debian as well.
18:47<jkc>Very, very little data actually does into the ESP, so it being 100MiB won't be problematic.
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19:08<_sos>the windows boot loader doesn't show debian in it just windows
19:10<lifesgood>_sos, run in a vm and be happy friend.
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19:12<sney>yeah honestly if you don't need direct access to any of your devices, a VM is the way to go
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19:17<Sqrt{not}>If you are dual booting in your setup, probably the only possibility would be installing grub to that first disk ESP, and letting grub manage the dual boot. Grub is usually pretty OK about finding a previous windows install, and adding that to its own menu.
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19:20<Sqrt{not}>(That is what jkc was already suggesting, I think)
19:20<Sqrt{not}>but let grub manage the dual boot, not windows
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19:22<Sqrt{not}>And make sure in the windows install that the "fast boot" or "Fast startup" or whatever they call it in this version, is disabled.
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19:35<_sos>so new play. Reformatting Windows, then from windows going to create a partition for Grub. Then on ssd2 install debian and hopefully grub will launch
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19:46<_sos>I feel like virtual machine is going to be in my future. Spent all this money on a new SSD >:C I'll have to find some use to it as a separate partition for something
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19:50<jkc>_sos: You're really going about this the hard way.
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19:51<jkc>Install Windows. When installing Debian, select the Windows EFI partition as the EFI System Partition within the Debian installer. Install everything else Debian on the second SSD. When the system boots, whatever keystroke gives you the UEFI boot menu, pick which you want: Windows, or GRUB. Off you go.
19:52<_sos>Okay I'll give it a ago. Last time it was asking me if I wanted to force UEIF or something like that
19:52<_sos>maybe I should have just hit yes?
19:52<lifesgood>_sos, you did the first mistake, pc windows from fabric. now you have to face the nasty consequences.
19:52<jkc>Make sure you're booting the installer in UEFI mode, not BIOS/CSM.
19:52<jkc>_sos: How did you create the install media, if I can ask?
19:53<jkc>lifesgood: Not helpful.
19:54<jkc>Okay, the installer media should be fine then. As long as it wasn't unetbootin or something.
19:54<lifesgood>the only time I came around a similar probçem, I selected legacy in bios and installed grup nicely
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19:54<_sos>I'll re-do that too. In the process of getting Win10 installer on usb
19:54<jkc>lifesgood: A mixed UEFI/CSM system is asking for trouble.
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19:55<_sos>I tried to install debian on the new SSD with no windows drive connected too. But the bios simply wouldn't see grub
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19:55<_sos>even if I wanted 100% linux, I can't get the thing to work on my mobo lol
19:56<jkc>If you booted the installer in BIOS/CSM mode, then its going to install grub in a way that the system isn't looking for it.
19:56<jkc>You have to boot the Debian installer in UEFI, NOT BIOS mode.
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19:57<_sos>When you say booted the installer in, what do you mean exactly? The only option is UEFI USB, or the just the name of the USB
19:57<jkc>UEFI USB.
19:57<_sos>Yeah so I did that one
19:57<jkc>But it asked you about forcing UEFI mode?
19:58<_sos>No that was before
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19:58<_sos>When I unplugged the windows ssd and installed on SSD2 from UEFI USB, no forcing option came up. It installed cleanly and then the bios would just not load anything on boot
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19:59<_sos>I'll find out more as I go through it again incase im misremembering
19:59<Sqrt{not}>don't unplug the windows disk
19:59<Sqrt{not}>leave it there, so grub-install can see the windows install
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19:59<_sos>That was the initial strategy. I've been at this all day lol
20:00<jkc>It won't need to see the Windows install.
20:00<Sqrt{not}>and install grub onto the windows ssd
20:00<jkc>It's not overwriting the Windows UEFI loader. It's just installing alongside it.
20:00<_sos>should I save a small partition on windows for grub? What size do you think? 500mb?
20:01<jkc>In UEFI, there is no grub partition.
20:01<jkc>Use the Windows ESP as the EFI partition. Period.
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20:02<_sos>What does it mean to use Windows ESP. The master boot loader that it uses?
20:02<jkc>The small 100MB partition you mentioned?
20:02<jkc>That's where Windows stores its bootloader. GRUB can go there as well.
20:02<jkc>That's the EFI System Partition, ESP.
20:02<_sos>oh ok so I just install it there alongside it
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20:04<_sos>now my windows 10 installer keeps being corrupt. this day has been comically bad
20:04<lifesgood>each OS in each SSD is a good idea. I cant picture the problem. It would just set in bios to boot from second SS|D and install grup, and dont mess with windows boot loader.
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20:05<_sos>The problem has been my bios doesn't recognize grub on its own, period. If it's on it's own SSD it never gets called
20:06<jkc>lifesgood: As was stated previously, UEFI firmware behavior is undefined when multiple ESPs are found on the system at the same time. Some may only look at the first one, and others may look at all of them.
20:06<lifesgood>anyway I would not recomment substitute windows boot loader for grub... just my humble opinion.
20:06<jkc>This is not BIOS/MBR. UEFI functions differently.
20:06<jkc>lifesgood: You're not substituting either for either.
20:07<_sos>I'm installing windows now, I see the 100mb system partition. Should I increase the size a bit to make room for grub later?
20:07<jkc>lifesgood: If I can offer a suggestion, look into the differences between BIOS and UEFI, and how each one boots the system.
20:07<jkc>_sos: Not needed. Even 100MB is massive for the small amount of stuff that gets put there.
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20:08<_sos>Okay thanks. Hope this works. It's been like 5 hours of reading, asking questions here, trying out different things others suggested
20:08<_sos>my last attempt for the day!
20:09<jkc>_sos: The ENTIRE grub-efi .deb package is 16KB.
20:09<jkc>Sorry, missed a zero. 160.
20:09<jkc>GRUB UEFI with the loader and ALL modules is about 9MB. So 100MB is plenty.
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20:11<jkc>(Linux installers generally make it around 512MB because of implementation strangeness with FAT32, not because it actually requires that much space.)
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20:39<_sos>@jkc I'm at the part where it's asking about partitions. Do I need to select manually?
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20:41<_sos>Guided Partitioning - use entire disk and set up LVM is what I did last time
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20:41<_sos>I wonder if I need to manually do it and set grub to windows esp
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20:46<_sos>The default is on the SSD as #2 f ext2 /boot I'm not sure how to move it to the other SSD
20:47<_sos>bootable flag is off for /boot, but for windows ESP it's on. Maybe that's why I couldn't see grub?
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20:55<somiaj>the boot flag really doens't mean much anymore, ignore that.
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20:58<_sos>yeah so the default guided partition essentially ensured that grub was on /boot of the ssd, not on windows esp
20:58<_sos>I'll have to re-do the install and see if I can google-fu my way into installing it onto the windows esp partition
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21:02<Sqrt{not}>does that new /boot partition have an "EFI" subdirectory in it?
21:04<Sqrt{not}>i.e. a subdirectory named /boot/EFI/
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21:08<_sos>there was an EFI partition with it
21:08<_sos>I deleted it along with the /boot partition
21:08<_sos>hopefully it will install on windows esp...
21:09<Sqrt{not}>OK good luck. but I think the way it might need to work is to allow that /boot partition in debian's disk, but set it up so the the windows (i.e. only) EFI partition is mounted for debian at /boot/EFI/
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21:10<somiaj>well grub is kinda in two places, /boot and the EFI partition.
21:11<somiaj>though when you run grub-install it puts it on the efi partition (installing the package puts it in /boot)
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21:11<somiaj>probably shoudln't have deleted /boot, just need to rerun grub-install and point it at the disk with the windows EFI partition
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21:12<Sqrt{not}>yeah, /boot has the initrd and and vmlinuz and config files, but the shim and efi loading of grub is probably in /boot/EFI
21:12<Sqrt{not}>yes, exactly, what somiaj said, should have worked
21:12<somiaj>oh yea, deleting /boot also takes out kernel and stuff, gonna be a bit harder to recover rom that
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21:14<Sqrt{not}>jmcnaught is absolutely correct: /boot/efi/EFI
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21:15<Sqrt{not}>that is where the windows disk (i.e. only) EFI partition should be mounted in the debian install
21:18<_sos>Okay so I'm reinstalling it and at partition...
21:18<_sos>So install it normal, let it make the ESP drive and /boot one and I'll change it to point to windows esp later?
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21:19<Sqrt{not}>I think it might be cleaner to get in manual partitioning, and ignore the other windows disk partitions, but explicitly say where you want to mount that ESP
21:20<somiaj>the expert mode might have a few more tools/options too
21:20<Sqrt{not}>you want part of grub to be in that real ESP partition when grub is installed, and the rest in the /boot partition
21:20<_sos>the mount was pointed to /boot and i could change to where it would point, but had no idea what to type to make it go to the windows esp
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21:23<Sqrt{not}>the /boot partition should be a new separate partition on the linux disk
21:24<Sqrt{not}>but in manual partitioning, you should be able to tell the installer you want to mount that one partition EFI from the windows disk at a certain place in the linux filesystem
21:24<somiaj>I don't recall you having to mount the efi partition, so I would double check that
21:24<somiaj>but at the grub install part, you need to state the disk the efi partition is on, and grub will install to that
21:25<somiaj>I foreget if you should just state the disk /dev/sdX or the actual efi partition /dev/sdXn, though I think both should work
21:27<_sos>Anyway, installed it. So I have debian on SSD2, with its default settings (grub partition ) and windows on SSD1. Bios still doesn't see SSD2/grub and only windows boots.
21:27<_sos>At least I'm back to square 1 after 5 and a half hours lol
21:27<_sos>Will maybe try again tomorrow because I've lost my day! THanks for help anyway
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21:27<Sqrt{not}>that is why I keep trying to suggest installing grub to the /EFI partition on the windows disk
21:28<_sos>that's what I wanted to do but I don't know/didn't know how
21:28<somiaj>maybe grub is having trouble registering the boot option with efivars, does your firmware have a way you can browse efi parottiions and choose the efi file to boot from?
21:28<_sos>nope. I bios cannot see EFI whatsoever
21:29<Sqrt{not}>somiaj, it looks like they put that part of grub on the second disk, not the main EFI partitoin
21:29<somiaj>hmm, yea this varies from firmware to firmware, but I am able to browse efipartitions with my firmware.
21:29<somiaj>sure, but if the usbstick is botting in uefi, you know the firwmare can deal with multiple efi partitions
21:29<_sos>I put all of grub on second disk because I didn't know how to move any part of it to main disk
21:29<somiaj>you could just try 'grub-install /dev/windowsdisk'
21:30<_sos>from the live demo?
21:30<somiaj>live demo?
21:30<somiaj>I thought I ahd you download a netinstall image
21:31<_sos>I've been using the GUI install so no terminal to run that command
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21:32<somiaj>that is fine, use the install image to 'rescue' your install, it will ask you some quetions about yoru root filesystem and so forth
21:32<somiaj>once it mounts your root file system there should be a 'launch a shell option' which you can then run that command
21:32<somiaj>there is also a reinstall grub option, and it will aks you what disk to install grub on, point it at your windows disk
21:33<_sos>oh there's a grub command line option
21:33<_sos>and I see rescue mode
21:34<_sos>rescume mode seems to be running the regular instlal with less pretty graphics
21:34<somiaj>basically but it won't install
21:34<_sos>ohh now its asking device to us as root file system
21:34<somiaj>after a few questions it will ask you to mount your root, boot and home partition
21:34<_sos>I see a lot of options
21:35<somiaj>now after you mount your partitions there is either reintall grub or launch termial option
21:35<_sos>which one again?
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21:35<_sos>A lot of /dev/ options
21:36<_sos>options /dev/nvme0n1p1, p2, p3, and /dev/sda/1,2,3,4, and /dev/sda1,2
21:36<_sos>sdb for those last wto I mean
21:39<_sos>ok i think im in /#
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21:48<Sqrt{not}>sdb is probably the USB stick, if that is what you are running from
21:48<Sqrt{not}>I thought you said both the permanent drives were SSD?
21:49<somiaj>well ssd can connect via either sata or nvme, so I think those could both be ssd
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22:01<_sos>n2vme. is that going to make local area be /dev/nvme0n1p1?
22:01<_sos>instead of the sda paradigm
22:01<somiaj>you should be able to just state /dev/nvme0n1 (I think it can find the correct partition from that), otherwise you need figre out if p1, p2 or p3 is your efi parittion
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22:02<_sos>my current experiment is no efi partition. a bios reserve for grub, swap, and ext4 and that's it
22:02<_sos>im hoping at the end it will ask me where to install grub and I'll select the esp on windows
22:02<somiaj>if you open up a terminal, 'fdisk -l /dev/nvme0n1' will tell you the partition table
22:02<somiaj>which disk is your windows partition on?
22:03<_sos>sda3 I believe
22:03<somiaj>point grub at y our windows efi partition, so select which one is the windows efi partition
22:03<somiaj>ahh, well if you open up a terminal, you can use 'fdisk -l /dev/sda' to check, but if /dev/sda3 is your windows efi partition, tell grub to install on that (though I think /dev/sda is enough and it will find the efi partition)
22:03<_sos>unable to install grub, this is a fatal error. oops
22:04<_sos>guess it needed its own efi
22:04<somiaj>It shouldn't you might have pointed it at the wrong disk/partition
22:04<_sos>it didn't ask where I wanted to point it
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22:04<_sos>it just started doing its thing on its own
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22:05<_sos>it let me go back to partitions though
22:05<_sos>looks like it changed my grub reserve to an esp
22:05<somiaj>there should be an option that you can state which partition to use, here just open up a termianl (should have an option for that) and from the terminal run 'grub-install /dev/sda' (assuming that is your windows disk)
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22:06<somiaj>grub reserve?
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22:06<_sos>reserved bios boot area
22:07<_sos>fat32 file system lets me mount
22:07<_sos>options /dos /windows or enter manually
22:07<_sos>isn't grub on a fat system typicallyi?
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22:08<somiaj>I think your are blurring a lot of things together.
22:08<somiaj>grub is on an ext? (or nix filesystem), but it installs the bootloader onto either the MBR protion of an MBR partition or an efi partition (which yes is vfat)
22:09<_sos>I think maybe because i'm using graphical installer I can't choose where grub goes?
22:09<somiaj>nope, that shouldn't matter
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22:12<_sos>im at a loss then. maybe ill do the auto partition and see if i can go back and edit it
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22:13<_sos>do I need to erase data on a partition before deleting it and creating a new one?
22:14<_sos>oh yeah my windows is a mbr too
22:14<_sos>and im doing uefi installation
22:15<somiaj>no, data is just basically lost once you create a new partition table, and then put a file system over it
22:15<somiaj>there are ways to recover it, so if you think the data was sensitive you may need to do some destruvtive secure errase, but I don't think you ahve put any sensitive data there
22:15<somiaj>yea, and mbr partitiohn table won't have an efi partition
22:16<somiaj>Im' unsure why your firmware is not seeing the efi partition on the second disk, I think it is firmware/bios configuration personally, but that varies drastically from mobo to mobo
22:17<_sos>I tried something new, guided partition entire disk with LVM
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22:18<_sos>and that created a #1 esp, #2 a 511mb ext2 pointing at /boot and 499gb lvm ex4
22:18<_sos>I can change the mount point from /boot to somethinge else
22:19<_sos>my windows ESP is on sda#1
22:19<_sos>so do I just write /sda1 ?
22:19<_sos>screw it, that's what im doing. wish me luck
22:21<somiaj>you keep saying contradictory info, if windows is using mbr/legacy boot it won't have an esp partition
22:22<_sos>I'm just reading what I see
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22:22<_sos>ill double check in windows if its mbr
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22:23<_sos>okay my bad so looks like my fresh install in windows changed it to GPT
22:23<_sos>my oriignal windows was MBR
22:23<somiaj>ahh okay
22:24<_sos>so i"m not back to completely square 1. I'm at square with 1 with a GPT windows
22:28<SecOPs>Wow , GalliumOS crashed during install on an old chromebook so I tried several other linux distros but getting sound to work was a major PITA. So, I install debian install the firmware(s) -- firmware-intel-sound & firmware-sof-signed and the sound works !
22:29<SecOPs>I probably could have gotten it to work in arch linux too but I hate the install I can do the install I just think it is annoying
22:31<SecOPs>not sure if I needed both those firmware packages but oh well
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22:37<SecOPs>_sos: I just got here but you sound like an ultra n00b
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22:37<_sos>I have access to grub command line. Is there a command I can use to simply load up my installation?
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22:43<_sos>I am in root shell in rescue mode :)
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22:56<kookikodes>Hello, I'm trying to figure out my issue with my linux OS not detecting my Intel AX200 (rev 1a). But the driver and everything is loaded. Any help with this would be amazing, thank you ahead of time. I'm open to any ideas :) !
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22:58<dvs>kookikodes: apt install firmware-iwlwifi
23:02<_sos>My efi system partition with boot,esp flags is on /dev/nvme0n1 and my grub is located on /boot, and my windows 10 esp bootloader is on /dev/sda1. How can I make it so my grub is on that windows 10 esp?
23:03<somiaj>grub-install /dev/sda
23:03<_sos>At the moment I can only get into my debian ssd through rescue mode
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23:06<_sos>okay thanks ill see if it worked
23:07<_sos>nope. I am officially defeated. virtual machine linux for me it is
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23:25<maxtim>Is it possible to output audio to both alsa output (headphones) and some kind of net stream available on the lan? Maybe I'd listen via VLC or something like that
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23:48<kookikodes>Thank you for taking interest in my problem xD, dvs.So I tried `sudo apt install firmware-iwlwifi` and still nothing. I definitely have the firmware needed for it, it's like it just doesn't recognize it.
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23:52<Sqrt{not}>kookikodes, what "driver and everything" is loaded?
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23:56<Sqrt{not}>kookikodes, also, what linux version are you running now? Maybe not new enough?
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---Logclosed Fri Aug 13 00:00:52 2021