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#debian IRC Logs for 2021-08-20

---Logopened Fri Aug 20 00:00:02 2021
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00:32-!-mimi89999 is "mimi89999" on #debian #debian-next #fdroid #debian-voip
00:35<somiaj>sychill: was there any new options added to say maybe turn this new behavior off?
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00:39<somiaj>quick look at the manual page, unsure if -w (wipe) or -f (force) would help out.
00:39<jhutchins>sychill: Amazing that thousands of people manage to use them nonetheless.
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02:52<EdePopede>'I'll try to remember “judd”' - heh, my problem exactly. usually i do a search for ',v' and /query that bot then. usually i don't get nearer that jeff or jess (dpkg is another story, because dpkg(1))
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03:18<themill>EdePopede: if it helps, judd's database is called the Ultimate Debian Database or UDD for short. Back in the mists of time, the bot was called judd because that's a name with "udd" in it.
03:19<EdePopede>themill: i'm generally really bad with names
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03:19<EdePopede>maybe i just shouldn't try to remember it as a name bat as an full lenght technical description :|
03:20<EdePopede>you could have called that whole dang Fudd instead (with F as in Fvwm ;)) and the bot Elmer
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04:28<sunkan>I understand this is very subjective, but are there any recommendations for replacement of kopete (that is unavailable in bullseye)?
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04:30<jm_>never used either KDE or chat clients, but apt found kde-telepathy
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04:32<sunkan>jm_: Yes, maybe I should try that. I know of pidgin, but maybe not the first choice when using KDE.
04:32<jm_>sunkan: maybe searching for specific variant (i.e. MSN, jabber ...) yields more results
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04:34<sunkan>jm_: I have looked some, but it is very difficult to understand how good a program is to use just by looking at protocols supported etc.
04:34<jm_>sunkan: have you looked at screenshots debian might have?
04:35<sunkan>jm_: Telepathy should be something for me to try as it seems to be integrated with KDE to some extent, although I am not using so much of the KDE specific functionality.
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04:35<sunkan>jm_: No, have not looked at any screenshots. Is there a web page for that or what?
04:36<jm_>sunkan: PDO page has screenshot link, i.e. https://packages.debian.org/bullseye/kde-telepathy look in upper right
04:36<jm_>this one has only one, some other packages have more screenshotsb
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04:38<sunkan>jm_: Ok, thanks. Have not noticed it, probably most packages I look up there are not graphical ones. A screenshot sometimes say more than a thousand words ;)
04:39<jm_>np
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04:57<adhawkins>Getting the following error when trying to 'apt update' an old stretch box: 'The following signatures couldn't be verified because the public key is not available: NO_PUBKEY 648ACFD622F3D138 NO_PUBKEY 0E98404D386FA1D9'. Where can I retrieve these keys?
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05:00<amacater>adhawkins - debian-keyring should have them, but of course everything has been bumped as stretch has become oldoldstable.
05:01<amacater>Or, of course, you can download them from a keyring server
05:01<jm_>648ACFD622F3D138 seems to be debian-archive-buster-automatic.gpg
05:02<amacater>So - how are you upgrading?
05:02<jm_>looks like both are in there
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05:08<holger>After upgrade buster->bullseye, I can boot the old kernel (4.19.0-17-amd64), but not the new kernel (5.10.0-8-amd64). Last message appearing in recovery mode with 5.10 kernel is a graphics chip (i915) frame buffer message. The subsequent boot message with the old kernel is "Begin: Loading essential drivers ... done." Thus I assume that somethin is missing in the initrd.img, but I do not know why and how to fix. :(
05:09<jm_>holger: try booting without quiet option
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05:10<holger>Without quiet option is what is being done in recovery mode, isnt't it?!? This is why I see that the boot process hangs after the frame buffer message. I am stuck with a blinking underscore.
05:10<jm_>without quiet you see kernel messages, so you get more info
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05:11<amacater>I'd be tempted to try booting into rescue mode from the firmware netinst and see what happens ...
05:11<jm_>i915 also has debug messages that can be enabled AFAIK
05:11<holger>jm_: yes, I understand that I get the kernel messages without "quiet" as kernel option. But I do believe that booting in recovery mode is by default without quiet option, right?
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05:13<holger>I do believe that it is not the i915 driver which is the problem (as the boot message is still appearing). I fear it is the next step in the boot process, which is not working (but might be wrong....)
05:15<jm_>holger: I don't use debian genereated grub.cfg, but the one I have from debian still uses quiet in the entry with single as parameter
05:18<jm_>I would also check if system is pingable/remotely reachable at that stage
05:18<holger>jm_ recovery mode options are "ro single", thus no quiet. This is only in the non-recovery mode entry, which is "ro quiet splash"
05:20<jm_>holger: OK, so you see all kernel messages then?
05:23<holger>jm_: Yes, I see all kernel messages during boot, both with the working old 4.19 kernel and the non-working 5.10 kernel. I have photographed them, but I assume that they should also be in some log file (which exactly?! kernel log seems not 100% identical to what I see during boot)
05:24<jm_>holger: journalctl (make sure persistent journal is enabled) - but if the boot did not reach the point where / is rw, it won't be saved
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05:34<holger>jm_: looks like journalctl (respective /var/log/journal contains info (in general terms). Now I have to dig if I can find the correct entry. Otherwise, I have to reboot now into the 5.10 to have a time stamp where I know that I have to look for...
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05:37<holger>jm_: I guess I will reboot now to have a defined time stamp to look for. I cannot find the pattern "essential" (of the boot message appearing on the screen with the 4.19 version ("Loading essential drivers")) in the journal....
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05:54<holger>jm_: You were right. Booting the 5.10 kernel, it never reaches rw and thus no boot messages in journalctl
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05:55<holger>When booting kernel 5.10 hangs, I can type and it appears on the screen, but as it is not an emergency shell, it obviously has no effect. I cannot switch to other tty (via Str + Alt + F?), but I can force a rebbot with Str + Alt + Del
05:56<jm_>yeah you only get one tty in rescue shell, tried looking at dmesg output?
05:57<adhawkins>Is there an apt command to upgrade a single package?
05:57<jm_>apt install foo
05:57<adhawkins>But doesn't that also mark it as to specifically install rather than allow it to be an automatic dependency?
05:58<jm_>yes
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05:58<adhawkins>Ah ok. Not ideal, but it'll do. Thanks jm_
05:59<jm_>adhawkins: maybe you can look at its status first and adjust it if needed
05:59<jm_>i.e. apt-mark
05:59<adhawkins>TOo late jm_. Not the end of the world. That's resolved the key issues too. Thanks for the assistance.
05:59<holger>jm_: What do you mean with "looking at dmesg output"? The kernel messages during boot? Yes. (dmesg now (I booted back into the working 4.19 kernel) is likely not meant?!)
06:00<holger>My system has full disk encryption (with exception of /boot) and I do not get to the point where I am asked for the passphrase to unlock the disk.
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06:01<holger>...but initrd.img generation should be performed for both kernels with identical parameters, thus I am not sure that this is the issue....
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06:03<jm_>holger: to compare working vs. non working boot
06:03<holger>When I compare file sizes in /boot, the striking difference between 4.19 files and 5.10 files is System.map (with 4.19 kernel System.map being 3,3 MB while the 5.10 System.map is only 83 kB. Is this where to dig for the solution?!?
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06:04<jm_>unlikely, mine says ffffffffffffffff B The real System.map is in the linux-image-<version>-dbg package
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06:05<jm_>and it's literally 83 bytes
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06:07<grove>Is there a non-racy way of getting the id of the window a shell (script) is running in? I currently have a script starting (after the shebang line) with 'WID=$(xdotool getactivewindow)' but if some other window get focus between the time this script starts and this command executes, this finds the wrong value
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06:08<jm_>grove: if it's a unique app maybe output of xlsclient
06:09<jm_>with -l option
06:09<jm_>xlsclients too
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06:12<grove>jm_: In most cases it won't be unique
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06:14<jm_>grove: in some cases xprop shows PID, maybe check that too
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06:18<holger>jm_: the boot messages (until disk decryption) of the working kernel (4.19) are here: https://postimg.cc/rKvmMR8n
06:19<holger>jm_: the boot messages of kernel 5.10 until it stalls are here: https://postimg.cc/crqyJRnn
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06:21<holger>jm_: I can also upload higher resolution version if needed (I was before struggling with https://paste.debian.net/, but maybe that is not foreseen for .jpg attachments
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06:35<sunkan>jm_: FYI unfortunately kde-telepathy does not work with XMPP due to telepathy-gabber is not availabel in bullseye. I will probably try pidgin then as that has worked some time in the past.
06:36<sunkan>telepathy-gabble
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06:57<jm_>holger: I would still try using i915 debug as that's the last thing printed, alternatively I would also try without mode setting
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07:05<grove>jm_: By default (and Ihaven't found a useable way around that) requires me to click the window I want information about, I'm looking for something that doesn't require interaction
07:07<holger>jm_: What would be the parameter for the grub line to have debug mode for i915? For "without mode setting", I assume I would use i915.modeset=0 right?
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07:09<jm_>holger: either that or just 'nomodeset' I think; for i915 debug it's drm.debug=0x1e log_buf_len=1M (from https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/drm/intel/-/wikis/How-to-file-i915-bugs)
07:11<jm_>grove: yeah, I am not aware of other options
07:13<holger>jm_: I will reboot and test. Thanks!
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07:16<cc>why does https://packages.debian.org/search?keywords=perl show buster as stable?
07:16<cc>clearly, bullseye is stable, no?
07:17<vv221>cc, this is a bug of packages.debian.org, I think it has already been reported.
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07:35<EmleyMoor>I just got an unexpected prompt for my password when I called a script with some sudo commands in that are set to NOPASSWD: in /etc/sudoers - and it worked just fine in buster... how do I tragce what's changed?
07:36<EmleyMoor>Ah, I think I see it
07:37<EmleyMoor>Location of binary moved from /bin to /sbin
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07:38<EmleyMoor>Hmmm... will this take a fresh login to take effect?
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07:50<EmleyMoor>Or, does sudo now require more explicit command spec than it used to?
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07:52<holger>jm_: I am back (right now from the desktop) with some further elements but no solution yet: I might not have been patiened enough. Booting kernel 5.10 (on the laptop, where I have the issue) eventually leads to the disk-decryption prompt (some 2 minutes later)
07:53<holger>Having nomodeset or i915.modeset=0 as kernel parameters added in grub, leads to kernel panic sometime after disc decryption
07:55<holger>Having drm.debug=0x1e and log_buf_len=1M as kernel parameters, does not provide any further insight. No kernel panic, but also not booting through (at least for the time being - if it boots, than awfully slow)
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07:56<holger>jm_: Last message before disk-decrypt is: "Failed to wait for daemon to reply: connection timed out" Not sure, which daemon fails to reply....
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08:01<jm_>holger: the drm log would need to be checked by someone familiar with details anyway
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08:02<holger>jm_: This is the situation without setting nomodeset (which leads to kernel crash): https://postimg.cc/K3nxyMLX
08:03<jm_>holger: I think udev is meant, but the underlying reason must be something else
08:04<EmleyMoor>Hmmm...
08:04<cc>seems like firefox has decided that it can just stop working under one of the xserver-xorg-video drivers and no one will notice
08:04<cc>amazing
08:05<holger>I have done right now the obvious (wonder why not before): I unplugged the external USB hub, where the logitech receiver, a USB security token and a USB mirco/loudspeaker are hooked up. No difference though. Still ~2 minute lag between last normal boot behaviour and appearance of "Loading essential drivers" and de-crypt-prompt and still stuck in nirvana after entering pass phrase :(
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08:07<holger>jm_: I am AFK now for a while, but leave the laptop running (to see if it finally boots through) and the Desktop running too (to see what's happening on IRC). Thanks already so far for all your suggestions and help
08:07<EmleyMoor>I need the users in my kvm group to be able to run /sbin/ip (with any options would do at present) as though root without a password. Why does this line no longer work? %kvm ALL=(root) NOPASSWD: VMMOUNT, /sbin/ip
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08:20<fleg>Hi, I've got a device running Debian 9 (will probably update soon, but due to some issues this is risky at the moment), and files under /sys/class/gpio are owned by root:root. Is there any easy to use way to change the ownership of those to a different group? Or maybe it was introduced in later releases? Or am I left with writing a script that chowns those files? Thanks in advance for help!
08:25<holger>jm_: I am back. The laptop still hangs after the decrypt prompt. It is either not working at all or way too slow for any practical purpose. I will still try the firmware netinstall proposal, but need to download the iso and get it on a USB stick (which is not for now). Unless you have any further proposals, I tend to stick with the 4.19 kernel for the time being....
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08:26*EmleyMoor is getting really annoyed at this now
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08:28<cc>the "Caution" note in https://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/debian-reference/ch05.en.html#_the_network_connection_method_legacy suggests using wicd package as one of the alternatives, but wicd was removed
08:29<jm_>holger: sadly I have no other sensible solution
08:30<vv221>EmleyMoor, for comparison, a sudoers entry I have here and is fully working:
08:30<vv221>%nginx ALL=(ALL) NOPASSWD: /usr/local/bin/nginx-reload
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08:32<EmleyMoor>Why is it fully *NOT* working for me?
08:32<holger>jm_: No worries. Thanks anyhow for proposing options. Much appreciated!
08:33<jm_>holger: np, hopefully you'll find the solution
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08:34<vv221>EmleyMoor, the main difference I see in what you shared is the "VMMOUNT,"
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08:35<EmleyMoor>vv221: I took that out (it's an alias for a whole list of mount and umount commands), no change
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08:35<EmleyMoor>The only main difference is it is insisting on a password where it didn't in buster (or even, before today, in bullseye IIRC, but DQM on that)
08:36<vv221>sudo 1.9.5p2-3 ?
08:36<vv221>(this is what I have here)
08:36<EmleyMoor>/sbin/ip alone should mean "any invocation of /sbin/ip" shouldn't it?
08:37<vv221>Yes, it should be.
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08:37<EmleyMoor>Yes, that's my version
08:38<vv221>I’m on Sid right now, but with the same version (and it’s very close to Bullseye anyway for now).
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08:39<vv221>Is it only the NOPASSWD: that is ignored, or the full line?
08:39<vv221>Wild guess here, but maybe the entire conf file is ignored due to some syntax trick.
08:39<EmleyMoor>Ah, it seems the order of the lines has become important!
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08:40<EmleyMoor>It was processing me as %staff, not as %kvm, until I changed it
08:40<vv221>That what I would call a syntax trick ;) Even a nasty syntax trick…
08:41<EmleyMoor>Logical, interesting but completely out of the blue
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08:43<tepozoa>holger: try adding a bunch of debug flags to your GRUB boot for that 5.10 kernel, here's a list I have in my notepad for debugging systemd (so should kinda work): systemd.log_level=debug systemd.log_target=kmsg log_buf_len=1M printk.devkmsg=on
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08:46<tepozoa>holger: also check your /etc/initramfs-tools/initramfs.conf -- is it set to the default "most" or did you perhaps tweak it? (thought: maybe a kernel module which used to get put into your 4.x initrd isn't making it to the 5.x initrd)
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08:47<tepozoa>to that end, you can use `lsinitramfs` to list the contents of your /boot initrd -- if you do that against the 4.x and 5.x kernel to text files, then diff them maybe something curious will pop out of the woodwork
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08:48<EmleyMoor>Have USB-attached hard drive names become somehow "persistent"?
08:49<EmleyMoor>I expected my disk mounted as "/media/phil/backup" but it's "/media/phil/backup1"
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08:50<holger>tepozoa: initramfs.conf looks normal and I cannot remember having tweaked anythin here.... https:// paste.debian.nez/1208324/
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08:52<EmleyMoor>(or, is it numbering them all from 1 now?
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08:54<EmleyMoor>Hmmm... could just be a "remnant" mount point - removed
08:55<EmleyMoor>(backups probably failed as a result for the last few days)
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08:58<holger>tepozoa: the diff of the initram looks like this (sorry, debian pastebin nagged about the size, thus alternative pastebin): https://pastebin.com/qRFT5Qqn/
08:58<tepozoa>holger: yeah looks to be defaults I think. Go with adding a bunch of debug flags to your kernel boot, there's better messaging hiding in there needed to expose whatever is going wrong - the kernel is very verbose with debug flags
08:59<tepozoa>you didn't include the command, what was on the left and what was on the right
09:00<tepozoa>you said you have an i915 and is sure does look like you're missing i915 firmware in one of those
09:00<tepozoa>> usr/lib/firmware/i915/bxt_guc_33.0.0.bin
09:01<holger>diff lsinit4.19 lsinit5.10 -> thus 4.19 on the left, 5.10 on the right I suppose
09:01<tepozoa>yeah, OK further down I see 4.x on left and 5.x on right, your 5.x initramfs is missing all your i915 firmware blobs
09:02<tepozoa>I highly suspect you need to install firmware packages and rebuild your initramfs for the 5.x
09:03<jm_>is this a new install?
09:03<holger>tepozoa: this is something that I feared. What do I have to do to get the firmware blobs into the 5.10 image? It is an uprade buster->bullseye, so in theory the firmware which was there in the past should still be there
09:03<holger>No, it is an upgrade, but I will see what I find w.r.t. firmware and i915
09:03<tepozoa>_nod_ I don't know where i915 is, free or non-free -- digging around
09:04<jm_>I thought so hence I didn't even bother verifying if you have firmware files :)
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09:04<tepozoa>anyone know where i915 firmware blobs hide?
09:05<jm_>firmware-misc-nonfree
09:05<holger>I have firmware-misc-nonfree installed in version 20210315-3
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09:06<jm_>you should have a whole bunch of files in /lib/firmware/i915/
09:06<tepozoa>do a: find /lib/modules -name i915\*
09:06<tepozoa>do they already show up in 5.x space?
09:07<tepozoa>https://packages.debian.org/bullseye/firmware-misc-nonfree it's in there, yeah
09:07<holger>I can confirm a bunch of files do exist in /lib/firmware/i915
09:08<tepozoa>but they're not in your initramfs
09:08<tepozoa>have you just tried rebuilding the initramfs?
09:08<tepozoa>you'd have to use the flag on the 4.x kernel to tell it the 5.x kernel (man page), don't touch your 4.x kerne
09:08<tepozoa>it's working, don't break 4.x
09:08<holger>There are two modules for 5.10 and two for 4.19 in /lib/modules (will do a pastebin in a second (and be patiened with me, I am following your proposals line by line...))
09:09<tepozoa>your previous paste shows the firmware is /not/ making it into your initramfs
09:09<tepozoa>(I think?)
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09:09<holger>https://paste.debian.net/1208327/ shows the modules in /lib/modules
09:10<holger>tepozoa: Most likely the case, if you say so. I do believe that I have rebuild the initramfs, but only 99% sure
09:10<jm_>enough for me today, good luck
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09:11<tepozoa>yeah, so the way this LGPL stuff works is that these modules on boot (load) look for a firmware from /lib/firmware/ and pull it in
09:11<tepozoa>I say go with option (1) again -- boot with a whole slew of kernel debug=on flags
09:12<tepozoa>there has got to be some kernel messaging telling us a story
09:12<tepozoa>"talk to me, Goose"
09:12<holger>tepozoa: So reboot with kernel options (well noted down) before trying to rebuild initramfs, right?
09:12<tepozoa>yeah I mean broken is broken
09:12<tepozoa>might as well just try the debug output
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09:14<EmleyMoor>Hmmm... seems I may be wrong about the sudo thing!
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09:17<holger>I am currently starting with all your proposed kernel options, but I am getting flooded with tons of messages (currently modprobe -b .... failed with exit code 1.)
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09:17<tepozoa>yes, this is part of the pain
09:17<tepozoa>sifting through walls of debug log to find the needle in the haystack
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09:18<holger>tepoza: I just hope that there are some usefull messages at the end, as the buffer likely has no longer the early messages....
09:18<tepozoa>I always try and use the 50% rule - find a midpoint, test left test right, go in the most likely direction. repeat.
09:19<tepozoa>your problem kinda sucks, and it's a bit of a beast to sit here and debug but, well, you want it to work
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09:21<tepozoa>holger: cheat sheet I have around, if you first create this shell script, then reboot with all the debug stuff that can get saved to a file https://paste.debian.net/1208329/
09:22<tepozoa>tl;dr - systemd has a built-in way to copy the kernel bugger to disk on shutdown
09:22<tepozoa>*buffer
09:22<holger>tepozoa: Most messages are repeating itself currently: systemd-udevd[125]: 2-2: Process 'sbin/modprobe -b qcserial' failed with exit code 1. Every other line is qmi_wwan instead of qcserial.
09:22<tepozoa>I'm not sure if it'll work in your situation, since we can't really get it to unlock your encrypetd disk
09:24<tepozoa>huh! well shoot, I have no clue what those are - try addint to your kernel commandline: rd.blacklist=qcserial,qmi_wwlan (to cause the initrd to skip them - "rd" == "ramdisk"
09:24<holger>With >2 minutes of patience, I came to the decrypt prompt before. Not sure if this has passed by in the mean time, while I getting continued to be spammed with the modprobe error message
09:24<tepozoa>_nod_
09:25<tepozoa>so in spirit: the hardware scan says hey I found this hardware, lemme load the module for it and that process is failing and looping
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09:26<tepozoa>I have a laptop SD card reader that does that to me (broken hardware_ on a Dell, I disable the sd card reader in the bios
09:26<holger>seems indeed that I was at the point of decrypting the disk, but I Str+Alt+Del and will add the blacklist entry to the kernel parameters
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09:28<tepozoa>modingo says qcserial == Qualcomm USB Serial Adapater
09:28<tepozoa>*modinfo
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09:29<tepozoa>firmware-qcom-soc and firmware-qcom-media exist in the repos
09:30<tepozoa>qualcomm firmware
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09:31<tepozoa>https://github.com/torvalds/linux/blob/master/drivers/usb/serial/qcserial.c <- comments show Dell uses this
09:31<tepozoa>try installing the firmware-qcom* packages, rebuild 5.x initramfs ?
09:32<tepozoa>I think it's barfing on the WWAN (4G LTE) hardware in your laptop
09:32<holger>I have a WWAN (LTE modem) built in. That worked flawlessly before buster. Since buster and with bullseye, it sometimes appears (and is working (not sure if I have thos firmware files installed or not) and works, or it does not show up at all in the network manager. But that is a different issue and of low priority
09:33<holger>the kernel line has failed (maybe I mistyped something?) - still geth the modprobe messages. I will boot 4.19, look for the firmware files and rebuild 5.10 initramfs
09:33<holger>BTW, it is a Dell Laptop (Latitude 7820)
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09:34<tepozoa>yep, saw it in your prompt :)
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09:35<holger>tepozoa: I admit I am not very creativ in giving names to computers.... ;)
09:35<tepozoa>I use a bunch of Dells, but not with the WWAN hardware
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09:36<tepozoa>holger: might I recommend https://www.fantasynamegenerators.com/ ? :)
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09:36<tepozoa>Oblivion/Skyrim wiki are also good sources for names :)
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09:38<tepozoa>holger: open a private irc chat to me when you're ready, let's stop spamming #debian
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09:58<bittin>https://i.imgur.com/hzqudSu.jpg
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10:29<scorpion2185[m]>I can open only one instance of nemo from GNOME menu
10:30<scorpion2185[m]>is it normal when upgrading to don't have `/etc/gru.d/10_linux`?
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11:30<vv221>Does anyone else here get difficulties installaing both Python 2 and Python 3 in a clean Buster chroot?
11:31<vv221>I’m trying to build a Buster backport of https://packages.debian.org/bullseye/gyp
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11:31<vv221>(because the Bullseye version no longer depends on Python 2)
11:31-!-taowa is "taowa rosetwig" on #oftc #debian-privacy #debian-nonupload #debian-quebec #Qubes_OS #debian-next #debian-gnupg
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11:31<vv221>But some build-dep brings Python 2.
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11:32<vv221>And when dpkg tries to set up python2-minimal, it fails, seemingly by trying to parse /usr/lib/python3.7/site.py as some Python 2 source file.
11:33<jimpop>try installing python-is-python2 pkg
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11:34<vv221>Is see that it is the asciidoc build-dep that is bringing the Python 2 dep, I will try to backport it first.
11:34<somiaj>python-is-python2 I don't think is in buster, because in buster that is default
11:35<vv221>Right, it only comes with Bullseye.
11:35<somiaj>vv221: that is strange it is pulling in python2, since asciidoc in bullseye doesn't pull in python2
11:35<vv221>somiaj, the backport is built on a Buster ;)
11:35<somiaj>maybe you'll have to change the build deps?
11:35<somiaj>sure, but sounds like just a conflict with package names, so change build deps to match buster package names?
11:36<vv221>Sorry, I don’t get it (the part about conflictuous names).
11:37<somiaj>also isn't asciidoc ruby?
11:38<somiaj>vv221: I could be incorrect on that, but I would track down exactly what builddepend is trying to pull in python2 and see why (then maybe see if you can make it use a python3 depends in stead)
11:38<vv221>I don’t know, but the Buster version has a hard dependency on python2: https://packages.debian.org/buster/asciidoc-base
11:38<vv221>Well, I tracked that back to asciidoc ;)
11:39<somiaj>wonder why it requires python.
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11:39<vv221>But my issue is not with the backports building, I can manage to find a workaround.
11:39<vv221>It’s about Python 2 and 3 not being co-installable on Debian Buster.
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11:39<vv221>This sounds like a nasty bug.
11:39<somiaj>vv221: that does seem strange, they should be instalable side by side
11:40<vv221>Well, if it were on some old system I would have thought about an issue on my end. But this is in a fresh chroot.
11:40<somiaj>what is the error you get when trying to install them both?
11:41<vv221>(preparing a paste…)
11:42<somiaj>I'm also creating a chroot to try
11:42<vv222[BI]>somiaj: https://paste.debian.net/plain/1208354
11:43<vv221>Outside of the chroot I already have both Python 2 & 3 installed.
11:43<vv221>The same syntax error spawns if I try to run `python` or `python2` to get an interactive Python prompt.
11:43<vv221>(no problem when running `python3`)
11:44<somiaj>I made a fresh chroot, installed python, then installed python3, and had no issues
11:45<vv221>Here it is the other way around (3 first, then 2), but I am not sure it matters.
11:45<vv221>You can get a Python 2 prompt?
11:45<somiaj>It also seems strange to me that python2-minimial install scripts are using a file in /usr/lib/python3.7
11:45<somiaj>Yes, I can get a python2 prompt just fine, I'll try again, and install python3 first (I was surprised it wasn't installed by default int he chroot)
11:47<vv221>For more context, the chroot is spawned by this tool: https://forge.dotslashplay.it/vv221/deb-bpo-builder
11:47<vv221>(using mmdebstrap)
11:47<somiaj>add I'm just use debbootstrap
11:47<somiaj>arg debootstrap
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11:48<somiaj>okay, installed python3 then python, no problem in a clean buster chroot using debootstrap
11:48<vv221>(on my way for a minimal try with deboostrap)
11:49<somiaj>vv221: grep site.py /var/lib/dpkg/info/python2-minimal.postinst -- what does that return on your chroot?
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11:49<vv221>Not an easy question, as it is a volatile chroot ;)
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11:50<somiaj>https://paste.debian.net/1208355/ -- in my chroot that is the python2-minimial.postinst script, I don't see any mention of this /usr/lib/python3.7/site.py file your configuration script is trying to run, sounds like something is funky on your end
11:50<somiaj>or at least I'm not able to reproduce the issue using just debootstrap
11:51<vv221>On a truly minimal chroot with deboostrap, same host, I do not reproduce the issue either.
11:51<somiaj>wonder if something is messed up with that python install and it is confused and using /usr/lib/python3.7 instead of /usr/lib/python2.7?
11:52<somiaj>yea, I see both /usr/lib/python{2,3}.7/site.py on my chroot. Something is funky with the python in your chroot using the wrong /usr/lib/ directoyr, it should be using /usr/python2.7/, but isn't
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11:53<vv221>OK, since this happens on the system I use for Python development, I’m beginning to suspect some setting leak between the host and the chroot…
11:54<vv221>Yes, this is it!
11:54<vv221>Some PYTHONPATH env var got passed from the host to the chroot, with Python 3 libraries paths in it.
11:54<vv221>Of course I saw it previously…
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11:55<vv221>And so dropped it with `unset PYTHON_PATH`
11:55<vv221>Notice the extra underscore?
11:55<vv221>Well, I did not ;P
11:55<somiaj>yup
11:55<somiaj>it was sneaking into your workflow causing problems
11:55<vv221>So of course, I did not unset the right variable…
11:56<somiaj>small things like that are the worst
11:56<vv221>And with that out of the way, the semi-automated backport is done!
11:57<vv221>Leading to the full removal of Python 2 from this system \o/
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11:57<vv221>(well, again…)
11:57<vv221>Thanks for the help somiaj ;)
11:58<somiaj>glad you tracked down the issue
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11:59<vv221>I wonder is passing env vars from the current user to the chroot spawned by mmdebstrap is a wanted behaviour… I should probably bring that up to the team behind this tool.
11:59<vv221>(I really like this tool because of the full non-root debootstrap-like + chroot stuff)
12:00<Slashman>hello, I'm trying to determine how a process uses its memory, I used pmap for that, but I only see anon memory so I can't do anything with that... any idea how to have a better idea of what exactly is in memory for a specific process?
12:00<somiaj>vv221: that just might be the behavior of chroot, I notice that in my chroot some of my enviormoent leaked over (such as my DISPLAY, XAUTHORITY, etc
12:01<vv221>somiaj, I just noticed that chroot default command is `sh -i`. Without the `-l`, I guess this might be expected.
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12:02<somiaj>vv221: what is your PYTHONPATH set to in your main enviorment?
12:02<vv221>I’ll run some tests replacing `chroot` with `chroot sh -l`, see if it helps on this front.
12:02<vv221>somiaj, to an ugly mess ;P
12:02<vv222[BI]>somiaj:
12:02<vv222[BI]>PYTHONPATH=:/usr/lib/python37.zip:/usr/lib/python3.7:/usr/lib/python3.7/lib-dynload:/home/antoine/.local/lib/python3.7/site-packages:/usr/local/lib/python3.7/dist-packages:/usr/lib/python3/dist-packages:/home/antoine/dev/weboob.git:/home/antoine/dev/metapi.git/metapi:/home/antoine/dev/backend.git:/usr/lib/python37.zip:/usr/lib/python3.7:/usr/lib/python3.7/lib-dynload:/home/antoine/.local/lib/pyt
12:02<vv222[BI]>hon3.7/site-packages:/usr/local/lib/python3.7/dist-packages:/usr/lib/python3/dist-packages:/home/antoine/dev/weboob.git:/home/antoine/dev/metapi.git/metapi:/home/antoine/dev/backend.git
12:03<vv221>(does not even fit in a single IRC message)
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12:03<somiaj>that is a mess, I guess I haven't done enough python to need to set it up so crazy, any reason it is setup like that? Maybe just use virtual enviroments instead?
12:03<vv221>I should clean that up, I think it is mostly remnants from an old fight against pip/venv.
12:03<ydbi>What does this mean "No package is allowed to install files in /usr/lib64/" as part of the new debian 4.6.0 policy?
12:04<somiaj>also has a lot of of strange things like, /usr/lib/python37.zip, you can use a .zip as a directory?
12:04<vv221>I think I remember copying that from the fallback value of PYTHONPATH when it is unset.
12:05<vv221>Hmm, I see it is duplicated by the way…
12:05<vv221>Well, don’t bother too much with that, I’ll clean that when I have some time ;)
12:06<somiaj>ydbi: I think they want to move things to /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/
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12:06<somiaj>ydbi: similar /usr/lib/i386-linux-gnu, to allow for a more general naming scheme
12:07<somiaj>vv221: must be reading your .bashrc (or whatever shell you use) twice
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12:07<ydbi>hmm, so does that apply similarly to /usr/lib32/ then?
12:07<somiaj>ydbi: I would assume so, except for a single link in /usr/lib64, both those directories are empty on my system.
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12:08<ydbi>it's the same for me, and apt-file search usr/lib64 finds nothing anyway
12:08<somiaj>ydbi: I think this also allows for other arches like arm, and so forth, because lib64 might be vague
12:08<ydbi>so I am puzzled by what that policy is about
12:08<vv221>somiaj, this work laptop has a ~18 days uptime, a lot of things could have happened to this env var during that time ;)
12:09<vv221>(looks like it deserves a real shutdown for the week-end)
12:09<somiaj>I think those are just old standards, and the policy is just saying to not use them anymore, this allows both lintian and bugs to be filed against packages that put stuff there to flag moving things to correct places
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12:10<ydbi>so it is just putting in writing what is already the practice? That's fine then.
12:11<somiaj>with the number of packages in debian, such things are needed when changing standards/policy
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12:14<vv221>It’s a good thing that Debian policy is starting to enforce the use of these paths. I hope other distributions will follow at some point.
12:14<vv221>I was getting tired of seemingly random paths for shared libraries…
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12:19<tepozoa>can someone help me understand where version 20.4 of cloud-init in D11 is coming from? Even salsa shows 20.2 https://tracker.debian.org/pkg/cloud-init -> https://salsa.debian.org/cloud-team/cloud-init/-/tree/master/debian
12:19<tepozoa>and github->Canonical
12:19<somiaj>,v cloud-init
12:19<judd>Package: cloud-init on amd64 -- stretch: 0.7.9-2; buster-backports: 20.2-2~bpo10+1; buster: 20.2-2~deb10u2; bullseye: 20.4.1-2; bookworm: 21.2-1; sid: 21.2-1
12:20<tepozoa>problem: a D11 instance using the same exact payload is failing to instantiate the IPv6, but works perfectly on D10
12:20<tepozoa>"cloud-init init" shows that it's failing to "see" it
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12:21<tepozoa>judd: I mean where does the /source/ come from
12:21<judd>No package named 'mean' was found in bullseye/amd64.
12:21<somiaj>tepozoa: you seem to be in the right place, https://salsa.debian.org/cloud-team/cloud-init/-/tree/bullseye
12:21*tepozoa nods
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12:59<madeye>Hey, I am on debian 11 gnome, and I can't get alt+tab to switch windows. Somehow all alt shortcuts don't execute :/ any idea how I could troubleshoot it? or maybe even a solution to that issue
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13:20<po>Hello, World!
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13:21<po>I am needing some advice for my debian buster install
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13:24<po>@afx237 Hello
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13:24<madeye>!ask
13:24<dpkg>If you have a question, just ask! For example: "I have a problem with ___; I'm running Debian version ___. When I try to do ___ I get the following output ___. I expected it to do ___." Don't ask if you can ask, if anyone uses it, or pick one person to ask. We're all volunteers; make it easy for us to help you. If you don't get an answer try a few hours later or on https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/ See <smart questions><errors>.
13:25<po>Okay,
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13:26<po>I recently installed debian buster as a dual boot with my windows 10. When i boot into it there is no GUI, i can only access the tty* terminals. I've been searching for the past week and have not prevailed. Any suggestions?
13:27<madeye>did you install a gui?
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13:28<po>Yes,
13:29<po>could my uefi's tmp modual or missing firmware be the reason?
13:29<madeye>what gpu do you have?
13:30<po>amd radeon
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13:30<po>I am running an hp laptop
13:30<madeye>did you install the firmware?
13:32<Sqrt{not}>po can you run a command on the tty as root?
13:33<po>Yes
13:33<Sqrt{not}>do this as root: dmesg | grep -i firmware
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13:33<po>I've looked up quite a bit of firmware, i still need to get the offical ones from the factory site.
13:33<amacater>po: Can I respectfully suggest you try installing with Bullseye now that it's stable. The new kernel and newer firmware may well support your graphics card better than buster at this stage. If you can use the unofficial firmware .iso, the firmware install routine has become much better. "Black screen" is sone of the things that has been improved by Bullseye
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13:34<po>Okay, Awesome! Thanks,
13:34<amacater>It doe depend how new the laptop is - if it's significantly newer than 2018/2019 you may well be better with Bullseye
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13:35<Sqrt{not}>po, you can probably get most firmware in debian, only the newest newest might need to come from the factory
13:35<Sqrt{not}>po, amacater advice is very good! do that if you can.
13:36<Sqrt{not}>here is a link to the network installer for bullseye, with firmware: https://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/unofficial/non-free/cd-including-firmware/11.0.0+nonfree/amd64/iso-cd/firmware-11.0.0-amd64-netinst.iso
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13:59<ham5urg_>I have a weird problem, my m.2 ssd disk is shown by the EFI-system. Grub got loaded and Grub loads the kernel. But the kernel can't load the intird. Further if I boot via some installation-iso via usb-stick, the HD is not shown up. I run the EFI-check / SMART check, without failure. What can cause my problem?
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14:04<sussudio>ham5urg_: https://tekbyte.net/2020/fixing-nvme-ssd-problems-on-linux/ ?
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14:08<nicholas>Over the past 1-3 days, I've started having trouble with logging in. Sometimes entering password (whether to lightdm or getty/console login) just hangs. I'm not sure where to look for a known issue or how to debug it.
14:09<sussudio>nicholas: check your logs.
14:10<nicholas>can i check logs from previous boot?
14:10<sussudio>they should still be there
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14:11<nicholas>also-- i only just read the channel message saying that testing/unstable should go to #debian-next. I'm on unstable, I'll take my issue there, sorry for the noise.
14:11<sussudio>ok.
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14:34<ham5urg_>sussudio, will try.
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14:59<tepozoa>^ on the above, after a bunch of debugging somehow on our D11 instance we have /etc/network/if-pre-up.d/cloud_inet6 and this broke/breaks cloud-init from bringing the static ipv6 IP online
14:59<tepozoa>I have no hits from dpkg, does anyone recognize that filename?
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15:01<Habbie>tepozoa, who made the image?
15:01<tepozoa>it's ours, but we didn't add this
15:01<tepozoa>it's not in D10
15:02<Habbie>ah
15:02<tepozoa>https://bugs.launchpad.net/cloud-init/+bug/1863773 I think it's cloud-init again
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15:08<sarnold>hah, that bug links to the debian wiki .. https://wiki.debian.org/Amazon/EC2/FAQ -> https://github.com/andsens/ec2debian-build-ami dead, replaced by https://github.com/andsens/build-debian-cloud dead, replaced by https://github.com/andsens/bootstrap-vz dead, no notes about a replacement
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15:08<tepozoa>I just found a lintian hit that says they were in this package: https://tracker.debian.org/pkg/debian-cloud-images
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15:10<tepozoa>https://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/cloud/bullseye/latest/debian-11-genericcloud-amd64.qcow2 <- my build guy got the image from there
15:11<tepozoa>where can we peek inside to see if this old trash is still in there by mistake?
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15:11<tepozoa>debian-cloud-images is in Buster at 0.0.1, these files breaking things appear to have come from the 0.0.4 testing package
15:12<sarnold>tepozoa: note the .json file right next to it, it's got a list of packages used in building the image
15:13<sarnold>tepozoa: that's short and sweet and might have the breadcrumbs you need; if not, you can download the qcow2 file, qemu-img convert the thing, and mount it or maybe try binwalk or ghidra or bsdtar or something on it
15:14<ham5urg_>My nvme ssd disappeared.The efi shows it (smart check success), grub loads the kernel, but the kernel does not load the initrd. I booted a usb-stick with nvme_core.default_ps_max_latency_us=0 but the hd does not shows up: ug 20 19:00:52 localhost kernel: [ 0.000000] Command line: BOOT_IMAGE=/live/vmlinuz boot=live nvme_core.default_ps_max_latency_us=0 username=devuan toram
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15:14<ham5urg_>Is there a log entry I could look for?
15:18<scorpion2185[m]>how do I delay a command for 5 sec?
15:18<sussudio>sleep 5
15:19<scorpion2185[m]>I tried that
15:19<scorpion2185[m]>sleep 5 xset dpms force off sleep: invalid time interval ‘xset’
15:20<Tenkawa>sleep 5 ;xset dpms force off
15:20<Tenkawa>you need to make it 2 commands
15:23<ddsys>ham5urg_: did you put nvme_core.default... into grub install rather than the usb stick?
15:24<scorpion2185[m]>can I set the number of kernels that will be kept?
15:25<tepozoa>sarnold: https://paste.debian.net/1208377/ those files are in the qcow2, yessiree bob
15:26<tepozoa>I don't know how, but they are in there
15:26<tylerchambers>what's the future of i386 look like in the world of debian? I'm aware buster is LTS and supports i386
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15:27<ham5urg_>ddsys, no, I put it manually into the grub menuentry at boot time / inside the boot menu
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15:27<sarnold>tepozoa: aha, handy :)
15:27<ddsys>ok
15:28<amacater>tylerchambers: Still supported in Bullseye at the moment - but I wouldn't bank on it being here for Bookworm release - very few machines are now 32 bit only and people have been throwing away 64 bit machines for a while
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15:29<vv221>amacater, do you mean for install media, or do you suspect a total removal of i386 support?
15:30<tylerchambers>amacater: right. Mostly just concerned with being able to get 32bit libs. Ubuntu dropping 32 bit support has made some folks at work a bit nervous lol
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15:32<navid>hey guys
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15:34<amacater>tylerchambers: 32 bit - it's dead Jim - it is on borrowed time which is why Ubuntu has removed it, I think. Even if Debian eventually removes 32 bit install media for Bookworm, it's likely we'll keep a few i386 libraries in case of things like steam
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15:34<tuxd3v>hello guys
15:34<amacater>But anybody relying on 32 bit only hardware is basically looking at 15 year old machines
15:35<navid>hi
15:35<tuxd3v>I am trying to understand the systemd monster
15:35<navid>trying to what?
15:35<navid>\
15:36<tuxd3v>shouldn´ t any unit have a 3 sections, in square brackets?
15:36<Tenkawa>amacater: there are other architectures (armel) that will have to continue to support 32 bit for years to come.
15:36<tuxd3v>[unit];[Unit-type];[Install]
15:36<vv221>amacater, I highly doubt most of 32-bit usage is on 32-bit hardware ;)
15:36<amacater>vv221 - I suspect the release team for Bookworm will need to make a decision soon-ish about release architectures to concentrate on.
15:36<amacater>arm32 != intel compatible 32 bit
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15:37<amacater>And armel similarly has old hardware ...
15:37<Tenkawa>amacater: doesn't matter… still 32 bit and still debian's concern
15:37<sarnold>tuxd3v: I've got some service files without an [Install] section
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15:37<amacater>but i386 was what was raised
15:37<Tenkawa>amacater: its not old hardware.. its less than a year old broadcom arm hardware being supported for 5 more years
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15:38<ddsys>ham5urg_: what brand SSD do you have?
15:38<ansgar>Tenkawa: armel was dropped from Debian years ago.
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15:38<amacater>Still making armel and not armhf? Apart from things like Pi Zero, that seems odd
15:38<tuxd3v>sarnold, yeah, and I am loking at 'network.target' and it only has a [Unit] section :/
15:39<ansgar>Tenkawa: Ah, oh no, that was arm. But I'm not sure armel will stay that much longer either given there is also armhf.
15:39<Tenkawa>ansgar: not from the Debian and RPI Foundation partnership it wasn't
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15:40<Tenkawa>amacater: it is a hybrid armhf
15:40<amacater>Tenkawa - Raspberry Pi is its own beast - and was incompatible from the outset as arm6 hardware floating point and not arm7
15:40<amacater>But anything after Pi2 is armhf / arm64
15:40<Tenkawa>exactly. but it still relies on Debian's codebase
15:40<ham5urg_>ddsys, https://www.amazon.com/Hynix-256GB-PC611-HFS256GD9TNI-Solid/dp/B08K7JBQMW
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15:40<amacater>Someone else's problem - Raspberry Pi OS is a derivative and does it's own thing.
15:41<amacater>!Raspberry
15:41<dpkg>The Raspberry Pi is based on a Broadcom system-on-a-chip, requiring <non-free> <firmware>. Debian's <armel> port works fine, but does not use the Pi's hardware floating point unit. Debian's <armhf> port targets a newer revision of the ARM chip than is in the Pi, so armhf will not work on it. http://wiki.debian.org/RaspberryPi http://www.raspberrypi.org/ #debian-raspberrypi on OFTC #raspberrypi on irc.libera.chat.
15:41<tuxd3v>amacater, but armv6 also has cpus with Floating point unit
15:41<Tenkawa>they didn't fork anything but the kernel in total.. even RPIOS is still beta for 64 bit
15:41<amacater>Note: Incompatible from the outset with every other vendor's Linux decisiion.
15:41<jkc>I just run Debian on my RPis.
15:41<ddsys>ham5urg_: i have SK Hynix too. anyway try nvme_core.default_ps_max_latency_us=5500 in grub
15:41<amacater>Meh - 64 bit Debian works fine on Pi3, Pi4
15:41<jkc>^
15:42<Tenkawa>jkc: same… foundation kernel, debian userland
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15:42<tuxd3v>simply the base armv6 doesn´t force the fpu, its optional
15:42<Tenkawa>best of both worlds
15:42<jkc>Tenkawa: No, I just run flat Debian.
15:43<Tenkawa>jkc: I need the overlay support, etc
15:43<amacater>tuxd3v: Someone else's problem - honestly. RPi Foundation forked Raspbian. While Debian still has armel, you can run Debian without problem http://raspi.debian.net
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15:44<Tenkawa>on to an actual bullseye q.. is there a mirror status page for the sites nowadays or not? I can't remember
15:45<amacater>If you want straightforward Debian on RPi4 - http://flosslinuxblog.blogspot.com/2021/08/vanilla-debian-on-raspberry-pi-4-with.html which is how I did it.
15:45<amacater>Tenkawa: _maybe_? Though a lot of installs are just using the CDN at deb.debian.org
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15:46<Tenkawa>I've seen a few updating out of sync errors in the last day or two with one of the mirrors and wanted to know if there was just a web status view
15:46<Tenkawa>amacater: not looking for a roundrobin
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15:46<Tenkawa>looking for a status page
15:46<amacater>Tenkawa: Where are you based?
15:46<ansgar>Tenkawa: Like https://mirror-master.debian.org/status/mirror-status.html?
15:46<Tenkawa>ansgar: let me take a look
15:47<Tenkawa>ansgar: perfect… thank you
15:47<amacater>which is what Google gave me for Debian mirrors status page
15:48<amacater>deb.debian.org attempts to geolocate you, I think, and bounce you to nearest mirror
15:48<Tenkawa>I know this too
15:49<Tenkawa>amacater: I have been using debian longer than most
15:49<Tenkawa>this is not news to me
15:50<Tenkawa>but I "have" lost a lot of my bookmarks heheh
15:50<ansgar>amacater: No, that geolocate and redirect thing was httpredir.d.o (which does no longer exist). deb.d.o uses a commercial CDN network.
15:50<tuxd3v>ho.. I just dicovered that 11 *.target unit files have a [Install] section, but the majority don´t :/
15:50<amacater>ansgar: Thanks for the correction :)
15:50<Tenkawa>ansgar: I thought deb.debian.org did too actually
15:50<Tenkawa>it seems to here
15:51<Tenkawa>I consistently get regional sites
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15:51<jhujhiti>yeah that's what a CDN does
15:51<Tenkawa>(mind you they've been running behind)
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15:58<tuxd3v>sarnold, Humm, maybe the [Install] section is only needed if you create the service in '/etc/systemd/system/' ?
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15:58<grawity>no
15:58<grawity>it's only needed if the unit is something that you intend admins to `systemctl enable`
15:59<grawity>and a lot of targets aren't meant to be used that way – they're meant to be pulled in by the specific services that provide or rely on them
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15:59<tuxd3v>grawity, ho, thanks
16:00<tuxd3v>but to do 'systemctl enable' your service needs to be in '/etc/systemd/system/', I believe
16:00<grawity>as opposed to?
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16:00<tuxd3v>in there any other way, were you can activate a service without 'systemctl enable'?
16:00<grawity>manually or?
16:00<grawity>I mean you can always start it manually
16:00<tuxd3v>manually?
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16:01<tuxd3v>'systemctl enable' is manually too :D
16:01<grawity>okay what do you mean by "activate" then?
16:01<imMute>tuxd3v: enable doesn't start the service, it sets up depedencies defined in the [Install] section.
16:01<imMute>tuxd3v: which generally translates to "start this service on boot"
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16:03<tuxd3v>ho I got it
16:03<tuxd3v>grawity, I mean to start a service, you need to do always a systemctl start service right?
16:03<tuxd3v>but I believe for that to hapen you need to have the service installed..confuse :/
16:04<imMute>"installing" a service is as simple as dropping the .service file in one of the 3 locations where systemd looks for them.
16:04<grawity>no, that's almost never a requirement
16:04<grawity>there are veeery few exceptions, like how enabling mariadb.service creates a mysqld.service *alias* (if I recall correctly)...
16:05<grawity>but in general, no, you do not need to 'enable' a service before starting it
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16:05<grawity>you can just always systemctl start it whenever
16:05<tuxd3v>you can start services without installing them?
16:05<tuxd3v>grawity, thanks :)
16:05<imMute>tuxd3v: what do you mean by "install" ?
16:06<tuxd3v>imMute, create the symbolic link to /usr/lib/systemd/system/
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16:06<imMute>where does this symbolic link live?
16:07<imMute>(FWIW, I know the answers, I'm just leading you down a path of discovery)
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16:08<tepozoa>https://salsa.debian.org/cloud-team/debian-cloud-images/-/commit/1f67aed136b797f7a496717d2a08e384fe804f0c <- our problem was fixed 4 days ago, just not deployed to new cloud images yet
16:09<tuxd3v>yopu put the service in '/run/systemd/'?
16:09<tuxd3v>I mean the symbolic link
16:10<sarnold>you don't usually do those things by hand
16:10<grawity>no – units in /usr/lib already have the same rights as those in /etc or /run, both work the same way
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16:11<imMute>tuxd3v: I suggest you read https://www.freedesktop.org/software/systemd/man/systemd.unit.html especially the "Unit File Load Path" and "[Install] Section Options" sections.
16:11<grawity>and most [Install] sections don't even create symlinks there
16:11<Guest4930>hello
16:11<grawity>they create symlinks *in a .wants subdirectory*
16:11<grawity>which does something entirely different
16:11<Tenkawa>this page is a good read still right? : https://wiki.debian.org/systemd/Services
16:11<mason>tuxd3v: And remember, masking via symlink to /dev/null and via empty file have different behaviours depending on the environment. \o/
16:11<Sqrt{not}>hi Cosmic, Guest4930
16:12<Guest4930>i have a doubt about debian, how can i get the fastest non-free software mirrors in my country?
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16:13<imMute>Tenkawa: I would treat it as a collection of the important bits, and look up those pieces in the link I posted for the full explanation.
16:13<sarnold>tuxd3v: this is pretty old, but it's a pretty decent series of blog posts about using systemd; I find it provides a lot of the context that is missing from the reference documentation http://0pointer.de/blog/projects/systemd-for-admins-1.html
16:13<tepozoa>Guest4930: https://www.debian.org/mirror/list <- pick one or two from your country and hard code them in your sources.list
16:13<Tenkawa>imMute: ok wasn't sure if that was good starting point for him or not.. I can write these in my sleep
16:14<imMute>Tenkawa: I second what sarnold said about the 0pointer blog. It's written by the primary author of systemd and is a great resource from a sysadmin perspective
16:15<Tenkawa>tuxd3v: hey.. you the tuxd3v I know?
16:15<tuxd3v>yeah, this is more complicated than what I thought :/
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16:16<tuxd3v>I am reading since yesterday about it..
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16:37<grove>Guest4930: Unless yo live in a *very* small country, with a very centralised internet infrastructure, what is fastest in one place might not be the fastest in another place (in the same country), so your wish doesn't make much sense. In general the only way to determine the fastest mirror from any point is to download the same file from all of the possibilities and compare, and even tat really ...
16:37<grove>... only tells you which mirror was the fastest for that file at that point in time, things might change before you have to download anything else
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16:39<grove>I think there once was a tool to compare debian mirrors by doing something like thta. I don't know if it is maintained anymore or how it felt about mirrors of non-free
16:40<imMute>grove: mirrors aren't supposed to treat main/contrib/non-free differently
16:44<Guest4930>grove what i am trying to say, is that i want to find a mirror on my country
16:44<amacater>grove: The one exception is security.debian.org - mirrors of that are massively discouraged: there can be only one.
16:44<amacater>Guest4930 - where are you?
16:44<Guest4930>Brazil
16:45<amacater>https://www.debian.org/mirror/list
16:45<Guest4930>thank you
16:46<amacater>No problem - there is usually one top level mirror address per country - ftp.br.debian.org for example
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16:47<amacater>You will have to work out for yourself which one of the other mirrors is closest to you on the network.
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16:48<amacater>Also: https://mirror-master.debian.org/status/mirror-status.html
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16:55<tuxd3v>my console-setup.service is not running well:
16:55<tuxd3v>https://paste.debian.net/hidden/37e03043/
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16:56<tuxd3v>ho, I believe I need to be in real console for that right?
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17:03<Typhome>Hello! I have question about swap space: https://www.reddit.com/r/debian/comments/p8doj3/swap_space/ Debian Wiki suggests double of RAM, but that's 128GB swap space (64GB DDR4 installed) and it would take ~25% SSD disk space (512GB SSD NVMe). No hibernation, dedicated server runs 24/7. Thanks for help.
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17:07<imMute>Typhome: personally, I'd limit to 2-4GB of swap space, or none at all
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17:14<banym>Typhome, depends on what you do. but i personally don
17:14<banym>dont use swap anymore and go with small swap partition
17:17<Typhome>I'm planning to run web server and few Minecraft gameservers (last ones will consume at least half RAM) on that dedicated server
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17:35<fernie>id make 8GB swap or so and add swap file(s) if really need arises and free space available
17:36<somiaj>For a server I suggest using swap, the amount you need depends on what you are doing. The 'double ram' is mostly for machines that you want to hibernate, maybe a few gigs would be nice, 4-8, though the 2-4 might work.
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17:43<Tj>double RAM is a leftover from the 2GiB RAM days I think; for hibernation support it rarely needs more than 1.2X RAM (since hibernate image only stores used pages, and does compression)
17:44<Tj>any cache or buffer pages are flushed before hibernation
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17:44<TobiX>Typhome: Where does Wiki say "double"?
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17:45<TobiX>Ah, I see.
17:45<Typhome>I was reading that page: https://wiki.debian.org/Swap
17:45<TobiX>That sentence just need to vanish
17:46<TobiX>It's never good advice nowadays
17:46<TobiX>!swap
17:46<dpkg>Swap is RAM you wish you had. Generally it is said that for low amounts of RAM (say, less than 2GB), you should have twice the RAM as swap. You don't have to have a swap partition either, as you can always create a <swap file> and use that. See also <am i swapping>. http://wiki.debian.org/Swap http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swap_space#Linux
17:47<TobiX>I'd suggest 1-2GB, except if you want to use hibernate, then you should have as much as system RAM, so you have anough space to write hibernation data
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17:49<TobiX>If you server is swapping hard, either get rid of the "misbehaving" software or put more RAM into the machine ;)
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17:51<TobiX>Typhome: If you really want to know more about swap, read the blor or watch the presentations of kernel developers much smarter then me: https://chrisdown.name/2018/01/02/in-defence-of-swap.html
17:51<TobiX>s/blor/blog/
17:51<TobiX>I should go to bed, I'm typospamming :D
17:52<r4fkramer>Hi all. Please, recently I read the following comment about Debian: "The Swap partition on linux is only made for HDs if you are going to use debian on an SSD you have to disable it otherwise it will spoil "
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17:52<TobiX>r4fkramer: That a stupid extreme as well
17:52<r4fkramer>Please, does it make sense ? I thought it a strange comment....
17:53<TobiX>The truth is somewhere in the middle
17:53<r4fkramer>Thanks for answering TobiX. So, my suspicious was right....
17:53<r4fkramer>You meant: in the middle ?
17:54<mason>r4fkramer: I run mirrored SSDs on my laptop, and I have yet to have one fail a couple years after installing them, and this includes having swap on them. Anecdotal, but it's convincing enough for me. :)
17:55<vv221>On the swap topic, I’m with TobiX. I usually set a 1GB swapfile (no dedicated partition) on all my systems, no matter the amount of RAM available.
17:55<vv221>Unless it is a system that will use hibernation, then I go with a swapfile the same size than the RAM.
17:55<TobiX>There are two extremes propagated regarding to swap: "You don't need swap if you have enough RAM/on a modern Linux system" and "You need swap double the size of RAM" - Both are extremes, both are wrong. The truth is somewhere in the middle
17:55<mason>r4fkramer: FWIW, this speaks to some SSD-specific tuning, but is otherwise just a good resource for understanding swap: https://chrisdown.name/2018/01/02/in-defence-of-swap.html
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17:56<r4fkramer>Fine mason, I thought this comment rather unsubstantiated as I have never heard anyone report that they had a broken SSD running debian just because there was a swap partition installed and configured on the Distro
17:57<TobiX>For a server I would start with ~1-2GB swap and if monitoring is pestering me with excessive swap usage, either add more RAM or if the swap-load is only some times, maybe just add a little more swap
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17:57<r4fkramer>Thank you for the link, mason. I'll read it now :)
17:57<vv221>Another tip: never follow the advice of someone telling you to tweak vm.swappiness value unless they are able to explain to you in details how vm.swappiness works.
17:57<vv221>(spoiler: they won’t)
17:57<TobiX>r4fkramer: First generation SSDs had very low write cycles and bad wear-leveling, so people were avoiding writes as much as possible, but those SSDs are long gone
17:57<mason>vv221: That link does.
17:58<vv221>mason, this link does not advise to divert from the default value ;)
17:58<r4fkramer>Please, TobiX, for a new debian bullseye installation - is 3 GB swap enough ?
17:58<vv221>(if it’s the one page I’m remembering)
17:58<TobiX>vv221: After reading that blog post I deleted swappiness configuration from all my ansible playbooks :D
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17:59<r4fkramer>vv221, yes. I don't believe in such comments or arguments, for they often are presented without any technical proof
17:59<TobiX>r4fkramer: Probably a resonable size.
18:00<r4fkramer>Should you use a larger size for swap, in the case of using debian as desktop OS ?
18:01<tepozoa>3 is plenty for an average system
18:01<r4fkramer>Fine, tepozoa, thank you for information :)
18:01<tepozoa>in general, you do not want to be using swap at all. Outside of the very specific internal use to the kernel for it, applications causing swap usage generally means you're out of RAM
18:01<TobiX>Currently, on my desktop system, there is 1MB of swap in use :D
18:01<tepozoa>and that's not good
18:02<vv221>Here I am using 1GB for a computer that, at the same time, is used as a desktop, a gaming machine, a server (including a GitLab instance), a build environment and a audio/video encoding system ;)
18:02<vv221>So I would say 3GB is much more than enough.
18:02<tepozoa>install the package "systat" and enable it to run at boot. This will help you minotor your memory use over time
18:02<vv221>*sysstat
18:03<vv221>(with the missing "s" included)
18:04<vv221>TobiX, there is almost 700MB of swap in use on my desktop… but I’m just out of a 0 A.D. build ;)
18:04<r4fkramer>tepozoa, fine, thank you for additional information. Yes, it must be avoided
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18:05<vv221>Keeping in mind that my RAM was not saturated at any time, swap can get used before that.
18:05<r4fkramer>TobiX, the same here. Now, I'm using 0 swap
18:05<tepozoa>r4fkramer: every once in awhile, examine the data with "sar -B" -- there are 3 major columns to watch: pgpgout/s, fault/s, majflt/s
18:06<vv221>r4fkramer, for the next couple days, check the swap usage right before powering off your computer. It should give you a rough idea of how much you actually need.
18:06<r4fkramer>vv221, 3 GB should be considered an exaggeration
18:06<vv221>(well, tepozoa tool might be better than what I suggest)
18:06<vv221>r4fkramer, in my opinion yes, unless you are a JavaScript Web developer ;P
18:07<tepozoa>r4fkramer: the first 2 names (columns) mentioned are how fast your system is dumping RAM (real RAM) to make room for more stuff. This is OK, it's just saying "hey, I could really use more RAM, but really if I throw things away I'm fine"
18:07<r4fkramer>vv221, I see. And, that's not my case - JavaScript Web Developer, lol
18:07<tepozoa>the last one, majflt/s ("major faults per second") is what really matters - that is actual swap use
18:07<tepozoa>you want that to be near 0
18:08<tepozoa>it means "everything in RAM was in use and could not be thrown away. So I need to push some of it to the side in a swap file to load more things"
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18:08<r4fkramer>tepozoa, I will perform some tests using this command 'sar -B', related to data examination. You said about 3 major columns....
18:09<r4fkramer>Command 'sar' not found, but there are 20 similar ones.
18:10<tepozoa>you must install and activate "sysstat"!
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18:10<tepozoa>and then wait for it to gather data first over time
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18:10<tepozoa>https://paste.debian.net/1208385/ <- quick example of data
18:11<tepozoa>https://www.thegeekdiary.com/how-to-view-past-performance-with-sar-in-linux/
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18:13<tepozoa>https://sarchart.dotsuresh.com/ <- a really cool online tool to visualize your sar data
18:15<tepozoa>a lot of the suggestions for making large swap date back 20 years to when we paid $200 for 4MB sticks of RAM
18:15<r4fkramer>Fine tepozoa, I saw your paste here.
18:15<tepozoa>way back then, we could not afford more real RAM so making big fat huge swap partitions and using them was what we did
18:16<tepozoa>on our 320MB IDE drives :)
18:16<tepozoa>my android has more hardware than my 1995 386
18:17<r4fkramer>Had you already used debian installed on a 320MB IDE drive in 1995 ?
18:17<tepozoa>I was a Red Hat guy back then
18:18<tepozoa>now I use them all for different purposes ;)
18:18<r4fkramer>Oh, fine. In terms of Linux, that's a long time ago :) A Linux veteran as I can see
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18:22<r4fkramer>tepozoa, thank you very much for the explanation and additional information. I will take all this information You have given me and install and activate 'sysstat' for these swap partition study purposes.
18:22<r4fkramer>Installing 'sysstat' here, and considering installing 'isag' suggested package too :)
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18:33<flowriser>Hello everyone! I am trying to install debian for the last 3+ hours. The normal install way (bootable usb) simply reboots at some point so that is a no go. What I am trying to do now is use debootstrap from my ubuntu install in order to install debian on its own partition from Ubuntu.
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18:35<booda>u should just be able to follow the gui installer
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18:35<flowriser>yeah that doesn't work unfortunately, it simply reboots; I tried that 10 times already.
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18:37<flowriser>I tried it with DE, without DE, with graphical install, without graphical install; it simply reboots at some point. I even tried updating the grub in hopes that it at least got to a usable state, but it reboots before it creates the users
18:37<flowriser>I made it to the point to edit the fstab file; I added the default partition and now I want to add the swap and /boot/efi partitions. The tutorial suggests bind mounting the dev from the host to the chrooted debian but implies that will not work in some cases. Anyone knows what side-effects that might have?
18:37<sarnold>you may have more success trying memtest86 or memtest86+
18:38<sarnold>none at all, really, bind mounts evaporate at the next reboot
18:40<flowriser>Doing this `sudo mount /dev /mnt/debinst/dev` results in `mount: /mnt/debinst/dev: /dev is not a block device.`
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18:41<sarnold>looks like you forgot an -obind or similar
18:43<flowriser>ah indeed, that was it
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18:45<flowriser>not sure if I should add the /boot/efi to the fstab of the chroot env; it just tels me that the mount point does not exist
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18:48<sarnold>flowriser: you probably should, having a /boot/efi is important to the proper working of scripts that manage booting on uefi systems. you'll need it post-install
18:48<flowriser>yeah, solved it by actually creating /boot/efi folder first then mounting
18:49<flowriser>haven't done chroot in a while; I appreciate your help :D
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18:56<booda>.
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18:59<Typhome>I don't mind creating large swap, but I would prefer to put it on HDD (not on SSD as it has a lot less space than HDD - 512GB SSD NVMe vs 2TB HDD). HDD is not primary disk (system boots from SSD). Is it possible to install Debian 10 without swap and then initialize & create partitions (with swap partition) on HDD?
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19:01<sarnold>Typhome: swap on hdd is going to be way more painful than swap on ssd should you actually need it for more than just a convenient place to stuff lightly-used data
19:02<sarnold>Typhome: you can probably convince the installer to install without swap, yeah
19:02<sney>the installer will let you install without swap, it will display a warning but let you proceed
19:03<sney>if you have a lot (>16GB) of physical memory, you can also try enabling zram or zswap, which puts swap in a compressed storage backed by ram. that way linux can swap as much as it wants but it doesn't end up on disk unless something is *very* wrong
19:05<Typhome>Dedicated server has 64GB DDR4 and 2x512GB NVMe (in Software RAID 1) + 1x2TB HDD. Installer by default wants to create 32GB swap space which is ~25% of SSD disk space
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19:11<sarnold>heh, yeah, the ubuntu installer once wanted to create a 128G swap partition on my 128G ssd just because I had 128G ram in the machine..
19:14<tepozoa>flowriser: https://wiki.debian.org/GrubEFIReinstall <- the list of bind mounts is in here in case you need it
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19:19<flowriser>tepozoa: thanks! Got that working. Now I'm trying to configure the network interfaces as per https://www.debian.org/releases/stable/i386/apds03.en.html
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19:19<flowriser>The problem is that ubuntu doesn't use the /etc/network/interfaces file and neither does debian I guess
19:20<flowriser>I will try skipping this and see where it goes
19:20<tepozoa>"it's complicated"
19:20<tepozoa>Canonical invented this new widget named Netplan
19:21<sarnold>flowriser: hmm I haven't heard anything about debian switching away from ifupdown.. it's probably still available to install. there's also an ifupdown2 which I hear is nice..
19:21<tepozoa>Debian does use /etc/network/interfaces still, it's called "ifupdown" as a solution
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19:22<tepozoa>flowriser: the format hasn't really changed in decades, just good for any random example and replace your info
19:22<tepozoa>*google
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19:25<baconicsynergy>bullseye is amazing, thank you everyone
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19:28<mason>flowriser: You can use ifupdown in Ubuntu. They even recently fixed a bug that interfered with its proper use.
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19:41<flowriser>well, it appears I installed everything; even the DE, will reboot into the new install now :D
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19:50<Typhome>Is separate boot partition required? Can I install without boot partition, so there would be only 2 partitions (swap and all)? For some reason installation image (provided by datacenter) includes /boot partition, but I can remove that line.
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20:02<dvs>Typhome: a separate boot partition is not required
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20:05<mason>Typhome: If you're talking about a line in fstab, then the partition already exists and you'll just be wasting space if you don't use it.
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20:10<Typhome>I'm still doing Debian 11 installation as I haven't decided what to set swap size...
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20:13<sarnold>one gigabyte is usually a safe bet
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20:14<dvs>Typhome: Make swap at least the size of RAM if you plan to use the suspend feature.
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20:15<sney>that's hibernate specifically, but I think this is a server anyway
20:15<Typhome>I'm not using that hibernate function as this dedicated server is going to run 24/7 without hibernation
20:17<Typhome>All places telling different swap sizes like double of RAM, atleast 4GB, or half RAM etc... I don't even know which one is right
20:18<sarnold>"double ram" was due to a bug about 25 years ago, feel free to ignore that one
20:18<at0m>here, it depends on the available RAM and the use for it
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20:19<sarnold>half ram is well-meaning, I can see the appeal of it, but if you're *really* 32 gigs into swap, you've probably got a very unhappy system and you would probably be better suited to have things OOM instead
20:19<dvs>double RAM was a bug???
20:19<sarnold>yeah
20:20<sney>Typhome: make sure to double check the dates on the docs you're reading. google (et al) don't really respect time and the difference between distro releases... I wouldn't bother citing anything older than 2018 or so
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20:20<at0m>couple of my machines i never use too much RAM so there i go without swap even. or just lower swappiness
20:20<Typhome>Well, Red Hat suggests half RAM which is 32GB (64/2), but Red Hat isn't Debian, is it?
20:20<sney>and the VM hypervisor in my house has 0 swap on disk, 1GB of swap in zram, and is very healthy.
20:21<sarnold>the kernel can make better decisions about memory if it has a place to put stuff that isn't used often / ever, but can't be thrown away. so a gig at least isn't a bad starting point. different people will measure different amounts of 'steady state' swap use because their workloads are different..
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20:21<sarnold>.. so your workload might indeed benefit from having four gigs rather than one gig of swap, or maybe it won't matter much one way or the other
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20:29<Typhome>If I start with like 4GB swap partition, would resizing swap partition be painless and possible to do without data loss?
20:29<sney>yes
20:29<sney>well, shrinking it would be painless. growing it may be a slight nuisance depending on where you're getting the extra space from
20:29<sney>but always without data loss,
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20:32<Typhome>like swap partition + boot partition + all partition. If I need more swap space, I would shrink all partition and then increase swap partition
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20:33<dvs>I wouldn't shrink the boot partition for that.
20:34<sney>since you're not hibernating, you can use swapfiles
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20:35<flowriser>Thanks everyone! After a bit of tweaking I managed to boot into my debootstrapped install
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20:37<Hash>How much memory do you have?
20:37<Hash>I have 64gb and I did not remembre creating any swap space
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20:40<Typhome>64GB DDR4
20:42<jhutchins>That's ridiculous. There's no way the IO system canhandle 64G of swap without swamping the comuter.
20:42<Hash>Yeah, so if you have a lot of ram, you just need like minimal swap
20:42<Hash>like a minimal 512 mb or 1gb swap file will do just fine for a 64gb system
20:43<Hash>I have I think DDR3 maybe. I can't remember
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20:44<dvs>jhutchins: even with an NVMe?
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20:44<Hash>If you need 64gb of swap, you should probaby just by more ram
20:44<Hash>I think so.
20:45<Hash>buy*
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21:18<jhutchins>dvs: It really depends on your usage. If there is a reasonable chance you will spike to twice your ram on a rare basis, or if you're using suspend-to-ram then there's a reason for it.
21:19<jhutchins>dvs: Don't expect the system to be able to run as if it had 128G of ram.
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22:52-!-nuc_ is "realname" on #debian
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23:04-!-stsquad is "Alex Bennée" on #debian #debian-cross #xendevel #xen #virt #debian-xen #debian-next
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23:07-!-rcf is "rcf" on #voidlinux-ppc #dri-devel #panfrost #alpine-offtopic #alpine-linux #debian
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23:07-!-stsquad is "Alex Bennée" on #debian #debian-cross #xendevel #xen #virt #debian-xen #debian-next
23:08-!-mode/#debian [+l 964] by debhelper
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23:18-!-hele is "hele" on #debian-next #debian
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23:20-!-MjrWingnut is "Collin Robinson" on #debian
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23:23-!-srikavin is "Srikavin Ramkumar" on #debian #C
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23:30-!-richard_h is "purple" on #debian
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23:32-!-bebop is "sig_9" on #debian-next #debian
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23:32-!-secntech is "tp" on #tor-project #suckless #redditprivacy #Qubes_OS #privacytech #freedombox #debian #cryptoparty
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23:36-!-underachiever is "¯\_(ツ)_/¯" on #oftc #debian @#bollocks
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23:42-!-newtons is "newtons" on #debian
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23:44-!-pranith is "realname" on #linux-rt #kernelnewbies #llvm #debian
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23:55-!-qwer is "qwer" on #vectorlinux #Corsair #debian-boinc #debian-gaming #debian-hamchat #linuxfriends #linux-storage #openttd.notice #retroshare #debian
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23:58-!-factoreal is "factoreal" on #debian
23:59-!-factoreal is now known as Guest4957
---Logclosed Sat Aug 21 00:00:03 2021