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#debian IRC Logs for 2021-08-27

---Logopened Fri Aug 27 00:00:12 2021
00:00<nicolas17>oh duh, I ran upgrade, not dist-upgrade, there's still a bunch more outdated packages :D
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01:06<ripspin>I have upgraded my HD (duplicated HD to a bigger one) now I can not login, the login passwd does work, where are the passwds stored?
01:07<grove>Unless you use some NIS/LDAP/... sthe paswords are stred in /etc/shaow
01:07<ripspin>it doesn't have one
01:08<grove>s/stred/stored/ and s/shaow/shadow/
01:08<nicolas17>how did you do the "duplication"?
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01:09<ripspin>I added bedrock on top and it ant got etc/passwd and etc/shadow
01:10<ripspin>rsync for the duplication
01:10<nicolas17>did you run rsync as root?
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01:10<dpkg>Bedrock linux is a "meta distribution" that claims the ability to mix and match components from different linux distros in a single system. It is not supported in #debian even if you happen to be using a debian stratum. Support is available from See also <frankendebian>.
01:11<ripspin>The bedrock at the start is OK, then It goes to the debian login
01:13<ripspin>I added bedrock on top and it ant got etc/passwd and etc/shadow in the debian stratum
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02:23<FH_thecat>I am building a debian package:
02:23<FH_thecat>dpkg-buildpackage --build=binary --no-sign
02:24<FH_thecat>how can I build it without documentation ?
02:24<FH_thecat>so that I don't need to install the dependent packages such as: docbook-xml docbook-xsl
02:29<somiaj>FH_thecat: depends, if there is a ./configure flag that allows you to do this, you can just modify the debian/rules script to include that.
02:29<somiaj>If the software doens't allow you to do this, you'll have to patch it
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03:01<FH_thecat>somiaj: the package in question is "mutt"
03:01<FH_thecat>the debian/rules file is relatively simple
03:02<FH_thecat>but I don't see any obvious place that needs changing
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03:04<jm_>the .dsc fails has build dependencies, but removing them won't work if configure is not prepared for missing tools
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03:12<somiaj>FH_thecat: is there no configure override?
03:13<somiaj>FH_thecat: look at dh_auto_configure, you can change the configure flags with that part of the debian/rules
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03:14<somiaj>FH_thecat: it appears that mutt has a --disable-doc and --disable-full-doc ./configure options you can add to the configure override
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03:26<FH_thecat>somiaj: thank you, using --disable-doc and --disable-full-doc works
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03:30<FH_thecat>I did have ro remove few references to the docs from the rules files
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03:43<aleksej>Hi. I'm experiencing a memory leak when using GNOME Shell on Xorg: every action adds to X-server's RSS a few hundred kB, and in ~3 days it reached 620+ MB. Does anyone have a similar issue?
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03:50<scorpion2185[m]>I have 3 encrypted partitions , why does it ask the passowrd twice? same for all
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04:28<jmiller>debian bullseye is so fast
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04:49<RoyK>,v mongodb
04:49<judd>Package: mongodb on amd64 -- stretch: 1:3.2.11-2+deb9u1
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04:51<peej>I did an apt-get install libjs-pdf and the symlink for one of its files is missing a final destination (compatibility.js) -- is that a bug?
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04:53<peej>ah, indeed:
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04:53<judd>Bug in libjs-pdf (open): «libjs-pdf: several broken symlinks»; severity: normal; opened: 2021-05-19; last modified: 2021-05-19.
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05:05<sbn>Hey guys, yesterday I upgraded my stretch to buster release, the `apt full-upgrade` went fine. But after rebooting it I get stuck in "grub rescue" mode. With `error: symbol 'grub_calloc' not found`. I tried setting the prefix in the grub rescue mode to the grub directory I can see (when I do ls to see the partitions of the disk), but after doing insmod linux it still show that the symbol not found
05:05<sbn>I am currently making an live usb so I can do a grub2 install, but is there an other way to go about it?
05:06<jm_>not really, some live usb or d-i will do
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05:07<sbn>did stretch use grub1 and buster grub2 or how come I am experiencing this?
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05:08<jm_>they both use grub 2
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05:11<FelixActually>I'd like to install /usr on a separate partition from my root directory. Apparently I need a custom initramfs for this which will load it before init. I don't know what that means; please can someone explain to me in simple terms what I need to do?
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05:13<peej>my workaround for libjs-pdf symlink missing a final destination (compatibility.js) is to install it from jessie. Is that a Bad Thing to do? Works for me as far as I can tell.
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05:26<sbn>When I try to do `grub-ionstall /dev/sda1` (which is the boot partition), I get `grub-install.real: error: failed to get canonical path of `aufs'.`
05:26<sbn>Maybe I should make a buster live usb
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05:31<jm_>you sure you want to install it to /dev/sda1?
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05:34<sbn>Well, no not really. I personally think grub is in a messed up state because I use a LVM
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05:37<jm_>try booting from d-i in rescue mode and install grub from that
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05:42<sbn>what do you mean by `d-i` ?
05:42<koollman>debian installer
05:42<dpkg>To reinstall <GRUB> boot to your Debian install disk/live CD, switch to the other console (Alt-F2), mount your root filesystem (mount -t ext4 /dev/whatever /target ; mount --bind /dev /target/dev ; mount -t proc none /target/proc ; mount -t sysfs none /target/sys), chroot into it (chroot /target), run "mount /boot/efi" on EFI and "update-grub && grub-install /dev/whatever". See also <rescue mode>, <dual boot guide>, <supergrub>.
05:43<jm_>ahh there's a separate factoid
05:44<erle->How do I know which files on the EFI partition have been installed by whom?
05:44<erle->I used to have Ubuntu and now have Debian and it looks like there are still files from Ubuntu
05:44<erle->but the dir is just called BOOT
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05:56<sbn>I see vmlinuz-*-amd64 & initrd.img files on my /dev/sda1/ disk
05:57<erle->sbn, looks like /boot
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06:00<sbn>`chroot /target`: failed to run command "/bin/bash": No such file or directory
06:03<RoyK>sbn: normally no bash on /boot, no ;)
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06:04<sbn>I am running from the debian live right now
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06:05<erle->sbn, you need to mount a few things before chrooting
06:05<erle->/dev /proc etc
06:05<sbn> (mount -t ext4 /dev/whatever /target ; mount --bind /dev /target/dev ; mount -t proc none /target/proc ; mount -t sysfs none /target/sys), <= I did exactly this but with /dev/sda1
06:05<sbn>they are mounted
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06:19<FelixActually> ← This page doesn't explain how to do the things it describes. I know how to verify the checksum, but how do I check the checksum files are correct using the .sign files?
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06:38<FelixActually>Please can someone help me? I need to know how to verify the checksum files using the .sign files to install Debian 11
06:39<sbn>doesn't the .sign file just contain the sha line per line?
06:39<FelixActually>No, that's the ones without the .sign extension
06:39<FelixActually>I already did that
06:40<FelixActually>Verifying the checksum of the ISO
06:40<FelixActually>Now I need to verify that the checksums are right too
06:40<depesz>FelixActually: what is in the file?
06:40<FelixActually>depesz: A PGP signature
06:41<sbn> <= you mean this right?
06:41<depesz>FelixActually: gpg --verify *.sign *.iso
06:41<depesz>or somerthing like this
06:41<FelixActually>I think that page should be updated to explain these things
06:42<FelixActually>In simple terms
06:42<FelixActually>So anyone can do it
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06:43<FelixActually>The command gpg --verify SHA256SUMS.sign SHA256SUMS and the same for the SHA512 file say "good signature", but also "this key is not certified with a trusted signature"
06:44<depesz>FelixActually: that's very likely - you probably never signed it.
06:45<depesz>whether you should is ... well, complicated.
06:45<FelixActually>What do you mean?
06:46<depesz>FelixActually: if I will send you a file, and a signature. gpg will tell you that the file was signed by key that has "Debian release team" in there. Because I made such key. Does that mean that you trust the key that it was used by Debian release team?
06:47<FelixActually>I don't know. I guess not?
06:48<depesz>FelixActually: that's why https uses certificate authority, and your browses trusts them (CAs) that they checked that if key says "it was created by CitiBank", that it really was made by CitiBank
06:48<depesz>gpg doesn't have centralized CAs. afaik.
06:49<depesz>I can make a key that will say it's key of "FelixActually".
06:49<FelixActually>Okay, but the verify Debian page has some key fingerprints listed, and one of them matches the two of the SHA256 and SHA512 fingerprints from these commands
06:49<FelixActually>So is that good?
06:49<depesz>amazing. but, theoretically, if bad hacker took over the site, they could replace isos, *and* show false checksums. and false key.
06:50<depesz>realistically, I don't bother checking gpg keys.
06:50<depesz>sha checksums are to make sure that the download didn't get corrupted on the way (random bit rot). and if sufficiently smart hacker would get the site, i'm hosed.
06:51<depesz>*BUT* gpg keys can be signed by others.
06:51<depesz>and, at least theoretically, you can trust them. of course this still leaves the question - if key "x" was signed by key named "Linus Torvalds" - was it really signed by Linus? Do you know?
06:51<depesz>with sufficient levels of paranoia - you can't know.
06:52<FelixActually>So what am I supposed to do?
06:52<depesz>that depends on your level of paranoia.
06:53<depesz>for me, as I said, i just check if sha sums are ok. to prevent file *damage* in transit.
06:54<FelixActually>Is it not possible to have a reasonable level of confidence that the ISO I downloaded is untampered with?
06:54<sbn>if the sha of the iso is correct, it should be reasonable to assume it's untampered
06:55<dpkg>To reinstall <GRUB> boot to your Debian install disk/live CD, switch to the other console (Alt-F2), mount your root filesystem (mount -t ext4 /dev/whatever /target ; mount --bind /dev /target/dev ; mount -t proc none /target/proc ; mount -t sysfs none /target/sys), chroot into it (chroot /target), run "mount /boot/efi" on EFI and "update-grub && grub-install /dev/whatever". See also <rescue mode>, <dual boot guide>, <supergrub>.
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06:56<FelixActually>What does this mean though: "The keys used for these signatures are all in the Debian GPG keyring and the best way to check them is to use that keyring to validate via the web of trust. "
06:57<FelixActually>First of all I want to know how to do this, but second I think the page should be rewritten to explain how to do what it says to do
06:57<FelixActually>Because currently, it just says "do these things" without explaining how
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07:04<depesz>FelixActually: if you don't grok GPG, then it is VERY unlikely to do you any good. sorry.
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07:05<sbn>ok so I managed to chroot into the root file system, I am executing `update-grub` but it is taking several minutes already
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07:06<FelixActually>depesz: Why wouldn't it do me any good then?
07:08<Guest5565>What are the commands to update the OS in console window?
07:08<sbn>Guest5565: sudo apt update && sudo apt upgrade
07:08<Guest5565>Thank you
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07:09<depesz>FelixActually: (from my point of view): because if you don't grok gpg trust, then output of gpg --verify is 100% meaningless
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07:11<FelixActually>How come?
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07:18<FelixActually>depesz: I understand the output of --verify SHA256SUMS.sign SHA256SUMS
07:18<FelixActually>In the sense that it displays a key fingerprint which is also on the Debian website
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07:21<depesz>does it feel validated to you?
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07:22<FelixActually>I don't know
07:22<FelixActually>But what does "this key is not certified with a trusted signature" mean? How would I get one?
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07:25<depesz>FelixActually: you can sign it with your own key
07:25<depesz>FelixActually: what does "gpg --list-secret-keys" output?
07:25<FelixActually>Okay, let's go back a second here
07:25<depesz>really, and I mean really. I just don't have the hours to explain gpg. find gpg tutorial. then second. then read and understand the concept of web of trust.
07:26<depesz>sorry, my time is over.
07:26<FelixActually>What I'd like to know is what that verify page means by "The keys used for these signatures are all in the Debian GPG keyring and the best way to check them is to use that keyring to validate via the web of trust."
07:26<jkc>depesz: The hell is your problem?
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07:27<jkc>depesz: Based on this conversation, there are two people. FelixActually who is actually trying to understand things, and you, who are both a sarcastic ass and also apparently pretty lacking in knowledge on how gpg works or what it offers.
07:28<depesz>jkc: ? i don't have a problem. aside from the fact that I've been talking in here for 50 minutes.
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07:28<depesz>jkc: you are definitely welcome to take over the explanation. Given that I don't know gpg, it would be for the better.
07:28<sbn>omg, I finally managed to restore grub :o
07:29<jkc>FelixActually: So, okay. Let me ask this: if the Debian website says "the image will be signed by one of these keys," and that is in fact the case, does that offer you enough assurance *for you* that the image is legitimate?
07:29<sbn>it was a bit more complex fo rmy situation because of lvm2
07:29<jkc>FelixActually: Someone else's opinion of whether or not that's "good enough" doesn't mean much. Is it possible that the website was hacked? Sure. Is it likely? Of course not.
07:29<FelixActually>jkc: I don't know. I just want to do the thing it says about "validat[ing] via the web of trust" if that's possible and will give me a better idea of validity
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07:30<jkc>FelixActually: Let's step back a bit. What are you actually worried about?
07:30<jkc>And yes, that question has real bearing on a security discussion.
07:31<jkc>Because proper security is not "do all the things, check all the boxes."
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07:32<FelixActually>I suppose I'm worried about the SUMS files being tampered with
07:32<ham5urg>I'm trying too create a USB-drive to boot with BIOS or EFI computers. I did so in the past with RAID1/LVM SATA-drives which worked well (switching HDs between computers, changing orders of the HDs). But now I have a simple NVME-USB drive and I can't get it to boot an EFI computer. It boots on BIOS though. I did following commands: Something I miss I guess but I don't know. In
07:32<ham5urg>virt-manager (virtual EFI computer) as well on a real one I get very similar results. The virtual one just shows in a blink of an eye a "reset" and the real one shows a GRUB-like menu from which I can reset or wait 30 secs. for reset. Is there something I could try different?
07:33<jkc>FelixActually: Okay. And how likely is that, realistically?
07:33<FelixActually>I don't know
07:33<FelixActually>It's not likely I suppose, but isn't it better to try to verify that rather than blindly trusting?
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07:33<jkc>FelixActually: You can. That's why they're GPG signed, and the key that you should expect the signature from is published.
07:34<FelixActually>Do you mean the SUMS files are GPG signed?
07:34<jkc>See the SHA512SUMS link?
07:34<sbn>ok so I managed to boot, but now I am seeing "You are in emergency mode. after logging in, type journalctl -xb ...
07:34<sbn>Cannot open access to console, the root account is locked
07:35<FelixActually>jkc: What do you mean when you say "link"?
07:35<jkc>FelixActually: Where are you looking?
07:35<jkc>Because a link is a link. Hyperlink, if we really want to go digging into 1990s terminology.
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07:35<FelixActually>In the folder on my computer where I saved the debian-live-11.0.0-amd64-kde.iso, SHA256SUMS, SHA256SUMS.sign, SHA512SUMS, SHA512SUMS.sign
07:35<jkc>Okay, even easier.
07:35<jkc>See SHA512SUMS?
07:36<jkc>See the file with the same name, ending in .sign?
07:36<jkc>That latter is called a detached signature.
07:36<jkc>gpg --verify SHA512SUMS.sign SHA512SUMS
07:36<FelixActually>Meaning it's detached from the file it signs, I presume?
07:36<FelixActually>I've already done that command for both 256 and 512, and they outputted the key fingerprint
07:37<FelixActually>A date of Sat 14 Aug 2021
07:37<jkc>Okay, and did that fingerprint match one of the ones indicated here?
07:37<FelixActually>And "this key is not certified with a trusted signature"
07:37<FelixActually>Both of them matched the second one on the verify page
07:37<jkc>Then there you go.
07:37<FelixActually>Starting DF9B
07:37<jkc>The "trusted signature" part simply means that the key that signed it doesn't exist in YOUR local gpg keyring.
07:37<FelixActually>But my concern is the "this key is not certified" message
07:38<FelixActually>And that's not a problem in this context?
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07:38<jkc>Unless I regularly correspond with someone or some automated process drops a key into my local keyring, I see that message a lot.
07:38<jkc>In my judgment, no.
07:39<jkc>The Debian project has published which keys to expect. If I see a cryptographically valid signature from that key, then I'm satisfied.
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07:41<FelixActually>Okay; thank you
07:41<jkc>FelixActually: I hope that helps. :)
07:41<FelixActually>It does
07:41<FelixActually>I guess I'm satisfied to install it then
07:41<FelixActually>Are you able to help me with something else?
07:41<FelixActually>I want to put /usr on a separate partition and apparently this requires a custom initramfs to mount it before init starts
07:41<FelixActually>Unfortunately I have no idea how to do that
07:42<jkc>I generally advise "don't."
07:42<jkc>What kind of system are you building?
07:42<FelixActually>I have an SSD which is where all the root folders will go which have to go there, and I want to put everything which can go on a separate partition on my much-larger hard drive
07:43<FelixActually>I need /usr on it because /usr is where installed packages go
07:43<FelixActually>And I want to install games with large filesizes such as Flightgear
07:44<jkc>Then I would advise simply placing your root filesystem on the hard drive, and any filesystems that have any kind of "speed sensitivity" go on the SSD.
07:45<FelixActually>Well, when I built this computer the SSD's purpose was as the OS drive
07:45<FelixActually>So that it starts quickly
07:45<sbn>ok my system is up and running again
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07:46<jkc>FelixActually: So, in this instance, you could put /boot on the SSD, since that's where the kernel and initramfs get loaded from, and have / on the hard drive.
07:46<jkc>No custom initramfs required.
07:47<FelixActually>Are the kernel and initramfs the only things involved in boot?
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07:49<jkc>Let's see here. If I use systemd-analyze blame, I see on this system that most of my boot time is taken up with...
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07:49<jkc>Bringing up the network and apt doing background things.
07:49<jkc>So place /boot and /var on the SSD.
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07:49*enyc meows jkc
07:49<jkc>enyc: Hi!
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07:50<enyc>separate /usr /var etc. are not so common any more...
07:50<jkc>I'm aware.
07:50<FelixActually>What does /var contain again?
07:50<FelixActually>Variable-size files I think it means
07:50<jkc>FelixActually: You'll like this: man 7 hier
07:50<jkc>It actually describes, at least notionally, what goes where
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07:51<jkc>I will warn you however that some things in there are, uh, old.
07:51<Leather>How old
07:51<jkc>FelixActually: /var is for things that change a lot while the system is running.
07:51<jkc>Leather: Still mentions things like NIS.
07:52<sbn>lmoa, in dutch "hier" means 'here'
07:53<jkc>FelixActually: So if you're dead-set on using both drives, but have the space constraint for /usr, I would put / on the hard drive, and /boot and /var on the SSD.
07:53<FelixActually>How does that work though? Having root on the hard drive and boot and var on the SSD
07:53<jkc>It works just how you described it.
07:53<FelixActually>Root gets loaded from the hard drive which loads boot from the SSD?
07:54<jkc>The bootloader loads its configuration from /boot, which would then load the kernel/initramfs. The boot configuration also tells the system where to find the root filesystem, and nyoooom, off you go.
07:55<FelixActually>Oh, I see
07:55<FelixActually>So it doesn't actually know where root is until after boot?
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07:55<FelixActually>I would have thought it was the other way around
07:55<ham5urg>Is there a way to get the list of reverse-recommends and reverse-suggest of a package X?
07:55<jkc>It actually doesn't CARE.
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07:55<jkc>FelixActually: Everything required to load the kernel and initramfs into memory and hand over control to the in-memory environment is in /boot.
07:56<jkc>Only after that does "where is root?" come into play.
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07:56<jkc>Its the responsibility of the in-memory environment (initramfs) to bring the system from "boot-time environment" to "your actual system."
07:56<FelixActually>That makes sense
07:57<FelixActually>Wait, one question
07:57<FelixActually>Why should I put /var on the SSD too?
07:57<jkc>/var = things that change a lot while the system is running.
07:57<FelixActually>Wouldn't that be kind of a bad idea anyway, if the sizes change frequently? Due to reads and writes increasing
07:58<jkc>Unless you have an ancient SSD, you are not at all likely to get to an area where you need to worry.
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07:58<FelixActually>What benefit does it confer to put /var on the SSD though?
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07:59<ham5urg>The disk containing /var should be fast
07:59<ham5urg>as it is VARiable
08:00<FelixActually>I wouldn't say my hard drive is "slow"; it's just not an SSD
08:00<jkc>FelixActually: Access times for anything contained there are kept very low. Things like everything the package manager does, system logs, a lot of background "system level" stuff.
08:00<ham5urg>Slow is relatively. Someone needs more, the other one does not.
08:01<jkc>FelixActually: To be honest, if HDD level performance is fine, then I'm not seeing any particular reason to use the SSD at all.
08:01<jkc>I certainly didn't have much in the way of complaints when I ran my workstation off of a hard drive.
08:01<FelixActually>I guess mostly because I have it and intended it for that purpose
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08:02<jkc>Okay, but all of the data you're actually going to work with is, according to you, too much for the space on the SSD.
08:02<jkc>HOW big is this SSD?
08:02<FelixActually>I'd like to separate what I can because apparently that's good practice
08:02<FelixActually>Into separate partitions
08:02<FelixActually>Let me check
08:02<jkc>It's really not, these days.
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08:02<BCMM>ham5urg: apt-cache rdepends --no-depends --no-enhances
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08:03<ham5urg>The question itself show a young and/or not so experienced user I would guess. Therefore, there is no need for splitting up the root FS.
08:03<ham5urg>BCMM thanks
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08:03<BCMM>ham5urg: actually i think there's a few more --no parameters missing there. like -breaks
08:03<BCMM>i think it just lists out every reverse relationship, not just deps as the man page kind of implies
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08:03<jkc>FelixActually: Once upon a time, when I was building new systems in the US DOD, we had an insane number of small partitions because the security technical guides mandated it. Sure, I can carve a disk into large numbers of tiny filesystems. But this is for military applications.
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08:04<tepozoa>sadly, that's still a thing and not just military
08:04<jkc>FelixActually: My OWN systems? root, MAYBE /boot if I was doing something that required it. /home if there was enough user data going onto it for more than one user.
08:04<tepozoa>it's outlined in the CIS / STIG guidelines
08:04<BCMM>ham5urg: ah, it *is* there in the man page. the full list is "--no-pre-depends, --no-depends, --no-recommends, --no-suggests, --no-conflicts, --no-breaks, --no-replaces, --no-enhances"
08:04<jkc>tepozoa: I was referring to STIGs. :)
08:04<ham5urg>BCMM I try to get the list of suggests and recommends of a package X and check them each for deinstallation if X is also removed.
08:05<jkc>I still have nightmares about STIGing Linux boxes.
08:05<tepozoa>they're used all over the place today, it's a thing
08:05<jkc>I know. And I hate it.
08:05<tepozoa>I /hate/ micromanaging partitions
08:05<jkc>But I'm also not in systems engineering anymore.
08:05<jkc>So I am somewhat removed from the day-to-day hell that that entails.
08:05<BCMM>(obviously omit the one you actually *do* want to see)
08:05<tepozoa>FelixActually: what is your real concern about using your SSD vs HDD?
08:06<jkc>tepozoa: I'm working with FelixActually through what seems like a lot of... aged understanding of what best practices are.
08:06<jkc>I got it.
08:06<tepozoa>I use both - one laptop (this one) is only HDD, my work system is SSD. I really, really like using a full system on SSD
08:06<sbn>wtf, why did apt autoclean remove mariadb-server ?
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08:06<BCMM>i disagree with this "<FelixActually> I'd like to separate what I can because apparently that's good practice"
08:06<FelixActually>My SSD is about 217GB large I think
08:06<jkc>FelixActually: So 240GB out of the box. This isn't Windows, that's A LOT of space.
08:06<BCMM>at this point i think a lot of people use overly elaborate partition schemes for no particular reason
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08:07<FelixActually>My partition manager says 223GiB
08:08<jkc>FelixActually: Just put the whole system on the SSD. Use the hard drive for /home just for bulk storage.
08:08<BCMM>it means that you need to have a very good idea of how much space each thing is going to need (or just have so much spare storage that you're never going to approach full), and it often doesn't really *do* anything
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08:08<tepozoa>I run most workstations with a 1G /boot, 50G /, and then split the rest between /srv and /home - I don't encrpyt /srv, but do encrypt /home so store ISO files in /srv
08:09<jkc>Root for SSD, home on the hard drive, and create a swapfile (I'll help you there).
08:09<BCMM>tepozoa: is / encrypted?
08:09<tepozoa>I don't like to do that
08:09<BCMM>why is /boot/ its own partition, then?
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08:09<jkc>Is your swapfile encrypted, if you use one?
08:09<jkc>swapfile, swap space, etc.
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08:10<tepozoa>I prefer to use LVM, so underneath it is /boot not on LVM and the rest on
08:10<BCMM>ah, ok
08:10<FelixActually>jkc: The problem is that I want to play libre games, like Flightgear. Flightgear is gigabytes in size. I'd like to have as much space as possible, so preferably putting /usr on my hard drive so I have all that space available for both home files and packages
08:10<jkc>FelixActually: Flightgear needs like 5 GB.
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08:10<jkc>At MOST, it takes up 80GB.
08:10<FelixActually>But I also want to be future-proof here
08:11<jkc>You have thrice the storage that you presently need.
08:11<FelixActually>I'm hoping that there'll be more libre games I can play in future
08:11<jkc>And flight sims are massive compared to most anything else.
08:11<FelixActually>And that'll mean more space taken up
08:11<jkc>I know.
08:11<jkc>My previous recommendation remains entirely unchanged.
08:11<jkc>Blunt statement incoming.
08:11<FelixActually>Of putting everything on the SSD except home?
08:11<jkc>You are NOT qualified to build a system in a way that requires a custom initramfs to boot.
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08:12<jkc>And even if you were, I wouldn't suggest doing so.
08:12<BCMM>i ask because one of the pointless partitioning trends that I *still* see is people having /boot/ on its own partition simply because they think the kernel has to be near the start of the drive (which was true a long time ago now, when BIOSes didn't support large disks properly)
08:12<jkc>FelixActually: Install the system to the SSD, /home on the hard drive.
08:12<jkc>That is my final answer.
08:12<FelixActually>What about your suggestion of /boot and /var on the SSD and everything else on the hard drive?
08:13<jkc>Now that I have a better understanding of what you're doing and the size of the SSD, I wouldn't bother.
08:13<BCMM>FelixActually: /usr/ on a separate partition is unsupported by systemd, so you'd have some trouble working around that
08:13<jkc>BCMM: That was the custom initramfs thing.
08:13<FelixActually>BCMM: That's without the custom initramfs
08:13<BCMM>ah, i see
08:13<jkc>When it comes to a split /usr system, just DON'T.
08:14<tepozoa>here be dragons
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08:14<tepozoa>unless, of course, it's 1994 and you're NFS mounting /usr :)
08:14<Blendie>who has dragons
08:14<Blendie>i got dragons
08:14<jkc>If the systemd devs tell you its not supported and that attempting to do so will possibly result in systemd blowing up in your face while laughing rudely and raiding your fridge, then... just don't.
08:14<sep>i was nfs mounting /usr far into 2006 !
08:15<FelixActually>But is it simple to do /boot and /var on the SSD and everything else on the hard drive?
08:15<jkc>Felix, stahp.
08:15<FelixActually>Because if it is, I would like to do that really
08:15<jkc>REally, stop.
08:15<tepozoa>haha sep
08:15<jkc>FelixActually: Seriously, actually, really, stop.
08:15<jkc>System on SSD. /home on HDD.
08:16<FelixActually>But that's what I already have
08:16<FelixActually>I know that it's not going to work out
08:16<jkc>Okay, and what's the problem?
08:16<FelixActually>It's not future-proof, like I said
08:16<Blendie>you'll see
08:16<tepozoa>nothing is future proof
08:16<jkc>Explain how you know that.
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08:16<FelixActually>I don't want to have to reinstall again if there are more games available later and I don't have the space to install them
08:17<jkc>Because there are two kinds of future proof: 1. Paranoia. 2. Plotting long-term storage use growth over time.
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08:17<jkc>FelixActually: Give some kind of actual NUMBERS that indicate why you think this is such a pressing issue.
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08:18<Blendie>it is what it is
08:18-!-mode/#debian [+l 1017] by debhelper
08:18<BCMM>admittedly, installing a specific application on another disk is kind of difficult on Linux compared with Windows, at least with traditional package management
08:18<BCMM>anybody know if apt would object if, for example, /usr/share/games was a symlink? (looking at the specific example of flightgear needing a lot of space)
08:18<jkc>I don't think apt would care, no.
08:18<jkc>But still.
08:18<FelixActually>Oh, really?
08:18<tepozoa>FelixActually: a good, long term solution (IMHO) is one where you catalog your system setup, so that reinstalling it is not a pain in the future. It takes some work at the start but once you get in the habit of it, it pays off long term
08:18<FelixActually>So I could do that?
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08:19<jkc>I want to hear from FelixActually why he's so absolutely sure that he's in danger of imminent doom.
08:19<FelixActually>tepozoa: What do you mean by catalog?
08:20<tepozoa>a few basic things: you have a concrete idea of /what/ was in the initial install (a preseed.cfg file for example). every time you edit a file outside of /home, you copy it back to /home/felix/System (a future goal: keep in git etc.). Record a list of installed packages on a cron timer nightly into /home. Back up /home every day.
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08:21<FelixActually>When I'm on Debian 11 I intend to start using KDE Plasma's backup tool
08:21<FelixActually>But I probably won't do it daily
08:21<FelixActually>Weekly perhaps
08:22<tepozoa>whatever works! any backup is a good backup
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08:22<FelixActually>Also, I need to know about encryption too
08:22<tepozoa>I keep both automated backups (duplicity to remote server) and 2x local USB drives that I rsync /home over to once in awhile and put in the fire safe
08:22<FelixActually>Is KDE Plasma's "Vaults" a good option for encryption?
08:22<tepozoa>HA your backups :)
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08:24<tepozoa>I'm afraid I don't use KDE or that tool to know, sorry
08:25<tepozoa>very specific questions like that would be better for a KDE chat channel (debian-kde if it exists?)
08:25<FelixActually>It does, but there aren't that many users in it
08:25<tepozoa>try /r/debian /r/kde on reddit and whatnot
08:26<jkc>, borg
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08:27<FelixActually>For writing the ISO to the USB, is this correct: dd if=/path/to/iso of=/dev/sdc/ bs=4M; sync
08:28<jkc>FelixActually: No.
08:28<jkc>cp /path/to/iso /dev/sdc
08:28<jkc>Because it frickin' says so!
08:28<jkc>Stop fiddling with dd and I wish people would stop encouraging others to do the same.
08:29<jkc>cp takes care of all of that for you in the background.
08:29<FelixActually>Well, the USB drive already has an old Debian live ISO on it, so don't I need to remove that first?
08:29<jkc>FelixActually: No.
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08:31<jkc>If you delete and overwrite a file on the hard drive, do you have to wipe the entire hard drive to make that work?
08:31<jkc>No? Same concept. While there may be residual data there, nothing is pointing to it.
08:31<FelixActually>I haven't deleted it though
08:31<FelixActually>That's what I'm saying
08:32<jkc>Nor do you need to.
08:32<jkc>Do you need to wipe a partition before making a new filesystem? No. Because while there may be residual data there, nothing is pointing to it.
08:32<FelixActually>What I mean is that currently that USB drive contains files
08:32<jkc>That's probably a better analogy.
08:32<jkc>FelixActually: Yes, and when you run that command, it won't anymore.
08:32<FelixActually>From the last Debian install I did
08:33<FelixActually>But cp is copy
08:33<jkc>Just 'cp file.iso /dev/sdc'
08:33<Blendie>we gonna pif paf eachotgher now
08:33<jkc>Why are you trying to use Debian if you're going to argue with Debian's own documentation?
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08:33<FelixActually>Okay, so are you saying that cp does something different when it's copying a .iso file?
08:33<FelixActually>Because my understanding was that copy simply copies files
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08:34<jkc>FelixActually: Linux. "Everything is a file." If you copy a file to a new file, it creates the file, then copies the data into the file. /dev/sdc is a file that just so happens to point to a USB stick's storage medium.
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08:34<FelixActually>I get it now
08:34<jkc>So it IS copying a file.
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08:34<Blendie>how many of you taken a bullet already?
08:34<FelixActually>I'm not copying to /media/etc/usbdrive
08:34<FelixActually>I'm copying to the device
08:34<jkc>You're copying straight onto the underlying storage.
08:35<jkc>Same way that dd would, except that cp in this case takes care of all of the fiddly minutae.
08:35<FelixActually>But in my partition manager the current state of the USB drive is a 3.07GiB iso9660 partition, 2.88MiB fat12 partition, and 7.27GiB unallocated
08:35<Blendie>we have many lamps on the streets
08:35<FelixActually>Is that an issue?
08:35<FelixActually>Or does cp sort it out?
08:35<jkc>FelixActually: Nope. You're not dealing with filesystems or partitions.
08:35<Blendie>many corpses will fi in there
08:35<FelixActually>Why do I have a fat12 partition on it though?
08:35<FelixActually>Isn't that Windows?
08:35<jkc>You're telling cp to copy the contents of the ISO file onto the USB stick's storage. Nothing that's currently there matters.
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08:35<jkc>FelixActually: Nope. UEFI boot, most likely.
08:36<Blendie>if you had doubds who rules over here
08:36<FelixActually>Do I need a trailing slash after sdc?
08:36<jkc>Because sdc is a file, not a directory. :)
08:37<FelixActually>It says "cannot make regular file /dev/sdc: permission denied"
08:37<FelixActually>So I need sudo?
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08:38<jkc>It would be a good idea to 'sudo sync' before unplugging the USB.
08:39<jkc>Just in case the write cache hasn't fully emptied.
08:39<Blendie>you don't need sudo for this
08:39<jkc>Blendie: You've been rambling about corpses, I don't think we need you to contribute.
08:39<jkc>And even if it isn't needed, what does it hurt? Nothing.
08:40<Blendie>maybe you want to contribute
08:40<Blendie>i'm open to suggestions
08:40<jkc>Read backscroll. Been doing it all morning.
08:40<dpkg>i guess plonk is the sound that a name makes when hitting the ignore list or or killfile. Plonk is British and Canadian slang for cheap wine. "Rodney, you plonker."
08:40<dpkg>hmm... plonk is the sound that a name makes when hitting the ignore list or or killfile. Plonk is British and Canadian slang for cheap wine. "Rodney, you plonker."
08:41<Blendie>here we go
08:41<BCMM>i'd definitely prefer the official docs to the wiki, on preparing USB drives
08:42<BCMM>the wiki currently says Rufus is OK!
08:42<jkc>BCMM: BOTH advise the use of cp.
08:42<jkc>As long as you use Rufus in DD mode, NOT ISO MODE.
08:42<jkc>The latter will mangle everything.
08:42<jkc>The former works perfectly.
08:44<BCMM>jkc: it endorses ISO mode
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08:45<BCMM>the latest edit is, basically, bad and should IMHO be reverted, but i don't know what the etiquette is on that sort of thing
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08:46<FelixActually>jkc: sync without sudo didn't give any output, so I assume it works without it
08:46<jkc>FelixActually: Yup.
08:46<jkc>BCMM: Yeah, iso mode is a hell no.
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08:46<jkc>That's SO bad that it should be reverted ASAP.
08:46<jkc>I wouldn't sit too much on etiquette there.
08:47<BCMM>and if you look at the comment, it extremely misses the point
08:47<BCMM>the thing is, it would be my first wiki change. is there any sort of document about what to do about disagreements?
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08:48<BCMM>i guess this is probably just a "coming to a small wiki from wikipedia" problem
08:49<BCMM>as far as i can see, the user appears to have misread the previous version as implying that Rufus "modifies" the actual ISO image in your Downloads folder? and *replaced* the whole paragraph with his reply to that claim???
08:49<jkc>Debian ISOs are hybrid ISO files and need to be preserved when written.
08:50<jkc>I don't know if the change he's mentioning in Debian 10.10 is what he says it is, but there is no reason to complicate things and potentially create issues.
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08:51<BCMM>it should definitely get changed. i'm torn between just reverting it and trying to re-write the previous thing in such a way that it's even harder to misinterpret
08:52<jkc>I'm happy to help with the latter.
08:52<jkc>However, I don't want to revert a change if what's being said is legitimate.
08:53<jkc>I struggle to understand what may have changed with 10.10 that would affect whether or not Rufus results in nonfunctional media when used in ISO mode.
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08:54<jkc>Saying that it doesn't modify the ISO is categorically wrong, though; it ignores the bootloader configuration in favor of its own.
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08:56<BCMM>jkc: i think (charitably) that they've misinterpreted "altered" as meaning that the actual .iso file gets changed, as opposed to the contents of the USB stick will not match the ISO image
08:56<BCMM>or, uncharitably, that they've deliberately misread it in order to justify removing the paragraph
08:58<BCMM>also, "As of Debian 10.10" could just mean that this user tried it and it worked
08:59<BCMM>as far as i can tell, ISO mode *does* somehow work, some of the time, on some machines?
08:59<jkc>But the Anchorman "60% of the time, it works every time" is not guidance I'm willing to give to users.
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09:14<Guest5569>I lost my link list send it again. Cleared CrazyCat25516
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09:39<qqww>Hi, is there someway for me to prevent libpam-ldapd of modifying anything in /etc/pam.d during install? force-confold has not effect
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09:45<tepozoa>old school way: chattr +i <files in there>
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09:45<tepozoa>you could probably get a wee bit fancy and use facls instead
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09:47<tepozoa>(there's also a way to do this which is very outside the box but I had to do it once - you make a filesystem in a file, mount it, copy the content into that file-filesystem, unmount it, then re-mount it read-only overtop the real one - a "poor man's overlayfs" if you will)
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09:48<qqww>technically yes, but I'd rather avoid doing hacky things since this is automated and not done by hand
09:48*tepozoa nods
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09:48<tepozoa>could you remove the root (user) write bit?
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09:52<tepozoa>oooh, what about removing the x bit in /etc/pam.d (directory entry)?
09:52<tepozoa>that's maybe a tad dangerous
09:53<qqww>still hackish , if no possible to toggle a flag during install, I'll just drop this and look for alternatives
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09:53<qqww>thanks for the suggestions
09:53*tepozoa nods
09:53<tepozoa>I get where you're going, it's an interesting problem
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09:55<tepozoa>what about removing the executable bit from pam-auth-update ?
09:55<tepozoa>basically that's your trigger, "can I make this trigger inert"
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09:57<tjcarter>Oh please don't tell me that spammed the channel
09:58<tepozoa>? (no obvious spam here)
09:58<tjcarter>I just set away and WeeChat looked like it spammed every channel with the fact.
09:59<tepozoa>ahhh, I have the default weechat filter on which hides all of that
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09:59<tjcarter>I thought I had done so.
09:59<tjcarter>I'll fix it later.
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10:01<tjcarter>I was afraid I was going to have to flog flashcode for letting crap like that into weechat. 😅 Anyway, THAT scare over, sleep now, fix that message being output later.
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10:05<tepozoa>qqww: check this code out
10:05<tepozoa>could you "do something" to some /etc/pam.d/common-* files to trigger this code trap?
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10:08<tepozoa>It also seems to leave a "<dir>/seen" cookie to prevent it from doing a race condition (re-merging already merged files) -- maybe you could drop a cookie (semaphore) into there for this libpamd package *before* you install it?
10:09<tepozoa>(look right around line 126)
10:10<tepozoa>(line 229 explains it well - it's /var/lib/pam/seen)
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10:13<qqww>can do that, many thanks for the url aboive
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10:37<toto45>does debian have a git repository somewhere?
10:37<grid>toto45: ?
10:39<bremner>toto45: debian might not use git the way you are expecting. What is your goal?
10:39<imMute>toto45: debian has *many* git repositories.
10:39<toto45>I would like to see all the changes for a file in a debian package
10:40<bremner>you can run "debcheckout package"
10:40<bremner>oh, I guess that's in package devscripts
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10:42<toto45>I did debcheckout e2fsprogs (on jessie) and got "No repository found for package e2fsprogs."
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10:42<jhutchins>,v e2fsprogs
10:42<judd>Package: e2fsprogs on amd64 -- stretch: 1.43.4-2+deb9u1; stretch-security: 1.43.4-2+deb9u1; stretch-backports: 1.44.5-1~bpo9+1; buster-security: 1.44.5-1+deb10u2; buster: 1.44.5-1+deb10u3; buster-backports: 1.46.2-1~bpo10+2; bullseye: 1.46.2-2; bookworm: 1.46.4-1; sid: 1.46.4-1
10:43<jhutchins>bremner: You don't seem to understand the distribution structure of Debian.
10:43<jhutchins>bremner: It is not distriuted through git.
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10:43<bremner>jhutchins: I think you are talking to the wrong person
10:43<jhutchins>bremner: While many of the projects incorporated in debian do use git, that is not where debian packages come from.
10:44<jhutchins>bremner: That would not be unusual.
10:44<jhutchins>bremner: Hey, it's IRC, it happens.
10:44<jhutchins>tepozoa: Please see my remarks to bremner.
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10:44<bremner>still the wrong person
10:44*bandali chuckles
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10:45<jhutchins>bremner: So I was after toto45, right?
10:46<jhutchins>Coffee hasn't hit yet.
10:47<toto45>I have a simple question : do the debian package maintainers save all the changes to a given file between two releases of the distribution?
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10:48<bremner>if you just want between two releases, "dgit clone e2fsprogs" should do the trick
10:48<jhutchins>toto45: I don't believe they're necessarily saved to a public repository. That's not how git is usually used anyway.
10:48<tepozoa>qqww: if you remember to ping me, I'm curious as to where your solution lands. Ammo for the brainpan for some future problem that finds me
10:48<toto45>dgit: command not found
10:49<bremner>you have to install it
10:49<bremner>many developer tools are not included in the default install
10:49<tepozoa>jhutchins: your remarks to bremner were fabulous. 10/10 would read again
10:49<qqww>will do
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10:49<toto45>it doesn't seem to be available on jessie
10:49<bremner>jessie! ow
10:50<jkc>Upgrayedd. Two Ds, for a double-dose of Debian.
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10:50<tepozoa>first upgrade's free. all the cool kids are doing it. be much cooler if you upgraded.
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11:55<bremner>ricochet isn't in stable?
11:55<bremner>oh wait
11:56<bremner>it is, my bad
11:56<bremner>alex11: did you try looking on
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11:58<alex11>yeah i see it's been reported, with no reply yet
11:58<alex11>i hadn't checked before
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11:59<alex11>flatpak it is, i guess
11:59<alex11>oh never mind, it's not there
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12:02<bremner>It was just reported last week, it may take a bit more time for the maintainer to respond
12:03<bremner>I raised the severity of that bug, since it happened to more than one person
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12:22<crawler>Hello, I am trying to alter all systemd services unit files using a top-level drop-in conf file located in /etc/systemd/system/service.d/drin.conf but it looks like this file is ignored
12:22<crawler>Any ideas where the drop-in conf file should be located to do its job?
12:25<imMute>crawler: assuming the service is foo.service, then /etc/systemd/system/foo.d/drin.conf is the right place
12:25<imMute>crawler: don't forget to tell systemd to reload config files with 'sudo systemctl reload-daemon'
12:26<crawler>imMute yup, but I want to do that for all services not only foo.service
12:26<crawler>yes I do systemctl daemon-reload on every change
12:26<imMute>impossible, as far as I know.
12:27<imMute>and probably not a good idea either... what are you trying to add to every service?
12:27<crawler>`Units also support a top-level drop-in with type.d/, where type may be e.g. "service" or "socket", that allows altering or adding to the settings of all corresponding unit files on the system.`
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12:27<crawler>I am trying to get an email notification whenever any service enters a failed state
12:28<imMute>interesting, TIL.
12:28<imMute>is it working for any of the services?
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12:29<imMute>if you put it in a drop in file for a single service, does it work for that one?
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12:49<tepozoa>the docs say that these global drop-ins have _lower_ precedence, perhaps that's the problem? search "top-level" to get to that paragraph
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12:50<crawler>tepozoa that's why I created a dummy service for testing
12:50<crawler>that dummy service has no overrides anywhere
12:51<tepozoa>I'm also aware that for some keys you have to null them out first to override, like two lines where the first one is just ExecStart= and the second line is ExecStart=foobar
12:51<tepozoa>that caught me out once or twice, it's not well documented which keys need that
12:55<tepozoa> <- sure seems to read that it should be working, maybe compare yours against this blog?
12:57<tepozoa>crawler: my D11 shows systemd 247 packages - I found this upstream commit that I think is tagged 249. Is it possible that's the problem, requires 249+ to work?
12:59<tepozoa>(it reads that maybe you could try the old name, /etc/systemd/system/-.service.d, with a hyphen)
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13:03<crawler>I am overriding a [Unit] key, `OnFailure`. That blog doesn't do a top-level drop in. I am using buster, systemd v241-7. And I am following debian's man pages.
13:04<Tj>man-page on buster (v247) systemd.service shows it as <type>.d/ not -.<type>.d/
13:04<crawler>I am trying to search for systemd bugs in BTS, but it doesn't seem an easy job lol
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13:05<crawler>Tj precisely, that's why I used service.d/
13:05<tepozoa>go old school and attach strace -e trace=file to systemd :)
13:05<crawler>but it worths trying -service.d/
13:05<Tj>I'm checking the source; I work with systemd extensively
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13:09<Tj>/* Special top level drop in for "<unit type>.<suffix>". Add this last as it's the most generic
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13:11<crawler>I tried -.service.d/ and it didn't work
13:11<crawler>Tj and the suffix would be...?
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13:13<Tj>crawler: suffix would be the .d in your case; it copes with .wants .requires as well
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13:14<crawler>then I am doing it right
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13:15<tepozoa>I'm with you brochacho, it feels like it *should* be working. Tj is here to save us, they're digging in
13:17<crawler>on a side topic, am I looking at the correct page searching for debian's systemd bugs?
13:17<crawler>Special top level drop in for
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13:24<Blendie>latest firefox is a bit broken
13:24<Blendie>(on bullseye)
13:24<Tj>this is annoying - can't find the definition of unit_type_to_string(), only its declaration in src/basic/unit-def.h
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13:25<Blendie>stuttering noise when regulating audio output on youtube
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13:35<Tj>crawler: ok, found it, and it should just be ./service.d/ (function created via macro DEFINE_STRING_TABLE_LOOKUP in src/basic/string-table.h )
13:35<Tj>crawler: so the question is, what is in your override file? Maybe that is incorrect and therefore ignored
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13:36<crawler>and that's it
13:36<crawler>systemctl cat dummy.service doesn't show those two lines
13:36<crawler>same thing with systemd-delta --type=extended
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13:37<Tj>what's OnFailureJobMode set to?
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13:39<zepton>hello, I have a problem with virtual-manager on debian Bullseye
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13:41<crawler>zepton do we have to ask what it is?
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13:41<zepton>Il's a new installation, with kde-plasma-destop. i have set up a basic firewall with nftables ... basics rules
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13:41<zepton>i use the default configuration of virt-manager
13:42<Tj>crawler: works for me
13:42<zepton>but, when i start the virtual network on virt-manager, i have an erreur
13:43<crawler>Tj are you using buster or bullseye?
13:43<zepton>Failed to apply firewall rules /usr/sbin/iptables -w --table --list-rules : iptables v1.8.7 (nf_tbles): table 'filter' is incompatible, use 'nft' tool.
13:44<zepton>but i never used iptables
13:44<Tj>crawler: "cd /etc/systemd/system; mkdir service.d; echo -e "[Unit]\nDescription=system override" > service.d/override.conf; systemctl daemon-reload; systemctl cat sshd.service" ==> "# /etc/systemd/system/service.d/override.conf ..."
13:44<Tj>crawler: bullseye
13:45<crawler>I did the same thing on buster, but it didn't work
13:45<crawler>I will try Description= instead of OnFailure
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13:48<crawler>didn't work
13:49<zepton>i don't understand why virt-manager try to use ipatables
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13:51<bremner>the virtual network stuff predates nft. not sure if they ported it
13:51<crawler>Tj I tested it on a bullseye server and it worked
13:52<crawler>I would like to make sure it is a buster bug before reporting
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13:55<flyck>hi, i need help with configuring bridge networking on bullseye
13:55<flyck>followed this:
13:55<flyck>and my /etc/network/interfaces is
13:57<flyck>after few seconds, the interface gets automatic private IP address (169.254.x.x) and the host cannot reach internet anymore
13:57<zepton>dlibvirt-daemon-system is a rec of virt-manager and iptables or firewalld is a deb of libvirt-daemon-system
13:59<crawler>I installed systemd from buster-backuports and the top-level drop-in works now
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13:59<crawler>Thank you all
13:59<zepton>can i use virt-manager without libvirt-daemon-system ? or libvirt without virt-manager maybe ?
14:00<bremner>you can certainly use libvirt w/o virt-manager
14:00<bremner>via virsh, e.g.
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14:00<dpkg>Another happy customer leaves the building.
14:00<Tj>crawler: v241 doesn't have it - you mentioned the bullseye man-page... but you're using buster!?
14:01<Tj>crawler: "git describe --contains d272467882" => "v244-rc1~189^2"
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14:01<flyck>now - if I remove the APIPA (e.g. ip a del dev enp2s0) - I can reach the internet again...
14:02<crawler>Apologies, I said earlier I am using buster
14:02<Tj>crawler: I must have missed that
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14:06<tepozoa>flyck: 169.254 is that multicast stuff, that's the mcast loop - do you have something handing out/activating mdns?
14:07<Guest5583>any one frm india?
14:08-!-mode/#debian [+l 1025] by debhelper
14:08<flyck>tepozoa: it is Automatic Private IP Addressing (APIPA)
14:08<Tj>flyck: tepozoa 169.254 is not multicast; it is IPv4 Link Local Addressing
14:08<tepozoa>ahhh my bad, I'm thinking of some other range
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14:09*tepozoa nods
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14:10<flyck>so with the configuration all works well for few seconds, then the enslaved interface gets this IPv4 Link Local address and host cannot reach internet anymore
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14:10<Tj>flyck: do you have systemd-networkd in operation as well?
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14:11<flyck>Tj: hmm I don't know, it is fresh Bullseye install
14:12<Tj>flyck: "networkctl list" should show unmanaged if not using it
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14:12<imMute>jesus fuck my VPN has a bunch of crap interfaces...
14:13<flyck>Tj: all 3 (lo, enp2s0, bro) unmanaged
14:13<flyck>Tj: and: "WARNING: systemd-networkd is not running, output will be incomplete."
14:14<Tj>flyck: good
14:14<Tj>flyck: is this a desktop system, or server?
14:14<Tj>flyck: the other possibility is NetworkManager
14:14<tepozoa>so at a basic level, doesn't the dhcp client self-configure that 169.254 address when it can't reach/find a DHCP server?
14:14<flyck>it is desktop
14:14<Tj>flyck: in which case check what NetworkManager is configured to do
14:15<flyck>Tj: please suggest how to check..
14:15<flyck>Tj: nmcli: command not found
14:16<Tj>flyck: have you got avahi-autoipd installed?
14:16<flyck>Tj: no avahi-autoipd
14:18<scorpion2185[m]>does anyone use mirage?
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14:20<flyck>Tj: for proper bridge configuration, the enslaved interface is expected to not have IP address?
14:20<Tj>flyck: correct
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14:20<Guest5583>hi any hacker frm asia
14:20<Tj>it won't affect the bridge as such but the routing could be messed up if it isn't on an isolated subnet
14:21<bremner>dpkg: tell Guest5583 about chat
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14:21<Tj>flyck: do you have some drop-in files? "source /etc/network/interfaces.d/* "
14:21<Guest5583>im new to this
14:21<bremner>Guest5583: read what dpkg said in private message
14:21<bremner>then you will know more!
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14:22<flyck>Tj: no files in /etc/network/interfaces.d
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14:22<flyck>Tj: besides /var/log/messages and dmesg - where else can be log of who sets the auto-ip-private address
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14:24<flyck>Tj: I do have a workaround - ip a del dev enp2s0, but I want to understand how to make this cfg right
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14:24<sussudio>169.* is set when there aren't any dhcp offers.
14:24<Tj>flyck: networkd and autoipd are the only things I've seen doing that. Is this happening on the host?
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14:25<tepozoa>grep all logs for 169.254, something like `find /var/log -type f | xargs grep -F 169.254` to just try and locate where it might be hiding (general recipe)
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14:25<Tj>sussudio: there is no DHCP in use, and nothing flyck has checked so far is responsible.
14:25<sney>there was someone here who was getting zeroconf addresses a while ago, and it turned out that connman was doing it
14:25<sney>installed by some other metapackage and just running in the backgrounds
14:25<flyck>Tj: Is what happening on the host?
14:26<Tj>sney: hmmm, yeah, that sounds plausible
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14:26<Tj>flyck: which interface is getting the link-local address? and is it an interface on the host or in a VM guest?
14:27<flyck>Tj: enp2s0 interface (the one enslaved to bridge) on he host
14:27<Tj>flyck: a link-local address isn't going to prevent internet access. That would be a routing issue
14:27<flyck>tepozoa, Tj: connmand[577]: enp2s0 {add} address label enp2s0 family 2
14:27<tepozoa>there you go!
14:27<Tj>flyck: you got it :) that must be messing with the routing table too
14:27<tepozoa>just like sney said
14:28<sney>remove or disable connman and that will go away
14:28<sney>and now twice, this is probably a bug that should be reported
14:28<Tj>what pulled in conman though? I don't see any reverse-depends for it
14:28<tepozoa>sney rolling up like "hey Imma let y'all finish debugging, but have you checked connman?" and then rides off into the sunset
14:28<Tj>is it a task?
14:29<sney>it's a common dependency of lxqt, lxde etc
14:29<sney>used instead of network-manager for the more "lightweight" gui options
14:29<flyck>Tj, tepozoa, sney - yep thanks, this should be it. any disadvantage/side effects of disabling connman?
14:29<sney>if you're not using it, nonoe
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14:30<flyck>sney: indeed - I have lxqt as desktop environment..
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14:31<tepozoa>in general, only have one (thing) managing your network - since you are using NetworkManager, then let it handle everything
14:31<Tj>sney: must be in a task or seed; can't find any depends/recommends/suggests for it
14:31<flyck>tepozoa: I am not using NetorkManager..
14:32<tepozoa>I swear you said that above, was I smoking dope?
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14:33<sney>Tj: lxqt depends on cmst, which is the qt connman applet. lxde depends on connman-gtk, same
14:33<sney>and the applets of course depend on the daemon
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14:34<flyck>tepozoa: I wrote "nmcli: command not found".. so - if I disable connman - what will manage the network?
14:34<c->I have gnome and kde installed, how do I select kde instead of gnome?
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14:34<sney>this specific bug hasn't been reported but I found one that I submitted in June that seems like the same core issue, connman is trying to do network operations on devices that it diesn't manage #990501
14:34<judd>Bug in connman (open): «connman: Connman disrupted network during upgrade on system where it does not manage network»; severity: normal; opened: 2021-06-30; last modified: 2021-06-30.
14:35<Tj>sney: interesting; those packages don't show up in my apt lists on bullseye
14:35<tepozoa>if you are using /etc/network/interfaces, that is known as "ifupdown" as the solution
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14:36<tepozoa>flyck: run this and you'll see the systemd units which start your network: dpkg -L ifupdown | grep -F .service
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14:38<flyck>tepozoa: [/lib/systemd/system/] ifup@.service, ifupdown-pre.service, ifupdown-wait-online.service, networking.service
14:38<Tj>sney: doh! I was reading it as "conman" not "connman" !!
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14:39<flyck>tepozoa: so systemd units are enough to manage the network cfg? I can safely remove connman?
14:39<tepozoa>flyck: yes, I'm trying to "lead a horse to water" :) this is what you use / how it's managed on your install, these units
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14:39<tepozoa>2 people already said you can remove connman
14:39<tepozoa>listen to them
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14:40<flyck>tepozoa, Tj, sney: thanks a lot!!
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14:41<r4fkramer>Please, is it possible to install Debian Bullseye with LXQT DE on a USB flash drive from only 8 GB ? Or, or should I only use the 'LIVE' version in this case?
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14:41<Tj>flyck: just remember that you have uninstalled connman since it is probably also expected to manage network devices by the DE (think wifi, VPNs, etc.)
14:41<Tj>r4fkramer: it should fit as long as you don't also want to store a lot of data on it too
14:41<Tj>r4fkramer: would depend on which applications you add as well
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14:48<r4fkramer>Fine, Tj, in fact I will not store a lot data on it (1 GB maximum), and for this installation I'll need audacious, vlc, hexchat, audacity, konsole, emacs and python 3.9
14:49<c->I have gnome and kde installed, how do I select kde instead of gnome?
14:49<Tj>r4fkramer: well there's one way to find out... and a faster way - try installing to an 8GiB virtual machine first
14:50<r4fkramer>Fine, TJ, thanks for hint :) This laptop was built at the time of the American Civil War. So, I don't intend to make use of multiple applications or data in it.
14:52<tepozoa>c-: I'm just taking a guess here, but KDE uses (last I knew) the "sddm" session manager and GNOME uses "gdm" - it might be as (maybe?) basic as disabling gdm from starting (systemd) and making sddm start instead. This is a 100% stab in the dark though as I don't have this setup to look
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14:53<c->I've installed sddm and activated it with systemctl
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14:53<Tj>c-: tepozoa usually the greeter (which ever it is) will have a session chooser icon in some dark corner where you can select the session
14:53<tepozoa>so when you reboot, you get sddm now instead of gdm? (the login screen)
14:53<bremner>dpkg: tell nickel about ask
14:53<c->hmm mayby gdm is still enabled
14:54<c->I looking again for the session chooser, I've seen that in the past
14:54<tepozoa>Tj: gotcha. I rarely if ever have more than one desktop
14:54<sarnold>nickel: pong
14:54<tepozoa>err, DE that is
14:54<c->can't find session chooser
14:55*tepozoa is happy with MATE, if it ain't broke....
14:55<Tj>I think the default can be changed by changing the x-session-manager
14:55<Tj>e.g. "sudo update-alternatives --config x-session-manager"
14:55<r4fkramer>Please, if I don't use KDE in a debian installation (Mate or LXQt for this specific case), should I use 'lightdm' instead of 'sddm' ?
14:55<c->thanks Tj I'll try that
14:56<tepozoa>I use lightdm with MATE
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14:56<tepozoa>I light lightdm - easy to understand and configure, no surprises
14:57<nickel>i set up firefox to open 25 site tabs at launch. i mean it enters those 25 site automatically. but after that pulseaudio process starts eating cpu about %10 so i have to reboot pulseaudio service to fix that. it was happening on buster and after upgrading to bullseye it still happens. it is annoying to have to restart pulseaudio after ever firefox launch. what should i do?
14:58<r4fkramer>Fine tepozoa, the same here. In addition to this detail you just reported, is there any other technical reason that would justify using this instead of 'sddm' in debian + mate ?
14:58<tuxd3v>I just found were the automatically generated units go..
14:58<Tj>c-: Gnome has SimpleChooser - I'd have expected that to show up if using gdm
14:58<Tj>tuxd3v: /run/systemd/
14:58<tuxd3v>in the case I was searching for the '/'
14:58<tepozoa>r4fkramer: as I don't use sddm at all, I'm not a good person to answer that.
14:59<tuxd3v>so systemd parses fstab on boot and will generate this:
14:59<tuxd3v>Tj, thanks :)
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14:59<Tj>tuxd3v: yes, systemd-fstab-generator parses /etc/fstab and generates those runtime mounts and automounts
14:59<r4fkramer>Ok tepozoa, so, in your case, it's basically because it's easy to configure. Thank you for information.
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15:01<Tj>r4fkramer: I'm aware of edge-case bugs in both sddm and lightdm so it may be worth checking the bug-tracker for bugs on both to decide if any might bite you
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15:02<tepozoa>r4fkramer: I don't know if this matters to you, but I just looked at the sddm package and it's based on the Qt toolkit; MATE is based on the gtk toolkit, as is lightdm. In a very basic sense, the lightdm settings use the same theme settings as your MATE desktop can
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15:02<tepozoa>I have my MATE them set in the lightdm config and it "just works"
15:02<tuxd3v>Tj, many thanks, I was searching for it for some time, and I discovered that by accident lol :)
15:03<r4fkramer> tepozoa, Okay, thanks. I assume then that You have been doing this benchmarking between these two display manager options, at least in terms of 'bugs'.
15:03<Tj>tepozoa: I wrote a generator some time ago, to create mount/automount jobs for LVM LVs
15:04<c->Tj that worked thanks
15:04<tepozoa>I chose lightdm a long, long time ago and just use it
15:04<tuxd3v>why in debian, home´ s user folder has 755 permissions?
15:04<Tj>oops, sorry, that was for tuxd3v
15:04<tuxd3v>it should have 750
15:04<Tj>tuxd3v: I wrote a generator some time ago, to create mount/automount jobs for LVM LVs
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15:04<tepozoa>it's OK Tj, I'm LVm friendly too :)
15:04<tepozoa>sing me the song of your people
15:04<r4fkramer>yes, the same here. Anyway, if it works fine (I never had any issue using it), no need to choose another.
15:04<Tj>tepozoa: have a thin-pool on me :)
15:05*tepozoa shudders
15:05<tuxd3v>Tj, nice :)
15:06<tuxd3v>LVM is a very used thing :)
15:06<r4fkramer>tepozoa, fine, and that's Ok for me, because I basically use mate in my debian installations. Thank you very much for this additional information about the subject :)
15:06<tepozoa>r4fkramer: my desktop is very basic, I'm not a gamer or anything. I do most work on servers, my laptops are just .... terminals. play music, web, ssh, etc.
15:07<tuxd3v>I am trying to get a service for iSCSI, but I already searched and seems that you need to adjust a lot of things to get it right
15:08<r4fkramer>Fine, tepozoa in your case: debian servers ? Just for curiosity, and sorry if my ask looks inconvenient.
15:08<tepozoa>all the servers, all types. :) mostly RHEL and RHEL clones (enterprise stuff), Ubuntu, Debian and some SLES
15:08<tepozoa>rarely BSD
15:09<tepozoa>haven't touched Slowaris in 10 years
15:10<bremner>slowlaris >> aches
15:10<bremner>aches >> hpukes
15:11<r4fkramer>tepozoa, I'm always very interested in learning from reports about the use of more Server-oriented Linux Distributions, like the ones you mentioned. I am particularly interested in Debian in this mode of use.
15:11<tepozoa>ex-boss many years back was an ex-SGI refugee, I got to touch some Irix back then
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15:12<r4fkramer>This landscape mentioned by You caught my attention. And You rarely use BSDs. Interesting this.
15:12<tepozoa>I can imagine that everyone in this IRC chat has different experiences doing different things. Our jobs tend to guide what we learn and do on a daily basis
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15:15<nickel>i set up firefox to open 25 site tabs at launch. i mean it enters those 25 site automatically. but after that pulseaudio process starts eating cpu about %10 so i have to reboot pulseaudio service to fix that. it was happening on buster and after upgrading to bullseye it still happens. it is annoying to have to restart pulseaudio after ever firefox launch. what should i do?
15:15<r4fkramer>tepozoa, agree. I always check some servers usage statistics in w3techs. Always happy Debian takes a privileged position, as this is a well-deserved result of the effort of the Debian Project to provide a sophisticated and feature-rich OS, as it has what seems to me the largest binary repository among all the existing Linux Projects
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15:25<tepozoa>my very personal opinion (not work, etc.): Debian is the moral compass of distributions. When someone asks about a software license, or what is good or bad, I just say "well, what would / did Debian do?"
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15:27<scorpion2185[m]>why with same password I have to enter it twice?
15:27<abrotman>That lacks context
15:28<scorpion2185[m]>3 encrypted partitions
15:29<scorpion2185[m]>on boot as usually it aks the password(s)
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15:33<r4fkramer>tepozoa,Oh yes, I agree. Debian is the Central Paradigm of what's Best in terms of a UNIX or UNIX-Like System these days I just love everything that relates to this OS and Project. ...
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15:33<r4fkramer>Sorry for off-topic comments.
15:33<jkc>r4fkramer: BSD is the paradigm of what's best in terms of Unix or Unix-like.
15:33<jkc>Linux, not being Unix, nor is it trying to be, isn't something to compare to Unix.
15:33<Sqrt{not}>nickel, do some of those 25 firefox tabs have sound? Does pulseaudio stop using that cpu% if you close firefox?
15:34<jkc>I prefer Linux anyway. :P Not so... finicky.
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15:34<bentham>jkc: have you seen
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15:35<jkc>bentham: NetBSD kernel, GNU userland. Yes.
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15:35<nickel>Sqrt{not}: pulseaudio still eats cpu even after closing firefox
15:35<jkc>Debian GNU/kFreeBSD was similar.
15:35<bentham>and also:
15:35<nickel>Sqrt{not}: no there is no sound tab
15:36<bentham>yea, I had it backwards. kFreeBSD is live, NetBSD is not.
15:36<jkc>If I'm going to run a BSD kernel, I'll run BSD
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15:36<bentham>actually, looks like Debian GNU/kFreeBSD is also discontinued.
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15:38<jkc>Huh, I somehow missed that bullseye has PGSQL 13.
15:41<bentham>I would say that all of these projects -- Debian, Linux, GNU, FreeBSD, and so on -- are philosophies, moral and esthetic, in wihch truth, goodness, and beauty are sought and elaborated.
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15:41<bentham>It is human to love the pursuit of such things.
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15:44<jkc>bentham: Uh, no. That's precisely the sort of stuff I want to stay away from. If you want to go evangelize about the morality of free software, I'm sure Richard Stallman would love to have you along.
15:45<r4fkramer>jkc As far as I can tell, I particularly consider that all the great features of BSD have been directly or indirectly incorporated into the more robust Linux Projects (Debian is one of them, Central in my central opinion).
15:46<jkc>r4fkramer: Then you'd be wrong.
15:46<r4fkramer>Linux is not UNIX, this is an old 'war of definitions and concepts' - to me, this kind of reflection doesn't make sense.
15:46<jkc>Linux isn't Unix. It's not a reflection, it's a fact.
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15:46<bentham>jkc: We can agree to disagree. And I'm certainly not saying that I agree with Richard Stallman, or that Debian agrees with Richard Stallman!
15:47<jkc>Hell, that's what GNU stands for. "GNU's Not Unix!"
15:47<jkc>(I am in no way joking.)
15:47<bentham>jkc: you're right about that one. :)
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15:54<jhutchins>None of this looks like Debian troubleshooting. Perhaps if you wish to continue, try #debian-offtopic?
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16:04<ParsnipChicken>I am planning to run debian on a VM. What are the minimum reccomended specs I shoud give it?
16:05<flyck>Tj, tepozoa, sney: regarding the connman thing - a delicate way that worked for me: add the offended iface to NetworkInterfaceBlacklist in /etc/connman/main.conf
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16:08<shadow>hot tip for anyone trying out pipewire that doesn't want to edit config files etc. you can install the experimental packages for wireplumber and it just works, compared to the description that lists installing the service files and so on
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16:09<shadow>I was going to add this info to the wiki but I guess account creation is limited
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16:09<jkc>Those are the absolute minimums. I run my remote jump host off of 1 CPU, 1 GB RAM.
16:10<jkc>I've run decent websites off of Debian VMs with those specs.
16:10<ParsnipChicken>jkc: Thanks a bunch!
16:11<bentham>ParsnipChicken: actually, think about it this way: you'll have two machines now. The machine containing the VM, and the VM.
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16:12<ParsnipChicken>bentham: Right, I was just curious as to what to provide the VM with.
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16:12<Tj>flyck: right, I suspected it'd have something like that. NetworkManager has similar. E.g. by default desktop installs on Ubuntu disable NM from managed wired interfaces! /usr/lib/NetworkManager/conf.d/10-globally-managed-devices.conf "[keyfile]" "unmanaged-devices=*,except:type:wifi,except:type:gsm,except:type:cdma"
16:12<ParsnipChicken>I went with 2G ram and 16G hard disk. Staying on the safe side I think.
16:12<bentham>So my suggestion would be to think about the specs for the machine containing the VM. Particularly RAM. How much RAM does the machine containing the VM need, and how much does it have? In the difference between how much it has and how much it needs, is there enough to handle your Debian distribution?
16:14<bentham>Speaking personally, I would be really uncomfortable with less than 4 GB of RAM allocated to the VM. And since your container machine will need RAM too, that probably means 8 GB.
16:14<sney>flyck: nice, good to know.
16:15<shadow>somewhere between 512MB and 768MB RAM for 32-bit... times four for 64-bity
16:15*shadow fails
16:15<Blendie>throw it out, get a new machine
16:15<Blendie>waste of scape, time and energy
16:16<bentham>(but my suggestion applies to a general purpose workstation, perhaps not a server instance for a specific and low-intensity service)
16:16<Blendie>rpi4 sounds like a better idea
16:16<shadow>people suggesting rpi4 are into hobby stuff, not a bad thing, just not real world
16:16<jkc>lol wut
16:16<ParsnipChicken>Well right now I'm on an 8G ram Macbook and I am planning to get something new or put Debian on it. This is more of a practice run.
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16:17<ParsnipChicken>I'm trying out all the big distros so I'll be prepared
16:17<jkc>People suggesting rpi4 might also be fully aware that ARM-based systems are DEFINITELY on the rise, including in large cloud providers.
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16:19<shadow>jkc: hey I'm not personally attacking anybody, and yeah I like hip new tech but really the rpi4 is hugely limited in computing resources and what it does have is a vibrant helpful community so... I don't consider that real world equipment?
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16:20<jhutchins>shadow: Did you have a Debian support question?
16:20<jkc>It's a quad-core arm64 CPU with 4/8GB RAM. Storage IO sucks if you're using a microSD card, but other than that, it's very much "real world" capable.
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16:20<jhutchins>jkc: This does not look like it's realted to debian support.
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16:22<shadow>ParsnipChicken: sounds good! 8GB RAM machine is fine for whatever you want to try out. I have 64GB RAM on this desktop build which is excessive and only reason I did it was because there are certain things I want to do for research that take a database loaded into RAM, but those are weird things nobody would normally do. 8GB RAM is plenty for Debian and hosting VMs
16:22<jkc>jhutchins: I honestly don't care.
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16:23*shadow :(
16:23<jhutchins>jkc: Please take it to another channel. You too shadow
16:24<shadow>jhutchins: I said, was trying to contribute to the wiki but registrations are closed. Thanks for moderating.
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16:24<jhutchins>shadow: I'm sorry I don't know how to get around that. Might be a temporary thing with the release.
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16:27<shadow>is there some shortcut or well-known trick to include the current directory of .deb files when installing software using apt? This is something I've struggled with from time-to-time over the years using Debian. It gets messy when there are a handful of sneaker'ed deb files that are inter-dependency?
16:28<shadow>sney: I'll do that, thanks.
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16:30<ParsnipChicken>What is the irc channel for general non-support conversations about debian?
16:30<ParsnipChicken>sney: Alright, thanks.
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16:32<Sqrt{not}>nickel, does pulseaudio use the same amount of cpu if you don't start all those firefox tabs?
16:32<jhutchins>shadow: Boy, the apt documentation is a bit thin, isn't it? One sure way I know for an individual package is dpkg -i <path-to-package>, then apt -f install. That _should_ work with a regex for the package name.
16:33<nickel>Sqrt{not}: i don't understand what you mean
16:33<nickel>Sqrt{not}: it starts using after launching
16:33<sney>apt supports installing local files now, you can apt install ./foo.deb and it will resolve the dependencies there
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16:33<jhutchins>sney: I thought that was the case but it's not in the man page.
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16:34<Sqrt{not}>nickel, you after launching firefox? but not before firefox, is that right?
16:34<jkc>sney: The ./ is required, isn't it.
16:34<sney>yeah, apt(8) is pretty brief. I know about this one because I use it fairly often
16:34<sney>jkc: correct, otherwise it will look for a package with that name in the archive
16:34<jkc>sney: And that's why it never worked for me. Whee. Now I know!
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16:35<nickel>Sqrt{not}: right
16:35<shadow>jhutchins: The other use-case is a local cache of deb packages, so a bunch of similarly configured computers in a tech lab environment can have one machine run updates and all the rest pull packages locally, but without pulling a whole mirror locally.
16:36<sney>reprepro is good for that
16:36<jmcnaught>or maybe apt-cacher-ng
16:36<nickel>Sqrt{not}: i tried all sites one by one if a site cause this. no they don't
16:36*shadow takes notes
16:36<somiaj>yea apt-cacher-ng is good for a local repo of only packages you use
16:36<oleum>Hi everyone! After trying out and really liking Debian-based distribtions for desktop use, I decided to take the full plunge and installed debian bullseye on my laptop yesterday. Everything seemed to go well with the install and the initial reboot, but after shutting down my machine for a second time, I'm stuck in initramfs and don't really understand what's going on. I have a more complete description at
16:36<oleum>1209345/. I think this is the place to discuss this sort of problem, but if it's not then please let me know.
16:36<nickel>Sqrt{not}: it happens when launching all of them
16:37<oleum>Whoops! That cut the link in half. The link is
16:37<nickel>Sqrt{not}: can you help me?
16:37<shadow>oleum: happened to me when I installed to a fully UEFI system.
16:38<somiaj>oleum: the uuid configured in your grub doesn't exist, so you have a configuration issue somewhere, and might need to rebuild grub
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16:38<dpkg>To reinstall <GRUB> boot to your Debian install disk/live CD, switch to the other console (Alt-F2), mount your root filesystem (mount -t ext4 /dev/whatever /target ; mount --bind /dev /target/dev ; mount -t proc none /target/proc ; mount -t sysfs none /target/sys), chroot into it (chroot /target), run "mount /boot/efi" on EFI and "update-grub && grub-install /dev/whatever". See also <rescue mode>, <dual boot guide>, <supergrub>.
16:38<jhutchins>nickel: One thing to test would be to open them all manually, and then to open one at a time to see which one is causing the trouble.
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16:39<nickel>jhutchins: i tried one by one
16:39<nickel>i entered them
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16:39<nickel>jhutchins: it doesn't happen
16:39<nickel>when entering one by one
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16:39<jhutchins>nickel: Even with all 25 open?
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16:40<nickel>jhutchins: what do you mean?
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16:40<jhutchins>nickel: With all of them opened one-by-one until they were all open together.
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16:40<nickel>jhutchins: yes
16:40<oleum>@dpkg Does that mean I need to reinstall debian in general?
16:41<nickel>i didn't close tabs after entering
16:41<jhutchins>oleum: I think that would be a good thing to try. Not a common problem.
16:41<maher>is there a calendar app that lets me see a whole 4-6 weeks, but with the current week first, rather than the standard monthly view?
16:41<sney>oleum: dpkg is a bot. those are instructions to reinstall the bootloader from the debian environment
16:41<shadow>oleum: it's just a complicated (but minor) issue with the UEFI and bootloader, once you find a way past it probably you'll never have any problem with it again even on future Debian installs (though it just upgrades so... really one and done you are not likely to have to ever touch that again)
16:42<sney>oleum: but tbh it looks like some piece of pop os is still in your efi partition and trying to boot nothing, so running the install again might be a good idea anyway
16:42<jhutchins>nickel: So what we have might be a "race condition", where more than one site is trying to grab the audio channel at the same time, and pulseaudio is not able to resolve who owns it.
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16:42<oleum>sney: Thanks!
16:42-!-lonewulf` is "U-lonewulf-PC\lonewulf" on #linode #debian #oftc
16:43<jhutchins>nickel: You could spend a lot of time figuring out which ones were the problem, or maybe just break them down into smaller batches.
16:44<jhutchins>nickel: I know chrome will open all of the tabs in a bookmark folder if asked.
16:44<nickel>jhutchins: i will try to disable suspected tabs and try again thanks
16:44<nickel>see you
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16:45<oleum>shadow: I guess I'll just reinstall everything. Do you think it might be an issue with bullseye? Like do you think it would be a good idea to install buster, make sure everything works, and then upgrade to bullseye?
16:45<dvs>!windows mentality
16:45<dpkg>You don't have to reboot every time you change some configuration or if something goes wrong. You can restart a service by doing "service <service> restart". If there is something wrong in the configuration, it can usually be fixed without reinstalling the entire system.
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16:47<shadow>oleum: hmm... I'm happy to try and help, I remember it was very confusing for me because I wanted to turn off the BIOS compatibility module (CSM) for my motherboard and force a UEFI boot, it just was very troublesome to figure out :)
16:47<oleum>sney: Ok, sounds good. How would I get rid of that piece of PopOS?
16:47<jhutchins>oleum: It shouldn't be necessary to fall back to buster.
16:47<jento>Hello i have debian 10 install but to many packe install
16:47<jento>i will new install debian 11
16:47<jento>but i dont have cdrom or USB
16:48<Blendie>you get rid of your mother
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16:48<jkc>jento: Upgrading, in most cases, works just fine.
16:48<jento>is it possibel install vom ISO
16:48<jento>but if i upgrade all my packe i install from last yeahs keep
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16:49<sney>oleum: you might want to poke around in the efi menus and see if there's something that lets you clear the existing entries. this varies by vendor, but I think s76 is supposed to expose a lot of controls
16:49<jento>is it possibel to run the .iso from shell from a running system
16:49<jkc>jento: I don't really understand the issue preventing you from upgrading.
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16:49<dpkg>Deutschsprachige Hilfe bekommt ihr in (auf, oder -
16:49<jhutchins>jento: No.
16:49<oleum>shadow: Thanks! I don't really intend to do anything that complicated, I'm fairly happy with the firmware that s76 supplies.
16:49<shadow>jkc: Debian live doesn't have an "upgrade" option as such right? I think they are looking for an upgrade button :D
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16:50<jhutchins>shadow: They want to install (upgrade?) without external media.
16:50<jento>i my current debian 10 i have install so many packe i will start from scratch
16:50<dvs>oh rube goldberg!
16:51<jento>also kann man hier auch deutsch schrieben
16:51<jhutchins>jento: See the message from dpkg for help in German.
16:51<oleum>sney: Thanks! I'll see if there's anything I can change.
16:52<grove>But you were told a moment ago where to go for help in German
16:52<jhutchins>There is debootstrap
16:52<dpkg>debootstrap can create a basic Debian system from scratch, without apt/dpkg. Useful for installing in a <chroot>. It is key to installing Debian GNU/Linux from a Unix/Linux system. -
16:53<grove>But this guy don't want to install in a chroot
16:54<jkc>jento: Es ist in Ordnung, viele Pakete zu haben. Upgrades funktionieren in der Regel trotzdem gut.
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16:54<jkc>(I don't know "upgrades" in German, but I figured it would come through anyway.)
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17:08<Blendie>child rapists
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17:10<jhutchins>grove: Do you know of other ways to install with no media?
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17:11<somiaj>netboot using pxe
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17:53<trevorksmith>kill -9 on a process does not kill it. Ive never had this happen. Libre office is frozen on screen and i cant get rid of it. Anything i can do?
17:54<sney>modern processes often fork aggressively so killing one pid doesn't affect the whole application. 'killall' can come in handy there since it will match a process name
17:54<sney>or look at (h)top output and see if there's some other process that's causing the lockup
17:55<somiaj> for an xorg problem, xkill can sometimes be useful, since it kills based off the window vs process id
17:55<trevorksmith>im doing ps aux | grep libreoffice and i see only one process, can keep kill -9 but goes nowhere. same PID.
17:55<somiaj>and if you are unlucky, the process has become a zombie
17:55<sarnold>xkill is sometimes handy
17:56<somiaj>trevorksmith: which user are doing kill -9 as?
17:56<trevorksmith>boom, xkill worked like a charm
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17:56<somiaj>glad xkill works, but I think xkill also tells x to destroy the window process/id, in which kill -9 may not do
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17:57<trevorksmith>gotcha, makes sense
17:57<somiaj>yea, xkill closes the client connection to the xserver vs just kills the process
17:58<somiaj>though sometimes the process is still running, its window is at least gone
17:58<trevorksmith>yeah, if i do ps aux, its still there
17:58<sney>also, libreoffice's parent process is often called 'soffice' or 'soffice.bin' depending on version, which wouldn't show up if you just grep for libreoffice
17:58<somiaj>yea it i defunct or a zombie, unsure what is best here, sometimes a reboot is needed (though I just may not be knowledgeable to deal with zombee/defunct processes that are stuck in some stange state) -- sometimes i/o waits can cause this
17:58<sney>ancient history from star office roots
17:59<trevorksmith>I think what happen is i had a network mount (rclone) forwhich libreoffice had a file open on, and restarted the mount without closing the file and it locked up.
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18:00<somiaj>ahh yea, that can cause problems if a network mount goes away and something is open on it, i/o waits can cause things to act really defunct, and unsure of any way to kick it out of that state
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18:01<trevorksmith>but yes, i checked soffice.bin as well now, and its stil just the one process
18:01<somiaj>the process is probably stuck waiting for an i/o request I belive
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18:02<trevorksmith>Im surprised kill -9 doesnt get rid of it. but my kernel knowledge is lacking to understand whats going on in the backend
18:02<trevorksmith>bothers me knowing its still there... might not be able to sleep at night..
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18:02<somiaj>yea, my first google hit, "Unfortunately, one can never kill a process waiting on I/O because it's priority is in the kernel range & these are unkillable in that state."
18:03<somiaj>Now this almost sounds like a bug in libreoffice, libreoffice should have a timeout where if it doesn't get an i/o response it just timesout, which it sounds like it isn't
18:03<somiaj>a reboot might be the only way to fully get rid of this process
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18:04<trevorksmith>yeah, my googling returning similar results and i dont know what else to try. Ill give it a reboot tomorrow.
18:04<trevorksmith>Thanks for help everyone :)
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18:05<user_>Would anyone be interested in pen testing?
18:06<dpkg>Installing Parrot or Kali on your computer will not make you into a security expert overnight. If you really want to have those skills, install a general purpose linux distro like Debian (, learn at least one programming language, and learn about networking. Eventually you may have the skills that make a pentesting distro a useful tool.
18:07<somiaj>user_: this is not a pen testing channel, we support the debian os
18:07<user_>I'm on debian right now.
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18:08<maher>trevorksmith: if there are anny soffice processes, try killing them...
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18:09<trevorksmith>maher: Theres only one process and its does not respond to any kill signals.
18:10<user_>Is there anyone here interested in pen testing?
18:11<jkc>user_: You were already told that this is not a pen testing channel, this is a Debian support channel.
18:11<jkc>If you have a Debian support question, feel free to ask.
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18:13<user_>Linux host 4.19.0-17-amd64 #1 SMP Debian 4.19.194-2 (2021-06-21) x86_64
18:13<user_>Welcome to Whonix-Workstation ™!
18:13<user_>Whonix Copyright (C) 2012 - 2021 ENCRYPTED SUPPORT LP
18:13<user_>Whonix is Freedom Software, and you are welcome to redistribute it under
18:13-!-user_ was kicked from #debian by debhelper [flood]
18:14<trevorksmith>i wonder what his intentions were
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18:17<sney>kids pretending to be hackers are a fact of life in #debian
18:17<sney>they usually get booted eventually though sometimes we can get them to ragequit
18:18-!-mode/#debian [+l 1018] by debhelper
18:18<dvs>but they installed kali so they're pros!
18:18<sarnold>I've wondered if it's the same kid coming back every three months
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18:18<jkc>sney: Kids pretending to be hackers are a fact of life.
18:18<sarnold>they never say anything useful
18:19<sney>sarnold: could be
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18:20<another>upgraded two VMs to bullseye \o/
18:20<dvs>!prize another
18:20*dpkg gives another a beer.
18:20<sney>upgrades seem pretty smooth this time around.
18:20<Mister00X>sarnold: btw you me told me some days ago how to mount isos as lokal debian archive for upgrading to bullseye..... That worked perfectly. Except that I had to add [ trusted=yes ] to the deb file:/ entry. So thanks
18:21<dvs>well, except for security.
18:21<sarnold>Mister00X: woot! thanks for the report back :)
18:21<sarnold>I'm a bit surprised about the trusted=yes, but good job figuring that bit out :)
18:23<Mister00X>sarnold: well apparently the isos dont ship a Release.gpg file. But I found that solution thanks to google and manpages
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18:23<Mister00X>This upgrade was inredible fast thanks to that.
18:23<sarnold>woohoo :)
18:23<esombad>I'm new this.
18:23<sarnold>certainly faster than writing a cd and then using that, hehe
18:24<Mister00X>sarnold: yes indeed
18:24<sney>you added an iso without using apt-cdrom? interesting
18:24<sarnold>sney: yeah; I thought apt-cdrom would invoke 'eject the drive' sort of things, so we just mounted the iso and then did file:///
18:25<sney>apt-cdrom's manpage has some options to override that. but neat! particularly since the manpage also says "It is necessary to use apt-cdrom to add CDs to the APT system; it cannot be done by hand."
18:25<sarnold>oh wow
18:26<tjcarter>trevorksmith: re: user, to hack a Gibson, obviously. 😁
18:27<esombad>What's a Gibson?
18:27<tjcarter>(I think I just aged myself.)
18:27<sarnold>tjcarter: lol
18:27<sney>Hackers (1995)
18:28<sarnold>omg that was 1995?
18:28<tjcarter>It'd almost have to be, it was so corny.
18:28<sney>it's got that idealistic 90sness about it yeah
18:28<esombad>I need help with hardening debian.
18:28<somiaj>before we run to offtopic, at least that was better than the sandra bullock one you can find on netflix now...forget its name
18:29<sney>esombad: debian is pretty sturdy out of the box. do you have a specific threat model you're targeting?
18:29<somiaj>esombad: in what sense? but I would first look into apparmor as that is something you can adjust to make things a bit stronger, and if running sshd, install fail2ban
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18:29<tjcarter>somiaj: lol
18:30<esombad>Creating better network parameters specifically.
18:30<esombad>Thanks for the link.
18:32<somiaj>tjcarter: ahh it is just called 'The Net (1995)'
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18:33<jkc>somiaj: Oh god that one XD
18:33<tjcarter>Yeah first rule of security is expose as little as possible. Don't run services you don't need. Second is firewall anything else that might incidentally run. Third is set up something like fail2ban … and you haven't even touched selinux, apparmor, or anything "security" specific yet.
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18:33<esombad>sudo: 2 incorrect password attempts
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18:34<esombad>does anyone know the default password for whonix?
18:34<somiaj>though with debian use apparmor as it is now included by default (though its rules are fairly minimial and can use some tighting up for certain threat models)
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18:34<dpkg>Whonix is a Linux distribution based on Debian, distributed as two virtual machine images. It is not supported in #debian; ask me about <based on debian>. #whonix on If you are new to linux try Debian instead:
18:34<somiaj>esombad: it doesn't sound like you are running debian.
18:35<esombad>I'm running whonix on top of debian
18:35<jkc>That is not Debian.
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18:39<esombad>What debian distro's are reccomended?
18:39<jkc>There is Debian, and there is not Debian.
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18:40<esombad>I give up.
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18:40<jkc>It's not hard to understand. The only Debian distro is Debian.
18:40<sarnold>rather than give up, why not take the time to learn whatever it is you're trying to do?
18:41<somiaj>esombad: You should choose the distro which you like best, note that one thing you get with a distro is the support community. This support community (for techencial and social reasons) chooses to support debian pure blends.
18:41<somiaj>Nothing wrong with using whonix, we just don't support it here
18:41<esombad>Advantages od debian over Arch?
18:41<tjcarter>Literally anything you can do with a "security-minded" distribution built using parts of Debian can also be done on Debian. Unless your goal is "penetration testing" (read: breaking into other people's computers, theoretically with authorization to attempt to do so), Kali for example … is just Debian with a couple of knobs.
18:42<tjcarter>You can turn those knobs in Debian just as well
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18:42<jkc>esombad: That's a hugely subjective question and isn't likely to get valuable answers.
18:43<Sqrt{not}>somiaj, dpkg gave you a web site link, and an IRC channel if you want to run whonix, and a webpage explaining why and how to run debian.
18:43<Sqrt{not}>esombad, ^^^^^^ (sorry somiaj )
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18:44<esombad>It wasn't meant to be a debate... just searching for technical differences.
18:44<tjcarter>I can take half a stab at it … but jkc is largely right. Debian comes with binary software configured to do … most things if you install the correct bits. Arch tends to give you source, build your own. It automates this process, but ultimately most of the time you're either getting soemthing very similar to Debian, or you're spending a lot of time watching compilers churn. It's
18:44<tjcarter>"optimized" for your use, but it's more fiddly and prone to things breaking.
18:45<tjcarter>Debian … has less moving parts, essentially.
18:45<jkc>tjcarter: Arch doesn't give you source unless you're pulling from the AUR. Arch provides binary packages, same as Debian.
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18:45<tjcarter>Debian stable has an advantage that it changes fairly little once released.
18:45<jkc>You might be thinking of Gentoo.
18:45<tjcarter>jkc: I've used both.
18:46<jkc>Well, as I said, Arch isn't a source-based distro. It provides binary packages.
18:46<tjcarter>jkc: I did say you had both options, and that when using binaries, it's a lot like Debian.
18:47<esombad>@tjcarter... Thanks for that explaination.
18:47<jkc>You don't really have both options. Arch isn't a source-based distro. You can pull "outside" stuff from AUR, but that's the extent of it.
18:47<jkc>You have as much of a source-based option in Arch, really, as you do in Debian.
18:47<tjcarter>I like Debian stable on a server because things don't change, it's predictable, and I have less work to do.
18:48-!-mode/#debian [+l 1012] by debhelper
18:48<jkc>^^^ - I like Debian in general for that reason, server or otherwise.
18:48<tjcarter>but as jkc said, the differences are largely subjective. Linux is Linux. There's a couple major flavors of it, but we all use basically the same parts. It's just how we set them up, how we present it to the user, etc. that matters.
18:49<esombad>Who uses debian as a server in a commercial environment
18:49<tjcarter>Anyway, I've got a doctor's appointment to leave for in about 15 minutes
18:49<jkc>esombad: One example is shared web hosting companies. Debian is a MASSIVE presence.
18:50<alex11>i love that page
18:50<esombad>In what ptform?
18:50<somiaj>esombad: ^^ lots of lists of people using debian in various enviorments
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18:51<esombad>Who's not a bot in this room?
18:51<jkc>About 1000 users.
18:52<esombad>Is anyone a RHEL Admin?
18:52<jkc>Why are you asking in Debian?
18:53<bittin>esombad, would it not be better to ask that in #rhel on
18:54<esombad>Because I want to get an opinion on a RHEL Admin vs A Debian User/Admin in a commercil environment.
18:54<sarnold>well.. #rhel isn't really *about* rhel, just rhel-adjacent :)
18:54<jkc>esombad: Linux is Linux.
18:55<esombad>I dont know what channels to go into... I literally just started chatting in Hex.
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18:56<esombad>If Linux is Linux... Then Ubuntu is CentOS
18:57<jkc>Any competent Linux administrator would be able to work with either just as well.
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18:59<esombad>I do agree with your statement, but the different branches and flavors are not easy to hop into one from another... Like windows for example.
19:01<jkc>Yes, they are.
19:01<jkc>For a beginner, maybe not, but anyone that you're asking in the context of enterprise usage isn't going to be one of them.
19:02<sarnold>things might get a bit weird if you need to run magic drivers for high-end hardware, or you've got to run oracle database or SAP HANA or something similar
19:02<sarnold>those are the sorts of things that are both incredibly powerful and also very very fragile
19:02<esombad>I'm a begginer in the linux world.
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19:03<jkc>esombad: Then maybe you should just pick a distro and start with it instead of asking all of these X vs. Y questions that really aren't going to benefit you.
19:04<esombad>Any recommendation on which Distro I should put the most time into?
19:04<jkc>Pick one. And start with it.
19:04<dselect>Before asking in here or on the <debian-user> mailing list, you should read the Installation Guide, or if you already have Debian installed, the Debian Reference. The Debian Administrator's Handbook is also good. Ask me about <ig>, <overview>, <reference>, <refcard>, <docs>, <manuals>, <fundamentals>, <newbiedoc>, <faq>, <unix lessons>, <general cli tutorial>, <debian-handbook> (e.g. in your IRC client, type /msg dpkg reference).
19:04<jkc>You're already here. You could easily start with Debian.
19:04<dselect>The Debian Reference will answer most of your questions about Debian. The latest version (v2) is at . Read it after installing Debian and before asking for support, as it is the closest thing Debian has to a manual. You can install this too, the package name is debian-reference: «aptitude install debian-reference»
19:04<sarnold>depends what you want; if you want to learn how linux works, linux from scratch would be a pretty solid introduction
19:05<sarnold>if you want to learn the tools on top, whatever works for your hardware wouldn't be a bad starting point
19:05<jkc>Linux from Scratch is a TERRIBLE introduction. That's like saying that you need to build a car in order to learn how to drive.
19:06<sarnold>if you want to be a mechanic..
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19:06<esombad>Debian is the oldest distro, but I've had a very hard time getting good answers from the debian community. The Ubuntu community is so much more friendly.
19:07<jkc>esombad: To be honest, the quality of answers heavily depends on the quality of the questions.
19:07<jkc>You're not really asking anything that we can answer. A lot of what you're asking is best learned by your own experience, for which none of our answers can substitute.
19:08<jkc>There's nothing stopping you from trying out eleventy brazillion different distros, and deciding which one you like best. Then changing your mind a day, week, month, year later.
19:08<esombad>How can I save this channel, so I can come back to it later?
19:08<bittin>esombad, Slackware is older :p
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19:09<jkc>Ahh, slackware.
19:09<jkc>Where I started.
19:09<sarnold>me too, it was great fun for a few years
19:09<sarnold>but then I found debian and got to spend much less time compiling things :)
19:13<esombad>Thanks... Guys... I Appreciate every ones input. All signs seen to point to slackware and debian
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19:18<somiaj>Alot really depends on use case, we here do like debian, but that is to be a given, often times software needs can make a big difference, it the software you like to run isn't in debian, then debian might not be best for you
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19:21<aPpYe>Hello, I am using a bash script to call other scripts, one per line (bash /path/to/, followed by bash /path/to/, etc.) if I have "set -e" in and something fails there, the whole process exits. I would like it to only stop processing further lines in, but then still continue to run I hope this make sense. Can someone help?
19:21<aPpYe>Is this possible?
19:22<sarnold>aPpYe: remove 'set -e' from the main script, and add set -e to all the other scripts
19:22<aPpYe>I tried that, but it still exits the whole thing.
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19:29<aPpYe>and set -e in the main script does not seem to be working at all ...?
19:30<somiaj>I do note that you are doing 'bash foo' each time, this is launching a new shell to run each script, would 'source' or '.' change things?
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19:36<somiaj>aPpYe: also wonder if maybe 'bash foo || true', this should make it exit true not matter what, and thus should continue on to the next script would help
19:36<somiaj>though my shell-fu is weak
19:38<aPpYe>hmm. I should clarify. I just noticed that things work the way I want if I call the script from the terminal. These are scripts that occur at login, directly calling an excecutable script using startup tasks in cinnamon ... I know they are not completing because I should have a process running in the background that isn't doing it when called that way.
19:40<aPpYe>there we go. I was not using bash to call the first script and I should be doing that. All good now! No need for the first script to be executable I guess.
19:40<ham5urg_>Is there any lightsout-management-server where I could install Debian onto the management-unit?
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19:42<sarnold>ham5urg_: this kind of thing?
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19:44<ham5urg_>sarnold, not bad.
19:44<ham5urg_>The only 'thing', it is outside of the servers case.
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19:46<sarnold>I'm pretty sure I've seen photos of machines where it's been stuck inside the case :) heh
19:46<ham5urg_>a tiny sodimm rpi clicked onto a pci-card, inside a server.
19:47<sarnold>that'd be so much cleaner
19:47<sarnold>you might be able to do something with sorts of devices but I know even less about these :)
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19:48<sarnold>the raptorcs guys build them into their servers running
19:49<sarnold>and a raptorcs community member wrote his own alternative because of course he did :)
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19:52<ham5urg_>This is a GPU too. Nice approach to get the video output.
19:52<ham5urg_>An rpi, faking a GPU inside a PCI slot, hehehe.
19:53<sarnold>yeah, very handy for video output :) just don't expect it to be fast..
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20:00<ham5urg_>It's a shame to have non-standarized lightsout-management. No one knows how many bugs are in these OSs. Countless.
20:00<sarnold>so many
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20:48<tjcarter>The thing I really wish I could do was have realtime access to the Pi GPIO bus.
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20:50<tjcarter>because access to the GPIO is basically through the videocore side of things, you wind up able to get about 20MHz as about the best precision you can get away with.
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20:54<tjcarter>There's a project for the Apple II series that couples an Orange Pi (similar sort of problem) with an ARM Cortex chip to bit-bang the Apple II's parallel 8-bit bus and effectively take over video output. Can't do that with just a Pi, not even a Pi Compute module, because you don't have enough precision on the GPIO timings to bit-bang a 2MHz bus. 😞
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20:55<tjcarter>(If someone can think of a board that could do better and has a build of bullseye for it, lemme know.)
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21:44<Sqrt{not}>(testing current rufus(windows) in ISO mode, to refute bad wiki edit discussed earlier --- currently s-l-o-w-l-y "formatting" the USB stick prior to writing the image to it)
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21:46<jkc>Slow-format (or format at all) isn't needed to test that.
21:46<jkc>Since its going to create the filesystem as part of the process anyway.
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21:47<Sqrt{not}>agree. I just want to get the result, and compare it to the original downloaded image
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21:49<Sqrt{not}>to be clear, formatting was not my idea, it is being done by rufus ISO mode -- already confirmed rufus DD mode makes a perfect copy of the image
21:49<Sqrt{not}>(and the dd mode does not format the stick first)
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21:50<jkc>My issue with how the wiki currently reads is this: DD works, period, just how cp/dd works on Linux. ISO mode "seems" to work "most of the time."
21:52<jkc>The veritable mountain range of evidence and experience that says "don't use ISO mode" isn't easily swept away by someone claiming, in a vacuum, that "now it works" "as of Debian 10.10."
21:52<Sqrt{not}>I can nowconfirm that ISO mode alters the image in the newest rufus version. I don't care if it seems to work, it is not the debian image.
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21:52<Sqrt{not}>I will fix the wiki
21:53<jkc>I was gonna say. Of course it does. It always does. It always has.
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21:54<dvs>except for dd mode
21:54<jkc>dvs: Correct. That's what we're discussing. A wiki edit has been telling people that ISO mode is now recommended because "now it works."
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21:55<jkc>Extraordinary claims and all that.
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22:01<Sqrt{not}>jkc, BCMM, pabs, edited to restore advice always to use DD mode in rufus.
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22:56-!-jmiller is "..." on #debian
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22:57-!-GenTooMan is "realname" on #debian #debian-games #debian-next #debian-rust
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23:04-!-mentor is "Matthew W.S. Bell" on #debian #contextshift
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23:12-!-gce108 is "realname" on #ovirt #debian-offtopic #debian
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23:16-!-awal1 is "realname" on #debian-devel-changes #debian-next #debian
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23:33-!-aqoa is "realname" on #debian
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23:38-!-pranith is "realname" on #linux-rt #kernelnewbies #llvm #debian
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23:42-!-newtons is "newtons" on #debian
23:45<aqoa>can someone help me with Nvidia drivers? i have installed the package but it wont become active
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23:48-!-mode/#debian [+l 986] by debhelper
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23:48-!-hybridwipe is "realname" on #debian #debian-next #msys2 #msys2-ci #llvm #llvmlinux
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23:49-!-pallida is "eargt" on #debian #C
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---Logclosed Sat Aug 28 00:00:13 2021