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#debian IRC Logs for 2021-09-06

---Logopened Mon Sep 06 00:00:26 2021
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02:41<Dami>Hello everyone,
02:41<Dami>I would like to ask if there is a mechanism for checking compatibility of open source protocols on debian
02:42<selckin>what are open source protocols
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02:46<Dami>Or for example, my program uses GPLv3. Is there a mechanism to detect whether the open source protocol of the dependent library I use is compatible?
02:46<raven523>do you mean the license?
02:46<raven523>not protocol?
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02:47<raven523>I'm not sure. I think I heard of some license checking servive, but I can't remember its name, and I don't know if there's a version for Debian. Someone else here might know
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02:49<selckin>the lawyers usually aren't even sure, so now there is automation, except the obvious bits
02:50<selckin>search for 'free software license' gonna be more relevant then anything with protocol
02:50<raven523>the Linux Foundation does sponsor some tools for this:
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02:52<Dami> raven523:i will try , thank you
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02:57<twb>Dami: if you do not distribute Debian itself, you are probably OK
02:57<twb>Dami: if Debian gives you software that Debian wasn't licensed to, Debian is in trouble -- not you
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03:00<Dami>twb:Thanks i know
03:01<Dami>I just want to make sure that there is no problem with my program
03:02<twb>Are you distributing your program to your customers?
03:02<twb>Dami: or do you just run it on your own systems?
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03:03<Dami>Need to distribute, I know the GPL
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03:04<twb>Dami: so you basically just want to say something like this? "my GPL'd program uses libcurl, libzstd, and libpg5 -- how do I check the licenses of those three libraries?"
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03:05<somiaj>Dami: every debian package contains license info in /usr/share/packagename/copyright
03:06<twb>If that is your goal, work out the package name, then check /usr/share/doc/<package name>/copyright. Many/most are machine-readable in "DEP-5" format.
03:06<somiaj>arg /usr/share/doc/packagename/copyright (forgot doc)
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03:07<Dami>twb:Yes, I would also like to know whether there is such a license compatibility mechanism, and whether it can automatically detect and give solutions to license incompatibility
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03:07<twb>Dami: as far as I know, there is no automatic mechanis
03:08<Dami>somiaj: I know this too, thank you
03:08<twb>Prior to GPL3, things licensed as GPL2+ really only had to watch out for OpenSSL
03:08<twb>Now that GPL3 isn't a universal receiver, it's messy and I don't have a good answer
03:09<twb>Dami: sorry if we are telling you things you already know -- I'm not sure exactly which bit of info you are missing :-(
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03:10<PaddyF>Dami: are you looking for something like this:
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03:18<Dami>My English is not good, maybe it was not good just now, as twb said,my GPL'd program uses libcurl, libzstd, and libpg5 .etc,Is there a license compatibility regulation, and is the license used by my program compatible with the license of the dependent library?
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03:19<twb>if you hold copyright over your own program, then it doesn't matter
03:20<twb>Because you, the copyright owner, don't need a license to distribute copies
03:20<twb>And anything in Debian that your app is using, will be DFSG-compliant and therefore OK under its own license
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03:21<umlaeute>what's the minimum disk-space required for a Debian-11 installation? one of my VMs (running an NFS-client, ssh, a slapd-proxy and fail2ban) used to work fine with 2GB of disk since about a decade (always upgrading the system). the upgrade process has become increasingly more difficult due to the disk constraints (e.g. in buster i had to remove /lib/modules/* before installing a new kernel), but now in
03:21<umlaeute>bullseye i'm down to about 150MB free space, which makes it almost impossible to even run "apt update".
03:21<Dami>twb:But my program will depend on other libraries, and other libraries have their own licenses
03:22<umlaeute>the system is a login server, which i would like to keep as restricted as possible, that's why i want to keep available disk super low
03:22<twb>Dami: right but those have to be allowed -- otherwise Debian could not give them to you
03:22<somiaj>umlaeute: 2gig is stated as the minimum in the docs, but a lot depends on what you install and run, and other data.
03:22<twb>umlaeute: I can calculate that fairly easily
03:22<twb>umlaeute: do you need NFSv4 support? If not, klibc-utils has a NFSv3-only client
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03:23<twb>umlaeute: sshguard can protect e.g. nginx without needing fail2ban's python3 dependency
03:23<Dami>twb:Dealing with debian, I also want to publish on other linux systems, I think this is a problem that needs my attention
03:23<umlaeute>somiaj: as i said: i need NFS, ssh-daemon, slapd and fail2ban
03:24<umlaeute>twb: i don't even have a webserver; it's only an ssh server. but i guess "sshguard" might be able to protect that just as well...
03:24<twb>umlaeute: it can. Also tinysshd lets you not ship an ssh client
03:24<twb>unless you need SFTP. I recommend rsync instead.
03:24<umlaeute>need sftp. and and ssh-client (so people can hop off the login server)
03:25<umlaeute>ah yes: and then there is remote logging (i use syslog-ng), and I use rkhunter/tripwire to check the system's integrity
03:25<twb>umlaeute: does syslog-ng implement RELP, or only syslog?
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03:25<somiaj>umlaeute: have you checked where your space is being used, are you getting lots of logs taking space in /var? I did a standard system utilities install of debian bullseye yesterday, it took 750megs, so maybe you have other stuff taking up space you can use to trim things down (though upgrading from buster->bullseye you might want to add extra space just for downloading the packages)
03:26<umlaeute>iirc, i still log via udp; so not very RELP
03:26<umlaeute>somiaj: no; unfortunately it is mosly /usr/lib/
03:26<Tj>umlaeute: if the only issues is during upgrades, what's stopping you increasing the VM's storage space, resizing the file system to use the new space, do the install, clean up, then shrink it again?
03:26<twb>I highly recommend RELP which is easy with rsyslog
03:27<twb>Ugh no sshguard in stable because reasons
03:27<twb>I guess you'll just have to live with fail2ban for now
03:27<twb>umlaeute: is slapd-proxy just slapd package?
03:27<umlaeute>twb: ad slapd: yes
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03:28<umlaeute>twb: right; my logging machine uses syslog-ng; anything that can send logging to it is welcome (so: i don't really need "syslog-ng" on my minimal system)
03:29<twb>then busybox-syslogd
03:29<twb>except that is not compatible with systemd anymore because reasons
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03:29<twb>so realistically your best option is rsyslogd or syslog-ng
03:29<umlaeute>Tj: hmm yes; never through about that. for what it is worth: i somehow managed to update buster->bullsyeye on that machine; only now it is giving me troubles
03:29<twb>mmdebstrap bullseye /tmp/delete-me.squashfs --variant=apt --include=linux-image-generic,init,live-boot,openssh-server,nfs-common,fail2ban,slapd ==> 152MiB (after compression)
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03:30*themill wonders what kernel "-generic" matches
03:31<twb>Before compression, 784MiB
03:31<twb>themill: on amd64, -amd64
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03:31<Dami>PaddyF:dfsg-faq is usefull thanks
03:31<twb>umlaeute: you can save a little bit by stripping out the documentation, and using a VM-only kernel, or no kernel (and a container)
03:32<twb>cloud-only makes 784MiB drop to 515MiB
03:32<umlaeute>that might be an interesting option.
03:32<themill>twb: ah, that has a Provides now, very handy
03:32<twb>themill: /me nods vigorously
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03:33<umlaeute>i think i setup the original VM when the cloud-kernels were not a thing yet.
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03:34<twb> is a complete script that emits a 256MB EFI image
03:34<twb>Note that if you use live-boot like this, you need a bit more RAM
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03:35<twb>If your goal is "harden the system" more than "more code = more bad", then I also strongly encourage you to look at "systemd-analyze security" and possibly also "aa-genprof"
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03:35<twb>Having either of those confining your daemons is a quick and easy way to provide a layer of paranoia hardening
03:36<umlaeute>thanks. and yes: hardening is the core idea
03:36<twb>Here is an example web app written in C, that is fully hardened (e.g. not allowed to make TCP connections)
03:37<twb>If you're *REALLY* paranoid, like, you're making an air-to-ground missile, I recommend seL4
03:37<umlaeute>not there yet
03:38<Tj>umlaeute: you could also add an exclusion to dpkg so docs/man etc don't get installed at all, e.g.
03:41<umlaeute>Tj: sidenote: i always wondered why this isn't enabled in the docker images by default (together with APT::Get::Assume-Yes).
03:41<umlaeute>or is it, these days?
03:41<umlaeute>with "the docker images" i mean: "the official Debian docker images"
03:42<twb>Oh and my company knows lots about this, so if you have lots of money you can hire us:
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03:43<tarzeau>twb: hardening or sel4?
03:43<twb>tarzeau: the former.
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03:44<twb>umlaeute: those things aren't done in the official images because there are legitimate reasons to not want them. For example, if you don't speak English :-)
03:44<umlaeute>fair enough.
03:45<twb>Alpine Linux can get smaller than Debian, if you don't need glibc
03:45<raven523>a lot of stuff that needs glibc does work with musl if you have gcompat
03:45<twb>on NTOSkrnl it's like 7MB vs. 70MB
03:46<twb>I can't vouch for Alpine's security team though
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03:47<twb>raven523: IIUC that is for when you don't have source access to the problem daemon?
03:47<raven523>yes, or for something that depends on glibc-specific behavior or functionality
03:48<twb>But like, if you have source, you just recompile with musl-gcc?
03:48<twb>Or is gcompat still useful there?
03:48<raven523>you can recompile against musl, but that may cause problems for programs that need specific extensions that are specific to glibc
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03:49<twb>So far in my limited experience, when I've hit problems I've just said "OK, $project gets Debian" instead of trying to debug them :-)
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04:01<rogr>morning chaps
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04:03<bolnav[m]>Hello. Why does aptitude upgrading libreoffice-<various pkgs> from bullseye to backports see a pakcage conflict? Pure Debian with standard sources.list, etc.
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04:04<bolnav[m]>I don't understand the logic. It first complains about libuno-sal3 (why?) but later it still proposes to upgrade it.
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04:06<bolnav[m]>Instead, if the problem is that a new package would be installed libbox2d2.3.0, then why mentioning libuno-sal3 at all
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04:07<somiaj>bolnav[m]: its due to pinning, so any depends won't be automatically pulled in from backports
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04:08<somiaj>personally I suggest installing the stable version, 'apt install libreoffice', then upgrading it to backports, 'apt -t bullseye-backports install libreoffice', note the -t bullseye-backports changes the pinning for that run so it can then pull in the depends it needs
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04:08<somiaj>the reason I do this in two steps is to only get the depends in backports that are mandatory, installed of all possible
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04:09<somiaj>though note, you could just add a -t bullseye-backports to your aptitude command and it should work.
04:09<themill>is there actually a version in bullseye-backports yet?
04:10<themill>rmadison says yes and judd says know... I wonder if judd needs a kick
04:10<themill>dpkg, fix judd
04:10*dpkg takes judd to the vet for a "special" visit.
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04:19<bolnav[m]>somiaj, thanks
04:19<bolnav[m]>With -t it complains about two packages from the same src:libreoffice, but then it also allows to upgrade them. I will choose this option. For curiosity, it's because they are reverse dependencies, and is there a way to have aptitude be silent about this also?
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04:24<FH_thecat>I just need to empty /proc/kmsg
04:24<FH_thecat>when I do: cat /proc/kmsg > /var/log/kmesg
04:24<FH_thecat>it hangs
04:24<FH_thecat>presumably waiting for more data
04:24<FH_thecat>how can I tell cat to finish after reading last line ?
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04:25<themill>,v libreoffice --release bullseye-backports
04:25<judd>Package: libreoffice on amd64 -- bullseye-backports: 1:7.1.5-2~bpo11+1
04:25<themill>that's better
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04:30<Dami>Hello everyone, my software uses GPLv3 and the dependent library uses GPLv2. According to, it is incompatible. Is there any way to deal with it?
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04:31<raven523>is the dependent library GPLv2 only, or is it GPLv2 or later?
04:32<Dami>only GPLv2
04:32<raven523>you have to change your license or fidn another library to use
04:33<raven523>or ask the copyright holders to change their license
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04:34<Dami>Can I modify the cpp file that uses the dependent library to GPLv2?
04:34<raven523>no. It's still linked with the rest of your work, so the whole work has to be GPLv2 compatible
04:35<Dami>Or whether my program supports GPLv3 and GPLv2 at the same time
04:35<raven523>you can't support both
04:35<raven523>wait, no
04:35<raven523>you can license your code under GPLv2 only
04:36<themill>think of it as a Venn diagram... there has to be a region of overlap where all the licences agree.
04:36<raven523>GPLv2 or later is not valid because it links to GPLv2 only code
04:36<azeem>Dami can relicense (if possible) their code to GPLv2+, that would be enough
04:37<azeem>though in practise it would means it is distributed as GPLv2 due to the dependency
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04:39<Dami>If I don’t change my license, which means that I cannot use this GPLv2 dependent library, right?
04:39<themill>You can use it, you can't distribute it
04:40<twb>somiaj: your -t bullseye-backports is short, but SLIGHTLY dangerous -- new deps will preferentially be fulfilled from backports
04:40<Dami>themill:I just need to distribute
04:41<twb>somiaj: I would do that with show versions on, and eyeball it.
04:41<twb>somiaj: for scripting, I hard-code all the intermediaries I want to come from backports :-(
04:41<somiaj>twb: I know, but it is the suggested way to install software from backports, hence why I said first install from stable, then upgrae to backports only installing what is required from backports.
04:41<themill>Dami: in that case, you need compatible licences
04:41<Dami>OK, thanks
04:41<twb> <-- ugleeee
04:42<somiaj>imo pinning doens't fully allow for some of the subtilies of installing software from backports
04:43<somiaj>but in general if you install stable first, then upgrade to the backport version, it should only install what is needed, since it won't pull in new packages if the depends are already met
04:46<Dami>If I use a dependency library that relies on GPLv2 and release it, what will be the consequences
04:47<raven523>if your code is GPLv2, then it's ok
04:47<raven523>if your code is not GPLv2 then the library's authors can sue you for copyright infringement
04:48<scorpion2185[m]>what happened to revolt? the webkit process goes to 90% CPU
04:48<scorpion2185[m]>I can't use it
04:48<twb>somiaj: you're assuming that frobozz/bullseye and frobozz/bullseye-backports have identical/similar Depends
04:49<twb>As a specific counter-example I hit today, python3-scrapy has ~5 changes to Depends. If any of those ALSO had backports, you'd inadvertently get those
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05:00<otisolsen70>I am upgrading from buster -> bullseye. I did s/buster/bullseye/g in /etc/apt/sources.list and now have this: But this fails with 404 on Err:3 bullseye/updates Release
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05:00<otisolsen70>So what line in source.list do I need to change into what?
05:01<raven523>replace "bullseye/updates" with "bullseye-security"
05:02<twb>otisolsen70: you should read the Release Notes
05:03<jm_>chapter 4.7.2
05:03<otisolsen70>twb, I did. But I missed this part.
05:03<jm_>4.2.7 even
05:03<twb>otisolsen70: ^ it has other important stuff, like what things aren't security supported
05:03<otisolsen70>Found it now.
05:03<scorpion2185[m]>new python3-matrix-nio fixs mirage
05:03<twb>otisolsen70: ok, cool
05:03<twb>otisolsen70: sorry to jump on you :-)
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05:05<otisolsen70>np, reading the release notes is good advice :)
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05:17<Dami>raven523:Hello. I have another question. My program relies on two libraries. Do I need to do a license compatibility test between these two libraries?
05:18<Dami>How can I detect it?
05:18<raven523>you would have to read the licenses
05:18<twb>with great difficulty
05:18<twb>There's a big ol graph somewhere of what licenses can be used together
05:19<twb>with BSD0 at one end, and GPL2+ at the other end.
05:21<Dami>twb: Could you please provide me with it?
05:22<twb>Dami: I'd have to go find it
05:23<Dami>thank you very much
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05:24<Dami>I am also trying to find
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05:25<Dami>Except for ol graph, are there any other specifications used?
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06:06<rojin>Installing dwm along with nodm in a minimal install boots into dwm and doesnt respond to input?
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06:14<Mazesolo28>met sore...
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06:37<ASC>Hi! Please tell me: Is Partman have capability to leave untouched any pre-configured partitions? I.e., may I create additional partitions for installation and do not touch pre-configured ones at all?
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06:38<twb>ASC: yes, partman can create new partitions while leaving existing ones untouched,
06:38<twb>ASC: for example, if Windows is already installed, Debian can be installed without touching Windows partition
06:41<EmleyMoor>Any good way to read CPU temperature on the command line?
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06:47<EmleyMoor>I shall check the fans on my comms box later as it seems one may have failed.
06:49<pert>EmleyMoor: you might have acpitool already installed, try: acpitool --thermal
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06:51<crawler_>I use sensors from lm-sensors
06:53<twb>EmleyMoor: an easy to remember old command is "acpi --everything"
06:53<twb>The actual data lives in /sys where you can just "cat" it
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06:55<bolnav[m]>twb: wrt your link above, what about $(aptitude search '?installed ?source-package(libreoffice)' -F%p | tr '\n' ' ')
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06:56<twb>AFAICT all three of those packages are 1) super old; 2) not installed by default. Of the three, lm-sensors is probably the most sensible.
06:57<twb>bolnav[m]: that will install *everything* libreoffice creates, which is over 100 packages?
06:57<twb>bolnav[m]: oh never mind, I see
06:57<twb>bolnav[m]: yes that would probably work. The "tr" isn't needed. You also want --disable-columns
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06:58<twb>bolnav[m]: you'd need to shove /bullseye-backports on the end of each though. if you're doing -t bullseye-backports, that trick isn't needed at all
06:59<EmleyMoor>Looks like the temperature is on a slow but steady rise - so I will have to check fans later today
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07:00<bolnav[m]>I guess I do want backports deps as long as they come from the same libreoffice source package, but not deps coming from other source packages
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07:15<rojin>Hi, my client quit last time. I was trying to install dwm alongside nodm and after the automatic logging into dwm, my keyboard and mice dont work.
07:16<rony>EmleyMoor: a watter cooler on cpu and 1 or 2 fans to ensure flow of air for the graphics board is all you need. no pc will overheat aside inside a greenhouse. but if you want more fans keep coming.
07:17<twb>rojin: are you sure that's not just dwm doing what it does?
07:17<twb>rojin: by default, dwm does not bind many/any keys
07:17<rojin>I was able to get dwm working with lightdm.
07:17<rojin>I am thinking its nodm then.
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07:19<rojin>With nodm, I cant even switch to a tty. Had to do a few reinstalls.
07:19<twb>Did you try Ctrl+Alt+F1 all the way through to F7 ?
07:19<twb>X can start on unexpected ttys nowadays, not always F7
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07:21<rojin>Tried from F1 to F6. Tried stopping X server with Ctrl+ALT+Backspace or DEL whatever that is.
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07:21<rojin>The system just doesnt respond.
07:21<twb>Ctrl+Alt+Backspace is disabled by default these days. Look up "DontZap"
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07:22<twb>rojin: only other thing I can suggest is to either SSH in, or "journalctl -b-1" to try to diagnose
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07:29<Brigo>it would be worth it to check /var/log/Xorg.0.log too.
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08:31<Trooper>Hi everybody
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08:35<petn-randall>hi Trooper
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08:36<Trooper>petn-randall, hi. Somebody can help me with a doubt?
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08:39<petn-randall>Trooper: It's best to just ask away, and someone knowing the answer will respond.
08:42<Trooper>petn-randall, thanks
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08:44<Trooper>I got an issue with the signatures verification since a couple of weeks ago
08:45<petn-randall>Trooper: Signatures for what exactly? There are many places where signatures are used.
08:45<Trooper>When I update the system, always appears the same message
08:46<grove>`apt update`?
08:46<petn-randall>Trooper: Ah, when you run `apt update` or something similar?
08:46<Trooper>grove that's right
08:47<dpkg>[Basic Apt* Troubleshooting]. To diagnose your problem, we need ALL OF THE FOLLOWING information: 1. complete output of your apt-get/apt/aptitude run (including the command used) 2. output from "apt-cache policy pkg1 pkg2..." for ALL packages mentioned ANYWHERE in the problem, and 3. "apt-cache policy". Use to provide us with this information. Also ask me about <localized errors>.
08:47<petn-randall>Trooper: Can you provide all of the above in a single paste? ^^^
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08:49<grove>If you get a message saying something is wrong/weird when running `apt update`, no packages are involved, so point 2 in there should be easy
08:50<grove>(But the apart from that I agree that it's a good step ahead)
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08:56<Trooper>Sorry, but I don't understand how to do the bat
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08:57<petn-randall>Trooper: Run `apt update` and `apt-cache policy`, and share that output with us on
08:58<petn-randall>Trooper: You can simply copy/paste the complete command + output to that URL and then send us the URL you get when you send it off.
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09:01<Trooper>Sorry the language, I speak spanish but in the spanish channel nobody answer.
09:01<lyr>Hi there. When will bullseye hit ?
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09:02<grove>!tell Trooper about localized errors
09:04<dpkg>Skype is a proprietary cross-platform <VoIP> service and application owned by Microsoft. Debian cannot distribute the application due to its license. See and ask me about <skype amd64> for community-contributed information. Consider using free and secure alternatives: <ekiga>, <empathy>, <jitsi>, <linphone>.
09:05<grove>I don't speak spanish, but the only thing looking unusual in there is the error about the skype repo. Look
09:05<tuxmania>Hi all. Is there a way to upgrade an old squeeze to Bullseye? I am not able to install anything on the machine (cannot reach squeeze mirrors anymore, and unable to update with bullseye sources list)?
09:06<Trooper>grove, you're right
09:06<petn-randall>Trooper: The error you're getting is from the skype repository. You'll need to ask the skype support what's broken here. But my guess is that you can "fix" this issue by downloading the .deb package from and reinstalling it.
09:06<petn-randall>Trooper: To explain: They're signing their repositories, and the key they use to sign it expired. Seems like a rookie mistake to me.
09:06<grove>(oops, bad pressing of <return> there) at microsoft pages for a new key, but first do yourself and the worls a favour and look at the alternatives dpkg mentioned
09:08<Trooper>grove and petn-randall thanks for your help. Have a nice day.
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09:09<abrotman>lyr: there's an email address on that page seems like maybe you'd ask?
09:11<jm_>tuxmania: not directly no - you can find old releases on the archive site
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09:13<grove>tuxmania: Squeeze is really ancient history, I'm not surprised it's not on the main mirrors anymore. It's probably still on (look at if you want to use it. It should be possible to upgrade to Bullseye one major version at a time (i.e. Squeeze->Wheezy->Jessie->Stretch->Buster->Bullseye), but in total it will probably take much longer ...
09:13<grove>... than a reinstall, and things might have changed more than once in between those versions giving you a hell making the intermediate steps work well enough that you can go on
09:14<grove>(nice line change my irssi plugin made there)
09:14<tuxmania>grove: thank you, I understand it. The problem I have is there is a VOIP Xivo on it, and would like to try an update without reinstalling all from scratch
09:15<petn-randall>tuxmania: I'd expect that you can simply reinstall that, too.
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09:16<TheBigK>Im running a debian based buildserver with jenkins installed. On that VM there are disks attached which are coming from fiber channel volumes... and sometimes there are literally thousands of those processes running temporary:
09:16<TheBigK>does anyone have an idea what that could be ?
09:16<tuxmania>I guess my tiny little hope just disappeared! Thank you for your feedbacks
09:16<grove>!based on debian
09:16<dpkg>Your distribution may be based on and have software in common with Debian, but it is not Debian. We don't and cannot know what changes were made by your distribution (compare #debian only supports Debian and pure <blend>s; please respect our choice to volunteer here to help Debian users. Support for other distributions is off-topic on #debian, even if your own distro's channel is clueless or non-existent.
09:17<TheBigK>im sorry, its debian. its not based debian ;)
09:17<petn-randall>tuxmania: Your hope for what exactly? Both options should work fine, reinstalling just might be less time-consuming.
09:17<jm_>those are kernel threads
09:17<TheBigK>its debian 10 atm... soonish
09:17<TheBigK>i know that those are kernel threads... but i dont know why they suddenly appear and then disappear
09:18<grove>You said "debian based", that can mean both, so I just wanted to be sure
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09:18<TheBigK>grove: completely fine with me, sorry for not describing better
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09:20<grove>I don't recall having seen process/threads named like that, but I generally don't look much at kernel threads
09:21<tuxmania>petn-randall: little hope for avoiding reinstall. But I have a very old debian, and a very old Xivo. Both need to be updated. I will try an update first as I am not sure to be able to reconfigure it as needed
09:23<grove>tuxmania: If you know where all it's config files are, you can probably just copy those, if any changes are necessary, changes are that you'll also have to make them in the upgrade process
09:24<grove>(But I've never heard of that xivo stuff before)
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09:25<tuxmania>grove: it is a VOIP server based on Asterisk
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09:30<grove>(I duckduckgo'ed my way to their homepage, but knowing that doesn't change the fact that I have no idea if the old config will work with a new version, but as it's software that is not in Debian's repo that might complicate an upgrade - to the point of the impossible)
09:32<tuxmania>yes, I might be closer to impossible than possible. Using a very old postgresql version also..
09:35<TheBigK>im now a little closer to why this happens... its a build process that starts those kernel threads... the build process is creating docker images and doing stuff
09:35<TheBigK>im not quite sure whats going on... but i hope i can find out
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09:47<lyr>thanks abrotman
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09:58<TheBigK>i decided that those kworker threads are just fine.. didnt see much a problem with it... changed the check that kernel threads are beeing omitted... thanks for your help :)
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10:08<petn-randall>hi kidx
10:08<kidx>I am wondering how do i install the amd gpu drivers and corectrl on debian 11
10:08<petn-randall>kidx: They come with the kernel, no need to install them extra.
10:09<kidx>are they propiatary?
10:09<kidx>ok what about corectrl
10:09<kidx>the mesa driver is out of date
10:09<kidx>latest is 21 somthing
10:09<petn-randall>kidx: What does corectrl do? It's not part of Debian AFAIK.
10:10<kidx>is allows me to control my gpu fan speed
10:10<kidx>also clock it
10:10<chats>Hello everyone. I need some advice. I'm changing my graphics card from an AMD HD5750 to an nVidia GT1030. Can I just swap the cards without making any prior software changes?
10:10<kidx>its a must for any amd gpu owner
10:11<petn-randall>kidx: Looks like a GUI to the already existing tuning knobs. Just install it from their website.
10:11<petn-randall>chats: yes
10:11<kidx>it wont install
10:11<kidx>I tried any way you can help?
10:11<kidx>maybe I am doing somthing wrong
10:11<petn-randall>kidx: At which part of the installation did you get stuck?
10:12<kidx>building it
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10:12<chats>thanks petn-randall. My card will arrive in a couple of days, I'll just swap them and hope nothing blows up!
10:13<petn-randall>kidx: Care to be a little more specific?
10:13<kidx>i download the source
10:13<petn-randall>kidx: You can for example show us the output of the build on
10:13<kidx>and try to build it nothing
10:14<kidx>i get errors
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10:19<petn-randall>kidx: Are you following the steps from ? There's a list of software you need to install before building it. cmake is one of them.
10:20<kidx>how do i install cmke
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10:20<petn-randall>kidx: The package is called 'cmake'.
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10:24<petn-randall>kidx: Did you install other the other things listed there?
10:25<petn-randall>They're not optional.
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10:26<petn-randall>*all the other things
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10:27<kidx>i am trying to install all
10:27<kidx>and see so far nothing
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10:33<petn-randall>kidx: I recommend you use aptitude and search for 'libqt' to list any Qt related libraries, and check if one of those applies to the list on their website. You will have to manually map the requirements to package names.
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10:44<CrazyblocksTech>I am currently on Debian Sid, how do I switch to the stable Bullseye release?
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10:45<petn-randall>CrazyblocksTech: You don't, downgrading is not supported. You can reinstall however.
10:45<dpkg>Downgrading is not, nor will ever be supported by apt. Programs change their data in a way that can't be rolled back, and package maintainer scripts support upgrades to new config file formats but not downgrades. Try: "dpkg -i olderversion.deb" or "aptitude install package=version" using "apt-cache policy package" to get the old version number. See also <partial downgrade>, <unstable->testing>, <sdo>.
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10:45<CrazyblocksTech>Oh, ok thank you
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10:47<petn-randall>CrazyblocksTech: You *can* try downgrading, and it might work, as the drift between bullseye and sid is quite small. But you might subtly break things you'll only notice in a few weeks/months, so it's safer to reinstall.
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10:54<ASC>There is also capability of creating chrooted Debian of different releases. It may be not exactly a thing like installed instrance. However, one may use for paling with Sid and return back after all. Here it is -
10:55<CrazyblocksTech>Planning to reinstall since it is going to be needed anyway soon
10:56<petn-randall>CrazyblocksTech: Cool! Feel free to ask here if you need help with that.
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11:13<kidx>trying to install all the libqt
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11:18*tjcarter redoes the whole aptitude theme because the defaults look like ass
11:19<tjcarter>Turns out the docs for the styles are out of date, hence why some of them don't work. The source is authoritative as usual.
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11:19<tjcarter>Aptitude's source is a complex nightmare of mostly undocumented code, of course.
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11:24<kidx>yea this is not install
11:25<kidx> Add the installation prefix of "Qt5Quick" to CMAKE_PREFIX_PATH or set
11:25<kidx> "Qt5Quick_DIR" to a directory containing one of the above files. If
11:25<dpkg>Do not paste more than 2 lines to this channel. Instead, use for text: | pics/screenshots: or | large files up to 100MB (think tar.gz): | Remember to tell us the URL of your paste! Cannot cut and paste? Ask me about <pastebinit>, <nopaste>, <termbin>.
11:26<tjcarter>Friendly reminder 🙂
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11:35<netcrash>Did the report of this a few time ago , and had no reply to today. any ideas?
11:36<judd>Bug in isc-dhcp-server (open): «Fwd: Issue with isc-dhcp-server init.d script»; severity: normal; opened: 2021-06-26; last modified: 2021-06-26.
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11:38<kidx>going to lay down
11:38<kidx>ill work on it more when i awake
11:39<petn-randall>netcrash: I would have put those into two different bug reports, as those are two distinct bugs. Since both bugs seem to apply to oldstable, I don't think they will be fixed there. But if they still apply to testing, chances are higher they'll still be fixed.
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12:36<BCMM>how long does it usually take for a message to appear on the bug tracker? trying to work out if i've done it wrong or am just being impatient
12:38<pert>BCMM: five minutes is plenty of time to wait, I think. did you use reportbug?
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12:46<BCMM>pert: can you use that for replies? i was trying to send a patch to #927786
12:46<judd>Bug in wit (open): «wit: wfuse is not included anymore»; severity: important; opened: 2019-04-23; last modified: 2019-04-23.
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12:48<pert>BCMM: usually if you want to reply, you should just use 'Reply' in your email program (if you already have the bug in your inbox), or use the reply button on the web page
12:48<BCMM>pa_: i did the second one. just a plain-text email with a .patch attachment should be fine, right?
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12:49<pert>yup, that should open your regular email program. as long as that's set up correctly, it should work
12:50<BCMM>the mailto: link ain't the problem here. i've got it in my sent box and all that
12:51<pert>can you check what the To: address was? and what mail program are you using?
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12:52<BCMM>to with Roundcube
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12:54<pert>that looks alright. I would suggest trying to send it again, and if that doesn't work, contact they're the people that run it; you might be getting stuck in a spam filter or something
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13:04<BCMM>oh, i've got a bounce message from my own mail provider
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13:04<BCMM>(i forgot that i filter everything about bugs in to its own folder)
13:04<BCMM>sorry about that. i'll retry, and then bother mxroute about it if it won't let me
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13:11<BCMM>ugh, turns out this is why:
13:12<BCMM>now, i have no idea what the actual rfc says about this, but rspamd has taken a dislike to plain text that is unnecessarily encoded with base64
13:12<BCMM>but it doesn't seem right for them to filter on that when *their own webmail service* does it!
13:14<pert>right? if they thought you were sending spam, why wouldn't they take a look into that and see about taking corrective action? I hope your mail provider comes to their senses
13:16<bittin>the Debconf 2021 group photo is now uploaded too its final destination:
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13:20<user_>Hey there
13:20<HAL_6900>Debian Stretch is old old stable now. Nevertheless, it will get Kernel updates?
13:20-!-trekkie1701c [] has quit [Quit: :P]
13:21<bremner>probably not
13:21<bremner>well, check with LTS
13:21<dpkg>Debian Long Term Support (LTS) is a project to extend the lifetime of all Debian stable releases to (at least) 5 years. Debian LTS is not handled by the Debian security team, but by a separate group of volunteers and companies. Ask me about <jessie-lts> and <stretch-lts> and see for more information. #debian-lts on
13:21<dpkg>Security support for Debian 9 "stretch" from the Debian Security Team ended July 6 2020. The <LTS> team will continue to provide limited security support for some architectures and a subset of packages until June 30 2022 (total 5 year life). See for more information
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13:24<petn-randall>hi tytech038
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13:24<tytech038>should i go to a different channel if i need help?
13:25-!-tytech038 [] has quit []
13:25<petn-randall>tytech038: Depends on what you need help on. Ask y ...
13:25<dpkg>Another happy customer leaves the building.
13:26<HAL_6900>You see. I am having some issues with Kernel 4.9.0-16... and I am not alone with this problem. See bug #990423.
13:26<judd>Bug in src:linux (open): «stretch kernel 4.9.0-16-amd64 crashes randomly»; severity: normal; opened: 2021-06-28; last modified: 2021-07-05.
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13:26<somiaj>I think stretch lts is now supporting the 4.19 backports kernel and not 4.9 anymore
13:27<judd>Available kernel versions are: experimental: 5.13.0-trunk-686 (5.13.12-1~exp1); sid: 5.10.0-8-686 (5.10.46-4); bullseye: 5.10.0-8-686 (5.10.46-4); buster-backports: 5.10.0-0.bpo.8-686 (5.10.46-4~bpo10+1); buster: 4.19.0-17-686-pae (4.19.194-3); stretch-backports: 4.19.0-0.bpo.9-686-pae (4.19.118-2+deb10u1~bpo9+1); stretch: 4.19.0-0.bpo.17-686-pae (4.19.194-3~deb9u1); jessie-backports:
13:27<judd>4.9.0-0.bpo.6-686-pae (4.9.88-1+deb9u1~bpo8+1); jessie: 4.9.0-0.bpo.12-686 (4.9.210-1+deb9u1~deb8u1); bookworm: 5.10.0-8-686 (5.10.46-4); bullseye-backports: 5.10.0-8-686 (5.10.46-4)
13:27<somiaj>yea, look stretch has the 4.19.0 kernel now
13:28<somiaj>you must have not installed the meta package, because you should have upgrade4d to that a while ago on stretch
13:28<another>dpkg: Are you saying insinuating I'm happy? How dare you! /s
13:28<dpkg>i don't know, another
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13:32<HAL_6900>I not installed the meta package.
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13:35<somiaj>you should always install the kernel metapackage, because even new abi changes will require a new package to be installed
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13:40<HAL_6900>I see.
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13:45<urk>Does anyone on here have experience with the LXDE interface? No one has answered in #LXDE for the past several days, and I am wondering how to get rid of a double image of a minimized screen. Also, I can't seem to restore my dual pain icon after deleting it, and don't find it in the panel tools.
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13:48<petn-randall>urk: What OS release are you running?
13:49<urk>petn: I am running Debian 10.9 with Kernel 4.19
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13:51<urk>XFCE corrupted after the last update, and I couldn't get the windows manager to work so I gravitated to LXDE. LXDE is a set of mixed blessing. It is lighter, faster, and has more custom configuration of folders, but folders moved to the panel haven't synced data with folders on the desktop. Additionally it is harder to configure the panel, and there are not as many default panel tools. ONe of the things I liked a lot in XFCE was the cabinet tool with
13:51<urk>the directory tree. It useful so you can access your data in case the windows manager gets corrupted.
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13:53<CryptoSiD>whats the plan regarding the update of libc6?
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13:54<cOOl>urk what are you tweaking there? my bullseye xfce install is working fine since jessy -> upgraded
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13:57<urk>c001: What type of hardware are you running? I couldn't get the upgrade to go through running a Dell XPS15 7590. I have a combination of both Intel and Nvidia hardware components on here. I plan on trying the upgrade again, but next time will try it in emulation mode. I didn't like wht was done to the login screen for credentials, and it lacked clarity, and definition. It had kind of a washed out look. Also, I didn't like the dark background which
13:57<urk>looked more like a night screen, and found it hideous. My system crashed when I tried to change the background color, and the bottom XFCE panel was missing. I could have fixed the panel, but it looks like there were other issues.
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13:58<petn-randall>CryptoSiD: Can you be more specific? In which release are you expecting what kind of update?
13:58<urk>Some Debian developers reported there are still issues with combinations of Intel and Nvidia, but it is being worked on, but everyone else seems to have had a decent experience with the upgrade.
13:59<urk>petn: I am going to stay with Debian 10.9 a little bit longer, and look at upgrading after I arrive in Los Angeles, but next time I will first due the upgrade in emulation mode to make sure there are no hidden surprises.
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14:04*tjcarter ponders that he could wind up with an AMD CPU and an Intel GPU, wouldn't that be weird?
14:05<tjcarter>I will NOT buy nvidia at this point, and when/if GPUs become a reasonable thing again, this RX 580 could use an upgrade.
14:06<somiaj>At this point I'm just use to nvidia, and have accepted to deal with their non-free drivers, though I don't seem to have problems with them compared to some
14:07<tjcarter>The drivers are not great, but the fact that we'd all be using Wayland today if not for their NIHness holding everything back, and then add some rather scummy business practices in the past 12 months … No thanks.
14:07<tomreyn>tjcarter: how would oyu end up with amd cpu and intel gpu? in one system?
14:08<tjcarter>tomreyn: Intel's coming out with discrete GPUs in the next year.
14:08<somiaj>I still wouldn't be using waylend (and suspect many won't) even if it wasn't a driver issue
14:08<somiaj>many wms aren't gonna support wayland anytime soon
14:08<tjcarter>They're showing promise but the drivers ain't there yet.
14:08<tomreyn>tjcarter: yes, and next year's also the year of linux on the desktop
14:09<tjcarter>somiaj: many WMs will never support it. They're written for X11 after all.
14:09-!-BrianG61UK [~BrianG61U@2a02:8010:66b7:dddd:f159:9dbc:5166:5e07] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
14:09<somiaj>excatly, and many users are happy with their wm and see no reason to move to wayland
14:09<petn-randall>urk: petn<tab> ... I don't get notified unless you type the full nick.
14:09<tjcarter>tomreyn: We've already seen one of their DGPU offerings
14:09<tomreyn>intel keeps saying they'll do dedicated gpu's for years, but somehow they never do
14:09<tomreyn>oh then you know more than i do
14:10<tomreyn>hopefully they'll do a separate driver this time
14:10<tjcarter>tomreyn: It was fairly low-end, more suited to a whack-a-dell than gaming, but it was a PCIe graphics card
14:10<tjcarter>And it was sold as bottom of their intended GPU line
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14:11<tomreyn>i wonder whether their dgpu will be faster than amd's apus :)
14:12<tjcarter>somiaj: Most people run DEs, YouTubing bald goateed 20somethings going on about "boomer" this and "boomer" that and how minimalist they are because they use Arch notwithstanding.
14:13<tjcarter>I'm like child, please… One of my computers has 16k of RAM, don't talk to me about minimalism.
14:14<tjcarter>(Also stay off the lawn that I don't have.)
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14:16<urk>Ok. I will now do full-nick:
14:22<dice12_>i am really disapointed to check almost all irc servers on web deny tor, oftc is an exception. thanks oftc to the policy of defense of rights of expression.
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14:23<petn-randall>dice12_: Most people coming through tor unfortunately are trolls, which is why many channels have them banned, too. :/
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14:26<BCMM>pert: as far as i can see, the ultimate blame lies with a change to spamd. they're just outbound filtering because it looks bad for them if a lot of email sent through them is getting filtered by the recipient's mail providers :(
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14:28<BCMM>kind of funny that it's a common enough "mistake" that their own webmail makes it, though
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14:30<dice12_>tor is for sure a good anonimicity mechanism, but, if we force a piece of sensitive information cross thousands of nodes, cant we se in this prism tor is more vulnerable to data leak
14:32<shrew>tor doesn't break encryption..
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14:33<dice12_>for exqample this connection I did without ssl
14:33<BCMM>isn't tor traffic encrypted while it's within tor?
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14:34<BCMM>i mean, there's obviously the issue of trusting the exit node, but as far as i know, the relays in between don't get any "sensitive information"
14:35<BCMM>dice12_: also, other major IRC networks *do* support tor. does, for example.
14:36<BCMM>(they do make you log in, though, because otherwise tor would make it *really* easy for spammers to evade bans)
14:36<netcrash>petn-randall: :\ wait and see I guess
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14:38<dice12_>BCMM: server is right
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14:39<BCMM>i think they have their own onion service
14:40<BCMM>(which, presumably, means they don't want tor traffic connecting to their clearnet server)
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14:43<dice12_>I accept any information about other server channels good to chat by tor, in fact I am feeling already be cool to go offtopic
14:43<urk> petn-randall: I did send data to Termbin so folks in this forum can take a look to why my upgrade failed. I suspect there is a compatibility with the windows manager. Switching subjects, I tried sddm with latest iteration of XFCE4+ and it wouldn't work so I graviated to LXDE for now.
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14:51<tjcarter>I generally thought tor wasn't really logical for irc, then considered that actually it does make sense after all, but ultimately concluded that tor + non-identified = trollolols
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14:57<dice12_>tjcarter: I agree that for most tnot being identified might be a temptetion for a large range of `'plays'... a kind of crime without punishment.
14:57<dice12_>is the human nature
14:58<tjcarter>dice12_: a lot of channels insist on identified with services regardless
14:58<tjcarter>The problem is that not having that with tor basically makes people unbannable.
14:59<tjcarter>Not that bans are extremely effective in the first place.
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15:19<dice12_>even the ones that allow onion requires registration mandatory
15:23<dice12_>I want to access offtopic requires registration, so, email in turn ask your telefone, previous email, birth etc
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15:24<dice12_>then I reluctantlly shot in in topic what should be in offtopic
15:24<EdePopede>dice12_: some do, others don't. still possible to register on irc without full disclosure.
15:25<Sqrt{not}>dice12_, i registered into offtopic here without all that info
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15:40<tuxd3v>aloo_shu, to be honest , I don't know, because in target files there are no Execstart,stop,reload, but you should be able to start a target and stop another in some way, maybe only isolate is the only option, don't know
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15:46<aloo_shu>I think there was another way apart from isolate, but my logic would say starting a target is easier than stopping one, it's not a service
15:49<aloo_shu>i.e. I don't think systemd has a way of tracking which of the units a target is depending on, was already running when the target got invoked, so that it could only stop what's specific to the 'upper' target
15:49<imMute>yeah, I know you can start targets, but I don't think you can stop them (other than isolate)
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16:23<dice12_>I contemplate with sadness the lack of critical mass working on gnu hurd
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16:24<dice12_>we coud have a debian with hurd
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16:30<dice12_>besides all debian is outstanding in current stage.
16:31<aindilis>dice12_: sorry to hear you are feeling sad about this. I'm sad at the lack of critical mass (for certain other projects), so I know how it feels.
16:32<dice12_>to coordinate alllll people to produce a ready piece of OS requeris a level of organization I cant imagine. my teams ranged from 3 to 5 in office.
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16:37<aindilis>dice12_: maybe we should first work on software to coordinate all people?
16:37<dice12_>soon I create an email to expose more inopic
16:37<dice12_>in offtopic
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16:40<aindilis>hrm I cannot join #debian-offtopic for some reason
16:40<aindilis>nor #debian-academy
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16:40<aindilis>Here is some teambuilding software I'm contemplating using:
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16:45<Sqrt{not}>aindilis, you must be registered with nickserv to join some channels, including -offtopic. /msg nickserv help register
16:48<dice12_>I know I will bother a few there, but would be fantastic if more projects appear with supercool GUI. recently I operated an app that was FAST to partition and format,...ok I know exists fdisk, mkfs and etc but the productivity of the app, for example I did in 40secs what took me on ubuntu 30min tor more
16:49<somiaj>gparted is a fairly popular gui app for maniging partitions
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16:51<dice12_>somiaj: yes, true
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16:53<KjetilK>I just upgraded a box that only played the role of a file server, thoroughly firewalled from the Internet by a different box, and stuff broke after upgrade. Investigating it, I found that firewalld was installed and firewalled the box from everything else, it had then only port 22 open.
16:53<dice12_>in the world of syssadmin many lack the concept of RAD took in propramming (rapid application delopment)
16:54<KjetilK>I felt it was something that would have been nice to have known in the release notes, but it might be that it is very marginal case caused by something in my setup
16:55<KjetilK>I didn't keep a record of my database before the upgrade, so I don't know if an upgrade report would be useful
16:55<dice12_>the RAD can be borrosed to sysadmin trough GUI tools
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16:57<dice12_>changing the theme
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16:57<dice12_>I had today to boot grub on recovery mode to reset as passwds
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17:01<dice12_>I am playing the solution like a mantra to not forguet, mount -rw -o remount /
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17:10<Sqrt{not}>KjetilK, if the upgrade broke stuff, you probably should file an upgrade report. If you want to discuss it, or if you need help with it, please give more details here.
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17:13<KjetilK>Sqrt{not}: I don't have much more details, I just did systemctl stop firewalld; systemctl disable firewalld and that solved the problem
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17:13<KjetilK>I can certainly submit an upgrade report, but given the little information I can provide, it may not be terribly useful
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17:20<Sqrt{not}>KjetilK, you mean the upgrade installed a firewall that was not there before? probably a short upgrade report noting something unexpected happening would be appropriate. Doesn't have to go into all gory details, but just note something happened that you didn't expect.
17:21<KjetilK>Right, OK, thanks!
17:21<KjetilK>yes, that seems to be what happened
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17:22<Sqrt{not}>maybe hang onto whatever logs for a while, in case some maintainer wants to ask you about details....
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17:23<KjetilK>is there a way that I can list the history of a package, so that I can see if firewalld was actually installed on upgrade?
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17:28<aindilis>KjetilK: you probably know about /var/log/apt
17:29<mooff>the information should be in /var/log/apt/history.log
17:30<mooff> is the only program i've found that presents it
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17:31<Sqrt{not}>[z]less also works OK
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17:32<Sqrt{not}>I have history.log through history.log.12.gz
17:33<mooff>with history for one package sparsely distributed throughout them
17:33*mooff dreams of a `dpkg --history $pkg`
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17:36<malakim>what program do you recomend to manage a laptop's firewall?
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17:36<dice12_>wthi gui
17:37<malakim>thank you dice12_ i'll look into it
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17:39<aindilis>dice12_: <- another team formation system, but the authors won't release the code due to not being ready.
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18:22<mendel_munkis>is tesseract-ocr known to have issues with named pipes?
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18:35<colemickens>wtf is "ntp-systemd-wrapper" and why is it not better documented?
18:36<colemickens>Given that ntp.service ships with PrivateTmp=true and you ship ntp with DNS-named pools by default... uh...
18:36<colemickens>how is this supposed to work in a default install?
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18:39<aloo_shu>mendel_munkis: IME programs that don't like named pipes (e.g. rsync), are saying so. Much easier to mispredict how a pipe is going to behave in a given situation
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19:05<Sqrt{not}>colemickens, you may have the suggested package ntp-doc installed
19:08<colemickens>upstream ntp docs are not going to tell me how NTP is meant to work in Buster out of the box if it's configured to run in a PrivateTmp and has default DNS pools that require DNS resolution.
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19:10<kaleb9_>greetings for all. I just discovered that youtube block tor.
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19:10<colemickens>that certainly seems on topic. /s
19:11<Sqrt{not}>colemickens, you're right, reading the docs couldn't possibly help anything
19:11<kaleb9_>I am reaching the conclusion that tor might be useful only to alcaeda hahhahahha
19:12<colemickens>Not sure if you're too ignorant to understand what I'm saying or if you're just enjoying being condescending. The issue is with debian's configuration of NTP, not NTP's configuration.
19:12<colemickens>But whatever, I'll wait for someone that can read/comprehend.
19:12<colemickens>And yes, I've read the upstream NTP docs (that again, has absolutely nothing to do with how DEBIAN is running it)
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19:16<twb>colemickens: which NTP? systemd-timesyncd, ntpsec, or legacy ntp?
19:17<another>colemickens: Why would PrivateTmp affect ntp in any way? Am I missing something?
19:18<twb>ntp-systemd-wrapper appears to be a hack due to ifupdown &c
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19:19<twb>If you just want an NTP *client*, and you don't care about sub-second accuracy (scientific equipment), and you don't care about NTS, IMO you should just run systemd-timesyncd
19:21<twb>another: I'm guessing they're also running legacy ISC dhcpd, and they want NTP option from DHCPv4 to propagate to the NTP client. This historically works by the DHCP client forcibly patching the NTP client config, then restarting the NTP client with "actually use this config file". This happens via /tmp, which is assumed to be shared.
19:22<twb>*legacy ISC dhclient
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19:22<another>oh. TIL
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19:26<Sqrt{not}>At first I thought they were running a new bullseye install, then later they talked about buster
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19:27<twb>You definitely shouldn't run plain "ntp" package in bullseye
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19:32<kaleb9_>tails definitely is not to have fun on web.
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19:37<kirikiri>is there any way to track my internet history and save it in a file? like all the websites or URLs i visit
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19:38<another>depends on your browser
19:38<twb>kirikiri: not really because of TLS.
19:38<twb>kirikiri: do you want ALL traffic, or only a single GUI web browser?
19:38<kirikiri>i was hoping for all traffic
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19:38<americaneagle>is there any way that i can use a different tipe of connection in hexchat in every server?
19:38<twb>kirikiri: HTTP/HTTPS, or all protocols?
19:39<kirikiri>all protocols
19:39<americaneagle>like in one use proxy1, in other tor and in other proxy2
19:39<twb>kirikiri: OK what you want is a "network tap", or if you can't get that, a switch that supports "port mirroring"
19:39<kaleb9_>in my opinion firefox if by far opyimum browser, who knows you find an addon to suit your neeeds
19:39<twb>kirikiri: then on that you run something like tcpdump which can log a packet capture (pcap) for later analysis
19:39<americaneagle>kirikiri: what you want is a type of keylogger
19:40<crawler>Everyone loves kirikiri :)
19:40<twb>kirikiri: if your router is OpenWRT, it can do this, although you will need some large storage area
19:40<kirikiri>thank you
19:40<another>not really. keyloggers capture keyboard inputs
19:40<kirikiri>large storage area is fine
19:40<americaneagle>just use google for history, if you want a little more, just script something that will screen record
19:40<twb>kirikiri: note that due to end-to-end encryption, you will only know IP addresses, not full URLs
19:40<americaneagle>is an example another
19:40<kirikiri>how do i get a network tap, is it a software or sth else?
19:40<another>a bad one
19:41<twb>kirikiri: there are hardware ones that cost a few hundred dollars
19:41<crawler>What exactly do you want to do with that "history"?
19:41-!-trekkie1701c [] has quit [Quit: :P]
19:41<twb>kirikiri: OR you can get a $50 openwrt router and turn it into oe
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19:41<americaneagle>just use several google drives, or find a paid account
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19:42<twb>kirikiri: for a single host you trust, you can try something like this: "sudo tcpdump -p"
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19:42<kirikiri>ok. i have never heard of openwrt before so im looking that up now
19:43<twb>kirikiri: if you have Cisco or HP networking, I think they have equivalent functionality
19:43<kirikiri>i do trust my network i'm on rn but i dont run it, can i still try tcpdump on it?
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19:43<americaneagle>another, depends of where you want that history to be compiled of
19:43<twb>kirikiri: you have root on your own laptop, and want to just look at the laptop?
19:44<americaneagle>if its from a friend laptop ;), or yours
19:44<twb>kirikiri: OK just try "sudo tcpdump -p" on your laptop for now
19:44<kirikiri>it is my laptop lol
19:44<twb>kirikiri: you should see one line per packet
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19:44<americaneagle>ok i dont have any advice then xd
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19:45<kirikiri>ah i havent added all users on this laptop to have root access, how do i do that?
19:45<mooff>twb, can tcpdump lift hostnames out of TLS SNI?
19:45<americaneagle>sudo adduser (user)
19:46<twb>mooff: yes
19:46<another>kirikiri: What is your goal here? Do you want to observe network traffic?
19:46<kaleb9_>sudo visudo
19:46<twb>Well, really that would be a job for tshark/wireshark because tcpdump only has limited analysers
19:46<kirikiri>i want to know all my own connections, in one central place ideally
19:46<kirikiri>like an enhanced browser history that gets all network connections
19:46<americaneagle>so, is there any handy way to connect with a different proxy to different servers?
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19:47<americaneagle>like different proxys to different irc servers
19:47<kirikiri>i will brb i am gonna log into root rq
19:47<another>kirikiri: Since a lot of web traffic is encrypted you won't see full URLs
19:47<twb>mooff: for example tshark -NdmnNtv -i sshdump -o extcap.sshdump.remoteusername:root -o,tvserver-1 -o extcap.sshdump.remotenoprom:true -o extcap.sshdump.remoteinterface:enp5s0 -Y tls -T fields -e tls.handshake.extensions_alpn_str -f 'host'
19:47<twb>mooff: that's printing the ALPN part of TLS, but SNI should be in there nearby
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19:49<twb>americaneagle: re proxies, I don't understand the question. You want your IRC client to use for OFTC, and for Libera?
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19:51<americaneagle> with westVPN, with tor, with moanvpn
19:51<kirikiri>ok im back i ran tcpdump on root, it works but im not sure how to read the results
19:51<americaneagle>that in hexchat and in the same machine
19:52<kirikiri>even though web traffic is encrypted, if its my computer making the requests cant i see what i send out? to at least know outgoing requests
19:52<twb>americaneagle: OK that sounds like a question specific to hexchat; I can't advise on that
19:52<americaneagle>twb: each irc server with each vpn
19:52<americaneagle>ok wich client can you advice?
19:53<americaneagle>or moethod of connection
19:53<kaleb9_>soon I will sleep. I just wamt yo enjoy a little rock more.
19:53<twb>americaneagle: I don't know any way to do it without running separate processes for each server
19:54<americaneagle>in different machines no?
19:54<americaneagle>or in the same twb
19:54<twb>kirikiri: you don't have "sudo" installed?
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19:55<americaneagle>do you know any other support servers?
19:56<twb>kirikiri: if you prefer GUIs, you will probably find "wireshark" easier to understand
19:57<twb>kirikiri: it shows the same one-lin-per-packet, but you can click on the line to see more detail
19:57<mooff>twb, re the tshark command - cool!
19:57<mooff>"it was on the tip of my tongue" 😁
19:58<mooff>an intuitive and obvious command if i ever saw one...
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19:58<kaleb9_>as far as I know wireshark is an instrusion tool
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19:59<kaleb9_>leads me to think you are shotting hacking adventures
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20:01<twb>kaleb9_: wireshark is a network analysis tool. You can use it for good or evil.
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20:01<kaleb9_>in these fields there is a thiny line that divides good and evil
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20:03<mooff>wireshark is as much of an intrusion tool as a pair of binoculars is
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20:03<mooff>some people just use it to watch birds
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20:04<twb>mooff: I was actually thinking "a screwdriver"
20:04<kirikiri>ok i used tshark and it works and i can see IPs and i tested and recognize some of them so it works
20:04<mooff>my first thought was "microphone"
20:04<kirikiri>but i cant see URLs. though this does still help
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20:05<twb>kirikiri: as I said, due to TLS, you can't see URLs only IPs (and often, hostnames)
20:05<kirikiri>is there a way to intercept applications before they send a DNS request or something? for example like make my browsers all tell me what URL they try to connect to?
20:05<another>unless you want to MITM yourself
20:05<kirikiri>kinda yeah
20:05<twb>kirikiri: yes, that command will also show the DNS queries
20:05<twb>kirikiri: you can test this yourself, e.g.
20:06<another>DNS won't give you full URLs either
20:06<twb>"resolvectl query -t aaaa"
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20:07<twb>But the only way to see the full URLs, when TLS is involved, is to perform "SSL inspection", a.k.a. "MITM" on yourself
20:07<another>though that won't work on everything
20:08<another>TLS1.3 should fail. google domains in chrome, too
20:08<twb>another: chrome allows SSL inspection of google domains if done correctly.
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20:08<twb>another: "correctly" essentially means an appropriately structured CA, and supporting rules in the group policy object
20:09<twb>It won't work if it's transparent, because that looks like an attack
20:09<another>so, basically if you explicitly allow it?
20:09<twb>Of course now I say that, I confess I haven't actually tested this with TLS1.3 or a first-party google domain.
20:09<twb>another: right
20:10<another>fair enough
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20:10<twb>another: you basically just convince chrome that you, the site admin, have chosen to SSL inspect your site
20:10<kirikiri>ok imtrying out the things suggested, though reading results i cant exactly keep up with the conversation
20:10<twb>If you do this on Android there's an unremovable warning that "your asshole boss may be watching you" or similar
20:10<twb>Not on Debian though
20:10<kirikiri>what does SSL inspection entail, how do i set it up
20:11<twb>kirikiri: either you pay someone $50,000
20:11<twb>kirikiri: or you need to learn how to use certtool and squid
20:11<another>I think there are tools for that. though I never used them
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20:12<twb>kirikiri: which clients do you need to SSL inspect?
20:12<kirikiri>one sec
20:12<another>basically you set up a fake CA to issue fake certs for all domains and tell your computer to trust it
20:12<kirikiri>what does client refer to in this context
20:12<LeeSin>hi do you hear me?
20:13<another>LeeSin: no
20:13<mooff>i find SSL inspection pretty offensive in the workplace
20:13<twb>kirikiri: like, curl, wget, chromium, firefox
20:14<LeeSin>anyone know why my internet crash? :3
20:14<twb>mooff: >shrug< it depends if you're working in a 7/11 or a signals directorate
20:14<twb>LeeSin: what have you already done to isolate the fault?
20:14<kirikiri>curl and a few browsers primarily
20:14<twb>kirikiri: OK for simplicity let's consider just curl
20:15<twb>kirikiri: first you need to generate a CA keypair and CA certificate. Then tell curl "trust this CA", e.g. via putting it in /usr/local/share/ca-certificates/my-cool-ca.crt and running "sudo update-ca-certificates".
20:16<twb>kirikiri: then you need to install and configure squid 4+ to use ssl-bump in "peek" mode
20:16<twb>kirikiri: squid will then pretend to be the website, generate a fake certificate, give it to the client, and then separately make its own TLS connection to the real website
20:17<kirikiri>ah ok
20:17<twb>kirikiri: finally, you need to tell curl to use squid as the proxy, e.g. https_proxy=http://localhost:3128/
20:17<kirikiri>ok that plan does make sense
20:17<kirikiri>i will have to figure out how to use squid
20:18<kirikiri>but i can probably do that
20:18<twb>For a GUI browser the process is broadly the same, but the CA certificate goes into e.g. ~/.pki/awful.db for each separate user
20:18<twb>Oops wrong uRL
20:18<kirikiri>ok thank you
20:19<Sqrt{not}>LeeSin, what happened exactly when it crashed? what version of debian are you running there?
20:19<twb>kirikiri: this is my day job, so you can hire me to do this for you ( but if this is for personal use the rate is probably outside your budget
20:19<twb>kirikiri: oh PS: in some jurisdictions this is illegal.
20:20<twb>kirikiri: it's USUALLY legal as long as affected users are warned that you're doing it
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20:21<kirikiri>ok. it is just me im trying to record lol
20:21<kaleb9_>I start to not like where this conversation goes...illegal stuff
20:22<kaleb9_>have a nice day all
20:22<kirikiri>intuitively i feel like there must be an easier way to 'spy' on myself
20:22<Sqrt{not}>kirikiri, there is: just make handwritten notes
20:22<twb>kaleb9_: eh, it's in countries like Iran where "being gay" or "disliking god" is also illegal
20:22<kirikiri>that is a fair proposition theoretically
20:23<LeeSin>Sqrt, look I use AV-MXE, a respin of MX
20:23<twb>kirikiri: if it's *just* for a GUI browser, for a single page, you can open the inspector (Ctrl+Shift+i), click "Network", then refresh the page
20:23-!-semeion [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:23<kirikiri>how do i respond to a user like when you have my name in your message
20:23<twb>kirikiri: but you asked for comprehensive --- this is how you do comprehensive
20:23<twb>kirikiri: in my case, I just hit "ki <TAB TAB TAB>"
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20:23<mooff>kirikiri: type the first few letters of their nickname then press tab
20:24<mooff>or type eg "twb: " manually
20:24<LeeSin>sqrt: and it happens everytime i enter to literally everything: chrome, firefox, chromium, I have screenshots but don't know how to send it to you
20:24<kirikiri>twb: oo
20:24<kirikiri>mooff: ty
20:25<Sqrt{not}>LeeSin, this is debian linux support. even regular MX is different enough that we can't support it here. I don't know about AV=MXE, but the robot can tell you same places for MX support:
20:25<kirikiri>Sqrt{not}: i might try for an electronic version of 'handwritten notes' ultimately it might be easier
20:26<dselect>MX Linux is a popular distribution <based on debian>. It is not supported in #debian. Support is available on their forum: It is related to <antix>. If you are new to linux, or want a distro with IRC support, try Debian instead:
20:27<another>kirikiri: IIRC there are tools to automatically setup squid and CA. On the other hand: Do you really want spying to be easier?
20:27<LeeSin>i got it, thaks anyways sqrt.
20:28<kirikiri>thats what i was thinking...i feel like if i make a mistake i might compromise my security...since im new to this
20:28<kirikiri>naively i could always just copy and paste every url i visit in a browser and every curl request i make and that would net the bulk of the traffic
20:29<kirikiri>though not packet by packet
20:29<kirikiri>but that is fine
20:29<americaneagle>kirikiri: what do you want to do with that thing
20:29<americaneagle>i can help you with the true intents
20:29<kirikiri>run stats and other analysis on my own internet use, mostly
20:30<kirikiri>it is a sort of recordkeeping purpose. so CA and proxy does sound a little much for me
20:31<kirikiri>are there better approaches for this intent?
20:31<americaneagle>use google
20:31<twb>kirikiri: you will probably have to make some compromise then
20:31<twb>between "log everything" vs. "without too much fiddle-farting around"
20:32<americaneagle>those glowies will keep a close record of you even if you are sleeping literaly
20:32<mooff>americaneagle, but this channel is for getting other people to use Google for you :)
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20:32<mooff>kirikiri: you could always just copy and use your browser's history database
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20:33<kirikiri>is there also a way to send command line commands into a file conditional on if they involve an internet connection? or have certain keywords
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20:34<twb>kirikiri: not easily
20:35<twb>kirikiri: I would just log every command, e.g. .bash_history
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20:36<kirikiri>i could search in bash history for all curl commands for example, that would be fair for my purposes
20:37<kirikiri>does bash history come with timestamps? it doesnt look like it
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20:39<kidx>anyone know why I hear a click sound when no audio is playing
20:39<kidx>but when i watch a video it stops
20:39<mooff>just one, or repeatedly?
20:39<kidx>or even play music
20:39<americaneagle>i think you should use windows kirikiri
20:39<kidx>click clcik clcik
20:39<americaneagle>or just a chromebook
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20:40<kidx>whats windows kirikiri
20:40<another>americaneagle: you're not beeing very helpful
20:40<kirikiri>what would i do on windows to solve this problem
20:40<kirikiri>like what program or other thing would i run
20:40<americaneagle>windows logs everithing
20:41<kidx>oh your talking to some one elsemy bad
20:41<americaneagle>with timestamp, gps location, a pretty neat image of your face, including your real name andd ip where you did the acction
20:41<americaneagle>pretty neat linux distro
20:42<mooff>kidx: you've tried turning it off and on again? has it always clicked?
20:42<kidx>rebooting the machine?
20:42<kidx>still does
20:42<mooff>is it a new problem?
20:42<kidx>i can see the sound clicking on my mixer
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20:42<mooff>software mixer on the machine or external?
20:43<kidx>analog hardware
20:43<kirikiri>how do you access that info on the machine
20:43<kidx>I dont do software mixer
20:43<kirikiri>i do have a windows computer that i can get and try your suggestion
20:43<somiaj>kirikiri: you can configure the history file a bit more if you like, by default it doesn't have time stamps.
20:43<kirikiri>i have never done this before though
20:43<kidx>though the click is anoying
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20:43<mooff>kirikiri: i think they are being flippant about "MS and Google will track you anyway!"
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20:44<somiaj>kidx: that is strange, could it maybe be some hardware issue where you are hearing a short or feedback in your speakers that once you start using your audio card is no longer present?
20:44<kirikiri>mooff: ty
20:44<somiaj>kidx: I can't think of anything in linux that would be doing that, to me that sounds more like a hardware issue.
20:44<kidx>its a driver issue
20:45<kidx>i am running Asrock Ab350 pro 4
20:45<somiaj>Try other kernels?
20:45<kirikiri>i will learn to configure the bash history to put timestamps in and i will also check out squid and CA stuff and see if that suits my needs
20:45<kirikiri>thank you for the help everyone
20:45<mooff>gl kirikiri
20:45<kidx>I tried Xanmod kernel same
20:45<kirikiri>mooff: thank you
20:46<kidx>its like a clocks ticking
20:46<somiaj>kidx: what module is the sound card using? Is it snd_intel_hda?
20:46<kidx>tick tick tick
20:46<mooff>fwiw i think squid + CA would be overkill, you probably want to read your browser's database, or figure out something with tcpdump, wireshark or tshark
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20:47<mooff>i could imagine there being some sort of GUI firewall program that does it too, something like Little Snitch
20:47<kidx>its uing Family 17h models
20:49<another>kidx: maybe some interference from a different device?
20:49<somiaj>what module in the kernel is it using? Well you can configure the snd_hda_intel module to use different 'models' which can sometimes help with things where the kernel detects the wrong defaults
20:50<mooff>another fix might be to play white noise at e.g. -90dB on a loop as a systemd service 🤓
20:51<kidx>i am using just regualr Debian 11
20:51<kidx>default outta the box
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20:52<dpkg>AV Linux MX Edition is a custom linux distro for an Audio/Visual workstation, based on MX linux. It is not debian, and is not supported in debian IRC channels. See Post support issues in the MX Respins forum at See also <avlinux>
20:52<twb>kidx: if you set the volume to mute 0%, does the clicking stop?
20:53<twb>kidx: "when no audio is playing" sounds like the click you hear when the chip powers down. In powertop or /sys/, make sure snd_hda_intel (or whatever /proc/asound/cards reports) is set to "on" not "auto"
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20:54<kidx>how do i set that
20:54<twb>It might be periodic because some GUI component is waking it up periodically
20:54<kidx>i switched mics and now its gona weird
20:54<kidx>but how do i set that to make sure its set right?
20:54<twb>kidx: if the behaviour changes when you move cables around, it might be crosstalk/interference at the EMC level
20:55<twb>kidx: "sudo powertop", click TAB untli you reach "Tunables". arrows to find the sound card. Make sure it's set to "Bad"
20:55<twb>">> Good Enable Audio codec power management"
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20:55<mooff>that's probably your fix
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20:55<twb>">> Good Runtime PM for PCI Device Intel Corporation Cannon Point-LP High Definition Audio Controller"
20:56<twb>kidx: ^ those are what I see that are probably the relevant devices
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21:01<kidx>make it bad?
21:01<kidx>its bad now
21:01<twb>kidx: yes
21:01<twb>kidx: "bad" for saving power, because it stays powered up
21:01<twb>But good for not clicking every time it auto-powers-down
21:01<kidx>its bad
21:02<twb>kidx: did you do both the "HDA" and "codec" lines?
21:03<kidx>whats the HDA one again i am running ryzen
21:03<twb>"High Definition Audio"
21:03<another>HDA is a standard for audio devices
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21:03<twb>kidx: I don't know exactly what it will say
21:04<twb>Try "sudo powertop --html powertop.html" and then upload powertop.html somewhere
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21:07<kidx>thin the audio is normal now
21:07<kidx>no click
21:08<twb>kidx: OK so this will undo itself on reboot
21:08<twb>kidx: you need to work out what set that to "auto" and fix it
21:09<twb>This is likely to be either in /*/udev/rules.d/ or in upowerd, but that's just a wild guess
21:09<mooff>sometimes bad is good 🤓
21:10<twb>normally it doesn't default to auto, so I've only seen this for HDA with "sudo powertop --auto-tune", in which case "don't do that"
21:10<twb>You might find a howto if you look for "don't auto-power-off USB on linux" or something
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21:20*twb grumbles at 4W for iwlwifi and 128mW per wg, when the backlight is down to 15mW
21:21<twb>It's dumb that my battery life is 20h instead of 60h only because the wifi chip can't idle itself properly
21:24<bremner>hint, not amd64
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21:28<twb>bremner: yes, it is
21:29<mooff>does anyone know of a program that can project one X screen into a window, or onto another?
21:29<twb>mooff: not exactly what you asked for, but I like broadwayd
21:29<mooff>e.g. OBS can open windowed or fullscreen "projectors", from an X screen source
21:30-!-hays [] has quit [Quit: hays]
21:30<mooff>but i'm looking for something i can start with a hotkey, OBS is a little too involved
21:30<somiaj>mooff: does it have to be an x-screen, what about a nested xserver like xephyr?
21:31<somiaj>xrandr can also make virtual screens
21:31<mooff>somiaj: i'm hoping to be able to mirror screen A onto screen B with a hotkey, or screen B onto screen A with another
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21:31<twb>mooff: in gnome, penguin+P
21:31<mooff>if it worked like OBS's projector windows, that would be ideal
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21:31<somiaj>mooff: I think RandR can do this, though I guess you want it in a window so it doesn't change screen A/B in that case
21:31<mooff>Super+p was broken for me on Gnome / nvidia / bullseye :/
21:32<twb>for me, I see the same behaviour as on Windows
21:32<mooff>but i'm using i3 now - hence why a window projector would be ideal
21:32<twb>I haven't dug into exactly what it's doing because now it's wayland, I can't
21:32<mooff>twb: i see / saw the same dialog, but all of the selections did the wrong thing, lol
21:33<twb>xrandr is a sensible place to start
21:34<mooff>OBS calls its X screen source "X SHM", or similar
21:36<twb>That still exists?
21:36<twb>I thought it was off by default in current X configs
21:36<twb>Maybe since you're using nvidia, it re-enables legacy backdoors
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21:39<lucas_>boa noite
21:39<dpkg>bremner: Debian è un sistema operativo composto da software libero (un concetto distinto da quello di gratis): vedi per saperne di più.
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21:40<twb>bremner: why is that "!list" and not "!pt" ?
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21:41<dpkg>Este canal é apenas em inglês. Por favor, use #debian-br on (/j #debian-br) para ajuda em portugues. -
21:42<twb>mooff: yeah but lucas_ was speaking brasilero
21:42<bremner>oh, my bad
21:42<mooff>ah, yeah
21:43<mooff>explains why "!pt" did feel right
21:43<twb>(Apart from anything else, it's not night time anywhere with a substantial Italian-speaking community)
21:43<bremner>cynically, it worked :P
21:43<twb>bremner: they left and didn't find #debian-br, so... no?
21:44<bremner>ok, mr serious pants
21:46<mooff>vlc(1) is probably my solution
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22:11<Dami>tws: Hello, I would like to ask you about the license compatibility between dependent libraries yesterday. You mentioned that there was an icon, but I could not find it for a long time,Could you please help to provide it,thank you
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22:13<Dami>sorry is graph,not icon
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22:20<enyc>Bitxy: this is oftc #debian general channel, there are lots of #debian-* specific channels ...
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22:35<kirikiri>is there a way to save everyting output by a shell/terminal? like for example if i run apt and want to save all those messages it shows me when i download a package
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22:35<sussudio>kirikiri: dpkg keeps a log.
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22:39<kirikiri>sussudio: found it, thank you!
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22:39<kirikiri>what do i do for other terminal outputs? other than apt/dpkg
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22:40<raven523>as in the program named "script"
22:41<kirikiri>raven523: oh found it, thank you! this looks perfect
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22:42<raven523>it looks like it's in bsdutils
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22:42<kirikiri>ok i found it im gonna figure out how to get it to work. thank you
22:43<urk>ARe there any other window managers that work with LXDE beside sddm? I find the print very small in the screens, and would like to use something else if at all possible. No one is responding in #lxde. Channel has been completely quiet for more than a week even though a lot of people are supposedly in there.
22:44<raven523>sddk is a display manager, not a window manager, but any recent display manager such as lightdm or gdm should also work with lxde
22:44<themill>sddm is a display manager (deals with login) nothing else.
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23:10<moh>hello !
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23:14<kidx>how can i fix this Dependency is not satisfiable: libappindicator1
23:14<kidx>I wanna install discord i had it installed once
23:15<gateway2000>kidx You could potentially backport it from sid
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23:16<kidx>how would I do that i am failry new to this
23:16<kidx>well debian i am coming from ubuntu i just want the real deal
23:17<gateway2000>kidx this is the guide that I use:
23:17<alex11>wow! *the* debian? can i have your autograph?
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23:22<somiaj>kidx: I have installed the libary from buster
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23:23<somiaj>I have libappindicator and libindicator7 installed from buster in bullseye.
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23:30<kidx>how you install them i added the repo and i cannot install them
23:34<somiaj>if you added the repo you can just apt update, and apt install them, you can also just manually download the two .debs from and dpkg -i them
23:35<kidx>i added testing main
23:38<somiaj>don't add testing to stable
23:39<kirikiri>im not sure if its applicable in ur system but you may want to read the debian wiki 'frankendebian' article
23:39<somiaj>buster is oldstable
23:39<somiaj>My suggestion was to install two old libs from buster, which is fine since it is just two libs nothing else depends on
23:40<kidx>i am trying to find the libappindicator1 deb file
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23:42<kidx>got it
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23:42<kidx>all i do is search for the deb file ion the site and download it install it and install discord
23:42<kidx>thank you guys
23:43<somiaj>remove testing from your soruces.list if you added it, that is only asking for a world of pain
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---Logclosed Tue Sep 07 00:00:27 2021