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#debian IRC Logs for 2021-09-08

---Logopened Wed Sep 08 00:00:28 2021
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00:46<troethe>Hey, for some reason, when I start my wm with gdm3, my .profile isn't being sourced. Anything I am doing wrong? There is no .bash_profile in my home directory, btw.
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00:58<somiaj>no that is to be expected
00:59<somiaj>the shells you open in your wm are interactive (not login) so they read .bashrc not .profile
00:59<somiaj>man bash and read about interactive vs login shells, or if you don't want to have a distinction
00:59<somiaj>you can have one of the files source the other, here is my .prfile
01:00<somiaj>troethe: -- I then do all my configuration in .bashrc
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01:06<somiaj>troethe: -- might also be useful, .profile is sourced when loading a xsession from gdm3, if you need to add stuff to your xsession that can be useful
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01:08<troethe>somiaj: I know, but shouldn't gdm3 source .profile in some way or the other, since it basically *IS* my login shell?
01:09<somiaj>nope, instead the Xsession is sourced, and that wiki describes that basic stuff that is read
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01:11<troethe>aaah I see, thank you. I was used to this happening, when I was using i3 with gdm3, but maybe because sway is wayland, all the Xsession stuff doesn't happen. Thanks!
01:12<somiaj>yea, I'm unsure about waylend in this regard
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01:38<khaos__>Does someone knows why my nick has doble underline before it?
01:39<somiaj>khaos__: it does't, maybe it is something wiht your client, but #oftc for questions about this network
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01:58<grawity>it does though
01:58<grawity>oh wait, after
01:58<somiaj>grawity: yea, maybe they were dislexic
01:58<somiaj>but I assumed they did mean 'before'
01:58<somiaj>though you are probably correct, they confused before and after
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02:53<Guest6660>wow LXQT is fast
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02:58<tjcarter>When I installed it to give it a shot, I got a DM that wouldn't let me change VTs, a flat light-gray background, no desktop icons, etc. It felt very unfinished and the DM was a dealbreaker.
02:58<tjcarter>seemed like something was missing (glad it works well for you though!)
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04:57<nadab>Hello. In my OpenVPN client config file I use a down script ("down"). This script ends with "sleep 5s, sudo /rw/config/rc.local" to restart the OpenVPN client
04:57<nadab>The only issue is when I restart Debian. The computer stops responding, I think because it's stuck in infinite loop restarting/shutting down openvpn
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04:58<nadab>How can I avoid this?
05:01<jm_>why would a down script for openvpn restart itself?
05:03<mooff>perhaps you could check the runlevel, and avoid the hack if it is 6 [restart]
05:04<mooff>systemd would give a cleaner declarative way to make the service auto-restart
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05:05<jm_>ahh down is run when connection goes down, not when openvpn process goes down, yeah then it makes sense
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05:09<Urk>I just copied the Thunderbird profile from one user to another, and now receive an error message that I just close Thunderbird before starting another session. I did a ps aux | grep thunderbird and it came back with pd 6092 0.0 0.0 6076 884 pts/1, etc I did kill 6092, and it came back with an error that said No such process.
05:10<Urk>ran "ps -ef | grep thunderbird | grep -v grep" and nothing came back. However, running "ps -ef | grep firefox | grep -v grep" returned the expected results. Looks like this command won't work for me.
05:10<nadab>mooff: i dont think i can use systemd, i kinda need to start it with my rc.local script
05:10<Urk>Anyone know how to use xkill?
05:10<nadab>jm_ yes. i wish only wish it didnt run on reboot
05:10<jm_>Urk: there's pgrep command, or pidof
05:11<jm_>many people know how to use xkill, yes
05:11<grove>noarb: You can makea systemd unit that invokes your script
05:11<jm_>nadab: why are you starting it via rc.local?
05:11<Tj>Urk: if you've copied the profile in the file-system it may include absolute paths so you'll now have 2 users trying to access the same profile
05:11<jm_>I used systemd to start openvpn client with custom config
05:11<grawity>Urk: remove the 'lock' symlink inside the profile directory
05:12<grawity>(the command did work – it just returned the `grep` process)
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05:12<Urk>grawity: How do I look this up?
05:13<grawity>ls -l ~/.thunderbird/whatever.whatever/lock
05:13<Urk>that is the "lock" symlink
05:13<grawity>it's literally a file named 'lock' in the directory
05:14<nadab>jm_: i run another command as well as restarting openvpn. but i guess maybe i can do without
05:14<nadab>or add that command in the down script
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05:16<jm_>look in those *.default dirs
05:16<Urk>grawity: Don't think I understand your syntax for finding the lock file.
05:19<Urk>jm_: Can't pull them up with cat or cd
05:20<Urk>I get an error indicating No such file or directory
05:21<jm_>Urk: as in «ls -l ~/.thunderbird/*/*lock» shows that error?
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05:22<Urk>jm_: I get ls: cannot access '/home/pd/.thunderbird/*/*lock': No such file or directory
05:23<Urk>What about the deleting the profile, and trying to cp the profile again?
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05:24<Urk>Incidentally the profiles.ini is blank when pulling it up with vim.
05:25<Urk>xkill didn't kill it.
05:27<Urk>I am leaning on purging Thunderbird, and then checking with you on the best command for copying the profile. I think I just used cp -r /home/pdq/.thunderbird /home/pd/.thunderbird or something ike that
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05:30<Urk>well, its getting late. I am going to take this up in the morning. Couldn't sleep, and thought I would get up and do a bit of work. Is there anything else I can do beside just purging from my current user, and trying the cp command again? Is cp -r /home/pdq/.thunderbird /home/pd/.thunderbird the best way to copy the profile?
05:30<Tj>Urk: you could grep the profile for hard-coded paths, as in "grep -arn '/home/pdq' $HOME/.thunderbird "
05:32<Urk>Tj: Are there quotes around this command? Or are you just inserting quotes for emphasis?
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05:33<Urk>Tj: Not sure I understand the syntax of your command. Could you stick that in
05:34<mooff>nadab: try something like this:
05:34<Urk> Tj: I get no such file or directory, but not sure I am doing this right.
05:35<nadab>mooff: thank you very much I will try
05:35<Tj>Urk: I surround the commands to run with " ... " to make it clear what is command and what is commentary
05:36<nadab>mooff: uh what exactly does this script do?
05:36<Tj>Urk: the command tells grep to search for the text "/home/pdq" in all files (binary or text) under $HOME/.thunderbird
05:36<Urk>Tj: It returned nothing
05:36<Tj>Urk: I assume from your comments that /home/pdq is where the profile was copied /from/ and is therefore the original
05:37<Tj>Urk: OK, that's a good sign - suggests the issues isn't hard-coded paths
05:37<Urk>Tj: yes
05:37<mooff>nadab: when the system is shutting down, the runlevel should be 0. when it's restarting, it should be 6
05:37<Urk>Tj: So how do I fix this problem?
05:37<mooff>nadab: the script shows how to check for them
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05:37<Tj>Urk: not sure - very long time since I did that (over 10 years)
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05:38<mooff>Urk: are you sure the files are owned by the right user?
05:38<nadab>mooff: i see. very good, this is probably what i need
05:38<Urk>Tj: I am leaning on just purging everything Thunderbird from pd, and run the copy command again.
05:38<Tj>Urk: oh hang-on!!! did you ensure the owner was changed to be the new user, not the old? e.g. does "ls -latr /home/pd/.thunderbird" show the owner as pd or pdq ?
05:39<Tj>Urk: if it shows as the orginal owner then that'll most likely be the issue
05:39<mooff>chown -R pd:pd ~pd
05:40<Urk>mooff: I don't know.
05:40<Tj>mooff: that'd require sudo if there are files owned by others :)
05:40<Tj>Urk: there's your problem; some files/dirs owned by root
05:41<Urk>Tj: profiles.ini is completely blank
05:41<Urk>So I need to change the ownership?
05:41<Tj>Urk: "sudo chown -R pd:pd /home/pd/.thunderbird"
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05:42<Tj>Urk: the profiles.ini is shown as being 259 bytes in size, so are you saying it is all spaces or tabs or linefeeds?
05:42<Urk>Tj: That fixed the problem. Looks like I learn something new every day.
05:42<Tj>Urk: yay!
05:43<Urk>Everything works, and the original profile was copied correctly with all mail and folders
05:44<Urk>Its too late now, but after I wake up I need to change permissions on my KDBX folder, and then copy profiles for Firefox, and Chrome.
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05:44<jm_>nice, we all overlooked root as owner of the dirs in original paste :P
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05:46<Etua>Hello, I created backup of my whole / using Borg before upgrading to Bullseye. Now after a few tries I am unable to create post-upgrade backup as the process is suspended by stat errors. Do you know about any errors introduced in Bullseye that could cause that? Should I check the file integrity of my partition?
05:47<grawity>what kind of stat errors, specifically?
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05:49<mooff>Urk: i would personally do `sudo chown -R pd:pd /home/pd` to change everything :)
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05:51<Tj>I generally check first to know the extent of the problem with "sudo find $HOME -not -user $USER -ls"
05:51<Etua>grawity: /var/lib/lxcfs/cgroup: stat: [Errno 5] Input/output error: '/var/lib/lxcfs/cgroup'tcloud/data/kaczel/files/Documents/Welcome to Nextcloud Hub.docx is an example. The only variable is the filename.
05:52<Tj>Then I follow up with "sudo find $HOME -not -user $USER -execdir chown $USER:$USER {} \+ "
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05:52<mr_claus>I need to install Debian11 on an APU board. There is only a serial console available. How i have to modify the installer image to enable serial support during the installation?
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05:53<grawity>Etua: sounds like you should be telling it to not go into lxcfs
05:53<grawity>Etua: or any sort of virtual filesystem in general
05:53<Urk>I would like to change my login screen. Somehow I neded up with a funky login screen that doesn't look good. Don't know where it came from, but changing window managers hasn't changed this screen. Any thoughts?
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05:53<grawity>I think debian's default login screen is LightDM with the default gtk greeter
05:53<Urk>Awhile back I had a login screen that had a restart button in the upper right hand corner which is a nice tool. I don't have that now.
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05:54<Tj>mr_claus: APU2/APU4 ?
05:54<grawity>that one sounds like GNOME's gdm.. but no, lightdm also has restart button somewhere as well
05:54<jm_>Urk: if you're using X11 then cat /etc/X11/default-display-manager will show current DM
05:54<Urk>grawity: I went back to LightDM and everything is working, but I didn't get the default screen.
05:54<Etua>grawity: The thing is that all my services reside in LXC containers. Backup of host OS without them is close to being useless.
05:54<Urk>jm_: I know, and it shows LightDM
05:54<grawity>Etua: but the cotnainers themselves don't reside in lxcfs
05:54<Urk>Shouldn't changing the display manager also change the login screen?
05:55<grawity>Urk: yes
05:55<jm_>how do you change it?
05:55<grawity>Etua: only the virtual "emulated sysfs" things do, which you don't need to back up anyway
05:55<grawity>Urk: lightdm itself also has swappable login screens ("greeters"), and *they* might have swappable themes
05:55<grawity>tbh I want to try out
05:56<Urk>grawity: I am going to reboot, and see if something different happens. I recall the login screen in LightDM, and its a good one.
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05:56<Etua>grawity: OK, then after I exclude /var/lib/lxcfs from Borg the data of the containers would still be preserved?
05:56<Tj>mr_claus: see
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05:57<grawity>Etua: yes
05:57<Urk>grawity: When I shut down it doesn't shut down, and just takes me to the login screen, and not the one for LightDM even though LightDM is my current display manager. I think the login screen is for slim
05:58<Urk>I am going to uninstall slim and see if this helps.
05:58<Urk>I am going to reboot again.
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05:58<Etua>grawity: Thank you. I will adjust my backup command.
05:59<mr_claus>Tj: APU2
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06:01<Urk>ok, the LightDM login screen is showing up again, but I had to uninstall slim to make it happen. Its weird. I would think if LightDM was the display manager it wouldn't make any difference if other display managers were installed.
06:01<Urk>LightDM has a nice login screen.
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06:03<Tj>mr_claus: I think the Debian installer boots using syslinux not GRUB on BIOS, in which case you'd have to edit the syslinux config, which is difficult since it is inside the ISO9660 image
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06:05<Tj>mr_claus: I did it differently; I have non-installer bootable USBs so I edited the GRUB config to do serial on that first, then I booted the APU2 from the USB, then used debootstrap to install to the APU2, rather than using an installer image
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06:06<Tj>mr_claus: the other way to do it is not install it directly on the APU initially, but in a virtual machine. Attach the APUs storage device to a guest virtual machine with the installer ISO, install to it, configure the serial console settings for both GRUB and kernel, test, then move storage device to the APU
06:07<Tj>mr_claus: what storage device are you installing to on the APU?
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06:39<nadab>mooff: how do i run the runlevel command as sudo in this context? RUNLEVEL=${RUNLEVEL:-$(runlevel | cut -d ' ' -f2)}
06:40<nadab>mooff: i usually run su -c "command" in my script
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06:43<jm_>$(sudo runlevel) -- $() is like ``, i.e. read output of the command - if your issue is it can't find runlevel command, then simply run /sbin/runlevel as it should work as user
06:43<jm_>so probably no need for sudo/su
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06:44<mooff>yeah nadab, the issue is just that /sbin is only in the PATH for root by default
06:44<nadab>a. you are right. thank you
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07:01<user1894>Hi. How i can restore grub from windows 10?
07:02<jm_>why would you do that? simply boot d-i in rescue mode or some other live system
07:03<user1894>sry but i dont have usb stick
07:03<mr_claus>Tj: i'm using a MSATA SSD storage, which makes it difficult to install it in a virtual machine
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07:07<nadab>mooff: ${RUNLEVEL:-$(/sbin/runlevel | cut -d ' ' -f2)} returns 3 when the system is running, unfortunately it also returns 3 when my script runs during shutdown or reboot
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07:10<nadab>i tried adding a delay before in case its some sort of timing issue but didn't help, still 3
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07:12<nadab>is there another way to detect shutdown? or to distinguish between shutdown and the openvpn link going down
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07:13<tarzeau>nadab: the output of `last`?
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07:21<nadab>tarzeau: good suggestion but the output of last -F hasn't changed when the OpenVPN link down script is running. the latest entry is still "still running"
07:26<nadab>think i have to try jm_'s suggestion of using systemd to restart openvpn instead of my launch script. hopefully systemd doesnt actually try to start it during shutdown?
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07:41<grove>mr_claus: Why would your storage affect running virtual machines, those mostly use files in your fs for storage
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07:47<Tj>mr_claus: I use the mSATA too
07:47<Tj>grove: because the storage is in another system, not the one with the VM!
07:50<Tj>mr_claus: in which case I'd do what I said earlier with a slight modification; install to a USB device via VM, configure it for serial console as I showed, make sure the APU2 will boot correctly using that USB and have serial console for both GRUB and Linux, then either copy that image directly to the mSATA, or do a debootstrap install to the mSATA from the USB.
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08:59<mr_claus>Tj: ok, i will try this option, thanks
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09:32<zathras>is there a way to get notified once a package is released (in backports) ?
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09:34<grawity>not sure, but I kinda remember having email subscriptions on any change
09:34<zathras>that would be quite nice. ty
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10:00<zathras>yep. that kind of works
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10:15<Sqrt{not}>zathras, there is also the mailing list, if you want to know about every backport when it is released.
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10:21<zathras>thanks. My main interest is currently Redmine as that prevents me from upgrading a server. And therefor RubyOnRails 6 as its main dependency.
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10:21<zathras>I fear a release is not around the corner
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10:25<zathras>Yesterday I noticed something weird: on terminal 1 you are in a subdir. In term2 you rename that directory and create one with the same name and add some subdirs. In term 1 you expect 'ls' to give an overview of the newly created directory(structure), but instead are presented with the old view which seems to be cached. Say that dir is called 'a'. Then 'l' gives the wronf view but 'ls ../a' gives the actual view. Strange...
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10:26<jkc>zathras: You're reading the contents of the old inode.
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10:27<jkc>Even though you removed the directory, the contents of the inode aren't purged, they're just unlinked.
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10:27<jkc>It's not until you actually change your working directory to the new version that you're looking at the correct structure on disk.
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10:29<jkc>More specifically, the directory you're in is removed from the contents of its parent. The directory you're in can't be fully deleted while you're in it because you're in it. It's in use.
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10:30<zathras>ah. Makes sense
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10:31<zathras>that is. It does from an engineering point of view. But a user might think differently
10:32<jkc>Well... Bluntly, that sucks for the user, but the system works the way it works.
10:32<jkc>Try to delete a file that's open, what happens? Directories, same concept.
10:33<jkc>Sorry, re-reading that, that was more testy than I intended.
10:33<zathras>You get a warning by doing so. Not in this case. So not the perfect comparison, but I get it.
10:34<jkc>To be fair, the only reason I know this is because I did that exact same thing and went "wtf?"
10:34<jkc>And went digging into the why.
10:34<zathras>glad I wasn't the only one ;-)
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10:38<jkc>Unless you're the developer yourself, most available information is generated by someone answering a "wtf."
10:38<jkc>At least, that's what I've come to believe.
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11:13<MrBar>where python in debian 11?
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11:17<Redentor>@MrBar, Install it with the command: "apt install python3"
11:19<MrBar>it installed already but there only python3 not python
11:21<tjcarter>MrBar: Python 2 was declared (for the last time) in 2018 to be dead dead dead, not getting any more development, no security bugs will be fixed even, stop using it, for the love of God LET IT DIE … so Debian 11 is really trying to accommodate.
11:21<tjcarter>For security reasons if none else.
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11:22<MrBar>i need python verson3
11:22<tjcarter>python3 is there :)
11:22<umlaeute>you got it. and the binary is named "python3"
11:22<Sqrt{not}>MrBar, install package python-is-python3
11:23<MrBar>good now
11:23<umlaeute>but beware that traditionally 'python' meant python2, so Py2(-only) scripts that use 'python' in their shebang would fail (as opposed to "not run at all")
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11:24<MrBar>ya i know
11:24<Sqrt{not}>this will all be fixed with python4, which is even more incompatible with 2 and 3
11:25<Sqrt{not}>who knows, maybe?
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11:25<Sqrt{not}>I just stick to fortran for scripting, and assembler for every thing else
11:26<another>shouldn't this be covered by update-alternatives?
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11:26<MrBar>i wonder too
11:26<tjcarter>Sqrt{not}: Python devs consider the compatibility break to be a horrible idea in retrospect. They will not allow Python 4 to repeat that mistake.
11:26<Sqrt{not}>and why couldn
11:26<redbrass>Using Debian, I need to create a disk image file with two partitions, from inside a Docker container. losetup/kpartx are proving a little unstable inside the container. Is there another way to setup partitions that may work better in Docker?
11:26<Sqrt{not}>'couldn't they see that in advance?
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11:27<ansgar>Sqrt{not}: Optimism :)
11:27<MrBar>redbrass do not use Docker
11:28<MrBar>it easy
11:29<tjcarter>Sqrt{not}: they underestimated people's stubborn refusal to make what seemed like minimal changes (that weren't so minimal in the end.)
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11:31<twb>redbrass: does it using parted and mtools, to avoid ever needing root or /dev
11:31<ansgar>tjcarter: They aren't even complete. How Python handles str/bytes in interactions with the outside world is missing lots of things.
11:31<twb>redbrass: this technique is not available if you need in-kernel filesystem drivers
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11:31<another>redbrass: hmmm.. maybe qemu-nbd ?
11:32<ansgar>tjcarter: They assume some encodings are used in places where the system uses bytes (like in filenames on Linux) and not everywhere there is an interface to use the bytes version...
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11:33<tjcarter>ansgar: I seem to recall bytes being used for filenames?
11:34<tjcarter>I remember discovering a problem because I'd assumed they weren't.
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11:34<ansgar>tjcarter: In some places, but the `tarfile` module only uses `str`.
11:34<twb>Note that if you use ZFS, you can enforce u'' for paths
11:34<redbrass>MrBar: No choice on the docker thing - the process has to run in a Gitlab runner (yes there are other options for the runners, but docker is the "best practice" there...)
11:35<ansgar>twb: And with NTFS I guess you can enforce UCS-2? :)
11:35<ansgar>Or does NTFS support Unicode these days?
11:35<redbrass>twb: thanks - I'm reviewing the link. We do need kernel drivers, but we do out of tree modules for that.
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11:36<redbrass>another: I've touched into qemu-nbd, but mostly for mouting existing partitions. I'll take another look and see if I can create/populate partitions with it.
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11:36<twb>redbrass: what I mean is, this option only works because mtools is a userland implementation. So you could also have ext or ntfs partitions, but not ZFS or true UDF.
11:37<twb>ansgar: Windows is UTF-16 now. I'm not sure about NTFS. On Linux, ntfs-3g behaves like a regular unix (i.e. bytes)
11:38<twb> normalization=formD
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11:39<ansgar>twb: Hmm, Wikipedia says NTFS uses UTF-16 in Win32 and POSIX namespaces (not sure what that is).
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11:41<tjcarter>ansgar: that Windows filenames can only hold U+0000 to U+FFFF and that each character is stored as two bytes.
11:41<tjcarter>vs. the UTF-8 encoding where the number of characters used is arbitrary
11:41<twb> (via )
11:41<twb>tjcarter: er... that's UCS-2.
11:42<twb>tjcarter: are you sure your information is post NT5.1 ?
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11:42<tjcarter>XP, which I think was 6
11:42<twb>XP was 5.1
11:43<twb>7 is 6
11:43<twb>Er wait 7 is 6.1
11:43*tjcarter stabs the person who versions products at Microsoft
11:43<twb>Anyway, quite old.
11:43<another>NTFS has their own version numbers, btw
11:43<twb>Your information is accurate and makes sense for UCS-2 era Windows, but I don't *think* it's still true for UTF-16 era
11:44<tjcarter>All the documentation from that era called it "UTF-16" as I recall
11:44<tjcarter>I know it's not correct, that doesn't seem to matter a whole lot.
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11:45<tjcarter>I have gotten Microsoft to fix bugs in Windows, but not correctly use and describe standards correctly. I'm only human after all.
11:46<tjcarter>anyway … I think I get to disconnect about now
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12:04<MrBar>who purge cython from bullseye and why?
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12:08<jkc>MrBar: Likely because python 2 is EOL and no longer supported.
12:08<twb>Eyeballing it looks like it's broken af
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12:09<twb>MrBar: it sounds like you're upgrading your python2 codebase 3 years late? ;-)
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12:10<MrBar> cython support py3
12:10<jkc>cython3 does.
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12:13<MrBar>beautiful now
12:14<MrBar>and clear
12:14<MrBar>in buster cython support both 2 and 3
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12:14<jkc>They were version-specific in buster as well.
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12:15<MrBar>but it support both -2 -3
12:15<jkc>Not sure what else to say other than what I just said. cython was for py2. cython3 was/is for py3.
12:16<jkc>The packages' deps will tell you as much.
12:16<MrBar>i just install cython n buster and use it with -3 for python3
12:17<jkc>Okay, great, but ... read what I just said.,
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12:17<MrBar>yeah right
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12:17<nadab>How can I write to a file every time Debian has received a power off or restart signal? Or detect in any way that a shutdown has been initiated?
12:18<MrBar>clear now but wait
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12:18<MrBar>there /usr/bin/cython3 and where cython ?
12:18<jkc>There is no more cython.
12:18<twb>MrBar: it doesn't exist anymore. It will not come back.
12:18<jkc>You have cython3. And that's it.
12:19<MrBar>i need cython version 3
12:19<MrBar>not just cython3
12:19<jkc>That's what you have. I don't understand how this is unclear.
12:19<tjcarter>MrBar: make a symlink ffs
12:20<MrBar>is there cython_as_cython3
12:20<jkc>Why do you need it? Just use cython3, Christ.
12:20<MrBar>no i need cython-is-cython3
12:21<jkc>Why do you need another package when its literally ONE ADDITIONAL KEYSTROKE?
12:21<ansgar>MrBar: ln -s /usr/bin/cython3 /usr/local/bin/cython?
12:21<twb>I'd have said ~/local/bin but w/e
12:21<MrBar>it religion
12:22<tjcarter>ansgar: you realize he's going to include the ? in that.
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12:22<jkc>MrBar: I'm an atheist. Quit being stupid.
12:22<tjcarter>then whine that it's not working
12:22<MrBar>it is not polite
12:22<jkc>Neither am I. If you can't adapt to an extra keystroke, then quit.
12:23<dpkg>methinks plonk is the sound that a name makes when hitting the ignore list or or killfile. Plonk is British and Canadian slang for cheap wine. "Rodney, you plonker."
12:23<tristero>nadab: see the systemd-shutdown man page
12:24<jkc>Out of respect for everyone else, I think I might just spend the rest of the day as an observer.
12:24<nadab>tristero: thank you
12:24<jkc>I'm just not having it today.
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12:24<twb>nadab: note that wtmp and journal both log that already
12:25<tjcarter>jkc: I will be doing the same. My next reply to this dimwit is likely to start using universal English words, and that's somewhat discouraged here as I understand it.
12:25<twb>nadab: e.g. "last" will print "reboot system boot 4.19.0-10-amd64 Thu Sep 24 14:09 - 14:28 (00:18)"
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12:25<jkc>LAST. That was the command I couldn't remember.
12:25<twb>nadab: and "journalctl --list-boots"
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12:26<twb>I guess strictly speaking, those are boots, not shut downs
12:26-!-christophe [~christoph@2a01:e0a:66:1020:4953:3298:aca6:bdbc] has quit []
12:26<tjcarter>Patience is finite, and I'm out.
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12:26<nadab>twb: my problem is that last is too slow. i need to detect right away when the shutdown/reboot is initiated
12:26<twb>nadab: what's the user story?
12:28<nadab>i have a "down script" in my OpenVPN client conf file. The script executes when the VPN tunnel goes down. Unfortunately it also executes during reboot/shutdown because OpenVPN cant distinguish between a shutdown or the tunnel just going down
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12:29<twb>What is this script doing, that it should do when "the internet is down" but not "the power button was pressed" ?
12:29<MrBar>difinitely when shutdown then tunnel just going down
12:29<nadab>twb: it restarts openvpn. it's a long story
12:29<twb>nadab: I'm asking because this sounds like an X/Y problem, that can be solved better further up the chain
12:30<twb>nadab: ah so basically OpenVPN is set to "try to always stay on", and its firing during shutdown?
12:30<twb>Is upgrading to wireguard an option? ;-)
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12:30<nadab>and when its firing during shutdown, the computer hangs
12:30<nadab>i wish
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12:30<imMute>nadab: doesn't openvpn have an auto-restart thing built in?
12:30<twb>nadab: can you set the "always restart" in the systemd unit? systemd knows when systemd is shutting down
12:31<twb>Also what imMute said
12:31<MrBar>nadab: use tinc vpn
12:31<nadab>yeah but i can't use it, it's a long story
12:31<imMute>nadab: you can't use the exact tool that fixes your problem? gonna need that long explanation then.
12:31<twb>nadab: you only need this to work under systemd, right?
12:31<MrBar>use virtual net dev attached to permanet bridge intarface didicated to vpn
12:32<imMute>MrBar: please stop. you're not helping.
12:32<twb>nadab: I think you want something like "when systemctl --get-current-target == shutdown.taret, do nothing"
12:32<twb>nadab: but I don't remember exactly what that query is
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12:33<nadab>imMute: OK. The story starts here: I use OpenVPN to connect to a Tor hidden VPN service (.onion). OpenVPN can only resolve the .onion when using Tor name servers, so I have up/down scripts to change name servers and... Must i continue?
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12:34<twb>nadab: does systemd know that your openvpn service depends on your tor service?
12:34<nadab>I'm not using systemctl to start openvpn, i have my own startup script
12:34<twb>systemd doesn't handle that very well
12:34<imMute>nadab: so systemd isn't managing the openvpn instance at all? yeah, I'm out, that's a bad design.
12:34<tjcarter>twb: sure it does. You just create a .service file so it knows to start it aaaand … make it depend on tor.
12:35<twb>tjcarter: I mean "systemd doesn't handle well 'I'm using my own script'; systemd wants to be in charge of everything"
12:35<tjcarter>twb: it did come out of RedHat…
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12:36<twb>nadab: I understand how you get into that situation; it might be fixable but you'd have to do a bunch of fiddle-farting around to "systemdize" everything
12:36<imMute>tjcarter: thing meant to manage services doesn't handle services not started by it? color me surprised, and find me an init that *does* handle that.
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12:36<twb>nadab: e.g. using networkd and resolved instead of ifupdown, so that you can force .onion resolution to go to the right place
12:36<tjcarter>twb: having a startup script might be worthwhile if it's complex, but ultimately yeah, he's gonna wind up needing to get systemd involved if he wants things to happen in the right order.
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12:37<twb>nadab: in the meantime, you need the equivalent of "runlevel"
12:37<twb>nadab: $ /sbin/runlevel ==> N 5 normally, or something else during shutdown
12:37<nadab>If I could run my script whenever the tun0 adapter appeared or disappeared maybe
12:37<twb>nadab: I *THINK* that still holds due to backcompat
12:37<nadab>twb: Yeah we tried but unfortunately when the down script executes, runlevel hasn't changed yet, for some reason
12:38<twb>nadab: you could do that if you had networkd as the iface management layer
12:38<twb>nadab: OK. If that's the case, then the other thing I suggested with systemctl also won't help
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12:38<twb>nadab: is it viable to just add like a "sleep 10" into the restart script
12:38<twb>nadab: by then shutdown probably finished
12:38<imMute>systemctl is-active ?
12:39<Tj>nadab:n is openvpn controlled via systemd? if so add an override to its .service file with [Unit] ""
12:39<nadab>Yes but I didn't think it would work. I thought shutdown waited for the script to finish doing everything including sleeping?
12:39<twb>imMute: thanks. But I think that's gonna have the same problem as /sbin/runlevel
12:39<nadab>Tj no
12:39<imMute>twb: still worth trying, who knows what /sbin/runlevel actually does on a systemd system
12:39<twb>nadab: not *your* script, no
12:39<twb>nadab: in any case, systemd has a 90s timeout on almost everything
12:40<twb>Tj: FWIW that conflict is implied unless you set NoDefaultThingy=yes
12:40<nadab>twb: Ok then you just solved it I think. Let me try adding 10 seconds sleep..
12:41<tjcarter>imMute: yup. And if you're writing something for which you might provide a .service, you should since it covers most Linux installs. The rest? You could include a LSB init script, but you can't reasonably determine when it'd be used without fragile hacks—the haters have gone to extraordinary means to make it hard to see systemd isn't running.
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12:41<Tj>twb: I'm not aware of that directive; it's not mentioned in systemd.directives
12:41<imMute>tjcarter: agreed. except I only write .service files, fuck init scripts.
12:41<twb>Tj: yeah sorry I can't see the one I remember
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12:41<twb>imMute: it only gets turned off for things involved in initrd and early boot
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12:42<twb>imMute: DefaultDependencies=no
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12:42<tjcarter>imMute: I don't believe it has the best technical implementation, and I really hated it until different levels of documentation were basically in sync with how things are currently done, but … we're there. It ain't perfect but it works well enough.
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12:43<twb>imMute: ^
12:43<imMute>twb: wrong person.
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12:43<MrBar>nadab: just for curious, mabe it better use dnssec + tor without onion?
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12:44<twb>MrBar: dnssec is a shitshow. shows basically every dns server/client/proxy implementor saying "this is awful; kill it with fire"
12:44<twb>dns-over-tls might be reasonable.
12:44<twb>(dnssec isn't even encrypted)
12:45<nadab>twb: I tried sleep 10 and 20 seconds. It still hangs on reboot waiting for my sleeping script?
12:45<twb>MrBar: really. The reason dnssec is so bad, is they wanted to preserve the ability of governments to spy on their citizens.
12:45<twb>nadab: hrm
12:45<twb>nadab: this is inside the script that only runs with openvpn crashes?
12:45<tjcarter>imMute: systemd is complex enough that it needs documentation at several different levels of understanding. That's IMO part of its implementation limitations. If you have to teach people a whole vocabulary for "the thing what starts stuff" (I realize it does a lot more), it's probably not ideal IMO
12:46<MrBar>twb: right
12:46<tjcarter>It's what we've got though.
12:46<nadab>twb: yes the down script that restarts openvpn when the connection goes down (and unfortunately on shutdown)
12:46<twb>tjcarter: systemd is a bad implementation of a good idea -- that idea being launchd ;-)
12:47<tjcarter>launchd is a bad implementation of a good idea too 😁
12:47<twb>nadab: I can't explain why that fires on boot.
12:47<twb>nadab: sorry, I'm out of ideas.
12:47<twb>nadab: pester your boss to switch to wg, and/or to systemdize the setup
12:48<tjcarter>But Apple did it the way they did because they use those plists everywhere and they're part of libSystem (libc effectively)
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12:49<tjcarter>…libSystem is a monolithic nightmare, but that's a whole offtopic rant, so I'll send it straight to /dev/null
12:49<nadab>tbw OK thank you anyway. Maybe I can look into networkd
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12:52<apkef>nadab: have you seen monit
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12:53<nadab>No, what's that?
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12:53<mooff>yeah, i think launchd is worse than systemd lol
12:53<jkc>launchd is *barf*
12:53<mooff>i don't think systemd is that bad
12:54<mooff>it grew on me
12:54<jkc>systemd has been great to me.
12:54<jkc>I use monit for service management on BSD boxes. It's great.
12:54<mooff>the journal is a different matter. mainly the journalctl UX. i miss log files
12:54<jkc>It doesn't take much to adapt journalctl invocation to give you the same experience.
12:55<mooff>yeah, it just took a while to 'fit'
12:55<jkc>I will admit that there is something gloriously simple about 'grep' ;)
12:56<Tj>I find journal much more powerful and usable than multiple log files
12:56<Tj>something weird happened during a 10 minute window? "journalctl --since="1 hour ago" --until="50 minutes ago" "
12:57<jkc>That's actually an alias for me.
12:57<jkc>wtf <start> <end>
12:57<Tj>and seeing all service messages interleaved or per-unit
12:57<MrBar>now with bullseye i try install network with networking, i use complex setup with bridge and get hardware problem with net card it hand and work only with power reset, now i switch to systemd-networkd that work well without bridge-utils now
12:57<mooff>i think it might have helped if --no-pager was the default
12:58<Tj>I like that pager is the default; saves remembering to pipe to less
12:58<mooff>it just felt clunky compared to grepping with line wraps :)
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12:58<scorpion2185[m]>I have eric6 web browser, I can't find info about it what's the package name?
12:59<scorpion2185[m]>It can't find it in software and I cannot open it
13:00<Tj>the fact output can be in a large number of different formats as well, makes automated processing much simpler
13:00<MrBar>scorpion2185[m]: and what version of debian you use?
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13:01<Tj>scorpion2185[m]: according to apt-file it is the package "eric" on bullseye
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13:02<MrBar>scorpion2185[m]: eric is a full featured Python IDE
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13:04<MrBar>there no eric6 web browser
13:04<MrBar>you can write it in eric
13:04<mooff> lol
13:05<mooff>"implementing a web browser with eric6, Python, PyQt5 and QWebEngineView"
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13:05<MrBar>it good idea install web browser by write it in eric
13:05<aloo_shu>journalctl is a good example: great and even intuitive useability, but woven into a dependency web - I remember a time when, for whatever reason, the journal file couldn't be opened for writing, and it resulted in boot getting stuck in relatively unobvious ways
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13:06<Tj>eric: /usr/share/doc/eric/Source/index-eric6.WebBrowser.Bookmarks.html
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13:08<MrBar>or rewrite it in rust
13:08<mooff>;-) MrBar
13:08<Tj>aloo_shu: but in fairness that can be said about any piece of complex and developing software; I could point to bugs in Linux kernel for example that achieve the same effect in edge-case scenarios
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13:09<mooff>i like very much that persistence is enabled / disabled based on whether /var/log/journal/ exists
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13:09<mooff>and that there's journalctl --flush to persist a live data set, when it was disabled
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13:12<Tj>Yes, and with containers can choose whether to log to container journal or host
13:12<Tj>and query remote hosts with the --host option
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13:13<Tj>the one downside to the journal is legal; GDPR, and subject PII data removal
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13:14<Tj>same issue as with git and other append-only databases
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13:14<mooff>oh God - what do you do in that case?
13:14<mooff>'journalctl rebase -i' ?
13:15<mooff>isn't it designed to be tamper-proof?
13:15<mwalle>hey, quick question, are the brightness buttons of a thinkpad (x260) supposed to work in debian bullseye? I'm using sway. backlight is working (by setting the sysfs attribute manually), acpi_listen shows the events. I was always using a keybinding on XF86MonBrightness{Up,Down}. Is there a translation between the acpi events and input events?
13:16<Tj>mooff: I've still not figured out how scrubbing PII can be done because it means you've got to replay the entire log and rebuild a clone without the 'offending' entries
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13:17<jkc>mooff: There are numerous exceptions to GDPR deletion requirements. Technical infeasibility is one.
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13:17<mooff>jkc: thank the Lord
13:18<jkc>Retaining data in defence of legal claims is another, of which system logs are absolutely a part.
13:18<aloo_shu>Tj: translates back to 'how much complexity does an init system need', a valid question even pre-systemd, and without any one single correct answer
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13:20<twb>If you want a minimal init, systemd has one of those as well :-)
13:20<twb>systemd-nspawn --pid2=/bin/emacs uses it as pid1
13:21<twb>--as-pid2, sorry
13:21<jkc>mooff: There's even a specific point about system logs.
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13:30<tjcarter>twb: lol
13:30<Tj>aloo_shu: I've found systemd to be easier to reason about that sysvinit and others, even when the complexity initially either confuses me or annoys me :)
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13:32<Tj>We're acheiving some quite complex objectives based around systemd, machined, nspawn, networkd, slices and scopes very elegantly and with predictability
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13:34<apkef>nadab: can you use --up cmd and --down cmd of openvpn to run your scripts?
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13:40<mooff>twb: it wouldn't surprised me if you actually used that ;)
13:41<twb>mooff: I don't; I use procd. I don't bother with containers at all, I just set aggressive ns/cgroup properties in the unit.
13:42<twb> <-- working web app that can't do TCP or talk to remote hosts
13:42<mooff>that's my approach at the minute, too
13:43<twb>I find that gets me 80% of the way to "hardened" with 2-4 hours of effort. Whereas apparmor or containers are substantially more work
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13:43<twb>So I harden things that otherwise wouldn't get hardened at all
13:43<mooff>what gave you the exposure level?
13:44<twb>mooff: I don't understand the question
13:44<mooff>the last line of the file @ 3vlb
13:45<mooff>ah - i curled it and didn't bother to check the top!
13:45<aloo_shu>predictability <-> edge cases? perhaps one silent virtue of the old status quo was that, without much visibility, pretty much any edge case misbehaviour had been reported by grumpy old end users to grumpy old maintainers - entirely a social quality, not one of software elegance
13:46<mooff>i think things like firecracker are the future
13:46<mooff>at least one very pleasant part of it
13:46<imMute>tjcarter: I agree, it can be complex. But I felt the exact same thing trying to learn other init systems (like upstart), so I don't think it's unique to systemd. Lennart has some writeups focused on specific kinds of users, like this one for admins: I think they're pretty helpful for getting started.
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13:47<twb>mooff: #929256
13:47<judd>Bug in ntpsec (open, patch): «systemd lockdown for ntpsec-rotate-stats.service»; severity: wishlist; opened: 2019-05-20; last modified: 2019-06-05.
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13:48<tertu>i guess this is more of a broad question, but how well does lvmcache work for read caching?
13:49<tertu>as in it's not a debian specific question. i'd be using an old nvme drive backed by a hard drive.
13:49<twb>mooff: are you aware of qemu-systemd-x86_64-microvm ?
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13:49<mooff>and if it doesn't require KVM, i will love it!
13:49<twb>mooff: it's "firecracker for qemu"
13:50<twb>I couldn't get Debian Live to boot under it without allowing legacy serial. And I couldn't get network working, at which point I got bored.
13:50<mooff>one of the big appeals of firecracker is its codebase
13:50<twb>I was testing rootless, but with kvm allowed
13:51<mooff>qemu is a big collection of C, written by a genius, but still C
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13:53<twb>firecracker isn't in Debian yet. No WNPP even.
13:53<mooff>obviously it's still excellent, but for developing a hosting platform i would choose firecracker
13:53<Tj>tertu: are you considering 'cache' or 'writecache' - only 'cache' helps with reads
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13:53<twb>Tj: is that equivalent of ZFS's l2arc ?
13:54<twb>When bcache turned into a full filesystem, was when I gave up waiting for btrfs to not suck, and standardized on ZFS.
13:55<twb>LVM can already replace md RAID, so if LVM can do bcache/l2arc equivalent, maybe LVM+ext4 (with RAID1 + cache) is a viable plan B
13:56<Tj>ZFS isn't a choice for us (all modules must be in mainline) but it has some constraints that cramp flexibility
13:56<Tj>one operation we do frequently is expanding and shrinking volumes
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14:12<tertu>i was considering the lv type cache
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14:27<Tj>tertu: 'cache' type is good for read/write caching
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14:29<tjcarter>I've used bcache before… Not lvm's, though, so I couldn't say there's and advantage of one over the other.
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14:31<tjcarter>I've been sticking with standard ext4 on lvm for spanning and redundancy, on LUKS. I'd have considered btrfs but … you cannot control btrfs through lvm's usual interfaces (resizing things, etc.)
14:31<twb>oh I forgot about LUKS
14:32<twb>ZFS is way nicer there
14:32<another>tjcarter: are you missing anything else besides resizing?
14:32<twb>You can do incremental backups with the backup server never having the decrypt key
14:32<tjcarter>another: I'd just like fsadm in general
14:33<twb>another: Oracle needs to relicense it from CDDL to GPL2 :-)
14:33<another>twb: What?
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14:34<twb>tjcarter: you can't shrink a pool (equivalent of an LVM PV), but you *can* change the size of datasets (LVs)
14:34<another>tjcarter: resizing requires 1 additional command. Not a particularly high hurdle
14:35<twb>Not sure if you can reduce volblocksize for block datasets. My grumpy answer was to use virtiofsd and skip that layer entirely
14:35<tjcarter>the issue is that it's kinda easy to screw things up having those two commands be separate
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14:37<mooff>anyone here use gPodder?
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14:37<jkc>You can bake the fs resize into the lv resize command.
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14:37<mooff>i just started - seems ideal - but i can't make it show "downloaded episodes"
14:37<mooff>it simply always shows the whole list
14:38<twb>lvm2 lvextend --size +2G --resizefs DoJ/pornography
14:38<twb>Only works for ext and xfs, IIRC
14:38<jkc>Goes through fsadm.
14:38<jkc>So, basically, yes.
14:38<jkc>And reiserfs, but...
14:39<tjcarter>but who goes anywhere near reiserfs anymore?
14:40<mooff>ah, #688000 clears it up - just bad / under explained UX
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14:40<judd>Bug in gpodder (forwarded, fixed-upstream): «gpodder: "View downloaded episodes" views un-downloaded episodes»; severity: wishlist; opened: 2012-09-18; last modified: 2020-11-26.
14:41*mooff Ctrl-a, right click, unselect "New"
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14:54<ElPresidente>Every time I boot my system it says something like "debian-vg not found" but then boots normally. Is this normal?
14:54<ElPresidente>Encrypted setup btw
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14:54<tjcarter>it's normal
14:54<bremner>ElPresidente: typically lvm complains, then retries
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14:55<tjcarter>It looks for the LVM before you decrypt the LUKS devices, but can't find them until after.
14:55<ElPresidente>ah I see
14:55<tjcarter>It's set up that way so you can put LUKS devices in LVM, or LVM devices in LUKS
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14:56<tjcarter>Or both, but if you're doing that you should be beaten soundly.
14:56*tjcarter beats ansgar soundly
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14:57<tjcarter>Actually, the proper punishment for ansgar suggesting that would be to set his system up so that'd actually work, configure his filesystems that way, and then make him use it. 😈
14:58<jkc>YOu monster.
14:58<ansgar>tjcarter: It should just work if the system just automatically looks at whatever becomes available.
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15:00<Tj>assuming udev, that will 'just work'
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15:01<tjcarter>ansgar: it unfortunately doesn't.
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15:01<tjcarter>I'd like it to be
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15:04<Tj>it does here - what are you doing wrong!?
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15:05<tjcarter>Tj: Using LVM and LUKS
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15:06<tjcarter>Both of which activate by consulting things to decide what to do rather than just looking at partitions and devices and asking, "do I know what to do with this?"
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15:24<dury>hi there channel :-)
15:24<sarnold>hey dury
15:25<dury>hi there sarnols
15:26<dury>sarnold, how's things?
15:27<dury>sarnold, is bullseye stable?
15:28<tjcarter>dury: bullseye is "stable" (as in the Debian designation). It's got a couple of quibbles for people as you'd expect from a .0 release, but it works well for most.
15:28<sarnold>dury: it seems to be, honestly you might not even know there was a new debian release except folks are finding the name of the security updates repo has changed
15:28<tjcarter>Stable in Debian means we're not going to do anything that's likely to break anything in it and leave versions of things were they are.
15:29<tjcarter>and that.
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15:30<HAL_6900_>Is Debian BSD project still alive?
15:30<HAL_6900_>I forgot the name.
15:30<twb>Debian GNU/kFreeBSD
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15:30<tjcarter>I still see packages being added to it
15:30<twb>It still exists, but a while ago it was banned from holding up releases, IIRC
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15:31<twb>i.e. it's explicitly second-class
15:31<tjcarter>It's at least twice as likely to work as HURD for any given purpose!
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15:32<ansgar>tjcarter: Significantly more packages build for Hurd than for kFreebsd.
15:32<tjcarter>I believe that.
15:32<HAL_6900>Is there a Debian Hurd project?
15:33<ansgar>And the Hurd people seem also significantly more active compared to the kFreebsd people.
15:33<tjcarter>But I haven't noticed anything interesting happen with the kernel in some 20 years now.
15:33<sarnold>ansgar: wow really? neat
15:33<tjcarter>Debian seems to want to run more places than NetBSD, sort of.
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15:34<tjcarter>Once upon a time I saw Debian running on an Atari Falcon
15:34<ansgar>sarnold: At least the last two graphs linked on say so.
15:34<tjcarter>I sort of doubt it does anymore.
15:34<twb>frankly, I'm more interested in rv64gc than amd64-kfreebsd
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15:35<ansgar>twb: riscv{one-thousand-different-variants}? :>
15:36<tjcarter>twb: If I had a board with much more power than a Raspberry Pi that used it, I would be too.
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15:37<twb>ansgar: AFAICT the *practical* differences are no worse than 32-bit arm was
15:38<twb>ansgar: the majority of stuff is rv64gc or rv32imac
15:38<tjcarter>that's not saying much
15:38<ansgar>The return of the iMac!
15:38<tjcarter>32 bit ARM was a disaster
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15:39<twb>tjcarter: but it's a reasonable baseline/floor of "how ridiculous can we be and still be taken seriously
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16:23<Urk>I am wondering if the following command would let me change ownership from root root to pd pd: sudo chown -v -R pd:pd /home/pd/. I still have a bunch of ownership problems, and need to get rid of the root root that is in the following
16:24<crawler>Urk should be /home/pd OR /home/pd/*
16:24<imMute>crawler: I don't think the trailing slash matters
16:25<imMute>and the latter won't necessarily get all the files in the directory (dot files will likely be skipped)
16:25<crawler>imMute he used /home/pd/.
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16:25<imMute>oh, I missed the period. I don't think that would matter either though (I've not tested however)
16:26<jkc>Just use /home/pd
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16:28<Urk>jkc: It worked. Everything is changed.
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17:21<DoctorD90>hello! Im using xfce4, debian 11. Im trying using xfconf-query to setup the settings: PowerManager>Security>AutomaticallyLockTheScreen but what ever chang I did I cant find the correct property....anyone knows which is?
17:22<somiaj>have you tried a more specific xfce support channel, they may have more users who may konw the internals better
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17:26<DoctorD90>thanks somiaj is a xfce here (if you know?)
17:26<DoctorD90>nvm, find out! :) thanks!
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17:28<twb>DoctorD90: it's #xfce on Libera
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17:29<DoctorD90>thanks twb ! for the moment I tried on debian-xfce; to not cross post, I will wait the n8 :) otherwise I will try there! thanks for the tip!
17:30<twb>DoctorD90: OK. You might try xfce4-settings-editor -- I think that's the GUI version
17:30<twb>Once you've found the path to use you can go back to CLI
17:30<DoctorD90>uh! intersting! thanks!
17:31<DoctorD90>I was playing around checking md5/diff of local files to find out the channels and properties :D
17:31<DoctorD90>this should help em a lot!
17:31<twb>DoctorD90: they're generated from a schema anyway
17:32<DoctorD90>i understand that point...i miss the schema :D ahah
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17:32<twb>thunar-volman: /etc/xdg/xfce4/xfconf/xfce-perchannel-xml/thunar-volman.xml
17:32<twb>So you want /etc/xdg/xfce4/xfconf/xfce-perchannel-xml/xfce4-power-manager.xml
17:33<DoctorD90>oh! yes! you meant the location! sorry, I thought to the channel/properties. Yes! Im using the .config folder in local user path
17:34<DoctorD90>and checking there....but it seems there are no changes for that properties
17:35<somiaj>user settings won't change files in /etc though
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17:38<hannah>is tails pertinent to this channel?
17:39<hannah>because I have some observations to do.
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17:46<twb>hannah: no
17:46<twb>hannah: if you can reproduce problem on stock debian, you are welcome to get help here
17:46<dpkg>Tails (The Amnesic Incognito Live System) is a live DVD/USB <based on Debian>, with the aim of preserving privacy and anonymity. It is not supported in #debian. #tails on
17:47<hannah>is not a bug I believe, is that intrigues me the apt upgrade load sid content and virtualbox content.
17:48<twb>hannah: that sounds like a decision TAILS made to provide some/all content newer than in Debian stable
17:52<hannah>may ypo point me out a proper tails channel?
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17:54<hannah>what I get here in oftc is Cannot join #tails: Registration is required.
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17:58<twb>hannah: 07:58 *** TOPIC Tails support has moved to XMPP - See
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18:03<hannah>I am sorry for the ignorance but what means 'XMPP chat room'
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18:04<twb>hannah: it's a different protocol
18:04<twb>hannah: did you browse to ?
18:05<hannah>twb: yes I am on it now.
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18:27<mooff>how can i find a package's 'Vcs-Git' and 'Vcs-Browser' URLs from the cli?
18:27<mooff>not shown in 'apt info' or 'dpkg --status' unfortunately
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18:28<Sebastinas>apt showsrc
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18:29<twb>mooff: you might prefer to just run "dgit clone mg" since that doesn't require deb-src wasting 300MB+ of space in /var/lib/apt
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18:30<bremner>mooff: debcheckout -p
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18:32<mooff>often it's the Vcs-Browser i'm looking for first
18:32<bremner>often they are the same, these days
18:32<bremner>but not always
18:32<mooff>to look for issues, glance at the tree, or something
18:32<mooff>sounds like debcheckout and dgit would start a clone
18:33<mooff>(but thanks - they are also useful!)
18:33<twb>If you're already in a browser you can just browse to
18:33<bremner>hence the -p options
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18:37<mooff>what about the upstream VCS? :)
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18:37<mooff>(what's that new DEP?)
18:37<bremner>I think there's no reliable way
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18:40<mooff>(oh god - who chose the name UMEGAYA?)
18:40<mooff>(no cookies for them)
18:41<bremner>I think you'll find it exists in a pretty small fraction of packages
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18:45<mooff>highvoltage had a blog post recently about continuous delivery from upstreams based on debian/upstream/metadata
18:45<mooff>i think they said around 25-30% of packages had adopted it
18:45<pert>AppStream has a fair bit of overlap with DEP-12 and can provide upstream VCS info as well
18:47<bremner>mooff: I guess those most DEP-12 usage is in one or two specialized teams (debian-med and debian-science)
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18:48<bremner>I don't know what the uptake on AppStream is. I never found it interesting as a packager, but that could just be me.
18:49<bremner>I guess that a fair number of "desktop" upstreams include AppStream data. Whether it is installed properly etc... I don't know.
18:49<mooff>it may not have been highvoltage btw, i can't seem to find the post, but it did make the rounds a few weeks ago
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19:58<bertha>for the holt Lord, why oftc is the only tor friendly server?
19:59<raven523>because tor's main channels are here
20:04<tjcarter> is also tor friendly
20:05<tjcarter>about half of what was on freenode left after the big "leenode" flap
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20:06<bremner>or only 90% if you count users rather than projects. But I digress...
20:07<tjcarter>some pretty big ones did not move sadly
20:07<tjcarter>#raspberrypi is still on freenode
20:07-!-deltron [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:07<Tenkawa>tjcarter: no its not
20:08<Tenkawa>its on libera
20:09<tjcarter>The one there says clearly in the topic that it isn't even the channel recognized by the RPF (which the Freenode one was)
20:10<tjcarter>The Freenode channel was informal, but RPF devs used it
20:10<Tenkawa>tjcarter: because noone is recognized as the "official" because freenode took all access away
20:10<Tenkawa>they wiped the nickserv database too
20:11<Tenkawa>those are old records
20:11<tjcarter>the record in question isn't on Freenode, it's on the RPi website
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20:12<Tenkawa>the foundation never updates their docs
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20:12<Tenkawa>they are notorious for that
20:13<tjcarter>I'll make a note of poking shiftplusone until he does then
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20:14<Tenkawa>there's 485 people on the libera channel right now.
20:15<Tenkawa>people don't want to touch freenode with a 10000 mile anything
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20:15<sussudio>just accept that freenode is dead, like that dipshit's lovelife.
20:16<Tenkawa>sussudio: I'm sad to admit I use to own a hub on openprojects/linprojects/freenode after this mess
20:16<tjcarter>I do not want to know anything about the aforementioned dipshit's lovelife. I moderately care about the IRC network for any project that still exists there
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20:17<Booda>i2p IRC is underrated
20:17*Tenkawa misses the old days
20:18<tjcarter>Tenkawa: The really old days. Like when the servers were named things like "root"
20:18<Tenkawa>yeah or hub.
20:18*Tenkawa had asimov.
20:18<tjcarter>And Debian had < 1000 packages.
20:19<Tenkawa> if anyone remembers it
20:19<tjcarter>I know nobody remembers that anymore
20:19<Tenkawa>this was late 90's early 2000's
20:19<tjcarter>1997 for me
20:20<Tenkawa>I started in 95
20:20<mooff>Rizon, EFnet, DALnet, QuakeNet
20:20*mooff /msg Q help
20:20<tjcarter>I started IRC in 94, but wasn't a Linux user until 1997
20:21*abrotman looks at #debian-offtopic
20:21<Tenkawa>oh I was a irc "user" much much earlier
20:21<Tenkawa>abrotman: sorry.. (now theres a familiar name)
20:21*tjcarter nods at abrotman, if someone starts asking help-related stuff, we really need to clear bandwidth for them to do so
20:22<abrotman>ugh, was wondering if Volatile still existed .. but seems not
20:22<abrotman>not really
20:23*abrotman wonders how a package qualifies for stable-updates
20:23<sussudio>abrotman: a horse has to approve it.
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20:24<abrotman>sussudio: not a meep?
20:24<tjcarter>either there's a committee and a policy for it, or you need to send $beverage to someone in the archive maintenance team
20:24<sussudio>abrotman: neigh.
20:25<somiaj>probably the same way they need to qualify to be in a point release (if it wasn't security fix)
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20:25<somiaj>though the irssi fix going through stable-proposed-updates vs security was a bit odd
20:27<bertha1>libera server for sure blacklisted tor
20:27<raven523>they didn't
20:27<abrotman>I was thinking about mmark/xml2rfc
20:27<raven523>but you do need to have SASL authentication set up
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20:28<somiaj>most places just require you register vs be use an anynomous account, but maybe #libera on the other network could give you correct info
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20:28<bertha1>raven523: I am using SASL
20:29<another>IIRC it's SASL EXTERNAL specifically
20:29<bertha1>unless be registered is another demand
20:29<bremner>how does sasl work for unregistered?
20:29<raven523>you can't use SASL without being registered
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20:31<tjcarter>if you connect with some IP address that isn't a known VPN or tor, you can register with services using a certificate, then set that up over SASL and reconnect. Thenafter you should be able to use VPN or Tor to connect to
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20:54<kpcyrd>in this channel: debian!
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21:00<ardakc>why nobody not talking in there
21:01<abrotman>sometimes that happens
21:01<abrotman>it's a support channel, not a social channel
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21:05<ardakc>do you know some linux social channels?
21:05<ardakc>i need to talk someone
21:05<dpkg>This is not a chat channel, this is a Debian user support channel. Unless you have a Debian support question, please chat elsewhere, like #debian-offtopic or #moocows; or search for a chat topic of your choice at
21:05<bremner>suggestions ^
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21:46<Urk>Would someone be able to provide guidance on how to copy a Libreoffice profile from one user to another? I took a look at the following URL, but it doesn't make sense to me for the GNU/Linux I need to retain and restore histories of previously opened documents with LibreOffice.
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21:47<sarnold>Urk: those may not be portable from user to user -- if the program has stored the full path to documents, those paths won't work for the new user
21:48<Urk>sarnold: Path should be the same except for the pdq becoming pd.
21:48<Urk>Comments I read in suggest that it might be possible to copy a profile, but it won't be possible to merge profiles, but maybe I am not understanding something.
21:50<mooff>you could do an interesting potential hack
21:50<mooff>that might land you back here for another issue.. but might not
21:50<mooff>you could move /home/pdq to /home/pdq.old .. then symlink /home/pdq to /home/pd :-)
21:51<mooff>then your recent history paths would still work, in theory
21:51<sarnold>given how much trouble urk's had over the last month or so, I suspect that'd be vastly more trouble than he needs
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21:52<Urk>All I want is to recover the histories of documents previously opened in Libreoffice.
21:53<sarnold>that's the feature of the profiles that I think is least likely to transfer over smoothly
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21:55<sarnold><item oor:path="/org.openoffice.Office.Histories/Histories/org.openoffice.Office.Histories:HistoryInfo['PickList']/OrderList"><node oor:name="3" oor:op="replace"><prop oor:name="HistoryItemRef" oor:op="fuse"><value>file:///home/sarnold/Downloads/public.ods</value></prop></node></item>
21:55<sarnold>note /home/sarnold/Downloads in that line.. it encodes the full path, not a relative path
21:56<mooff>yes, i'm just reading that's stored in registrymodifications.xcu in the profile dir
21:57<mooff>could maybe whip up a sed line to replace /home/pdq/ -> /home/pd for Urk
21:57<sarnold>it *might* be a simple sed one-liner to fix it up, but ..
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21:57<Urk>mooff: All other profiles that I am aware of have been copied over, but LibreOffice was not one of them.
21:58<Urk>It isn't critical, but it does make it easier to find things. I just found one important text document that had prompted me to look for this.
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21:58<Urk>How would the Sed line work?
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21:59<Urk>Not sure I would want to replace what I already have in PD since everything is working, and the only thing missing is just the Libreoffice history of what documents were previously opened.
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22:02<sarnold>Urk: okay, you can try this: (1) close libreoffice completely (2) run sed -i~ -e 's|/home/pdq/|/home/pd/|g' /home/pd/.config/libreoffice/4/user/registrymodifications.xcu (3) see if it worked
22:03<Urk>What does this command do?
22:03<sarnold>Urk: the -i~ should make a backup copy in /home/pd/.config/libreoffice/4/user/registrymodifications.xcu~ that you can use in case it didn't work
22:03<sarnold>Urk: that replaces /home/pdq/ with /home/pd/ in that file
22:04<Urk>And only for LibreOffice?
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22:04<Urk>ok. I will try it. Thanks for your help.
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22:12<Urk>sarnold: Did you intend for me to leave th quotes around 's|, etc'?
22:13<sarnold>Urk: yes -- probably the command would explode in flames if it were left out :)
22:14<Urk>sarnold: No errors were returned, but so far don't have the old histories of the LibreOffice.
22:14<sarnold>Urk: dang :( I really had hopes for that one
22:15<sarnold>Urk: when you created your new user account, did you put your files in the exact same spot in your new home directory as they had in your old home directory?
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22:16<Urk>sarnold: I just cp -R /home/pdq/Documents to /home/pd/Documents. Everything seemed to copy over. I did that for Pictures, and Downloads as well.
22:16<Urk>Got to run. I have an appointment, but thanks so much for your help.
22:16<sarnold>see ya Urk
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22:23<mooff>i wonder if they need to chmod ~/.config/libreoffice
22:23<mooff>i suppose the sed would have blown up if that were true
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22:23<sarnold>it's possible, but elsewhere he said he did a chown, and I hope the cp -R did a good enough job with the mode bits..
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22:25<mooff>hi uos_zhangh, welcome to Debian, home of the Good Debian, can we take your order?
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22:27<uos_zhangh>I want to know which program the clipboard manager of debian is?
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22:28<sarnold>depending upon your system configuration there may not be one already running
22:29<sarnold>I don't know if any of the desktop environments ship one pre-enabled or not, but maybe one does..
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22:33<uos_zhangh>According to the description of this website,, I want to find the clipboard manager of the system and close this program
22:34<sarnold>oh wow, that's a nice looking website
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22:35<uos_zhangh>I want to verify if program A is copied, after closing the clipboard manager, if program A is closed, can it be copied in other programs
22:36<sarnold>uos_zhangh: the xowners.c program give at the very top can show you which process owns which clipboard, and then you can use xwininfo to find out what program that is. this is neat, I haven't seen this before :)
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22:41<uos_zhangh>Yes, you are right, but the website says that there is a clipboard manager at the end. I want to know if there is an easier way to find the clipboard manager
22:42<sarnold>heh, until reading that webpage I didn't think there was any good way to find out besides knowing all the processes running in your session and knowing what they do
22:46<uos_zhangh>Okay, thank you, I'll look for it again.
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22:51<fred27>hi. I just tried updating my debian install from release 10 to 11, but the laptop crashed part way through and now I can't get it to boot
22:52<fred27>I was able to boot from a live DVD, mount the filesystems, chroot into them, and complete the install but it still won't boot
22:52<somiaj>you might need to reinstall grub
22:52<dpkg>To reinstall <GRUB> boot to your Debian install disk/live CD, switch to the other console (Alt-F2), mount your root filesystem (mount -t ext4 /dev/whatever /target ; mount --bind /dev /target/dev ; mount -t proc none /target/proc ; mount -t sysfs none /target/sys), chroot into it (chroot /target), run "mount /boot/efi" on EFI and "update-grub && grub-install /dev/whatever". See also <rescue mode>, <dual boot guide>, <supergrub>.
22:52<fred27>the root partition is encrypted, but when I boot it doesn't prompt for the passphrase. I suspect that's part of the problem
22:53<fred27>thanks. I'll try that
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22:53<somiaj>might need to rebuild the initramfs if it isn't asking for encyrpted passwords
22:54<fred27>I've reinstalled the initramfs-tools package which rebuilds the initramfs
22:54<fred27>I've run update-grub, but not grub-install
22:54<somiaj>so what part of the boot fails, does grub fail? or does loading the kernel/initramfs/rootfs fail?
22:55<mooff>uos_zhangh: i recently started using CopyQ, you may like it (apt install copyq)
22:56<fred27>just rebooting now
22:56<mooff>the clipboard is still cleared when a program closes, but i can get it back (and any historical copy) by pressing a hotkey
22:56<fred27>I edited the /etc/defaults/grub file to ask it show the menu and wait indefinitely (previously it wasn't showing the menu, and was picking the first option automatally), but I still don't see the menu when it boots
22:57<mooff>uos_zhangh: there are other similar clipboard managers.. some may keep the contents after the copying program is closed
22:58<fred27>I see a call trace, and ---[ end Kernel panic - not syncing: VFS: Unable to mount root fs on unknown-block(0-0) ]---
22:59<uos_zhangh>mooff: fine, i will try right now,thank you.In fact, I want to verify that if there is no clipboard manager, other programs cannot be pasted after the program is closed.
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23:00<fred27>somiaj: I'm not sure how to tell. I'm guessing that since I don't see the grub menu it is grub that fails. but then I see a kernel panic, so perhaps it's the kernel
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23:01<mooff>uos_zhangh: that is naturally the case with X11
23:01<mooff>if you are saying things _are_ persisting, we would need more information to figure out why
23:01<mooff>and just installing copyq would be unlikely to stop it
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23:05<uos_zhangh>mooff: yes, you are right, maybe you can try on your computer, I uninstalled all programs that looked like a clipboard manager, but they can still be copied after closing the program. This is very confusing to me. I want to know why.
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23:09<mooff>uos_zhangh: if you are comfortable sharing the information, upload the output of 'ps auxf' to
23:09<mooff>then some eyes here will scan it to help look
23:09<mooff>also, if you could first confirm that 'echo $XDG_SESSION_TYPE' prints 'x11'
23:11<somiaj>fred27: not sure either, sounds like you have gone through the standard things I would suggest.
23:11<somiaj>But changing the config not effecting things could be maybe you are booting off an old grub install, is this efi or legacy?
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23:22<uos_zhangh>mooff: Thank you for your reminder, /usr/lib/gnome-settings-daemon/gsd-clipboard looks a bit like a clipboard manager. If I close this program, the entire system will log out.
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23:24<fred27>I made a little progress. it turns out I was mounting the wrong /boot partition so I had no initramfs on the correct /boot partition. but now when I boot I see the grub menu, then 'volume group laptop-vg not found' over and over
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23:25<fred27>again it didn't prompt for the cryptsetup passphrase
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23:25<mooff>cool, uos_zhangh
23:25<mooff>i would guess the system would not logout if you killed that, but if you have important work open, don't try it
23:27<uos_zhangh>mooff: I am using debian11 sid, x11
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23:34<somiaj>fred27: I don't know enough about the eternals of encryption to help, there are tools you can list the files in the initramfs, do you see the crypt stuff in there?
23:34<somiaj>fred27: lsinitramfs
23:35<uos_zhangh>mooff: i had been try again, kill gsd-clipboard, system will log out.
23:38<mooff>uos_zhangh: do you mean you tried it, and it did log you out?
23:40<uos_zhangh>mooff: yes,
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23:50<fred27>somiaj: I'll take a look, thanks
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23:56<fred27>somiaj: it contains usr/sbin/cryptsetup and a bunch of crypto modules at least
23:59<mooff>uos_zhangh: are you able to find out how to disable it?
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---Logclosed Thu Sep 09 00:00:30 2021