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#debian IRC Logs for 2021-09-16

---Logopened Thu Sep 16 00:00:19 2021
---Daychanged Thu Sep 16 2021
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01:05<Kurious>hi i was curious about firefox on sid. it seems to be held up at 88. Anyone know when it would be progressing?
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01:07<liquidsnake>what version of debian are you running Kurious
01:07<Kurious>i'm on sid.
01:08<liquidsnake>yeah but debian buster, bullseye, or a previous version
01:08<liquidsnake>?
01:09<liquidsnake>let me look at something
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01:09<Kurious>now it's bookworm/sid
01:10<crawler>sid sid
01:10<Kurious>yep
01:10<liquidsnake>https://www.reddit.com/r/debian/comments/pjoeyh/firefox_out_of_date_in_sid/
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01:12<crawler>Kurious I don't know, in case you didn't get a definite answer here, I would check debian sid mailing list about firefox
01:12<liquidsnake>can't you just install the newest version of firefox yourself?
01:12<Kurious>been watching developer package page https://tracker.debian.org/pkg/firefox .. used to be blocked by rustc now it's also blocked by libnss3-dev .. sad
01:12<liquidsnake>hmm
01:13<Kurious>yeah i can add the experimental, but i was hoping it would get unblocked with the move to bookworm. I'll just be patient. ^_^
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01:14<liquidsnake>gotcha
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01:17<Kurious>I do appreciate Mike Hommey pushing firefox. just need to be patient. i'm amd64.so it's rustc that's blocking.
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01:54<r4fkramer>Hi All. Please, I would like to know if anyone has a list of large customers who use Debian as a Development Platform (if such information exists).
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01:57<twb>What is a "development platform" ?
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01:58<PaddyF>r4fkramer: do you look for something like this: https://www.debian.org/consultants/
02:00<crawler>r4fkramer I use https://w3techs.com , and there another website but don't remember the address.
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02:00<r4fkramer>Thanks for answering PaddyF. twb, I meant: enterprises that use Debian as Dev Servers.
02:01<twb>I'm not sure what that means either.
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02:02<twb>Like... the hosts that run jenkins &c?
02:03<crawler>got it! https://builtwith.com/
02:03<r4fkramer>Fine crawler, I know this site - w3techs works with several categories
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02:03<r4fkramer>Thank You very much :)
02:03<r4fkramer>twb, I realize my english is not being precise. Let me try to explain it better.
02:04<r4fkramer>I meant: Developers that write codes, develop applications using Debian as OS.
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02:05<r4fkramer>That's I was looking for, crawler, thank you very much !
02:05<PaddyF>:)
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02:05<crawler>You better say, Enterprises in the field of software development that are adopting Debian OS in their infrastructure
02:06<r4fkramer>yes, crawler, perfect ! Sorry not being able to explain you precisely. But, your analysis is exactly what I was looking for.
02:07<crawler>no problem
02:07<crawler>Hey PaddyF, it is good to see you here :)
02:07<PaddyF>you shall not lie :P
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02:07<crawler>:D
02:08<maoma>Hello everyone :)
02:09<rojin>Hi, everyone. And hi to you maoma.
02:10<maoma>Hello Rojin :)
02:10<r4fkramer>I think I will appear here at this time more often.
02:10<rojin>I was installing nheko matrix client on bullseye and turns out there is a bug in the login form.
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02:11<rojin>Seems there is a new version in experimental but I dont know how to try it out.
02:11<r4fkramer>Bye all ! And thank you very much, PaddyF, crawler and twb for attention and Great Support !
02:12<PaddyF>r4fkramer: take care :)
02:12<r4fkramer>Yeah, PaddyF :) See You !
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02:12<somiaj>you don't install experiemntal packages in bullseye, you could try to backport it if you really wanted it
02:12<somiaj>!ssb
02:12<dpkg>First, check for a backport on <debian-backports>. If unavailable: 1) Add a deb-src line for sid (not a deb line!); ask me about <deb-src sid> 2) enable debian-backports (see <bdo>) 3) apt update; apt install build-essential; apt build-dep packagename 4) apt -b source packagename 5) dpkg -i packagename-ver.deb To change compilation options, see <package recompile>; for versions newer than sid see <uupdate>.
02:14<rojin>I wanted to know how packages are tested in general. Is there some kind of virtualisation tool for it.
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02:16<rojin>Because I didnt want to change anything on my debian stable system.
02:16<sney>you pretty much have to run a sid vm and look, and sid may or may not be functional at any given time (particularly this soon after a release)
02:17<sney>but you can install virt-manager and spin up a sid vm pretty quickly.
02:20<rojin>Thanks somiaj and sney. I will look to install virt-manager.
02:23<somiaj>rojin: what is your goal here, note that these packages will never make it into bullseye (well maybe someone will backport). But testing/unstable are the development branch and that is where packages are tested by various users
02:24<somiaj>some users run testing/unstable on their machines, others use vms, but it is the users of testing/unstable that test packages and report bugs
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02:25<rojin>The goal was to just test the package in experimental and see if the login form was working. (It is not working in the version in stable.)
02:26<crawler>for your information "testing/unstable" here is the name of debian branch for next release development
02:28<crawler>If the package you are interested in testing is nheko, then unfortunately it has the same version in bullseye, bookwork and sid
02:29<crawler>,v nheko
02:29<judd>Package: nheko on amd64 -- buster: 0.6.3-2; buster-backports: 0.7.2-1~bpo10+2; bullseye: 0.8.0+really0.7.2-4; bookworm: 0.8.0+really0.7.2-4+b1; sid: 0.8.0+really0.7.2-4+b1; experimental: 0.8.2-1
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02:30<rojin>So I understand that for package testing, I need to have a testing/unstable system(on a vm or on my machine).
02:30<crawler>yes
02:31<crawler>if you can do a dual-boot then use your machine, although I recommend VM
02:31<sney>yes, that's how debian developers do it
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02:32<rojin>So I was thinking if there is a tool to create a testing system to try new packages.
02:32<somiaj>rojin: and if login form did work would you want to then try to isntall it in stable?
02:33<somiaj>but yes you can create testing vms or sid vms once you get some vm software running
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02:33<somiaj>but if your end goal is if it works, add it to your stable system, maybe creating a stable vm and backport the package would be worthwhile int he end
02:33<rojin>No. I am thinking that it would work in the next point release.(or will it?)
02:33<somiaj>no
02:33<somiaj>debian releases dont' work that way, newer packages will not make it into stable
02:34<sney>if there's demand, it could be in bullseye-backports
02:34<sney>but not bullseye itself
02:34<crawler>somiaj if there is a bug in a package, it won't be fixed in the next point release?
02:34<somiaj>now if this is considered a server enough bug and a fix can be backported to the version in stable, there is a chance that will get in a point release, but this really depends on the bug and the possibel fix
02:34<somiaj>crawler: in most cases no, frozen release do have known bugs, but they stay that way, only certain ones that are both considered sever enough and can have a targeted fix backported are possible fixes
02:35<crawler>thanks
02:35<rojin>Thanks
02:35<sney>it also depends on if the fix is easy to backport and if the maintainer can do it without disrupting existing functionality
02:36<somiaj>but for software that doesn't have crazy interlinked depends, it isn't to hard to backport yourself
02:38<rojin>If I am right, that would only need me to build the package for backports.
02:39<rojin>Yeah, first it must be in testing.
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02:42<somiaj>yea, in this case I would suggest a stable vm and test building a backport and use it
02:43<somiaj>since that would fit your end goal better
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03:00<jm_>you can also install testing chroot with debootstrap or one of its replacements
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04:11<rojin>Thanks, jm_
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05:14<Guest64>Is it possible to install debian 11 through the command line. I ask because I want to install in a server and they dont have the template yet and told me to mount the iso
05:14<twb>Guest64: yes
05:15<twb>Guest64: the Installation Guide covers several methods in the Appendix
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05:15<Guest64>twb is there a tutorial?
05:15<twb>Guest64: beware this is for experts
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05:15<twb>Guest64: you might find it easier to take their existing debian 10 template and upgrade it
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05:16<Guest64>twb to 11? How?
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05:18<twb>Guest64: https://www.debian.org/releases/bullseye/amd64/release-notes.en.pdf#page=15
05:18<twb>the appendix I mentioned is here: https://www.debian.org/releases/stable/amd64/apds03.en.html
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05:25<mosasaur>seems this dist-upgrade is the one that forgot about python, making me have to look up all my scripts, in whatever obscure places, where they call python executables, and change "python" into "python3" or sometimes even "python2"
05:26<themill>if desperate, you can install the "python-is-python3" package... but you're better of fixing the sripts
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05:31<mosasaur>themill: ah, thanks for the idea! I guess I could now also create my own "python" executable that just pops up a tkinter window, informing me where exactly things went wrong, instead of silently failing :)
05:32<twb>mosasaur: if it has access to your X session
05:32<twb>mosasaur: that won't hold for random stuff in /usr/local/sbin
05:32<twb>>thinks< is Tk waylandized yet?
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06:17<FelixActually>What hidden folders in my home folder should I back up?
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06:31<maoma>FelixActually, why not backing up all your home folder? that would be easier for not missing any important one.
06:32<FelixActually>maoma: I don't want to waste backup space with things I don't need
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06:32<zeh>Could someone help me start the openvpn daemon?
06:33<zeh>config file is already set, but the service init tells the daemon exited with no apparent error
06:33<petn-randall>zeh: What part did you get stuck? IIRC it gets automatically started upon installation.
06:34*petn-randall jinx
06:37<zeh>petn-randall: I don't think it does, since the installation had not config file at /etc/openvpn
06:39<petn-randall>zeh: Did you get a service called "openvpn@configname"?
06:39<petn-randall>zeh: The openvpn service should always get started, even if there's no config.
06:40<zeh>petn-randall: no, only openvpn.service listed
06:40<jimpop>zeh, what's in your /etc/default/openvpn file. Look for AUTOSTART
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06:41<petn-randall>zeh: Ah, which OS release is this?
06:41<zeh>it is bullseye
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06:42<zeh>jimpop: it says AUTOSTART should default to all. I'll try to reload the systemd daemon like its saying there.
06:42<petn-randall>I have my openvpn server still on buster, so details might differ.
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06:47<zeh>petn-randall: do your /etc/openvpn has two directories, for client and server?
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06:51<jimpop>iirc, the sysvinit version of openvpn start (which uses /etc/default/openvpn) does not care about the client and server dirs in /etc/openvpn/
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06:52<jimpop>zeh, try putting your openvpn config file in /etc/openvpn/ and then try using systemd to restart openvpn
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06:59<zeh>ok, moving to /etc/openvpn the config service is being listed
06:59<zeh>but the daemon is still failing
07:02<jimpop>i don't know much about systemd, but does it report any error?
07:02<jimpop>usually there is a msg about journalctl, etc.
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07:06<zeh>ok, I can read the errors now, will try to fix
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07:14<petn-randall>zeh: Where did you find the errors? In the journal of "openvpn@configname"?
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07:16<zeh>jimpop: Seems to be working now, I had to move the config file to /etc/openvpn from /etc/openvpn/client for the @config.service to show
07:17<jimpop>nice
07:17<zeh>petn-randall: from the @configname status
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07:21<zeh>jimpop, petn-randall: thanks for the help.
07:21<jimpop>yw
07:22<jimpop>glad i was able to help
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08:06<petn-randall>zeh: Glad to hear you could fix the issue. You're welcome :)
08:07<jm_>zeh: it can be in /etc/openvpn/client, but you enable it like so https://wiki.debian.org/OpenVPN#VPN_connection_started_as_a_Systemd_service
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08:15<zeh>jm_: I was reading that for help, but missed the important bit, I should have used `enable` with the correct path before trying to start
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08:18<jm_>zeh: yeah, I have client/workvpn.conf and corresponding service is then openvpn-client@workvpn.service
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09:01<bongo>aye
09:04<bongo>I just wanted to say that debian 10 does operate very smoothly on my machine and that I'm very greatful to all of you folks who are users and developers. This has been great experience so far. I get a glitch here and there, but most of the time things are pretty solid.
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09:18<jm_>why debian 10 and not 11?
09:20<bongo>didn't know 11 was released already!
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09:20<bongo>gotta upgrade that babe then
09:20*stsquad ponders bullseye vs testing for doing Xen experiments on the raspi4
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09:38<PaddyF>oh no, digitalocean has no debian 11
09:38<PaddyF>choose 10 and upgrade then?
09:38<Habbie>yes
09:38<Habbie>and send them a message
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10:01<mosasaur>is there a way for iconv to handle the filesystem on an sdcard, like escaping forbidden characters
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10:24<tjcarter>https://thenib.com/this-comic-from-1919-imagines-what-it-s-like-to-have-a-phone-in-your-pocket/
10:24<tjcarter>whoops sorry, mispaste
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10:31<Sqrt{not}>mosasaur, can you even mount this SD card filesystem? Do you know how or where it was written?
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10:36<mosasaur>Sqrt{not}: yes, the sdcard works fine, it's on an android device though, so I mount it as a fuse filesystem, with jmtpfs. The problem is with characters in the names of saved files, e.g. from my web browser, that I want to copy over, but this fails when there are characters in it like '|'
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10:42<Tenkawa> touch \|\| ; ls -l \|\|
10:42<Tenkawa>-rw-r--r-- 1 na na 0 Sep 16 10:42 '||'
10:43<Tenkawa>you use escaping to handle those characters
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10:44<Tenkawa>if you ls -l can you pastebin the filename and I can help you format a cp string
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10:46<Habbie>your ls -l already formatted it correctly :)
10:47<mosasaur>Tenkawa: i was hoping to use convmvfs for this, but it internally uses iconv
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10:51<mosasaur>this seems related https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/343189/iconv-module-to-use-with-rsync-to-avoid-windows-illegal-filenames-in-local-ntf
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11:16<Sqrt{not}>mosasaur, if you are using rsync, you should be able to copy a full directory without converting the filenames within the directory.
11:17<mosasaur>Sqrt{not}: I'm not using rsync, I just cut and paste directories
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11:19<mosasaur>most files copy over just fine, it's just complaining about a few that have filename with special characters
11:19<Sqrt{not}>OK, I just saw your stackexchange reference to rsync.
11:19<mosasaur>I guess I could rename them first
11:19<Sqrt{not}>or use a tool that doesn't care
11:19<mosasaur>or maybe reformat the sdcard?
11:20<Sqrt{not}>why? those filename are not illegal in unix
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11:20<mosasaur>but it's some sdcard in an android device
11:21<mosasaur>I think you get them with some kind of msdos format originally
11:22<Sqrt{not}>did you see Tenkawa's example? linux can mount msdos file systems
11:22<Sqrt{not}>linux can mount ntfs filesystems.
11:23<Sqrt{not}>you already said you can mount it as a fuse filesystem
11:23<mosasaur>I think that's beside the problem I want to solve, I use a webbrowser on debian, the webbrowser saves the files with those chars in the filename
11:23<Tenkawa>moldorcoder7: you just need to escape \ the special characters to handle them
11:24<Tenkawa>in the cli
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11:24<Tenkawa>oops
11:24<Tenkawa>wrong person
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11:24<Tenkawa>mosasaur:
11:24<Sqrt{not}>mosasaur, I think you are solving a nonexistent problem
11:24<Tenkawa>mosasaur: what "problem" are you trying to solve?
11:25<mosasaur>Tenkawa: sure, I can use some regex script to rename the files, in fact I am already manually renaming them, but that gets boring, so I want to find an automated solution
11:26<Tenkawa>mosasaur: you won't realisticly find one.
11:26<Tenkawa>there's too much logic involved
11:27<Tenkawa>the overlap and collision potential makes it very error prone
11:27<Tenkawa>it would have to be very specialized
11:28<mosasaur>what if I reformat the sdcard, seems android just uses utf-8 like debian
11:28<Tenkawa>that's still going to create special characters
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11:33<mosasaur>I just took out the sdcard and put it in my laptop, it's definitely the sdcard causing the problem, the "disks" utility reports NTFS/exFAT/HPFS
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11:42<mosasaur>unfortunately, reformatting to something like ext4 is probably not possible for my version of android
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11:47<ach>!fat32
11:47<dpkg>modprobe vfat && mount -t vfat /dev/whatever /wherever . You cannot create a file larger than (2^32)-1 bytes (i.e. one byte less than 4 GB) on a FAT32 filesystem. See also <vfat>.
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11:49<tjcarter>mosasaur: I have android 9 and I can't just plug in an ext4 USB drive
11:52<jkc>mosasaur: "NTFS/exFAT/HPFS" is the partition type, not the filesystem.
11:54<mosasaur>tjcarter: my android is too old for that, but I just kind of 'solved' the problem by copying to internal storage instead of to the sdcard, which works fine
11:55<mosasaur>jkc: ah, thanks
11:55<tjcarter>mosasaur: I'm saying new android probably doesn't fix that problem
11:56<tjcarter>because ext4 has been supported since before Android exists. They don't support it by choice, not by technical limitation.
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11:56<mosasaur>tjcarter: oh, sorry, i misread
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11:58<johnjay>tjcarter: why doesn't android support ext4 by choice?
11:58<ach>i think law
11:58<ach>law and standard
11:58<jkc>Uh, no.
11:58<ach>ok
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11:59<jkc>ext4 IS a standard filesystem - one of the core standard filesystems - for Linux-based devices, and ext4 itself is GPL.
11:59<jkc>So there is precisely zero law or standard that would prevent Android from using it.
12:00<ach>y?
12:00<jkc>Why what?
12:00<ach>why it's not law and standard?
12:00<jkc>I just explained that.
12:00<tjcarter>johnjay: you're asking me why an evil faceless corporation does things stupidly … do you realize the impossibility of me answering that?
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12:01<johnjay>i guess...
12:01<ach>you need the windows users and...
12:01<FelixActually>If they're stupid, why can't we defeat them?
12:01<jkc>ach: Android devices aren't running windows. They're running Android. Why is Windows even being mentioned?
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12:02<ach>because you have to prgram that you could use linux aka ext4
12:02<ach>o
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12:02<jkc>Android is a Linux distribution running on ARM devices.
12:03<jkc>So, Windows doesn't factor into this equation. There is no reason that ext4 can't be supported, except "Because Google."
12:03<ach>good to know adoird has no is fully free out of industry
12:03<ach>-no
12:04<jkc>I have no idea what you just tried to say.
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12:05<ach>fat32 has gone port to all system till it maybe gone free and not bunch of work for be an idiot that can't get a solution to get less money for an os?
12:05<ach>do you understand?
12:06<jkc>No.
12:06<ach>idk keep watching develop,ment costs money
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12:07<ach>but any way idk why they choose as begin for their cards fat32?
12:07<jkc>ext4 already exists, in the Linux kernel, that Android is using. They had to go through effort to turn it OFF.
12:07<jkc>So... There is no development cost for ext4. There is no law preventing its use. It's open source. It's a standard filesystem. What are you not getting, here?
12:08<ansgar>jkc: ext4 isn't suiteable for removable media.
12:08<ach>idc
12:09<jkc>ansgar: Well, THAT is utter nonsense, but okay.
12:10<ach>!android
12:10<dpkg>Android is a Linux-based operating system for mobile devices. http://www.android.com/ #android on irc.libera.chat. For the related font family, ask me about <droid>. See also <adb> <lildebi> <mobile>.
12:10<ansgar>jkc: No, it's reality. Support for ID-mapped mounts and so in the Linux kernel is too new to be useful.
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12:15<Tenkawa>ext4 tuned properly is perfectly fine for removeable media
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12:18<FelixActually>What counts as removeable media?
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12:20<Tenkawa>FelixActually: usb, micro/sd, etc
12:20<Tenkawa>I run all of my machines this way
12:21<FelixActually>I have two external hard drives which have USB connectors and they both use ext4
12:21<Tenkawa>I mostly run xfs but a few are required to run ext4 because they use a special u-boot
12:21<FelixActually>I didn't do any "tuning", so did I make a mistake?
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12:22<Tenkawa>FelixActually: no.. I'm just saying that you can if you know how use different settings, etc to get even more performance
12:22<Tenkawa>you must know your workload/usage type though to do it
12:22<FelixActually>It performs well enough for me at least
12:22<Tenkawa>and the commands of course
12:23<Tenkawa>then thats all that matters :)
12:23<FelixActually>Okay, great
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12:50<yogiman>Hi! Anyone enlighten me problem I am having with repo's, Debian 11. Initially had issues with "0% [Connecting to debian.map.fastlydns.net (151.101.18.132)]" "W: Failed to fetch http://deb.debian.org/debian/dists/bullseye/InRelease Could not connect to debian.map.fastlydns.net:80 (151.101.18.132), connection timed out Unable to connect to deb.debian.org:http: W: Failed to fetch http://deb.debian.org/debian/dists/bullseye-updates/InRelease
12:50<yogiman>Unable to connect to deb.debian.org:http: "this cleared up, however a few days ago the problem returned again. Have tried changing the repo's but having same issue.
12:52<sney>if it happened with other mirrors, the problem is likely with your internet connection
12:52<somiaj>yogiman: could it be local network issues?
12:52<somiaj>fwiw deb.debian.org is working just fine here, and I think it does a health check before sending someone to the correspodnign mirror on the CDN
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12:53<sney>some ISPs cause it to misbehave though, we've seen a few people who had better results with ftp.us.debian.org or the equivalent for their country
12:53<yogiman>somiaj, I don't think so, everything else seems to be working fine this just turned up when I moved from Deb 10 to 11 and just keeps showing up.
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12:54<somiaj>I guess I could see an ISP getting in the way of a CDN
12:55<yogiman>well never had an issue previously with same ISP for years. Have noticed when trying to change the repo's in software and updates that it will often get stuck and not finish doing the change over.
12:55<somiaj>what do you mean by change the repo's in software?
12:56<somiaj>Most would just update their sources.list file, though are you using some tool to do this?
12:57<yogiman>somiaj, when problem appeared I attempted to change the repo's in software & updates. It freaked out, fortunately I had a copy of my sources.list so was able to restore it
12:57<somiaj>I don't know what you mean by change the repo's in software, that makes no sense to me
12:57<Sqrt{not}>!bullseye sources.list
12:57<dpkg>A suitable /etc/apt/sources.list for "Bullseye" has three lines: "deb https://deb.debian.org/debian bullseye main" "deb https://deb.debian.org/debian-security bullseye-security main" "deb https://deb.debian.org/debian bullseye-updates main". See <deb-src> <contrib> <non-free> <bullseye-updates> and `man sources.list`.
12:58<Sqrt{not}>yogiman, pay attention especially to the security line
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12:58<Sqrt{not}>somiaj, he means in some gui "software + updates" application
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12:59<yogiman>Sqrt{not}, yes it's in Gnome desktop, normally I would have just edited the sources.list but I was busy
12:59<jmcnaught>,i software-properties-gtk
12:59<judd>Package software-properties-gtk (admin, optional) in bullseye/amd64: manage the repositories that you install software from (gtk). Version: 0.96.20.2-2.1; Size: 77.8k; Installed: 365k; Screenshot: https://screenshots.debian.net/package/software-properties-gtk
12:59<somiaj>ahh maybe I need to get more familar with these guis and systemd's new packaged software for such things.
12:59<yogiman>my sec lines are
12:59<yogiman>deb http://security.debian.org/debian-security bullseye-security main contrib non-free
12:59<yogiman>deb-src http://security.debian.org/debian-security bullseye-security main contrib non-free
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13:00<yogiman>but the problem was there before I used the software and updates tool so it's not that.
13:02<Sqrt{not}>yogiman, I think you should change those lines to be like what the robot told you
13:03<yogiman>ok will give it a go thanks for the input folks :)
13:03<Sqrt{not}>you can leave in the contrib non-free, but change the URL part
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13:15<Sqrt{not}>mosasaur, what I was trying to say (before all the distraction) is that those odd special characters are not illegal in linux filenames. With smart tools (e.g. rsync) if you copy the directory containing those files from the SD card to wherever, the files should be copied just as they are, inside the directory, with no need for any renaming.
13:16<Sqrt{not}>i.e. copy the directory as a directory, without trying to list each file you want to copy
13:17<Guest6877>why is it seemingly not possible to see a package contents if its architecture is all?
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13:19<Guest6877>e.g. https://packages.debian.org/bullseye/all/vim-doc/filelist
13:20<another>https://bugs.debian.org/977006
13:20<judd>Bug https://bugs.debian.org/977006 in www.debian.org (closed, patch): «packages.debian.org: filelist is currently broken for some packages»; severity: important; opened: 2020-12-09; last modified: 2021-08-23.
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13:21<Guest6877>hah
13:21<mosasaur>Sqrt{not}: I appreciate the clarification, but those filenames aren't even illegal in android, it's just impossible to have them on an exfat sdcard. It seems to me your trying to solve the reverse problem e.g. moving them *from* the sdcard to somewhere else
13:22<another>apparently it's not in production, yet
13:22<Guest6877>seems to have been that wy for a while
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13:24<sney>you may want to reply to that bug and point out that the issue is still present. website builds happen multiple times per day, so if that fix was pushed to master 3 weeks ago, it's definitely in production
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13:26<sney>or join #debian-www and mention it there
13:27<Guest6877>done
13:28<sney>it's not the most active channel but someone will see it
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13:28<Guest6877>indeed
13:28<Guest6877>thanks
13:28<sney>np
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13:32<djb>hello everyone, how can i get a light debian to use as ftp server ? and what daemon do you suggest ?
13:33<bremner>real ftp, in 2021?
13:34<sney>ftp is obsolete, but if you *need* it, probably vsftpd
13:34<bremner>just do a minimal install, add what you need
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13:34<djb>yes it seems that i "need" it. i have some dataloggers to collect csv.
13:35<djb>is there any option for visual interface, ? im not so familiar with linux
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13:36<sney>I don't think there are any ftp daemons in debian that allow graphical configuration
13:36<sney>of course from the installer you can install a small desktop environment, like lxqt, but you would still need to use the terminal and text editors to admin your ftp server
13:36<djb>good, thanks everyone. Is user isolation doable ? chroot ?
13:37<jkc>Yes. That's a typical use case for ftp.
13:37<jkc>And in the case of vsftpd, there's a setting explicitly to do that.
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13:39<djb>oh great... so i don't need the desktop environment for debian , is it ok to enable SSH, allow port 22 and remote SSH in the machine ?
13:39<sney>yes
13:39<sney>if your system is on the public internet, you might want to install fail2ban, and/or use a different port for ssh, otherwise you will have botnets trying to break in
13:39<sney>usually the botnets will fail, but it still uses some cpu every time they try :)
13:41<djb>great. can't thank you enough. i saw that vsftp support passive mode, so i will forward a random port for FTP + passive ports. Will be on public IP
13:44<omegatron>it would be helpful, if the note "... this package is buggy ..." on a package's page (such as https://packages.debian.org/bullseye/mcrypt ) references reports or similar to "prove it", so it doesn't look like some personal opinion by the author of this text. ( being unmaintained doesn't necessarily mean, a software is buggy )
13:45<jkc>djb: For passive mode, you basically need an open firewall.
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13:46<jkc>djb: And changing the default SSH port does precisely squat for security.
13:46<jkc>It can reduce the volume of log entries, if you care, but that's about it.
13:48<djb>@jkc thank you, there is a range for passive ports in the vsftpd documentation. so those ports i will forward to the debian machine. for example 51000-52000
13:49<jkc>You're not "forwarding."
13:49<jkc>The machine is sitting on the internet directly, not behind a NAT device.
13:49<jkc>You said it had a public IP, so that's what I'm assuming, at least.
13:50<mooff>jkc: that isn't true
13:50<djb>jkc: the truth is that i have both options, didn't think about it yet. probably i will put a router/firewall in front
13:50<mooff>re the default port
13:50<jkc>mooff: It absolutely is true.
13:51<jkc>I truly wish that people would stop spreading around the "change the ssh port" BS as if it's a useful security measure.
13:51<mooff>imagine you *have* to run wordpress. there is a new critical CVE found in wp-admin.php
13:51<jkc>It is not. If you think it is, then you have a very poor grasp of information security fundamentals.
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13:51<jkc>mooff: Imagine whatever you like. Changing ports is not a security measure.
13:52<jkc>END OF DISCUSSION.
13:52<mooff>given that each public web server will receive multiple requests per day to /wp-admin.php even if they're *not* running wordpress..
13:52<jkc>Never has, never will be.
13:52<mooff>you are much more vulnerable to wide sprays of attacks for new CVEs, unknown CVEs, etc
13:52<mooff>port scanning every port on every IP on the internet remains difficult
13:53<mooff>visiting every port 22 or port 80 is not
13:53<djb>is not a security measure, but is reduction of attack surface. i agree with both of you.
13:54<jkc>djb: No, it isn't. An open port to sshd is an open port to sshd. The number associated with it is immaterial.
13:54<jkc>Let's say it again for the people in the back: Changing port numbers is not a security measure.
13:54<mooff>security comes in layers
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13:55<jkc>Reducing the number of open ports by constraining the PASV port range in vsftpd? That's a reduction in attack surface because you're reducing the number of available ports usable by unauthorized processes.
13:55<jkc>Changing sshd's listening port? Not a reduction in attack surface.
13:56<mooff>jkc: i followed that philosophy for years, i don't think it's bad
13:56<jkc>Once more, for those following along at home: changing port numbers is not a security measure.
13:56<mooff>but materially .. i changed from port 22 to another much higher port
13:57<Guest6877>security through obscurity :[
13:57<mooff>i was getting 100 login attempts per hour on 22
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13:57<jkc>Which ain't security at all.
13:57<mooff>i haven't had a single login attempt on the other port in the ~week since.
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13:57<mooff>that's a dramatic difference for wide-area spray attacks
13:57<mooff>and an important defense in case of new sshd vulns found
13:58<jkc>Before we get the "defense in depth!" crowd chiming in, defense in depth means applying layered security controls that actually do something useful. Changing port numbers does nothing useful. Therefore it's also meaningless in a defense in depth conversion.
13:58<mooff>jkc: don't you agree that the above data suggests it is useful?
13:58<Guest6877>security usually means provably secure to those in cybersec
13:59<jkc>Not really.
13:59<Guest6877>backed by maths?
13:59<jkc>For crypto, maybe.
13:59<Guest6877>true
13:59<jkc>That doesn't really apply to information security as a broader discipline.
13:59<mooff>maths: ~100 per hour vs ~0 per week
14:00<Guest6877>mooff… nmap would make short work of your obfuscation :)
14:00<mooff>naturally.. if you targeted my IP especially
14:00<mooff>100 people per hour clearly aren't doing that
14:00<weyland>is it ok to have stable and oldstable in your sources.list? i really only need 1 package from oldstable though so maybe their is a better way?
14:00<jkc>In this conversation, Shannon's Maxim might be the most applicable concept. "The enemy knows the system." In other words, the security of a system should not rely, to even the smallest degree, on implementation details of the system. That would include port numbers.
14:00<jkc>weyland: It is never a good idea to mix releases in a sources.list file.
14:01<Guest6877>orphaned package
14:01<jkc>Refining: The security of a system should not rely, to even the smallest degree, on implementation details of the system remaining secret. That would include port numbers.
14:01<mooff>jkc: your security there relies on correct implementation of the ssh server, which is probably written in a proven dangerous, memory unsafe language
14:02<mooff>mine relies on that, plus the decreased tractability of scanning every port on every IP in a range for a spray attack
14:02<jkc>Guest6877: Still not a good idea. There are many means available to rebuild a package from a source package for a newer release.
14:02<Guest6877>yeah
14:02<weyland>jkc: i thought only bad if you mix testing or unstable with stable how can i just grab the deb?
14:03<jkc>weyland: Any debian package mirror would have those available.
14:03<jkc>Just download the .deb and dpkg -i.
14:03<Guest6877>actually i want to build an old package 100% statically but there are too many dependencies
14:04<jkc>Ahhh.
14:04<djb>why debian says: Started OpenBSD Secure Shell server ?
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14:04<jkc>djb: Because that's sshd.
14:05<Guest6877>there are other ssh server implementations :D like dropbear
14:06<jkc>Sure. And that's not what's running. :D
14:06<djb>sudo ufw allow 22 ?
14:06<jkc>djb: That would do it, yes.
14:06<weyland>also it looks like this package is "depreacated" in sid. it is still safe to use from oldstable right?
14:06<alex11>speaking of ufw - i think there's a GUI frontend for it, does anyone recall the package for it?
14:07<djb>i start to like this OS, i was stuck on windows for years
14:07<jmcnaught>alex11: gufw?
14:07<alex11>that's probably it
14:07<Guest6877>gufw
14:08<djb>sudo apt install gufw ?
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14:21<paulapostle>graphical ufw if verynewbie friendly yet poweful
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14:23<monk888>anyone has installed debian 11 to boot on SAN?
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14:26<Sqrt{not}>mosasaur, OK, I thought you were asking a question about debian support for these file systems and file names. I don't know how to answer your android questions.
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14:27<Sqrt{not}>mosasaur, I do know that you can make unix file systems on SD cards, I've done it myself. But again, I don't know which of those android might like.
14:29<mosasaur>Sqrt{not}: turns out it wasn't about android, but about sdcards with exfat partition. Anyway, theoretically it still seems possible to mangle filenames both ways using some weird iconv system, though it probably would become very hairy
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14:33<Sqrt{not}>mosasaur, if it was me, I'd look for a way to do the transfer without any mangline.
14:33<Sqrt{not}>mangling, even
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14:35<mosasaur>that's what convmvfs seems to be doing though, except the back and forth conversions are easier
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14:38<mosasaur>anyway, the problem is only with exfat sdcards, androids internal memory can easily handle those filenames, which is what I've decided to do
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14:43<mosasaur>https://github.com/knu/fuse-convmvfs/blob/master/fuse-convmvfs/README
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14:49<mosasaur>err. I mean that's what fuse-convmfs does, but I decided not to go that way
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15:09<mosasaur>hm. Thinking about it some more, just handling a few characters that exfat can't handle, but ext4 can, is probably a bit simpler than translating everything to a Chinese charset and back? If so, fuse-convmvfs could probably handle exfat partitions with ease, if there was the will to implement it.
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15:11<bremner>seems a bit hypothetical, and not likely to solve problem any time soon.
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15:36<sussudio>clive sinclair died.
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15:36<tjcarter>RIP crazy cheap computer inventor man
15:37<tjcarter>the ZX machines were truly life-changing for an entire generation in the UK
15:37<sussudio>his zx81 was an unstable piece of garbage.
15:38<tjcarter>I didn't say they were a bug-free experience, I said they were life-changing.
15:38<sney>if you want to create a generation of engineers, give them some technology that sucks :)
15:38<tjcarter>that 😆
15:38<sarnold>or better yet, is juuuust close to being good
15:38<sussudio>i tried to type on one, and it reset and shit like that.
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15:38<sarnold>oh that sucks :(
15:38<sarnold>the timex sinclair that we had was amazing fun
15:39<sussudio>i had a c64 at the time. the downside on that, is that the power block was as hot as lava and could give you third degree burnmarks or actually set you on fire.
15:39<sussudio>they made it bigger in later revisions, with better cooling ability.
15:41<sarnold>the c64 we bought later was much nicer all around :)
15:42<tjcarter>If the ZX line had better keyboards and a different form factor … let's face it they'd cost twice as much, but they'd have been universally adored.
15:42<sarnold>yeah those keyboards were kinda janky. cheap though :)
15:43<tjcarter>possibly more than twice as much, depending on how the keyboards were made
15:43<tjcarter>sarnold: the Model M's keyboard uses the same technology.
15:43<sussudio>only the very first generation of cassette drives that came with the vic20 were stable
15:43<sarnold>tjcarter: lol really? the model m was so much vastly better..
15:43<tjcarter>sarnold: still a membrane
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15:44<tjcarter>sarnold: the difference is the membrane is squished together not by your finger (ZX-81) or a rubbery gummy remote button (ZX Spectrum) or foam whatever (later), but by the buckling spring mechanism
15:45<tjcarter>still a membrane underneath.
15:46<sarnold>tjcarter: oh wild. I never really thought about how those buckling springs *worked*
15:46<sarnold>they just felt so good :)
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15:46<tjcarter>they did. Today I'd like that membrane sheet to have a bunch of diodes added to it. Do that and yes please sign me up
15:46<tjcarter>NKRO is more important to me than the buckling springs.
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15:50<tjcarter>I use Kaihua Kailh BOX white switches … but I really can't say I like them. They feel okay (they're a little light), but I find their lifespan has been poor.
15:50<tjcarter>they start ghosting after awhile
15:52<tjcarter>All switches bounce, but keyboards should have some debounce circuitry. This is heavy enough that debounce in the keyboard controller isn't enough, and I have had trouble making QMK behave better.
15:53<tjcarter>(I'm also of the opinion that QMK, in order to work with all keyboards, is way overly complex for the task, even for a pretty featureful keyboard with all the blinkenlights … but that's another problem.)
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18:53<FelixActually>What does the "STOP" terminal signal do exactly?
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18:56<Hash>FelixActually: PAUSE essentially
18:56<FelixActually>So can I use it to pause an ffmpeg process and hibernate my computer?
18:56<Hash>For example, when you do ctrl+z to background something, you send the SIGSTOP
18:56<FelixActually>Or will it not resume properly?
18:57<Hash>'properly'?
18:57<sarnold>depending upon what the process was doing, it might not be able to cont
18:58<FelixActually>I'm converting an mp4 file to webm
18:58<Hash>Is there a need to stop this process?
18:58<FelixActually>I don't want to leave my computer on all night doing this
18:59<FelixActually>It's one hour into a three hour video
18:59<Hash>If it is a long running process. Video transcoding takes time.
18:59<Hash>If it is a long running process, it will need to remain until it's finished.
19:00<Hash>I'm not sure if video can be resumed, I'm sure it can but you'd have to find out the time index it stopped, cut using ffmpeg, and reinsert etc. it's a whole hassle
19:00<sarnold>it's possible suspending the computer as a whole would just work
19:01<sarnold>if it doesn't, it'd be worth a bug report :) but I'm not sure to whom, hehe
19:02<FelixActually>I could probably leave the computer on since it's not that loud, but I have this silly fear that it'll catch fire while I'm asleep
19:02<crawler>or make shutdown timer
19:02<Hash>You might even spontaneously combust.
19:02<Hash>No one knows.
19:02<Hash>Let it do its thing. Tring to solve non problems creates more problems.
19:03<Guest6877>let's hope the transcode doesnt call hcf :D
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20:36<A|an>I have a USB that is paritioned for persistence: first partition is 3 GB for an iso-hybrid, the resest of the drive is a "persistent" partition. I'd like to install a more recent old-stable debian 10. To dd the new iso to the usb, will it treat the persistent partition like "home" and simply overwrite onto /dev/sde1 and NOT touch my persistent parition, /dev/sde3?
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20:40<dvs>A|an: dd'ing the iso will overwrite the entire drive
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20:40<Sqrt{not}>A|an, make a note of where your partition 3 starts, what sector number. When you dd the new image, it will overwrite the first part of the drive and the partition table, but WILL NOT overwrite your partition 3
20:40<A|an>I've forgotten how I initially set this thing up...
20:41<Sqrt{not}>I've done this many times. After you dd the new contents to the start of the USB, there will be a new partition table there. Use fdisk to re-add your data partition, starting at the sector number you wrote down. the data will be untouched
20:42<Sqrt{not}>The only problem will be if the new image is so long, that it extends into the old partition 3.
20:42<A|an><qrt{not}: It shouldn't be too long...shorter, in fact
20:42<Sqrt{not}>you can look at the current drive layout with: fdisk -l
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20:43<Sqrt{not}>I usually start my extra data partition at sector 100,000,000 just because that is easy to remember
20:43<A|an><qrt{not}: Let me get this straight. Simply dd the image onto the USB, the use fdisk and recreate the 3rd parition, using the partition numbers from the original. Correct?
20:44<Sqrt{not}>yes, that works OK, assuming the new image is not so long it would extend into that partition
20:45<A|an>Better back up. I think I might just do what you do, choose an exact data sector.
20:45<Sqrt{not}>probably your new image is less than the 3GB you reported above, but check to be sure.
20:45<Sqrt{not}>you can see what it is now, and write it down.
20:46<A|an>The new iso uses a smaller desktop, xfce...and it is listed as smaller, GB-wise
20:47<Sqrt{not}>yes, you can just `ls -l` the new .iso image, or see what length is reported wherever you downloaded it from
20:48<Sqrt{not}>be sure you dd onto the raw device like "/dev/sde" not onto a partition like "/dev/sde1"
20:49<A|an>okay, thx a lot
20:51<A|an>(this is why you should always set up a generous 1st partition)
20:51<aloo_shu>parted can even look for 'lost' partitions for you, man is your friend
20:53<Sqrt{not}>dvs, the dd will replace the original MBR partition table, which can make it look like the whole drive is gone, but dd copies only as many bytes as in the source "file", so the actual contents of the extra partition will not actually be physically overwritted, if it is far enough out in the extra space after the .iso
20:53<A|an>will pasting 3 lines constitute a flood?
20:54<sarnold>probably not
20:54<A|an>I have an EFI, not a MBR
20:54<sarnold>but if they're long, they might still be easier to read in a pastebin site
20:55<Sqrt{not}>A|an, the debian .iso images are hybrid, will boot in either EFI or MBR mode.
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20:57<Sqrt{not}>I know you can add your extra partition into the MBR partition table included in the .iso --- I don't know if you can fiddle the GPT equivalent
20:57<A|an>https://i.imgur.com/H1zg9KJ.png
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20:58<A|an>Okay, great...hasn't MBR gone the way side?
20:58<Sqrt{not}>A|an, what you are showing there is the MBR partition table in the .iso, with your added data partition
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21:00<A|an>I thought /dev/sde2 was EFI, therefore not MBR
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21:00<A|an>I'm kinda sketchy on this, needless to say lol
21:00<Sqrt{not}>that partition is an EFI type partition, but you are showing it from an MBR partition _table_
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21:00<A|an>ok
21:01<Sqrt{not}>that .iso trickery just allows the .iso to be booted on either type of OS boot setup.
21:01<A|an>ahhh...i see
21:01<A|an>good thinkin'
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21:01<Sqrt{not}>notice that that EFI partition is actually in the middle of partition 1
21:02<A|an>yep
21:02<Sqrt{not}>The CD folks went to lots of trouble to keep this magic working in as many cases as possible
21:02<A|an>well, i'm all far that
21:02<Sqrt{not}>heh, for example the same image will work on a physical optical CD, or on your USB
21:02<A|an>for
21:02<A|an>that is
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21:03<A|an>yeah, it's described as a CD image
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21:04<A|an>alright, thx again
21:05<Sqrt{not}>np. good luck, and be careful with any dd
21:05<Sqrt{not}>oh, and don't forget to sync after the dd
21:06<A|an>you mean "disk destroyer"??
21:06<A|an>yes, always do
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21:20<jkc>Are we talking about writing an image to a usb stick or something?
21:20<Sqrt{not}>correcto
21:20<jkc>Then skip dd.
21:20<jkc>cp file.iso /dev/sdx
21:20<Sqrt{not}>sure, that works too
21:21<aloo_shu>something
21:21<jkc>That should be first recommendation.
21:21<somiaj>but dd has more neard creed
21:21<dvs>1337
21:21<jmcnaught>pv debian.iso > /dev/sdx
21:22<sarnold>jkc: I wasn't paying a whole lot of attention but I think in this case there were other partitions on the thing that were desired to be preserved
21:22<Sqrt{not}>the question that was asked was about dd, so we stayed in that mode, which is fine
21:22<aloo_shu>dd understands SIGUSR1, cp does not
21:22<jkc>Sqrt{not}: Just because someone asks about dd doesn't mean dd is the right tool.
21:22<Sqrt{not}>I think either dd or cp would preserve the extra partition
21:23<Sqrt{not}>jkc it is also not the wrong tool
21:23<aloo_shu>just because somebody says 'skip dd' doesn't mean he's got the ultimate clue
21:24<jkc>Sqrt{not}: It is "a tool that works." You can drive a nail with a brick.
21:24<jkc>imho, two tools that work, but one is simpler, the simpler tool is the better tool. Don't introduce complexity where it's not needed.
21:24<jmcnaught>What are the negative consequences of using dd?
21:25<Sqrt{not}>if the questioner is familiar with one tool, why should we confuse the issue and insist on something else? KISS
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21:26<Sqrt{not}>have you heard about "there is more than one right way to do it"?
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21:26<aloo_shu>making support great again
21:27<jkc>The perpetuation of cargo cult behaviors, for one.
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21:27<Sqrt{not}>I don't have any religious preference for one tool or the other, so I would not push it. YMMV
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21:28<sarnold>I wonder if cp runs an fdatasync or fsync on the output file before returning
21:28<sarnold>I've always thought dd should make you ask for skipping the fdatasync at the end, rather than having you ask for it
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21:33<Sqrt{not}>jkc, also, for checking the .iso image on the USB, reading it back into sha512sum or something, dd is handy because you can tell it how many bytes to copy
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21:34<Sqrt{not}>I think that is harder to do with 'cp'
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21:40<A|an>Sqrt{not}: Success! I'm gonna do this lots, now lol
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21:40<Sqrt{not}>A|an, OK, good job. thanks for letting us know it worked OK
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21:41<A|an>thx for advice
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22:49<A|an>o install packages in a Live USB environment, is it better to use DEB files or tar-zips?
22:49<A|an>To install packages in a Live USB environment, is it better to use DEB files or tar-zips?
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22:57<Sqrt{not}>A|an, I would use a .deb if possible, but either should be OK. The live environment is reset to square one every time you reboot into it. (I put some script tricks in my persistent partition, for example to avoid re-downloading things again and again)
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23:04<r4fkramer>Hi all, please, I'd like to know if all of these parameters are related to security in Debian, or if there are exceptions: https://paste.debian.net/1212066/
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23:06<A|an>Sqrt{not}: I'm thinking of populating a folder with useful packages, to be installed each time this rescue USB is used. How do you get your hands on a DEB package without installing it, then tracking it down in your filesystem?
23:09<blast007>A|an: it is possible to build your own custom live DVD ISO that would include additional packages from Debian and/or extra files. https://live-team.pages.debian.net/live-manual/html/live-manual/index.en.html
23:10<Sqrt{not}>one of my scripts symlinks /var/cache/apt/archives/ in the live system to a directory in the persistent storage. Then the first time I install something, it gets downloaded and installed. Later installs find the .deb file already in the archive, and just install without downloading
23:10<A|an>yes, in hindsight I should've done that, but....I'm kinda down the road at this point
23:11<Sqrt{not}>(assuming the same version next time. if a new version exists, it will get downloaded )
23:11<A|an>cool
23:11<A|an>That's the solution, sounds like
23:12<Sqrt{not}>It's not from the "official" persistence ideas, but it works
23:12<A|an>I was (you know, worst case scenario) thinking of no internet connection available, but still have essential packages at hand
23:13<A|an>Sounds like a good idea
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23:15<Sqrt{not}>yeah, I tend to want the same few basic things almost every time I use a live system, and like you say, you might now always have the network
23:16<Sqrt{not}>might *not*
23:17<A|an>Is it the case that one can't get a .deb package without using apt?
23:17<A|an>Are they not available, somehow, to just grab?
23:18<Sqrt{not}>(actually that script might bind-mount the replacement directory instead of symlink, I don't remember right now)
23:18<blast007>https://www.debian.org/distrib/packages
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23:18<Sqrt{not}>^^^^^ yes, you can download them
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23:19<Sqrt{not}>also `apt-get download`
23:19<A|an>blast007: i'd forgotten about that (I used to pick through that, way back when) thx
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23:19<A|an>ah! really
23:20<A|an>I didn't realize apt-get had that option
23:20<A|an>that's the solution
23:20<ts>hello
23:20<Sqrt{not}>and then dpkg -i ./something.deb
23:21<Sqrt{not}>hi ts welcome
23:21<blast007>I think you can also do apt install ./something.deb
23:22<A|an>Sqrt{not: That's the answer to my question. Thx!
23:22<ts>Unable to open linuxqq
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23:25<Sqrt{not}>ts, what is linuxqq? and what did you do to try to open it?
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23:29<somiaj>blast007: yes, a nifty feature not many use
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23:32<ts>linuxqq is a Chinese app,After scanning codes for login, the system blinks
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---Logclosed Fri Sep 17 00:00:11 2021