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#debian IRC Logs for 2021-09-28

---Logopened Tue Sep 28 00:00:57 2021
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01:39<twb>"apt install --no-install-recommends libreoffice" gives me lobase, but it fails to use its embedded driver: http://ix.io/3Acn
01:39<twb>libreoffice-base-drivers is installed, so why is that happening?
01:39<twb>Ah it seems it needs libreoffice-sdbc-hsqldb
01:40<twb>And that pulls in java
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01:42<twb>So yeah not really *useful* to install lobase on a "java is banned" system
01:42<twb>(Same as before, just not immediately obvious from the hard Depends)
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01:53<somiaj>recommended depends should be fairly strong, as things will not work without them
01:53<twb>Yeah it's cool
01:53<somiaj>though I don't know if you can do libreoffice without java, might have to go some other office route
01:53<twb>For a long time I've been cherry-picking libreoffice
01:53<somiaj>what about abiword or stuff like that?
01:53<twb>Since I'm doing a debian 9 -> 11 upgrade, I was looking at "do I still need to?"
01:54<twb>somiaj: apart from base, libreoffice works perfectly without java
01:54<somiaj>ahh you can do libreoffice without java? I tought it was more integrated than that.
01:54<twb>apt install libreoffice-writer # done!
01:54<twb>somiaj: libreoffice is 100% C++ except for the JDBC database middleware
01:54<somiaj>though I guess I only use calc, I should maybe not worry about having everything else installed (I use writer rarely, just to read a doc when google docs fails
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02:25<r_>is it possible to get some help about intaller failing
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02:28-!-mode/#debian [+l 962] by debhelper
02:28<FelixActually>What font is used in the current Debian logo?
02:28<obrazina>hello respective community!
02:29<obrazina>i don't know what to do with bugs:-(
02:30<obrazina>https://imgur.com/a/VpgF8py
02:30<obrazina>it nerves
02:31<obrazina>my neurons is not steel roaps
02:32<obrazina>ropes, sorry for dirty english
02:32<obrazina>could you suggest something to do?
02:33<obrazina>stockfish is buggy or mt-progammer is silly bugger?
02:34<obrazina>i have 2 real and 4 virtual cors
02:34<obrazina>cores
02:34<obrazina>i set use 4 threads for playing
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02:35<obrazina>i have full game in pgn
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02:36<obrazina>if someone interests in what is going on!
02:36<obrazina>wot times
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02:38<somiaj>!enter
02:38<dpkg>The enter key is not a substitute for punctuation. Hitting enter unnecessarily makes it difficult to follow what you are saying. Consider using ',', '. ', ';', '...', '---', or ':' instead. If you hit enter too often, you will be autokicked for flooding the channel.
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02:39<twb>obrazina: I thought it was here: https://www.debian.org/trademark.en.html but it isn't
02:39<obrazina>somiaj thanks for teaching but it does not resolve case!
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02:42<obrazina>twb, i hate rules it is not my case, i love science!
02:42<r_>Can someone tell me the way to get help on install failure
02:42<somiaj>!bat
02:42<dpkg>[Basic Apt* Troubleshooting]. To diagnose your problem, we need ALL OF THE FOLLOWING information: 1. complete output of your apt-get/apt/aptitude run (including the command used) 2. output from "apt-cache policy pkg1 pkg2..." for ALL packages mentioned ANYWHERE in the problem, and 3. "apt-cache policy". Use https://paste.debian.net/ to provide us with this information. Also ask me about <localized errors>.
02:43<r_>dpkg, are you talking to me ?
02:43<dpkg>r_: bugger all, i dunno
02:43<FelixActually>dpkg is a bot
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02:43<dpkg>Lies! I'm totally not a bot.
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02:43<somiaj>r_: provide us some detailed output, such as that factoid mentioned to help debug install failures from apt
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02:45<obrazina>got thought, force poweroff but love to live=)
02:46<FelixActually>obrazina: What is the problem you have?
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02:48<themill>!debian logo font
02:48<dpkg>The Debian logo's font is Poppl Laudation Condensed by Friedrich Poppl (http://www.identifont.com/show?U5). Note that the "i" has been changed and the text has been condensed horizontally and stretched vertically. There are free fonts that are almost the same (see http://wiki.debian.org/DebianLogo) and the Debian text is included in the vector images as an outline at http://www.debian.org/logos.
02:48<themill>FelixActually: ^^
02:48<obrazina>FelixActually, https://imgur.com/a/VpgF8py
02:48<FelixActually>themill: Thanks
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02:49<FelixActually>obrazina: I won't use imgur, so you'll have to describe the issue, not try to show an image
02:49<r_>somiaj it is not an apt failure but firmware-11.0.0-amd64-netinst.iso which failed during downloading files ; I had to power off and now no DHCP configuration is possible
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02:49<obrazina>FelixActually, no and not!
02:49<FelixActually>What?
02:50<obrazina>you must see it!
02:50<somiaj>that image doesn't help, obrazina needs to state their actual issue
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02:50<somiaj>r_: so the installer is no longer working even if you start over from the start?
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02:51<r_>somiaj :yes and thank you
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02:51<somiaj>r_: that is odd, how did you copy the installer to a usb drive?
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02:52<obrazina>somiaj https://www.upload.ee/files/13506876/Stockfish_14-z.pgn.html
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02:54<obrazina>but it is wrong channel imho, here is noone develop stockfish...so bye
02:56<somiaj>r_: please keep messages in the channel. That still seems odd to me that dhcp would work the first time you used the image, but not the second. Could there be some issue with your network?
02:56<r_>somiaj : I used win32diskmanager. But the problem is that the mirror stopped in the middle of installation and I had to power off ; when power on to start again, no DHCP
02:57<somiaj>to me it is more likely your network is having issues than the mirror stoped, and that would also explain why dhcp no longer is working
02:57<somiaj>My guess is your network is having issues with that machine.
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02:59<r_>somiaj 2 previous installation failed but the DHCP always worked ; I think that power off when mirror stopped to send files did something to DHCP and I don't know how to fix it
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03:00<somiaj>were those two previous fails all on this same machine?
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03:00<somiaj>I'm assuming other machines on the network work juts fine?
03:01<somiaj>I highly doubt mirrors will just stop, it is possible but the mirrors are fairly well supported and most likely wouldn't just stop like you describe.
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03:02<r_>somiaj the machine is alone and new ; the 2 previous fails were on this machine ; the failure was when reboot, that led to black screen
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03:02<somiaj>I suspect those were failures, but something you could fix by making sure you have the correct drivers/firmware for your gpu.
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03:03<somiaj>Though since there should be no reason the image has been altered any way during this, the culprit sounds more like network issue vs an installer issue. Though if you want, you can run a checksum on the .iso and recopy it to the usb with win32diskmanager
03:03<somiaj>but what you describe doesn't sound like it is an issue with the installer to me
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03:04<r_>somiaj the support told me the problem was there so it told me to use the firmware-11.0.0-amd64-netinst.iso
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03:05<somiaj>Yes, the firmware image should help with what you described, were the previous two failurs with the non-firmware installer?
03:05<r_>somiaj yes
03:06<somiaj>and then the firmware installer worked with dhcp, during the install the mirror stopped sending data, and now you can't dhcp...totally sounds like a network issue on your end, and not the mirror or the installer
03:06<somiaj>is this wired or wifi?
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03:07<r_>somiaj I do not accuse the mirror, I only say that it stopped dending files during installing, so I had to power off
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03:08<r_>somiaj sending
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03:08<somiaj>Anyways, to me it sounds like you are having network issues on your end and you need to debug them. Others here may have other ideas.
03:08<somiaj>is this wired or wifi network?
03:08<twb>r_: when that happens, look at the logs on vt4
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03:09<r_>somiaj wired , and the modem works perfectly well, as you see
03:10<r_>somiaj I am using another machine to talk here
03:11<somiaj>maybe check the cable, double check the router, etc. But as twb pointed out you can ctrl-alt-f4, and maybe you'll see some info of what is failing with dhcp
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03:12<r_>I have no logs, no console ; I don't know what vt4 is ; 35 years of programming but 5 months on debian 10
03:12<somiaj>anyways, I have no other ideas except network issue as it explains both symptoms you describe. Maybe check your firmware/bios to see if something in that power off reset network configuration
03:13<somiaj>maybe it is another vt, you can use f1-f7, one of them should have logs on it
03:13<twb>r_: are you using a serial line, or a "normal" keyboard and monitor?
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03:14<somiaj>It could be a bad cable, or wonder if something happened to your network card causing the orignial 'mirror stopped' symptom
03:14<somiaj>I have to head out, others here may have other ideas that I'm not seeing
03:14<twb>r_: if the latter, change VTs with <alt> + <right arrow>
03:15<r_>the cable is cheked, i'm using it know ; i believe something soft happened to the network card
03:15<somiaj>maybe dig through firmware/bios settings
03:16<Dami_Lu>Hi, I have a question
03:16<Dami_Lu>I'm using libmount-dev,
03:16<Dami_Lu>Open source licenses under Util-Linux include GPL-2+, GPL-2, BSD-4-clause, MIT, etc.
03:16<Dami_Lu>So what kind of license should I write for the application I'm using
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03:17<r_>The bios did not change
03:17<somiaj>Dami_Lu: what does /usr/share/doc/libmount/copyright say its license is?
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03:17<twb>Dami_Lu: sensible "I don't really care" choices are 1) expat, or BSD0; or 2) GPL-2+
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03:18<tjcarter>twb: non-sensible "I don't really care" choices are WTFPL. 😈
03:18<Dami_Lu>somiaj: https://salsa.debian.org/debian/util-linux/-/blob/debian/2.33.1-0.1/debian/copyright
03:19*tjcarter generally recommends CC0 in that case.
03:19<somiaj>ahh yea, didn't realize that was part of the linux-util package, anyways, looks like the bulk is gpl-2+, probably a reasonable one to go with
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03:19<r_>twb I'm using a "normal" keyboard and monitor ; when do I have to send alt + right ?
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03:20<somiaj>looksl ike libmount is specificly lgpl-2.1+
03:20<Dami_Lu>twb: I don't know how to choose :-( ,I just used libmount-dev
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03:20<twb>As landley put it: BSD0 is "universal donor" and GPL2+ is "universal recipient"
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03:21<somiaj>you will need a license that is compadable with lgpl-2.1+, outside of that you do have some freedom.
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03:22<twb>Dami_Lu: you might try these: https://tldrlegal.com/ https://choosealicense.com/ (I don't vouch for their accuracy, but at a glance they look mostly sensible)
03:22<Dami_Lu>somiaj:What is the basis for using LGPL-2.1 +
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03:22<somiaj>https://tracker.debian.org/media/packages/u/util-linux/copyright-2.37.2-3 -- libmount/* uses the lgpl-2.1+ license, which is the library you are using
03:23<twb>Dami_Lu: you can also just NOT LICENSE AT ALL
03:23<twb>Dami_Lu: and worry about it later, when someone actually wants to use your app
03:24<FelixActually>What's with this trend of referring to computer programs with the shortened form of "application"...?
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03:25<Dami_Lu>twb:Right now, someone wants to use my software
03:25<twb>Dami_Lu: OK :-)
03:25<FelixActually>Dami_Lu: Just use GNU GPL v2+
03:25<twb>FelixActually: an "application" is something the end user wants to use. A "utility" is something they don't want to use, but need as a means to an end.
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03:26<twb>FelixActually: "programme" could be either of those (or a driver, or a few other things)
03:26<FelixActually>Why not say "application" then?
03:26<FelixActually>It sounds less silly
03:27<twb>citation needed
03:27<FelixActually>The shortened form is merely laziness and a lack of space on mobile computers
03:27<Dami_Lu>FelixActually somiaj : I don't know whether I should use GPLv2+ or LGPL-2.1 + now
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03:28<twb>Dami_Lu: rule of thumb is: libraries use lgpl, apps use gpl
03:28<FelixActually>Dami_Lu: The first, because the FSF specifically recommends against using the Lesser GNU GPL
03:28<Dami_Lu>I would like to know what is the basis of use
03:29<twb>lgpl allows your code to be exploited more than gpl. See that tldr website for gory details
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03:30<Dami_Lu>“rule of thumb is: libraries use lgpl, apps use gpl”This principle is clear to me. I am wondering what libmount-dev should use
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03:30<twb>Dami_Lu: libmount is a library
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03:33<FelixActually>Dami_Lu: Just because it's a library doesn't mean you should automatically use the LGPL
03:34<somiaj>Dami_Lu: libmount already has a license, it is lgpl-2.1+, it isn't a question about what it should use at this point, it has already been licensed.
03:34<somiaj>libmount/* libmount/src/* which would include what is in the libmount-dev package
03:35<r_>I think it's over for me ; I'll try another time ; bye
03:35<Dami_Lu>So I should use lgPL-2.1 plus
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03:36<FelixActually>Dami_Lu: What are you trying to do exactly?
03:36<somiaj>Dami_Lu: only a layer can best answer what you should use for your project.
03:36<twb>*lawyer
03:36<Dami_Lu>I compiled the dependency using libmount-dev
03:37<FelixActually>What dependency?
03:37<Dami_Lu>Build-Depends
03:37<FelixActually>Huh?
03:38<FelixActually>That would be a header for packages needed to build something
03:38<FelixActually>Not a package name
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03:38<twb>Dami_Lu: is your app on github (or similar), so we can actually look at it?
03:38<FelixActually>For their sake, I hope it's not on GitHub
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03:39<twb>Dami_Lu: I think there's some fundamental confusion still
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03:39<Dami_Lu>twb: I'm getting more and more confused
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03:41<Dami_Lu>I just want to know that my program depends on libmount-dev,
03:41<Dami_Lu>What license agreement should I use
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03:42<somiaj>any one that is compadable with lgpl-2.1+
03:42<twb>Dami_Lu: it can be any license that can "accept" libmount's license, which is most of them. Which one you use depends on what YOU want, not on libmount.
03:42<FelixActually>So as I said before, just use GPL v2+
03:42<tjcarter>Dami_Lu: The thing about the LGPL license is that you can use whatever you like.
03:43<tjcarter>Dami_Lu: Your question is actually the subject of a "holy war"
03:44<tjcarter>Dami_Lu: Do you want the license of your program to force other people to "share and share-alike" (using CC's terminology) or do you really not care what they do with your code?
03:44<FelixActually>Requiring that other people actually behave in a reasonable and non-societally-destructive manner? The horror!
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03:45<tjcarter>Dami_Lu: If you don't care, a "MIT-style" license is appropriate. If you want people to give back their changes, GPL.
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03:46<FelixActually>tjcarter, I don't think you're describing this fairly
03:46<somiaj>anyways, I also suggest what FelixActually does, gpl-2+ is reasonable in this case.
03:46<Dami_Lu>Thank you very much, I understand, I use GPL V2 + or GPL V3 + should be ok?
03:47<somiaj>in this case yes, but be careful with gpl-3+ as it isn't compadable with gpl-2
03:47<FelixActually>Dami_Lu: GPL v3 is a better option if you can go for it because it closes some loopholes of GPL v2
03:48<Dami_Lu>FelixActually: ok thanks
03:48<FelixActually>The language "GNU GPL v3, or at your option any later version" is better still, because it means if any future GNU GPL is released, people can choose to use the program under its terms
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03:48<tjcarter>FelixActually: You've made your opinion on licenses abundantly clear: You're a militant social activist when it comes to licensing. Have fun. Now let me be blunt: I have stage 4 cancer. I expect to live a long time despite this, but I'm not going to waste the last of my life trying to cram "good behavior" down people's throats.
03:48<Dami_Lu>somiaj: i thank lgpl-2.1 + is compatible with GPL V3 +
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03:49<tjcarter>Dami_Lu: it's designed to be.
03:50<FelixActually>tjcarter: So because you're going to die at some unspecified future point, as everyone else will unless we resolve society's problems and start actually working together on (for example) consciousness uploading, you consider it not worth it to try to do good?
03:50<tjcarter>FelixActually: plonk
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03:53<Dami_Lu>Thank you again for tjcarter FelixActuallytwb
03:54<sussudio>don't you have anything better to do than be off-topic, FelixActually
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03:55<sussudio>you know he's just that shithead that went under "website" again.
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03:55<tjcarter>sussudio: Did I miss something?
03:56<sussudio>same pointless argumentativeness that has nothing to do with the topic
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03:57<tjcarter>*shrug* The question itself was a bit off-topic TBH, but it seemed more useful to offer an answer than tell him to go elsewhere to get it.
03:57<sussudio>whoa, that's a bad ip address he had there... on a bunch of spamlists.
03:57<sussudio>seems fitting.
03:57<tjcarter>particularly if elsewhere had fewer people who might help with a language difficulty
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04:04<Dami_Lu>Sorry for missing it. Thanks Somiaj
04:04<Dami_Lu>That's all for now, everybody. Thank you
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05:23<twb>Am I mad, or is there no kernel in bullseye-backports yet?
05:23<twb>I feel like I must be looking wrong, because I don't see one
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05:29<tjcarter>twb: there doesn't seem to be?
05:30<twb>OK thanks
05:30<twb>"rmadison linux" confirms 5.14 exists, I guess whatever generous person normally does it, has been busy
05:31<tjcarter>A few people have been having some issues with 5.14 based on traffic here in #debian, so I wonder if it's kinda being held up for a few point releases
05:32<tjcarter>Let is sid folk and the arch guys find all the bugs first
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05:35<orma>I read that there is a chrome patch that fixes a serious vulnerability. I didn't get any chromium update since then, should I avoid using chromium for the mean time?
05:35<twb>orma: do you know the CVE?
05:36<orma>CVE-2021-37973
05:36<orma>according to the article I read
05:37<twb>orma: you're in #debian not #debian-next, so I assume you're running Debian stable. Note that Google choose not to provide LTS/ESR releases of chromium or chrome, so at some point, with no warning, Google will break chromium for Debian Stable, and Debian Security team will have to drop it
05:37<twb>orma: (in other words, if you care about security, on stable, firefox-esr is your only sane choice)
05:37<twb>orma: OK cool so we can go to https://security-tracker.debian.org/tracker/CVE-2021-37973
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05:37<twb>orma: you can see there that Debian hasn't fixed it anywhere yet
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05:39<twb>There's no email on oss-sec yet, so maybe the vuln is still in escrow?
05:39<orma>yes, I am using stable
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05:40<twb>the RH link says "chromium-browser: Use after free in Portals" which doesn't sound unusually bad
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05:41<twb>It also links to code.google.com and google blog
05:41<twb>I can't even view source on code.google.com without a google account >_<
05:44<orma>https://www.forbes.com/sites/gordonkelly/2021/09/25/google-chrome-warning-zero-day-hack-new-attack-upgrade-chrome-now/
05:45<orma>I don't know but according to the articles I've read it seems to be serious stuff
05:45<twb>orma: thanks
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05:45<twb>orma: yeah so basically it's still in escrow
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05:45<twb>orma: only "good enough" distributions are allowed to know any details
05:46<twb>I wonder when Google will get its shit together and stop using C++
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05:48<orma>twb: one question, where did you get information about chromium being dropped in stable? I just want to get such important updates as well
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05:50<twb>orma: it's in the Release Notes
05:50<twb>orma: you can see its dropped for oldstable right now, despite oldstable being overall in ESR state
05:51<twb>orma: basically what happens is chromium will just go "sorry, minimum gcc is now version X" and debian stable has version X-1, so no more chromium in stable.
05:52<mjt>what's wrong with C++?
05:54<mjt>(not for flamewar's sake but I'm curious. Haven't wrote anything big in c++ myself)
05:55<twb>mjt: in the context of "use-after-free" and "double-free" errors, the problem in in C++ those are anywhere from "possible" to "easy"
05:56<mjt>that's inherent from C, no?
05:56<twb>It's inherited from having manual memory management and no/limited safeguards to compensate
05:57<mjt>yeah
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05:58<twb>"automatic memory management is slow" is the usual excuse, and moco's rustlang aims for "nearly as fast as C++; nearly as safe as everything else"
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05:59<twb>If it was a greenfield project I'd be like "use coq!" but browsers also have a huge codebase -- literally 10 times the size of linux, AND all actually used (rather than 95% drivers you don't compile/use)
06:00<mjt>well.. in late 1990s we were joking about next sendmail being written in javascript...
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06:01<twb>mjt: if you want an ACTUAL bonkers, consider that policykit (i.e. "GUI sudo") privilege escalation rules now rely on a fork of the original mozilla javascript engine that Eich wrote in a weekend, and is widely regarded as "not safe for user-supplied input"
06:02<twb>mjt: this is why Debian hasn't upgraded its policykit for like 3 years
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06:02<twb>They could have used liblua or even duktape for a much less "WTF" scenario
06:03<FelixActually>Why doesn't someone else do that then, and Debian use that?
06:03<twb>FelixActually: patches welcome? ;-)
06:04<at0m>twb: "if you can't fix it with duct tape, you haven't used enough of it"
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06:05<mjt>I wondered about why polkit isn't being updated... :)
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06:06<twb>mjt: about once every 3 months I'll be doing systemd/pk stuff and suddenly realize that oh yeah, Debian remains special there
06:06<mjt>"I'll be doing"?
06:06<mjt>what do you mean?
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06:06<twb>mjt: fixing some integration bug
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06:06<twb>example: https://github.com/openbmc/openbmc/issues/3543
06:07<mjt>oh. Another fun thing about firefox under wayland. I can't click links on terminal anymore :)
06:08<twb>mjt: WFM with gnome-terminal and firefox-esr both forced into wayland mode
06:08<twb>mjt: you mean "click link in terminal emulator; firefox opens it" ?
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06:09<twb>mjt: what terminal emulator? Konsole won't use wayland by default in a gnome wayland session
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06:10<mjt>when i restarted ff with MOZ_USE_WAYLAND=1, clicking on a link in a terminal tries to open new *instance* of FF which says FF is already running. Ie, there's a prob with communicating with already running instance or finding one.
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06:59<alex_>Hello there
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08:33<linuxuser>Hello, Need help. I just installed Debian 11 xfce - amd64 and it doesn't connect to ethernet (Realtek RTL8101E). I found a bug report which is archived. I cannot connect to internet at all.
08:33<linuxuser>any help?
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08:35<sussudio>how are you here if you can't connect to the internet
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08:36<linuxuser>I am dual booting from windows 10
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08:37<mosasaur>I don't know a lot, and maybe this command is outdated too, but you could try, if you have root, "sudo ifconfig" to inspect the situation
08:37<sussudio>check the logs, like you should have in the first place.
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08:39<FelixActually>linuxuser: What's the output of "ip link" in a terminal, for the line starting with "enp"?
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08:42<concernedanon10>Hello, I recently noticed that the chromium package on Debian is vulnerable to many known security issues: https://security-tracker.debian.org/tracker/source-package/chromium
08:42<concernedanon10>Looking at the history of Chromium's wiki page (https://wiki.debian.org/Chromium?action=info) it seems like this is a well-known issue that's been happening for a long time. With all due respect, I think that it's utterly irresponsible for the Debian project to ship software like this to users, so I suggest removing the package from the Debian archive
08:42<sussudio>oh no, it's you again.
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08:51<ksatria376>c
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08:51<bentham>concernedanon10: Don't use Chromium. You're right that it isn't safe. That doesn't mean that Debian should not ship it; many people have been forced to use it against their will.
08:52<bentham>Sorry to be so blunt.
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08:53<concernedanon10>bentham: I'm not using it myself, but I still think that it should be removed, since many users are likely installing it without knowing about the associated risks
08:53<sussudio>bentham: pretty sure he's that troll "beuys" again, i mean, just look at that nick.
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08:55<concernedanon10>sussudio: I don't know who "beuys" is, I just noticed an issue and offered a suggestion, that's it
08:55<bentham>sussudio: You might be right; sorry for feeding a possible troll. But let me say: Chromium also makes me sad, frankly, although as someone who is sometimes forced to use problematic software, I can honestly say that I'm glad Debian ships it.
08:57<sussudio>bentham: this is a bit weird. his ip shows he's in iraq, with earthlink as an isp... they're owned by scientology or something.
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08:58<concernedanon10>sussudio: Earthlink is the largest isp in Iraq. And I think that you're being very rude
08:58<sussudio>googling it makes it only worse... allegedly the UN forced "other religions" onto iraq after the war?
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09:00<bentham>sussudio: looks like AS 50710 is legit
09:01<sussudio>seems a fate worse than war, having scientology forced upon you.
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09:02<sussudio>bentham: i kind of want to see what would happen if debian just dropped chromium for being buggy and vulnerable.
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09:03<sussudio>if these things are purposely unfixed, how can you trust chromiumOS/chromebooks?
09:04<ansgar>sussudio: ChromiumOS and Chromebooks don't run Debian's version of chromium.
09:04<concernedanon10>Upstream chromium is fine, Debian chromium is not. That's the issue here.
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09:04<sussudio>from what i understand, chrome is not fine and has at least a few of these bugs.
09:04<bentham>sussudio: although intriguingly it appears that AS 50710 advertises most but not all of the /24 blocks within 37.236.0.0/16. One of them that it does not advertise is 37.236.110.0/24
09:04<mosasaur>I'm using tor whenever I can, and even then disable javascript, but some official, inescapable instances, like banks or governments force me to use stuff like chromium
09:05<sussudio>mosasaur: i bet there's still banks that force you to use IE6.
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09:06<bentham>sussudio: Not surprised; there are banks that don't allow people to do online banking on the basis of their carriers.
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09:06<FelixActually>sussudio: "how can you trust chromiumOS/chromebooks?" — simple answer: you can't :)
09:06<sussudio>school children are using these things.
09:06<bentham>"Upstream chromium is fine" <- not likely
09:07<FelixActually>Some companies love using libre software as the baseboard for subjugation
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09:07<concernedanon10>bentham: elaborate
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09:07<bentham>sussudio: school children are using these things too: https://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/indicator/a13
09:08-!-mode/#debian [+l 978] by debhelper
09:08<bentham>concernedanon10: No, YOU elaborate. You made a claim without support. I am challenging it.
09:08<sussudio>"Google patches 8th Chrome zero-day exploited in the wild this year" < from 2 months ago.
09:08<sussudio>bentham: there's schools here with all-chromebook classes.
09:09<FelixActually>There are likely also intentional hidden exploits and back doors in Chrome and Chromium
09:09<harv-dev>Hey guys, I have newly installed Debian Bullseye+KDE, but when I run `sudo apt update`, the command always fails to fetch the /binary-amd64/Packages file. I have trie using different package mirrors with the same result
09:09<sussudio>... because IT is hard and just letting google "handle" all of it and slurp kids' data is so much easier.
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09:09<jkc>FelixActually: Going hard on the fud this morning, huh?
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09:10<sussudio>harv-dev: your sources.list is probably wrong somewhere
09:10<FelixActually>jkc: It's not fear, uncertainty and doubt when you're talking about companies like Google
09:10<concernedanon10>Is this channel typically filled with trolls and paranoid people, or is today an anomaly?
09:11<jkc>concernedanon10: This is unusual. I'd suggest plonking them and moving on.
09:11<FelixActually>Although uncertainty is certainly a good descriptor for anything like that. Because the point is, you *don't* know. And that's part of the whole problem
09:11<jkc>FelixActually: That statement itself is fud. You do realize that Chromium is open source, right?
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09:11<FelixActually>Indeed I do. "Open source" but sure as heck not free as in freedom
09:11<sussudio>jkc: doesn't chrome have binary blob bits
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09:11<FelixActually>A door may be open, but you are not necessarily free to enter it
09:12<jkc>sussudio: I didn't say Chrome. I said Chromium.
09:12<jkc>Chromium is BSD-licensed, so if that's not free, I think the Debian project should be informed.
09:12<jkc>FelixActually: Now, stop the paranoia and misinformation.
09:13<FelixActually>If I were doing such things then I'd take your advice. But I'm not
09:13<Animortis>harv-dev has an actual support question
09:13<jkc>FelixActually: I just demonstrated that you are. So you are. Now stop.
09:13<FelixActually>It's not paranoia if they're really out to get you. It's not misinformation to say you shouldn't trust
09:13<jkc>FelixActually: Less politely, shut the fsck up.
09:13<harv-dev>my sources.list is takes from debian website, without src https://paste.debian.net/1213545/
09:13<jkc>harv-dev: Are you able to ping anything or otherwise establish external connections?
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09:14<harv-dev>yes, I can jkc - I am using the OS to talk to you right now. It just seems to be the same package that fails every time
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09:15<sussudio>harv-dev: why are you pointing at that bytemark server
09:16<harv-dev>becuase I was testing different servers - all have the same problem. I can point at the default deb.debian if you want
09:16<harv-dev>https://paste.debian.net/1213546/
09:17<jkc>Your mirror isn't the problem.
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09:17<jkc>Post your ENTIRE sources.list file, and anything under /etc/apt/sources.list.d/
09:18<harv-dev>okay one sec
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09:18<sussudio>what are you even doing here... running it in a VM or something?
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09:22<linuxuser>@FelixActually I ran ip link 2: ens128: <BROADCAST,MULTICAST,UP,LOWER_UP> mtu 1500 qdisc pfifo_fast state UP mode DEFAULT group default qlen 1000
09:22<linuxuser> link/ether 56:24:13:71:33:0f brd ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff
09:22<linuxuser> altname enp1s0
09:23<FelixActually>That looks fine
09:23<linuxuser>also this:
09:24<linuxuser>user@debian:~$ uname -a
09:24<linuxuser>Linux debian 5.10.0-8-amd64 #1 SMP Debian 5.10.46-4 (2021-08-03) x86_64 GNU/Linux
09:24<linuxuser>and this:
09:24<linuxuser>user@debian:~$ lspci -nn | grep 0200
09:24<linuxuser>01:00.0 Ethernet controller [0200]: Realtek Semiconductor Co., Ltd. RTL810xE PCI Express Fast Ethernet controller [10ec:8136] (rev 05)
09:24<FelixActually>Can you check your network settings and see if "link negotiation" is set to "ignore"?
09:24<linuxuser>It is set to ignore
09:25<FelixActually>I don't know if it'll be the same because I'm not on XFCE
09:25<mosasaur>maybe now try to ping some address
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09:25<FelixActually>change ignore to automatic
09:25<linuxuser>I found this bug report: https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=845603
09:25<judd>Bug https://bugs.debian.org/845603 in src:linux (closed): «realtek: not Found Firmware RTL8101E/RTL8102E»; severity: important; opened: 2016-11-25; last modified: 2021-06-21.
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09:26<sussudio>curse you, hidden firmware
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09:26<harv-dev>jkc: I have changed my sources back to default provided by the debian wiki and made sure the command still has the same result: https://paste.debian.net/1213548/
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09:27<jkc>See the 'debian-live-media' files in /etc/apt/sources.list.d?
09:27<harv-dev>yeah I do, they shouldne bethere?
09:27<jkc>Are you booted from a live image?
09:28<harv-dev>I am not
09:28<jkc>Then no, they shouldn't be there.
09:29<jkc>That is what is breaking things. The file not found error is not coming from a package mirror.
09:29<jkc>/run/live/medium/dists/bullseye/main/binary-amd64/Packages (2: No such file or directory)
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09:29<wyre>hi guys, why despite I've got `net.netfilter.nf_conntrack_helper = 1` in /etc/sysctl.conf I keep having this message "nf_conntrack: default automatic helper assignment has been turned off for security reasons and CT-based firewall rule not found. Use the iptables CT target to attach helpers instead." in the dmesg?
09:30<jkc>harv-dev: You can move those two files, delete them, whatever, but they shouldn't be there.
09:30<harv-dev>Thanks, seems like my system is pretty up to date now! I didn't think it was the mirror because the same thing happened with every one I tried.
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09:30<jkc>There you go. :)
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09:31<harv-dev>Surely they should be automatically removed when the system installs? Weird. Although my live installation did close itself without any "finished installing, please reboot" message. Maybe it crashed and was unable to clean up after itself...
09:31<jkc>I've never seen those linger before.
09:32<jkc>But that's just me.
09:32<sussudio>do you have to let it linger...
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09:34<DellGuy>I'm getting some error messages from apt update, also Software center. I think my system is confused as to which version/release of Debian it's using. Error message and sources.list contents here: https://paste.debian.net/1213550/
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09:35<sussudio>enjoy your frankendebian.
09:35<DellGuy>sussudio: :(
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09:37<wyre>I had to set 'options nf_conntrack nf_conntrack_helper=1' into a conf file in /etc/modprobe.d/
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09:37<wyre>why is this? I mean, why is not enough setting this in /etc/sysctl.conf?
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09:37<sussudio>wyre: is that the one that is disabled for security reasons...
09:38-!-mode/#debian [+l 987] by debhelper
09:38<wyre>sussudio, sure, but is it enabled if I use the conntrack in nftables?
09:38<grawity>I'm guessing that systemd-sysctl runs a bit before your firewall rules are loaded, and therefore that sysctl parameter doesn't exist yet
09:38<DellGuy>sussudio: Any idea on how I get out of frankendebian state?
09:38<sussudio>!frankendebian
09:38<dpkg>When you get random packages from random repositories, mix multiple releases of Debian, or mix Debian and derived distributions, you have a mess. There's no way anyone can support this "distribution of Frankenstein" and #debian certainly doesn't want to even try. See https://wiki.debian.org/DontBreakDebian and <reinstall>
09:38<DellGuy>Thanks!
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09:39<wyre>grawity, but is that msg about nf_conntrack in the dmesg a problem?
09:39<bentham>DellGuy: sorry about that :/
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09:39<wyre>or is it actually using the conntrack despite that dmesg message?
09:39<grawity>wyre: conntrack *in general* is always being used
09:39<DellGuy>bentham: I think it happened because of me trying to change sources.list to fix the error :/
09:39<grawity>wyre: the message is about *protocol-specific* helpers, like for FTP or PPTP
09:40<wyre>grawity, oh, I see, and could I use these helpers despite the message?
09:40<grawity>yes, you just have to use a specific iptables/nft rule to assign a helper based on dport
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09:40<grawity>e.g. there's a specific nf_conntrack_ftp thing that teaches it how to snoop FTP control connections and automatically mark data connections as "related"
09:40<wyre>so I don't need to fix that message in the dmesg, right?
09:41<DellGuy>Any ideas on how to do a fresh system reinstall in the easiest, correct way, while retaining my personal data/settings..?
09:41<grawity>dunno at the moment, need to catch my bus, but most likely it's fine
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09:41<wyre>thank you grawity 😁
09:41<Animortis>DellGuy: Lots of settings are kept in ~/.config. Back up what you can from there I think?
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09:42<DellGuy>Animortis: Okay. And my personal files/data won't be affected, I guess...
09:42<DellGuy>Animortis: Also, stupid question perhaps, but how do I actually reinstall? Just download a fresh install file and reboot with it on an USB stick?
09:42<Animortis>Personally, I'd back everything up.
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09:43<bentham>DellGuy: Probably easiest to just do a fresh installation and copy over your files to that installation by hand. But if you like hacking, you might enjoy using 'dpkg -l' and 'apt policy'
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09:43<r4fkramer>Hello everybody. Moving on to congratulate the Debian Project once again for the unrivaled development work they have done on bullseye 11.0 !
09:43<r4fkramer>Incredible stability of debian bullseye 11.0, installed on an old pendrive of only 8 GB, with MATE interface and basic additional applications. Something I don't see in any other OS.
09:43<bentham>and manually finding and correcting the packages that were installed from the problematic repository. Good luck!
09:44<DellGuy>bentham: Haha, not a hacker, if that's not apparent yet...
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09:44<r4fkramer>https://paste.debian.net/1213552/
09:44<Animortis>We all start somewhere. I never knew about those myself.
09:44<DellGuy>bentham: When you say fresh installation, you mean a reinstall from a USB stick or similar, I assume? Or is there a way to download and start a reinstall from *within* Debian..?
09:45<bentham>DellGuy: Yea. In that case probably best to just copy your files and reinstall. You might want to keep a list of your packages around to help you get your system back to what you want it to be.
09:45<DellGuy>bentham: Good idea.
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09:45<bentham>DellGuy: No, I really do mean get the ISO image from the Debian web page, put it on a USB stick, and reinstall from there.
09:46<bentham>You should put stuff you want to save somewhere that you can get it later, after you blitz the hard drive of your Frankendebian.
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09:46<DellGuy>bentham: Okay! To-do list: backup ~/.config, home, and list pf packages. Create USB reinstallation stick, reboot and reinstall.
09:47<bentham>DellGuy: that sounds like a fine plan.
09:47<bentham>(assuming that those locations you mention contain everything you want to save.)
09:48<bentham>And assuming that you really do wipe your hard drive when you do the reinstallation; you don't want any ghosts of Frankendebian haunting you later.
09:49<DellGuy>bentham: As a newbie, how do I assure a fresh install really does that?
09:49<DellGuy>ensure*
09:50<bentham>I believe it is the default behaviour to wipe the partitions during the partitioning stage. But what is most important is that if it asks you whether you want to keep the data in your partitions, be sure to say 'no'
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09:51<bentham>Good luck.
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09:53<DellGuy>bentham: Cool! Will do.
09:53<DellGuy>bentham: Thanks so much.
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09:56<mosasaur>in that case, one might as well make new partitions
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09:58<danielssan>oO why reinstall, there isn't too much wrong with it
09:58<bentham>There is enough wrong with it to be a problem, and using 'apt policy' to attempt a fix by hand was not an option.
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10:00<danielssan>idk, fixing the sources.list file should be enough
10:00<mooff>+1 "just redo it" as a time optimization / quality investment
10:00<mooff>underrated
10:01<danielssan>idk what's so hard with fixing the bullseye-security line and removing those 2 third party repos (1 is even unneeded)
10:01<bentham>danielssan: Not really. That does not get rid of the inconsistent packages.
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10:02<DellGuy>Is there, like, a default sources.list I could find and replace my faulty one with?
10:02<danielssan>bentham: which are? he was only complaining about apt not knowing which distro it is (which makes sense as there are literally 4 lines which are wrong
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10:03<mooff>if you did some non-trivial upgrades with a frankendebian sources.list, a 'known good' state is NP-hard to return to
10:03<mooff>if you don't have a frankendebian, don't worry
10:04<danielssan>DellGuy: something like this https://paste.debian.net/1213557/
10:04<mooff>or what's the complexity class of problems that take humans hours to do imperfectly
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10:04<DellGuy>I wonder how much I could mess up by simply trying danielssan's way before trying a full reinstall.
10:05<FelixActually>Doing backups regularly is a good idea anyway, so why not back up first, then try that way, then reinstall if it doesn't work?
10:05<danielssan>DellGuy: just as a sidenote, reffering to stable is mostly not recommended (as it would automatically upgrade to the next version when it is released)
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10:06<DellGuy>danielssan: All right. I don't know how that got into my sources.list in the first place...
10:07<danielssan>DellGuy: i would also try to use as much as possible the official repos (looking at that lutris repo, lutris is in debian, so there is no need for that repo)
10:08<mooff>i have / had lutris installed from one of its official repos for a long time
10:08<mooff>it works fine, though their keys expire year or two
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10:09<mooff>lutris + bullseye-security != frankendebian
10:10<DellGuy>danielssan: Hm. This is embarrassing, but I'm not sure where the Lutris entry is, don't see it in my sources.list
10:10<danielssan>DellGuy: it's this line http://download.opensuse.org/repositories/home:/strycore/Debian_10
10:10<DellGuy>danielssan: Okay
10:11<DellGuy>danielssan: But that line isn't in my sources.list, though
10:11<DellGuy>I think I need to research how I added those non-free repos int he first place. I think additional files in the sources.list directory
10:11<petn-randall>!non-free
10:11<dpkg>[non-free] a component which contains software that does not comply with the <DFSG>. To add non-free packages to your packages index, ask me about <non-free sources>. To see which non-free packages are installed ask me about <non-free list>.
10:11<petn-randall>!non-free sources
10:11<dpkg>Edit /etc/apt/sources.list, ensure that the two main Debian mirror lines end with "main contrib non-free" rather than just "main", then «apt-get update». But bear in mind that you'll be installing <non-free> software. These may have onerous terms; check the licenses. See also <sources.list>.
10:12<petn-randall>DellGuy: Probably like this. ^^^
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10:15<DellGuy>Yeah, I have those additions, but I must have also just added the URL to the non-free repos, like Lutris, somehow...
10:15<DellGuy>Like sudo add-apt-repository ppa:lutris-team/lutris
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10:16<danielssan>DellGuy: that is something you only should do in ubuntu ;)
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10:16<DellGuy>danielssan: I know, I just copied a line from an Ubuntu guide, haha.
10:16<DellGuy>danielssan: But there was a similar process to Debian, for adding it, I recall.
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10:17<danielssan>DellGuy: debian way is just adding it to /etc/apt/sources.list.d/specificfileforyourrepo.repo ;)
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10:18<DellGuy>danielssan: Ah, now that's familiar
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10:23<danielssan>DellGuy: please don't just randomly pm people, so other people can also see what you are typing
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10:24<DellGuy>danielssan: I'm sorry
10:24<danielssan>DellGuy: just to point out again ;) don't mix debian and ubuntu stuff ;)
10:25<DellGuy>danielssan: Oh, I know. Now, but didn't when I started..
10:25<DellGuy>danielssan: Is there a way to track which program a repo is connected to?
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10:27<danielssan>DellGuy: not really, as debian doesn't track where the package comes from
10:27<DellGuy>I guess I could remove some of these with add-apt-repository
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10:27<danielssan>DellGuy: before removing them, figure out what comes from that repo (and maybe remove)
10:27<DellGuy>danielssan: Sounds wise.
10:28<DellGuy>But your recommendation to try, before reinstall, is to replace sources.list with a default, the one you posted.
10:28<DellGuy>And then what, do an apt upgrade?
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10:29<danielssan>DellGuy: well first you should figure out which software you want to use (and repos) and then we can figure out your other issues (afaik the skype repo for example)
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10:30<danielssan>your sources.list file itself, should be fine with the link I gave you, and then we can see which errors are left
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10:31<DellGuy>danielssan: On it. Just removed a software/repo I no longer use.
10:32<jimpop>do all (stable) kernel updates generally create /run/reboot-required?
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10:32<jimpop>i was under the impression that they do, but I am not seeing it in testing and now wondering if that is still a thing.
10:34<DellGuy>danielssan: Tried to remove its repo with apt-add-repository -r, and got "aptsources.distro.NoDistroTemplateException: Error: could not find a distribution template for Debian/bullseye"
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10:34<DellGuy>Which I assume means I should fix my "Frankendebian" first...
10:34<danielssan>DellGuy: just remove the repo lines or the file itself
10:34<DellGuy>danielssan: Will do.
10:35<mosasaur>no, backup is always first. It eases the mind so decisions start flowing more naturally
10:36<DellGuy>danielssan: The others are for applications I use (Lutris, Signal, Skype, Teamviewer) and one I can't yet identify the need/source of (the Ubuntu one)
10:36<danielssan>DellGuy: as I said, I would just remove the official lutris repo and use lutris from debian
10:36<danielssan>which one is the ubuntu one again?
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10:38<DellGuy>danielssan: Hm, any way I can do that and keep my Lutris installation?
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10:38<DellGuy>danielssan: the Ubuntu one is "armando-basile-ubuntu-xenial-hirsute.list"
10:38<danielssan>DellGuy: remove lutris, remove repo, install lutris (remove not purge)
10:38<DellGuy>danielssan: Ok!
10:40<DellGuy>Done.
10:41<danielssan>DellGuy: can you paste apt policy (after an apt update)? let's see where we stand now
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10:42<DellGuy>danielssan: https://paste.debian.net/1213563/
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10:43<danielssan>DellGuy: do you get any errors now?
10:43<DellGuy>When doing what?
10:44<DellGuy>apt update?
10:44<danielssan>yeah
10:44<danielssan>and don't you want -security oO?
10:44<DellGuy>danielssan: Yeah, I do, same as before: https://paste.debian.net/1213565/
10:44<DellGuy>I guess I want -security, what is it? Haha
10:45<danielssan>ahh so you didn't fix your debian repos,
10:45<DellGuy>danielssan: I have yet to fix the sources.list file, yes
10:45<DellGuy>Should I do so now?
10:45<danielssan>do that please
10:45<DellGuy>Yes
10:46<danielssan>so what I can assume is the ubuntu repo you were talking about is the signal one? if yes, i guess there is nothing to do (except maybe using flatpak)
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10:48<DellGuy>danielssan: apt update looking better now, error wise: https://paste.debian.net/1213567/
10:49<DellGuy>danielssan: apt policy: https://paste.debian.net/1213568/
10:49<danielssan>wth 873 packages to upgrade oO
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10:49<DellGuy>Is that due to my previous Frankendebian-ness?
10:50<luv4cheese>Hello, I am trying to solve a "error failed to send host log message".
10:50<danielssan>no, as most things were okay (except the -security repo)
10:50<DellGuy>danielssan: Hm... strange. Time to do an apt upgrade?
10:50<danielssan>DellGuy: could you paste apt list --upgradable?
10:50<DellGuy>danielssan: Yes
10:51<petn-randall>luv4cheese: You will have to provide a lot more context for us to be able to help.
10:51<petn-randall>!context
10:51<dpkg>Try to give enough context! For example, let us know which command/program you are running, what you expected, and what you got instead. Try to be as specific as possible. If your command produced output, share the complete command (with all parameters!) and its output on https://paste.debian.net.
10:51<luv4cheese>The context is when I try to log into Debian 11 it never remembers my username
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10:52<DellGuy>danielssan: apt list --upgradeable https://paste.debian.net/1213569/
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10:53<luv4cheese>While the Grub is booting it says "*ERROR* Failed to send log"
10:53<danielssan>DellGuy: okay yeah seems like your install was on buster, not bullseye
10:53<DellGuy>danielssan: I think so, yes.
10:53<danielssan>DellGuy: so let's fix your skype issue
10:54<DellGuy>danielssan: Okay, sure, I guess I have to re-verify the key someho
10:54<DellGuy>somehow
10:54<danielssan>best I can say is to reinstall the deb from their website, as you don't get their key otherwise
10:54<DellGuy>Sure, will do.
10:54<DellGuy>Uninstall first? Remove repo, even..?
10:55<danielssan>DellGuy: the only thing I would do is remove the key maybe first, then reinstall just the deb with apt install ./skype.deb
10:55<luv4cheese>Is it a problem with ibus?
10:55<DellGuy>Yeah, cool.
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10:55<danielssan>you would do that with apt-key list, apt-key remove (and then the last 2 sections of the key)
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10:56<luv4cheese>Alrighty... Startpage it is
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10:57<DellGuy>danielssan: the last 2 sections means the last two groups of four letters/numbers, right?
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10:58<danielssan>DellGuy: yes :) english is not my first language, so didn't know better how to say it :P
10:58<DellGuy>danielssan: Mine either, hehe
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11:02<DellGuy>Done, removed keys and reinstalled Skype
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11:02<danielssan>DellGuy: any errors?
11:02<DellGuy>None
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11:03<danielssan>awesome, so now you may upgrade to bullseye with apt upgrade, apt full-upgrade, reboot if you want ;)
11:03<DellGuy>danielssan: Awesome!
11:03<DellGuy>Can I do apt upgrade && apt full-upgrade +
11:03<DellGuy>?
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11:04<danielssan>DellGuy: you could
11:04<DellGuy>danielssan: Thanks so much!
11:04<danielssan>no problem, be glad that the repos you added weren't harmful ;)
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11:05<DellGuy>Haha, yeah. I've learned my lesson there. Early days with Debian for me meant lots of foolish pasting things from the internet...
11:05<eugenmayer>Hello. btrfs-tools is gone with bullseye - has it been merged into btrfs-progs?
11:05<danielssan>yes
11:05<danielssan>DellGuy: things you learn on the way ;)
11:06<DellGuy>danielssan: Yes :) Thanks again!
11:06<danielssan>eugenmayer: yes ;)
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11:08<eugenmayer>danielssan: thank you sir!
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12:47<openpotr>anyone knows how to spoof tbb?
12:47<openpotr>to make it look like google browser
12:48<petn-randall>openpotr: Why would you want that?
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12:49<openpotr>to test how would it appear in my own server
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12:50<petn-randall>openpotr: How would your server affect how a client looks like?
12:51<openpotr>do you know how to do it?
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12:54<petn-randall>openpotr: No, and I don't think there's a use case for that, so I doubt it being possible.
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13:17<brais>goodbye
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13:22<another>openpotr: Please note that the tor browser has a fixed user agent on purpose. Changing it will make you more identifyable
13:23<openpotr>no
13:23<another>no?
13:23<kpcyrd>openpotr: your server might not detect it's not google chrome, but I certainly can :)
13:24<another>what do you mean with "no"?
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13:26<openpotr>the purpose of not letting the user change its useragent was made to try to reduce tor abuse
13:26<openpotr>and to make it more noob friendly
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13:28<another>Nobody preventing you from changing AFAIK. And I'm fairly sure it's a security feature
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13:28<another>making everyone look the same, no matter what OS, etc
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14:46<nickel>guys, i am on bullseye and want to install flatpak firefox. does flatpak firefox obey system's font rendering settings?
14:47<bremner>well, it's not from debian, so dunno.
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14:50<sussudio>nickel you are tesseract on the other network, aren't you.
14:51<bentham>speculation my friend
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14:54<sussudio><tesseract> anyone use flatpak firefox here? does it obey system font rendering settings?
14:54<sussudio>it's a mystery.
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14:55<sney>haha
14:55<sney>I wonder what's so scary about just trying it, without permission from irc support
14:56<sussudio>this was over 4 hours ago, so probably very scary.
14:57<nickel>sussudio: yes its me
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15:00<sussudio>another columbo case solved.
15:01<sussudio>already had an answer too. <Khepra> but a flatpak can, and does, use system paths mount INTO it's environment. runtime, users special homedir, whatever the interfaces/portals define and methinks, fontconfig stuffs too, yes
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15:30<tjcarter>sney: a few people trying stuff on their own seems to end badly.
15:30*tjcarter has nightmare visions of people whining that oldstable XFCE was old
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15:37<sney>a flatpak for one application is obviously different from mixing random debian repos or trying to replace an entire desktop environment, but ok
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15:40<tjcarter>yes, but I'm certain that a person who tries mixing random Debian repos without knowledge of the effects will undoubtedly attempt to mix flatpak in for good measure in ways that don't work and then wonder why "your" software is broken
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15:42<tjcarter>I'm being a grouch and am underslept … I should rectify one of those.
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16:40<Animortis>Do we have a regular help forum?
16:41<Animortis>My ask is complex.
16:41<crawler>https://forums.debian.net
16:41<Animortis>Ah, duh
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16:44<sney>Animortis: the debian-user mailing list is more official than the forum, though they both usually have qualified people
16:44<Animortis>Ty vm
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16:50<Sqrt{not}>https://lists.debian.org/ or https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/ or even flavors in non-english languages
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17:05<Animortis>I have finally found the way to udpate the initramfs hooks for luks encryption.
17:05<Animortis>Once I finalize it, I'm going to make a youtube video of this.
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19:00<danielssan>sussudio: just as a sidenote, last time it used firefox from flatpak it didn't use system fonts :/
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19:49<goose2>I just reinstalled debian, reusing a pre-existing lvm vg. I reformatted each lv except for /home. I have clearly fucked up fstab & crypttab and don't know how to repair it. Right now in crypttab I just have the vg root and its uuid with boot option luks.
19:50<goose2>When booting it can't find the vg and drops me into a busy box shell
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19:51<goose2>I don't even see /boot listed :/ nor is there an /etc/fstab.
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19:57<sussudio>goose2: there should be a sample fstab in /usr/share/doc/mount/examples/fstab
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19:58<koollman>goose2: is it possible that you didn't reformat /boot either ? (thus, maybe you are booting on the old debian /boot, which cannot find its lv ? )
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19:58<goose2>koollman: no, i formatted /boot
19:59<goose2>sussudio: I don't even know if the proper root is mounted, there is no /usr/share/
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20:00<goose2>I'm trying to manually mount from within busybox shell `mount /dev/mapper/vg-root /mnt/root` but apparently there is no such file or directory lol
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20:00<goose2>(there is)
20:00<r4fkramer>HI all, please, Please what is the name of the 'duf' package in the stable debian bullseye archive? I have this application on KALI, which is based on the testing version of Debian; but, I couldn't install it on Debian.
20:00<sussudio>goose2: were you in here with this same shit a while ago
20:01<sussudio>,v duf
20:01<judd>Package: duf on amd64 -- bookworm: 0.6.2-1+b2; sid: 0.6.2-1+b2
20:01<sarnold>goose2: check dmesg? there may be more errors there
20:01<r4fkramer>Even using debian testing here, I couldn't find it
20:01<sussudio>,i duf
20:01<judd>No package named 'duf' was found in bullseye/amd64.
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20:01<sney>,file bin/duf
20:02<judd>No packages in bullseye/amd64 were found with that file.
20:02<goose2>sussudio: something similar, yes. but that was a different problem / different solution. had trouble with a newer kernel. nothing special about this setup, though. just a fresh debian install.
20:02<sussudio>wasn't stuff move to /usr/sbin or something
20:02<koollman>goose2: /mnt/root exists and is a directory, and /dev/mapper/vg-root exists and is a symlink to an actual /dev/dm-XX file that exists ?
20:02<sney>judd will match sbin for that query if it exists
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20:03<goose2>koollman: yes
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20:04<sney>r4fkramer: well, duf is in testing (bookworm) so if you don't see it, you probably are either missing an entry in your sources.list, or you need to run 'apt update'.
20:05<r4fkramer>Thank you sussudio and sney. I found .deb to be installed via dpkg, but I'd preferred it existed in testing or stable branch.
20:05<koollman>r4fkramer: it exists in testing
20:05<koollman>goose2: then that error message is rather strange
20:06<goose2>indeed
20:06<r4fkramer>Fine, sney, I just forgot to include testing repo here - but, if I do it, I mix stable with testing repos. So, I'll forget about it. Thank you for help and assistance :)
20:06<goose2>I've tried mounting via /dev/vg/root /dev/dm-2 and /dev/mapper/vg-root with no success
20:06<r4fkramer>FIne, koollman, thanks for information.
20:06<sney>r4fkramer: so this was a lie? please do not lie, it makes support difficult. <r4fkramer> Even using debian testing here, I couldn't find it
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20:07<r4fkramer>No sney, I wasn't a lie, I never used such behavior.
20:07<r4fkramer>Let me explain you ....
20:08<sney>r4fkramer: anyway, if you want it available in bullseye (stable), then email debian-backports@lists.debian.org and request it.
20:10<goose2>Kohlrabi: going to boot into a live iso and try mounting. Thing is, if vg-root isn't mounting then what am I looking at when I get dropped into busybox?
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20:13<A|an>https://www.admin-magazine.com/News/Black-Lotus-Labs-Confirms-Serious-Flaw-in-Windows-Subsystem-for-Linux
20:14<r4fkramer_>I use KALI, and Kali is based in testing version (so, debian testing repository too). I installed 'duf' in KALI, and I thought it was about the same (clone with some little modifications) debian testing repository
20:15<r4fkramer_>as I use 'backports' repository in debian stable, I thought it was available too (backports repository is 'testing' based, or not ?0
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20:16<danielssan>r4fkramer_: it is based on testing, but not every package is available
20:16<r4fkramer_>sney, bad communication here, I never act like that (telling lies, or something like that)
20:17<r4fkramer_>Fine, danielssan, that's why I told I'm using testing repo here, for I included 'backports' in my sources.lists. Thank you for information :)
20:17<sney>r4fkramer_: backports is testing based, but packages do not automatically go there, you have to request them. which is why I suggested [18:08:28] <sney> r4fkramer: anyway, if you want it available in bullseye (stable), then email debian-backports@lists.debian.org and request it.
20:17<sney>r4fkramer_: and if you weren't lying, then try to be more specific, so we aren't troubleshooting the wrong thing.
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20:18<r4fkramer_>Ok sney, I wasn't lying - I respect and consider You all a lot to act like that.
20:18<r4fkramer_>I just made confusion because for me, I was really using 'testing' including backports in my stable sources.list
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20:20<r4fkramer_>Something technically permitted - if I include more than that in my stable sources.list, I was mixing stable with testing repos, and creating a frankdebian
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20:27<r4fkramer_>Anyway, thank You very much koolman, sussudio sney and danielssan, for attention and Great Support :) And sorry for confusion made here, sney.
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20:30<goose2>What does busybox drop me into where there are some standard directories that would be found in / but if the lv for root isn't mounted
20:31<goose2>ie, vg-root has /etc/fstab but when in the recovery shell no such file exists
20:32<goose2>obviously because decrypting wasn't possible yet
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20:32<danielssan>goose2: yes, because it can't find your vg, so basically your disk is not mounted
20:33<goose2>right, so in this live image, I'll set up a chroot, and redo /etc/fstab and /etc/crypttab, and then update-initramfs / grub-update?
20:33<danielssan>update-grub but yes
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20:43<twb>re "how is there no bpo kernel yet" whinge yesterday, I just realized Debian 11 has only been out for <2 months. I still mentally think of it being 2021Q2.
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20:52<somiaj>I don't think the new kernel has made it into testing either, there are some blocks on it
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20:53<danielssan>it transitioned today/yesterday
20:55<somiaj>oh it did, nice, I thought maybe nvidia was blocking it
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20:56<somiaj>though anyways, backport should be soon, though anyone using nvidia won't be able to backport
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21:15<new>Hello, someone help me installing debian
21:15<new>just want to ask some questions
21:16<new>I've GeForce MX230 nvidia graphics, what is perferred way of installing it
21:16<new>so that it would nt break debian
21:16<sney>is that a standalone nvidia card, or intel+nvidia optimus?
21:17<new>i think i've intel card also
21:17<new>graphics
21:17<sney>a laptop?
21:17<new>yes i'm in laptop,i 'm currently using ubuntu
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21:18<sney>ok, prime render offload with nvidia-driver is usually the best approach, https://wiki.debian.org/NVIDIA%20Optimus#PRIMEOffload
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21:18<sney>installing nvidia-driver is easy, you just enble non-free, install your kernel headers and the nvidia-driver package, let it build, and reboot
21:18<new>It is xorg, or does it contain wayland
21:19<sney>wayland is used by default for gnome on debian, everything else uses xorg.
21:19<sney>nvidia-driver can work with both
21:20<new>Thank you
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21:20<new>sir i've questions to ask on not to break debian.
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21:20<sney>if you don't want to break debian, don't use packages from other sources.
21:20<sney>and don't mix releases.
21:21<sney>there are more tips here,
21:21<sney>dpkg: dontbreakdebian
21:21<dpkg>well, dont break debian is https://wiki.debian.org/DontBreakDebian
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21:22<new>yes but like sometimes for example, postman, postgresql, qt6, intellij, what shoudl i do sir, for those version qt6 , but debian have qt5 ,
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21:24<new>would i be sure that, nothing would break, Like i've installed debian couple time, but evertime it got broked, but for last year, i'm using ubuntu, nothing is broken
21:25<sney>debian gets broken by mixing libraries and software that were not tested together
21:25<new>sir, how can i know if my latest intel hardware is supported in my linux
21:25<sney>if you need a lot of packages that are not in debian, then maybe debian is not appropriate for your use case.
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21:26<new>sir, if i install the bookworm testing version, what are chances that it will not be broken,
21:27<sney>bookworm is fine for me right now, but I'm using common hardware and I'm an experienced user. you never know.
21:27<sney>we're at the beginning of a testing cycle, so there will be big transitions coming, that could break lots of stuff.
21:27<new>thank you.
21:28<new>sir, Is there any way to use packages saperate from debian like snap or flatpack, which dont interfere with breaking debian.
21:28<sney>for checking hardware support, you can just look up drivers on kernel.org, for instance https://wireless.wiki.kernel.org/en/users/drivers/iwlwifi says that ax210 was added in the 5.10 kernel
21:28<sney>you can use snaps and flatpaks on debian, yes.
21:29<netx>flatpak works quite well on Debian. I use it for end-user packages that move much faster than Debian permits, like Firefox.
21:29*jonathon just uses Arch for situations where bleeding-edge is needed
21:30<cowboypenguin>Flatpak works great on Debian. Never tried snaps, but it's really rare for me to find an app that is only in snap form.
21:30<sney>the downside of snap and flatpak is that the applications are designed to be contained, so sometimes they don't integrate very well.
21:30<sney>but that's easy enough to work around if you know what you're doing
21:31<netx>Yeah sney, I had to do some manual hackery to get my Flatpak Firefox to talk to my Flatpak KeePassXC. But other than that, it works quite nicely.
21:31<cowboypenguin>the nvidia driver wasn't working for me earlier today when trying to upgrade to bookworm, but that could be user error.
21:32<sney>yeah, nvidia-driver in bookworm doesn't build with 5.14 currently. but if you install bullseye and then upgrade to bookworm, you'll have a working system and can wait for the nvidia-driver update
21:33<sney>(or use nvidia-driver from sid, allegedly)
21:33<somiaj>the bug report I found says we need to wait for the new upstream release to make it into debian, but maybe the sid one works
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21:34<new>i see in snapcrapt, that snap can be installed "sudo apt install snapd" not mention for bullseye though
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21:34<sney>yes that also works for bullseye
21:34<jonathon>is testing a viable daily system now? always used to be that testing wasn't advised for general use due to a lack of e.g. security updates, so the choice came down to stable or sid?
21:34<sney>,v snapd
21:34<judd>Package: snapd on amd64 -- stretch: 2.21-2+b1; buster: 2.37.4-1+b1; bullseye: 2.49-1+b5; bookworm: 2.51.7-2+b1; sid: 2.51.7-2+b1
21:35<new>yes :)
21:35<new>sir,
21:35<sney>jonathon: it depends on where you are in the testing cycle. right now I wouldn't recommend it for most, because we don't even *know* the depths of transitions coming down the pipe
21:35<sney>jonathon: for security support, you can always mix testing with unstable, that's how most of us use it - updating packages to the sid version as needed
21:36*jonathon ran sid+experimental for a while a few years ago, worked well enough
21:36<sney>but anything like "always used to be" is inapplicable for both testing and sid, because they're always different. every ~2 years we go through massive changes.
21:36<new>If i install firefox 92 version through snap, and i also have firefox 78 in apt, if i upgrade or updated, is there any chances to break or is it fine
21:36<sney>firefox from snap will not conflict at all with firefox-esr from apt
21:37<new>yes thank yuou
21:37<netx>Can't speak to snap, but with flatpak, the configs directories are totally different, so no conflicts between Debian and flatpak versions.
21:40<new>[07:18] <sney> installing nvidia-driver is easy, you just enble non-free, install your kernel headers and the nvidia-driver package, let it build, and reboot sir, if i install that from just non free
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21:41<new>and would i get that software nvidia-xserver-settings just like ubuntu https://imgbb.com/
21:41<new>sorry, https://ibb.co/T4cwSGC is screenshot
21:41<new>would i be able to get this
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21:42<sney>yes, the nvidia package in debian installs whatever nvidia settings gui comes with the driver
21:43<sney>as long as that's a nvidia component and not something special that ubuntu made, it will be included
21:45<new>sir i found i've two graphics NVIDIA Corporation GP108M [GeForce MX230] / Mesa Intel® Iris(R) Plus Graphics (ICL GT2) can i be 100% sure, that just installing non-free version of debian, i would be able to get those already
21:45<twb>Nooooooo: https://kmuto.jp/debian/hcl/ ==> 504 bad gateway
21:45<sney>twb: it's a gross pile of ruby 1.8 stuff, want to revive it? :D
21:45<sney>I think themill considered it but ran away screaming
21:46<sney>new: there is no such "non-free version of debian", you install debian, and add some non-free packages. but as long as that nvidia model is supported by the 460 driver series, it will work
21:46<twb>I actually want to know "what is the minimum kernel for GPU with make:model xxx"
21:47<new>I've found that debian 11 have gnome 38 , while my currently ubuntu is gnome 36, looks bullseye is bleeding age in gnome than ubuntu
21:48<sney>debian and ubuntu have different release cycles, ubuntu will be ahead again in a year
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21:48<sney>and then sid will start working on gnome 40, I guess
21:48<jonathon>(except next ubuntu is supposed to have 3.38...)
21:49<twb>sney: although it is a bti weird because ubuntu cadence and gnome cadence were supposed to be synced...
21:49<sney>best laid plans
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21:49<themill>twb, sney: I've got python modules that do 90% of the grunt. They'll get plugged into judd some time very soon. Whether a web interface is wanted too I don't know
21:49<sney>ubuntu's 3.38 will probably be full of extra patches that make it cooler than debian's or something
21:50<sney>oh cool, a web interface would be handy (even if minimal)
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21:51<new>sir is there any performance wise difference when using packages from snap rather than apt, like i want emacs 28 version , but debian contains 27, would it be ok in performance if i install from snap and use it for long term,
21:51<sarnold>new: the first execution of snap programs is often slower than the first execution of deb programs, but it should be pretty close after that
21:51<danielssan>twb: it is, but because 40 changed quite a lot canonical didn't have the time to adapt their extensions
21:52<sney>!tias
21:52<dpkg>TIAS is "Try It And See".
21:52<jonathon>new: slightly tangential question, if you want bleeding-edge packages, why are you looking at debian as your os?
21:52<sney>probably hoping for a more technical experience than ubuntu, since that's what they're coming from
21:52<sney>it's a good question though.
21:54<new>@jonathon, i dont know , but i like debian, because of granddaddy distro, I wanted to install arch, but i heard it is rolling and would break and also it doesnt support some gnu terms, I also got story of ian murdock which i feel so good to use debian ,
21:55<new>I dont want bleeeding edge, but just like some like emacs 28 is supported only for doom emacs not for 27, and also other many packages , so installing those is
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21:55<danielssan>new: sounds like debian isn't really for you :/
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21:55<danielssan>something like fedora would better fit, imho
21:57<sney>new: try debian if you want to try it, but try other stuff too. only you can decide what works best for yourself
21:57<new>@danielsan, i wanted to use fedora or other distro, but i'm not sure, like that manjaro kde added vivaldi webbrowser as default, and something proprietary other than that are very very needed.
21:58<danielssan>fedora is completly foss, so it's not something like manjaro
21:58<somiaj>the 'also many other packages' is a sign debian might not be the best for your usecase, the more and more you get outside of stable, the more you have to trust/maintain other methods and deal with compadability issues
21:58<jonathon>possibly trisquel if libre is a key factor and deb is wanted
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21:59<new>no trisequel, i've be living in hell, no fast performance, no wifi adaptar
21:59<danielssan>jonathon: still missing the "newer packages" from trisquel
21:59<jonathon>true
21:59<jonathon>so, yes, fedora :)
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22:01<new>:) , i wanted to look like hacker, so im getting rid of ubuntu, and trying some distro, also ubuntu have some issues with privacy i heard
22:01<new>I think i'll install fedora :)
22:01<sney>!mentions
22:01<dpkg>'@name' style mentions, common on social media and newer chat platforms, are not part of IRC. Most IRC clients ignore this kind of highlight. If you want to get someone's attention on IRC, don't @ them, simply type their nick at the beginning of the line. And while we have your attention, make sure that you read the <channel topic>.
22:02<jonathon>also just for consideration, "i heard that" is generally not a strong reason for doing something
22:02<new>no there are other reason , like i just love opensource especially that agree with gnu :)
22:03<new>like debian
22:03<new>:)
22:03<jonathon>for example, building up an Ubuntu installation from a mini.iso means you get only the stuff you specifically want and avoid any "privacy issues" like hardware statistic reporting - and you still benefit from the PPA ecosystem for newer packages
22:03<sney>yes, debian has the DFSG and is more serious about Free Software and licensing than a lot of others
22:03-!-Guest1270 [~sevu@000261e5.user.oftc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
22:04<somiaj>though fsf still won't recommend debian...
22:04<jonathon>-.-
22:04<sney>right, I was skipping over that part ;)
22:04<somiaj>new: you could also get use to using what is available in debian stable, might find you don't need all these other newe packages.
22:04<new>yes, but debian is at least in , give two both free and non free in different
22:04<danielssan>jonathon: mini.iso is deprecated from ubuntu
22:05<jonathon>:O
22:05<danielssan>you would need to bootstrap the system yourself :/
22:06<somiaj>new: yea, fsf just doesn't like how we recommended non-free to users who want it.
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22:06<somiaj>it is to easy to install non-free, won't recomend
22:06<danielssan>does somebody know how to see events in evolution which happened in the past?
22:06<new>arch have completely rolling release, and still people use, but why people dont recommend to install debian testing
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22:07<sney>because they have opinions that may or may not be accurate ;)
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22:07<sney>you have to be technical, and know what you are doing, to use testing safely and effectively. But it's no different for arch
22:08<sney>there's a lot of distro loyalty too. *shrug* just use what you like
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22:10<new>guys what linux distros do you use daily on your home
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22:11<danielssan>debian, debian and debian :)
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22:11<new>are you also using new hardware and nvidia drivers
22:11<sney>proxmox (which is heavily debian based) and debian
22:12<sney>my system with nvidia graphics is out of commission right now, but usually
22:12<somiaj>newish hardware, but I know not to buy bleeding edge hardware
22:12<danielssan>yup same here (no nvidia at all)
22:12<danielssan>have some random integrated gpu :)
22:12<somiaj>I use nvidia and game, and it has worked fine for me for years
22:12<new>proxmox as daily distro
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22:14<danielssan>i mean you could, but why bother
22:14<sney>proxmox is in use daily because it's on 24/7, hosting a bunch of things I use
22:14<new>server
22:15<sney>hypervisor, yes
22:15<danielssan>eh, i thought new meant it like a desktop system
22:15<danielssan>and i just don't like the webui :(
22:16<new>guys , how much code is difference between the debian based distro and red hat based distro
22:17<dvs>O_O
22:17<sney>!idfma
22:17<dpkg>Insufficient Data For Meaningful Answer
22:18<new>guys, what other linux distro would you recommed , that is also grandaddy, somehow follows gnu principles , also looks hard to use , also have tragic story like debian,
22:18<sney>upstream software usually the same, kernel usually mostly the same, package manager etc way different, etc
22:18<sney>hahaha that's a lot of criteria
22:18<somiaj>gentoo is quite old and is hard to use
22:18<sney>but does it have a tragic story
22:19<new>ian / debra, and things, death a very sad story
22:19<somiaj>It has tragically broken lots of times?
22:19<Sqrt{not}>solaris had a tragic story
22:19<somiaj>or use raiserfs, or is it too soon?
22:20<sarnold>Sqrt{not}: too soon man, too soon
22:20<new>not gpl
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22:22<danielssan>new: that's why it's gpl2 ;)
22:23<new>why linus torvald dont choose gpl3
22:23<new>what would happen if he choose gpl3 suddenly
22:23<danielssan>because of tivotization (or however you write that)
22:24<somiaj>From a speach I saw of his, he just has a different view point and doesn't see tivoszation as a bad thing
22:24<danielssan>new: all contributors would need to accept the change, which means writing quite a few emails ;)
22:24<somiaj>he is happy that he stuck with gpl2 as it is the sharing of code that is most important.
22:24<danielssan>if not, the code would need to be stripped out
22:25<danielssan>yeah i see it the same way torvalds does. imho its on the consumer to decide if it's okay or not
22:26<new>what linux distro does torvalds use? why?
22:26<new>does he sometimes come to this irc
22:26<danielssan>fedora, because of the upstream mentality and newer packages
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22:27<new>is fedora as same as rolling or does it have stable unstable things
22:28<somiaj>might need to ask him that, though when asked why he didn't run debian at a debconf, his answer was basically he doesn't care that much what distro, and just wants easy and what ever gets him to the hardware layer for programing
22:28<sney>I think they have numbered releases, but you should check fedora's website or irc channels for questions about fedora
22:28<danielssan>yeah it would be best to ask in the fedora irc, or forums or reddit or sth, rather than in a debian support channel
22:29<new>ah sorry :)
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22:33<new>is there any debian distros that is based on kiss philosophy like arch
22:35<new>ok bye, thank you for answering my doubts, take care guys, I'm installing fedora :) , sorry for asking stupid questions
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23:00<ejohb>Hi friends, anyone else experiencing issues with the new kernel update to bookworm release? I'm having issues with nouveau I believe, the system boots but the image is all weird can't see anything, blurry.
23:01<ejohb>if I go back to the older kernel its working fine :-) thanks for reading
23:01<somiaj>for bookworm using #debian-next
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23:05<ejohb>thanks somiaj :-)
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23:22<cowboypenguin>ejohb: I had some trouble with the proprietary driver. I think 5.14 has some growing pains on bookworm.
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---Logclosed Wed Sep 29 00:00:04 2021