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#debian IRC Logs for 2021-10-01

---Logopened Fri Oct 01 00:00:01 2021
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00:27<tomgie>Hey, I already tried my luck yesterday. I have an odd behaviour of CPU frequency between Buster and Bullseye. Any frequency reading is up to 200 MHz lower in Bullseye compared to Buster. I'd like to file a bug report but so far I failed to correctly triangulate the issue. So far I can rule out kernel version and governor. I'm testing both on a custom install and on a vanilla install. Crosstesting with Ubuntu 21.04 did not show the same behaviour
00:32<danielssan>tomgie: still rather late/early for most people :(
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00:38<tomgie>yeah I'm kind of limited to 6-14 CEST :D ... doesn't hurt trying
00:39<danielssan>tomgie: ugh, yeah those times are not the best
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00:40<danielssan>tomgie: but would also be very interested in the outcome, as I was planning on getting some of those servers (if we talk about the same hoster)
00:41<tomgie>as I said the problem is, I just don't know where to open the bug report, because there are so many possibilities
00:41<tomgie>well if you check my fqdn, you might see which hosting company I'm working at, so ... probably? :D
00:41<somiaj>have you tried the 4.19 kernel from buster?
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00:44<tomgie>let me link you my test results
00:44<Tj>tomgie: which architecture?
00:44<tomgie>x86_64 / amd64
00:45<Tj>tomgie: what tool are you using to 'read' the frequencies?
00:45<tomgie>tested on a Ryzen 5950X in this graph, bus the issue is present on all different CPUs in our lab, both Intel and AMD
00:46<tomgie>benchmark result show slightly lower performance matching the frequency offset
00:46<Tj>do you know how it obtains the raw data? presumably some kernel interface possibly averaged over time?
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00:47<tomgie>I believe it's a kernel interface
00:47<tomgie>turbostat is included in the kernel source and I already tried the latest version available in the source
00:48<tomgie>running a 5.10.x on buster does not show the same frequency drop
00:48<Tj>It'd be critical here to note the exact kernel versions (uname -r) for each of those since this is likely a change in the kernel - might be its 'corrected' an over-estimate in earlier kernels for example
00:49<Sqrt{not}>,f turbostat
00:49<Sqrt{not}>,file turbostat
00:49<judd>Search for turbostat in bullseye/amd64: linux-cpupower: usr/sbin/turbostat
00:49<tomgie>I tried a custom Kernel 5.13.1 on both buster and bullseye and I also tried 5.10 native to bullseye and bpo for buster
00:49<Tj>tomgie: so, for the exact same buster (fully updated?) a later kernel affects the result ?
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00:50<tomgie>no it does not, kernel does not change the result
00:50<tomgie>no matter which kernel - a bullseye install does always show the same lower frequency
00:50<Tj>sorry, crucial typo there! I did mean to type "does not"
00:50<rich>Good evening
00:51<tomgie>good morning :)
00:51<Tj>tomgie: in which case that tends to point to the libraries being used; possibly glibc and syscall handling if that's how it is done
00:51<rich>I'm in Las Vegas, how about you all?
00:52<tomgie>so which kind of next debugging steps would you propose?
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00:54<Tj>tomgie: looking at the source-code now; what Version does turbostat report itself as?
00:54<Tj>tomgie: on buster of course
00:55<tomgie>the version does not matter as well. I'm testing on the latest 21.05.04
00:55<tomgie>but both "stock" versions of buster and bullseye report the same data
00:55<Tj>It does to me since I'm looking at its source code
00:56<tomgie>oh okay. In that case, as I said 21.05.04 from the latest kernel tree and let me check the other versions
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00:58<tomgie>bullseye 20.09.30; buster 18.07.27
00:59<tomgie>buster 18.07.27 + 21.05.04 reported the same (expected) result and bullseye 20.09.30 + 21.05.04 the same "lower" result
01:00<Tj>tomgie: which statistic that turbostat can capture is your graph's CPU Frequency? E.g. Avg_MHz, Bzy_MHz, TSC_MHz
01:01<Tj>tomgie: I'm trying to ensure we know how that number is being collected so its path can be traced back
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01:01<tomgie>we're looking at Bzy_MHz as the "current" frequency and TSC_MHz as base frequency provided in the CPU specs
01:02<Tj>so is it 'current' (Bzy_MHz) in ?
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01:04<tomgie>btw thanks a lot for your help!
01:04<tomgie>I really appreciate it
01:04<Tj>in source that relates to the #define BIC_Bzy_MHz so now can trace how that gets collected
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01:07<Tj>Right. There are two possible values printed for that ( DO_BIC(BIC_Bzy_MHz) ) so initially thats the possibility to focus on. Possibly something in bullseye causes a change in which is used.
01:08<Tj>"has_base_hz" controls which calculation is used
01:10<tomgie>let me boot up one of my test machines and I'll modify the source to use either option and check the result, gimme a few min
01:10<Tj>that is only set in function probe_nhm_msrs() and only when genuine_intel and family==6
01:11<tomgie>well that rules it out, as I'm testing on an AMD
01:12<Tj>right, so already we've made progress :)
01:12<Tj>so we're dealing with the calculation " tsc / units * t->aperf / t->mperf / interval_float "
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01:14<Tj>tomgie: at this point I'd directly email Len Brown (the author) who is an Intel employee and possibly hasn't tested this tool on AMD silicon. There could possibly be a bug here related to that.
01:16<tomgie>Yeah but if that were the case the same issue should be present when using Ubuntu right?
01:17<tomgie>both latest 20.04 LTS and 21.04 show pretty much the same results as buster
01:18<Tj>it looks like it can depend on precise kernel runtime config; just found a source comment about jitter causing wrong readings because it has to use several separate syscalls to collect the data
01:20<Tj>I was looking at where t->aperf is read, which is there on line 2033
01:20<Tj>notice the additional comment on line 2065
01:20<Tj>oops, line 2054
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01:22<Tj>because the tool links in the standard library, and that would seem to be the only major difference in your tests, that's likely where any issue is arising. Len should understand where that tool might produce different results - unlikely we're going to figure it out
01:24<tomgie>alright, I'll try to message him and see if he can be of help, thanks! In the meantime me and my team will run further tests and see if there are other differences (e.g. in power consumption) as well
01:24<Tj>tomgie: you could look at the changelog for glibc between buster>bullseye and any Ubunt-specific patches (that remove Debian changes)
01:24<tomgie>I still believe it's not just a wrong reading
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01:25<Tj>tomgie: I'm not saying it is; I always try to ensure I understand precisely how the data is collected though. Thats just one avenue of investigation.
01:26<Tj>have you tried running the same version of turbstat that you use in buster, for the bullseye tests?
01:26<tomgie>yes, no change in result
01:27<Tj>I'm looking at the Ubuntu glibc patches now
01:28<tomgie>to give you some perspective: we are using a PXE boot environment to boot a custom Debian install which is being used to run lifecycle management and tests on our machine. I'm the one maintaining pretty much the whole thing. Starting with custom kernel and the actual image. I keep turbostat on the latest upstream version all the time. So initially this issue was discovered with 21.05.04 turbostat running on a custom 5.13.1 on buster and bullseye.
01:29<Tj>tomgie: sounds very much like our setup
01:30<Tj>looking at focal-updates (20.04)
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01:37<tomgie>what if I create a buster image, where I upgrade libc6 to bullseye and only the necessary packages which would need to be updated right away everything else stays on buster level ... would that provide a useful result?
01:37<Tj>between buster and Ubuntu focal-updates glibc 2.28.4 > 2.31.0
01:38<Tj>tomgie: it might but I'd think that'd break in nasty ways since depencies on exact libc version
01:38<tomgie>I'll try ... there is not a lot to be lost here :D
01:39<tomgie>not as bad as I thought
01:43<tomgie>Tj: how long will you still be around? The test will take roughly 20 min
01:45<Tj>another test you might try (if not already) is building turbostat yourself from source on each compiler (on buster (gcc-8) and bullseye (gcc-10) name them with the compiler version, and test each on both buster and bullseye (it could be a compiler related issue)
01:45<Tj>tomgie: its start of day for me, currently 06:45
01:46<tomgie>oh I should have pointed that out ... I'm using the same binary for buster and bullseye in our custom install. I believe it was compiled using gcc-10
01:47<tomgie>I've been using testing since last year for our kernel pipelines and related toolchain, so it must be gcc-10
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01:50<Tj>great - one less variable
01:52<Tj>tomgie: I'd assumed you were using the binary from the linux-cpupower package on each release
01:53<tomgie>to quote myself from 50 min ago: <tomgie> buster 18.07.27 + 21.05.04 reported the same (expected) result and bullseye 20.09.30 + 21.05.04 the same "lower" result
01:53<tomgie>we tested both :)
01:54<tomgie>my colleague just told me the buster gcc10 image booted without issues and the test is running now
01:54<Tj>I wish I had such simple issues to resolve :)
01:55<tomgie>oh believe me ... maintining the PXE setup is one of my simplier tasks
01:55<Tj>tomgie: have you tried looking at the raw numbers being collected to see if there's something you can spot in the patterns ?
01:56<tomgie>you mean the raw turbostat output? yeah we did
01:57<tomgie>may I ask what kind of issues you are dealing with on a daily base?
01:57<Tj>tomgie: I'm currently developing a replacement for Kubernetes that uses distro-only tooling and standard network protocols, so we spend a lot of time adding small bits of functionality across systemd and a few other core tools so it can be upstreamed and get into the distros
01:58<tomgie>oh that sounds quite interesting and challenging ... I wish you the best of luck!
01:59<tomgie>I was just told that it appears, that we are getting the same readings in buster-gcc-10, as we do in bullseye ... it seems you were right
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02:00<Tj>it's been fun - amazing how much k8s bits can be thrown away when you base on standard network protocols. E.g no NAT (we use IPv6 only), no load-balancer (we use ECMP+Anycast), no messing with iptables (we use eBPF/XDP )
02:00<Tj>tomgie: oh! so a compiler (flags) issue?
02:01<tomgie>possibly ... we're still using the same pre-compiled 21.05.04 turbostat binary and only the packages mentioned in the paste were changed from "regular" buster
02:01<Tj>tomgie: I seem to recall something about changing the default -O optimisation level at some point relatively recently (last 3 or so years)
02:02<tomgie>well I'm not firm with compiling gcc, but I can certainly try to compile from latest debian source myself with different options
02:03<Tj>tomgie: well, we can look at the build logs and see what compiler options were used
02:03<Tj>(for pre-built binaries at least)
02:03<tomgie>I guess it would also be helpful to compare these options to Ubuntu as well ... right?
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02:04<Tj>tomgie: indeed
02:04<Tj>oops, build logs for linux not glibc might help!
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02:07<tomgie>as I said before, the 5.13.1 used in our testing was build in bullseye using gcc10 ... so the kernel logs might not be usefull? or am I missing something here?
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02:08<Tj>tomgie: I'm trying to see if there's a difference in the compile flags of the distro packages
02:08<Tj>4.19.208 has "gcc -g -O2 -fstack-protector-strong -Wformat -Werror=format-security -Wall -Wdate-time -D_FORTIFY_SOURCE=2 -I/<<PKGBUILDDIR>>/tools/power/x86/turbostat -I/<<PKGBUILDDIR>>/debian/build/build-tools/tools/power/x86/turbostat -isystem /<<PKGBUILDDIR>>/debian/build/build-tools/include -I"/<<PKGBUILDDIR>>/tools/include"
02:08<Tj>-DMSRHEADER='"/<<PKGBUILDDIR>>/arch/x86/include/asm/msr-index.h"' -DINTEL_FAMILY_HEADER='"/<<PKGBUILDDIR>>/arch/x86/include/asm/intel-family.h"' -Wl,-z,relro /<<PKGBUILDDIR>>/tools/power/x86/turbostat/turbostat.c -o turbostat"
02:08<tomgie>ah ok
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02:10<Tj>I may just have lost/about to lose, my satellite connection
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02:13<tomgie>Tj: "buster_libc_[...]" is the new result from the modified buster image with gcc-10
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02:16<Tj>tomgie: am I seeing that correctly, that it is in the lower grouping?
02:16<tomgie>you can click the different names below the graph to hide/show
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02:16<tomgie>to clean up the graph a little bit
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02:17<Tj>not here I can't :)
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02:17<tomgie>then you are possibly blocking the script in the svg
02:18<Tj>block 3rd party sourcs by default
02:19<Tj>so we now have buster + glibc=2.31.13 with kernel v5.13.1 ?
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02:20<tomgie>yes that is 100% right
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02:22<Tj>tomgie: at this point it might be worthwhile comparing against other measurement tools that do it differently, just to see if they also show a buster>bullseye difference. if they don't you can be reasonably sure this is a synthetic change not a real change of performance and simply apply an adjustment to the results to reflect the difference (at least until you identify the root
02:23<Tj>tomgie: and I would definitely seek Len Brown's opinion and insights on this for turbostat
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02:27<tomgie>will do, I'll write a summary and see what he'll respond
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02:32<Tj>Certainly an interesting issue :)
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02:36<Tj>let us know the outcomes when its finally resolved
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02:36<tomgie>since I'm not really active on IRC usually, could you let me know your mail adress and I'll make sure to drop you an update :)
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02:50<Wulf>Good Morning! Why (as in: what are the reasons) are there no fixed packages for yet?
02:50<danielssan>Wulf: because chromium gets maintained by only 1 person, and he also has a life
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02:51<somiaj>outside of that cve being reserved, I can't find much info on what it is actually about either. Though chromium is just a huge mess to build, maybe the point release will help there
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02:53<danielssan>yeah, seems like for now, there is no info at all about it
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02:54<somiaj>Might be the chromium team has reserved it and will push out info once they have a fix available, so it is fairly clear why that hasn't been fixed anywhere yet.
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02:55<Wulf>some "use after free" bug with exploits in the wild.
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03:05<user01>hi is there anyway to join now from hexchat debian now with this certificate issue?
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03:06<Wulf>But I guess with that little information it's not easy to patch older versions
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03:06<Wulf>user01: Hello. What cert issue?
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03:07<user01>I'm guessing this "Let's Encrypt root CA expiry" thing is why i cant login there
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03:07<user01>i can login on web but not from hexchat on debian
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03:16<sussudio>user01: have you tried running dpkg-reconfigure ca-certificates and saying yes at the beginning?
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03:18<Wulf>user01: what server are you trying to connect to? What's the error message? What debian version are you using?
03:18<umlaeute>is there a way to upgrade a single package from the cmdline (without aptitude's TUI)?
03:19<umlaeute>'apt upgrade' doesn't take any <pkg>
03:19<Wulf>umlaeute: apt install foobar
03:19<Wulf>user01: port 6697?
03:19<umlaeute>i somehow have the impression that that would remove the 'automatically installed' flag from foobar
03:19<Wulf>umlaeute: it does
03:19<sussudio>umlaeute: dpkg -i package.deb ?
03:20<sussudio>umlaeute: don't do that with non-official packages, though.
03:20<Wulf>umlaeute: you can later fix that with apt-mark
03:21<umlaeute>sussudio: no; i'd like to *upgrade* a package from the repositories; not install a local package
03:21<umlaeute>Wulf: urgh
03:21<Wulf>user01: do you have /etc/ssl/certs/ISRG_Root_X1.pem on your system?
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03:28<Wulf>umlaeute: There is --mark-auto
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03:29<umlaeute>which, iiuc, will mark any package processed as automatically installed.
03:29<umlaeute>what i do want however is: upgrade the package
03:29<umlaeute>i do not want to change it's automatically-installed flag
03:30<Wulf>umlaeute: I just tried and it appears like it's doing the right thing. E.g. don't change manually installed packages to auto packages.
03:30<umlaeute>oh. that would be great.
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03:30<umlaeute>i think i also tried it (on unstable) and it did not work, but i might have made an error.
03:31<umlaeute>and on stable the only package that is currently pending on my machines is 'tzdata' which is 'manually' anyhow.
03:31<dpkg>#debian-next is the channel for testing/unstable support on the OFTC network (, *not* on If you get "Cannot join #debian-next (Channel is invite only)." it means you did not read it's on See also and
03:31<umlaeute>omg, i used the "unstable" word on this channel.
03:31<umlaeute>i'm talking about Debian/bullseye aka stable.
03:32<umlaeute>i mentioned that i did something on unstable. i don't think i should go away.
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03:33<umlaeute>i wonder though how Wulf tested it.
03:34<Wulf>umlaeute: unstable system, there are always packages that need upgrading. apt-mark to show status of some, then apt install --mark-auto to test
03:34<umlaeute>:-) !debian-next
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03:36<dpkg>Shiny New Shit Syndrome is a serious disorder, which usually breaks out into an epidemic every time something new is released. If you have SNS, ask me about <backports> and <ssb>; these are better options than upgrading to <testing> because it is a <moving target>.
03:36<umlaeute>is that directed at me?
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03:40<user01>Wulf, let me check
03:43<user01>Wulf, yes i have that one
03:44<umlaeute>Wulf: ok I checked again, and it seems you are right: "--mark-auto" seems to do the right thing, iff the package is actually upgraded.
03:45<user01>that looks like a weird cert name: NetLock_Arany_=Class_Gold=_Főtanúsítvány.pem
03:46<user01>oh Hungary
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03:46<umlaeute>'apt install --mark-auto <pkg>' is not idempotent though: running it again it might mark the package as manually-installed(!?); i guess because there's nothing to "upgrade"
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03:47<umlaeute>it's a bit weird though that '--mark-auto' whould mark a package as "manual", butthat is what i got.
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03:47<user01>sussudio, ok i ran said yes -- will test
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03:52<user01>sussudio, nope still fails: * Capabilities acknowledged: account-notify away-notify chghost extended-join multi-prefix sasl cap-notify* Authenticating via SASL as user01 (PLAIN)* SASL authentication failed * SASL authentication aborted
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03:53<user01>sussudio, you saw on the webpage that they specifically mention hexchat being effected?
03:53<sussudio>user01: i don't use hexchat
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03:53<user01>sussudio, well the webchat works for me, hexchat doesnt
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03:54<user01>sussudio, and i suspect it is that CA issue
03:56<sussudio>you could always just use port 6667
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03:58<umlaeute>ah, that weird behaviour of _apt install --mark-auto' is #973260
03:58<judd>Bug in apt (open): «apt --mark-auto build-dep hello sets packages as manually installed»; severity: normal; opened: 2020-10-27; last modified: 2020-10-27.
04:01<umlaeute>however, i found that i can use 'aptitude upgrade <pkg>' (which is "not TUI"-enough for me, sorry if that wasn't clear)
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06:56<lxsameer>hey folks, i'm looking for the python3-apt repository, do you know which one is the official one on salsa?
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07:30<oty>hey ! How would someone check automatically if "the debian distro I'm using has no security update anymore" ? I wish to make a script that'd send a notif automatically when the time comes ~
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07:37<danielssan>oty: I would do something like apt list --upgradable | grep \-security and if the output is empty, it has no security updates
07:37<bremner>but that is just _currently_, right?
07:38<danielssan>ahh okay, i guess i misunderstood
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07:39<danielssan>hm debian-security-support checks only if your packages get updates, not when they run out :/
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07:52<bremner>I thought the EOL should be announced on debian-security-announce, but searching I did not find it for stretch
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07:59<bremner>maybe stretch hasn't been eoled by the security team?
08:01<danielssan>bremner: stretch lts was eol 2020-07-06 but elts is till 22022-06-30 so maybe that's why?
08:01<danielssan>oh again, misread, lts is till 2022-06-30 :/
08:01<bremner>danielssan: debian-security-announce is explicitely not lts though
08:02<ansgar>danielssan: stretch lts started 2020-07-06.
08:02<danielssan>yeah after reading it again, that's what I also figured :/
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08:03<bremner>I guess debian-security support stopped when LTS started, but I don't know how/where that is announced
08:05<ansgar>Meybe they forgot :> For Jessie there was at least
08:06<danielssan>here they announce end of jessie support on lts-announce, but nothing of stretch lts
08:07<bremner>yes, I found the jessie announcement
08:07<danielssan>ahh they announce it basically in the end of support for oldoldstable
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08:26<ansgar>bremner: Ah, and for Stretch there was
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08:39<bremner>oty: I don't know the answer to your question. The most complete information I found is, but it is not really suitable as a data source for notifications.
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08:44<mipo>i tried multiple times to install debian 11 in UEFI mode: i used an usb stick prepared from iso and did a boot in UEFI mode, then i installed everything by the book - at the end I get this message at boot: Error <some number> : No operating system found. Press any key to retry a reboot.
08:44<mipo>it works fine in standard BIOS mode, so I may ask, is there any special action after install to enable UEFI boot from disk?
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08:47<jkc>mipo: How did you prepare the USB medium?
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09:01<jkc>mipo: It would help to know.
09:03<amacater_>mipo - the quickest and best way to prepare a USB stick is just to dd the .iso file to the stick IMHO.
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09:03<amacater_>You do have to be sure to know which device is the stick :)
09:04<amacater_>Debian images are iso-hybrid so will "just work" if directly written to the raw stick
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09:06<mipo>jkc> i got the .iso file for netinstall, used cp command to a non mounted usb stick once, then once i used dd command
09:07<danielssan>mipo: do you get any errors while installing grub during install?
09:07<mipo>jkc> i searched the docs for UEFI install, nothing special there, or maybe i missed it :)
09:07<mipo>danielssan> no errors, the install went perfectly fine
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09:08<danielssan>mipo: i guess the only way would be to chroot into the install and reinstall grub
09:09<mipo>danielssan> i used graphical install, do i need to use expert install maybe?
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09:10<bremner>oty: I learned there is a package distro-info-data with the EOL dates in it. Also available under
09:10<danielssan>mipo: hm, repair (in advanced) and then it should find your install
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09:11<danielssan>bremner: nice find
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09:11<mipo>danielssan> do you think there is a perfomance drop if i use BIOS mode instead of UEFI mode?
09:12<danielssan>mipo: there is none, it's only how you boot the system itself. just be careful as intel is on a march to extinct bios/legacy mode (even turning off features on newer cpus)
09:13<mipo>i will stay on BIOS mode then
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09:15<amacater_>mipo - No, _don't_ stay on BIOS mode: UEFI is sometimes useful because hardware ties into it.
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09:18<danielssan>i would also rather stay on uefi, figuring out why it won't boot. at some point you _have to_ move on to uefi, and it's better now trying to understand it, rather than later
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09:18<hope>hi I want support about Debian 11
09:19<dpkg>If you have a question, just ask! For example: "I have a problem with ___; I'm running Debian version ___. When I try to do ___ I get the following output ___. I expected it to do ___." Don't ask if you can ask, if anyone uses it, or pick one person to ask. We're all volunteers; make it easy for us to help you. If you don't get an answer try a few hours later or on See <smart questions><errors>.
09:19<hope>I am using Debian 11 LXDE live ISO image with persistence
09:19<hope>I am using / union option
09:19<hope>in persistence.conf file
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09:19<hope>however, when I tried to load ATI graphics card, it gives me error :
09:20<Tj>mipo: what is the make/model of the PC?
09:20<hope>I am using desktop computer with Intel CPU
09:20<hope>not laptop. I assemble all part myself
09:21<dpkg>The enter key is not a substitute for punctuation. Hitting enter unnecessarily makes it difficult to follow what you are saying. Consider using ',', '. ', ';', '...', '---', or ':' instead. If you hit enter too often, you will be autokicked for flooding the channel.
09:21<danielssan>hope: and what Tj asked wasn't directed to you
09:21<mipo>Tj> Lenovo Thinkcentre M77 desktop, 1990RZ2 model
09:22<Tj>mipo: I ask because systems with an Insyde H2O UEFI firmware have an annoying 'quirk' where you have to manually 'Trust' the boot-loader of a non-Windows installation. Wondering if you're hitting that
09:23<mipo>Tj> don't know, i'm not an UEFI expert, i have nothing in BIOS menu to modify settings, i did just a plain install after UEFI boot and no success
09:24<Tj>mipo: at power-on/start-up there should be a hotkey you can press to get into firmware setup
09:25<Tj>mipo: this may be what you referred to as "BIOS menu"
09:25<mipo>Tj> there is, <F1>
09:25<mipo>but menu has nothing related to UEFI or Secure Boot !
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09:26<Tj>mipo: so, first check that. Report the brand/version of the firmware (usually in the title-bar or some info section)
09:26<mipo>so i expected i need some extra modification for some partitions maybe, after install
09:26<Tj>mipo: no, if installer started in UEFI mode that's all that is required
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09:26<danielssan>i wonder if the device is so old that the implementation is just crap
09:26<Tj>mipo: but, if firmware is refusing to recognise the boot entry added to its OS list then it would cause this
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09:28<mipo>Tj> somehow Lenovo is well known for nonstandard options in BIOS, so maybe I'm stuck with this
09:29<mipo>Tj> at the next hardware upgrade i will try again to install and check
09:30<mipo>danielssan> the model was out in 2015 i think, so it is quite old :)
09:32<Tj>mipo: reading the manual suggests it does not have UEFI at all
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09:34<Tj>mipo: and having downloaded the latest firmware update, it only contains an AMI BIOS, so no UEFI
09:34<danielssan>Tj: idk i see a uefi bios update for that device
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09:34<Tj>danielssan: where?
09:35<mipo>Tj> when i press <F12> to choose boot, i get two options : USB legacy boot and UEFI legacy boot - even Debian install reports either BIOS or UEFI starts
09:36<amacater_>So UEFI legacy boot
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09:37<amacater_>You may find that there is an option for UEFI _or_ legacy boot in which case you want UEFI - but there should be an option. If you're booting from USB stick, you may see the same stick come up two different ways in your boot option order - maybe F12 to choose boot device
09:37<Tj>danielssan: yes, saw that, but been looking inside the ISO. the update is a DOS boot, and uses AMIflasher... but the actual does have EFI_* variables in it
09:38<Tj>danielssan: mipo so it does have UEFI support of some kind
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09:39<danielssan>Tj: yeah well, I still assume that the implementation is not that great. it could be that the efi file needs to be a certain name (see also asus) or maybe it internally complains about mbr disks. there is always something with those older uefis
09:39<amacater_>You notice the difference because the UEFI boot splash has an almost picture in picture quality :)
09:40<amacater_>UEFI will work with "mbr" formatted hard disks but if the disk is big enough you may want to format it as GPT anyway.
09:40<mipo>amacater_ : no need to, since debian first screen reports what mode is
09:41<Tj>mipo: can you boot the PC with the Debian liveISO so we can get some info from it?
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09:41<Tj>mipo: we can use 'efibootmgr' to check if the firmware accepted the OS being added
09:41<mipo>Tj> i am on _that_ pc right now, here, but it is installed used BIOS legacy :)
09:42<Tj>mipo: oh, and doh :(
09:42<danielssan>amacater_: did you had the pleasure to deal with early uefi implementations? it _should_ work with mbr, but i saw a lot of mbs which couldn't deal with it
09:42<mipo>Tj> but i can reinstall, no problem, just give me some hints, i will write them down and check
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09:43<amacater_>danielssan - I've dealt with buggy asus - my oldest Lenovo here is from about 2010, so yes
09:43<mipo>Tj> maybe i should use manual partitioning and not automatic at install time?
09:43<mipo>amacater_: did you use UEFI install on that 2010 lenovo?
09:43<amacater_>mipo: Use automatic, it really won't hurt. I'm assuming there's nothing on the disk you want to keep
09:44<amacater_>mipo - Yes, it's next to me, now running Bullseye :)
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09:44<amacater_>x130 - I think it's about that old.
09:44<mipo>amacater_: boot UEFI mode, simple install and that's all ?
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09:44<amacater_>mipo: Yes
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09:45<amacater_>Actually a bit later, it might be 2012
09:46<mipo>one more thing, maybe it helps: at the boot slection device, I get two options for USB, BIOS legacy and UEFI, but i _don't_ get that 2 options for the fresh install of debian disk !
09:47<mipo>somehow, the UEFI is not able to see that my fresh install of debian disk is bootable
09:47<Tj>mipo: if you can boo the liveISO installer in UEFI mode, and get network up, you can get on IRC from there and we can investigate
09:47<amacater_>How did you write the debian disk - is this physical media?
09:47<mipo>amacater_: yes, hardisk inside my pc
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09:48<mipo>Tj> what do you mean? start the pc as a livedisk without install?
09:48<amacater_>So - if you overwrite the install that's there - use a USB with the .iso copied on and boot from USB
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09:49<mipo>amacater_: i did that already many times, but i get that boot error: no operating system found
09:49<amacater_>So - if I write a Debian netinstall / DVD to a USB stick, plug it in, boot laptop with F12, I get to install Debian.
09:49<amacater_>How did you write the .iso to the stick?
09:50<mipo>amacater_: cp , then dd
09:50<mipo>tried both methods, they work
09:50<amacater_>get hold of the .iso file - using dd direct to the stick, it should "just boot"
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09:51<mipo>amacater_: i think you got it wrong: the usb stick boots fine, the inside disk will not boot from it !
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09:52<Tj>mipo: yes, exactly, start the Debian LiveISO in UEFI mode so you can use the tools to investigate
09:52<mipo>does it matter if my model of pc is AMD based and not Intel?
09:52<Tj>mipo: no, makes no difference
09:53<amacater_>mipo: No, I had both - and the oldest computer I was using was 2011 x121
09:53<mipo>Tj> my disk in installed in BIOS legacy, so what to investigate?
09:54<mipo>Tj> maybe reinstall in UEFI, then do liveboot and investigate?
09:54<Tj>mipo: that is no good; PC needs to boot in UEFI mode, so boot the liveISO to desktop (not direct install) and then get on IRC and we can use the tools to investigate
09:54<mipo>Tj> ok, let me do it
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09:54<Tj>mipo: at this point it doesn't matter if there is a UEFI install on hard-disk - we're aiming to check if the firmware properly exposes a boot menu to the OS
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10:06<mipo>Tj> i need to prepare a livedisk, i thought the install image has live option :(
10:07<Tj>mipo: oops!
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10:07<mipo>Tj> yeah, it takes some time , never used live until now on this distribution, used to ubuntu and fedora, you can start live
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10:15<hope>can I ask my question now?
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10:16<mipo>Tj> ready
10:16<mipo>Tj> i'm on live setup, UEFI boot
10:17<hope>I am trying to update kernel after loading firmware-amd-graphics package by using update-initramfs -u comamnd but it gives error : I: update-initramfs is disabled (live system is running on read-only media).
10:17<Tj>mipo: :) show us "efibootmgr -v | nc 9999"
10:17<hope>I am using live Debial 11 LXDE iso which is mounted on USB
10:17<Tj>hope: you cannot update the initramfs on a live image, its a read-only ISO9660 file-system
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10:19<hope>but I am not using iso file?
10:19<Tj>hope: but you just said you are!
10:19<hope>I copied all the files from iso to an image partition /dev/sda2
10:19<mipo>Tj> bash: efibootmgr: command not found / bash: nc: command not found
10:19<hope>I am using extlinux to boot from /dev/sda1
10:19<Tj>mipo: ah, are you 'root' ("sudo -i") ?
10:20<jmcnaught>hope: why not do a normal Debian (non-live) to the USB stick?
10:20<hope>can I do it ?
10:20<hope>how ?
10:20<jmcnaught>hope: same way you install to an internal drive, just select the appropriate drive in the partitioning stage of the installer.
10:21<Tj>hope: but you'd need TWO USB devices - one with the installer, the other the target to install to
10:21<mipo>Tj> -bash: nc: command not found, -bash: efibootmgr: command not found
10:21<hope>ok ! can I do it using using calamares ?
10:21<Tj>mipo: what exactly are you using there!? what Live ISO ?
10:21<mipo>Tj> one from
10:22<Tj>mipo: but /which/ one precisely?
10:22<mjt>hm. What was the filesystem used by various routers and other small deivices, which is mostly compressed-readonly but writable and new files can be integrated back to the compressed-readonly form? Or am I dreaming?
10:23<mipo>Tj>, the gnome flavour
10:23<mipo>Tj> debian-live-11.0.0-amd64-gnome.iso
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10:25<mipo>mjt: squahfs, by openwrt?
10:25<Tj>mipo: let me play with it in a virtual amchine
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10:25<jmcnaught>hope: I am not as experienced with calamares as with debian-installer but I do not see why not.
10:26<mipo>mjt> *squashfs
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10:26<mipo>Tj> what are you using as a VM? on what system, debian? :)
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10:28<Tj>mipo: install the required tools: "apt install efibootmgr netcat-openbsd"
10:28<hope>I understood. If I calamares could not succeed to install, is there any debian support page which shows how to install normal Debian to USB stick? can you send me a link?
10:28<Tj>mipo: then you can re-run the data collection command
10:28<mipo>Tj> install where?
10:28<Tj>mipo: in the live boot
10:28<mjt>mipo: I use squashfs here quite heavily. I thought there was something else. Dunno.
10:30<mipo>Tj> i use openbsd too :)
10:31<Tj>mjt: I suspect you were thinking of yaffs
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10:31<mipo>hope> there is nothing special, the same tutorial but you need to choose the USB disk from options
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10:32<Tj>mipo: so, there is an entry "Boot0005* debian HD(1,GPT,a9ce7f90-838f-49c0-9346-23cfc547435a,0x800,0x100000)/File(\EFI\debian\shimx64.efi)"
10:32<mipo>Tj> yes, Fedora too, i tried that and no success
10:33<hope>thanks to all !
10:33<Tj>mipo: but, your BIOS install likely wiped the EFI system partition from the disk. show us " ( lsblk; blkid ) | nc 9999 "
10:35<amacater_>mipo: If you do an install with standard install media and delete whatever's on your internal hard disk when it comes to the partitioning stage, then take guided partitioning, it should work
10:35<mipo>Tj> i expect UEFI install be able to write it again
10:36<mipo>amacater_: how to delete, i am not asked for that
10:37<Tj>mipo: right, so as I thought the original EFI-SP was wiped but the menu entries remain
10:37<Tj>mipo: do you want to re-install now whilst we tag along?
10:37<amacater_>mipo: Go through the installation, at the partitioning step, you can delete any existing partitions and select / or just select guided partitioning.
10:37<mipo>Tj> sure, but i need to create the netinstall USB again
10:37<amacater_>I would NOT recommend using calamares
10:37<amacater_>on the live install
10:37<Tj>mipo: why? you can install from this Live ?
10:38<mipo>Tj> can I?
10:38<mipo>Tj> how to start it then? run as a root some script?
10:39<mipo>Tj> what action in installer wipes my useful UEFI entry?
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10:40<mipo>amacater_: i did that already, guided partitioning, no luck
10:42<Tj>mipo: in the Gnome activities menu, first icon
10:42<mipo>Tj> ok, started
10:43<Tj>mipo: wow! wants 10GiB minimum - sod that! Killed!
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10:43<mipo>Tj> Calamares installer for Debian 11
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10:43<mipo>Tj> 10GiB on what? DRAM?
10:44<Tj>mipo: do a default/auto install to sda but don't reboot at the end, and we'll check the installed system
10:44<Tj>mipo: 10GiB of storage minimum
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10:44<mipo>Tj> my disk has 320Gb
10:45<Tj>mipo: I don't care how much storage there is; I do care about an OS that requires a ridiculous minium just to install itself :)
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10:45<mipo>Tj> so what i do, continue with this Calamares?
10:46<Tj>mipo: yes, let it use all the disk, and just carry on to the end of the installer
10:46<amacater_>mipo: NO :) Reboot and use the default Debian installer from live. The only problem is that that takes memory and also spends a lot of time at the end of the install deleting stuff used in the install. Straightforward netinst is easier, maybe.
10:46<Tj>mipo: but don't tell it to reboot
10:46<amacater_>Or follow Tj
10:46<Tj>amacater_: we're trying to diagnose the UEFI issue
10:47<mipo>Tj> erase disk option?
10:47<Tj>mipo: Yes
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10:48<Tj>mipo: that'll remove everything from sda and start with a clean layout
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10:52<scorpion2185[m]>so it seems that obmenu is deprecated there are new versions what is better?
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10:58<bremner>cannot parse that sentence
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11:00<sussudio>scorpion2185[m]: are you throwing shit through google translate or are these just random words
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11:02<mipo>Tj> installation ready, rerun commands?
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11:03<Tj>mipo: OK, let's collect some more info: " (lsblk; blkid; efibootmgr -v) | nc 9999 "
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11:04<somiaj>,i obmenu
11:04<judd>No package named 'obmenu' was found in bullseye/amd64.
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11:05<somiaj>scorpion2185[m]: I would direct your question to openbox support/users. They will know what is best (though they may just suggest using $EDITOR on some config file)
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11:06<somiaj>scorpion2185[m]: it appears that obmenu is python2, which is no longer supported, and upstream is dead, so they didn't port it. You could if you wanted install python2 (not recommended) and the depends to get it to work. I would suggest just editing the menu with $EDITOR
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11:08<mipo>Tj> sda1, sda2, sda3 vs old sda1, sda2, sda5
11:09<Tj>mipo: looks correct, the partition UUIDs match, and the boot-order has put Debian first
11:09<scorpion2185[m]>I think that one of them (or another) should be packaged
11:09<mipo>Tj> reboot?
11:09<Tj>mipo: "BootOrder: 0005"
11:09<Tj>mipo: not yet
11:10<Tj>mipo: seeing as you said it failed a few times want to be sure this is correct
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11:10<somiaj>scorpion2185[m]: if there are new ports, then it requires someone to take the time to put it into debian. You can file an RFP bug, but most likely unless you are going to do it yourself, you can install these python3 ports locally
11:10<somiaj>scorpion2185[m]: and are you going to package it?
11:10<Tj>mipo: " mkdir -p /target; mount /dev/sda2 /target "
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11:11<mipo>Tj> ok
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11:11<mipo>Tj> ls /target ?
11:11<Tj>mipo: then " ( cat /target/etc/fstab ) | nc 9999 "
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11:12<scorpion2185[m]>maybe, but first time. I ll ask in some openbox channel to find what is the best/most used
11:13<Tj>mipo: " mount -t devtmpfs udev /target/dev; mount -t proc proc /target/proc; mount -t sysfs sysfs /target/sys "
11:14<mipo>Tj> done
11:14<Tj>mipo: then " chroot /target mount --all "
11:14<Tj>mipo: should jsut come back to the shell prompt with no errors
11:14<mipo>Tj> done
11:14<Tj>mipo: good; now " find /target/boot -ls | nc 9999 "
11:15<mjt>/dev/remote/hands :)
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11:16<Tj>mipo: " cat /target/boot/efi/EFI/Debian/grub.cfg | nc 9999 "
11:17<Tj>mipo: and finally! " cat /target/boot/grub/grub.cfg | nc 9999 "
11:18<Tj>mipo: everything looks correct; reboot time
11:19<mipo>Tj> is my internal hdd partitioned as MBR or GPT ?
11:19<Tj>mipo: GPT
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11:19<krumelmonster>Hi, I have a working setup to pxe boot and preseed debian netboot installer and it works in legacy bios mode. I also did figure out how to make it boot the debian-installer/amd64/bootnetx64.efi in efi mode. The Problem however is, that there will be an interactive grub prompt where I'd have to press enter to install. How can I set a timeout for the grub install choice?
11:20<mipo>Tj> if it works this time, does it mean that netinstall is broken at UEFI setup?
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11:20<Tj>mipo: possibly
11:20<mipo>Tj: ok, rebooting
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11:21<mipo>Tj: since you spent so much time with my problem, do you think you can report is somehow ?
11:21<mipo>Tj: or maybe you are involved in debian dev?
11:21<Tj>mipo: we'd need to know how exactly it broke
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11:22<Tj>if this was a widespread issue there'd be bug reports and others asking for help about it. It could be a PC issue for your PC's firmware
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11:22<mipo>Tj: thank you, i am rebooting now, if not working, i will netinstall and use old BIOS
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11:23<Tj>mipo: you can use the liveISO to re-install you know
11:23<Tj>mipo: it can boot in both BIOS and UEFI modes
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11:30<mipo>Tj> mission failed, i get a single text at boot time, then all is stuck : GRUB
11:31<Tj>mipo: you get GRUB ?
11:31<mipo>Tj: yes, just the text GRUB and that's it
11:31<Tj>mipo: that suggests the system is booting in BIOS mode, not UEFI then, because that will have come from the grub-pc boot-sector installed for MBR earlier
11:32<Tj>mipo: I'd suggests revisiting the PC's firmware setup and carefully examining the options that control boot orering and selection
11:32<mipo>Tj: i will look again in BIOS menu, maybe there is something to steer it in UEFI mode
11:32<Tj>mipo: hang on
11:32<Tj>mipo: are you currently booted with the LiveISO again?
11:33<mipo>Tj: yes, UEFI mode
11:33<Tj>mipo: OK, let's check something first. Confirm that "GRUB" string came from where I think it did
11:33<Tj>mipo: "sudo -i"
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11:33<Tj>mipo: does "which hexdump" report a path?
11:34<mipo>Tj: yes
11:34<Tj>mipo: good. let's reinstall netcat: " apt install netcat-openbsd "
11:34<mipo>Tj: done
11:35<Tj>mipo: then show us the MBR boot sector 0 with " hexdump -C -n 512 /dev/sda | nc 9999 "
11:35<Tj>mipo: yes! you can see the GRUB string at offset 00180
11:35<mipo>Tj: can you understand hex coding?
11:35<Tj>mipo: let's wipe that out entirely
11:36<Tj>mipo: it could be that the Lenovo firmware, if it sees an MBR, ignore UEFI modes so we'll wipe that
11:36<Tj>mipo: " dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/sda bs=512 count=1 "
11:36<mipo>Tj: but my disk in GPT now
11:37<Tj>mipo: sector 0 is reserved for MBR; GPT doesn't over-write it
11:37<Tj>mipo: GPT also supports a hybrid MBR partition table so both can be read
11:37<Tj>mipo: GPT installs to sectors 1-33
11:37<mipo>Tj: ok, done
11:38<Tj>mipo: do this again you should see all zeros " hexdump -C -n 512 /dev/sda "
11:38<mipo>Tj: how do you know so much about disks, do you develop in the area?
11:38<Tj>mipo: I wrote the book :)
11:38<mipo>Tj: what book?
11:38<Tj>mipo: it's an English expression, but also
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11:39<Tj>mipo: good, you've wiped the MBR so it cannot influence the firmware. You should try another reboot
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11:41<mipo>Tj: your base URL has nothing on it, so i should remember the links
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11:41<Tj>mipo: yes, it's a work in progress
11:42<mipo>Tj: do you develop on debian too?
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11:51<mipo>Tj: fail again, Error 1892: No Operating System found ....
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11:52<Tj>mipo: OK, so it is definitely the firmware booting in BIOS not UEFI mode from that hard disk
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11:53<mipo>Tj: i guess i need to find a way to force it in UEFI mode then
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11:54<Tj>mipo: as it is UEFI and we know it will boot in UEFI mode from removable media, then it must be something in the firmware. Have you tried, at boot-time, pressing the key that brings up the manual boot-device-selection menu, and seeing if "Debian" is listed, or if HD (UEFI) at least
11:54<mipo>Tj: when i boot from USB i can see Legacy and UEFI modes, but this is _not_ possible for the internal hdd
11:55<Tj>mipo: you're in the LiveISO right now?
11:55<mipo>Tj: yes
11:55<Tj>mipo: there's something we can try; install GRUB to the removable media path
11:55<Tj>mipo: I just checked our previous termbins and it doesn't currently have that, so it may be a workaround at least
11:55<Tj>mipo: start a terminal, "sudo -i"
11:56<mipo>Tj: done
11:56<Tj>mipo: " mkdir /target; mount /dev/sda2 /target "
11:56<Tj>mipo: " mount -t devtmpfs udev /target/dev; mount -t proc proc /target/proc; mount -t sysfs sysfs /target/sys "
11:57<Tj>mipo: "mount -t devpts devpts /target/dev/pts "
11:57<mipo>Tj: special device /dev/sda2 does not exists - good Lord
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11:57<Tj>mipo: " apt install netcat-openbsd "
11:57<Wulf>What's the process to get a packet into bullseye-backports? Should I open a bug report against the package?
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11:58<mipo>Tj: done
11:59<scorpion2185[m]>is there an openbox channel?
11:59<Tj>mipo: " ( lsblk; blkid ) | nc 9999 "
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11:59<Wulf>scorpion2185[m]: /msg chanserv help list
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12:00<mipo>Tj: so /dev/sda was not GPT afterall ?
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12:01<Tj>mipo: it was
12:02<mipo>Tj: maybe it is not the right moment, but i will ask anyway: wtf do they needed UEFI ?
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12:04<Tj>mipo: it prevents OS boot-loaders from over-writing each other - they co-exist alongside each other in the EFI system partition so dual/multi boot works correctly
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12:05<Tj>mipo: lots of other reasons too but that is the primary user-facing benefit
12:05<amacater_>mipo: It is quite neat - if you get the order right, it means that eg Windows and Debian co-exist nicely :)
12:05<Tj>mipo: another major benefit is the OS can call functions in the firmware in protected mode
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12:06<Tj>mipo: OK, let's do some more digging I ma be able to help you recover that without a reinstall. Need to check the damage first :)
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12:06<Tj>mipo: " hexdump -n 17408 -C /dev/sda | nc 9999 "
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12:08<user__unluckyuser>wtf happend to 2600net_
12:09<amacater_>user__unluckyuser: Don't know, but you've landed in a Debian support channel on OFTC here.
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12:11<Tj>mipo: did we lose you?
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12:13<mipo>Tj: no, just ingested some food :) , to be able to continue, i am on this since 13:00
12:13<mipo>Tj: don't worry, i can reinstall, no problem to recover, today i am on the 4th installation
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12:14<Tj>mipo: it'd be best if we find out what went wrong
12:14<Tj>mipo: this will give me a clue " hexdump -n 17408 -C /dev/sda | nc 9999 "
12:14<mipo>Tj: oh, ok then
12:15<mipo>Tj: i guess that zero overwrite
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12:17<Tj>mipo: OK, there's something very wrong there, with the installer. It should have wiped the disk and set GPT partitioning but it didn't, it used MBR, *BUT* it thought it was using GPT and set that in the firmware boot menu
12:17<Tj>mipo: either that, or something in the firmware is 'protecting' a previous partitioning scheme!
12:17<mipo>Tj: Bevious?
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12:18<mipo>Tj: i told you there is no step in installed where i am asked to choose between MBR and GPT
12:18<Tj>mipo: there shouldn't be that's the point
12:19<mipo>Tj: in that liveISO install , i was able to see EFI [some picture] MBR, but i wasn;t able to modify it
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12:22<Tj>mipo: sda has got the GPT header and shows 3 partitions but the OS isn't reporting them - this is ULTRA weird
12:22<Tj>mipo: I can /see/ the partitions in the termbin you reported just now
12:24<mipo>Tj: so you say there is no relation between MBR and GPT sectors on the disk, i mean we could kill MBR and GPT will not suffer from it
12:24<Tj>mipo: the primary GUID partition table (GPT) starts at sector 1 (0 based counting) with the magic "EFI PART", then starting at offset 0400 there are partition entries every 128 bytes (0400, 0480, 0500) which are the 3 partitions created by the installer
12:25<Tj>mipo: you can see all that in your termbin
12:25<mipo>Tj: yes, i was guessing that, but i didn;t know about MBR/GPT coexistece, i presumed there can be only one
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12:27<mipo>Tj: if i am right, my sda is shown by the OS like it is not partitioned at all
12:28<Tj>mipo: correct, which would make me think the kernel failed to include/load the EFI (GPT) partition module code!
12:28<Tj>mipo: do you have " which gdisk " ?
12:28<mipo>Tj: again, not even UEFI firmware is able to see the disk as bootable
12:28<mipo>Tj: yes , i do
12:29<Tj>mipo: good, let's see what it thinks: " gdisk -l /dev/sda | nc 9999 "
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12:32<Tj>mipo: so that tells us the layout is fine; don't worry about the "corrupt MBR"
12:33<mipo>Tj: just an default case for a selection in code maybe
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12:35<Tj>mipo: let's write a protective MBR " sgdisk --hybrid EE /dev/sda "
12:35<Tj>mipo: then recheck with " gdisk -l /dev/sda " and it should look OK
12:36<mipo>Tj: done successfully
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12:36<Tj>mipo: does " lsblk " report correctly yet?
12:36<mipo>Tj: MBR: protective
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12:37<Tj>mipo: if not, do " kpartx -a /dev/sda " then check again with " lsblk "
12:37<Tj>mipo: phew! it's recovered
12:38<mipo>Tj: ok, reboot time?
12:38<Tj>mipo: hang on!
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12:38<Tj>mipo: let me scroll back and figure out what I was going to ask you to do at the point we discovered the partitions were missing!
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12:39<Tj>mipo: oh yes, install the UEFI removable media path boot-loader
12:39<Tj>mipo: " mkdir -p /target; mount /dev/sda2 /target "
12:39<mipo>Tj: done
12:40<Tj>mipo: " mount -t devtmpfs udev /target/dev; mount -t proc proc /target/proc; mount -t sysfs sysfs /target/sys; mount -t devpts devpts /target/dev/pts "
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12:40<mipo>Tj: done
12:40<mipo>Tj: just to check, sda is MBR now
12:40<Tj>mipo: now we're going to (re)install grub core image bootloader, and have it copied to the removable media path (/EFI/BOOT/BOOTX64.EFI)
12:41<Tj>mipo: " chroot /target grub-install --verbose --force-extra-removable |& tee /tmp/grub-install.log "
12:41<Tj>mipo: this will generate a lot of logging. Once it is done " cat /tmp/grub-install.log | nc 9999 "
12:42<Tj>mipo: sda is not MBR, it just has a protective MBR; it is GPT
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12:42<Tj>mipo: oops, my mistake! " chroot /target mount --all "
12:43<Tj>mipo: then redo: " chroot /target grub-install --verbose --force-extra-removable |& tee /tmp/grub-install.log "
12:43<mjt>Tj: dash doesn't have |& , fwiw. Actually I didn't know it either :)
12:43<Tj>mjt: eeek!
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12:44<Tj>mjt: based on previous output it is using bash
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12:45<Tj>mipo: looks good BUT it didn't mount the efivars so we need to do that and redo the command just to be safe
12:45<mipo>Tj: i run terminal from Gnome GUI
12:46<mipo>Tj: just tell me what to do in command line
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12:47<Tj>mipo: " mount -t efivarfs efivarfs /target/sys/firmware/efi/efivars "
12:47<Tj>mipo: if no errors from that, re-run the grub-install command line again
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12:48<Tj>(reminds self to use --rbind for sysfs not straight mount)
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12:49<Tj>mipo: all looks good - removable media path added "grub-install: info: copying `/usr/lib/shim/shimx64.efi.signed' -> `/boot/efi/EFI/boot/BOOTX64.EFI'."
12:49<Tj>mipo: try a reboot :)
12:49<mipo>Tj: reboot with usb plugged in i guess ?
12:50<Tj>mipo: no, without!
12:50<mipo>Tj: do i need to choose something on boot, or just leave it to pick hdd ?
12:51<Tj>mipo: it should 'just' boot using the removable media path if it doesn't use the boot-menu "Debian" entry, if it is booting in UEFI mode
12:51<Tj>mipo: if it doesn't, then get into the firmware setup and beat it into using UEFO mode1
12:51<Tj>or even UEFI mode!
12:51<mipo>Tj: UFO mode!
12:51<Tj>that was my thought :D
12:51<Tj>Uncooperative Firmware Object
12:51<mipo>Tj: checked that already, no way to force it
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12:55<mjt>gosh that's just a LOT of work and efforts!..
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12:56<mipo>Tj: fail again, Error 1892: No operating system found
12:56<Tj>mipo: then this must be a firmware issue of some kind
12:56<Tj>mipo: any chance you could take a photo of the firmware setup screen where the boot-selection options are?
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12:57<mipo>Tj: on usb, i am able to see Legacy: SanDisk ...., UEFI: Sandisk ...., but not for the internal disk
12:58<mipo>Tj: for boot order selection, i have 3 sections, Normal, Automatic, Error
12:58<Tj>mipo: right, that is why I feel like there's something in firmware causing this. It's a pain that the user manual's "Setup" section doesn't cover the options much nor show any screenshots
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12:58<mipo>Tj: i can take photos, but i need an email address to send them
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13:00<mipo>Tj: but again, i am able to see this Legacy/UEFI when i press <F12> key, i am not able to see them in the actual setup menu
13:00<mipo>Tj: you might be right, somehow the firmware is choosing Legacy or UEFI somehow
13:01<Tj>mipo: o! I just got the firmware programming manual for it
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13:03<Tj>mipo: this is for the WMI; and in the list of possible settings is "CSM" (options "Enabled", "Disabled") which defaults to "Enabled" and should be "Disabled", and "Boot mode" (options "Auto", "UEFI", "Legacy") "Boot priority" (options "UEFI First", "Legacy First")
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13:04<mipo>Tj: i don't have those options in menu
13:04<Tj>mipo: it also shows "Quick Boot" (options "Enabled", "Disabled") which defaults to "Enabled" and should be "Disabled"
13:04<mipo>Tj: oh wait, i have Quick boot enabled
13:04<Tj>mipo: looks like its locked down then.
13:04<mipo>Tj: what WMI is?
13:05<Tj> "Windows Management Instrumentation" -- it's an API to configure systems in Enterprises where they have thounsands of PCs
13:06<Tj>there's also listed "Primary Boot Sequence"
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13:08<Tj>mipo: have you ensured the PC has the latest firmware installed?
13:09<Tj>mipo: it's list as 9VKT33A
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13:09<mipo>Tj: yes, the day that i got the pc
13:12<Tj>mipo: is it on 9VKT33A now ?
13:13<mipo>Tj: yes
13:13<Tj>mipo: there must be something in the firmware to enable this
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13:16<Tj>mipo: I've opened your firmware file to inspect what is in it, might learn something
13:17<mipo>Tj: can you disassemble it?
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13:19<Tj>mipo: possibly
13:20<Tj>mipo: I've also noticed YOU should be able to extract firmware setup info whilst booted in UEFI mode from the EFI vars
13:21<mipo>Tj: does it help?
13:21<Tj>mipo: looking at the EFI variables exposed by your system could help
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13:22<mipo>Tj: command please
13:22<Tj>mipo: " sudo -i " then " apt install netcat-openbsd "
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13:22<Tj>mipo: then grab a list of variables with " ls -1 /sys/firmware/efi/efivars/ | nc 9999 "
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13:26<Tj>mipo: " hexdump -C /sys/firmware/efi/efivars/AutomaticBootDevList-396d23af-e40c-4651-a211-e85d0fdd8197 | nc 9999 "
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13:30<mipo>Tj: i will reboot and search BIOS menu again
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13:30<Tj>mipo: cryptic, but I'd interpret that to say there are 7 entries, the first 3 devices are active and 4 are disabled
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14:26<bremner>is the location of the per-user configuration hardcoded to ~/.ssh/config in openssh?
14:26<ansgar>bremner: ssh -F ~/.bremner/config?
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14:28<bremner>yeah, but all the other things that use ssh indirectly...
14:29<ansgar>bremner: But a fake ssh in ~/.local/bin? :)
14:29<sney>well, rsync respects that file without any extra hints
14:30<bremner>respects which file?
14:30<ansgar>rsync knows about ~/.bremner? :]
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14:31<bremner>sney: sure. But for $reasons, I want to use something else
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14:36<sney>rsync can override ssh defaults with -e, so you could rsync -av -e 'ssh -F ..' though that's pretty clunky. ssh_config(5) does seem to imply that it's not a default you can change. hmm.
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14:42<diederik>I have apt-listbugs installed and when doing an 'aptitude safe-upgrade' it fails to retrieve bug reports with the following error: "E: SSL_connect returned=1 errno=0 state=error: certificate verify failed (certificate has expired)"
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14:43<diederik>This doesn't sound like an apt-listbugs bug, but an issue with Debian infra? Or is it something else?
14:44<diederik>I think that a LetsEncrypt root certificate was phased out very recently (yesterday?) and it looks connected to that
14:44<ansgar>diederik: Which Debian version? Does /etc/ssl/certs/ISRG_Root_X1.pem exist/
14:46<diederik>ansgar: I'm running Sid, but I doubt it's caused by that. It's link that points to /usr/share/ca-certificates/mozilla/ISRG_Root_X1.crt
14:46<diederik>which belongs to the ca-certificates package
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14:47<diederik>at first glance it looks like #995432 is about this/my issue
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14:54<sussudio>you can get new certs here, don't know if it fixes the problem:
14:55<ansgar>diederik: Hmm, if it is, you could `dpkg-reconfigure ca-certificates` and distrust the old DST_Root_CA_X3.pem
14:58<diederik>ansgar: thx. I do see "mozilla/DST_Root_CA_X3.crt" which looks a lot like the one you suggested, but it's not the same. Especially .crt vs .pem
14:58<ansgar>diederik: Oh well, it ends as /etc/ssl/certs/DST_Root_CA_X3.pem if trusted.
14:58<diederik>and there's also "mozilla/ISRG_Root_X1.crt" ...
14:59<ansgar>That is Let's Encrypt's own root and should be trusted (also not expired).
14:59<diederik>I'll try the DST_Root_CA_X3 one first and see what happens ...
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15:02<crawler>I am not sure if it is related
15:02<bahamat>does oldstable continue to get backports?
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15:03<sney>if it's justified, and the maintainer has time, and it's not too complicated it's possible
15:03<bahamat>I'm wondering about DSA-4978, which says that 5.10.46-5 has the fix, but on my deb10 system with backports, I only see 5.10.46-4
15:03<bahamat>Ok, so it's officially "maybe".
15:04<ansgar>bahamat: 5.10.46-5 is in bullseye-security.
15:04<sney>yeah, if you are concerned about something specific you should get in contact with the kernel team
15:04<diederik>crawler: it's my suspician that is the cause for the problem I'm seeing
15:04<sney>ansgar: backports, for buster
15:04<bahamat>but I'm on buster with backports.
15:05<bahamat>Not a big deal, I can prioritize updating. I just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something somehow.
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17:14<Guest1247>is anyone using xfce4 desktop? i'm finding xfce4-appearance-settings isn't setting the font right in stable?
17:17<tjcarter>for which apps? That doesn't control every font setting because everybody does something different.
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17:21<Guest1247>tjcarter… even the appearance settings app isn't changing
17:22<Guest1247>the size is though
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17:22<ejohb>hey I guys I just screwed up a little in upgrading buster to bullseye, I decided to keep my old /etc/sysctl.conf file instead of using the one from the repo, all I had done was to add the line to change swappiness to 30. Will it give me any trouble later, using an old sysctl.conf?
17:23<rudi_s>ejohb: No, shouldn't be an issue. It's fine to keep existing configuration files and in fact most people will do that for almost all configuration files.
17:24<rudi_s>(I like to lower the swapiness but that's just my personal opinion.)
17:25<ejohb>rudi_s, thanks, I will reboot the system now and see if it worked the process was really easy, I just did one full upgrade and one auto remove, amazing
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17:28<somiaj>ejohb: note the new configuration file is there, it is just /etc/foo/config-dpkg or something like that, you can diff them and see if there were any changes you want to apply
17:30<ejohb>somiaj, its the sysctl.conf.dpkg-dist ?
17:30<ejohb>thats awesome thanks I didn't know
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17:30<somiaj>ahh that is it dpkg-dist
17:31<somiaj>and if you decided to use the one provided by dpkg, I belive a copy is made first so it would be /etc/foo.orig or something like that
17:31<ejohb>awesome, thanks :-)
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17:41<ejohb>using terminal is scary I just did mv sysctl.conf-dpkg-dist to sysctl.conf and the file disappeared lol but I had moved it into / directory instead of /etc got really scared like what happened lol
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17:42<somiaj>ejohb: when mentioning stuff like that, you should give the exact command you wrote
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17:42<somiaj>and yes you have to be careful, I have accidently moved one file on top of another, or deleted something I had to recreate because of a rushly typed command
17:43<somiaj>backups are wonderful
17:43<ejohb>somiaj, yeah its crazy, backups are very useful
17:44<somiaj>though I find myself unable to use gui file managers any more, they just feel clunky
17:44<somiaj>I can use them, I just feel limited
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17:53<ejohb>somiaj, sometimes I prefer to use gui file managers because I get scared using the terminal lol
17:55<ejohb>too many years of using windows explorer I blame
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17:59<bahamat>did the syntax of the security repo change with bullseye?
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17:59<bahamat>For buster I have "deb buster/updates main"
17:59<dpkg>There is no "bullseye/updates" repository for security updates. To reduce confusion with <bullseye-updates> (which is for other bug fixes), security updates are distributed via the <bullseye-security> repository "deb bullseye-security main". Note that you may also need to adjust your Default-Release and pinning settings for apt.
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18:01<ejohb>also should be https now right? for the security repo?
18:01<bahamat>ok, and so then bullseye-updates is just regular updates, and not backports, right?
18:01<sney>https isn't relevant for apt repos, because apt has its own signing mechanism
18:01<sney>but you are free to use https if you want to
18:02<somiaj>debian still mainly uses http, and you really don't get any gain for https
18:02<somiaj>yea more and more mirrors now support https, I think a few only support http still though
18:02<somiaj>espically with lets encrypt (though wonder if their root cert expiring affected apt at all)
18:02<ejohb>I have only the security mirror with https and the rest http in bookworm and bullseye
18:03<sney>it won't hurt anything
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18:51<Guest1247>should i be using anacron instead of cron for a desktop install?
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18:52<sarnold>it's not 'instead', it's 'both'
18:53<Guest1247>so i should install anacron after netinst hmmm
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18:54<sarnold>it depends upon what is configured to run when your computer is asleep or off, and how much you want those jobs to run when the computer is turned on again
18:56<Guest1247>yeah i'm looking throuh /etc/crontab.*
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18:59<sussudio>wait... your computer runs stuff when it's off? are you a wizard?
19:03<tjcarter>did Guest1247 ever figure out what was up with fonts not changing?
19:03<tjcarter>I had a long phone appointment
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19:21<Guest1247>tjcarter… nope :(
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20:41<tjcarter>Guest1247: I have noticed that some things XFCE sets in its appearance tool don'g get set globally. For example I had to change my icons in GTK3 by hand.
20:41<tjcarter>Guest1247: Also, I noticed that theme didn't change in XFCE until I closed out of it
20:41<tjcarter>it'd show a preview but it wouldn't apply till I closed the appearance app
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21:24<Ou42>I have a live usb running bullseye using "non-free" in order to actually work.
21:24<dvs>!win Ou42
21:24<dpkg>Congratulations, Ou42! You have won a lifetime supply of spam!
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21:24<Ou42>TY! TYVM! ... ethernet works but wifi (once I figured out how to connect to it) is very slow.
21:25<Ou42>I've found a few posts online about fixing it in Ubuntu and prior versions of Debian... but I asked dpkg
21:25<Ou42>on a whim
21:26<Ou42>My Q is, will I destroy the internet for everybody if I continue on this path? If so, how would you find me?
21:26<sarnold>we'd look for the guy with fast wifi
21:27<Ou42>but the internet would be destoryed. ;o)
21:27<Ou42>which is *much* worse than destroyed.
21:27<Ou42>anyway, is Atheros wifi only?! as in, will trying to fix this break the ethernet?
21:28<Ou42>and ... is this something I can *install* or would I need a new ISO?
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21:29<dvs>new ISO?
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21:30<sarnold>Ou42: there's recent stuff in the kernel's drivers/net/ethernet/atheros/ directory, so it looks like they still do wired ethernet stuff too; I had expected it to just be wireless, I don't recall hearing about their wired stuff nearly as often
21:31<sarnold>you can probably make things work without having to make a new iso, but it might not be convenient..
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21:49<artur>hi all
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21:51<artur>8151 cd
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21:51<Ou42>sarnold: tyvm for the help.
21:52<sarnold>Ou42: you're welcome, though I doubt I was super-helpful...
21:52<Ou42>I walked away for just a second! and the screen locked and I couldn't log back in w/ the default live user password.
21:52<sarnold>Ou42: did you get it working?
21:52<Ou42>had to reboot
21:53<Ou42>dvs: I had to use the 'non-free' ISO to get passed needing amdgpu "firmware"
21:53<Ou42>otherwise it just hung when booting.
21:54<sarnold>I suspect most people need to use the non-free iso
21:54<Ou42>so I'm just wondering if I need something rolled into the ISO in order to get the wifi working... but I suppose this is different
21:54<dvs>Ou42: the nonfree ISO just has more stuff than the regular one.
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21:55<Ou42>first time Debian user. first time live usb user. first time Rufus user. Some of the locals were against Rufus. Just trying to be FOSS friendly.
21:55<sarnold>rufus historically mangled isos whether or not they needed mangling to boot from usb sticks. I don't know what it did, and I don't know if it still does it..
21:56<sarnold>I think they've got a dd mode in there now
21:56<Ou42>I'm an eternal noob. I have some Linux knowledge, but not much via Xubuntu & Mint and more recently ssh into an Ubuntu Server, but I like the GUI eventhough DOS rulez! ;o)
21:56<sarnold>oh man if you love dos wait until you see 4dos!
21:56<Ou42>sarnold: the dd mode is now automatic afaict. it doesn't prompt or offer an option to choose.
21:57<sarnold>Ou42: oh, nice
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21:58<Ou42>again i'm not a rufus super user. just used it a couple days ago... 2x as the 1st time w/ the non 'non-free' didn't work. The mangling history of the app might explain the advice, but wasn't given an alt for windows. My semi curr Linux stuff is in a VM.
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21:59<dpkg>win32diskimager is much more reliable than <rufus> or <etcher> for copying ISO images to USB sticks and you can download it from . Adjust the file mask from *.img to *.* if it doesn't show Debian .iso images. See <usb install> and <install debian> for further details.
21:59<Ou42>jmcnaught: tyvm will save that
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22:00<Ou42>I've tried to install to usb before... but natively. but this was before UEFI... so the usb drive was still portable.
22:00<Ou42>but we're talking years ago
22:00<Ou42>I'm trying to rem the distro... i think it was crunchbang? but dunno.
22:01<Ou42>2GB drive at the time.
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22:12<Ou42>4dos looks scary! how dare they mess w/ perfection! jk jk jk
22:13<dvs>!lart Ou42
22:13*dpkg --purges Ou42
22:14<Ou42>that sounds disgusting. should I be worried?
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22:17<Ou42>brb. gotta check on ... this purge thingie... I extended the screen timeout so *crosses fingers*
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22:22<Ou42>I'm baaaaAAAAAAaaaaaack. :o)
22:23<dvs>oh noes!
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22:24<Ou42>howdy partner!
22:25<Ou42>OK OK
22:25<Ou42>dpkg per "what's my wireless" and the hinfo line it said to run lists, something something a lot more something and then 10k
22:25<dpkg>You are person #1 to send an unparseable request, Ou42
22:25<Ou42>yes, yes I am and don't you forget it dpkg
22:26<Ou42>dpkg: e4
22:26<dpkg>Ou42: I'm not sure, is it larger than a breadbox?
22:28<Ou42>ok so dpkg has info on ath9k & ath5k, but not 10k. But again, I "connect" but it is too slow to use
22:28<Ou42>according the hwinfo, I have an 802.11ac ... 9k is 'n' and 5k is 'abg'?
22:31<dpkg>ath10k is a Linux kernel driver supporting PCIe 802.11ac (a/b/g/n compatible) wireless LAN devices based on the Qualcomm Atheros QCA988x 2.0 family of chips (PCI IDs 168c:003c, 168c:abcd). Introduced at Linux 3.11. Firmware from userspace is required, ask me about <non-free sources> and install the firmware-atheros package to provide.
22:31<Ou42>i'm telling u that wasn't there a min ago
22:31*Ou42 ahem ahem
22:31<Ou42>"[19:27] <Ou42> ath01k"
22:32*Ou42 ahem
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22:33<Ou42>OK, can someone translate? Must I install firmware? Can't I use the 9k or 5k instead w/o having to deal w/ whatever this firmware stuff is?
22:34<imMute>Ou42: firmware is stuff that the hardware itself runs. some hardware can run (usually with limited functionality) without the firmware but most cant
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22:35<Ou42>imMute: but it's stuff that has to be installed before the OS? it sits on the physical chips of the device? as in would this, in this case, require I create a new ISO to run it live?
22:36<imMute>the OS loads it onto the hardware every boot
22:36<Ou42>so it's something I can install now?
22:36<imMute>the firmware package? yeah, you can install that whenever....
22:36<dvs>Ou42: Why do you think you have to create a new iso all the time?
22:36<imMute>I have no idea what that means?
22:37<Ou42>dvs: first time using linux in a live usb
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22:38<imMute>dvs: oops, I misread and thought that was coming from Ou42
22:38<Ou42>dvs: the first "burn" didn't work. gurus here thought it was Rufus' fault. It apparnetly wasn't. I req the non-free ISO to get past 3 error msgs about amdgpu and 2 about what I believe to be wireless.
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22:38<Ou42>"burn" in this case means install to usb stick
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22:39<dvs>Ou42: the nonfree iso just has more stuff than the regular iso.
22:39<Ou42>is apt-get still req or is 'apt' by itself sufficient now?
22:39<un214>the time soon comes when I will be obtaining new hardware
22:39<dvs>uh oh
22:39<dvs>pricey stuff now
22:39<Ou42>un214: and donating it to me? very well, I accept.
22:40<un214>fun joke
22:40<un214>anyway after jumping my system I will finally be able to attempt a systemd install again
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22:41<un214>is there a good way to reset /etc/systemd/system to defaults? I took some bad advise on trying to get it to work
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22:45<imMute>un214: I think the default is nothing in there, soo.... rm -f /etc/systemd/system/* ?
22:46<un214>I definitely didn't put logrotate.service in there
22:48<Ou42>how to uninstall ath10k and try ath9k?
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22:49<alexis>hei all
22:50<Ou42><Ou42> uninstall ath10k - <dpkg> parse error: dunno what the heck you're talking about, Ou42 - <Ou42> uninstall - <dpkg> are you smoking crack?
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22:50<Ou42>I prefer those candy cigarettes, but they don't sell them anymore. But hey, pot is legal now.
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22:52<sney>Ou42: that request doesn't make sense anyway, because ath10k and ath9k are different device series, and their drivers aren't interchangeable.
22:52<sney>you'd have to hit ebay and order an ath9k nic for your computer.
22:53*dvs smacks ebay across the face
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22:55<Ou42>sney: fair enough, but wifi is too slow. this smells like a bug / incorrect detection to me
22:55<Ou42>my laptop isn't that new
22:56<sney>a lot of people have issues with ath10k. it seems like it just isn't very good, unfortunately.
22:56<sney>it's been in the kernel since 2013 in some form or another, so "new" isn't exactly required
22:56<Ou42>hwinfo says, Model: "Qualcomm Atheros QCA9377 802.11ac Wireless Network Adapter" and
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22:56<Ou42> lists: "AR93xx"
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22:57<sney>QCA =/= AR
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22:57<Ou42>sney: ok, buzzwords, hints, things to search for to try to fix it?
22:58<libsys>hello people... I'm trying to install Debian 11 on an A20 based single board computer... it boots fine if I partition it as ext, but not if I partition /boot as ext2 and / as BTRFS
22:58<libsys>I only obtain a black screen
22:58<libsys>I don't have a serial cable to try other kinds of installation
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22:58<sney>Ou42: you can look at for some driver information, and maybe try passing different options to ath10k_core (see /sbin/modinfo ath10k_core) - I don't have any specific tips, but just trial and error and see what happens
22:59<libsys>what could be happening?
22:59<un214>can you set up the ssh server in initrd and ssh in?
22:59<un214>A pretty good guess is it's not set up right and / can't be mounted
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23:00<Ou42>sney: ty. will look. just a quick Q on it though...
23:01<Ou42>"ath10k is the mac80211 wireless driver for Qualcom Atheros QCA988x family of chips" but mine's a QCA9377
23:02<sney>Ou42: sure, and then you scroll down to 'supported devices' and there it is. not all of them are 988x, and only the vendor knows why
23:02<libsys>un214: I can see all the files on my computer, the storage is an sd card
23:03<un214>ah that makes it a bit easier; you can check the initrd directly and see if the btrfs driver made it
23:06<Ou42>sney: ah. scroll down. what a concept. OK TY again!
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23:09<Ou42>just for kicks, is there a list of Linux/Debian compatible usb wifi adapters?
23:10<sney>unfortunately not, as there are always new dongles coming out with unknown support. but if you search for one that says it is "raspberry pi compatible" that will usually be fine.
23:11<dvs>and even the ones that are already out change chipsets
23:11*Ou42 imagines big co's sneaking into his house at night to change the chips in his devices
23:12<sney>yep, tp-link in particular is known for changing the chip without changing the model name
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23:12<Ou42>yeah, I've heard that there's a lot of that going on lately w/ RAM too. Get it reviewed to all applause and then release w/ lesser quality/speed chips.
23:13<linux_n>Anyone gotten playonlinux to work on debian?
23:14<sney>playonlinux usually works, but debian 11 just came out, so 3rd party software might not have caught up yet.
23:14<dpkg>Please do not ask if anyone can help you, knows 'something' or uses 'some_program'. Instead, ask your real question. (If the real question _was_ "does anyone use 'some_program'?" ask me about <popcon> instead.) See <ask> <ask to ask> <polls> <search> <sicco> <smart questions>.
23:17<linux_n>I got playonlinux to work on xubuntu but on debian it gives me this error ---> Error in POL_Wine
23:17<linux_n>Wine seems to have crashed
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23:20<sney>you will probably have better luck getting support on their forum, though you should also double-check the instructions in case you missed a step.
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23:26<Ou42>interesting commentary from dpkg. Speaking for noobs who didn't ask to be spoken for ( sell included. I'm still debating if I want to be represent myself... ) "we're" just trying to be respectful. It's annoying. I get it (now) I may forget it tomorrow, but yes, gotta work on being less ... ummm ... wordy. ;o)
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23:29<imMute>Ou42: dpkg is a bot
23:31*Ou42 returns dpkg's ring
23:31<Ou42>we're through! Enough w/ the lies!
23:33<Ou42>Good night everybody. Thanks again.
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---Logclosed Sat Oct 02 00:00:02 2021