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#debian IRC Logs for 2021-12-16

---Logopened Thu Dec 16 00:00:47 2021
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00:00-!-TheRuralJuror is "AP,,," on #debian-next #security #debian
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00:21-!-dogsleg is "Lev Lamberov" on #debian-social #debian-l10n-russian #debian-devel-changes #debian-meeting #debian-haskell #debian-i18n #debian
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00:37<somiaj>k-man: finally got it to work. edit /etc/apparmor.d/local/usr.bin.evince (this is the file for local overrides). Add the line /path/to/firefox/* ixr, -- this will allow evince to read and excecute any files in the firefox directory, which got links to work for me
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01:06-!-andys is "Andy Smith" on #debian
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01:13<aleksdbs>Don`t start viber in debian 11
01:14<aleksdbs>не запускается вайер в debian 11
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01:49-!-rclobus is "Roland Clobus" on #debian #debian-games #reproducible-changes #debian-live
01:50<truth2>Does any package report historic climate data by location?
01:53<somiaj>Maybe search through the scientific packages using deb-tags
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02:06<twb>truth2: last time I needed that, I emailed and they sent me a spreadsheet
02:07<twb>Of course that was before they became capitalists and based their profit model on the american meteorologists
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02:08-!-Abrax is "Abrax Tryke" on #videogames #debian #ceph #virt #tor #freedombox
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02:09<somiaj>In USA you can look up the data on snotel sites, though unsure of a quick way to download it all, but it should be available.
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02:09<somiaj>well some data
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04:14<sussudio>truth2: has downloadable weather data in dutch.
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05:24<wwallace>Hello I have a local mounted system called /usr but there is an nfs mounted called /usr/someshare, I have to scan just /usr without going past just that /usr
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05:25<wwallace>in other words i do not want to scan the nfs share named /usr/someshare.
05:25<Habbie>what kind of scan?
05:25<GyrosGeier>define "scan"
05:25<wwallace>This is for the vulnerability called logforj2
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05:26<wwallace>There is a java -jar to scan partitions looking for the version that is vulnerable, but I dont wanna scan nfs shares.
05:26<Habbie>if the scan tool does its own file system walking, the only thing i can think of is to bindmount /usr onto some other path, without the recursive flag, and scan that
05:27<wwallace>The scan tool has a --exclude flag but is not working too good.
05:27<selckin>then talk to them not us
05:28<wwallace>because it sees /usr as a local and it does not see that /use/someshare is nfs
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07:12<spawacz>Is there an easy way to transfer debian installation from sdcard to emmc?
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07:16<jpw>spawacz `dd` will get the data across but there will be additional work if device names change
07:17<jm_>I just cp -a or use rsync when copying to new device
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07:17<jpw>in short, no. you'd be best off reinstalling and moving the important data imo
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07:32<spawacz>that's what i decided to do, thanks
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09:03<Tob>Hi! At what a point during boot from installation media it may be a good idea to place a logic for a preseed file auto-selection for Debian Installer?
09:03<Tob>Playing with
09:03<Tob>I want to place two seed files inside ISO and auto-select one at boot. Selection criterion is: if storage have any known data structures or empty.
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09:57<wifid>how to provide wifi .bin firmwar to install?
09:57<somiaj>you need a second usb stick or you can just use the firmware installer
09:57<somiaj>!firmware images
09:57<dpkg>There are <live> system and <netinst> and DVD images containing non-free Debian <firmware> packages available from The images are "unofficial" because "official Debian" includes only 100% free software, but otherwise identical to the normal installer images and prepared by the same Debian Developers. See <check iso>, <old firmware images>.
09:57<wifid>I have USB with vfat32 in sda1 (usb), on top of that filesystem there are the files that intallers says it needs, like rtw.....bin and such, but it still fails
09:57<somiaj>This is a second usb stick?
09:58<wifid>somiaj: instalation is from a DVD, and that is an usb stick with vfat with bin files
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09:58<wifid>console 4 says looking for firmware file rtw88/...bin
09:58<wifid>but then it just says missing firmware
09:59<wifid>how to manually in console execute the command that it is trying to execute, to load the .bin firmware? some insmod?
09:59<somiaj>Anyways, you don't need wifi to install from the dvd, just do the install, then after you are done with the install, just copy over the corresponding .deb file and dpkg -i it is my suggestion
10:02<wifid>lmao it worked finally
10:02<wifid>had to copy /rtw88/ as a directory, into /lib/fimware/
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10:02<wifid>would be nice if the message from installer could tell me that!
10:02<wifid>insert usb and copy the firmware files (with dirs) to /lib/firmare/
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10:07<g00se>If I create a unit in /lib/systemd/system/ is it enabled by default or must that be done explicitly?
10:10<bremner>the latter
10:11<bremner>perhaps restarting systemd or daemon-reload would also suffice
10:12<somiaj>that is why there is an install manual to tell you things like that
10:13<somiaj>g00se: don't create units /lib/systemd/system, that is reserved for debian packges, use /etc/systemd/system for local units
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10:15<g00se>OK. Then i'll use /etc thanks.
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10:18<somiaj>note services in /etc/systemd can be used to override system units in /lib/systemd, and you don't need to copy the whole service file you can actually just override small parts, which is what systemctl -e unit does
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10:21<g00se>Right thanks. Finding things out like "is a unit enabled by default?" by manning or googling is not easy.
10:23<somiaj>well there you don't have to google anything, just 'systemctl status unit' and it will tell you if it is enabled or not
10:24<somiaj>though the one catch that it takes a bit to get use to is systemctl daemon-reload, though I think systemctl lets you know you may need to do that now
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10:29<g00se>I think I checked to see if it was enabled and was surprised to see that it was. IOW explicit enabling was unnecessary. But still I had my doubts
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10:33<acnn>Hello, anyone here ever used ipsec in debian for some reason it's not recognising my config file.
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10:36<petn-randall>acnn: Probably many people. Best is if you share the what you did, what you expected, and and what you got instead (errors included). You can share infos via
10:37<acnn>this is in a file /etc/ipsec.d/forti.conf and does not come up
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10:49<wwallace>how to bind a mount point somewhere else?
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10:50<cc>mount --bind ?
10:50<anjannath>wwallace:something like `mount --bind /dir /target_dir` should work
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10:51<petn-randall>acnn: How are you starting it?
10:52<acnn>ipsec stop ; ipsec start; ipsec up fortinet
10:52<acnn>after changing the names from fortinet to forti to the file and to the conn , changed the comms to ikev1 it's now trying to come up
10:53<wwallace>Thank you anjannath
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10:59<Sqrt{Not}>wwallace, there are some subtleties available in bind mounting, it does not hurt to look at that section in man mount
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11:01<wwallace>Looking that now Sqrt{Not}
11:01<petn-randall>acnn: What output do you get when it tries to start?
11:02<winstonsmith>having trouble after an upgrade from buster to bullseye. i boot with systemd-boot, and have a luks encrypted root partition. booting with my old 4.19 kernel, no problem, works like it always did. booting with 5.10 kernel, i see a quick message about efistub (thats new) and then at the point that i should be prompted for the luks passphrase, the system hangs. any ideas before i post to the mailing group?
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11:03<petn-randall>winstonsmith: You should be able to press esc to see any further messages on the screen. Acually, press it a few times.
11:03<petn-randall>I've sometimes had it that the prompt wouldn't show up, and after pressing it twice it would show.
11:03<winstonsmith>the efistub message makes me think i have not updated systemd-boot correctly, or provided an incorrect path to the kernel in /boot/efi/EFI/loaders/
11:03<winstonsmith>ok petn will try that
11:04<petn-randall>winstonsmith: petn<tab>
11:05<petn-randall>winstonsmith: I don't think systemd-boot has anything to do with it, AFAICS, as it's existed in buster, too. Unless you installed it on upgrade.
11:06<petn-randall>winstonsmith: Do you mean systemd-bootchart?
11:06<winstonsmith>no i didn't install it during upgrade, i used it in buster too
11:07<petn-randall>winstonsmith: I can't find any package named that way.
11:08<petn-randall>Oh, it's packaged in systemd, now I get it.
11:08<winstonsmith>systemd-boot, the old gummi-boot. it's a UEFI boot manager. cleaner and in my limitied exerience quicker than grub-efi. but that may be because i'm running debian on a macmini
11:08<winstonsmith>correct petn-randall
11:09<petn-randall>winstonsmith: So you're not using grub as efi payload, but systemd-boot?
11:09<winstonsmith>petn-randall: correct
11:10<petn-randall>Ah, interesting.
11:10<petn-randall>I'm not familiar with the inner details of that.
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11:10<winstonsmith>petn-randall: it is slick, i do the same thing with my macbook air running arch linux
11:10<petn-randall>If in doubt, install grub2, too, and have that in parallel as one of the blobs to boot from via uefi.
11:11<winstonsmith>petn-randall: my daily driver. this debian macmini is a little headless server
11:11<somiaj>isn't systemd-boot what use to be calle efimanger or something like that...anyways I like the idea of that, since grub isn't needed with efi, but finding someone who knows the details may be rare since it is still not used that widely
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11:12<winstonsmith>it is slick, i do the same thing with my macbook air running arch linux, my daily driver
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11:13<winstonsmith>petn-randall: thanks for both of those suggestions, i'll try esc first, then install grub-efi. then i'll see whether the problem is systemd-boot acting up, or something kernel related?
11:13<somiaj>does it boot the old 4.19 kernel (which can still be installed after the upgrade)
11:15<winstonsmith>to me systemd-boot is very clean, quick. it's been working excellently on bth debian and arch for years now for me. many kernel upgrades on arch (obviously) and no issues. the kernel upgrade on debian seems to be confounding me lol
11:16<winstonsmith>on this little server i need the stability of debian, no sweat working a little harder to finish this upgrade off
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11:18<petn-randall>winstonsmith: I'd boot into the old kernel, and see if `bootctl status` gives you any hints. Might need to install it again with `bootctl install` to work again.
11:18<petn-randall>This is all guesswork, I'm just deducting that from the usual problems you can have with grub.
11:18<winstonsmith>petn-randall: tried that, thanks tho
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11:26<winstonsmith>petn-randall: esc got me one more message, but it didn't get me to the crucial luks prompt lol
11:32<g00se>If a headless box comes up with a login prompt, has the multi-user target been reached?
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11:33<scorpion2185[m]>If I copy some lines from a site for the man page do I need to specify it?
11:33<imMute>depends on the license of the site.
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11:35<winstonsmith>sorry having connection issues with the webchat client. does oftc block proxy connections? my bouncer can't connect
11:35<bremner>no. many of us are using bouncers
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11:36<winstonsmith>anyhow, i think the message 'efi stub loaded initrd from command line otion' tells the tale. the kernel's own efi stub is booting, not systemd-boot
11:37<somiaj>scorpion2185[m]: you really should get a lawer to answer these questions. In general if you use others work, you have to comply with their license, which for MIT means you have to include the original copyright and a copy of the license.
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11:37<somiaj>but #debian isn't really for supporting this
11:38<scorpion2185[m]>matrix bridge doesn't work on mentor
11:38<somiaj>your questions are not for debian-mentors either
11:39<scorpion2185[m]>yes it's for how put these things in the copyright
11:41<somiaj>My understanding is you are making a fork of software and how to license a fork. This isn't the same as packing and documenting current software
11:43<scorpion2185[m]>right, but maybe I won't fork it. When you make a package and create a man page copying a part from the site with code , you end up with a file that is in part property of the site.
11:44<somiaj>does this man page not just come with the software you are trying to package.
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11:44<scorpion2185[m]>it is just a man page, do I need to specify "this part is from pippim, this part is made by me"?
11:44<somiaj>Anyways, you may also need to either work with the team that packages similar software or look for a sponsor, they can help with the details.
11:45<scorpion2185[m]>this software doesn't have a manpage, just some description
11:45<somiaj>you should write patches in debian/patches that modify the current code, and debian/* is using yoru copywright license.
11:46<scorpion2185[m]>that's why i wanted to fork it, also to remove "interface to sysmonitor indicator" cause on Debian it seems not possible
11:46<somiaj>ahh so you are writing the manual page and putting it in debian/? In that case it is a little more subtle, and I'm not a lawyer who can answer that correctly. Though these questions are better for #debian-mentors or a sponsor/team
11:47<scorpion2185[m]>ok thanks , can somebody fix matrix bridge?
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11:48<somiaj>Usually a maintaier shouldn't be forking software to get it into debian. They should be applying patches.
11:48<somiaj>they should also be working with upstream and sending them patches as well
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11:49<scorpion2185[m]>he's busy getting a ton of answers in the site, he didn't make a repo yet
11:49<scorpion2185[m]>but the code is also on the site, MIT license for the site
11:53<somiaj>I do think you are getting ahead of yourself. I think you should focus on just creating a debian package to start with, don't worry about the manual page just yet, get a working package, then start looking for a sponsor/team to work with. They can help you with the more fine tune details.
11:53<somiaj>I don't know why the matrix bridge doesn't work with #debian-mentors, you can try #oftc to ask about that
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11:59<Sqrt{Not}>hi anas
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12:46<darksidetr>`DI.D u` s. a T r .a i n , & s u p .`pl y i s. ` i s wi th w e.A .p o n s l i K e i t d Ii.d w i t h a. l .q. a e . d a to j. u st. If y c r .E a t i n g w. a. R s C. R e. A T I V E C .H .a .O S- d I d c. i`. a d i d [ 9 . \ 11.0 ] . or, i t J u S t l E t ` it h a p P. en * c er tT a i n l y ,the . a
12:46<darksidetr> m E r. i c` a n s ne Ed. e d somet.hHng . L i k e 9.0 / 1 1.0 to j .u s.T i f y i n. V `a d i n g .i R. /a q ` w h i c h/ ha.s b e. e n … alR.ea dy p l a PN n e d as a p art of c r .e/ A t i v e c h A. o s p L a n iF .a .L ` q .A` e .d a / ` di d .. it w h .y , ` t o k `i .L l 9 . m i .L` l i .On . i
12:46<darksidetr>.R` a q i s
12:46<darksidetr>a b o u t 9 m `i.L i o n - I r. a `Q i l o .s t ` th e i r li. ves e i th e r be ca. uz . o f di.r e ct amer.i`can vi. OL e`.nce ` and .. . beca uz /of sI .e`ge . u .s a ma de . a`g a i.n s t i r. A q t h at pr e.Ve nt ed i R. a qi f or m es s.E nt ial ` l i v i n g ` ma. t e ri. a l s , fo.Od , m E. d i c i n e
12:46<darksidetr>i .s . I s /a n d a l. q A ` e Da o n l y a p p e a r e d . `i n. i R.` a q a f t e r u. s a i n. v a. Si, on , D i d u s a .P a. v E. th e w. Ay .f or i S.` I s to i r `a Q?
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12:46<gettybarndy>`DI.D u` s. a T r .a i n , & s u p .`pl y i s. ` i s wi th w e.A .p o n s l i K e i t d Ii.d w i t h a. l .q. a e . d a to j. u st. If y c r .E a t i n g w. a. R s C. R e. A T I V E C .H .a .O S- d I d c. i`. a d i d [ 9 . \ 11.0 ] . or, i t J u S t l E t ` it h a p P. en * c er tT a i n l y ,the . a m
12:46<gettybarndy>E r. i c` a n s ne Ed. e d somet.hHng . L i k e 9.0 / 1 1.0 to j .u s.T i f y i n. V `a d i n g .i R. /a q ` w h i c h/ ha.s b e. e n … alR.ea dy p l a PN n e d as a p art of c r .e/ A t i v e c h A. o s p L a n iF .a .L ` q .A` e .d a / ` di d .. it w h .y , ` t o k `i .L l 9 . m i .L` l i .On . i .R` a q i s
12:46<gettybarndy>a b o u t 9 m `i.L i o n - I r. a `Q i l o .s t ` th e i r li. ves e i th e r be ca. uz . o f di.r e ct amer.i`can vi. OL e`.nce ` and .. . beca uz /of sI .e`ge . u .s a ma de . a`g a i.n s t i r. A q t h at pr e.Ve nt ed i R. a qi f or m es s.E nt ial ` l i v i n g ` ma. t e ri. a l s , fo.Od , m E. d i c i n e
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12:46<gettybarndy>i .s . I s /a n d a l. q A ` e Da o n l y a p p e a r e d . `i n. i R.` a q a f t e r u. s a i n. v a. Si, on , D i d u s a .P a. v E. th e w. Ay .f or i S.` I s to i r `a Q?
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15:14<twb>Does that spam look "normal" to normal humans? It looks like UTF-16 in an Emacs IRC client.
15:14<twb>And they don't appear to be using ZWNBS or anything clever
15:14<sney>it looks like some wideterm mess
15:14<Habbie>it looks very spaced to me
15:14<sney>cat spam.txt | toilet -f wideterm
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15:15<Habbie>like that, but in ASCII, yes
15:15<Habbie>and not consistently
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15:18<somiaj>I just saw noise
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15:49<jcbjoe2021>i thought it was my terminal for a second
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16:03<Sqrt{Not}>running here on an old low mem 686;sluggish and laggy; even though I closed firefox-esr DAYS ago, i just found 2 ff-esr processes in top; killed 'em. will see if the lagginess improves.
16:05<twb>Sqrt{Not}: I am seriously impressed you can get firefox to work *at all* on a 80686
16:05<Sqrt{Not}>you just need lots of swap and lots of patience
16:06<sney>I had buster more-or-less functional on a 10" eeepc a few years ago, with firefox-esr. a lot of sites were out of the question but I could do webmail and take notes
16:07<Sqrt{Not}>and the sluggish+laggy has disappeared :) [bullseye here]
16:07<twb>sney: well of course firefox gets worse over time :-)
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16:08<zoke>a lot of sites are more or less unusable even on descent hw... excessive scripting/tracking + noob web-developers (if they can even be considered developers)
16:09<sney>yes, that trend has been getting worse for quite a while
16:09<zoke>the whole webapp craze doesn't help either
16:12*Sqrt{Not} does still have a mosaic binary somewhere around here
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17:08<jcbjoe2021>How do you find what repo or package provides a certain tool? On arch it's pacman -F was wondering about Debian. I tried apt-file search but that didn't help
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17:14<sney>jcbjoe2021: there are some common search suggestions in the refcard under apt and dpkg,
17:14<sney>you can also use aptitude for more advanced searches
17:15<sney>apt-file is how you'd find what package owns a file. but if the name is generic you can get too much output. you can try guessing at part of the path, like if it's a cli tool you could 'apt-file search bin/foo' instead of just 'apt-file search foo'
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17:17<jcbjoe2021>sney: I was taking about remote packages that are not installed. Like locate in bite it's provided by delocate but what if I didn't know that hire would I find it?
17:18<sney>apt-file searches the repo, not your system
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17:18<sney>note that many 3rd party repos don't provide the Contents file that apt-file needs in order to work, so it's only consistent with official stuff
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17:21<jcbjoe2021>sney: how do I narrow it down I did apt-file search locate lots of hits
17:22<sney>here's the tip I just told you again: you can try guessing at part of the path, like if it's a cli tool you could 'apt-file search bin/foo' instead of just 'apt-file search foo'
17:22<sney>you can also pipe the ouptut to grep
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18:10<jcbjoe2021>thanks sney looking at the man page of apt-file showed a lot of stuff -l list and some other options helped :D
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19:50<twb>sney: man apt-patterns
19:50<twb>sney: most of it is in plain apt as at Debian 11
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20:28<wifid>just installed debian 11, with Xfce (not Gnome) if that matters
20:28<wifid>why the new desktop icons are so ugly?
20:29<wifid>I mean the "Web browser" button on bottom panel, and the "show desktop". like if IT student draw them on a break in paint
20:29<themill>Sounds like you want to change the icons.
20:29<wifid>themill: how you do that in xfce?
20:30<wifid>well actually it isn't a real problem, just saying sometimes the decissions are made needlessly to make things worse
20:30<themill>I assume it has some sort of settings dialogue?
20:30<themill>Debian isn't making decisions about icon themes
20:30<wifid>not choosing defaults in packaging?
20:31<wifid>anyway, on the good side, sort of new laptop seems to work fine, even on oldbian (deb 11)
20:31<wifid>besides needing nonfree firmware for wifi
20:31<themill>xfce developers and the individual users are the ones who chose the icon themes
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20:32<wifid>after instalation, how to temporarirly use .bin firmware files (e.g. copies from USB) to get network so that I can install non-free package? put them into /lib/firmware/ same as in install-cd environment? and then run what command to like "again try to find network hardware and insmod or whatever"?
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20:35<wifid>if I get .deb from network, how to confirm (on another Debian installation) that this file is signed by debian?
20:35<sarnold>if your firmware is packaged in the linux-firmware package, it might be easier / faster to stuff that onto a usb stick, rather than individual bins
20:38<wifid>laptop has 1 harddrive with partitions: 200 MB ESP EFI ; 16 MB micro$oft recovery ; 400 GB NTFS (now ext4 with debian) ; 500 MB NTFS. Is it ok to zero out entire disk and start with new partition table, before reinstalling debian there? or is ESP/EFI partition needed? I would rather have less than more closed and probably backdoored stuff
20:39<sarnold>you could certainly try the 'legacy boot' or 'csm boot' option from your bios if you really needed to get rid of the esp/efi partition -- but that's probably not as well tested as the uefi option
20:40<wifid>sarnold: so the recommended way is to leave esp/efi partition as it is provided by device vendor? it is some sort of overgrown cancer BIOS thing, that is so big it is now on disk instead of in ROM on mobo?
20:40<sarnold>when I want to quickly tell if I got a 'legit file' from a curl or wget, I use grep -r <hash> /var/lib/apt/lists/*Packages -- it's not perfect but fine for quick-and-dirty use once in a while
20:41<wifid>sarnold: but .deb to check is from deb11 and I am on deb10 here
20:41<sarnold>wifid: no the UEFI implementation is still on the motherboard, this is just a standardized way different operating systems can collaborate on a standard boot environment, early boot services, etc
20:42*wifid cranks the handle on deb10 to make ye ol' kernel allocate more SLAB memory.
20:42<sarnold>wifid: oh. that's more work then :/ you'd have to grab the lists from the mirrors at the same time you grab the file
20:42<wifid>sarnold: I hate modern boot so much you wouldn't believe it
20:42<sarnold>I think lilo may still be packaged somewhere if you've got a thing for 2gb partitions... :)
20:43<wifid>early backdoor services
20:44<wifid>so far I never left EFI part as it was, always deleted it. Guess will make a backup of it, and first sectors + part table and see how it works
20:45<twb>wifid: can you show a screenshot of the icons you mean?
20:45<wifid>any idea what needs to be restored to bring it back to vendor's initial state of "about to first install windows10"? probably the 16 mb microsoft recovery, EFI to be sure, and the small 500 MB 2nd NTFS partition should suffice?
20:45<twb>You probably want to install gnome-accessibility-themes which provides the normal XFCE icons
20:45<wifid>twb: later, when net is working
20:45<twb>sorry I meant gnome-themes-extra and gnome-accessibility-themes
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20:55<wifid>how bad is it to use zfs on debian? in terms of security, support, being not "pure" foss\
20:56<twb>wifid: it is pure foss
20:56<Sqrt{Not}>wifid, you should consider installing from one of the unofficial non-free installer images, which have published crypto hashes on the same web page you download them from. Thus you have the firmware, and the signatures.
20:56<raven523>it's just not GPL-compatible
20:56<twb>CDDL was designed specifically to be *as free as* GPL, but not *compatible* with GPL
20:57<wifid>twb: weird goal
20:57<twb>wifid: the real goal was "make sure only Solaris can ship this pre-installed"
20:58<twb>Or rather, "make sure Solaris is better than Linux for ZFS"
20:58<twb>Sun already had major coups with NFS (adopted by everyone) and NeWS (competitors banded together to create X specifically to prevent NeWS winning)
20:58<nr0q_radio>is Solaris even still around?
20:58<twb>nr0q_radio: technically yes
20:59<twb>nr0q_radio: but Oracle don't promote it to new customers
20:59<wifid>why would one use solaris over linux or bsd?
21:00<nr0q_radio>so it's in the OS rest home awaiting it's final days
21:00<wifid>if it's basically dead, why not relicence zfs to gpl
21:00<twb>wifid: anyway. I migrated all my stacks from btrfs and md/luks/lvm2/ext4 to plain ZFS when OpenZFS 2.0 landed and I could do incremental encrypted backups to an untrusted government
21:01<twb>wifid: deployment is a minor pain (with /root on ZFS), and /boot/esp is ugly because the EFI and grub drivers for ZFS don't support encryption
21:01<nr0q_radio>I'm using xfs here on everything and been a lot happier than I was with ext4 and I just don't quite yet trust btrfs yet
21:01<twb>wifid: but overall, it's a big win over anything else IMO
21:01<twb>when btrfs lost bcache was the tipping point for me
21:02<twb>rlaager's walkthrough for Debian is excellent
21:03<twb>Oh --- Debian does not currently have integration between apt/fwupd and zfs. So you can't roll back to "just before last apt upgrade"
21:03<wifid>twb: what about bcache?
21:03<twb>Solaris and Ubuntu claim to do this, but it's kinda bleh on UBuntu
21:03<twb>wifid: what about it?
21:04<wifid>twb: you said btrfs lose bcache?
21:04<wifid>what does that mean
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21:04<twb>zfs can combine small-fast and big-slow disks to make a big-fast array.
21:04<twb>btrfs can't.
21:04<wifid>as for botting and / being zfs encrypted, perhaps you might want to use separate /boot on ext4?
21:04<twb>A workaround was to use bcache in the middle, but the bcache maintainer decided to make their own complete filesystem (bcachefs)
21:08<twb>re relicense -- yes, Oracle can do that anytime it wants to. If Oracle wants to be a kind, generous, helpful member of the community, it can. But this is Oracle -- who is so evil its leader LITERALLY has a volcano lair.
21:09<twb>I also really like that transparent compression gives me 30% more disk for free
21:12<twb>actually better than 30% for most systems:
21:12<sarnold>hrm, I was hoping to prepare a nice single line that shows the effect of both dedup and compress on my pool, but I can't figure out how to do that :)
21:13<twb>sarnold: I feel dedup is a waste of time for most people
21:13<sarnold>twb: it is
21:13<twb>sarnold: but at least dedup can now use NVMe instead of RAM
21:13<sarnold>twb: ooooo?
21:13<twb>wow you didn't know and you still dedup?
21:14<sarnold>I'm on zfs.ancient
21:14<twb>I can't easily see in "man zfsconcepts" but I think it's something simple like "have a slog disk"
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21:16<twb>Ah no, you declare dedicated dedup disks
21:17<sarnold>twb: awesome! :D thanks!
21:18<twb>I also like that, if you set it up correctly (easy), and /sys/class/ses works (hard), ZFS will automatically tell the NOC monkey "replace disk in this bay" and then do a completely unattended sync onto it
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21:21<twb>It will also lock the disk so you cannot accidentally "dd of=/dev/sda" to a ZFS disk
21:24<twb>There's also an open ticket to workaround Itanium's brain-damaged EFI specification:
21:35<sarnold>interesting idea
21:44<twb>in the meantime I just use DOM
21:45<twb>I hate it but meh
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22:25<earendel_>wifid: i believe you need to boot from installation media, than before installation start go to repair options, and cmd. if you deleted efi, you need diskpart to create a fat partition, format. than assign the efi attribute.. ef00 or so. look it up. ok. then you copy boot directory to boot drive. and bcdboot <windowsdir> /s <bootdrive> /f ALL .. done. and make sure to boot from the installation media in proper EFI mode.
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22:27<earendel_>i hate it too. i don't understand it. secure boot has some potential, maybe.
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22:32<earendel_>that ALL or EFI is will recreate EFI or EFI and bios boot thingy. but it will make other installation inaccessible, without further tweaking. warning. easybcd iirc correctly was a nice tool to create bootloaders able to boot iso's and other stuff from a menue without wanting to know how it works in detail.
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22:34<earendel_>its then not than. eeks.
22:38<earendel_>ask me about nvram variables
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22:39<twb>it's very easy to understand
22:39<twb>Open Firmware already existed and was invented by Sun and was an IEEE standard.
22:40<twb>So when Intel made the Itanic and realized really late that their existing 16-bit BIOS boot wouldn't work anymore, they invented EFI instead of admitting a competitor had a good idea
22:40<twb>And it was done by the Itanium team, so it was incredibly shit
22:40<earendel_>a compact disc is such a reliable medium. twb: really? if you know a not too long but fine read i may give it a try.
22:41<sney>the openfirmware interface on those sun ultras was great, too. drop to a firmware prompt in the middle of running the OS, and then resume like nothing happened. haha
22:41<twb>earendel_: mgj59's bitching about EFI secure boot is quite apropos
22:41<twb>"When you have to explain the standard to the people who wrote it..." is a memorable quote
22:42<twb>s/bitching/kvetching/ since that's a gendered word in en-US
22:42<earendel_>i think it is as with certs. just signing .. blah blah
22:43<twb>oh and I forgot a major problem on Debian ZFS --- secure boot is nontrivial
22:43<nr0q_radio>anyone boot Debian on now EOL Western Digital My loud NASs
22:43<nr0q_radio>My loud
22:43<earendel_>it takes some care, but in principle it can secure early part from modification. (not meaning there isnt enuff other problems of which i dont want to all)
22:44<twb>nr0q_radio: no idea. What chipset?
22:44<nr0q_radio>not sure yet, I'm getting an email a day from them reminding me I'm now EOL
22:44<nr0q_radio>and I really don't want to buy a new one yet
22:45<sussudio>aren't these things at least 10 years old
22:45<earendel_>i just don't understand why my toaster needs megabytes of nvram to make some toast
22:45<twb>earendel_: it doesn't
22:46<nr0q_radio>I got mine 2nd hand
22:46<nr0q_radio>so idk how old my particular one actually is
22:46<twb>nr0q_radio: you can yank the disks and put them in something else, but that'll cost US$200 to US$800
22:46<earendel_>twb: will need to prove it then. walk the walk.
22:46<earendel_>and im already late to my date with sandra.
22:47<earendel_>i have an idea. you will do it. please
22:47<nr0q_radio>yeah, if I buy a new Nas, it'd be a Synology
22:48<twb>earendel_: sorry, I don't understand.
22:51<earendel_>o that is by design. nah all good. i was just spinning out
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23:10<earendel_>it's not necessary to chose the same root of trust.
23:10<cocomac>Hello! I installed Debian [in a VM], and then created a clone of it (so a second VM that had the same config). But now both VMs have the same IP, which is causing issues. Doing sudo dhclient -r && sudo dhclient didn't fix it. How do I force the copy to get a different IP? I'm using DHCP
23:11<earendel_>the hardware is delivered with some preinstalled keys, which you can use of modify or call your aunt polly to be it.
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23:12<somiaj>cocomac: did the host give the virtual interfaces different mac address?
23:12<somiaj>or are the mac address the same on both vms?
23:13<wifid>where is debian repo? isn't linked from places I would expect to find it online
23:13<earendel_>of course if your root of trust or some trusted author stops signing the software .. it may have reasons.
23:14<earendel_>while others sign everything for an ad placement.
23:14<somiaj>wifid: what do you mean debian repo?
23:15<cocomac>@somiaj I have no idea. The two VMs are exact clones of each other
23:15<wifid>somiaj: I want to download the .deb file of bullseye nonfree nonfree firmware looking in ..
23:15<cocomac>How do I get the MAC address?
23:15<somiaj>wifid: in that case, you can find packages and links on
23:15<somiaj>cocomac: 'ip a' will show it
23:15<earendel_>so its like a technicallu applicable solution, which defines another interesting social or cosmological problem.
23:15<wifid>somiaj: but I want to also find the checksums file thing, to confirm cryptographically if the deb is signed
23:16<somiaj>wifid: You have to use apt for that afiak. Do you have another debian machine with an internet connection?
23:16<wifid>somiaj: yea but on another deb (10)
23:16<wifid>somiaj: why I have to, it should be easy format and easy URL
23:17<somiaj>wifid: you could temporarly add bullseye sources to that deb 10 format, then apt --download-only install package
23:17<somiaj>then remove the source so you don't accidently upgrade
23:17<cocomac>@somiaj they have different MACs, but rebooting them both fixed it.
23:17<Sqrt{Not}>wifid, you should consider installing from one of the unofficial non-free installer images, which have published crypto hashes on the same web page you download them from. Thus you have the firmware, and the signatures.
23:18<wifid>Sqrt{Not}: it sounds more secure to me to use official installer
23:19<Sqrt{Not}>its "unofficial" only because it contains non-free firmware. comes from the same place and the same people
23:19<Sqrt{Not}>if you don't need the wifi firmware, you don't need the non-free sources
23:19<somiaj>cocomac: Well good, not quite sure what the issue was. Leases are often attached to a macaddress and dpch servers use mac address to assign ips.
23:20<Sqrt{Not}>wifid, using wifi at all is not very secure
23:20<awal1>how to force the use of gtk2 for all apps?
23:21<somiaj>awal1: you can't, if an app isn't complied to use gtk2 it can't. Most modern apps only support gtk3
23:21<somiaj>also plenty of apps don't use gtk at all, some use qt, some use other widgit sets.
23:21<awal1>somiaj, ok. thanks
23:22<awal1>i use almost gtk based
23:22<wifid>Sqrt{Not}: sure, thats why I use https vpn or tor
23:23<Sqrt{Not}>wifid, very fancy and secure, but if your last 100 meters is wifi, then it's not secure after all
23:23<wifid>where is the deb file with firmware that I see inside
23:23<wifid>Sqrt{Not}: no, why? end to end secured connections do not care if anyone can listen or modify any part of packets route
23:24<nr0q_radio>send it over Morse code encrypted with enigma machines
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23:24<wifid>nr0q_radio: enigma has exploit in nonuniform encryption by never encrypting to the same letter as unencrypted one
23:24<Sqrt{Not}>wifid, OK, yeah
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23:25<sney>wifid: the firmware debian packages are separated by purpose. you get a bunch of them via the 'firmware-linux-nonfree' metapackage, but there are more, e.g. firmware-realtek
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23:25<somiaj>awal1: yea, gtk is quite popular, though most things have moved to gtk3, only some old aps still use gtk2
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23:26<r4fkramer>Hi all. I installed another System (Rocky Linux) in an unallocated space, after having previously installed Debian Bullseye 11.1.
23:26<r4fkramer>But last OS Grub doesn't list the option of I choose to boot an OS, although I've already confirmed via cfdisk, that the debian installation is fully preserved (but inaccessible to boot).
23:26<r4fkramer>I did this same installation on another occasion; but since I installed Rocky Linux first and then Debian, Debian Grub perfectly recognized and listed the option to boot the chosen OS, something I can't get right now.
23:26<r4fkramer>Please, how to proceed in this case?
23:27<somiaj>!firmware images
23:27<dpkg>There are <live> system and <netinst> and DVD images containing non-free Debian <firmware> packages available from The images are "unofficial" because "official Debian" includes only 100% free software, but otherwise identical to the normal installer images and prepared by the same Debian Developers. See <check iso>, <old firmware images>.
23:27<somiaj>wifid: ^^
23:27<awal1>somiaj, i prefer gtk2 but no choice now, almost everything is 3...
23:27<wifid>sney: ok it was inside how was I supposed to find it other than by guessing?
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23:28<sney>that directory appears to have all of them
23:28<wifid>somiaj: so they are as secure and all as other installs (besides the fact one will be probably using non-free firmware then) right? (cool, though this time I might as well finish with current approach anyway)
23:28<somiaj>r4fkramer: os-prober is a tool that can automate adding additonal boot options to GRUB, though it is slowly being turned off by default due to security concerns.
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23:28<Sqrt{Not}>wifid, the robot will tell you the package if you ask it an actual file name, like the actual firmware blob filename
23:28<wifid>sney: where to find file (or chain of files) confirming cryp-cally that debian release master gpg signed that this is the correct deb file?
23:29<somiaj>wifid: Most trust wifi firmawre, since it comes from the chipset maufactures. But they are closed blobs (hence why debian puts them in non-free). But with security there is always some level of trust.
23:29<r4fkramer>Fine somiaj, so I need to have this package in .rpm format, for I think everything shall be done through Rocky Linux, not Debian.
23:29<sney>that would be under dists on the mirror, the mirrors are not really meant to be browsed manually
23:30<awal1>r4fkramer, you need to add GRUB_DISABLE_OS_PROBER=false to your /etc/default/grub file
23:30<somiaj>r4fkramer: or grab a debian live image, and use it with your debian install in a chroot to reinstall grub and use debian as the grub controler.
23:30<awal1>you may need ^ :)
23:30<somiaj>awal1: that won't be needed until bookworm. As for Rocky linux we shouldn't give random advise for that os.
23:30<wifid>is there then a way to temporarily switch apt from deb10 to deb11 and have it download + check signature on that one deb file? without messing my current deb10 installation?
23:31<r4fkramer>Ok somiaj
23:31<awal1>ah, his sentence are so long , i readed it fastly :D
23:31<somiaj>wifid: I already gave you this option, add bullseye sources, apt update, apt install --download-only package, remove sources, apt update
23:31<sney>you can also get the firmware blobs from upstream, there is a signature link next to the download link, and the tarball has an install script in it - these files are closed source anyway so they are unmodified by debian
23:31<r4fkramer>Please, awal1, only this setting will fix this issue ?
23:31<wifid>somiaj: is there a way to do that as a user, not as root, btw?
23:31<somiaj>r4fkramer: we can't really support Rocky linux and how it works to dual boot with debian. Though it probably also has os-prober or something simlar.
23:32<somiaj>wifid: no
23:32<r4fkramer>yes, somiaj, I understand.
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23:32<r4fkramer>Anyway, I hope your suggestion or awal1 can fix this issue.
23:32<r4fkramer>Thank you very much you two, for Attention and Great Support !
23:33<earendel_>wifid> usually you get one joining one of the naked computing sessions (tshirt) or pyjama parties. (wherever you want it)
23:33<earendel_>in winter*
23:34<awal1>r4fkramer, as somiaj said , here support is for debian only. we/I have no idea what is Rocky linux. and somiaj is right, Bullseye is not concerned by grub changes , GRUB_DISABLE_OS_PROBER=false, not needed. Rocky, I have no clue, sorry
23:34<dpkg>To reinstall <GRUB> boot to your Debian install disk/live CD, switch to the other console (Alt-F2), mount your root filesystem (mount -t ext4 /dev/whatever /target ; mount --bind /dev /target/dev ; mount -t proc none /target/proc ; mount -t sysfs none /target/sys), chroot into it (chroot /target), run "mount /boot/efi" on EFI and "update-grub && grub-install /dev/whatever". See also <rescue mode>, <dual boot guide>, <supergrub>.
23:34<somiaj>r4fkramer: ^^ you can try that
23:35<sney>rocky is a redhat derivative and totally unrelated to debian
23:36<dselect>Rocky Linux is community-maintained distribution based on Red Hat Enterprise Linux. For IRC support, join #rockylinux on
23:37<r4fkramer>awal1, so GRUB_DISABLE_OS_PROBER=false will not be useful for this case.... ?
23:37<Sqrt{Not}>??? is that a good fqdn for libera?
23:37<awal1>r4fkramer, i guess your Rocky has upgraded including Grub file changes. you machine is may be booted with Rocky grub with GRUB_DISABLE_OS_PROBER=true . You may investigate your Rocky changes
23:38<r4fkramer>FIne awal1, I'll try to apply any change in its grub. Thank you very much for hints !
23:38<r4fkramer>Thank you very much for hint, somiaj:)
23:39<Sqrt{Not}>no, apparently not, timed out from here.
23:39<somiaj>isn't it just
23:39<Sqrt{Not}>dpkg, rockylinux =~ s/
23:39<dpkg>Sqrt{Not}: OK
23:39<awal1>r4fkramer, when you have dualboot, if one the the OS's do a grub update, that grub will be used
23:39<awal1>one of the ^
23:40<r4fkramer>Fine awal1, thanks for information.
23:40<r4fkramer>Bye all !
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23:43<nr0q_radio>I'm connected to here
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23:48<awal1>in Arch wiki i see that one can force the use of a given theme for a given app temporally or permanently. example " GTK_THEME=Adwaita:dark gnome-calculator " ( )
23:48<awal1>but i don't find info about how to do that on debian
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23:49<somiaj>enviorment variables should work in other distros just fine
23:49<somiaj>since this would be part of gtk.
23:50<somiaj>Though why are you wanting to change a theme for a single app vs all apps?
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23:52<awal1>i use breeze gtk theme and i find it very good. but I want a different theme for a few apps, like chromium
23:52<awal1>i don't like to use 3d party stuff
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23:52<somiaj>I think chromium you can choose themes form its settings
23:53<awal1>yeah, but just classic and the system one if i remember good
23:53<somiaj>you can actually download chromium themes as well
23:53<awal1>right, but i conseder them 3d party stuff
23:54<awal1>i will look at environment variables
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23:56<Sqrt{Not}>awal1, when you insert that "GTK_THEME=Adwaita:dark" you are setting an environment variable $GTK_THEME
23:56<wifid>where are the .deb files after apt install --download-only? I want to get the .deb files
23:56<somiaj>in /var/cache/apt/archives
23:57<jmcnaught>wifid: why not just use "apt download packagename" which downloads the .deb to the current directory and does not require root?
23:57<somiaj>jmcnaught: because I forgot about that option and didn't metion it...
23:57<awal1>Sqrt{Not}, ok :D i never played with environment variables stuff. i'm clueless about it. i have read about all that
23:58<somiaj>awal1: You have never used $PATH or other enivorment variables? Anyways, these are just variables in your shell that can affect porgrams that are ran from that shell
---Logclosed Fri Dec 17 00:00:16 2021