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#linode IRC Logs for 2006-09-20

---Logopened Wed Sep 20 00:00:20 2006
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06:13<@linbot>New news from forums: We sell Cheap Viagra ($1.41) and Cialis ($2.65) in General Discussion <>
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06:48<encode>oh wonderful - cos i need cheap viagra
06:50<brocktice>encode, what's that? Is it anything like V 1 @g rA or C1al1s?
06:50<brocktice>because I've heard of those. You know... in my personal internets.
06:52<encode>brocktice: i dont know - those products get fed to my spam filter - it seems to be happy with those products
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10:21<neale>did host50 hiccup about 7 hours ago?
10:27<neale>I ask because my node has a 7-hour uptime and I don't see anything about a shutdown in logview, so I'm wondering if it's something I've screwed up in my node, or if it's the host.
10:30<linbot>New news from forums: Credit Card Authentication for Account Activation in Sales Questions and Answers <>
10:42|-|kevinross [] has joined #linode
10:42<kevinross>anyone have a moment to answer a question about how real (local) resources translate into VDS resources?
10:45<npmr>i doubt that's the question you came here to ask
10:46<kevinross>just checking to see if anyone was out there
10:47<kevinross>if i have a local server that runs apps comfortably with 2gb ram, is that the same on a VDS
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10:48<npmr>if your VDS has 2gb RAM, then yes
10:49<kevinross>so it is one to one and i need to find a VDS with the same specs, though the cpu specs can be quite less if i have a low load factor?
10:50<npmr>well, there are two options really
10:50<npmr>one, you can find a VDS with similar specs for memory, i/o capacity, and Ccpu
10:51<npmr>or you can find out what's adequate for your application in all three of those things and get that instead
10:51<npmr>it's also pretty likely that you can reduce your application's requirements, possibly by quite a bit
10:52<npmr>but as far as ram goes, having 200MB (e.g. a linode 200) is just like having 200MB of ram in a real machine
10:52<npmr>the memory manager behaves just the same
10:52<kevinross>i run oracle xe, activemq, tomcat 5.5, plus serve static resources, so it is memory dependent
10:53<kevinross>ok, thanks for your help
10:53<npmr>i think you'll find that you can tune all of those things down, at which point i/o is your bottleneck
10:53<tierra>I wouldn't be looking at a VDS/VPS for that, I'd go full dedicated at that point
10:54<kevinross>that was my thoughts, but i have a small business so I'm trying to keep costs down where possible, but it seems like full dedicated is the prudent solution
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10:56<npmr>i'm so glad he didn't muck up a host trying
10:57<npmr>there's only 1 150 available anyway
10:58<npmr>--- ping statistics ---
10:58<npmr>2 packets transmitted, 2 packets received, 0% packet loss
10:58<npmr>--- ping statistics ---
10:58<npmr>4 packets transmitted, 0 packets received, 100% packet loss
10:58<npmr>60 hosts now
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12:10<FireSlash>Wow. Nice. Dictionary attack on a USER ACCOUNT via ftp.
12:10<Battousai>nothin like beating users with large books
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12:10<neale>ls: .: file not found
12:11<neale>any thoughts on tumgreyspf from the peanut gallery?
12:12<FireSlash>I'm now looking through the phishing site's code, out of the interest of science; find out where the data was going
12:13<FireSlash>mail("", $subj, $msg, $from);
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13:01<npmr>neale, spf makes problems
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13:44<taupehat>npmr: how so
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13:48<npmr>people have addresses that forward mail to another address
13:49<npmr>for example, i have shell accounts on various servers that all contain a .forward file
13:49<npmr>let's say you publish spf records for your domain
13:50<npmr>and let's say i check spf records on my server where all this mail gets forwarded
13:50<npmr>and then you mail me at one of my forwarding addresses
13:50<npmr>your mail gets set from your server to the middleman server, the one with my account containing a .forward file
13:51<npmr>that server accepts the message because it's sent to a valid address
13:51<npmr>then it tries to forward the message
13:51<npmr>let's look at two possible scenarios
13:51<npmr>in scenario #1, the middleman server does not rewrite the envelope sender
13:51<npmr>in scenario #2, it does rewrite to the address of my forwarding account
13:52<npmr>scenario #1: middleman server connects to my server to deliver the forwarded message
13:52<npmr>my server looks up the spf record for the envelope sender domain, which is your domain
13:53<npmr>my server then rejects the message because the middleman server is not on the permitted list
13:53<npmr>scenario #2, the middleman server connects to my server to deliver the forwarded message using my forwarding adderss as the new envelope sender
13:54<npmr>my server looks up the spf record for the middleman domain, which may or may not exist, and will check out as ok if it does
13:54<npmr>my server's about to accept the message, but then...
13:54<npmr>any one of a number of transient problems occurs
13:54<npmr>let's say i'm out of disk space
13:55<npmr>my server rejects the message and says to try later
13:55<npmr>which the middleman server does, but i'm still out of disk space
13:55<npmr>this happens for a few days and the middleman server gives up
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13:55<npmr>and the middleman server sends a bounce message to the envelope sender
13:56<npmr>which is the forwarding address, which gets forwarded to my server, which is still out of disk space
13:56<npmr>ad infinitum
13:56<npmr>so, in an spf-checking world, there is no valid forwarding behavior
13:57<npmr>rewriting the envelope sender creates mail loops during any prolonged transient failure mode
13:57<npmr>not rewriting the envelope sender causes the forwarded mail to be rejected ex facie
13:59|-|taupehat [] has joined #linode
13:59<npmr>hi taupehat
13:59<npmr>you got all that from the chan log?
14:00<taupehat>looks like my node just bounced
14:01<taupehat>I recall asking you what you don't like about spf
14:01<npmr>well, there's about 30 lines of monologue behind me
14:01<npmr>you want the punch line?
14:01<taupehat>pastebin it?
14:02<npmr><npmr> so, in an spf-checking world, there is no valid forwarding behavior
14:02<npmr><npmr> rewriting the envelope sender creates mail loops during any prolonged transient failure mode
14:02<erikh>taupehat: reader's digest version: it screws up mail forwarding
14:02<npmr><npmr> not rewriting the envelope sender causes the forwarded mail to be rejected ex facie
14:02<erikh>taupehat: I know you're smart enough to put together the rest of it.
14:02<taupehat>I'm dumb =]
14:03<erikh>you get your new job?
14:03<taupehat>starting on the 16th
14:06<taupehat>npmr: how about situation 3 (which is currently how things work): I've got a mail client that checks SPF status of inbound messages, and uses such information to train the Bayes filter onboard over time?
14:06<taupehat>yes, it's moving the problem down to the client end
14:06<taupehat>but there's no reason not to use SA or similar on the server to perform essentially the same function
14:06<npmr>spf as bayes coefficient.... interesting
14:07<npmr>well, yes
14:07<taupehat>rather than blatant whitelist/blacklist of spf, use it as part of the calculation
14:07<npmr>SA is a resource hog
14:07<npmr>that's the reason not to use it
14:07<taupehat>yeah SA sure is
14:07<taupehat>that's why I use my compy/386 here to do the bayes crunching
14:07<taupehat>caker: 56 is still dogging, man
14:08<npmr>what spf checker do you use?
14:09<taupehat>t-bird extension
14:09<npmr>what's its backend?
14:09<npmr>or is it fully integrated?
14:09<taupehat>I think it's just a simple records check
14:09<erikh>it's just DNS, I would /hope/ to god it doesn't need a specific backend
14:10<taupehat>it's a 130kb extension
14:10<npmr>let me rephrase...
14:10<taupehat>probably doesn't need a backend
14:10<npmr>does the extension do all of the dns checking, or does it run some command line utility (a backend) to do it?
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14:11<taupehat>I'll have to rip it apart to see
14:11<taupehat>given the size, it probably just calls the host function for whatever OS it finds itself running on
14:12<npmr>right.... does its own record checking
14:14<taupehat>here we go
14:15<taupehat>it's got its own DNS library
14:15<taupehat>DNS LIBRARY IN JAVASCRIPT * * Copyright 2005 Joshua Tauberer <>
14:16<taupehat>but that's just calling DNS from the OS
14:17<npmr>right but it's only using that to fetch the TXT record, right?
14:17<npmr>all of the SPF parsing and evaluation is occurring in the extension?
14:17<taupehat>still reading
14:17<taupehat>by the way
14:17<npmr>its not farmed out to some tool that you could use in (for example) a procmail recipe?
14:18<taupehat>that paste, the switch is between lines 60 and 75
14:19<taupehat>no, it' sall in the javascript file right there
14:19<taupehat>really simple code, though
14:19<taupehat>you could probably adapt it
14:19<taupehat>look at line 179 and start down
14:20[~]taupehat doesn't grok procmail recipes
14:20<npmr>[inkblot@dorothy:~]$ wc -l .procmailrc
14:20<npmr>82 .procmailrc
14:21<npmr>i prefer my filtering to be mail reader agnostic
14:21<taupehat>most of the length of that js is whitespace and the kludginess of javascript
14:22<taupehat>really it comes down to set two values and compare them
14:22<npmr>that javascript code does not do any spf processing at all
14:22<taupehat>then do stuff
14:22<npmr>it doesn't even contain the strings "SPF" or "spf"
14:23<taupehat>this is true
14:23<npmr>it is strictly a DNS library
14:23<taupehat>hang on
14:23<taupehat>here's the spf
14:24<npmr>ok, well, it's all implemented in situ, so it's useless to me anyway
14:24<npmr>thanks for the info
14:26<taupehat>now I'm wondering if I want to do some work on my FF extension again
14:27<neale>how funny, I'm wondering the same thing.
14:28<taupehat>which one is yours?
14:28<neale>no, I was wondering if you wanted to do some work on your FF extension again.
14:29<npmr>neale, now that flynn's got a reverse dns, is there really any reason for us not to use reject_unknown_client anymore?
14:29<neale>who's we, movealong?
14:30<npmr><-- inkblot
14:30<neale>anyway, I can't think of one
14:30<npmr>i couldn't either
14:30<neale>why are you asking me, though?
14:31<taupehat>neale: what's your gig at los alamos?
14:31<npmr>i started using it recently, and in conjunction with postgrey, i get about ten spams a day that make it as far as my bayesian filter
14:31<npmr>and then they're all caught by the filter
14:31<taupehat>npmr: postgrey++
14:31<taupehat>I love it.
14:31<neale>I actually just uninstalled postgrey
14:31<npmr>want to see some hot postgrey on spam action?
14:31<neale>it would start up, read something called __01.db, and spin
14:32<neale>npmr: oh so you're asking me as someone who might have had negative experiences with it
14:32<neale>the answer is no, it's totally great
14:32<taupehat>looks like bdb killed you
14:32<taupehat>as usually
14:32<neale>smtpd_recipient_restrictions = permit_mynetworks
14:32<neale> permit_sasl_authenticated
14:32<neale> reject_unauth_destination
14:32<neale> check_recipient_access hash:/etc/postfix/recipients
14:32<neale> check_policy_service unix:private/tumgreyspf
14:32[~]taupehat mutters unkind things about bdb
14:33<neale>taupehat: I'm pretty sure it's something else
14:33<npmr>the backported postgrey has an initscript that uses the same db-1.4_recover trick as the openldap initscript
14:33<neale>reject_non_fqdn_hostname is good too
14:33<neale>that one probably knocks out half of the spam attempts
14:33<npmr>and reject_invalid_hostname
14:34<npmr>also, a check_helo_access which rejects clients who are using your system's name
14:34<npmr>(in vain)
14:34<taupehat>it works well
14:34<taupehat> REJECT Suck a nut, spammer. Poshol von!
14:34<taupehat> REJECT Suck a nut, spammer. Poshol von!
14:34<taupehat> REJECT Hey RoadRunner, fix your backscatter-spamming ser
14:34<taupehat>ver, you fucking morons.
14:34<taupehat>localhost.localdomain REJECT Suck a nut, spammer. Poshol von!
14:34<taupehat> REJECT Suck a nut, spammer. Poshol von!
14:35<taupehat>that's my helo_access
14:35<neale>I'm not super happy with tumgreyspf either, you guys know of any other options that don't require an rDBMS?
14:35<npmr>also, 192.168 REJECT you're not even on the internet!
14:36<neale>I just use reject_unknown_sender_domain
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14:36<neale>oh wait I don't know what I'm talking about, nevermind
14:36<taupehat>actually, I've got a whole list of recipient restrictions
14:36<SpaceHob1> <-- conspiracy HO!
14:36<taupehat>so neale you never did answer my question re: lanl
14:36<neale>I might have to write my own greylist thingy
14:37<neale>taupehat: you're right
14:37<taupehat>grouch =P
14:39|-|SpaceHobo [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:39[~]taupehat is nosy, and also pretty good typing a name into a search box anyhow
14:40<npmr>neale, acid-spitting robots with lasers, right?
14:40<taupehat>almost as interesting from what I can gather
14:40<neale>npmr: we're kind of more into base-spitting robots these days
14:40<neale>you don't notice it until it's too late
14:40<taupehat>neale: what about the frikkin' sharks?
14:41<neale>I'm sure they're all very happy as they frik.
14:46<neale>it's much more interesting if I pretend I can't tell you what I do at work
14:46<neale>for both of us
14:46<taupehat>and yet your name is all over the site =]
14:46<taupehat>along with a photo
14:46<neale>yes but it doesn't tell you what I do
14:47<neale>wait, what site
14:47<neale>it's all over a lot of sites
14:47<taupehat>there's a pdf with a photo of you with a team at lanl
14:47<taupehat>doing interesting work with NPUs
14:47<neale>oh, that.
14:47<taupehat>well, you're not working in that photo
14:48<taupehat>although getting dragged out of my office to pose for a publicity photo would certainly be among the less-desireable tasks I could imagine having to face at work
14:49<neale>I got a $50 gift certificate as compensation
14:49<taupehat>to somewhere nice?
14:49<neale>which is 40 miles away
14:49<neale>and I don't have a car
14:49<taupehat>oh haha
14:50<taupehat>I guess you could barter it for something more useful =]
14:50<taupehat>such as the use of someone's car to go to lowe's
14:50<neale>so that's pretty lame stuff I'm listed as doing on the search page
14:51<neale>it was all junk I was asked to do by someone else, actually
14:51<taupehat>you reckon? To my mind, data visualization tools like that are kind of a step toward working AI, as the modeling that has to take place begins to approach reasoning...
14:51<neale>hey my hair looks pretty good in that photo
14:52<neale>that's my bike right behind me
14:52<taupehat>you're the guy with curly hair I hope
14:52<neale>uh, I guess it sort of looks curly there
15:06<efudd>!errno 9
15:06<linbot>efudd: EBADF (#9): Bad file descriptor
15:21<neale>tumgreyspf seems to be pretty decent
15:21<linbot>New news from forums: Loosing weight has never been so easy! Minus 20 pounds in on in General Discussion <>
15:21<neale>OH BOY!
15:21<neale>I would LOVE to weight minus 20 pounds!
15:21<brocktice>are the forums actually being spammed, or is this a running joke?
15:21<taupehat>forums spam!
15:21<neale>I could finally realize my boyhood dreams of being in outer space.
15:21<taupehat>that's the same bullshit that tried to get on my blog
15:22<taupehat>they're certainly real spams
15:22|-|jblack [] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal]
15:22<brocktice>oh, that's too bad :(
15:22<neale>what would constitute a "fake spam"?
15:22<taupehat>a prank
15:22<taupehat>there's a viagra spam there too
15:23<brocktice>Well, I haven't looked at the actual entries, so I thought maybe it was a satirical thread or something
15:23<neale>I remember one time I composed this message and sent it to crackmonkey
15:23<neale>it had like, 80 trigger strings for spamassassin
15:23<neale>I think it got a score of like 4000
15:23|-|SpaceHob1 changed nick to SpaceHobo
15:30<brocktice>"You were sent this message because you asked to be removed from requests
15:30<brocktice>to be taken off our mailing list. If you did not opt in and you wish to
15:30<brocktice>remove yourself, you have our pity. If you do not want to receive
15:30<brocktice>emails in the future, unplug your computer. To be removed, please hop
15:30<brocktice>up and down in anger."
15:30<brocktice>you just added that for kicks, eh?
15:31<neale>I actually wrote the whole thing by hand
15:31<taupehat>that's hilarious
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15:33<linbot>New news from forums: Hacked - Have info on the culprit... in General Discussion <>
15:39<linbot>New news from forums: host initiated restart still not working on 56 in Xen Public Beta <>
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16:27<linbot>New news from wiki: What Do You Use Linode For? <>
16:37<JDM>io_count=2039885 io_rate=0 io_tokens=400000 token_refill=512 token_max=400000
16:38<JDM>is that a bug in io_tokens?
16:38<JDM>ignore that
16:38[~]JDM just confused io_count with io_tokens
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16:42<kvandivo>but then you looked at and it all became clear
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17:28<linbot>New news from forums: [ Poll ] Mortgage refinancing, online trading, trading software. in General Discussion <>
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17:29<taupehat>I really hope caker or mikegrb is working on the spam issue...
17:29<taupehat>seems like it could hardly be automated
17:30<taupehat>with the spammer making polls!
17:30<OvrLrd-Q>that can be automated
17:30<taupehat>but there seems to be a diversity of spams here that makes me wonder if it is done by hand by someone vindictive
17:30<OvrLrd-Q>no, it can
17:31<OvrLrd-Q>but yes i'd agree this is prolly by hand
17:32<OvrLrd-Q>how long should I let a boot job sit in my queue before I submit a ticket?
17:32<taupehat>12 seconds =P
17:44<npmr>a few minutes, tops
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19:50<taupehat>my soon-to-be former job =]
19:51<internat>leaving for soemthign better?
19:52<taupehat>oy aye
19:52<taupehat>as in "yes, indeed"
20:14<internat>so as a stupid question how many people here run uml type setups at home as testing platforms?
20:32|-|caffeinated [] has joined #linode
20:33<caffeinated>anybody at linode CIC doing anything about that phpBB spam? uptime puns aside?
20:39<caffeinated>milspeak: combat information center
20:41<internat>hms i need to work out how to set up a vserver at home that is almost identical to my linode
21:01<taupehat>caffeinated input control
21:03<caffeinated>that too.
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22:18<OvrLrd-Q>/dev/mem: mmap: Bad address
22:18<OvrLrd-Q>is that a bad thing to see when apt-get upgrading?
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22:31<encode>taupehat: found a new job have you?
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---Logclosed Thu Sep 21 00:00:11 2006