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#linode IRC Logs for 2019-12-18

---Logopened Wed Dec 18 00:00:05 2019
---Daychanged Wed Dec 18 2019
00:00<chesty>Peng, is that you in the firefox channel?
00:05<Peng_>chesty: Short answer: yes
00:05<Peng_>Long answer: some kind of joke, but none are coming to me right now
00:10<FluffyFoxeh>There's a Firefox channel? Where?
00:13<nate>freenode, and originally mozilla network but I think they're shutting that down?
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00:15<FluffyFoxeh>yeah they are :/
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07:24<baudster>Hello, we issued a support ticket (13148528) and was hoping if someone can check please.
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07:31<@pwoods>baudster: looks like we got to that ticket. Let us know if you have any other questions.
07:32<baudster>jbrilliant support as per usual
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09:11<linbot>New news from community: Help, Decreased email storage <>
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09:51<kharlan>new ip pls
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10:10<dubidub>So, Linode is getting new terms. This bit makes me curious: "You will immediately notify us in the event your use of any Service is for a non-business purpose". May we not use the service on a hobby basis?
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10:21<linbot>New news from community: How do I check logs for a specific item? <>
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10:22<@jackley>hi dubidub! you can continue to use your Linode services as you always have. that section is related to compliance needs, which sometimes requires that we distinguish between business and non-business uses
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10:31<linbot>New news from community: Can I install an OS capable of running Android apps on Linode? <>
10:35<chesty>how do you distinguish when services are used for both personal and business uses?
10:37<dubidub>WHat is the definition of non-business purpose in this context?
10:38<dubidub>Does those who use the service for a non-business purpose and notify risk termination?
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10:53<linbot>New news from blog: <> || <>
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11:53<cews>Real link -
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12:41<linbot>New news from community: django email not sending <>
12:43<@jackley>dubidub: nope, no risk of termination
12:45<@mcintosh>!point jackley
12:45<linbot>mcintosh: Point given to jackley. (7)
12:49<@jackley>chesty: dubidub: re: business use: the simplest distinction is that "business", to us, is in service of business activities, like direct or indirect resale of Linode services, the use of services in connection to your professional needs, hosting commerical interactions or enterprises, etc.
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12:51<@jackley>chesty: dubidub: ultimately, you're in the best position to judge this and we trust your judgement
12:51<@jackley>just to be very clear – there is *no* risk of termination around this
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13:45<cews>It's just clarification to prevent overlap to 'partner' program
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14:02<linbot>New news from community: One Click Wordpress Site showing IP address instead of domain name <>
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15:22<linbot>New news from community: Is that possible to install multiple PHP version in single linode? (Ubuntu) <>
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17:53<nyancat>is there something recently changed with the website?
17:53<millisa> they rolled out a new one about a month or so ago. new legal/tos stuff went up in the last few days
17:53<nyancat>i can login to perfectly fine but attempting to browse to gives me an error
17:53<nyancat>"Peer’s Certificate issuer is not recognized."
17:54<millisa>loads ok for me. shows a cloudflare cert good till 9-oct-2020
17:59<millisa>oh. www.linode points to cloudflare, no-www points to some of linode's balancers
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18:05<ska>Instead of mulitple upgrades for my server I'd like to re-create it without losing its static IP. How does one do that?
18:05<millisa>you can clone a linode, you can restore a linode from a linode back, you can swap a linode's ipv4 addresses.
18:05<millisa>some combo of those?
18:25<ska>I guess there is a rebuild option there.
18:25<ska>I'm not worried about data.
18:26<millisa>oh, if you dont care about keeping anything, you can just blow away the disk and redeploy. if you don't actually remove the linode, you keep your ip
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18:46<chesty>jackley, I mean I use linode services for both business and personal use and I've notified linode of that already. I'm just curious how that is handled. if it was 100% personal use or 100% business use then it's easy. It doesn't really matter, I'm not suspicious or concerned, it was just curiosity but I don't really need to know.
18:51<LouWestin>Chesty: I presume it’s some legal reason for wording it the way they did?
18:54<@mcintosh>nyancat: that sounds weird - it should force you to the www version (i can't reproduce what you're referring to, but millisa's assessment is accurate, however the cert there is also valid)
18:54<@mcintosh>nyancat: here's what i see when I curl without www, fwiw ->
18:59<wraeth>With the new TOS/MSA, how are we to notify for personal use? Just an email to support@?
19:14<FluffyFoxeh>I'm writing a ticket asking about that point of the new ToS, to satisfy that curiosity
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19:27<wraeth>Ah nice. :)
19:43<linbot>New news from community: rDNS for mail-only server <>
19:51<nate>You'd think for as much as it was talked about in here already someone would have answered it here lol
19:52<@mcintosh>wraeth: we're not currently requiring you actively reach out
19:53<wraeth>mcintosh: Aha. I guess that explains the "Effective Date: 01 January 2020" that I only just now saw...
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20:39<FluffyFoxeh>Were they sending e-mails to notify about the new ToS? I didn't get one (yet)
20:39<nate>I literally just got one, I think they really should have double checked them though before finalizing this stuff
20:39<FluffyFoxeh>were there errors?
20:40<nate>There are enough questionable things at minimum, but I believe someone earlier today was reading off several effective errors/mistakes as well lol
20:41<wraeth>I haven't actually got one yet.
20:41<FluffyFoxeh>Ah, sounds like they're still being sent
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22:00<William>Hello. I have been using Linode for a few years now and as such my VPS is grandfathered in for e-mail capabilities. If I were to create a new Linode with the same account would it be grandfathered in or would I have to go through the steps to get it whitelisted?
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22:01<William>Also if I were to create a new Linode in the same datacenter would it likely be installed on a newer server or would it favor the older E5-2680 v3 server my current Linode is operating on?
22:02<dww>Hello, I am a new person on this channel.
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22:03<dww>Is it possible and reasonable to install Mattermost in a Docker container on a the lowest priced VM Linode has. This would be for a new small not for profit organization with probably at most 20 persons using this install of Mattermost.
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22:06<Peng_>William: To partly answer your last question, I believe the algorithm doesn't favor using the same model CPU as your existing Linode(s). You could get the same model, an older model, or a newer model. I don't know what the actual factors are.
22:08<Hydroxide>hey linode ... am I correctly understanding that the new terms are adding an arbitration clause (although somehow coupled with continued exclusive jurisdiction of the courts so it may not be enforceable) on only two weeks' notice, during the holiday season, purporting to require even consumer/hobbyist/personal users of Linode who have a dispute to travel to NJ, with no opt-out and no mention of this
22:08<Hydroxide>change in the notice email? not cool if so. I apologize for the sudden alarm if this bad legalese was already in the pre-existing terms of service and not a change.
22:08<William>And if I were to take the gamble, would I need to get the new Linode whitelisted to move my mailserver over, or is the grandfathering account-wide?
22:09<William>Hydroxide I treat unmanaged VPSes as something that could blow up at any time, so I keep a remote backup at all times.
22:10<Hydroxide>William: that is in retrospect something I should have done ... :/ it doesn't help with the email server function though, which is the main thing I use it for (IRC is a secondary use case), since mail server reputation is strongly tied to IP addresses
22:10<William>In fact just initiated a backup right now over rsync/SSH.
22:10<Hydroxide>that's a smart idea.
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22:11<William>The first VPS I ever hosted on went belly up without notice, so I became much more careful afterwards.
22:12<Hydroxide>to be clear to any linode people who respond to my question: I don't have any dispute I want to initiate, but I hate it when companies try to take away my right to access courts, doubly so in a sneaky way like this, especially without a convenient opt-out method that works and provides confirmation.
22:13<Hydroxide>I've never initiated a lawsuit or arbitration with anyone and I hope that never changes... but even so.
22:14<millisa>don't think it having be in NJ changed
22:15<millisa>Old was: "The Terms of Service and the relationship between you and shall be governed by the laws of the State of New Jersey without regard to its conflict of law provisions. You and agree to submit to the personal and exclusive jurisdiction of the courts located within the county of Atlantic, New Jersey."
22:15<Hydroxide>the difference is the arbitration clause/section, if I'm not mistaken.
22:15<millisa>(I grumped about the squeezing it in at year end, too)
22:15<Hydroxide>are the old terms still online somewhere?
22:15<millisa>this looks like what I remember reading:
22:16<Hydroxide>I am leaving the country where I live on vacation in under 48 hours until after january 1, so I don't really have time to react...
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22:17<Hydroxide>even if I do make a backup, my choice on such short notice is to break my email or to keep using the service after january 1. not really a chocie.
22:17<Hydroxide>(or a choice, for that matter. yay typos.)
22:19<Hydroxide>millisa: thanks. that looks right, yes. that jurisdiction provision is mostly a matter of where I would need to hire a lawyer in the event of a dispute. I guess a lawyer can also be used for arbitration, but early costs are often a lot higher, and the arbitration clause has enough drafting problems that any actual invocation of the clause would just add court disputes to the end of whatever judicial or
22:19<Hydroxide>arbitral process results.
22:20<chesty>has anyone compared it to amazon/google/DO TOS? I suspect they will all be similar but I haven't checked myself
22:20<Peng_>No one can live long enough to read Amazon, Google and DO's ToS
22:20<Hydroxide>no, amazon and google don't impose arbitration clauses on end users, although I think DO does, and Google did for employees until recently (employee activism stopped that for people employed past the announcement date)
22:21<millisa>3rd paragraph i think?
22:21<millisa>and most of section 15
22:23<Hydroxide>yup. that arbitration clause is a lot less ambiguous, generally better drafted, customer-friendly, properly coordinated with the governing law/venue clause, and acknowledges the existence of contrary consumer protection laws in some places outside the US. also it's among the reasons I haven't signed up as a DO customer
22:24<millisa>they are definitely taking feedback on the new stuff. they got back to me in ~24 hours on one of my questions on the reseller question. their general counsel dude has been in here a few times.
22:24<Hydroxide>(any pre-dispute binding arbitration clause in a unilateral standard-form contract where the parties have significantly unequal bargaining power is not especially customer-friendly - the "customer-friendly" was just a relative comment in comparing the two clauses)
22:24<Peng_>Hydroxide: Didn't Google do that with carve-outs? IIRC contractors still have arbitration clauses, and employees still do for some types of issues.
22:25<SleePy>wait... We can't use our linodes for personal use or email now?
22:25<chesty>SleePy incorrect
22:26<Hydroxide>Peng_: contractors are not Google employees, and maybe they can impose requirements in their vendor contracts about what the vendor must use in their own employment contracts... I dunno, I'm certainly not going to defend they have been doing lately.
22:26<Hydroxide>*defend much of
22:26<Hydroxide>SleePy: huh? I didn't mean to say or imply anything of the sort
22:26<SleePy>chesty: Oh, I'm just trying to read through irc here
22:26<SleePy>"You will immediately notify us in the event your use of any Service is for a non-business purpose; and "
22:27<chesty>SleePy, yeah, something to do with data collection laws
22:27<Hydroxide>SleePy: it's tough for me to react to _not_ wanting to agree to the new terms of service on such short notice, during the holiday season, is all... and I already use it for personal/non-business email purposes
22:27<SleePy>I think that alone deserves clarification. I wonder how many developers use their nodes for developing projects that are not "business"
22:28<Hydroxide>Peng_: as for Google employee arbitration, I believe they initially did a narrow carve-out and then employee activism made it a more complete change
22:28<Peng_>Do you have to immediately notify Linode for continued use of the service for a non-business purpose?
22:28<wraeth>SleePy: [02:22:19] <@jackley> [...] you can continue to use your Linode services as you always have. that section is related to compliance needs, which sometimes requires that we distinguish between business and non-business uses
22:29<Hydroxide>Peng_: I'm not a lawyer or a linode employee, but the new terms would theoretically require notification at least once reasonably soon after accepting them if the pre-existing use is already non-business
22:29<chesty>SleePy, i agree, my irc use is both personal and business use for exmple. I don't know how that affects things for linode
22:29<SleePy>Ok, so when do we qualify for compliance?
22:30<Hydroxide>btw, the new terms are significantly invalid for consumer/non-business users in Quebec if enough Linode users use Linode from Quebec for them to be unable to avoid jurisdiction here... that includes both the choice of law and venue clauses and the arbitration clause.
22:30<Hydroxide>(I don't know if that precondition is met.)O
22:31<Hydroxide>this reminds me to check if Linode realizes I've been in Quebec since early last year :D
22:31<William>Maybe it was a bit short-sighted to have this form be proxied (and TLS terminated) by Cloudflare -
22:31<chesty>Hydroxide, they cover things like that. you can put anything you want in a tos, doesn't make them legally enforceable.
22:31<William>And same as this form for regular people.
22:32<dwfreed>the Linode website is protected by cloudflare; they can't protect only parts of it
22:32<William>Why did they choose the most crime-friendly CDN?
22:33<William>They have their subdomains bypassing it.
22:33<SleePy>Probably dates back to the dark days of the ddos holiday attacks a few years back
22:33<Hydroxide>chesty: oh I know. honestly even the interpretation of the arbitration clause by the US courts is heavily unpredictable, despite the strong US jurisprudence allowing arbitration, since different sections of the contract simultaneously mandate arbitration and also mandate courts, at least if the dispute is for the Terms of Service and not for the Service itself.
22:33<dwfreed>because cloudflare would not be effective for most other content on Linode subdomains
22:33<dwfreed>other than dropping straight attacks
22:34<dwfreed>which Linode can handle a lot of themselves these days
22:34<dwfreed>the main website is very cacheable
22:34<Peng_>SleePy: No, it's new
22:34<William>I think they changed the main site over when they overhauled it.
22:34<SleePy>Peng_: I thought they where behind CF since then?
22:34<William>Maybe because they made the site a lot heavier, bandwidth-wise?
22:34<Peng_>SleePy: They've used CF for DNS since then, but for HTTPS is new
22:35<William>They put the DNS servers behind them, but I don't use their servers anyway.
22:35<SleePy>Oh your right. If the cert provides truth that was only signed a few days ago
22:36<William>I saw it right after they redid their whole site.
22:36<SleePy>Got to love how https certs can reveal non production fqdns
22:37<William>Wow, the homepage eats up 3.1MB of my bandwidth.
22:37<SleePy>Ahh but they banned me.. hehee.
22:37<dwfreed>more like there's a whitelist that includes the office IP
22:37<William>As for https, I started using wildcard once Let's Encrypt started offering it.
22:37<dwfreed>and basically nothing else
22:37<SleePy>Yep.. Still fun.
22:38<SleePy>although that might be considered against their new tos since...
22:38<Peng_>Mixed feelings about wildcard certs. Increased blast radius and increased opportunities for a MITM to send your traffic to the wrong IP.
22:39<SleePy>Vulnerability Testing. You shall not attempt to probe, scan, penetrate, or test the vulnerability of Linode or any Service, and shall not breach Linode security or authentication measures, whether by passive or intrusive techniques, without Linode's express written consent
22:39<SleePy>So by reading a https cert and seeing a staging name, I may have violated the aup..
22:40<dwfreed>Linode doesn't actually care about that unless your intent is malicious or you don't follow responsible disclosure
22:41<dwfreed>that clause was in the old ToS too, and they didn't care when I reported a vulnerability after I discovered it
22:41<SleePy>Its more of a joke, but how vague that is, they could see that as violating the aup if they wanted to get rid of me.
22:41<dwfreed>and didn't have prior permission to test this vulnerability
22:42<Peng_>Overbroad laws and selective enforcement, a favorite of totalitarian regimes ;)
22:42<millisa>I'm more amused that the verbiage is mostly the same as what was in the old AUP except they changed 'may not' to 'shall not'
22:42<Peng_>Now that the website is on a CDN, they can afford big words ;)
22:42<Hydroxide>dwfreed: yeah almost no contract legalese matters when the parties have a good relationship. that's why I like to mention bad legalese before problems arise, since there's no chance of fixes when parties hate each other.
22:42<millisa>premium letters
22:43<William>And yet they have a HackerOne page.
22:43<Hydroxide>(and remember, I've never actually initiated a dispute of any kind - this is just a matter of principle. well, I've also gotten lawyer-recommended changes to some contract legalese I was presented with, but that's not a dispute per se.)
22:44<dwfreed>Hydroxide: btw, your initial description is very accurate
22:44<SleePy>faa has something to say about may vs shall
22:45<Hydroxide>SleePy: if FAA has any relevance to linode, I may need to nag google flights to add a new airline ;-)
22:46<SleePy>Hydroxide: It was on the first page of google for may not vs shall not
22:46<Hydroxide>yeah I'm just snarking
22:46<Hydroxide>dwfreed: ironically, I _will_ be traveling to NJ later this week... but that's just an overnight airport layover, not an arbitration or a lawsuit :D
22:48<dwfreed>SleePy: ooh, that link means the mandatory arbitrartion clause isn't actually mandatory :DDD
22:48<Peng_>Isn't Linode mostly in PA now anyway?
22:48<Hydroxide>anyway, thanks William for the good backup idea. I am not sure what if anything I'll be able to find the time to do about this between now and january 1, but I'll leave the long-overdue backup running overnight
22:48<dwfreed>because it's "shall" all over the place
22:48<dwfreed>Peng_: hilariously, yes
22:49<William>My current backup server is a Raspberry Pi 3. Currently saving to its SD card but will transition over to an external HDD once I finish 3D printing a good enclosure for everything.
22:50<Hydroxide>dwfreed: that would in general be a risky assumption without reading the specific rulings that the informal FAA article mentions but doesn't cite... courts will enforce "shall" as "must" if that's clearly what was both intended by the drafter and understood by the other party
22:50<Hydroxide>at least in a contract. regulations may be different.
22:50<Hydroxide>(not necessarily different, I dunno)
22:50<William>Just interrupted the rsync so I could clear the apt-get cache.
22:51<Hydroxide>dwfreed: but yeah, a contract that separately mandates each of two different dispute mechanisms as the one exclusive one is not very predictable in court, regardless of shall vs may.
22:51<Hydroxide>(vs must, I guess)
22:51<dwfreed>Hydroxide: agreed
22:51<Hydroxide>especially if shall does not mean the same as must, since exclusive is clearly exclusive
22:52<Hydroxide>(and the word exclusive went with the court)
22:53<William>Windows 10 has native SSH but I still use PuTTY...
22:55<Hydroxide>William: putty is pretty good! though the native ssh probably is too, being openssh and all. since Windows 10 is my VM (and Linux my host), I don't have much excuse to try either these days.
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22:59<William>I don't think I did get that answer on whether creating a new Linode requires going through the whitelisting steps for email when my account predates the rule change.
23:00<millisa>are you talking about that outbound smtp block/
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23:00<millisa>"This change only affects customers who sign up starting today – if you’re already a Linode customer, no changes will be made to any existing or new Linodes."
23:00<millisa> it's in that 3rd paragraph
23:01<William>So new Linodes are grandfathered in as long as I maintain the same account in good standing?
23:01<millisa>that's how I read it
23:01<William>I'm not planning on any immediate changes, but it's always good to be prepared.
23:02<plax>Who can I chat with about getting my account reviewed? I keep getting Cancellation emails.
23:02<millisa>in the docs side: - specifically mentions 'for new accounts created after Nov 5th'
23:03<millisa>plax: probably would have to talk with support; those emails don't say why?
23:04<plax>Just generic emails unfortunately
23:04<plax>Probably lazy admins lol
23:04<William>And where exactly am I supposed to notify Linode that I use the services for non-business usage?
23:05<millisa>William: they said earlier today that they don't need us to do that notification just yet
23:08<millisa>plax: best bet is to write to about it. there's probably something about how you're signing up that's throwing a flag for them (using a vpn during the signup?)
23:08<millisa>oh my
23:16<chesty>I just emailed outserv to let them know I use linode for personal and business use. that's a very 90s website. just missing animated and under construction gifs
23:17<millisa>early 90's even
23:18<William>https optional too.
23:18<millisa>more marquee needed
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23:19<William>Do today's browsers even support marquees anymore or do you have to emulate them in Javascript or CSS?
23:20<nate>they all do
23:22<nate>Though if you really want to be standards-friendly, you would want to use CSS transitions probabvly
23:24<William>...and my backup is done.
23:25<millisa>chrome's marquee support appears to be much smoother than safari
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23:46<linbot>New news from community: New Terms of Service : mandatory arbitration? <>
23:48<Hydroxide>heh, I am not the one who posted that question in the forum! but I'm definitely curious to see how that thread develops.
23:49<millisa>You two should definitely hang out
23:51<Hydroxide>anyway, it means two people independently noticed (unless heath is an alias of someone lurking here)
23:51<Hydroxide>and probably more who didn't mention it
23:52<millisa>I think that's the first new-TOS question that's gone up. The notifications about it might still be going out? the last one I got was about 8 hours ago
23:52<millisa>i don't think I've gotten the email yet for most of the accounts I'd be on
23:53<dwfreed>I've gotten 2 emails, one for OFTC, and one for myself
23:53<millisa>i think i've only gotten notifications for my two oldest accounts for that matter. both were in 'junk', too...
23:53<Hydroxide>yeah, I got one email to my main inbox that doesn't usually receive real linode stuff (only phishing), but I do have a dormant account for which the emails may actually end up there. I examined the email closely (including via less) and it looked legit, so I checked the website directly instead of following the link. the copy to my main linode email arrived later
23:53<dwfreed>the emails were 33 hours apart
23:53<Hydroxide>probably still rolling out
23:54<millisa>the links in the mails were also http://
23:55<Hydroxide>millisa: not in the text/plain part my mutt showed me by default :D
23:56<Hydroxide>one of the rare times ever that the text/plain part of a multipart/alternative email has an advantage over the text/html part :D
23:56<Hydroxide>(other than less clutter and tracking, I mean)
23:57<dwfreed>I have used a 1x1 transparent PNG in an email before
23:58<dwfreed>lot of interesting data just in webserver access log from that
23:58<dwfreed>I think google finally fixed the gmail mobile app to use the image proxies, though
23:58<Hydroxide>people with typical technology usage habits are very trackable, and in a certain sense, so are the exceptions by our weirdly reduced tracking footprint
23:59<Hydroxide>dwfreed: ah so gmail users are no longer trackable?
23:59<Hydroxide>I mean, they still are if the images are at a per-recipient URL
23:59<dwfreed>I mean, you can get the read indication, but I think you won't get their IP address or phone details via user-agent anymore
23:59<Hydroxide>which i think is what most professional marketing companies do, so it is more of a fig leaf to techie interests etc
23:59<Hydroxide>ah fair point
---Logclosed Thu Dec 19 00:00:05 2019